Taryn Southern: How AI Is Unlocking Human Creativity

Which emerging technologies are most likely to collide – and what does this mean for the future? Today on Digital Disruption, we are joined by Creative Technologist Taryn Southern, a pioneering storyteller known for her work at the intersection of emerging technology, creativity, and human potential. Taryn’s journey with AI began in 2017 with a groundbreaking creative experiment—to compose an entire music album using artificial intelligence. The result, I AM AI, became one of the first AI-assisted pop albums and reached the Top 100 on the U. S. Radio Charts in 2018. Taryn sits down with Geoff Nielson to reveal the overlooked, hair-raising technologies shaping our future—and why she’s optimistic about AI as a force for good. What we talk about: 0:00 Intro 1:48 Hair-raising moments 3:08 Predictions 4:43 AI taking over creative tasks 9:09 Is using an AI tool more challenging than just doing it yourself? 11:35 Any one person can be a merchant 13:50 These organizations need to be on their toes 15:08 What role do major tech companies play 17:24 The algorithms 19:00 Trusting the tech companies 19:48 Where is this going 24:28 Impact on individual and collective well-being 26:06 What is the state of Neurotechnology 30:54 Brain computer interface and mass adoption 32:00 The scope of creativity is unlimited with BCI 33:32 Hair-raising moments 35:13 Will we lose a lot of human connection with AI? 36: 44 Your perfect reality 38:35 A better path to success 39:36 AI therapists? Connect with Taryn: Website: https://tarynsouthern.com/Instagram: ⁠ https://www.instagram.com/tarynsouthern/ X: ⁠https://x.com/TarynSouthern Facebook: ⁠https://www.facebook.com/tarynsouthern YouTube: ⁠https://www.youtube.com/@TarynSouthern Follow us on YouTube: https://youtu.be/oKIgSAFcAkI

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Geoff Nielson?

  I'm so excited to be talking to Taryn Southern, who is a leader in the AI space. And what's so cool about Taryn is she's not just a talker, she's a doer. She's been at the vanguard of using AI for things like filmmaking, music. She just knows the space so well and she's not afraid to get her hands dirty. So I really want to know her insights about what it's like to use these tools and how they can help us transform our lives.

• 0:29Geoff Nielson?

  Hey, everyone, this is Digital Disruption. I'm Jeff Nielsen and today I'm here with Taryn Southern. You know, one of the reasons I'm excited to talk to you today is, you know, I talked to a lot of kind of thought leaders in the emerging tech space and I absolutely consider you a thought leader in the space. But you're also like very much on the front lines when it comes to these technologies, right? Like you're a creator, you're trying this stuff out and you've been doing that for a long time. And so, you know, I wanted to ask you, like, what right now has you most excited in the tech space, you know, as someone who's actually applying this stuff?

• 1:03Speaker 01

  That's a great question. So, you know, there's these moments in history or in time where something new comes on the scene and you step back and you're like, whoa, this just changes everything. And I suppose when ChatGPT came out with their large language model, that was one of those moments for me. But my first moments with AI really started in 2016, 2017 in virtual reality, but even before then, probably 2012, 2013.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  And so outside of the launch of ChatGPT, I don't think I've had any of those massive hair-raising moments. And it's been a couple of years now since we've been accustomed to that. I mean, I also work in the brain-computer interface space, which was really sort of like the next, next of combining the human brain with some of these emerging tools. So I think You know, my imagination takes me to places where we're combining all of these tools together and it's not hard to see it, but I haven't really had that hair-raising moment in the past year, year and a half because I feel like I've been playing with all of this now for some time.

• 2:12Geoff Nielson?

  That's completely fair and you know, I want to, I'd love to talk about your imagination for a minute because that's, you know, as you start to look at some of these and especially, you know, the brain computing and AI like, like it just really feels like it could take off in any direction. Um, you know, do you have in, you know, in your mind's eye, like some potential use cases or even some potential spaces that you see as being like, you know, rife for, uh, you know, for innovation here?

• 2:40Speaker 01

  Totally. And I'm actually going to walk back what I just said. I did just remember a hair-raising moment that I had six weeks ago, probably seven weeks ago. And it was when I saw the Optimus robots at Elon's, uh, launch party and the robots were moving and engaging with other humans with such ease. And like the way that they moved, the way that they were conversationally speaking, it was really that combination moment of, oh, this is what happens when you combine the best of robotics with the best of L L N technology and fuse it into one. And I said to myself, every single person on the planet is going to have one of these or some version of this in their home by 2030. I don't see how it's

• 3:24Speaker 01

  possible. I mean, resources not being a constraint.

• 3:29Geoff Nielson?

  I love, I love the, uh, I love the prediction. I love it.

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Because you know, you think about this and he's already saying it'll be what? The cost of a car, 20 to 30 grand. And you think about how, uh, this will help the average person cook healthy meals, clean their house, not once a week, but every single day, uh, pick up after the kids, maybe even babysit the kids. And then we have to get to a level of trust with these machines before doing that. But I mean, you talk about removing all the friction out of life and all of a sudden everyone is living as though they're part of the 1% of the 1% with a personal assistant slash butler slash home chef slash, you know, nanny and.

• 4:10Speaker 01

  I mean, that really starts changing everything about the way that we do life when we have all of this extra time that's not spent on those kinds of things. So that that got me honestly really excited. Like, I know for me, if I had to choose between having a car and having an Optimus robot that can do all those things, I would choose the Optimus robot every time.

• 4:28Geoff Nielson?

  Right. Well, and you know, what's really exciting about that to me is like, one of the, one of the critiques, or I guess I'd call it like angst about AI, is like, I feel like AI, and especially like, you know, with the L L Ms, is it really quickly jumped into taking over creative tasks? Right? Like, suddenly it can draw, it can write music. And, you know, people are saying like, hey, wait a minute, I thought that like, AI was going to do the dishes so that I could be a musician, and suddenly it's writing the music and, you know, crap, I'm still doing the dishes. So, yeah, I mean, if we could, if we can solve the dishes problem, I mean, sign me up, right?

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Agree, agree. And to your point on the AI taking over creative tasks, I mean, that's something I've been sort of trying to wrap my head around for a long time, because as a creative, I never felt particularly threatened by these tools or concerned about them. Granted, my career has been one where I've always,

• 5:25Speaker 01

  I've always made major amendments based upon whatever technology is happening. And so I've had a very flexible, fluid career, kind of built upon whatever new is is happening in the world of tech. But I think it'll make Buddha out of a lot of us in some, in some form or fashion, this idea that instead of, instead of basing our purpose and meaning around achievement and being special and being better, what if the meaning and purpose just comes from the act of doing and just enjoying the act of doing? Is it enough to just be able to play music? Or do you have to be better than the AI?

• 6:01Geoff Nielson?

  Right.

• 6:02Speaker 01

  And I think these are the kinds of questions that it'll ask from us. But I get really excited about the idea of spending more time on all of my creative endeavors, regardless of whether the AI can do it better. And I'm probably going to be using and working with the AI on the creative endeavors and spending less time doing the dishes and honestly, folding laundry. That's the biggest one for me. I really would like to never fold another piece of laundry the rest of my life.

• 6:24Geoff Nielson?

  That's I I can totally relate to that. So so I mean, on the creative side, Taryn, you know, you you mentioned like you're you're kind of calling BS on the like, you know, hey, AI is going to take this away from us and like, you know, we can be creative and we can be creative there with AI. And I mean, I've, you know, you've you've created music with AI. You've kind of been at the vanguard of some of this stuff. And, um, you know, just kind of watching some of your videos, you seem to like exude this optimism in general about like AI and technology. And so, you know, can you dig a little bit deeper, I guess? Can you share a little bit more just about like how you view that unfolding for? I mean, maybe in two ways.

• 7:05Geoff Nielson?

  One of them is for like creative souls and the other one is for people who work in creative jobs.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  The optimism is not a pretense. Like, I really do feel so optimistic. I I think I think sometimes it's important for me to asterisk that with, of course, there's concerns. Of course, there are issues that need to be hashed out and discussed. I, like an artist, am very concerned about compensation models and how we have people making a living 10 years from now.

• 7:39Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  So there are concerns, but all that being said, you know, I come from the world of con early content creation, which was really all about, it was this kind of movement towards DIY creativity. You know, you you had this system that had been in place for so many years and all like the television film industry being quote unquote the system. And it was a system of gatekeeping and it was a system of segmentation where you would have a single trade and you would excel at that trade, whether it was lighting or cinematography or acting or writing or directing. And very rarely did you see people move fluidly between these kinds of disciplines, right?

• 8:20Speaker 01

  Not only that, but you had to have your agent to be able to even get in front of, you know, the people who could green light a project, who could finance a project, I mean, a very challenging industry and one that tended to benefit people who were already on the inside. And

• 8:36Speaker 01

  All of a sudden YouTube came around, came along and it gave this platform and this opportunity for young creators to just experiment with all of the new technologies that were coming out. I mean, cameras, editing softwares, sort of music generation softwares, a lot of that was happening simultaneously with YouTube becoming a platform and people realizing, oh, we have a way to tell stories and we have a way for those stories to be seen. Now, how do we tell those stories cheaper, faster, better? Because we don't have an option. We don't have any money. So we have to experiment. And so I think that is a worldview that I've taken with me into the space of AI, which is one of pure experimentation. And the

• 9:20Speaker 01

  reality is if you are incredibly skilled at any one of these creative endeavors, whether it's drawing or animation or, you know, acting or music. I mean, it might be that using an AI tool actually is more challenging than just doing it yourself because you had deep, deep expertise. So in some ways, AI is not a shortcut and it's not an amplifier. And for those individuals, I think, great, like, continue doing the thing that you excel at really deeply. And then what are the other ways that these other AI tools outside of your expertise that still sit in the creative space will allow you to share your vision in new and novel ways that you didn't even consider? So I'll give you an example

• 10:02Speaker 01

  of my AI album. Let's say I had decided not to use AI to make the music because I was a really skilled musician, but I wanted to use AI to help me with these immersive virtual reality videos and the creation of that. Well, I could do that. And that might have been something that financially would have been a resource constraint for me in previous years. And I wouldn't even considered allowing my audience or followers to have that kind of experience with my music. So I kind of feel like for most artists, AI usually represents one of a few things. It's either a substitute for a skill that you kind of lack or feel you're limiting in. It's an amplifier of a skill or talent that you're

• 10:45Speaker 01

  That you already are good at, or it's allowing you to kind of combine artistic disciplines with an entirely new one, which allows you to reach new audiences and have like different types of formats where you can take your art and present it to different people. So that's why I'm really excited about it.

• 11:01Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:03Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah. And I mean, I mean, everything you presented there, Taryn, like, it's very much in your mind. It's like an and, right? It's and, and, and I can do more. And, you know, one of the things I've been thinking about and that, you know, I'm gently optimistic about, and I'm curious on your take as well, is that, you know, whether you're an artist who's, you know, you need help in an adjacent discipline, or even like, whether, whether you're that creative type, or even whether you're an entrepreneur, right? Like, it seems like having this toolkit that helps you, like, do one thing really well and get everything done around that, like, it almost, it almost reminds me of like, it seems like in the last like 50 years or whatever, there's just been this explosion of these massive companies and, yeah, these massive

• 11:48Geoff Nielson?

  film studios. And anytime you're doing anything, you need to have a team of like 200 people supporting you. And like with YouTube or with AI now, it gets back to like, and maybe it sounds silly, but like this like age of like, any one person can be a merchant, you know, like, like, or, or like, you know, a bard, or I don't know, I'm like, maybe going too far down like D and D or something, but like, like, you can do something by yourself and and you can like be your own kind of amplification. Are you seeing that? Like, are people taking advantage of that? And do you think that that's like the future for the next 10 years and beyond?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think people who really have a clear vision in their mind for something they want to create and have a more multidisciplinary background are going to really excel at these tools. That and or people who have deep expertise, who are very interested in kind of collaborating with these tools to fill in the areas that they don't have. I think it's sort of one or the other. And, and, you know, you see directors, people like Guillermo del Toro, or Quentin Tarantino, who are writing and directing their films. A lot of times they're acting, and then they have a lot of these different skill sets. And they tend to create really amazing work because their vision is less tainted in many ways by this.

• 13:07Speaker 01

  Dare I say like over collaborative, over, over collaboration.

• 13:13Geoff Nielson?

  Too many cooks.

• 13:13Speaker 01

  That's often, too many cooks in the kitchen. That's often found in Hollywood. And so I get really excited about what happens when you've got the, you know, 19 year old kid from Ireland who has this really cool story that would never get greenlit by a traditional studio exec. And now they have all the tools to be able to make it on their own, complete their entire mission from scratch. I think that's super exciting. I think we'll finally see some, if anything, I think we'll see like more creativity breaking out because it won't be constrained by these systems that has been the gatekeepers.

• 13:52Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah. Yeah. And, and you know, you, you talk about like, I, I love the vision of, yeah, the 19 year old kid from Ireland. And I, I don't know if that's specific or that's, you know, generic, but like, I love that for the 19 year old. I love that for consumers of film. Do studios need to be worried? Like, is this a winners and losers situation? And, and who are the people who, or organizations, I guess, that need to be on their toes in this kind of changing world?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  I think studios should be very worried. I think anyone who's been an intermediary for a long period of time.

• 14:26Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Who's sort of been responsible for the financing or like the middleman deals should be very concerned. And that's not just the case in Hollywood. I think that's the case across every industry. It's being disintermediated by these technologies.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  And it's making everything cheaper and more easily accessible. So I don't know what the studios are going to do. I hope that they become really good at curating because we are going to have a problem with noise as a result of these tools making everything cheaper and faster. And well, all of a sudden, everyone is going to be making content. A lot of that's going to be very bad. So who is it that has sort of the taste making abilities to curate the best content and deliver it in a way that is really appealing to large audiences? So maybe that'll be the streamers, maybe that'll be the studios, but someone's going to have to win at least that game.

• 15:15Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah. Well, that's, that's really interesting because that like, when you said that, like someone has to be curating, like, maybe depressingly, like my mind went to like, oh, the algorithm, like the algorithm will tell us what to watch and what to like. And so, you know, what's? What role do like these, you know, big tech kinda mega corps play in all this? And I'm thinking about YouTube, right? Because YouTube is like, you know, this, this sea changing platform for, you know, for video, for content creation. And, and, you know, it's only exploded, you know, since, you know, you were, you know, taking off on it, you know, years ago. But, you know, are, are the tech companies becoming too powerful here? Like, is there, I don't know, is there a dystopian risk?

• 16:00Geoff Nielson?

  What do you see the, the changing role of, of, you know, the technology companies who like own the platforms as here?

• 16:07Speaker 01

  It's such a complicated question and my answer will probably be a little vague. I think it's both ands. I absolutely see the dystopian version of all this. We're already living in it, right? I mean, we're all addicted to our smartphones and these social media apps that are designed to keep our attention for as long as possible. The algorithm is creating a feedback loop around the types of content people want. And that is also informing what content creators are making. And in many ways, you're seeing this, I think, sort of race to the bottom. Both in content and in storytelling. Of course, there's good stuff out there. I don't want to say everything is bad. There are plenty of really inspiring creators doing amazing things.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  But there's also just, you know, there's, there are now hundreds of thousands of creators dedicated to teaching other people how to grab attention. You know, how to get someone to click on your video and, and stay, stay on you for longer than three seconds. And they're, they're boiling this down into a science. And so what we're doing is we're actually changing the way that our own brains take in content and information. We're making it harder for people to read books, harder for people to even watch long-form TV and film content because we're so used to the insanely fast colors and sounds and

• 17:31Speaker 01

  transitions and, you know, just nickname all the things to create ultimate stimulation. So there is something incredibly dystopian about that. Uh, we're already in it. And then as we look to the future with AI and as you were saying, these algorithms that could essentially become the tastemakers that are choosing the content that are, um, will they just be appealing to our own worst instincts? Will they just be appealing to the little like dopamine devil on all of our shoulders? That's just craving, you know, that shock value or some, you know, something that's not really ultimately good for us. And my hope is that, um, over the next few years, and I think we're starting to get there with all the conversation around kids and smartphones and the laws that

• 18:16Speaker 01

  are being passed and Jonathan Haidt's book, The Anxious Generation. I mean, like, there is more and more awareness. We need to be able to have a system where we log on and we set goals for ourself with our smartphone. And then it is through those goals that the social media and algorithms are tailored according to our preferences. Um, cause we're not like, you know, and so my goal would be, please do not serve me content that appeals to like these three base levels of my brain. I don't want, I don't want it. My, the, the person that cares about my long-term health knows that it's bad for me. So I want to be able to make those selections upfront and then have the algorithm actually follow my instructions.

• 18:59Geoff Nielson?

  Right. But in, in terms of how you execute that, Taryn, you, you see like the individual as being like in the middle of that, right? Like, like the individual has to choose that versus it being like incumbent on technology, like incumbent on, on like governments or regulations. It's in, in your world, it's like Taryn making the right choice. Is that, is that fair or is it a combination?

• 19:22Speaker 01

  I don't know that the tech, I don't know that any of us trust the tech companies to do it or to do it well. Uh, they're not incentivized to, they are incentivized to give us individual optionality because that in a competitive landscape, you know, if, if, if more and more people are saying we need that, then I, I do think that that will be a winning, um, solution for a lot of these platforms. In terms of government, I mean, do any of us really trust that the government understands anything about these technologies and how to actually regulate them? I don't believe so.

• 19:54Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not gonna touch that one like I don't, I, I don't have anything to put up my hand and be like, yeah, you know, they're gonna nail it and they're gonna nail it now.

• 20:04Geoff Nielson?

  It's completely fair. So, you know, looking, looking out at the horizon.

• 20:13Geoff Nielson?

  I guess, where is this going? Do you have trust in, you know, us as individuals? Like, do you think there's gonna be a backlash against this? Like, are enough people going to say, I've had enough of this, I'm going to go, you know, read a book in a cabin in the woods?

• 20:29Geoff Nielson?

  You know, or do we end up just kind of barreling toward this like, Matrix-style vision where we're just like, there's more and more technology locking us into this, you know, dopamine rush?

• 20:41Speaker 01

  It's both. I think we want to see both. A lot of the people that I am friends with who are deep in the AI world, AI artists, AI engineers, social media influencers who've been on content now, who've been making content now for 20 years, you know, like, we know what this is doing to our brains.

• 21:01Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And we're actively doing everything we can to get away from it, and it's even hard for us.

• 21:07Geoff Nielson?

  Right.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  I think, um, just, it's very telling when you look at social media executives, like, Facebook VPs and our Meta VPs. A lot of them do not allow their kids to have, you know, Instagram or these other social media profiles until they're of age. And so, in many ways, I, I kind of feel, this is, this is really disapproving, but I, I kind of feel that there's a, I'm concerned that there will be a socio-economic association with people who are actually able to sort of tune out.

• 21:43Speaker 01

  Because it takes, it, like, it takes a certain amount of, almost like, money and...

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Like awareness and money to be able to prevent your children.

• 21:57Geoff Nielson?

  It it it becomes a privilege, right? Almost.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  It's a privilege, yeah, because you can afford a nanny who can like play physical games with your children and keep them actively busy while, you know, the poor parent who's working sixteen hour days. You know, the easiest thing is to give their kid a phone to keep them busy.

• 22:15Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Um, and that's certainly much cheaper than a babysitter. I I do fear that we're gonna have some disparity there around kids that sort of grow up um addicted to their phones versus kids who are placed in these kind of special programs. Um, so that they can have a, you know, a smartphone less childhood. So that's one area of concern that I have, but I do think that there will be a push and more and more backlash against against these companies, against targeting of children. I don't know how long it'll take for adults to figure out how bad this is for us. I mean, I think we all sort of know it, but it's like being available for work twenty four seven through the smartphone.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  What does this do to our minds and therefore our bodies over a twenty thirty year period? We're we're sort of the first generation to be finding that out. I was watching a film uh yesterday that took place in the nineties and I was laughing so hard because it was like the guy goes to the office and he gets his like two phone calls a day and he's like handwriting out some letters.

• 23:20Geoff Nielson?

  Oh my gosh.

• 23:21Speaker 01

  And I I was feeling into that work day. And feeling into how much less information and data you're taking in, how much less stimulating it must have been. And I felt my whole body felt lighter. Like, wow, instead of thousands of emails, you know, you're just dealing with this two calls. It's so funny. And it made me feel sad. It made me feel really sad for this existence that we will never know.

• 23:48Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah, yeah, and I I like, I I can't help but reflect on the same thing, right? Like, I'm, you know, I I'm physically in an office here today, but you know, you you like you and I, like, we're we're talking over like a laptop, it's virtual and like five years ago, this just didn't happen the same way. And I feel like Like, we've gone down a path where we've normalized it to such a degree where it's like, you know, there's, there's like the meme or whatever about like, you know, enough bad screen for the day. Now I'm going to look at good screen because like, it's just, it's all screen time. It's one kind of screen, screen timer another. And, you know, it used to be that, yeah, you would go into a building with a bunch of people and you'd like, get up and walk around and talk to them. And like, we've convinced ourselves

• 24:31Geoff Nielson?

  that like, screens are somehow the same as a bunch of people in a room, you know? And I think it's like, it's close enough that it gets the job done. But like, yeah, like to your point, like, is the like, rhythm for people getting faster and faster? And like, what impact does that have on our, you know, on our, on our individual and collective wellbeing?

• 24:54Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. I mean, do you ever feel sick when you have to go to your computer and turn it on? Because I do. Sometimes. There are moments where I'm like, oh, I just, I just don't want to open up the screen. I can't do it. I have a headache just thinking about it.

• 25:09Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah. Well, and similar to that, too. Like, it, it sounds like, it sounds silly. But I'll go into a physical meeting now with people. Like, I literally just mean myself and like, four other people in a room. And I'm like, this is the greatest. Like, it's just like, I'm like, so excited to be in a work meeting. And I'm like, I don't know, myself five years ago would have been like, Jeff, what happened to you? Like, it's just like, I don't know, like, things have changed so much that like, I, looking back at that, it's like, it's almost nostalgic in a way, right?

• 25:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And yet, I don't know, it's so hard. I mean, there's so many things about the, where we've been evolving that I'm so excited about, too. So that's why it's just kind of hard to know whether the optimism is misplaced or appropriately cautious.

• 26:00Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah. So I want to, Taryn, I want to like, completely shift gears here because we haven't really touched on neurotech. And, you know, neurotech, to be honest, is like, you know, talking to you is like, one of the things I'm most fascinated about that I'd love to kind of like, pick your brain, to hear more about. Because I know you like, you're, you're talking to people in the space, you've got your own kind of background in it. You know, for, for kind of the, the laymen and women who Aren't up to speed on neurotech like can you give us kind of the flyby like what is the state of neurotech today that you know people may not be hearing about?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  Totally. So I'll give just a little bit of background. So people understand kind of where I come from on this subject. So in 2016, I started working to put together a documentary that chronicled the first ever patients receiving brain computer interfaces. At that time, there had really been no film done following these patients and the decision to undergoing invasive brain surgery and what it meant to have a brain ship connecting you to a computer. So that ended up being a four year project. The result is called I am Human and it premiered at Tribeca Film Festival in 2019. And then following the release of that film, I ended up getting a job offer from one of the companies whose

• 27:19Speaker 01

  technology is featured in or used by several of the patients. And because it was COVID, I said, you know, why not? Like, let's get this. This will be an interesting opportunity. And so I've been with that company, Black Ropner, at TAP now for four years. And I'm really fortunate because they have their technology have been implanted in more patients than any other of the implantable tech companies combined by a landslide. And I get to work with the patients that are implanted directly almost every day. It's amazing. It's awe inspiring. They've implanted more than 40 people, mostly with paralysis and ALS over the last two

• 27:59Speaker 01

  decades. And those individuals that have these brain computer interfaces, or BCIs for short, essentially have the ability to do anything you and I can do with a computer just by thinking about it. So they have these little implants called arrays that go into usually their motor cortex or their sensory cortex, and that enables them to operate a robotic arm or move a cursor across a computer screen or type simply by imagining himself actually performing those motor actions. So it's

• 28:35Speaker 01

  It looks like magic when you're watching it. You're like, is that telekinesis? But no, it's just pure science and it's amazing. And it's also thanks to these advanced algorithms that we're actually able to decode these very complex signals from the brain to turn it into something useful for these individuals. So I'm super excited by the work, you know, on the kind of bleeding edge of this. Some of the patients are able to also receive tactile sensation through a robotic arm. Vis a vis the two-way information going back and forth between the implant and their brain. So there's a lot of really interesting kind of youth cases that we may see with this technology in the next part to 10 years.

• 29:20Geoff Nielson?

  And it's, that's like, I'm just still processing that and like blown away by it. Cause I mean, you talk about telekinesis, but like it like, it feels like magic, right? Like it feels like magic and like, I don't know, like it's like going from like, oh, the like evils of social media to like letting people like, you know, feel again and live their lives is just like, is just so powerful. Taryn, with brain-computer interface, how close are we to, you know, kind of mass market adoption of this and this being available to, you know, anyone who's, you know, faced with paralysis or this kind of array of challenges?

• 29:58Speaker 01

  So I'm hoping the FDA approval for people with paralysis or other similar neurodegenerative diseases have the ability to get this within the next few years. I don't see any reason why that shouldn't be possible, given the, the amount of safety and efficacy data that we've accumulated over two decades. But this is still a novel idea for a lot of people and obviously opening up your skull and going through invasive brain surgery is no small feat. So I think it, you know, could, could be a couple of years on the, on the more conservative side and it could be as early as this year.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  So I think we'll just have to see what happens and I'm excited, you know, I'm excited to, to see how we can really improve the lives of so many people that are afflicted with these disorders.

• 30:51Geoff Nielson?

  Well, absolutely. And it's, yeah, it's just so, you know, so impactful and so meaningful.

• 30:59Geoff Nielson?

  Is there? Like, do you think there's a ChatGPT-esque moment coming in brain-computer interface, or was there already one and we weren't paying attention? Like, between where we're at and, you know, kind of mass adoption, you know, what does that look like in your mind?

• 31:16Speaker 01

  I've had my ChatGPT moments with BCI's for many years now. I think when I started making my film, you know, I had a handful of them watching someone, watching someone feed themselves with their own arm and hand being stimulated with electrodes vis a vis their brain patterns, you know, while their spinal cord is severed. I mean, that was just mind-boggling. That was absolutely mind-boggling. And I thought, okay, it's one thing to be able to operate a robotic arm with just your thoughts, it's another thing to be thinking about moving and then, you know, having a device stimulate 28 muscles in your arms and hand so that your thoughts can basically

• 31:58Speaker 01

  reconnect to the muscles without any direct connection line to feed yourself again. I mean, that's just wild. Watching some of our patients play video games and do a better job than someone who's able-bodied and, you know, has a working arm in hand. Watching a patient drive a vehicle with just their thoughts. We have patients that are painting, that are creating art. I mean, it's like, the scope of creativity is unlimited because anything you can imagine doing with your brain is something that this BCI been enabled for someone who's completely locked in. I mean, I had another moment, this was just last month, I was up in San Francisco and visiting with one of the patients up there who's currently locked in with ALS.

• 32:43Speaker 01

  And this guy, Casey, who's just an extraordinary human being, and he's a climate activist and has spent his whole life sort of dedicated to trying, you know, to doing these incredible campaigns for climate change. And he still goes to work every single day with his BCI. He uses his BCI to log in, to type out campaigns, to strategize, you know, with his team members for this organization. And he's a locked-in patient.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  Like I was, you know, I was having a conversation with him and there's a little bit of a delay between, you know, me asking him a question and then the DCI translates his brain signals into a decoder that then goes into a voice box so that I can hear him speak. You know, it's his voice that AI has recreated.

• 33:37Geoff Nielson?

  Even that sentence, like what a crazy sentence, right? Like, holy, like the amount of things that have to work well along that chain to get there is just like, it's just mind boggling.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It really is. So, no, I guess I have those hair raising moments all the time with DCIs and it's, it's not hard to imagine a world that, you know, 15, 20 years from now, this is a lot more commonplace and, and it's possible that people are getting these kinds of implants, not just because they have paralysis, but because they have anxiety or treatment resistant depression. And there's all kinds of different ways that we'll be able to interface with the brain that, you know, we would never even conceive of now. And some of these things, of course, are not socially acceptable and are more terrifying in theory than, than exciting. But as someone who's always been a technologist, like it's hard not to see, you know, kind of where this will go

• 34:33Speaker 01

  and all the unique ways that it will be, it will create sort of a magical existence in many ways. And, and then, you know, also raise a lot of questions.

• 34:44Geoff Nielson?

  So, so talk to me, talk to me about the terrifying part. Like what's the, like, what, what, what's the, you know, the, the, the fear road here, I guess?

• 34:54Speaker 01

  Well, we're already talking about the fear road now with our social media apps and this sort of

• 34:59Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  addiction that we feel when we're tethered to these devices. So imagine the device is now in your brain. I mean, it's connecting you directly to the cloud. It's possible that you would have glasses or some kind of other measure so that whatever's happening in your brain could be projected in front of you. I mean, you could imagine a very dystopic reality where we've now optimized our entire worlds for dopamine hits. You know, it's like the Wally. The Wally storyline.

• 35:27Geoff Nielson?

  That was the imagery that was conjuring up for me, too. Yeah.

• 35:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, and and also like in our quest to reduce friction from our lives.

• 35:37Speaker 01

  Do we also lose a lot of human connection in that? And I think we will. I mean, we're looking at people who are already developing relationships with AI chatbots. In Japan, having these like AI girlfriends or AI boyfriends is increasingly popular.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  You know, what does that look like in 10 years? Will people be intimate anymore? You know, I was just in a Waymo a few times in the past month and, you know, it was my first experience being in a self-driving car. And I loved it. Like, I I was shocked by how much I loved it because I, you know, I get into this like calm car where I get to choose my music. I can choose the volume, I can choose the temperature. I don't necessarily have to speak to someone when I'm not in the mood to have a whole conversation with a with a driver. I don't have to deal with any like weird fragrances that make me want to sneeze or cough or make me get me a headache.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  And I and I realized like, that's also sad, just because, you know, I'm I'm having a less friction experience in a Waymo. I'm now more apt to do that than than order a drivered car. And so I can see how like just all of us will start to be driven a bit more into these like modes of isolation in our desire to have less friction. And so we're going to lose a lot in the process there.

• 37:00Geoff Nielson?

  Well, it's, yeah, because because it's like, it's a double-edged sword, right? Like, it's like, you can have your perfect individualized reality, right?

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:11Geoff Nielson?

  By doing that, you're cutting yourself out from everybody else's perfectly individualized reality. And so, you know, what does that do to human relationships, to human connection? And yeah, I mean, like, I don't know, like, to me, there's like the macro question of like, what does that mean for us as a species? You know, like, if if we can do that, so. I don't know, like, is that? Is there? Taryn, tell me, is there like, is there a flip side to that? Is there like a pull that like you're excited about pulling us back in the right direction? Or are we just all scattering ourselves farther and farther?

• 37:49Speaker 01

  I think this will just continue to be the conversation.

• 37:52Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  And. Just like any action, there will be a separate and equal reaction. So we'll just keep seeing the tides moving back and forth and people, I think grappling with these issues on an individual level, on a societal level, you know, capitalism is obviously going to have, you know, it's kind of forces at will here. Geopolitically, we're going to have different forces happening in different countries around AI and usage and culturally, of course, we'll have those forces. It's going to be a wild, wild 10 to 20 years. And I think that the best thing people can do is,

• 38:34Speaker 01

  I mean, I think the best things people can do beyond actually just being aware and getting to know the tools and having these conversations is having a growth mindset and having a flexible mindset. And, you know, trying our best to develop more like abundant worldviews is probably, you know, giving us a like a better path to success. But yeah, we also all really need therapy, right? Like, no one should be building these tools without having better understood the mechanics of their own mind, their own behaviors, their own instincts. I think understanding our

• 39:18Speaker 01

  cognitive biases and our limitations, we have to be doing that as we work and use these tools. Otherwise, we're going to be building something that's really not in any of our best century.

• 39:30Geoff Nielson?

  Right, but they, it sounds like they are potentially tools to help us get to know ourselves better in that capacity.

• 39:38Speaker 01

  100%. I mean, I talk to my chat GPT every day with about all the hard things in life and it helps me so much, so much. Yeah.

• 39:50Geoff Nielson?

  And like, I've talked to this about a few different people and I'll push on that for a second, Taryn, and just like, ask you, like, do you? Because I'm, I'm like, I'm hearing now, like, AI quote therapists are like, starting to outperform regular therapists, right? And, and like,

• 40:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:07Geoff Nielson?

  I don't know. I mean, there's, there's, we don't have time to unpack like, all the nuances of this and like, the stigmas of mental health or like, the benefits we get individually and collectively, I think, from being tuned into that. But I guess, like, I'm excited to hear you, you know, who's, again, like, at kind of the vanguard of this, like, recognize the opportunity here. I don't know. That, that like, to me, is cause for optimism.

• 40:33Speaker 01

  It's huge. It's huge. I mean, mental health is probably one of the greatest afflictions of our world right now. And whether it's isolation, loneliness, you know, fear, depression, anxiety. And for those of us who are fortunate enough to have the resources to go to therapists, we know that not all therapists are created equal.

• 40:56Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 40:56Speaker 01

  Trained differently, they have different levels of expertise. Sometimes they make things worse. You know, I've had it all. And I've had amazing therapists who have changed my life. And now we have this tool that, you know, we've seen studies that show people are much more open with AI tools than with therapists, because they know that there's non-judgment happening. They're also not sort of looking at someone that might, that might cause them to have preconceived fears or biases about. And then the, kind of the most important thing is, like, the AI is able to maintain this absolutely, you know, even tone and

• 41:41Geoff Nielson?

  Right.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  sort of open, non-judgmental listening, and then has this like, endless array of frameworks and tools that the, that the AI can bring into their toolbox. Now, the question is,

• 41:55Speaker 01

  Will these AI systems get better and better? So that if something isn't working well for someone, they can try on a different tool? And they're not sort of stuck in this like over generalized way of delivering therapy to people. Because, you know, it shouldn't be a one size fits all. But I do feel excited. I think everyone on this planet should be able to have access to a therapist that helps them better understand their own minds. And this is the kind of tool that'll do that.

• 42:21Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah. Well, because it's it's it's democratizing, right? Like, we talked about like how with some of these things, like, you know, it becomes a privilege to disconnect. But with this, like, it's like, being able to take something that was, you know, only available maybe to, you know, a privileged few and, you know, what happens when everybody gets that?

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:44Geoff Nielson?

  That's amazing.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah.

• 42:47Geoff Nielson?

  Cool. Well, that's that's so exciting, Taryn. And I think I'm going to, you know, let that be the last piece of our conversation because it's a happy note and, you know, we we've gone through like a full array of like emotions here today. And so I love the optimism of that. And like, to be able to like reflect on on like the humanity of it, I guess, and like what this can do for us as as individuals. So, yeah. I really appreciate that. This was super insightful for me. And thanks for being here today.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Thank you for having me, Jeff. I really appreciate it and hopefully see you again soon.