Dumb Blonde Podcast: Joel Madden

Bunnie Xo sits down with Joel Madden of Good Charlotte for a candid conversation about fame, family, and the journey that shaped him. Joel reflects on the band’s early days, growing up in a strict religious household, and how navigating addiction, success, and self-awareness helped him find balance in both his career and personal life. He also opens up about life with Nicole Richie, fatherhood, and the influence Lionel Richie has had as a mentor and father figure. Joel shares the dynamic between him and his twin brother Benji Madden, why mental health and family come before fame, and why he respects the transparency Bunnie Xo and Jelly Roll bring to their own journey. Joel Madden: Website https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWKSc3pUxI3H05fTZM8TNEg Watch Full Episodes & More: YouTube https://www.youtube.com/@Dumbblondepod

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Bunnie XO?

  Is this thing on? My Y2K heart is beating like a glow stick because I am so excited that Joel Madden is finally on the podcast. Thank you for being here.

• 0:21Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 0:22Bunnie XO?

  Dude, I've like, I've wanted you on the podcast forever. And then I saw you started your own podcast and I got jealous because I was like, oh, man, he's never gonna get on the podcast now because he has his own.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  I was always gonna come to this podcast. I've been following it. I really love what you do. And, um, you know, I, uh, I think I love the, I love talking.

• 0:43Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. What made you start a podcast? Because I got to watch a couple of your episodes because so Jacoby just came on the podcast.

• 0:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 0:50Bunnie XO?

  Um, and I watched you guys' episode together and I was just like, you know what? Joel's made for this. Like, I think you really are made for podcasting.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  I think I'm just wired that way.

• 1:00Bunnie XO?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:01Speaker 01

  What I do on the podcast is kind of what I do in real life. Um, I'm more interested in probably like long conversations than short ones, even though little exchanges are nice. Um, I'm a pretty, um, emotionally, um, what's the word? In introspective person.

• 1:28Bunnie XO?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29Speaker 01

  So I like to think a lot.

• 1:30Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:30Speaker 01

  And I like to analyze a lot.

• 1:32Bunnie XO?

  It's the Pisces in you.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  It's very Pisces. Um, and then I either find myself like a Pisces, there's the lower fish, which is like, we're more like in introverted and the upper fish, which is extroverted.

• 1:46Bunnie XO?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47Speaker 01

  And I have both because sometimes I want to talk to someone for a long time.

• 1:50Bunnie XO?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  And then if I feel comfortable and I feel like I can be vulnerable, because it's a vulnerable thing to do, to ask people questions.

• 1:57Bunnie XO?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:58Speaker 01

  Uh, and then I don't do well if I don't feel that way, so I can close up, which I think actually is.

• 2:05Speaker 01

  The early parts of my career, when I didn't really understand myself, probably, I probably looked a lot powdier and a lot more like-

• 2:13Bunnie XO?

  Cause you were just so introverted.

• 2:15Speaker 01

  Cause I was so freaked out by having to be extroverted, even though that existed in me.

• 2:20Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Um, so it was like a constant wrestling match between those two, but now I feel like the podcast uh, in the show has given me a really nice outlet to like, talk to people, which I really love to do.

• 2:31Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, you do a great job at it. Do you ever get nervous before somebody comes on?

• 2:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:35Bunnie XO?

  Cause I've been doing this eight years and sometimes I still get butterflies in my stomach. And what you were just saying, there's sometimes I will rock a fucking interview and then another time I'll bomb the interview and I'm just like, what happened? And like, I think about it all night long. Cause I'm like, why did I not connect with this person? Do you get like that?

• 2:52Speaker 01

  I do. Uh, I find it going away more and more and more, maybe with age, maybe.

• 2:58Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, I'm your, I'm, we're the same age.

• 3:00Speaker 01

  Are we the same age?

• 3:00Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 3:01Speaker 01

  Oh, I thought you were 10 years younger than me.

• 3:02Bunnie XO?

  I wish. I, I will be after I get the facelift. I'll be looking 10 years younger.

• 3:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, you're doing great. You're doing great.

• 3:09Bunnie XO?

  No, I just turned 46 last week.

• 3:11Speaker 01

  Happy birthday.

• 3:12Bunnie XO?

  Thank you.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  I like 46.

• 3:15Bunnie XO?

  It's awesome, right? It's a cool year.

• 3:16Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 3:17Bunnie XO?

  I feel like we have enough wisdom, but we're still cool.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it's different, 46 in 2026 is different than 46 in like 1996.

• 3:28Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. It was like Golden Girls era.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  It is. It's like, I used to think that it was old and maybe it was me, or maybe it was actually at the time because of where we were at, but um, I don't feel like slow at all.

• 3:42Bunnie XO?

  Mm-mm.

• 3:42Speaker 01

  And I feel like I'm pretty plugged in. I, I mean, I have teenagers, so that keeps me in touch, I think, but um, yeah, I don't know. I think you're as old as you feel, maybe.

• 3:52Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, absolutely. I tell my whole team, they're all younger than me. And I'm just like, I don't feel like I'm 46. I feel like a, like a, maybe a 28, 29 year old trapped in my body sometimes, cause I still have so much energy. And like, I don't know, I just, 46 to me just doesn't seem old anymore now that I'm here, you know? So do you feel the same way?

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I don't feel old at all.

• 4:11Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 4:11Speaker 01

  I mean, and I don't mind being old.

• 4:13Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 4:14Speaker 01

  I've no, I'm not hiding-

• 4:15Bunnie XO?

  You've earned your stripes.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Definitely not hiding my age.

• 4:18Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  But I do feel like I need to be able to be my age. So I make decisions that feel- Age.

• 4:25Bunnie XO?

  Appropriate.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Appropriate. You know, like, I don't want to go on stage unless I am forty six on stage.

• 4:31Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 4:33Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 4:33Speaker 01

  I don't want to go on stage and prance around.

• 4:36Bunnie XO?

  And slam guitars around.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  Or whatever. Like, sometimes you do. Like, like, some, however you are on stage is how you are, but I do definitely feel like there's something that maybe I thought you can only do it if you were young or some, maybe, I don't know.

• 4:49Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  But now I kind of go like, if I can be me on stage and I don't have to pretend anything.

• 4:55Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Then I can still go on stage. And, and I think that's how I feel about life.

• 5:00Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  I want to go if I can't be a forty six year old dad of two teenagers who's, you know what I mean? Like, I feel like our, maybe our, our business or our industry or entertainment or even just maybe, it's my thing. It could just be me. Like, that's, I'm definitely open to that just being me. But I feel like sometimes the world, it makes you feel like you're supposed to want to be younger or, or look younger.

• 5:27Bunnie XO?

  It tries to put you in a box. And I'll never let society put me in a box.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  I don't mind being old.

• 5:32Bunnie XO?

  No, I don't either. Because I, I think we make it look good, you know? And I, I don't think there's any reason to ever, uh, what is the word that they, that they use all the time? It's not age shaming, but it's, I forget what it is, where they are always like telling you that you have to act your age. And it's like, no, you don't have to act your age. Like, we are a different breed. You know, like, we came, we're, we're gen, what are we, Gen Z?

• 5:53Speaker 01

  We're, we're Gen X.

• 5:55Bunnie XO?

  Are we Gen X? Yeah, we're Gen X.

• 5:57Speaker 01

  Is very.

• 5:58Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  You're far off on Gen Z.

• 6:00Bunnie XO?

  Shit.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  It goes Gen X. It goes Gen X.

• 6:03Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 6:04Speaker 01

  Millennials.

• 6:05Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Gen Z.

• 6:06Bunnie XO?

  Gen Z. Okay, I always get those mixed up. Yeah.

• 6:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, so.

• 6:09Bunnie XO?

  I always get them mixed up.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  I believe Nicole is a millennial.

• 6:14Bunnie XO?

  Is she really?

• 6:15Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 6:16Bunnie XO?

  She's another person who has just aged so beautifully, still looks young. I mean, like, you lucked out. You guys, you guys are a hot couple.

• 6:23Speaker 01

  We, I got, uh, very lucky with her because she's way above my, uh,

• 6:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, she's smart. She's beautiful. She's classy.

• 6:34Bunnie XO?

  You guys compliment each other.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  So she's, she's a one of a kind, one of one. Like, I just feel like I lucked out with her. But she's a millennial. I say it all the time. I'm like, you're actually a millennial. Eighty-one, I think is, I think millennials started in eighty, so.

• 6:47Bunnie XO?

  I'm eighty, so.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Oh, you're nineteen eighty, so I think you're a millennial.

• 6:50Bunnie XO?

  No, I think, are you sure? Give that a goog. We have to check that.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Ask ChatGPT.

• 6:54Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, yeah. Ask Sunny. Where's Sunny? Have you named your ChatGPT yet?

• 6:58Speaker 01

  No.

• 6:58Bunnie XO?

  I named mine Sunny. We love her. She's, well, we think it's a her. We're not sure.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  She's eighty-one. That's what, that's, you're right.

• 7:05Bunnie XO?

  Wow, so I was, I missed it by a year.

• 7:07Speaker 01

  You, you are. You're, you're Gen X.

• 7:10Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 7:11Speaker 01

  And she's a millennial.

• 7:12Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  I don't know why that matters so much, but it does.

• 7:14Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, yeah. It's just literally just a few months off.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Gen X is kinda cool.

• 7:17Bunnie XO?

  I feel like we aren't, like, we're OG, we're the OGs. We earned our stripes. So let's, let's, let's bring it all the way back because, you know, good Charlotte, just, you guys really paved the way for so many people. And especially the genre of music that you guys did. And we were just talking about that whenever we first started, that, how you guys are like the OGs and.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  That was nice of you to say.

• 7:38Bunnie XO?

  I, I appreciate that, but it's, it's real, so.

• 7:41Speaker 01

  Well.

• 7:41Bunnie XO?

  Um, you guys literally have accomplished so much. And for accomplishing so much, as I was researching you last night, I realized how like grounded you are and like how normal you are. And, you know, when you think of rock stars, you don't think of somebody who is as grounded and, you know, introspective as yourself, which I really admire, but when you really think about it, that's what a real rock star is. As somebody who can lead by example and also show younger generations of how you should be. How does that feel to kind of carry that weight on your, is it a weight on your shoulder?

• 8:21Speaker 01

  Um, I think that's very nice. That's a huge compliment.

• 8:25Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  Um, so it's, so I have to say that because I think, uh, I live in my own, I think, little reality, which is really small. And, um.

• 8:42Speaker 01

  I think, that's a really good question. I think I was different in my twenties, maybe. But I, if I, it's, it's, it's, it's, so it's not an easy answer, right?

• 8:53Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  If I think-

• 8:55Bunnie XO?

  There's layers to it.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  There's layers to it, the way, the way, um, I guess, if I'm trying to explain, how I feel, from my perspective, when you put it that way, which is really, which I, like again, I said, is a really nice compliment. I think I grew up in a very simple place and way, and I had a very unique,

• 9:30Speaker 01

  family life, and I think that set me up to probably go in like one or two directions. And so I think growing up in the middle of nowhere, my mom was super religious, I wasn't allowed to do anything. My dad left when I was young, um, all those things, kind of like, just the top line stuff, there's, it's a lot more complicated than that. As anyone who knows, like, like, life is so much more complicated and there's so many different,

• 9:59Speaker 01

  you know, my story will be a bit different than my mom's story, her perspective, she'd say this, I'd say that, my dad would have said this. So I think there's a lot of like, everyone's living their own personal life inside of a family life, even if it's like tragic or troubled.

• 10:15Bunnie XO?

  I always say that you can grow up in the same house, a different home.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:19Bunnie XO?

  Because my little sister will tell you a completely different story of growing up, and I'm like, I'm like, where did, you know, so I get it.

• 10:27Speaker 01

  But your experience is yours.

• 10:29Bunnie XO?

  Exactly.

• 10:30Speaker 01

  And your memory is yours, and I think, you know, I, so all that to say, by the way, no answer I give you today is gonna be short.

• 10:41Bunnie XO?

  It's okay, I don't mind.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  I'm a-

• 10:42Bunnie XO?

  I like listening to your talk.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  I ramble on.

• 10:44Bunnie XO?

  No, we like it.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  But.

• 10:49Bunnie XO?

  Well, let's do this. Let's circle back to where this all started and go back to your home life because that's actually like a little tidbit that I couldn't find because I can't find, you don't talk about yourself a lot. You talk about Good Charlotte a lot.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:03Bunnie XO?

  And when I was researching you last night, I was like, I cannot get anything on this man because he doesn't really open up so much. So to hear you say that you grew up in a super religious household, like I relate to that because I grew up in a super southern Pentecostal household.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were like Southern Church of God.

• 11:18Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 11:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:19Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, I never knew that about you guys.

• 11:21Speaker 01

  Very evangelical.

• 11:22Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 11:22Speaker 01

  And everything was, was, was kind of the foundational belief system was not very cause and effect, you know, because I still have a lot of faith and I would say that I still have religion, but I don't believe in religion as a, as an excuse to, it's not a get out of jail free card.

• 11:43Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  So working on yourself and growing is something that like, you're gonna do either way because nature is we grow. But if you learn how to grow and you learn what that even means, you can actually really grow. And so what I found in the kind of religious structure that I grew up in was that was the reason for everything. And, and so like if you just pray for something, maybe it'll happen if God loves you. And if he doesn't, or it's not, whatever. And I think there's actually this thing about like building things you can, and so what, all that to say is I wasn't raised to know how the world works.

• 12:20Bunnie XO?

  Right. It's always heaven or hell.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  There's no process.

• 12:23Bunnie XO?

  It's black or white.

• 12:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no causality. There's no process.

• 12:25Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 12:26Speaker 01

  So when you're raised in a house like that, you really are not given any tools or information to navigate life.

• 12:36Bunnie XO?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:37Speaker 01

  And there's no hope unless.

• 12:38Bunnie XO?

  Cop, coping skills.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  And coping skills and all that stuff. And, and so, because any kind of science or, or anything is, is, is, is wrong.

• 12:47Bunnie XO?

  Frowned upon for sure.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Actually not. So if you don't go to a Christian therapist, then you're not going to therapy because why would that therapist who's spent decades becoming an expert on the brain or the emotional or this or that be a trusted source if they don't share the same faith as you?

• 13:07Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  Which I don't believe. I don't believe that people who don't share the same faith can't.

• 13:15Speaker 02

  Attention all new and existing members of the W D N C. I'm Melanie Sanders and this is the We Do Not Care Club Podcast. We got to midlife and realized we just simply do not care much anymore. Now, we gotta help each other make sense of hot flashes, dry coochie, chin hair, trifling families, brain fog, and bat wings. We are not alone and we will be heard. So come join the W D N C. Follow and listen to the We Do Not Care Club Podcast with Melanie Sanders wherever you get your podcasts.

• 13:45Speaker 01

  Cooperate and help one another.

• 13:47Bunnie XO?

  Absolutely.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  You know, and, and, and so, all that to say, that, so if you have the extremely religious household with, coupled with mental health, addiction, and all the other things that were there that contradict each other.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  It's a very, and then also poverty. So you have money problems, you have addiction problems, you have mental health problems, and then you have overtones of like explicit religious, all that is like the...

• 14:19Bunnie XO?

  Religious trauma.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Right. It's trauma and it's like the perfect...

• 14:23Bunnie XO?

  Cause I have it too.

• 14:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's the perfect recipe for someone to go forth into the world with a bunch of baggage, a bunch of issues, a bunch of unresolved things, a bunch of questions, and no know-how in how the world works and how life works and how, what processes and how to, how, well, how does success work? And, and then also low self-esteem because when, you know, also neglect in the house. There's all kinds of stuff in the house. So there was just a big messy bag of stuff there. And then I think we went, we left home, fled home essentially at like 17, 18.

• 15:03Bunnie XO?

  Can we pause right there for a second? When you talk about addiction and mental health in the household, are you talking about yourself or your parents? Okay, so you're talking-

• 15:12Speaker 01

  My, my, my family, so my dad-

• 15:14Bunnie XO?

  So it does run in the family?

• 15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, my dad was-

• 15:16Bunnie XO?

  Cause you're very open about your mental health too, and I love that about you.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, my dad was a alcoholic.

• 15:22Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 15:22Speaker 01

  He died from it.

• 15:23Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Um, my family members, which I don't feel it's important to say who-

• 15:28Bunnie XO?

  Right, right, right.

• 15:29Speaker 01

  Um, for their own sake, and, uh, but, uh, lots of, everybody, so many people were addicted-

• 15:35Bunnie XO?

  Gotcha.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  To everything, so there was, there's, there's all kinds of, um, every kind of addiction.

• 15:41Bunnie XO?

  So you, you had so many examples of things you didn't want to be, or things that you were going to be very aware of.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  And I couldn't make sense of them until I was older and I saw addiction play out in my career with other people. Cause when you go into music, there's tons of addicts around.

• 15:58Bunnie XO?

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Um, it's a very, uh, it's a, it's a industry that's very, uh, addiction friendly, and so, of all kinds. So, I was so surrounded and immersed in addiction, um, growing up, that it was a very familiar. So I also found myself being very attracted to and comfortable with, uh, addicted people.

• 16:20Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  Um, so, um, that was kinda my comfort zone, cause it was like, normal, you know?

• 16:26Bunnie XO?

  What you call home, that's home for you.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  And then, healthy people, I was like-

• 16:30Bunnie XO?

  Safe, it's a-

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Who the fuck are you? Get away from me!

• 16:33Bunnie XO?

  Cause, cause, safe, safety feel, to somebody who has gone through trauma like you have, somebody is safe, is, like, sets off the alarms. We're like, why is there no chaos going on? We, we need to tear some shit up in here, you know?

• 16:45Speaker 01

  Yes, and so, um, leave home-

• 16:51Bunnie XO?

  And so you got, you said you guys fled from home?

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:54Bunnie XO?

  What does that entail? Because I fled from home too at 14.

• 16:57Speaker 01

  Um, so my brother had ran away, my older brother had ran away when I was, um, about 15. And we were very close, so it was very painful.

• 17:07Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Um, and then, my, my mom and us were always moving, cause we were always kinda, we, my dad had left, which was also very painful. And I was very angry, and then, um, my mom, who struggled with a, a lot of, uh, health and mental health and all that, um, really struggled to-

• 17:29Speaker 01

  Keep it together. So we're always moving all the time. There was like, we get evicted, or we have to live with someone, or we're living with some people from church, or we're like, so we're moving around. And I got very good at like, moving in like, we had this like Astro minivan that like, only two of the doors worked, and the back doors, and we would like load all our shit in, and we would move, and it was like, literally like trash bags, a suitcase, like boxes.

• 17:56Bunnie XO?

  I still pack my houses in trash bags.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, put it all in the trash bag. Some nice trash bags now, but.

• 18:02Bunnie XO?

  They're strong as hell.

• 18:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm very good at moving, but I'm also like very skittish about houses and moving and stuff. So it's funny. I've worked on it, though.

• 18:12Bunnie XO?

  When you say skittish, what do you mean by that? Like, is like, something freak you out in the house? Or do things have to be a certain way?

• 18:19Speaker 01

  I don't unpack for a very long time.

• 18:21Bunnie XO?

  Oh, because you don't feel safe enough?

• 18:23Speaker 01

  I don't feel like it's real. And it's so funny, because we just built our like, forever home, like our dream home, and it took us a long time. Nicole's very loving, very patient. But she's had to deal with stuff I don't think she's, she's very compassionate, but she doesn't always understand. And over the years, she's gotten to, because she knows me, and she knows my story. And so, that's what we do with our partners.

• 18:48Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, you learn them.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  And you learn their little quirks, and they come from stuff, you know?

• 18:52Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 18:52Speaker 01

  And she's been very patient, but I always have to have one room in the house that's like, still in boxes, and it's stuff I can't, and it's stuff I won't throw away, or it's stuff, you know, and it's funny, because like, she's, it's, it's like my thing.

• 19:12Bunnie XO?

  It's like your thing.

• 19:13Speaker 01

  But we have it, we have it, like, it's a beautiful house, but don't go in that room.

• 19:18Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, skip Joel's room.

• 19:20Speaker 01

  That's Joel's room. But it's like, it's been, I've been working it out, and like, we're in a good place with it. And it's like, it's, it's, it's contained.

• 19:27Bunnie XO?

  You deserve to unpack.

• 19:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:29Bunnie XO?

  You know, like, you gotta tell, you gotta go back and hug your inner child, and let him know that you deserve to unpack.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I've been, you know, I've been in therapy now for 13, 14 years, and that's how long it takes. For a lot of this stuff.

• 19:47Bunnie XO?

  Healing is not overnight and I preach that on this podcast so much. I'm still, I feel like we're never healed. I feel like our journey is to learn and to just keep healing through life. Like, it doesn't matter if I conquer one thing, the next thing pops up, you know? So I just feel like it's, we're always on this journey to learn and to teach people what we're learning along the way.

• 20:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think, I think it's self-esteem.

• 20:15Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 20:16Speaker 01

  You know, I think it's, when you grow up in a place where there's a lot of unsafety, or confusion, or instability, or whatever it is, and your parents are trying their best, or maybe they're not, I don't know. I think mine did. I think mine were, my, my parents were honest people with a lot of problems.

• 20:37Bunnie XO?

  And you have to think of how they were raised.

• 20:39Speaker 01

  And how they were raised.

• 20:40Bunnie XO?

  That's where I've had to put myself out with my parents.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  And generational trauma.

• 20:43Bunnie XO?

  Exactly.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Is a real thing.

• 20:45Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 20:47Bunnie XO?

  Which is not an excuse.

• 20:49Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 20:49Bunnie XO?

  For their behavior. Cause we're breaking generational curses, but at the same time, it does give, it helps us to heal, to think of it in that aspect also.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think of anything as excuses. I think it's just information.

• 21:01Bunnie XO?

  Right. Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And it helps you understand what that thing is, why that person is. Doesn't mean I have to accept it, doesn't mean I have to be around it, it doesn't mean I have to,

• 21:12Speaker 01

  I can deal with it or not. It does, that's the thing. The lie is that we have to like, like, uh, we have to like, make things work, or like.

• 21:24Bunnie XO?

  We have to forgive.

• 21:25Speaker 01

  Or forgive, or accept. Like, you can forgive and still never see someone again if you want to.

• 21:30Bunnie XO?

  Absolutely.

• 21:30Speaker 01

  I really believe in autonomy.

• 21:32Bunnie XO?

  Hmm.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  And I think that you deserve to have the life you want to have and live in, and.

• 21:37Bunnie XO?

  And protect your peace at whatever cost it is.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  And have boundaries, and.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  I think the goal in life is to get to a place where you need nothing. Cause you have

• 21:54Speaker 01

  yourself.

• 21:55Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  And that takes, it, it, there's like a, a piece of like, like, you wanna have deep, connected, meaningful relationships, but you want, like, I want that, let's say, like with my marriage, you wanna have a, you wanna be together, you, you, you both have to wanna be together.

• 22:13Bunnie XO?

  Right, you choose each other.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:15Bunnie XO?

  That's what Jay and I say, we choose each other every day.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And,

• 22:20Speaker 01

  you know,

• 22:23Speaker 01

  it's, it's more complicated, I, I probably make it sound like it's, but, but like, cause there's.

• 22:27Bunnie XO?

  No, I love that you said that because I think a lot of the youth needs to hear that because especially with um, this healing culture that we have, like on TikTok and all that stuff, everybody is like forcing forgiveness down people's throats. And I think somebody needs to say it, like, guess what? You don't have, you can forgive, but you can also forget that person and they don't have to be in your life.

• 22:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, or, and, and forgive is even such a, a, such a specific word, like you can make peace with it.

• 22:54Bunnie XO?

  There you go. Even better.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  You know what I mean?

• 22:56Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  And you can, you, that version of whatever you wanna call it, forgiveness is more like, you don't have to carry it with you always.

• 23:05Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  You know, and so,

• 23:10Speaker 01

  that being said, I,

• 23:14Speaker 01

  I came to the, I think I came to the um,

• 23:20Speaker 01

  realization with my parents that I, I, I didn't feel I needed to forgive them, cause I actually didn't think they did anything wrong. I think they were negligent and they, they didn't know what they were doing. And I came to an understanding of them that made me um, really love them. And.

• 23:40Bunnie XO?

  That's powerful.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  It is, and, but I can also be honest with them.

• 23:44Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  And show them what I've learned and hope that they could.

• 23:53Speaker 01

  I also believe in sharing something if we figured something out with people. So if we figured something out that worked for us, or some information that really enlightened us, that we should share it. And like that's if I have a great relationship with my mom now because it's very honest and I can share it with her. Like, hey, I I kind of realized this. And then she can take it. I'm like, dude, don't you don't need to tell me what you think about it. Just take that and meditate on it and see like, maybe you'll something will come to you.

• 24:24Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, chew on it for a little bit.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  And like, we have a very kind of, we've, we've got an evolved relationship.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  And then my dad, we had a really great relationship. We re, we, we reconnected and we reconciled the last 10 years of his life. And, um, and we had a really nice, I, I really loved it. I had got so much joy out of it.

• 24:47Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  And when I had been angry at him for so long, but I came to understand him, you know, and accept him. And, um, and, and then, and then I think I got a lot out of that because I think I have a really nice relationship with my kids and it's like a living vicariously. Cause I'm getting to feel what like that relationship would have felt like.

• 25:10Bunnie XO?

  You're going to be the dad you never got.

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Right. And it's cool.

• 25:13Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Which I want to talk about that later too, because I, I love, love, love, love how you and Nicole kind of like, I don't know if the word saved each other is the, the right terminology, but it just seems like when you guys united as one, you literally just became the best versions of yourself and the best parents. And that is because she was going down one trajectory. You were going down one trajectory. And then it's like, you guys have your baby girl and, you know, somebody asked earlier, what's Nicole doing? I said, she's being a mom, dude.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:45Bunnie XO?

  I was like that. And that's like the coolest thing you could do. I'm sure she's doing more than that. But it's like, that's like the coolest thing that you could say about Nicole Richie and you is that you guys literally just really buckled down with each other and just created the safe space of your family.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I think, um, I appreciate that.

• 26:06Speaker 01

  It's just sacred ground.

• 26:08Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 26:08Speaker 01

  So, you know, the narrative is going to be the narrative. I'm super aware of the way the world works and the narrative of what Nicole or who she was before the us, right? Because I understand also, we live in, people are interested in, in these things. I don't fight it, but I, I do, I will say that Nicole has always been the person she is today.

• 26:42Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  So I'm very, I'm very, I'm her biggest fan and I was the, from the first time I met her, because I see someone who's very strong and has been through a lot and has the integrity and the self-respect above to not feel like, I don't know the word, but it's like, there's an elegance to, and a bit of a class to being above a narrative that everyone else has chosen for you. And she was never that narrative.

• 27:25Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Regardless of some mistakes that she made when she was young, like everyone.

• 27:29Bunnie XO?

  Oh, yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  They got to run, run wild with them in that time period because-

• 27:33Bunnie XO?

  It was so disrespectful.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  It was very disrespectful to women.

• 27:36Bunnie XO?

  The women were not protected whatsoever.

• 27:38Speaker 01

  They were not.

• 27:39Bunnie XO?

  No.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  And at the time, we all saw it too. Like at the time, like that was, it was, but there was no, there was no way, the, the public didn't have a say. So the narrative would become the narrative and the people in, that were reading it could participate in it, or they could be like, I don't believe that. And certainly just like, but now people can say it. So things can build and there can become like, the court of public opinion is real now.

• 28:07Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Where it wasn't really back then, like there was, there was no social media. So whereas today, when there's a narrative that feels like, maybe that's not the whole story.

• 28:17Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 28:17Speaker 01

  People can speak up. And there's like these TikTok sleuths and there's people, you know, there's all this stuff.

• 28:23Bunnie XO?

  And I'm gonna tell you what, TikTok is like the FBI.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  You could really see like-

• 28:27Bunnie XO?

  They will find out everything.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you could really like, so that being said, the person that I met is the person that I'm with.

• 28:34Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  And so I didn't save her.

• 28:38Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Speaker 01

  At the time, I also think we were young. We were in our twenties and and I was especially emotionally.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  Still like really underdeveloped and like not functioning as high as I. I was immature.

• 28:58Speaker 01

  And so I had my own work to do, but. I think.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  It was very clear and easy when you meet the person that you love and when you have.

• 29:16Speaker 01

  The the things that I valued always at my core was like, I want to meet a nice girl and. And settle down and have some kids and hopefully have a nice family. It was kind of the dream I always had because I didn't know what that felt like.

• 29:30Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  And so it was kind of like a. A far fetched dream for me, but I still kind of like really hoped for it and. And then, you know, we got together and we had our kids and we now nineteen years or this year will be twenty years. In like December, it'll be twenty years since we, you know, met.

• 29:50Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 29:50Speaker 01

  And.

• 29:51Bunnie XO?

  Which in Hollywood, that is unheard of. It happens, but it's very rare that you guys have this long lasting love. And I think. How protective you are over her, like in every interview that I've seen, you're always very protective of her and like, I don't know, you guys just. Didn't live your lives. Out loud, you guys kind of like sheltered yourselves and you can see the big shift when you guys get together. So yeah, maybe saved each other wasn't the right word, but. In a sense, you guys really buckled in with each other, whether you guys went through shit behind closed doors. None of it got leaked, like and nobody knows any of the drama. And I think that's so fucking cool. Because that's almost impossible to do with people that are of you guys' stature.

• 30:36Speaker 01

  Uh, I agree. I, I, but I also-

• 30:40Bunnie XO?

  He's like, I don't know how we did it.

• 30:42Speaker 01

  But I think like, you know, I think you guys are probably the same.

• 30:46Bunnie XO?

  Oh, honey. I, listen, I blast our shit everywhere, but I, I own what we've been through, you know? And like, I talk about my past and I talk about things that my husband and I have been through, but-

• 30:55Speaker 01

  I think you guys are coming from a, when you share, I think you're coming from a place of helping people.

• 31:03Bunnie XO?

  Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  So I think this is the same kind of integrity.

• 31:09Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I, I don't think that, I think that we're, um, we live in the world, we're completely aware of how, of what the world is. And we know that, um, if we're not protective of our, our kids and our family, that everyone else can just run, can tell stories that'll get memorialized and become things that like, even when you look on our like Wikipedia pages, they're not, half of it's bullshit. Like, you know what I mean?

• 31:46Bunnie XO?

  I don't read those.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  But like, that's what people do. They like look up and they go, oh, this, this, they get information and you're like, eh, like half of that's just kind of like what a press, a tabloid story was a headline and then it got someone added it in or something. I don't know exactly how it works, but it's like kind of bullshit.

• 32:01Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  And I think you, you become acutely aware of, of what could,

• 32:11Speaker 01

  when you're responsible for your kids especially, like you're just kind of like, it's trying to protect them from the world a little bit. And at the same time, you're trying to teach them how the world works and how we have to move through the world. And it's not because we think we're this or we think we're that, we're just aware of it.

• 32:30Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  And, um-

• 32:32Bunnie XO?

  It's respectable though, how you guys do move.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Thank you. I, I think we just kind of manage- That part of our life as like a stressor that we just try to manage with care and like, you don't get it all right. I think when we were younger, we were like, we felt like we had to do some things that we now looking back, at the time it was different, but now looking back, you're like, I wouldn't have fucking done a magazine of our wedding or our baby pictures, but at the time it felt like-

• 33:06Bunnie XO?

  That was like the thing to do back then.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Well, also they were hunting you. So you were kind of managing, you didn't have Instagram to go like, okay, here's the picture now. It was just felt like it was this big tornado of just trying to, so it was like a weird thing to-

• 33:22Bunnie XO?

  It was like you had to do it or they were gonna do it without your consent.

• 33:25Speaker 01

  Or they were gonna do it and you couldn't control it. And it was like, it was just weird. It was such a weird-

• 33:29Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, no, they bullied. The paparazzi bullied.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  They did. They, you know, they- With Nicole, I remember when she was, at the time, I think my son had just been born and he was in a, like, it was like weeks after he was born, a paparazzi rear-ended her at a stoplight to try and have to get her owl car.

• 33:55Speaker 01

  Like, they did that.

• 33:56Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  It was crazy at the time.

• 33:58Bunnie XO?

  With the baby in the car?

• 33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:00Bunnie XO?

  That's insane. If they did that now, they would get arrested.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  And no one, no one give a fuck about it.

• 34:04Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  Now, there's like, there's, there's, there's been enough like lawsuits, there's been enough, and there's public outcry when people see something wrong. And, and that actually does affect how-

• 34:17Bunnie XO?

  People move.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  How people move and what things could go to court or not, like literally just on, based on if something picks up steam or whatever, like that shit is real. Like, the social media of it all is a real thing. So, at the time, no one gave a fuck about that. And she didn't even complain about it. It was fucked up, but she was just like, you know, those kinds of things, that was the time, the 2000s, the early 2000s was like-

• 34:41Bunnie XO?

  Insane.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  It was insane like that. But anyways, we digress. I think that like, we have always just tried to-

• 34:51Speaker 01

  Navigate it because to protect our family while also kind of being aware that if we complain about it, we would you can't just be so out of touch that like you you can't feel sorry for yourself because it's not that's not how we feel. It's been more just like try to protect as much as you can so that your family has a shot at like some form of like a nice private life where your kids get to just grow up and be as normal as possible, even though I wouldn't say it's been totally normal.

• 35:31Bunnie XO?

  How do you feel about your daughter being in the press lately for wanting to change her name?

• 35:36Speaker 01

  Well, that's the thing too is like that again, like that's a narrative everybody ran away with because it gets clicks. If you I even saw it and I was like, oh, my God, like I think it was like the Daily Mail or something was like her transformation. She's been going by her middle name since she was in like first grade. Like she chose it. She went to school. One day she came home. Or we went to we went to the

• 36:02Speaker 01

  open house night or whatever. And the teacher was like Kate's doing great. She's so nice. And we're like, who's Kate? And they're like, your daughter Kate. That's what she said her name was. We're like, oh, she's going by her middle name now. And then we went home. We're like, you go by Kate at school? And she goes, Yeah, I like it. And we were like, Okay, great. And then we we everyone who knows her calls her Kate. As long as you've known Kate. If you've known her since she was seven. She's been Kate.

• 36:28Bunnie XO?

  I love that you guys accepted it, though.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 36:30Bunnie XO?

  Be yourself.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a big deal.

• 36:32Bunnie XO?

  By the way.

• 36:32Speaker 01

  It's her middle name.

• 36:33Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  I thought it was cool.

• 36:34Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 01

  I always said I want to get it tattoo her name tattooed on my neck, but like it wasn't a big deal. It was just like, oh, cool. Like, that's that's cute. You're going by your middle name. That's sweet. And then there was no discussion. It wasn't a big deal. And then as long as You know, for 11 years now, she's gone by Kate. So everyone knows her as Kate. If you know her, you know she's Kate.

• 36:58Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 36:58Speaker 01

  And people that don't know her would call her Harlow. And it was always kind of funny because like she, it's kind of smart, actually. She knows like if someone called her Harlow, like they don't really know her.

• 37:10Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 37:10Speaker 01

  And it's kind of interesting.

• 37:12Bunnie XO?

  It's like her alias.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  A little bit, yeah. But she just did that when she was in first grade and it was never even a discussion.

• 37:19Bunnie XO?

  Crazy how that headline just popped up.

• 37:21Speaker 01

  So they made it a headline because that was, I think that was like probably the most interesting thing about her turning 18.

• 37:27Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 37:28Speaker 01

  Was the world going like, who's Kate? Because they've always called her Harlow.

• 37:33Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 37:34Speaker 01

  But I think because she hasn't been out there, maybe it's interesting. But it's just funny. No one in our, none of us cared. She doesn't care.

• 37:45Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  But it was funny because like, it's a big deal. She's 18, you know? She's extremely, she's such a nice girl. She's really smart. She's a lot like her mom. She's.

• 37:58Bunnie XO?

  She is her twin.

• 37:59Speaker 01

  She's, yeah, she's, she's beautiful like her mom. She's smart. She's sharp. She's, and she's incredibly talented with, you know, what she loves, which is like fashion and design and things like that. She's got a great eye. And I'm excited to see what she does, what she chooses to do.

• 38:17Bunnie XO?

  What is it like being a dad? Like what, like becoming a father, just, you know, and we're going to get into the Good Charlotte stuff like that. But I just, I want to get to know you, you know?

• 38:28Bunnie XO?

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• 40:36Speaker 01

  I've always been in awe of her. Ever since she was born, I've been in awe of her. She's really special. And I felt incredibly, uh, always felt incredibly, um...

• 40:52Speaker 01

  What's the word?

• 40:54Bunnie XO?

  Lucky?

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Lucky is a word, but it's beyond that. I feel, uh, I've always been in awe of her. She's special. I've always, ever since she was born, first time I held her, I was the first person to hold her.

• 41:09Speaker 01

  And, um, I knew she was special and I felt in awe of that and that I got to be the person who gets to say I'm her dad and to call her my daughter. I feel like, uh, it's been, I always say like, my kids have made it they've made it so easy to be a dad. They are such easy people. They're, they're, and, um, so it's, it's not been some big sacrifice to be their dad.

• 41:40Bunnie XO?

  Well, they're a product of their environment.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it feels to me like I was given a gift from God, these kids, because they are really cool, easy,

• 41:54Speaker 01

  fun. And they make me, they make me happy. They make me smile. They make me, and, and I've never worried about them. I mean, you worry when they're little about maybe they're, you just, being, becoming a parent is, is, can be nerve wracking or whatever, and you just want to keep them safe and all that, but they're so smart. They know who they are. And, um, I always give them, Nicole is, Nicole's like that. When you get to know her, you're not, you're not worried about her. She's, she's so sharp and she's so strong. And I feel like they got that.

• 42:26Bunnie XO?

  She gives off those vibes for sure.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:28Bunnie XO?

  She doesn't give off any damsel in distress vibes.

• 42:31Speaker 01

  No, she's, she's definitely doing what she wants. And, um, um, I feel like my kids got a lot from her. So I, I just feel lucky. I feel like I've been the luckiest guy in the world, with my wife and kids.

• 42:47Bunnie XO?

  I love hearing you talk about your family. So let's circle back to you fleeing home. That's where we left off.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Fled home.

• 42:53Bunnie XO?

  How old were you when you left home?

• 42:55Speaker 01

  I think I was 18. Just turned 18.

• 42:57Bunnie XO?

  Okay. So you guys had already started the band though. Didn't you start the band at 15?

• 43:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:02Bunnie XO?

  Okay. So take me into the bedroom with you and Benji forming this band. Where, where did music come into play for you guys? Was that your escape?

• 43:10Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah, I think, um, it was really hard at the time. My dad had left.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  A lot of turmoil in the house, a lot of money problems, school was hard.

• 43:24Speaker 01

  And I think music was, and you know, it's tough, like you're a teenager and like, you're just trying to figure out who you are. Uh, and you know, I'm not a huge guy, but I was especially not like tall or, or cool when I was 15. Uh, so.

• 43:44Bunnie XO?

  I don't think any of us were. We're trying to figure ourselves out.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  So I think when we, we, we, we started to discover music and it really, I felt like for the first time, when I found these bands and stuff, I started to identify with like,

• 44:04Speaker 01

  like, I could dress that way and feel cool.

• 44:09Bunnie XO?

  It's like an alter ego.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the music made me feel cool and it gave me somewhere, I think it gave us somewhere to escape to, where it felt like there was also like, immediately we started dreaming, immediately, the very first day we started Good Charlotte was just me and Benji in our bedroom.

• 44:24Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 44:24Speaker 01

  We're like, we're going to start a band and we started thinking of names and we came up with Good Charlotte. And, um, and then we had a dream and then we were fully focused on that and it was like escape from all the stuff. And then that became the mission. And then I think the mission gave us, um, a lot of hope and a lot of purpose. And we just started working on it every day. We started writing songs. If we weren't writing songs, we were looking at, we were reading magazine articles. We were trying to figure out how they do it. And we were like, from day one, we were focused on like, how do you do that? We're going to do it, figuring it out. Then we found our band members, Paul, our bass player.

• 45:03Bunnie XO?

  Were these childhood friends?

• 45:04Speaker 01

  They were in school. We were asking around. We were like, does anyone?

• 45:07Bunnie XO?

  Like, anybody can join the band?

• 45:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew his sister and then he was, he was a great under us. And he, he was a bass player and they're like, do you want to be in our band? And he was like, sure. That's it. And then we had our first band practice and it was like that. We were just putting it together. And, um, I think it just gave us.

• 45:24Bunnie XO?

  What was that first practice like? Cause I'm sure you guys, did you guys have any musical experience?

• 45:29Speaker 01

  No, we had no.

• 45:31Bunnie XO?

  So you guys were just in the garage, just hammering away on whatever.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  We didn't have any instruments.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  Then we got a guitar, this like shitty guitar and Paul taught Benji like three chords.

• 45:41Bunnie XO?

  Oh.

• 45:42Speaker 01

  And then Benji had three chords and we started writing songs with those. And then a guy at church gave us like a bass and we had a little karaoke machine. And this like old little karaoke machine that had tapes. And we would like plug a guitar and a mic in and we would make little songs on it. And that's how we wrote our first songs.

• 46:00Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  And it was, yeah, it was crazy.

• 46:03Bunnie XO?

  Kids these days could never even imagine.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:05Bunnie XO?

  The shit that we had to improvise and come up with.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  The amount of work that it took.

• 46:11Bunnie XO?

  It takes, yeah.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  To even just get places.

• 46:15Bunnie XO?

  Yes, yes. Cause now you can make a video and it goes viral and you have a fucking record deal.

• 46:19Speaker 01

  You do it on your phone.

• 46:20Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, it's crazy, but back in the day, like you guys had to do what you guys did.

• 46:25Speaker 01

  It was so hard, but it wasn't hard at the time.

• 46:28Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 46:28Speaker 01

  It was exciting.

• 46:29Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 46:30Speaker 01

  But if you.

• 46:30Bunnie XO?

  Gave you something that gave you hope.

• 46:32Speaker 01

  Yes, but if you said, okay, now you have to go back and do it again, the same way. I'd be like, hell, no, I'm not doing that.

• 46:38Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, yeah, well, cause you were on the journey. You were just, you had those blinders on and you were just like, I have a goal and this is what I'm gonna do.

• 46:45Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 46:46Bunnie XO?

  So take me on this journey. You guys formed Good Charlotte. You guys are in the garage making music. You and Benji, you know, twins, best friends, I'm assuming, obviously.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Best friends.

• 46:56Bunnie XO?

  And we'll talk, yeah, we'll talk about you guys' relationship in a minute, but take me on this journey with Good Charlotte. Because I love the fact that you guys picked out the name Good Charlotte. Because just from my, you know, my husband's been in the music industry a long time. I've been around the music industry a long time and I've never heard one bad word about you guys.

• 47:12Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 47:13Bunnie XO?

  I have all, he said, oh, really?

• 47:15Speaker 01

  That's a nice thing to hear.

• 47:16Bunnie XO?

  No, I swear, I always hear how you guys are always trying to lift people up and always trying to help people. That's one thing I've always heard about you guys.

• 47:26Speaker 01

  I'd agree with that.

• 47:27Bunnie XO?

  Which I think is really cool.

• 47:30Bunnie XO?

  I love, like I was saying, I love that you came up with the name Good Charlotte. But so take me on this journey of leaving home. You guys are 18, you're still doing Good Charlotte. Are you playing shows? Where are you at in this moment?

• 47:45Speaker 01

  So at that point, we had the band for a couple of years. We were graduating high school, barely.

• 47:52Bunnie XO?

  Just so you know, I'm looking at notes over here. I'm not over here playing like

• 47:55Speaker 01

  No, I like that. That's smart.

• 47:57Bunnie XO?

  Chess or anything.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  That's very smart. I should have one of those for my podcast.

• 48:00Bunnie XO?

  Oh, it's the best.

• 48:01Speaker 01

  Taking notes.

• 48:02Bunnie XO?

  You sit there and you just scroll through.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  How's my mic level?

• 48:08Bunnie XO?

  Does it have to be so low? I'm so used to hiding behind my microphone at my desk.

• 48:13Speaker 01

  I like to hide too.

• 48:14Bunnie XO?

  Me too. I'll be in the middle of the interview and she'll be like, "Put the mic down." And I'm just like, "Right here."

• 48:21Speaker 01

  I'm a detail guy.

• 48:22Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  When you come to my set, which you have to come sometime, every angle has been carefully toiled over.

• 48:29Bunnie XO?

  Curated. That's how I am too.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna lie about it.

• 48:33Bunnie XO?

  So we're 18. We're going on this journey with, you guys have had the band for a little while.

• 48:38Speaker 01

  So, we were 18. I think we had just graduated. Which barely happened. My mom really wanted me to graduate. And I was, I was, I'm, I have all kinds of, uh, learning disabilities and ADHD and all that stuff, you know? The, the, um, creative stuff. And, um, but at the time, you know, in Southern Maryland, you're, you're, there's not a lot of, uh, you know,

• 49:04Bunnie XO?

  Back then.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Resources for.

• 49:06Bunnie XO?

  Back, that timeframe, nobody cared that we couldn't fucking pay attention in school. I was the same way. I literally could not, I would rock back and forth on my desk. Like, I just couldn't do it.

• 49:16Speaker 01

  And getting an understanding of like dyslexia, learning stuff, ADHD, in my older life helped me actually understand and be way better. Had I learned it then, I think I would have excelled in, in, and really, but it's a different time. So, anyways, barely graduate. We're getting evicted for like, the last time. And we kind of just say to our mom, "We're gone. You, you just take care of..." Our sister was still at home. Uh, my younger sister, who's a year and a half, two years younger. And, um, so we just left and we, we lived down in that, really far down in the country.

• 49:59Speaker 01

  And we like walked down this like country road to this country store that was at the end of the road. And there was a payphone. And we... Called, because there's no cell phones, at least we didn't have one at the time.

• 50:13Bunnie XO?

  Well, I think we had beepers back then.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, there was beepers. We didn't have them, but like they, there were beepers. We called my friend who had a car. He came and picked us up. We went and stayed at his house. And then,

• 50:31Speaker 01

  and then we started figuring it out. We like, we, I remember our first little apartment we got, because we always worked jobs. So I always had to help, we always had to help our mom with the bills and stuff. So we were always working like 40 hours a week, like since we were 14.

• 50:45Bunnie XO?

  Wow.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  So we always worked. So there was, that was like never a problem.

• 50:49Bunnie XO?

  Heavy, heavy load to carry as a teenager.

• 50:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was, it was, it was, at the time, it was just all we knew and I really loved working. So I actually really enjoyed my jobs.

• 51:01Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  So like, we worked at a pizza place. I worked at Food Lion. I worked at Golden Corral. I worked at all these places. And I actually really enjoyed it because I love working. So I felt like I was doing something and then like paying bills and stuff made me feel really good about myself. So I never minded working.

• 51:25Speaker 01

  And my dad worked really hard my whole life. I remember just he was always working. He was like, he was a butcher. And then he would paint houses on the weekends and he was always doing stuff like side jobs. And so I always like understood like you have to just work. And so we left home. We got an apartment over a funeral home.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  It was like this little shitty little apartment. They rented out like they had like two or three little apartments above this like funeral home and this family, like it was really weird.

• 51:57Bunnie XO?

  Were they cooking people down below?

• 51:59Speaker 01

  They were like preparing bodies, like.

• 52:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, like were they cremating them too?

• 52:04Speaker 01

  Uh, maybe. I don't know.

• 52:05Bunnie XO?

  Does it smell like refried beans?

• 52:07Speaker 01

  Uh, you know?

• 52:10Bunnie XO?

  Because I've heard that before.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think I blocked it out, but it was like our first apartment.

• 52:17Bunnie XO?

  But I mean, congratulations for sure.

• 52:19Speaker 01

  And it was weird and they had like a.

• 52:24Speaker 01

  They had like an adult son who lived in one of them who managed the apartments, but he was a drug addict. Oh, no. Weird and he's like partying every night and he would get like out of his mind on like whatever and he would like beat on our door. Oh, no. Very traumatic because we had never, we hadn't even been out in the world. And like You're like, we're going back home, fuck this. Anyways, we, we, we start living on our own and we just start, the whole focus is Good Charlotte, everything is about Good Charlotte. So we're working jobs and we're, we ended up moving up to Annapolis, Maryland, where we, where there was a lot of bars. So we started playing all the bars and that's, we moved up there for that because there was like a local like music, like bar scene.

• 53:09Speaker 01

  And we started playing acoustic sets at bars all the time and we were saving our money. We were buying band equipment, we were booking shows and we just started trying to make it. It was the nineties, you know, so it was all very, make a demo tape, you're passing it out, you're, and then somewhere in there, we started to kind of like build a little local following, you know, and, and, and then we, we just fucking stayed on it and we, we built this kind of local thing. And then we started getting, you know, like opening slots locally when they needed to sell a few hundred more tickets at this venue for this band.

• 53:50Speaker 01

  They would throw us on shows locally because we started kind of, and then from there, we started regionally getting shows in Philly, getting shows in New York and we started, you know, making our way on the East Coast playing and then, and then by 99, the labels were all kind of, you know, one label guy had found our thing, gave it to another guy. So then by 99, we were, we were like some, we were, we were, made a name for ourself. And then the typical kind of classic local radio station plays us, all the labels then kind of jump, then there's a big thing, bidding war, all that stuff. And we end up getting signed and we signed to Sony back in like 99 and

• 54:35Speaker 01

  And then we just never fucking let up.

• 54:36Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Once we got that opportunity.

• 54:39Bunnie XO?

  Foot on their necks.

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, we just, that was easy work.

• 54:43Bunnie XO?

  Mm hmm.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  From the jobs we had had and the hours we put in at our real jobs. The opportunity to get paid, to make a living and, um, you know, um, we signed a big record deal, signed a big publishing deal, uh, bought our mom a place.

• 55:00Bunnie XO?

  No.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Uh, and then just got in the van, started working.

• 55:04Bunnie XO?

  Nobody knows what the van is like. I'm telling you. Jay and I had a van too when we first started off and it is rough.

• 55:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's real. It's real. You're just, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're slogging it out. And then, um, by 2002, you know, we had our second record. That's the one that, uh, everyone kind of knows us for.

• 55:21Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Well, in 2000, you guys started getting a buzz with the song Little Things.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:26Bunnie XO?

  And that's kind of where you guys got your buzz. And then you opened up for, was it Blink 182? And was that like your big first break? Or did I misread that somewhere?

• 55:36Speaker 01

  Well, we did open for Blink on, in like, on like a local show.

• 55:40Bunnie XO?

  Mm hmm.

• 55:41Speaker 01

  Um, I would say probably contributed. It's one of the breaks. I think there was a bunch of that. We got offered the Lit Tour when they were doing the East Coast. We did that. We did Eve 6. We did a bunch of like those radio, um, bands, uh, in the nineties, uh, all that, all that stuff. So we were doing all that stuff and, um, yeah, I would say those were like all big breaks.

• 56:05Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:06Bunnie XO?

  Take me into the album of Lifestyles in the Rich and Famous because I mean, this is when you guys exploded everywhere. I mean, you couldn't look anywhere and there wasn't. Can we bring guy liners back?

• 56:17Speaker 01

  MTV, MTV era.

• 56:19Bunnie XO?

  Do you wear eyeliner anymore?

• 56:21Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:21Bunnie XO?

  Damn it. I love guy liners. Like I'm from that era though. I'm from the eighties hair bands. You know, like I love guy liners and every time I talk about guy liners on the podcast, everybody's always like, what's a guy liner? I'm like, you had to have lived it.

• 56:34Speaker 01

  You had to be there.

• 56:35Bunnie XO?

  You had to have been there.

• 56:36Speaker 01

  We did it. We did it.

• 56:38Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Were you guys inspired from the eighties hair bands with the guy liner stuff?

• 56:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 56:43Bunnie XO?

  No, was it more punk?

• 56:44Speaker 01

  It was like punk thing.

• 56:45Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 56:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like. Yeah, I don't know what it was. It was just like, guess that's how I felt.

• 56:52Bunnie XO?

  Bring it back, bring it back. I love that.

• 56:54Speaker 01

  You get it all messy, like you've been crying.

• 56:56Bunnie XO?

  Oh, love it. My favorite. Yep. Don't get me excited over here.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:00Bunnie XO?

  All right. So Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous was 2002, um, from Young, The Young and the Hopeless.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:07Bunnie XO?

  Take me on this journey because this is where you guys pretty much like catapult. Where are you like mentally? All of that.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  I think we had been running so hard and so fast at it that when it, when that record broke through,

• 57:27Speaker 01

  I don't know if we even looked up to understand or realize at the time. Obviously now at my age, I understand how big that moment was. And it was big, but it, it, it was so, the years we spent before, which I think most artists that have had this experience could probably relate to, is we were so relentlessly working towards success.

• 57:56Bunnie XO?

  And you guys were in survival mode.

• 57:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and we were in survival mode. And, and then

• 58:02Speaker 01

  there's two parts, right? There's the

• 58:06Speaker 01

  experience that everyone else is seeing. So you're watching it on MTV or you're seeing it, even if you're in the industry and you're in another band and you watch a band. All that is just a perception of someone else. It's the experience everyone else is seeing. And then there's the experience you're having. And then there's layers to that.

• 58:26Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Because

• 58:30Speaker 01

  I think the short answer everyone wants to hear is like, yeah, it was great. And it was.

• 58:35Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. I don't want to hear that. I want to hear the real stuff.

• 58:37Speaker 01

  But I think we were so overwhelmed. And

• 58:45Speaker 01

  Also so afraid of losing it when we got it. It was almost like we caught a whale and we were just holding on to try. And, and, and, and that was the, I think that's the,

• 59:01Speaker 01

  the perception of this is just dumb luck.

• 59:06Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 59:06Speaker 01

  Which is not.

• 59:07Bunnie XO?

  Do you think every artist has that? Because I know my husband goes through that also where it's like you, there was a moment where he ran himself into the ground.

• 59:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:16Bunnie XO?

  Because he was just chasing, you know, and he, you kind of have to step back. Did you have that moment too, where you were like running yourself into the ground? Trying to chase this dream?

• 59:26Speaker 01

  We ran ourselves into the ground many times. I don't think we were old enough or mature enough to actually think we could step back.

• 59:35Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  So, one of the things I think, when I see another artist having great success is, my two thoughts I always think, I always go, oh, that's great. Second thought is, oh, man, I hope they're okay. You know?

• 59:50Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 59:50Speaker 01

  Cause there's the, if you're not,

• 59:58Speaker 01

  if you, if you don't,

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  let me, let me think about how to say it. Because I, I'm not, no one should ever be conflicted about their success. Cause they earned it. But they should be thoughtful and they should give themselves the space to decide

• 1:00:21Speaker 01

  what, what they want to do, how they want to participate. How fast do they want to go? How much do they want to do? And not feel like they owe their success anything.

• 1:00:37Bunnie XO?

  How long did it take you to figure that out?

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Uh, like, probably I was 40.

• 1:00:41Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:42Speaker 01

  So, I think one of the, um, you know, one of the things I love about,

• 1:00:50Speaker 01

  your husband is I think he had to take a long winding road to get to his success. So I do think he is more aware of,

• 1:01:09Speaker 01

  I think he's more mature and so he can actually stop even though it's hard to sometimes because you're overwhelmed by the, the, the flow of information is just so much. The deal flow is so wide and, and, and far and reaching and it's all coming at you from all the, that the experience of, of success feels something like that. It's like it's coming at you from all angles and, and you don't wanna, um, you know, the old saying, make hay while the sun shines is real. Like there is a real, there's opportunistic moments where you have to take a, uh, you have to, you have to be in that moment and you wanna be, um, ready and able to capitalize

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  on opportunity and, and what other people will call luck is more just like you were down, going down the road for so fucking long and then you hit this moment where, um, all the work you did stacked up and there was like a momentum thing. There's a bunch of things. You have to have talent. You have to have, uh, smarts. You have to have work ethic. You have to have all that to get to that moment and then, and then you wanna be able to show up for that moment, but then that moment can overwhelm you. So you do have to find a dance and you do have to be aware of, of like, of what makes

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  you happy, uh, you know, you have to be aware of yourself and you have to be able to take a knee here and there so that you don't burn out and just completely implode and, uh, become bitter or become so passive aggressive because you don't feel like you have a choice or become, um, a shell of a person because you've just given everything to the world. And, um, and so I think the, the, that's the complicated nature of, of fame, success and all of that wrapped up, right? Yeah. So in your twenties, I think.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  This is the good part about it happening in your twenties. You're kind of naive.

• 1:03:15Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, and I feel like more resilient.

• 1:03:17Speaker 01

  More resilient in that way.

• 1:03:19Bunnie XO?

  Cause you're, I don't know, it just doesn't sink in.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Oh, there's more novelty in your twenties.

• 1:03:23Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  In your forties, there's less novelty.

• 1:03:25Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  So, you know, it's all novel in your twenties. You, you, you, you haven't seen anything.

• 1:03:31Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  And especially us, we were from nowhere. So we had never been on a plane till we were nineteen. So we were like, everything was fucking amazing.

• 1:03:38Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  Um, and so the, there's a bit of a drug in that where you'll go anywhere and do anything because you've never been to Australia, you've never been to Japan, you've never been to Europe, you've never been, so there, you're, you're, you're primed to go and work and take over the world. And we ran through, you know, from the day we started the band at fifteen to probably thirty-one or thirty-two, we just ran. Non-stop. We would come home for two months, make a record, go right back out and like, but then right around the, you know, um, when I had my kids, I was twenty-nine, thirty, and, um,

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  that was the first time where I was like, whoa, I don't have Nicole and the kids and stuff, that was the first time where I was like, oh, like maybe this feels more important than that. And then, then I stopped and started kind of reflecting on like, what are we doing? How do we work all that? But in our twenties, I think we were just so focused when two thousand and two, when the record hit, um, we knew, you know, we could feel it. But if you ask me to recall some memories, I don't think I could.

• 1:04:52Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  I don't remember anything.

• 1:04:53Bunnie XO?

  Where was your mental health in that, that era?

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  It was not good.

• 1:04:56Bunnie XO?

  Not good, just literally, did you ever deal with addiction issues or alcoholism or any of that? Cause I feel like I've never seen any of that in the headlines.

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  I never had an addiction thing. I had a, a very complicated kind of, uh...

• 1:05:14Speaker 01

  Like strange relationship with alcohol because it was and and drugs because it was so it had destroyed my family and the extended family and I've seen so much bad

• 1:05:28Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:05:28Speaker 01

  That I I never did drugs. So I never had, I never like, I never did cocaine. I never did any drugs because they terrified me because I've seen so many people in my life growing up that had in some way, shape or form ruined their life from cocaine, heroin. Obviously late in the 90s, like OxyContin started in the 2000s. All that stuff, I stayed away from it because it was like, I saw it firsthand. And it always was like so familiar and so bad.

• 1:05:59Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  I was lucky in that way.

• 1:06:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, because some people go one way and some people go the other.

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:05Bunnie XO?

  They've been exposed to as much as you have.

• 1:06:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, so alcohol was something that I probably abused in some ways without knowing it because I think I was medicating like some deep PTSD, trauma, depression, that kind of stuff. So I found that out later because when I started working on myself, any want or need or because I never went out like, oh, I'm gonna drink, but then I'd find myself in some moments like, like, how did I get here? How did I get blacked out?

• 1:06:43Bunnie XO?

  I feel like that happened in the 2000s a lot.

• 1:06:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, but there was a lot of pain that was masked and you didn't know how to unpack it.

• 1:06:52Bunnie XO?

  Yes, absolutely.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  And then in my 30s, I did that work and now I could say like, I don't drink. And I'm not drink, but I don't drink.

• 1:07:02Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  So it's not that I keep myself from drinking. I just don't have a, I think I'm just like in my body.

• 1:07:08Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  So I don't like feeling out of my body.

• 1:07:11Bunnie XO?

  I don't like it either. Now that I'm sober, I can't, I can't do it.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  And I think part of why we drink and use drugs is to get out of our body because we, you know, so I think there's a big thing with that. I think if it's painful to be in yourself, you want to be out of yourself. And so I think. It's in my adult life, that's not something I relate to.

• 1:07:31Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  In my twenties, I think, uh, I always had like a, a conflicted relationship with alcohol because of my dad. So

• 1:07:38Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  I was always something I was never really comfortable with, but found sometimes, of course, I

• 1:07:46Bunnie XO?

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• 1:09:00Speaker 01

  No, because if you listen to the song, we are saying, kind of, give it to me.

• 1:09:06Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:09:08Speaker 01

  I want it.

• 1:09:09Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:09Speaker 01

  You know, explicitly saying like, let's rob them. But, but really saying like, if it's so bad, right? A naive, a naive view, but it was honest.

• 1:09:22Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:09:24Speaker 01

  I realize now fame isn't real. It's a, it's a byproduct of, uh, of lots of things. Uh, you can manufacture fame, you can buy fame, you can, fame is not something that I think is valuable, but I think it's, I think it's something you have to.

• 1:09:46Bunnie XO?

  It's a necessary evil, depending on what you are trying to do.

• 1:09:50Speaker 01

  I think it's something that you have to manage. And I think that it's

• 1:09:59Speaker 01

  It's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's not even like, I don't even say unfortunately. It's something that comes with achieving, um, things. And so, but in the modern world, everyone's famous. So you can have, you can, so then, then you start to kind of look at like, well, what kind of fame do you want to have?

• 1:10:24Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Right?

• 1:10:25Bunnie XO?

  At what level?

• 1:10:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, you could be, um, uh, uh, there are internet personalities that, um, make fame for themselves by pissing people off.

• 1:10:37Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Speaker 01

  There's people who make fame for themselves by degrading themselves. There's, and it's all a choice. I, I, I've come to like a more like surgical feeling towards it, like, um, you can choose it and you can also choose to, um,

• 1:11:00Speaker 01

  avoid it sometimes.

• 1:11:01Bunnie XO?

  Yes.

• 1:11:02Speaker 01

  And so I think, I always tell my kids, I'm like, if you, trust me, you don't want to be known for, um,

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  don't be so in a rush to be known.

• 1:11:18Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:19Speaker 01

  Like you will be happy if you're known for doing something you love.

• 1:11:23Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  It's so much more sustainable and enjoyable when you're doing something you love. You can deal with the fame once it gets old, because it gets old. And you, they always say like, you think you want to be rich and famous, try getting rich first. Like, it's really true, like, but fame is novel. The experience of like, oh my God, you know who I am. That's a, that's a real, everyone who's interested in that feeling, go for it. I'm not saying no, but like, it'll get old and then you'll be navigating it and you'll be managing it. And it, and it, and it turns on everyone. But, um, it's a double edged sword.

• 1:11:57Bunnie XO?

  Yes. That's so real that it turns on everyone. I'm going to use that from now on. I'm stealing it from you.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  And it is just what it's the nature, right? It's just the nature. So to sit here and And feel one way or another about it is a lost cause, it's unproductive.

• 1:12:13Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:14Speaker 01

  But to acknowledge that it's a thing and that there are moments where it can be useful.

• 1:12:20Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  It can, you can shine a light on something that you're passionate about, or you can help people. Sure.

• 1:12:27Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:28Speaker 01

  But these days, anyone can help. If you get a GoFundMe trending on Twitter, you can help people and you'll get a little famous. So it's kind of like this abstraction that is not to me like,

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  it's, we have to update what we call fame.

• 1:12:48Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:49Speaker 01

  Because the old idea of fame is like from the eighties, like, he can't go anywhere. No one can go anywhere.

• 1:12:54Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:55Speaker 01

  If you do some shit out there in the world, someone's gonna film you and you'll be famous. Or you'll, you'll, like, that's the world we live in. So I think we have to update how we look at fame. And is it good or bad? It's both.

• 1:13:11Speaker 01

  In any given day, you know? And I also think that like, it's just an antiquated idea that like, like, all of it's kind of like. But I would say this, I'll bet you any amount of money that like,

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  if Jelly Roll wants to go out to a restaurant.

• 1:13:34Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:36Speaker 01

  He's gotta measure the cost. So what's the cost? Well, if I'm feeling like tired, I've been going for weeks. I give a lot when people talk to me, I listen. And like, there's different levels of what you give. Some people don't, some people don't listen. Some people are, but it's different, you know? So it depends on how you, how you move through the world and what you want to give. And, and, and so you have to measure like, what's that gonna cost me if I go, if I just want to go to that restaurant? Well, I'm probably gonna have to talk to every fucking person. That's not bad.

• 1:14:11Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:14:11Speaker 01

  We say it, it sounds bad. It's not bad. It's just real.

• 1:14:14Bunnie XO?

  No, I don't think it sounds bad.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  So I, I look at it more just like real.

• 1:14:17Bunnie XO?

  Yeah. Now, you're dropping gems of wisdom here, and I really think that a lot of people need to hear what you have to say, because it's honestly refreshing to hear, especially in a world that chases nothing but clout. To hear your perspective on it is, I like it.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Well, I, I feel like I just am a normal guy who found himself in a, an abnormal place. And I observe everyone, and I don't really have an opinion on how anyone should live, other than like, how they live and what, what they decide. And um,

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  I just feel like, uh, it's, it's a funny place to be, right? Like, I'm surrounded by people who, who have all, all different levels of successes. And um, I've gotten to observe a lot of stuff and um,

• 1:15:14Speaker 01

  and I feel like I've learned at this age, um, just how to be myself. And um, I try to just be honest and say what I think. And um, and, and I think the world needs to define things all the time, and as good or bad, or this or that. And I think fame is a funny one, because, like, if we recalibrated what we consider fame,

• 1:15:45Speaker 01

  everyone's famous.

• 1:15:46Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, absolutely. What is it like having Lionel Richie as a father-in-law? Because I am a huge Lionel Richie fan.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am too. Everyone's a, everyone's a huge Lionel fan.

• 1:15:56Bunnie XO?

  How can you not be, you know?

• 1:15:58Speaker 01

  What a, what a, what an incredible,

• 1:16:04Speaker 01

  force of, of nature.

• 1:16:06Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:07Speaker 01

  Lionel is. Um.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, to be his son-in-law is one thing, because there's a real person there. Who's got a lot of wisdom and a lot of experience and a lot of.

• 1:16:24Speaker 01

  He's just unique. I've never met anyone like him. And the fact that we're, we have a really nice relationship. So, but then he's also like this legend and he, again, like another person. He's, he can't go in the world anywhere. Without everyone. It, you very rarely you see those phenomenon type, like, I feel very lucky because I get to move through the world a lot.

• 1:16:50Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:51Speaker 01

  Once or twice a day, someone comes up to me and is like, and it's more like. They relate to me from another time. So it's actually very, for me, very comfortable.

• 1:17:00Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  I don't need to feel relevant. To, to the modern culture. I don't need to feel relevant. I feel very like happy. To have had that experience, but now to exist in a place where I get to. Have like a, a lot of normality, you know, I can move through the world and it's, it's pretty easy. But I see Lionel and he's, he, everywhere he goes, he, he's. It's, everyone loves him and, and he's that guy. He loves, he, he gives, he gives and gives and gives. So sometimes I feel bad for him.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  I think he's been doing it so long, he's.

• 1:17:44Speaker 01

  It's all he knows. And I think that he's got such a legacy and it's such an overwhelmingly kind of. The size of it is so big that I think, I, I mostly just kind of always. Worry about people that are living under the. Pressure of that, you know, and especially my family, you know, someone in my family. I, I would say the same thing about Cameron. I like see what she's. You know, she, she definitely has figured out a way to move through the world, but she can't go anywhere without everyone going, oh my God, that's Cameron, you know? And um, so there's, the privacy is hard and privacy is such a wonderful thing.

• 1:18:23Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a treasure.

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, to be somewhere and not have any eyes on you and to be.

• 1:18:30Bunnie XO?

  That's why we're getting a house out here, because in Nashville, we can't go anywhere.

• 1:18:33Speaker 01

  Oh, Nashville's hard for you.

• 1:18:34Bunnie XO?

  We move around, no problem.

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Right, it's easier for you guys to move around.

• 1:18:37Bunnie XO?

  So much easier out here.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  That's nice.

• 1:18:39Bunnie XO?

  I couldn't even imagine how, we're nowhere near Lionel's legendary status. I couldn't imagine how that poor man has to move.

• 1:18:47Speaker 01

  Well, I would actually say that I think, um,

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  I, I would say I think that Jelly Roll is about as big as you can get right now.

• 1:18:59Bunnie XO?

  Well, I'm married to the guy, so I don't think he's that cool.

• 1:19:01Speaker 01

  I think that you've been on the whole.

• 1:19:03Bunnie XO?

  No, I'm just kidding, I'm totally kidding.

• 1:19:04Speaker 01

  But here's the thing, is I think that you've been on the whole journey.

• 1:19:07Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:08Speaker 01

  And it kind of expands like that when you're on the whole thing. And you may not eat, sometimes you may not be aware of how, how big it is, sometimes. But um, but, but I would say with, with Lionel, I see him and he handles it with, with class. And he's super graceful and he's very generous with people. But I, I think, um, you know, in the quiet moments, uh, when we spend time together, it's at home. So I do feel like I get to.

• 1:19:44Bunnie XO?

  Is he like the dad you never had?

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  You know, in some ways, it's interesting. I always felt like I couldn't have a dad, so I don't know if I let anyone be my dad. But he is the only dad I have.

• 1:19:59Bunnie XO?

  Right.

• 1:20:01Speaker 01

  And rest in peace to my, my, my dad who, um, we had a, we, we had a really nice relationship when he passed away. And I do feel like when he, when he died.

• 1:20:19Speaker 01

  The last, uh, it's been seven years. It'll be seven years in March. I've been closer to him than I ever was. Like, it's so interesting, like spiritually, it's actually made me, I feel like a more spiritual person. I do feel like deeply connected to my, my dad. Um, but Lionel is my only dad.

• 1:20:37Bunnie XO?

  Earthbound dad.

• 1:20:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:41Speaker 01

  But there are other, there are a couple other men that, um, are like father figures to me.

• 1:20:48Bunnie XO?

  That's amazing.

• 1:20:49Speaker 01

  And I would say I'm really lucky. I have a couple.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  My brother-in-law, his dad.

• 1:20:57Speaker 01

  There's a couple of guys who I, who I, who, who I love deeply and have been incredibly supportive. And, um, I feel very, very lucky, uh, to, uh, to have them in my life. But Lionel's, yeah, Lionel is, is all, he has been. He's been the dad. He's in a lot of ways and, um,

• 1:21:19Speaker 01

  I think, uh, I'm lucky to have him as a dad-in-law. I've heard horror stories about father-in-laws.

• 1:21:24Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:24Speaker 01

  And it's not been that with him. He's, from day one, he was, he, he, he was like,

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  just wrapped me up, uh, always supported me, always loved me. And, um, we have a really nice relationship.

• 1:21:38Bunnie XO?

  Good.

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  We have a friendship.

• 1:21:39Bunnie XO?

  So let's talk about you and Benji's relationship. I, I heard you say in a, uh, in an interview that he's kind of like the leader of you two.

• 1:21:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:47Bunnie XO?

  How do you guys establish that?

• 1:21:50Speaker 01

  I think it's natural.

• 1:21:51Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:51Speaker 01

  I think I'm more like,

• 1:21:56Speaker 01

  um, I'm, I'm, it's not that I'm more friendly, but I am a little bit more like searching out. And he's a little bit more like building things. He likes to stay in one place and like build, build the thing we're working on. If that makes sense.

• 1:22:11Bunnie XO?

  What, what are you guys' similarities and what are, what are you guys opposite in? Are you guys more alike in ways? Are you guys more opposite in ways?

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  I am, I mean, we're alike a lot, especially if you saw us together. We're twins, but, um, and I do think that we both have the same values, like. Both been married a long time, both

• 1:22:32Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:32Speaker 01

  Super focused on that.

• 1:22:34Bunnie XO?

  You guys both married Virgo women, too.

• 1:22:36Speaker 01

  Virgos.

• 1:22:36Bunnie XO?

  Which is soulmate signs to Pisces.

• 1:22:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:38Bunnie XO?

  So.

• 1:22:39Speaker 01

  But it's very Virgo.

• 1:22:40Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  By the way, like Virgo wasn't a word to me until I married Nicole.

• 1:22:46Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:46Speaker 01

  And now it's like such an important word. You know how someone's a Virgo.

• 1:22:50Bunnie XO?

  Why he knows best.

• 1:22:52Speaker 01

  You know how you know someone's a Virgo?

• 1:22:53Bunnie XO?

  How?

• 1:22:53Speaker 01

  They tell you every fucking

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  day.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  But, so we're very similar in that way. I'd say he is more of a builder. And I'm a little bit more like a dreamer.

• 1:23:07Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  And together, we kind of work like we lock in.

• 1:23:11Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, that's the perfect combination, though, to have, especially as twins and that have the same passion and building this

• 1:23:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:17Bunnie XO?

  band and everything together.

• 1:23:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:19Bunnie XO?

  So, yeah, no, I admire you guys' relationship as well. And I'm gonna ask you one more question. If everything disappeared tomorrow, fame, money, and legacy, who would Joel Madden still be?

• 1:23:30Speaker 01

  Easy. Would have no problem.

• 1:23:33Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:34Speaker 01

  I would just be a dad and a husband and

• 1:23:42Speaker 01

  a brother and a friend. And I'd be super, I'd be fine. I, I, I have no problem. I, I could get a job tomorrow doing anything that I, literally anything I have to do to take care of my family. I'm lucky I get to do what I love, but I don't fucking, I'm not precious about it. I think it's been incredibly, it's been an incredible blessing to do music for a living. It's an easy job. It has its moments. There's silliness you gotta deal with sometimes, but, and I care about the songs. I wanna, you know, artistically, wanna have a legacy.

• 1:24:22Speaker 01

  But if, if it got fucking thrown away, if it got taken, I don't care. I care about my kids. I, I care about my wife. I care about my friends. I care about actually just being happy and like, I could go fishing, or I could have a cup of coffee, or I could go,

• 1:24:44Speaker 01

  you know, move to the fucking middle of nowhere and be happy if I have to. I'm gonna do this as long as I can because I believe we're supposed to work as hard as we can with like, The opportunities we have, we should try. And I think we should try to do the best we can. But like, if you told me, I'm taking it all and you've got to go be nobody, I'd be totally fine. I'd be happy to be nobody. So whatever nobody means, I'm just saying, like, I think I do value this stuff.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  I respect it. But I actually just care about being, you know, someone that my, my family, my friends, and people that I meet every day, like real people that if we're at a restaurant or a coffee shop or wherever I'm at, respect when they meet.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  So I'm not up against some, I, I don't feel like I'm up against anything. I just, I want to work the best I can. I want to do the best I can, but I don't care. I really don't. I care about it in the sense of wanting to achieve. But like if you said, it's all gone tomorrow, I'd be fine.

• 1:25:57Bunnie XO?

  I think you've built quite the legacy and I think everything's gonna be just fine. And I'm so proud of your growth and just getting to sit here and talk with you has been really amazing.

• 1:26:07Speaker 01

  It's, I'm such a fan of, of, of you guys.

• 1:26:10Bunnie XO?

  Thank you.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  You guys are such a, that's why I came.

• 1:26:13Bunnie XO?

  Thank you.

• 1:26:13Speaker 01

  I just think that seeing a couple, two people, building a life, building a family, building, you know, and finding themselves and working on themselves. You guys are very open about it, which I think is really good. That's an example for people. And I think we all come from similar places and we all make mistakes. We all have like, we're calling whatever you want, like, it's just real. And I think that like, it's a beautiful thing. I'm really, I, I've, I've always been rooting for you guys.

• 1:26:50Bunnie XO?

  Thank you.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  And I just am really proud of you guys. I think that. It takes a lot of work.

• 1:26:55Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, you know, if anybody knows, it's you. I mean, you guys, you've been with your wife for how long and just the journey that you guys have had to do together.

• 1:27:02Speaker 01

  You gotta show up.

• 1:27:03Bunnie XO?

  No, we appreciate the kind words too. Like, we appreciate having people on our side, so.

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm such a fan. I just, I'm always rooting for you guys.

• 1:27:12Bunnie XO?

  We gotta get Jay on your podcast.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  What's that?

• 1:27:14Bunnie XO?

  We gotta get Jay on your podcast.

• 1:27:15Speaker 01

  Anytime.

• 1:27:15Bunnie XO?

  He does everybody else's podcast, so.

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  You know what?

• 1:27:19Bunnie XO?

  I always bust his balls.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  It's an open door. It's an open door. It always happens when it's meant to happen. It's an open door. I will love that, but also, like, it'll happen.

• 1:27:29Bunnie XO?

  No, he's actually, it's so funny, because he's so in tune with everything that I don't think he's in tune with, but he's like, who's coming on the podcast today? And I was like, Joel. And he's like, oh, yeah, he's like the one with Artist Friendly and Good Charlotte. He's like, Guyliner. And I was like, yeah. So he loves you two.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a big fan.

• 1:27:45Bunnie XO?

  Yay, I love that. Well, we'll get you guys together, because you guys have to meet, for sure.

• 1:27:48Speaker 01

  Well, when you guys move out here.

• 1:27:50Bunnie XO?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:50Speaker 01

  Tell us.

• 1:27:51Bunnie XO?

  Okay.

• 1:27:51Speaker 01

  We'll have dinner.

• 1:27:52Bunnie XO?

  Awesome.

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  Do a double date.

• 1:27:53Bunnie XO?

  Yeah, that'll be fun. Yeah, that'll be awesome. Joel, thank you for coming on the podcast.

• 1:27:57Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:27:58Bunnie XO?

  I appreciate you. And thank you, guys, for tuning in to another episode of Done Blonde. I'll see you guys next week. Bye.