Pod Insights DISGRACELAND Johnny Thunders: Murder or Overdose? About this episode A punk junkie nightmare in a New Orleans hotel. A turf war with Tom Petty’s Heartbreakers. A poisonous friendship with Dee Dee Ramone and a doomed alliance with Wayne Kramer. Missing cash, hotshot rumors, and a body in Room 37. Listen to find out how Johnny Thunders’ death went from an open-and-shut overdose case to a sadder, stranger rock ‘n roll myth.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 This is exactly right.
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0:43 Speaker 02 My name is Jessa. One of the things I love the most about working for UnitedHealthcare is that everybody matters. Every moment matters. There's a person behind every problem. I care because it's what I was put on this earth to do.
0:59 Speaker 03 I'm Ben, and I work at UnitedHealthcare. I am just one piece of a larger puzzle, but every piece matters. It's more than just work. We want to make the healthcare system better for everyone. I care because I want to make a difference. That's what committed to care means to me.
1:14 Jake Brennan? I like a story with a twist as much as anyone, but some of the best traditions don't have one. They just started and kept going. That's something that's great about Chateau St. Michelle. They've been leading Washington wine since 1967 with wines that are balanced, expressive, and easy to enjoy. Choosing the right bottle shouldn't feel complicated. It should be something you open with confidence every time. So for once, here's a story with no twist, just a good bottle. Redefine your rituals with Chateau St. Michelle. Disgrace Land is a production of Double Elvis.
2:05 Jake Brennan? This is a story about heartbreakers. It's about a hotel room and a body on the floor. It's about corporate rock dreams and punk junkie nightmares and the distance between the two. It's also a story about conspiracy theories and rock and roll myths, about self fulfilling prophecies and stacks of missing cash. This is a story about Johnny Thunders, which means it's a story about great music. Some of the greatest and most authentic music to come out of the punk era and beyond. Unlike that clip I played for you at the top of the show. That wasn't great music.
2:46 Jake Brennan? That was a preset loop from my Mellotron called "Second Line Stompbox MK2." I played you that loop because I can't afford the rights to "You're in Love" by Wilson Phillips. And why would I play you that specific slice of nepo cheese? Could I afford it? Because that was the number one song in America on April 23rd, 1991. And that was the day that Johnny Thunders was found dead in a New Orleans hotel. His money, guitars, and clothes, gone. And the rest of the story already beginning to write itself. On this episode, rock and roll myths, self fulfilling prophecies, heartbreakers, junkies,
3:30 Jake Brennan? and Johnny Thunders. I'm Jake Brennan, and this is Disgrace Land.
4:01 Jake Brennan? When you think of a musical icon who was the walking, talking definition of how rock and roll looks and sounds and feels, which is to say, raw, switchblade sharp, and effortlessly cool, and who also possessed both street tough swagger and deep vulnerability, you think of Johnny Thunders. He's your favorite rock and roller's favorite rock and roller, whether you're down with Joe Strummer, Nikki Sixx, Paul Westerberg, The Cult's Billy Duffy, or Social Distortions' Mike Ness. First in The New York Dolls, and later in The Heartbreakers and his own solo career, Johnny Thunders distilled rebellion, attitude, and God-given musicality down to a high-proof,
4:45 Jake Brennan? red-hot essence. But one of the reasons that Johnny Thunders was this mythic avatar was because he embodied the whole package of rock and roll, the good, the bad, and the ugly. He was an addict, he was self-destructive, and at the age of 38, he was dead. Chapter One: The Body in Room 37. The St. Peter House Hotel, these days known as The Inn on St. Peter, sits on the corner of St. Peter and Burgundy Streets in the heart of the French Quarter in New Orleans.
5:28 Jake Brennan? Built in the year 1805, it's a quintessential Crescent City building with Spanish-style architecture and a wraparound second-floor balcony. It was here, on the afternoon of Tuesday, April 23, 1991, that housekeeper Mildred Coleman was going from room to room, making her usual rounds, swapping out towels and trash bags and so on. At 3:30, she arrived in Room 37. She knocked on the door. There was no answer. The room number stuck out in her mind because earlier that morning at around 8:00 a.m., the front desk clerk had called room 37 after a series of loud, disturbing noises. The occupant had answered, and the noises had ceased.
6:13 Jake Brennan? But now, there was an absence of sound coming from inside the room. Mildred knocked again, and nothing. Now, this wasn't unusual. Hotel guests were in and out at all times of the day and night. So she pulled a key from her pocket, slid it into the lock, turned the handle, and pushed the door open. The rank smell of sweat hit her nose first. And there was something else, too. Something rancid, but she couldn't put her finger on it. The room was a mess. The sheets had been ripped from the bed, and what appeared to be empty prescription pill bottles were strewn across the floor. And then Mildred saw him. The occupant of room 37.
6:55 Jake Brennan? One John Gonzalez, aka Johnny Thunders. He was lying on the floor, stuffed halfway under the dresser. His body was bent into a shape like the letter U. Mildred gasped, instinctively throwing her hand up to cover her mouth. And the next thing she knew, she was screaming. Across the street from the St. Peter House, singer-songwriter Willie DeVille, formerly of CBGB mainstays Mink DeVille, sat on a stoop outside his apartment strumming an acoustic guitar. Just one year prior, Willie had beaten Johnny to his dream of coming to New Orleans and making an R&B record with local musicians.
7:39 Jake Brennan? But now, it was Johnny's turn to beat Willie. Johnny Thunders over here, burning out, while Willie DeVille merely faded away. Willie watched as police cars began flooding the corner outside the hotel. A short while later, the cops carried Johnny's body out. Willie had seen a lot of things, but he'd never seen a body contorted into a shape like a pretzel before. It was so undignified. But Willie knew his friend deserved more. And he also knew that rock and roll was nothing without its myths. So when the local press started to sniff around, when they asked questions, Willie DeVille lied and told them that Johnny had died with his guitar in his hands.
8:20 Jake Brennan? In reality, though, Johnny Thunders' guitar was gone. Johnny had been robbed blind, or so it appeared. But New Orleans PD, they didn't care about a dead junkie's missing stuff. All they were interested in was closing the case and closing it fast. So that's what they did. Six days later, on April 29th, the city coroner's office investigator, John Gagliano, told the Associated Press that Johnny Thunders had died of an overdose due to the quantity of methadone and cocaine found in his body. In their eyes, it was open and shut. A drug fiend is as a drug fiend does, and all of that. And some of Johnny's friends, like Willie DeVille across the street with his guitar,
9:05 Jake Brennan? weren't all that surprised. For others, however, not only was the cop's conclusion wrong, it had all the signs of a cover-up. And that's when the truth came calling.
9:23 Jake Brennan? DeeDee Ramone picked up the phone while scratching away at his bedhead. His bleary eyes could hardly make out the time on the clock. "Yeah?" he snarled into the receiver. "DeeDee," a voice was saying, "it's Stevie." At this, DeeDee Ramone sobered up a bit, enough to comprehend what Stevie was about to tell him. Stevie Klassen was the other guitarist in Johnny Thunders' touring band at the time of Johnny's death, and DeeDee knew he was hurting. DeeDee, for one, had his own complicated relationship with Johnny Thunders over the years. Years ago, that little shit had stolen DeeDee's song "Chinese Rocks" and made it his own. And then, when he was deep into the throes of junkie addiction, Johnny Thunders, well,
10:07 Jake Brennan? he reverted to junkie compulsions, like stealing DeeDee's shit so that he could sell it for more drugs. And at some point, DeeDee Ramone had just had enough. So he poured Drano, or Clorox, or some chemical cleaning agent, he couldn't exactly remember. He poured it all over Johnny's stuff, and then he pissed on Johnny's clothes, and then, the piece de resistance, he took Johnny's guitar, one of those cheap Les Paul juniors that he loved so much, and he broke that fucker in half.
10:36 Jake Brennan? These were the thoughts running through Didi Ramon's head as Stevie was telling him all about what had happened at the hotel in New Orleans. That when the cops got to Johnny's room, all they found were empty bottles of methadone and a single syringe floating in the toilet. Everything else was gone. His guitars, those nice silk suits that he bought on the road, his drugs, his passport. And here was the real kicker. Thousands of dollars in cash just disappeared. We're talking 10, maybe $20,000 total. And the pieces of trash, who stole all those things? These vultures disguised as so-called friends? They made Johnny Thunders their mark as soon as he rolled into town wearing those nice threads, his pockets lined with money.
11:21 Jake Brennan? They took him out, stroked his ego, this punk poet laureate who'd never really got his due, especially here in the States. But he got it that night. And once they gave it to him, once they lulled him into a doped-up complacency with hero worship and drugs, that's when they went in for the kill. It was true, the cops said, Johnny did die of an overdose. But the overdose wasn't delivered by his own hand. He was given a hotshot by some thieving degenerates. To put it plainly, Johnny Thunders was murdered.
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12:45 Jake Brennan? I like a story with a twist as much as anyone, but some of the best traditions don't have one. They just started and kept going. That's something that's great about Chateau St. Michelle. They've been leading Washington wine since 1967 with wines that are balanced, expressive, and easy to enjoy. Choosing the right bottle shouldn't feel complicated. It should be something you open with confidence every time. So for once, here's a story with no twist, just a good bottle. Redefine your rituals with Chateau St. Michelle.
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13:50 Jake Brennan? Chapter 2. Born to Lose.
13:55 Jake Brennan? Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers? Who the fuck are those guys? We're the Heartbreakers. Jerry Nolan, one of Johnny's closest friends and his drummer first in the New York Dolls, and now a member of Johnny's new band, The Heartbreakers. The original Heartbreakers, that is. Not that big-toothy Tom Petty and his so-called Heartbreakers. Jerry Nolan, he was reading all about this Tom Petty character in the paper and getting more and more pissed off with every word. It was 1976. Johnny Thunders' Heartbreakers were everything that Tom Petty's Heartbreakers were not. Tom Petty was the corporate rock dream. Johnny
14:36 Jake Brennan? Thunders was the punk junkie nightmare. No one wanted to sign Johnny Thunders and his band. They were dopers and dropouts and weren't to be trusted. They missed shows. They shot heroin. Never mind that they were playing some of the most thrilling rock and roll in the world at the time, as one critic wrote in the UK after seeing a Heartbreakers show, quote, "The band plays rock and roll like guns fire bullets, like steamrollers flatten tarmac, like thunder rolls, like trees fall, like hell like you've never heard before," unquote. It's ironic because, besides the music, all the other things that made Johnny Thunders and The Heartbreakers super authentic were the same things that made them a bad investment. They were, as Johnny sang in one of his trademark songs, "born to lose."
15:21 Jake Brennan? Tom Petty clearly could not relate. "Tom Petty," Jerry Nolan said, "was born to be punched." "Fuck it," Johnny said, "let's call ourselves the Junkies instead." "Are you fucking kidding me? We'll never get airplay with a name like that." "Who needs airplay?" Johnny laughed. "I'd rather get a reaction." Getting a reaction, getting attention, that was the true meaning of rock and roll in the eyes of Johnny Thunders. And when attention finally came, it didn't come from America, but instead from across the pond. First, in the form of the Sex Pistols manager Malcolm McLaren, who got The Heartbreakers booked on a tour with The Pistols and The Clash, and then, via Chris Stamp and Kim
16:03 Jake Brennan? Lambert, The Who's former managers, who signed The Heartbreakers to their label Track Records. Johnny and Jerry, along with guitarist Walter Lur and bassist Billy Rath, who'd replaced original member Richard Hell, soon found themselves in a London recording studio making a record. That record, LAMF, which was a notorious New York City graffiti tag that Warren gangs used to scare each other off with, and which stood for "like a motherfucker," which is also permanently inked on my arm, but I digress. LAMF should have been one of the biggest records of the newly emerging punk rock movement when it was released in 1977. I mean, it is one of the greatest, but it's not as ubiquitous as records by The Ramones, The Clash, and The Pistols. And there are a few reasons for this.
16:48 Jake Brennan? One, the band wrestled over how the record should sound, which resulted in a really muddy mix when it was first pressed. Two, LAMF never got a US release. In fact, it wasn't issued stateside until just a few years ago. And three, Track Records went bankrupt shortly after the album hit store shelves. Unlike Tom Petty's Heartbreakers, Johnny Thunders' Heartbreakers did not survive. They were over before Tom's second album even dropped.
17:18 Jake Brennan? And so Johnny Gonzalez, a one-time teenage baseball prodigy from Queens who gave the cold shoulder to major league scouts so that he could court a life out on the skids where self-sabotage was a badge of honor, a boy who rechristened himself Johnny Thunders, a gnome de rock stolen either from a DC Comics character or a kink song, depending on which version of the story speaks to you today, the great Johnny Thunders made his equally great solo debut album So Alone in 1978 at the age of 25. So Alone is tremendous stuff. It's got instant classic original songs like "You Can't Put Your Arms Around a Memory." It's got covers of tunes by surf and girl groups like The Shanté's and The Shangri-Las.
18:01 Jake Brennan? And it's got supporting performances by a who's who of rockers at the time, The Pretenders, Chrissy Hyne, The Sex Pistols, Steve Jones and Paul Cook, Thin Lizzy's Phil Lynott, and Steve Marriott from The Small Faces and Humble Pie. But like LAMF before it, So Alone never got released in the States. And despite the noise being made out on the margins by punks like Johnny Thunders, 1978 was actually ruled by the Bee Gees' Saturday Night Fever and Billy Joel's 52nd Street. At least in America. Whatever. America could have its Tom Petty, its Billy fucking Joel, and it could have John Travolta peacocking down the streets of Brooklyn. Johnny Thunders meanwhile, went looking for action in a part of the world that paid him
18:46 Jake Brennan? some well-deserved respect, and that paid him in cash. And it was there that Johnny wasn't just a hot ticket, he was front-page news.
19:00 Jake Brennan? 1982, Stockholm, Sweden. Johnny Thunders tried to ration out the dope so that it would last him three, four days at least. But this time, just like every other time, he couldn't help himself. He did it all. And doing it all doesn't mean he did too much. He knew what he could tolerate, exactly how much would get him off without taking him too far over the edge. But now, as the plane hit the tarmac, he was no longer holding, and none of the other guys in the band were either. He downed the last of the methadone like a cold cherry Coke. And speaking of Coke Coke, the powdered kind, that was gone too. Someone had told him that Sweden put little stashes of Valium in the medical emergency boxes on airplanes.
19:44 Jake Brennan? So now, he and his bass player at the moment, Luigi Scorsese, were trying to break open the little red box like a couple of dope-sit prospectors at the head of a rumored goldmine. And they were doing this despite the very loud and urgent protesting of the stewardesses, who were reminding Johnny and Luigi in broken English that passengers were not allowed to tamper with the emergency kits. The stewardesses figured something like this would happen. Johnny Thunders had been in the country for only a few days, and already he was the talk of the town, as they say. But not in a good way. The local papers said it all. "A drugged, human wreck," read one such headline in stark black font. And another simply said, "Burnt out, wasted."
20:28 Jake Brennan? Just days earlier, Johnny had performed on a popular primetime Swedish television show. He showed up three hours late to the taping, only to stumble around the stage, slithering, slouching, sliding into the audience and slurring his words. And there was a tinge of resentment in every single word he spoke and every move he made, as if he'd forgotten that this country, this show, this packed house, unlike some other places back home, they all actually wanted him there. It was like he looked out at the crowd and suddenly was...somewhere else. The punk junkie nightmare was never-ending. And now, here was Johnny Thunders, the villain and the victim, stepping off the plane in Stockholm, thinking he was about to go play another show, only to walk into the arms of
21:12 Jake Brennan? several impatient police officers, who had been notified ahead of time by the concerned stewardesses. Johnny had no dough, not even that elusive, fabled stash of Valium. And if they were taking him away, then the tour was cancelled for sure, which meant less dough coming in. All while that other more famous heartbreaker, Tom Petty, was riding a big video hit on the idiot box with his song, "You Got Lucky." Johnny laughed just thinking about it. "Yeah, Tom, you're one lucky fuck. One lucky MTV-approved fuck."
21:52 Jake Brennan? And Johnny, Johnny was born to lose. That wasn't just a song or a manifesto. It was a prophecy. But was it a self fulfilling one? As the weeks and months and years rolled on, that's what audiences wanted to know. And that's what drew them to the shows, more than Johnny's talent or his legend or any of it. They wanted to be there when it happened, watching it like a car wreck in slow motion. Watch Johnny lose control. Watch Johnny fall down. Watch Johnny die.
22:32 Speaker 00 We'll be right back after this.
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23:08 Jake Brennan? I like a story with a twist as much as anyone, but some of the best traditions don't have one. They just started and kept going. That's something that's great about Chateau St. Michelle. They've been leading Washington wine since 1967 with wines that are balanced, expressive and easy to enjoy. Choosing the right bottle shouldn't feel complicated. It should be something you open with confidence every time. So for once, here's a story with no twist, just a good bottle. Redefine your rituals with Chateau St. Michelle.
23:39 Speaker 00 Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with IBM's Ana Paula Acees about what digital sovereignty actually means in the age of AI.
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24:13 Jake Brennan? Chapter three, hard times in the big easy.
24:19 Jake Brennan? Johnny Thunders was in Japan, but he was dreaming of New Orleans. He was playing his friend Willie Deville's latest album, Victory Mixture, on repeat on the tour bus. Willie made the record in New Orleans with local legends like Dr. John, Alan Toussaint, and The Meters. You never know that the guy singing these tunes got to start playing grimy New York institutions like Max's Kansas City. Willie sounded like the real article, and what he'd created with this record was exactly the sort of thing that Johnny had wanted to do for some time now. But Johnny had no time at the present. He was preparing to record an album of 60s cover songs with some Japanese musicians, and he had plans for an acoustic album as well.
25:03 Jake Brennan? He continued to use, but once again, his supply had run out. He became so dope-sick that he had to be checked into a hospital in Tokyo. If doctors there saw the lump on his neck, they didn't say anything. People were used to seeing all kinds of abnormalities on Johnny's skin. Heartbreaker Walter Lorr once said that Johnny's arms and legs were covered in so many track marks that they looked like pizza slices. Which means that some strange new lump was gonna have to work overtime to really stand out as a problem. Besides, Johnny had other problems, like this need for a fix. He hopped a plane to London, picked up a prescription of methadone that was waiting for him, and then it was on to Germany, where he was booked for a couple of shows.
25:48 Jake Brennan? When all was said and done, he had a decent amount of cash on his person, somewhere between 10 and 20 grand. And he also had a little time off. And as the musical gumbo of Willie Deville played once more on the tour bus's stereo, Johnny knew exactly where he was gonna go next. By the time Johnny Thunders arrived in New Orleans for what would be the last night of his life, the evening of April 22nd, 1991, he was both everywhere and nowhere. His style, his swagger, even just the way he held the guitar, was reflected across the entirety of the rock spectrum. From Guns N' Roses' Izzy Stradlin, to Johnny Marr of the Smiths,
26:29 Jake Brennan? to a veritable rogues' gallery of big hair-having chart mainstays like Motley Crue and Bon Jovi. But although his influence ran deep, it ran silent, too. Few knew that Johnny Thunders was such an inspiration on 1980s and 1990s rock and roll, and fewer still knew his name. It wasn't for lack of trying. At one point, he formed a new group called Gang War, with Wayne Kramer of the MC5, who was fresh out of federal prison at the time. And later, he assembled another group called Cosa Nostra, with a few of his former heartbreakers. And neither band lasted. The simple reason, as Brother Wayne Kramer once put it, was due to the fact that, quote, "Johnny was impossible to work with because
27:13 Jake Brennan? he had another job that was more important," unquote. And that other job was his dope habit. It kept him scrambling from plane to plane, gig to gig, one cash payment to the next. Always cash. It kept him ignoring the sores, the lumps, the pains that had, at this point, become commonplace. And when the money stopped coming in for a spell, when he blew it all on another cold, sweaty, palmful of handshake drugs, he got desperate. And desperation made him ugly. It's been alleged that he once hunted down his estranged wife, Julie, who had long since bailed with their two kids, and who was also pregnant with a third. And when he found her, he beat her up and stole her welfare money.
27:57 Jake Brennan? That's how low his other job made him go. And tonight, Johnny was going even lower. Tonight, he was gonna find out that there really was a bottom. And when he hit it, there was no coming back.
28:14 Jake Brennan? Johnny Thunders bellied up to the bar and ordered a brandy. He could hear someone singing outside, some random reveler out there in the middle of the street. From elsewhere, the strains of a Dixieland jazz band floated on in the wind. That's what he loved about this town. Music ran through New Orleans's blood. New York was similar. But his hometown had become hazardous to his health. He knew all the right places to get all the wrong things in New York. And he knew exactly who to talk to for a bindle of this or a vial of that. Here in New Orleans, like in Japan or Germany, the temptation wasn't so easy to locate. Or so went the magical thinking of the punk junkie nightmare.
28:55 Jake Brennan? Because temptation, vice, bad decisions of all kinds, Johnny attracted these things like a magnet. The all-black suit he was wearing only emphasized his ghastly white skin, and the sweat running down the sides of his gaunt face told a story of desire, submission, and detachment. He turned to his left, and then to his right, and here was temptation and vice sitting on either side of him at the bar. Here were two brothers, Mark and Michael Ricks, two locals Johnny had met when he checked into the St. Peterhouse Hotel. Two guys now getting shitfaced with the flush Johnny Thunders. They weren't alone. The brother's friend, Stacy, Michael's ex, came along to see where the night would take
29:39 Jake Brennan? them. She had seventy bucks burning a hole in her pocket from turning tricks earlier that day on the seedier side of the French Quarter, the same side they were all on now. The side where you could get whatever you wanted for a couple of bucks. And for a few bucks more, you could get more than you ever thought possible. Johnny knocked back the rest of his brandy, slammed the glass down on the dirty bar in front of him, and turned to his new friends. Where to next? Pat O'Brien's? Kagan's? The night was young. In fact, in Johnny's line of work, there was only night. Hours later, once the sun had come up and the shadows of temptation and vice had disappeared
30:21 Jake Brennan? for yet another day, Johnny Thunders was dead. Almost immediately, there was pushback on the official party line provided by New Orleans Police, that based on the amount of methadone and cocaine in Johnny's body, it was a clear overdose, which is what the city coroner's office investigator, John Gagliano, told the public at a press conference six days after Johnny's death. For many in Johnny's circle, including his one-time guitarist Stevie Clayson, who allegedly called Didi Ramon shortly after Johnny's body was found, the cops were full of shit. Reported sightings of the Ricks brothers, Mark and Michael, walking around New Orleans wearing Johnny's clothes, only fueled the going theory that Johnny had been given a
31:04 Jake Brennan? hotshot by low-level street criminals so that they could rob him. But Mark and Michael Ricks had been interviewed by the police and were subsequently released from custody. In The Times, Piki Yun stated in an article that contrary to the word on the street, not everything was taken from Johnny's room. In fact, some of his guitars, as well as some of his cash, were still there. Weeks later, however, on May 18th, the city of New Orleans released their full autopsy and toxicology results, and what was found turned the whole thing upside down.
31:41 Jake Brennan? Now, those official results did prove that Johnny had tested positive for methadone and cocaine. But the revelation here was that there were only small amounts of both, nowhere near the levels that would have been necessary to kill him. By releasing the full results, the city had effectively contradicted itself, rendering John Gagliano's conclusion of overdose to be nothing short of impossible. So if it wasn't a hot shot, then how was Johnny Thunders murdered?
32:14 Jake Brennan? LSD. Say he was drunk, a little fucked up on methadone and coke, and then was knowingly or unknowingly given a dose of acid. The interaction between the drugs could have caused him to panic, his heart to race, triggering some sort of cardiovascular stress that pushed him over the edge. Again, according to Didi Ramon, the LSD hot shot, for lack of a better term, is what Stevie Klassen told him had been administered to Johnny that night. And this theory was stoked when just a short while later, in early 1992, New Orleans cops picked up Michael Ricks, who was charged and convicted of first-degree robbery after
32:57 Jake Brennan? he pulled a gun on some tourists in the French Quarter who had refused to buy drugs off him. So what exactly was Michael Ricks pushing at the time of his arrest?
33:08 Jake Brennan? LSD.
33:20 Jake Brennan? All right, guys. Earlier in this episode, I briefly mentioned Gang War, the doom punk slash rock and roll hybrid band that Johnny Thunders formed with Wayne Kramer, the MC5. We didn't have enough time here in this full episode to get into the story of Gang War, how they came to be, why they burned out so fast, and why they had to be escorted by police out of the city of Boston, and just why on earth a guy like Wayne Kramer, who had just gotten out of prison and was looking for a second chance, just why would he hang that second chance around a guy that so many could see was already gone? You can hear all about this in this week's brand new mini-episode of Disgrace and, but to do that, you have to be an All-Access member. Just go to disgracempod.com to learn more and to sign up and start listening right now. All right, let's get back to our story on Johnny Thunders.
34:07 Jake Brennan? Chapter 4, Pirate Love.
34:10 Jake Brennan? When he died, Johnny Thunders was still the living embodiment of the rock and roller. Only now, instead of representing the promise of rebellion and liberation that lie at the core of the rock and roll heart, he was the flip side of that particular coin. He was the haggard, pitiful result of all the rebelliousness, the inevitable tragedy, the very thing that every teenager's mother feared would come to pass when their boy ran off to join a band on the Lower East Side or wherever, a cautionary tale dumped on the doorstep of history by the addictions that plagued him. But there was more to Johnny Thunders than that, and there it was, in his autopsy. Specifically, the autopsy report revealed
34:52 Jake Brennan? that Johnny had been suffering from cirrhosis, from lymphoma, a pulmonary edema, and leukemia. The fact that Johnny Thunders had leukemia was later confirmed by one of his final girlfriends, a Swedish hairdresser named Suzanne Blochist. Johnny and Suzanne had one daughter together, and shortly after her birth in 1987, Suzanne said that Johnny was diagnosed with the deadly disease. This would explain the lump on his neck, and honestly, it explains what happened in Room 37 of the St. Peter House Hotel in New Orleans. Johnny's body, his immune system, had been systematically weakened by illness, by cancer, and by chronic hard drug use.
35:36 Jake Brennan? And so the most likely scenario is not that he was given a debilitating dose of LSD that led to his death, but simply that his body finally gave out, helped along by non-lethal amounts of methadone and cocaine. Was he hanging out with certain members of the New Orleans underworld who may have stolen from him after he took his last breath? Yes. Did the cops use the overdose angle to investigate a little less than they should have? Probably. But was Johnny Thunders murdered? No. Johnny Thunders was consumed by his lifestyle, the bad and the good. Walking the walk, walking that razor's edge between self-mythology and self-destruction.
36:17 Jake Brennan? That's where he lived and what he sang about in songs like "One-Tracked Mind" and "Pirate Love," which, next to "Born to Lose," was the unofficial Johnny Thunders anthem for those who refused to compromise themselves creatively or authentically. The conspiracy theories that said he was murdered only proved that others expected him to go out in a blaze. A knife, a needle, a gun, a hotshot, something dramatic, and something befitting the punk junkie nightmare he turned his life into. The truth, however, is much quieter than all that. And it's much sadder, too. His body just couldn't carry the weight of his myth any longer.
36:58 Jake Brennan? And in the end, that's the part that couldn't be stolen, like his clothes and his guitars and his money. Johnny Thunders died in Room 37, in disgrace and so alone. But the myth he created walked right out the door, like a motherfucker. I'm Jake Brennan, and this is Disgraceland.
37:35 Jake Brennan? Alright guys, thanks for riding along with us and Johnny Thunders here. This is a weird story from just one of the greatest eras of rock and roll. The first era of punk rock. Guys, you can only listen to one generation punk rock band on the next road trip you take. Who's it gonna be? Is it gonna be Johnny Thunders and the New York Dolls? Is it gonna be the Sex Pistols? Is it gonna be The Clash? Who else? Television, Talking Heads, those 70s sort of first wave punk rock groups. Which one do you ride hardest for? Give me a call, 617-906-6638. Let me know which first generation punk artist you love the most and why. Hit me up, voicemail and text, email at disgracelandpod. Guys, you want more disgracing? You want ad-free disgracing?
38:18 Jake Brennan? You want those extra mini episodes like this story we have on Johnny and Wayne Kramer coming up? Gotta get the mini episode content. Gotta go to Patreon, gotta go to Apple Podcasts to become an All-Access member of disgracing. You get ad-free listening, you get extra exclusive content. Go to disgracelandpod.com to sign up. Alright, here comes some credits.
38:38 Jake Brennan? Disgraceland was created by yours truly and is produced in partnership with Double Elvis. Credits for this episode can be found on the show notes page at disgracelandpod.com. Rate and review the show and follow us on Instagram, TikTok, Twitter and Facebook @disgracelandpod and on YouTube at youtube.com slash @disgracelandpod. Rock or roll up.
39:03 Speaker 08 He's a bad, bad man.
39:07 Jake Brennan? Hey guys, time to dust off your detective skills while unwinding in the Caribbean on Virgin Voyages' second true crime voyage. It's back by popular demand, this five-night, adults-only escape sets sail March 20th, 2027 to Grand Turk in the Beach Club at Bimini. The difference between this year and last will be that I will be on the cruise this year along with Zeth and he and I will be taping a live version of Disgraceland along with podcast hosts from Exactly Right's Buried Bones, Podcast of the Year Award winners Wise Crack and other fan favorites. Get on this cruise with us, guys, and enjoy live podcast recordings, behind-the-scenes storytelling, exclusive meet and greets and immersive true crime programming throughout this one-of-a-kind voyage.
39:51 Jake Brennan? Head over to www.virginvoyages.com/trucrime to secure your spot.
39:57 Jake Brennan? I like a story with a twist as much as anyone, but some of the best traditions don't have one. They just started and kept going. That's something that's great about Chateau St. Michelle. They've been leading Washington wine since 1967 with wines that are balanced, expressive, and easy to enjoy. Choosing the right bottle shouldn't feel complicated. It should be something you open with confidence every time. So for once, here's a story with no twist, just a good bottle. Redefine your rituals with Chateau St. Michelle.
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Previous Bonus Episode: Lady Gaga, Elvis Presley, and the Orion Conspiracy Next Bonus Episode: Bob Weir, Bohemian Grove, more Orion, and First-Gen Punks Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated