Top Tech Advisor: Every CEO Is Getting AI Wrong

What if everything we’ve been told about AI and the future of work is wrong? John Hagel says most leaders are asking the wrong questions: “How fast can we automate?” “How many jobs can we cut?” According to him, that’s a “going out of business strategy.” In this episode, we sit down with Silicon Valley veteran John Hagel, an advisor to firms like McKinsey, BCG, and Deloitte, to challenge the dominant narrative around AI, automation, and job elimination. He shares insights into how leaders are approaching AI today, often focusing on cost-cutting and workforce reduction, and what that means for the future of business and entrepreneurship. John explains that the real opportunity with AI isn’t efficiency, it’s learning. He talks about the shift from scalable efficiency to scalable learning and how organizations can use AI to augment human potential, unlock creativity and curiosity, and build cultures rooted in trust, collaboration, and continuous improvement. If you’re thinking about the future of work, this episode will challenge how you view AI, strategy, and innovation, and offer a different perspective on AI’s role in the modern economy. Like and follow for weekly episodes. In this episode: 00:00 Intro 01:30 Is “this time different” with technology? 02:29 The Big Shift: Why organizations must fundamentally change 03:18 Scalable efficiency vs scalable learning 05:33 The dangerous AI narrative: automation & job cuts 06:19 Why efficiency alone leads to diminishing returns 09:42 Trust: The missing foundation in most organizations 10:50 What happens when companies fail to adapt 12:21 Debunking AI myths and media narratives 12:46 Humans vs machines: who should do what? 13:14 Reskilling vs building human capabilities 15:03 How to convince leaders to rethink AI strategy 16:24 Fear vs opportunity in leadership 20:16 What real workplace learning looks like 21:18 The future leader: asking better questions 24:38 How to structure high-impact teams 26:06 The collapse of trust in institutions 26:58 Corporate narratives & Apple’s “Think Different” 30:06 Creativity vs technology in strategy 30:41 Zoom Out, Zoom In strategy explained 33:08 Microsoft example: seeing the future early 35:14 Why agility without direction fails 37:21 Understanding “the edge” and innovation 39:34 Why transformation efforts fail in large companies 41:22 Scaling the edge vs top-down change 42:52 The power of the “explorer mindset” 47:18 Why companies suppress passion 48:31 Only 14% of workers are truly passionate 50:18 Can passion be cultivated at scale? 52:29 Does IT still matter in the AI era? 55:07 AI, healthcare, and the future of longevity 57:13 From healthcare to “wellness ecosystems” 58:19 The rise of the trusted advisor 59:50 Can AI replace human advisors? 01:02:25 Advice for leaders 01:04:18 AI is a tool humans determine its impact 01:06:29 Why most digital transformations fail Connect with John: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jhagel/ X: https://x.com/jhagel Our links: Visit our website: https://www.infotech.com/?utm_source=youtube&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=podcast Follow us on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@InfoTechRG

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  In my experience, if I build trust with a leader and have them in the privacy of their office, I have two questions about AI. How quickly can I automate? And how many jobs can I eliminate? Those are the only two questions on their mind.

• 0:16Geoff Nielson?

  This is a show about the future of tech and the future of work. I'm Jeff Nielsen, and today my guest is John Hago. He's a four-decade Silicon Valley whisperer and has worked with everyone from McKinsey to BCG to Deloitte to advise the top technology leaders in the world. John has been following the future of work for decades and is deeply interested in how AI is transforming our organizations. He's on record as calling using AI for automation and elimination "a mistake" and calls it a "going out of business strategy." I want to ask him what the real future of work is, how we can actually harness AI to get ahead, and what we need to do to avoid getting disruptive. Let's find out.

• 0:58Geoff Nielson?

  John, thanks so much for joining today. You know, I've been really interested. You're someone who's been at this whole business of technology, business, work for the better part of four decades. I'm curious, one of the narratives you hear a lot these days is that "this time is different." And I'm curious, from your perspective, is that a useful narrative? Is that true, or is that just something that people say every five or 10 years as a way to get more attention?

• 1:30Speaker 00

  That's a good question. I think that we've been through a lot of technology revolutions, and I think the challenge is that the pace of change is accelerating. It has been accelerating for decades. And so that's the thing to be aware of, is that change is happening at a much more rapid rate.

• 1:54Geoff Nielson?

  I think that's well said, and it's something that we talk a lot about here, and I've certainly had my eye on. So what's the implication of that? Because it feels like in the last handful of years, the pace of change has reached this rate where it's now sort of dramatically outpacing a lot of organizations' ability to keep up with the new technology. And there's a lot of talk about, is it bending up exponentially? Will we never catch up again? So what's the implication there for organizations and I guess for society?

• 2:29Speaker 00

  Well, I think it's going to require a fundamental shift in how we organize and manage organizations. And I talk about what I call the big shift, which is the result of these long-term trends that are reshaping our global economy and society. And one of the elements of the big shift is a shift in our institutional models. I generalize a lot, you'll see, as we go through this, because we don't have a lot of time. But it's generalizing, large organizations around the world today are driven by a model that I describe as scalable efficiency. The key to success is do everything faster and cheaper.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  And just keep doing it faster and cheaper and you'll be successful. And for over a century, it's led to hugely, huge growth of large institutions around the world. So it's hard to argue with that at one level, but given the change in the world, that model is becoming less and less efficient, actually. And instead, I believe the institutional model that we need to embrace is what I call scalable learning.

• 3:43Speaker 00

  And that's a model where the focus is on having everyone in the organization learn faster together. And specifically, I have to be careful because when I talk about learning, most executives say, "Oh, you're talking about training programs, workshops. We have a lot of those." And no, I'm not, because there are two different forms of learning. One form is sharing existing knowledge, which you do in a training session or workshop. You're listening to an expert and you're gathering knowledge and you're acquiring what they already have.

• 4:17Speaker 00

  In a rapidly changing world...

• 4:21Speaker 00

  Anything we know today is becoming obsolete at an accelerating rate. So if all you're doing is sharing existing knowledge, good luck. You're sharing an increasingly obsolete asset. I believe that learning that's most necessary and powerful in this changing world is learning in the form of creating entirely new knowledge that never existed before. And you don't do that in a training room. You do that in the workplace by confronting situations that have never been confronted before and learning how to address them in ways that create more value. And so that's a very powerful form of learning. Unfortunately, very few, I mean, again, generalizing in large organizations,

• 5:06Speaker 00

  you have research labs and innovation centers where that kind of learning is permitted, if not encouraged. But in the rest of the organization, it's no, just focus on doing the assigned tasks. And I believe everyone in the organization, even janitors in a facility, should be focusing on how to learn faster in the form of creating new knowledge. So I'm sorry, it just went on a bit too.

• 5:33Geoff Nielson?

  You know, it's interesting, John, I want to get back to how we go about that learning. But I wanted to just pause and recognize that what you're describing around this learning at all feels very countercultural to a lot of the narratives and the investments that we're seeing from CEOs, from boards, from investors, where AI is a tool to basically turbocharge scalable efficiency. Right? Thinking about AI as, you know, how do we do more with less resources, less cost, and ultimately, less staff? And so if that idea is ultimately wrong-headed, it feels like an awful lot of people are headed in that direction.

• 6:14Geoff Nielson?

  Can you unpack a little bit, you know, why that might not be the best course of action anymore?

• 6:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, it's definitely the case. In my experience, if I build trust with a leader and have them in the privacy of their office, I have two questions about AI. How quickly can I automate? And how many jobs can I eliminate? Those are the only two questions on their mind. It's all about freeing, you know, cutting costs again, scalable efficiency. But the challenge is that the more efficient you become, it's a diminishing returns kind of... Result that the more efficient you become, the longer and harder you have to work to get the next level of efficiency. And, and again, I think the challenge in, in a rapidly changing world is we need people

• 7:02Speaker 00

  who are going to confront these rapidly changing environments and find ways to create much more value. And if you're eliminating people, you're not going to have that, that resource, that capability. You're just going to keep doing what you've always been doing, but in a rapidly changing world, that's becoming obsolete. So it's a challenge.

• 7:25Geoff Nielson?

  Well, so it sounds like that's where the new knowledge seeking comes into play, that we need fundamentally new ways of doing things, not just, you know, the, the old way, but faster. And, you know, you're suggesting that that does ultimately require people. Is that fair?

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, and if it's okay, I can give a brief example that I think is, is illuminating about the potential. And it's a, a clinical laboratory company in the healthcare industry. And in that company, they noticed that their customers were becoming more and more unhappy and leaving at an accelerating rate. And the employees in their call centers were becoming more and more frustrated and leaving their jobs. And so the head of the call center operation, call center department called all the people together. And he said, first thing, I promise none of you are going to lose your jobs. You're all going to stay employed.

• 8:26Speaker 00

  But your first assignment is to go work with the IT department to figure out how you can automate all these routine calls that are consuming all your time, where you're just reading a script because it's a call that hundreds of other people have dealt with. So automate those calls, get those off your plate. And then we'll, the free time that's been freed up, come together and focus on the calls that you're getting where customers are confronting totally unknown, unexpected situations, and find creative ways of responding to those, those questions. And he organized them into small groups. He called them pods of five people.

• 9:09Speaker 00

  And each of them had the focus on these new, new questions.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Short story is that very quickly customer satisfaction went way up. Passion levels of the workers in the department, the call center department went way up because now they were doing things that nobody had ever done before. It wasn't just reading a script that anybody could read. It was, you know, coming up with new ideas and new approaches to problems that had never been encountered before. So I think it's an illustration of what the potential is if we really focus on freeing up people from routine tasks and focus, not eliminating them, but focusing them on the new situations that are being encountered.

• 9:53Geoff Nielson?

  Well, and what's interesting to me about that story is that that foundation, and you mentioned it, of trust, right? Being able to have the trust with your employees for them to actually, you know, not worry about their job and do what's right for the organization. And that seems to be one of the traps that I'm watching so many organizations get stuck in, which is if, you know, you're standing on a pedestal as CEO saying, you know, basically what we want to do here is have the fewest number of staff possible, and then you're expecting those same staff to, you know, help you, you know, implement this automation. Like you're kind of, the staff are kind of negotiating down the barrel of a gun, right?

• 10:37Geoff Nielson?

  And it, like, I'm, I'm curious, how do you see things playing out for organizations that aren't able to cultivate that trust and take the, you know, the path that we're seeing so much of these days?

• 10:49Speaker 00

  Well, I think they're on the track to be eliminated in the rapidly changing world if we're not prepared to embrace the changes that are occurring, not just deal with them, but embrace them, view them as an opportunity to learn new things and come up with ways to create new value. You're going to be out of work. It's a challenging world.

• 11:13Geoff Nielson?

  If you work in IT, InfoTech Research Group is a name you need to know. No matter what your needs are, InfoTech has you covered. AI strategy, covered. Disaster recovery, covered. Vendor negotiation, covered. InfoTech supports you with the best practice research and a team of analysts standing by, ready to help you tackle your toughest challenges. Check it out at the link below and don't forget to like and subscribe. We're just inundated these days with all these stories of, you know, what feels like companies doing the wrong thing here. And, you know, as I'm sure you're feeling acutely too, it feels like these days, we're just, we're just bombarded with all these narratives of, you know, what's going on with AI, what's going on with work.

• 11:58Geoff Nielson?

  And, you know, my sense is that almost all of them are very self-serving for, you know, whoever is, is telling the story and where they're trying to get money. But just, just while we're at it, John, I'm curious if there's any other kind of common narratives you're hearing in the media these days about AI or the future of work that you think are BS or you think are worth debunking?

• 12:22Speaker 00

  Why, how many hours do we have? I think most, most of the coverage of AI has been very superficial and, um,

• 12:32Speaker 00

  yeah, I don't think, I think what we really need to focus on is, um, the opportunity to take over many of the tasks that are being done by people. I believe people should never have been doing those routine tasks. If you can tightly specify routine tasks that are done in a standardized way every time, why have a human do that? We as humans are not, you know, suited for that. We make mistakes, we get tired, we get distracted. Let the machines do that. Focus the humans on creativity, imagination, curiosity. And I think that that's what's missing here. It, um,

• 13:16Speaker 00

  Brings up a whole other theme or topic around AI because a lot of the discussion of AI is about the imperative for reskilling. We need to reskill people. And again, you'll see in our conversation, I focus a lot on semantics and definitions of words. For me, skills are things that are valuable in a specific context. It's how to operate this machine in this factory. That's a skill, very valuable in that factory, but everywhere else, who cares? Skills on how

• 13:52Speaker 00

  to do mathematical calculations or whatever. So skills have value in a specific context. I focus on, and I believe we, rather than focusing on reskilling, we should focus on cultivating capabilities. And what I mean by capabilities are things that are valuable in every context. And I think uniquely human capabilities, curiosity, imagination, creativity, collaboration, all of those are going to be extraordinarily valuable and necessary in a rapidly changing world. But very few organizations spend time really cultivating those capabilities. In fact,

• 14:34Speaker 00

  in large organizations, many of these capabilities are deeply suspect. Curiosity? You're asking too many questions. Read the manual. Do the job as assigned. And so I think we really need to shift at a fundamental level from skills to capabilities and bring out those capabilities, which I believe all human beings have, but we just haven't cultivated them.

• 15:03Geoff Nielson?

  So I want to ask two separate questions, I guess, about that. The first one is about the mindset of organizational leadership and making the case that this is worthwhile. Because I think, as you said, there's a lot of organizations out there that sort of treat it like, you know, the CEO or the executives of the board, they're the head and all the other workers are just hands. Like, just, just. Do what we say, we're the brain here. We're going to tell you what to do, so do it. Don't, don't go asking those questions. Don't think about it. Just do what we ask you to do. And you're saying that's fundamentally not the right way to, you know, run and develop a company. So I'm curious, you know, what would you say?

• 15:45Geoff Nielson?

  And I'm sure you've had this conversation with your fair share of executives. You know, how do you make the case for taking that, that, that learning-based approach?

• 15:58Speaker 00

  Well, it's complicated. Again, you'll find that a lot of the things I talk about are connected in one way or another. But in this context, I think one of the keys is helping executives to understand in a rapidly changing world. On the one side, it's very challenging. There's increasing pressure. But on the other side, there are exponentially expanding opportunities. We can create far more value with far less resource far more quickly than would have ever been imaginable a few decades ago. But very few executives, in my experience, are focused on those opportunities. They're focused on the challenge. We're under increasing pressure. We need to squeeze harder. We gotta do the job.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  And I think it ties into another whole theme, which we, hopefully, we can go into, dive deeper on. But it's this notion of the emotions that are driving the leaders. And in my experience, most leaders today, even though they won't acknowledge it or say it out loud, are driven by the emotion of fear. They see more and more pressure. They see that CEOs have been turned over at an accelerating rate. The lifespan of a CEO is shrinking at an accelerating rate. They're very afraid. And so that's driving them to hold on to what they have and squeeze harder versus really

• 17:24Speaker 00

  being excited about the opportunity that's out there and moving beyond the fear to find ways to address those opportunities.

• 17:33Geoff Nielson?

  The fear piece is really interesting to me, and I agree with you. In my experience, I've seen that too. I've seen it at the executive level. As you can imagine, when you have executives who are operating from fear, it creates a culture of fear that permeates through the whole organization. And I think societally, we're just fed through the media a diet of, be afraid, everything is crazy. And so I guess just on a practical note, how do you overcome that? How do you rid yourself of that fear mindset and get back to this mindset of opportunities and growth?

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Well, it's complicated, and it's the reason I ended up writing a whole book on the journey beyond fear, because it's not something with a two-sentence answer to that. The first step is actually acknowledging the fear and acknowledging the limits of the fear, because I think for most people, they won't even admit that they're afraid, because if you're afraid, that means you're weakling. And why would you ever say you're a weakling? So you come through with conviction and strong emotions. Actually, I believe one of the things we're seeing in the world today is the increasing prevalence of anger.

• 18:51Speaker 00

  And I believe that if you probe underneath that anger, you'll find that it's actually driven by fear. But anger is a good, strong emotion. I can be angry. That's good. That's strong. So I think acknowledging, first of all, recognizing you have fear, and then recognizing how limiting fear is, that it makes you risk averse, that it isolates you, you're much less willing to reach out and connect with other people, because your fear says, I've got to do it all myself. And if you see the limits of that fear, now you'll start to say, okay, is this really the best thing for me, in terms of getting more impact and achieving more of what's meaningful to me? And then it starts you on a journey

• 19:36Speaker 00

  of really exploring what are the things that really excite you and motivate you, and finding ways to embrace those rather than the fear that's holding you back.

• 19:49Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah, it's, yeah, as you said, and you know, I'm sure wrote extensively about it. It's easier, you know, said than done, but it feels like it's so important to be able to do that. And there's so much resting on that and breaking free, you know, through that journey. So, you know, let's, let's go back to the second piece I wanted to unpack, which is, okay, assuming you can move, you know, you can move beyond fear, you can acknowledge that, okay, the world is full of opportunities. I can't tackle them all myself. I need to work with my team. I need everybody, you know, in an environment of trust and on board with this. You know, I want to come back to this idea of learning and continuous learning

• 20:31Geoff Nielson?

  and learning on the job. It's not, you know, it's not a workshop. It's not something you do in a seminar. What does that look like? You know, and maybe if it's not something that, you know, works in a, you know, in a 20 second soundbite, if you can give some examples of how, you know, you've seen organizations tackle that effectively.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  No, well, it's again, there are many different dimensions to it. Part of it is, you know, encouraging people. One of the things I talk about is a shift in leadership models. Because I think today, most, the, the mark of a strong leader today is someone who has an answer to all the questions. No matter what the question is, you can count on the leader to have an answer. And by the way, if they don't have an answer, maybe it's time to get rid of them and find somebody who does. And I think we talk, you know, talk a lot about the surveys showing that trust is eroding in all of our institutions. And very few

• 21:33Speaker 00

  people ask why. And I think one of the key reasons is we have leaders who say they have the answers to all the questions. There are two possibilities. One is they have no idea how rapidly the world is changing and all the new things that are emerging, or they're lying. In either case, why would you trust them?

• 21:54Speaker 00

  So trust the roads. And I believe the mark of a strong leader in this, in the future, is going to be a leader who has the most powerful and inspiring questions. And who will freely admit they don't have an answer and ask for help. And so I think that's what's really a key requirement to start to build more of a culture in the, in the organization that says, first of all, questions are not only okay, they're absolutely essential in a rapidly changing world. And it's not only okay to ask for help, it's essential to ask for help. And I will say too, that in, in the course of my research, I found that one of the keys to accelerating learning in the form of creating new knowledge

• 22:39Speaker 00

  is coming together into small groups. I call them impact groups, but it's typically anywhere between three to 15 people who share a real excitement about a certain opportunity and who on the one side support each other. They develop deep trust-based relationships. That's why it can't be a large group. 15 is probably the max. But they, they have deep trust with each other and they're supporting each other. If something fails, not to worry, we'll make it work next time. And also challenging each other to say, what could we do to have even more impact? How do we get to the next level of impact?

• 23:20Speaker 00

  And so that, those groups, I, you know, I've come to believe no matter how smart or talented any individual is, they're going to be a lot more effective in this learning if they come together into small groups. And part of the small groups too, just as, again, I could go on forever, but one of the key attributes of these small groups to accelerate learning in the form of creating new knowledge is bringing people together from very different backgrounds and experiences. So they're not all from the same, you know, school, department, whatever. But they're coming at it with very different angles and perspectives.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  And it helps to accelerate the, the development of new ideas.

• 24:08Geoff Nielson?

  How do you functionally, as a leader, set up a group like that? I really like the idea. I've been an advocate of things like that. You mentioned pods before. I love that concept. How do you set that up? Does the group have a leader? How clear does the mandate need to be for what they're achieving? Is it something they do longitudinally? Or do you just give them kind of a short burst of concentrated time to work together? What are some of the most important parameters there?

• 24:38Speaker 00

  Well, I think some key parameters. Number one is a really powerful and exciting question. What is the question or opportunity that we want this group to address? And metrics for performance. So how would we measure our progress towards answering this question? And a key element in these impact groups is the focus is on action and impact, not just conversation. Because in large organizations, you have a lot of teams, and they come together every Friday and have really interesting conversations, and then they go back to work. The focus here is on what actions can we take? Do we need to take? How can we measure the progress?

• 25:22Speaker 00

  And how can we learn so that we can have even more impact over time? It's a very different model and powerful when it's implemented.

• 25:32Geoff Nielson?

  No, I really like that. And that helps kind of clarify some of the ways we can see even more impact from it. I did want to come back to something you said earlier about the erosion of trust in institutions. And this has been on my mind lately as frankly, one of the societal cancers that we're dealing with right now, that we've just seen sort of this linear decline in trust in institutions. Like you name it, basically every institution has lost its reputability, at least in some circle. And I don't know if it's accelerating, but it feels like it's at an all time low. And so can you maybe just clarify a little bit? How do we get out of that?

• 26:17Geoff Nielson?

  Is it just about putting in a leader who's willing to ask questions? Like what's sort of your vision for a society with more trusted institutions?

• 26:29Speaker 00

  Boy, again, many different approaches, answers here. I think it requires fundamental change. I think one of the tools that I've become very passionate about is what I call corporate narratives. And again, I have to be careful because when I talk about narrative, as most people think, you're talking about stories, corporate stories. And you know, leaders will say, well, I have a corporate narrative. We began in a garage. We faced incredible obstacles. We overcame them. We accomplished amazing things. That's our narrative.

• 27:08Speaker 00

  No, for me, a narrative, first of all, it's about the future. It's about, you know, what do you see primarily in the future? Is it primarily a threat or an opportunity? And what's your call to action to the people you're addressing? Who are in the, in a case of a corporate narrative, it's actually people outside your organization, not your employees, it's your customers, your stakeholders. What's your corporate narrative for them? And the example that I like to give, it's one of the few that I know of and would welcome suggestions or ideas if there are other ones. But it was Apple Computer back in the 1980s, 1990s.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  Steve Jobs came up with a corporate narrative, which was condensed into the slogan, "Think Different." But when you unpack that slogan, the narrative was for decades, we had digital technology that took away our names, gave us numbers, put us in cubicles, made us cogs in a machine. Now, for the first time, there's a technology that can allow us to express our unique potential and individuality. But it's not going to happen automatically. You need to think different. It was a call to action to the people outside of Apple to think different and to address a huge opportunity. And I think it's the reason why for many people, Apple at the time became the equivalent of a religion.

• 28:34Speaker 00

  It was speaking to such a deep aspiration that people had. And I think that can be a very powerful way to energize and excite not just the customers and people outside the organization, but the employees. Because you're helping those people outside your organization achieve something that has never been achieved before. And so...

• 28:56Speaker 00

  I do think that that's one of the ways to really move forward.

• 29:00Geoff Nielson?

  I, you know, I talk a decent amount about Apple and to me, they're a really interesting example. And it's, you know, the fact that they're in tech, but they're so design forward and they've, you know, with Think Different kind of fundamentally challenged the market to like, yeah, think differently about technology and no, this isn't this kind of geeky, difficult to use thing. It can be, you know, extension of you and it can be, you know, a fundamentally good experience. So I'm curious for organizations that want to, you know, challenge themselves to do this and reimagine what they can be. How much of that do you see as being done through, you know, kind of sniffing out new

• 29:45Geoff Nielson?

  technology versus just kind of raw creativity about, you know, the market that they're serving and what their products and services are and how they fit the lifestyles of their, of their users or of their buyers or of their, you know, constituents?

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Now, again, complicated, a lot of different things coming together, but in this context, I've become very focused on a specific form of strategy, which I call zoom out, zoom in. And it comes from actually having the opportunity to work with many of the most successful tech companies in Silicon Valley. And what I found is they had an approach to strategy, which was very different from most traditional organizations. The zoom out, zoom in is focuses on two time horizon. One time horizon is 10 to 20 years. That's the zoom out. Zoom out 10 to 20 years and focus on identifying what's a really

• 30:50Speaker 00

  exciting exponentially large opportunity that we could be addressing.

• 30:56Speaker 00

  And then zoom in. And here it's a very different horizon at six to 12 months. And on that horizon, the questions are, what are the two or three initiatives, no more, two or three, that we could pursue in the next six to 12 months? It would have the greatest impact in accelerating our movement towards that bigger opportunity? And how would we measure progress in addressing that opportunity? But I think it can be a very powerful way to start to overcome fear. First of all, if you see a really large opportunity in the future, that can be inspiring and exciting. But for many people who are driven by fear, they're going to say, that's just a fantasy. That's never going to happen.

• 31:39Speaker 00

  But if you can show tangible progress in the next six to 12 months towards that opportunity, now you start to overcome the skepticism. And people start to say, get excited and say, how can I join? How can I participate? And so I think that's one way of really starting to move forward is really engaging in the exercise of moving, looking ahead. And I think obviously, one of the challenges I face from executives is, come on, John, the future's so uncertain. You know, how can you possibly know what 10 to 20 years is going to look like? And I think one of the examples, there are relatively few examples that have been published

• 32:22Speaker 00

  or publicly available on Zoom Out, Zoom In. But one of them is a small tech startup in the 1970s, in 1980s in Redmond, Washington. It was a company called Microsoft. And Bill Gates pursued a Zoom Out, Zoom In approach. And on the Zoom outside, this was back in the 1980s, he had a view of the two future opportunity that was summarized really in two sentences. One, well, it was basically that the computer industry is increasingly going to be on the desktop. The desktop is where the future is. And

• 33:03Speaker 00

  At the time, that was viewed as a fantasy by most executives. I was in a board meeting of a mainframe company at the time and they were dismissing Microsoft as this toy company. But what he did on the Zoom outside, number one, he did not develop a detailed blueprint of what the computer industry was going to look like in 20 years from now. But it was enough specificity so that he could really focus his near-term actions. And he focused on two trends that were pretty predictable, even in an uncertain future. One was the exponential price improvement of the computing devices.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  And the other was the, he saw in large companies, long lines of very frustrated employees waiting for their opportunity to ask the mainframe a very simple question. And the frustration and unmet need there was very powerful. He said, if I could provide a desktop device that would provide answers to those questions immediately, in real time, they would buy them in a minute. And so, again, it wasn't a detailed blueprint of the future, but it was enough, it was focused on reasonably predictable trends and enough detail so that he could focus his actions in the short term to say, how can I become a leader in desktop?

• 34:27Geoff Nielson?

  I like that clarification about specificity without it being, you know, an entire, you know, map of what the world's going to look like 20 years from now. Because to your point, John, you know, it feels like so many leaders now are using the rapid and increasing pace of change of technology to kind of throw up their arms and say, well, I can't predict anything anymore. I don't know what the future looks like. And using it as an out to say, well, I'm actually not going to do the exercise because who knows? And so you end up in this sort of fear spiral. But it sounds like you're saying like that, that's actually no excuse at all, that in spite of the pace of change increasing, you should still be able to make specific calls

• 35:10Geoff Nielson?

  and specific bets that you can anchor your firm around. Is that fair?

• 35:14Speaker 00

  Yes. If you don't have a focus and destination, you're going to be very challenged. I'm a bit of a contrarian on many things. And one of the most popular things these days is the notion of agility. We need to become more agile. That's the key to success.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  And my challenge to that is, well, if agility is just responding as quickly as possible to anything that's happening around you, millions of things are happening around you. You're going to spread yourself way too thin because you have no focus on what's really important. What are the things that are going to generate the most value over time? And so I think it's one of the reasons in large organizations today, we're seeing things spread out much too thinly across too many initiatives because they're trying to be agile, but they have no sense of what is it that is really the big opportunity that we should be focusing on? And so I think that's that's a challenge.

• 36:18Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah, no, I can. I can absolutely relate to that. It feels like without that North Star, you're just trying to go in every direction at once as fast as possible.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, as fast as possible. It's again, it's about speed and efficiency.

• 36:34Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  Having a sense of where you're headed is, in my experience, absolutely critical. And then being able to measure progress. I'm a big proponent of metrics in terms of how would we measure the progress we're making and addressing those big opportunities in the future?

• 36:53Geoff Nielson?

  So when we're thinking about where we're going or generating new ideas or sort of the art of the possible, you know, you in the past have been a big advocate of this idea of the edge and kind of, you know, listening and understanding about what's going on at the edge. Can you share, you know, maybe for the audience that isn't familiar with that idea? You know, what the edge is, what your kind of practical advice is around it and, you know, how and if it's changed recently for you?

• 37:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, it's been a key theme of my work on many levels. One is this notion of the edge as being a

• 37:31Speaker 00

  What's the right word? I don't know. Launchpad for seeing new opportunities. So one way of thinking about edges is just areas that are today relatively marginal, but over time could become more and more central. So you could think about edges in terms of in global economy, the developing world versus the developed world. What's going on in the developing world that potentially could be embraced by the developed world?

• 38:02Speaker 00

  Generational edges, so looking at younger generations coming into workforce, coming into the marketplace, their edges today. And what can we learn from their unmet needs that are going to grow over time as they become more central to the workforce? And edges in technology, I mean, I think they're all the frontiers of technology that are being addressed and what experiments are going on, innovations going on today that potentially could scale into core technologies. So there are many different dimensions of edges, but I'm a strong proponent of exploring edges to see emerging trends

• 38:45Speaker 00

  that, again, you have to become confident that they will be sustained, but they start to generate ideas for what these emerging opportunities are. And then another piece to the edge, which it has, again, a number of dimensions, but I've become a strong proponent of what I call scaling the edge,

• 39:10Speaker 00

  which, you know, it deals with the issue of transformation and change. The challenge I see there is for large organizations is most leaders, if they see the need for fundamental change, they will call their leaders together and they will announce what I call a top-down, big bang approach to change. We need to change everything. And because we're a large organization, it's going to cost a lot of money. And because it's a large organization, it's going to take a long time. But trust me, wonderful things will happen once we make that change.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Well, the response I I've seen this in in corporate meetings is when the executive is making this announcement, everybody's smiling, talking, yes, yes, yes, we've got to do this. Then they go into the privacy of their office and figure out what they can do to undermine this this new initiative. It's going to cost a lot of money. We don't have money to spare. We're on a tight budget. It's going to take a long time. We've got to focus on quarterly performance. We can't be distracted by long term initiatives. And so it calls out, and this again is a big message of mine to leaders, is when thinking

• 40:31Speaker 00

  about transformation, never ever underestimate the power of the immune system and the antibodies that exist in every large organization and will motivate, will will move quickly at any indication of change to crush it. So if that's the challenge for large organizations, I believe the approach to change is what I call scaling the edge, which is rather than going top down, trying to change everything all at once, find an edge to the existing business that today is very moderate in terms of revenue and and people. But if you've done the zoom out, that edge has the potential to become the new core

• 41:14Speaker 00

  of your business over time and focus on scaling that edge and driving the change in that edge. And early on, it takes relatively little money and effort, but it's it starts to generate real results. And then you draw more and more people from the core out into that edge, and it becomes the new core of the business. But very different approach.

• 41:38Geoff Nielson?

  And it feels like that comes back to that executive mindset of basically listening versus telling, right? Like being able to actually do the work to understand where the edges are in your organization that are actually performing well and, you know, are comfortable doubling down or tripling down, you know, your investment in that area and and just, I guess, having the

• 42:03Geoff Nielson?

  You know, the absence of ego to say, oh, that may not be, you know, my idea, but you know, it's working well and therefore it's right for the organization.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, but again, I think it really requires looking into the future to see what are the really exponentially big opportunities and really then looking for edges within the existing organization that potentially could be the launchpad to address that that opportunity.

• 42:30Geoff Nielson?

  That that makes sense. You used a very specific word when you were talking about, you know, people who are looking at the edge, trying to understand it, trying to scale it. And that was explorers. You said, we need explorers for the edge. And that's a word that I know has come up, you know, many times in in your research and your publications. I'm curious if you can unpack a little bit more about, I guess, the value you place on the explorer and, you know, what we can do, I guess, to cultivate more exploration.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. Well, again, it was a key theme in my book, The Journey Beyond Fear, because one of the questions that I confronted was, well, if fear is not a good emotion, what's the best emotion to be cultivating to help you achieve more impact that's meaningful?

• 43:23Speaker 00

  And I did a fair amount of research looking at environments where there's sustained extreme performance improvement. And I said, what can we learn from those environments? And they were very diverse environments. They were not just in the business world, but one of the areas I was focused on was extreme sports, big wave surfing, extreme skiing. What could we learn from environments where there's sustained extreme performance improvement? And what I found was that all the participants in those environments had a very specific form of passion.

• 43:57Speaker 00

  And I've come to call it the passion of the explorer. Because again, I find when I use the word passion, everybody nods their head, but you know, in workshops, I've gone around the room and asked each person to define what they mean by passion. And everybody has a different definition. They use the same word. They all think they're talking about the same thing, but they're talking about different. So Passion of the Explorer has three components to it. One is the people with this passion are really excited about having more and more impact in a specific domain. It could be anything from gardening to nuclear physics, but it's a domain where they're not just wanting to be in it, not just wanting to have some impact,

• 44:41Speaker 00

  wanting to have more and more impact over time. And secondly, they're really excited when confronted with unexpected challenges. Because it's an opportunity for them to learn and have even more impact over time. How can I address this? And then the third attribute of the passionate explorer is when confronted with those challenges, the person with the passion, their first response is, who else can I connect with? Who can help me get to a better answer faster? So they're deeply connected and develop deep trust-based relationships with others because they're expressing vulnerability. They're saying, I don't know. I don't have an answer. I need help. Can you help me? And so those three things together,

• 45:26Speaker 00

  combined, really help to accelerate learning. And it's bringing people together with passion. So in the context of scaling the edge, one of the key themes that I have or messages for leaders is when you're starting to focus on a particular edge to scale it. Their tendency is, I gotta bring people with the right credentials and resumes and you know, education, expertise to come together. No. Find people who are really passionate about that opportunity, excited about it, and want to come together with others. And they'll come together and they'll find a way to scale that edge

• 46:10Speaker 00

  in ways that will be amazing. So it's a focus on passion rather than skills.

• 46:19Geoff Nielson?

  It's really interesting, and I haven't quite thought about it that way before. But the idea that, you know, there are organizations where there's just organizationally more passion or less passion in the workforce. Organizations that are better at cultivating it or better frankly at suppressing or repressing it. And so whether you're a leader or whether you're just working in an organization. I mean, I think it's, it may be more difficult to measure, but you can get a pretty good sense of whether you're in a high-passion or low-passion organization and who the passionate people are around you. And it feels like it's, you know, again, we've talked about this a few times already. It feels like we're sort of moving in the wrong direction now around passion,

• 47:04Geoff Nielson?

  that some of the mandates coming from the top around scalable efficiency, around automation, like they're actually killing passion or repressing it rather than growing it. Is that also your read of the situation that we're in?

• 47:18Speaker 00

  No, absolutely. I think it's a big challenge. I, one of the questions I ask is how many large organizations are measuring passion in their organization? Virtually no one is. What they measure is worker engagement. You know, do we have engaged workers? And again, definitions vary, but basically it means, do you like the work you do? Do you like the people you work with? Do you respect the company you work for? That's an engaged worker. Okay, let's take one of those engaged workers and tell them that their work is going to have to fundamentally change. What? Change? I like the work I'm doing. I'm not going to change. They become a source of resistance to change.

• 48:02Speaker 00

  And on the other side, the passionate workers, and by the way, I've done a survey of the US workforce. And our best estimate from the survey was that at most 14% of US workers have this kind of passion about their work. And I'm actually surprised that it's as much as 14% because I think that our large organizations find passion deeply suspect. Passionate people ask too many questions. They take too many risks. They deviate from the script. Why would you want a passionate worker? You want somebody who's gonna do the job, read the manual, do the job reliably and efficiently.

• 48:44Speaker 00

  And so I think one of the big challenges we have is how do we, first of all, recognize the potential of passion and then create environments that will draw it out and encourage it. And I should say too, I do get a lot of resistance from people saying, you know, come on, John, some of us are capable of passion, but most of us just want to be told what to do and, you know, have the security of an income. My response on that is, let's go to a playground and let's look at children five or six years old. Show me one child that's not really excited about exploring new things, doing new things, and coming together with others to explore.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  What happened? They went to school and they were taught, listen to the teacher, memorize what the teacher has to say, and show you've memorized it on the exams. Passion is not part of the education system. It's, you know, go out on the playground and do it, or do it at home. And it was to prepare students. I've done a lot of work on the US public school system, and the US public school system was explicitly designed to prepare children to go into the workforce, where it was, read the manual, do the job as assigned. And so I think, I believe we all have that passion within us, but it's just being suppressed.

• 50:10Speaker 00

  And we need to create environments that will draw it out and encourage people to come together with passion.

• 50:18Geoff Nielson?

  Well, and I really like that vision, as you just said, almost as a capstone for what the future of work is, that it's not this manual repetitive grunt work, it's not just tell me what to do, it's actually bringing that passion, that creativity, that curiosity, that spirit of exploration into what you're doing. And there's, you know, I'll just sort of zoom in a little bit to it, but you said something really interesting, which is that you believe that everybody naturally has this passion and it's kind of, you know, beat out of them or repressed. And I just want to, I want to confirm that with you because the implication there is that in an organization, if you have the right leadership

• 51:03Geoff Nielson?

  and the right mindset, you actually can cultivate this passion at a broad scale. It's not just cultivating it in, you know, 14% of your employees, it's you can, you have the power to have a fully passionate workforce. Do you, do you buy that?

• 51:22Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Again, I think it's a fundamental human capability that's within us. And I think, again, creating the right environment. If you have leaders who are asking really powerful and inspiring questions, if you're helping people come together to address opportunities. I mean, there are many things you can do to help draw out that passion, but you have to focus on wanting to draw it out versus wanting to suppress it. It's one of the big challenges in large organizations today.

• 51:54Geoff Nielson?

  Absolutely. I want to take us down actually a completely different road that we haven't covered yet. So, you know, given that we talk so much about the future of work and the future of technology, you know, we've talked a lot about business leaders and, you know, one of the areas of interest for me as well is technology leaders and, you know, what the future of enterprise technology and enterprise, you know, IT looks like in the organizations and how all this kind of rapid change, AI, new technology is impacting that. So John, you wrote, you wrote an article an awfully long time ago, basically suggesting at the time in 2003 that IT still matters,

• 52:39Geoff Nielson?

  when there was this question about whether IT still matters. And I feel like that's a question that sort of re-entered the cultural zeitgeist of, you know, AI is here and well, we'll just use that and, you know, that's too important for IT. And while aren't technology projects all so slow and cumbersome? And so I, I wanted to ask you, you know, now that 20 some odd years have passed, you know, do, do you believe that IT still matters? And what role does it play now versus in the past, if different at all?

• 53:14Speaker 00

  Boy, I think it's more and more central to everything we do. I mean, I'm confused about the distinction between AI and IT. I mean, AI is IT is what's delivering AI. Is it not technology? I don't know. So I think, but it, but then you've got all kinds of connections. The one that I'm most interested in, I think at this point is the technology and IT around human wellness and longevity. Technology is increasingly helping us to not just address diseases once they happen, but avoid diseases.

• 53:57Speaker 00

  And I think that's going to lead to dramatic change in, in who we are as, as people. You know, what's our average lifespan? Is it really 80 years or 70 years? It's not, it's 140 years. And ultimately, I think it's infinite as we move forward with this IT. So I think that the

• 54:20Speaker 00

  Technology is increasingly going to change everything in the world and AI will be helpful in terms of helping us to harness that technology and create more value, but it's not going to happen just by itself. It needs the other technologies.

• 54:37Geoff Nielson?

  So let's, let's, let's maybe follow that road a little bit.

• 54:42Geoff Nielson?

  Looking at this future that's technology-enabled and is extending lifespans, you know, can you share a little bit which, you know, if there's any, you know, kind of healthcare developments, any pharmaceutical developments with AI, with tech that you've been following recently? Or just, you know, what sort of edges or frontiers you are following that have gotten you excited about the, I guess, the optimistic opportunities for this tech?

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, again, I think there are many different dimensions. The AI certainly is helping in the diagnosis of diseases or becoming much more efficient and effective in terms of identifying diseases at an earlier stage, finding treatments that will be specific to the individual that are helpful. So all of that is great, but I think that other dimensions and AI plays a role in it, but there's a whole area that is described as biosynthesis, which is, you know, synthesizing biology, creating new organs from scratch. You know,

• 55:47Speaker 00

  today, if you have a kidney disease, you have to wait for a kidney donor to actually donate a kidney for you. What if you could make that kidney in the laboratory and just insert it? That's what biosynthesis will do, and it is doing it today for mice. I mean, we're already down to the level of doing it for, for smaller animals. It's just a matter of time before we'll find a way to do this for human beings, and I think it's going to lead to dramatically different lives where, you know, our biology is, whatever happens to the biology, we can replace it. So I don't know.

• 56:30Geoff Nielson?

  Yeah, no, it's really exciting and it's I always find myself kind of veering back as well to the you know, the the human health and longevity implications as well. And you know, li- living well versus just, you know, how to squeeze a little bit more efficiency out of your, you know, your business engine, right?

• 56:49Speaker 00

  Well, again, I think that I believe we're facing a world of fundamental change around everything that we do. But one of the areas of fundamental change is the healthcare industry. I mean, today, again, I generalize, but the healthcare industry says, wait until the person gets sick. And when they get sick, diagnose it and treat it. That's the healthcare industry. Wait a minute. Why do you want to wait until somebody gets sick? Why don't you want to focus on what you can do to help the individual stay healthy and become even healthier over time? And I think one of the things we're seeing today, which I get encouragement

• 57:30Speaker 00

  from is the the emergence of what are broadly described as wellness coaches, people who invest the time to really get to know you as an individual and your biology and your body and your emotions and whatever, and will help you to improve your wellness and connect you with a broader range of providers. It could be anything from breathing consultants to meditation to whatever. But they're they have a large network of experts that they're bringing together to help people improve their wellness. And I think that's a it, by

• 58:09Speaker 00

  the way, it just taps into a whole big opportunity that I see emerging in the world, which is not really being effectively addressed yet. But it's what I call the trusted advisor. And I think that one of the things that's really

• 58:29Speaker 00

  Necessary is in a rapidly changing world, there's actually going to be explosion of options, more and more options available. And people are going to be overwhelmed with all the options that are available. And having somebody they can trust, who will get to know them as individuals extremely well, and then help connect them with the most relevant and helpful of the very, of the thousands of providers, that's huge value. And I think the key again is building trust. I mean, if you're, whenever you work with somebody, a customer, and all you're doing is recommending your own products and services to them, there's not a lot of trust.

• 59:13Speaker 00

  I know you're just trying to sell more products and services. Versus, you know, no, I'm going to connect you with whatever experts are relevant to you at the time, and will monitor and evolve over time. That's a huge opportunity that I think addresses an unmet need that we as individuals have, is the need for trust and the need to help navigate through a rapidly changing world.

• 59:36Geoff Nielson?

  Is, is the trusted advisor human? Because there seems to be this narrative right now that, wow, that your best trusted advisor is AI. AI knows more than everybody, so the only trusted advisor you need is generative AI.

• 59:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, good luck. You know, I, I think again, it's a challenge that I certainly don't want to dismiss AI. I think AI can be very helpful to trusted advisors. But at the end of the day, I believe that the, the elements, the key elements for trusted advisors are curiosity, creativity, imagination, collaboration. And I think those, you know, AI can do some of that, but humans are much better at that over time. And so it's.

• 1:00:23Speaker 00

  I think there's still be a significant role for human beings to be there to to provide those capabilities and not just rely on technology to come up with the the answer at the moment.

• 1:00:36Geoff Nielson?

  Right, that AI is an enabler or a tool that the trusted advisor has in their toolkit, but is not a substitute.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  Absolutely. Yeah. So it's a big opportunity and I think it, again, I'll just say too, one of the things that I find so intriguing about this is I'm seeing elements of this emerge. I mentioned wellness coaches, which I think is an example, early example of trusted advisors. And they're growing at a pretty significant rate. They're, it's a a growing industry or a business type. And over time, I believe trusted advisors will emerge in specific domains like wellness and health, or travel, or finance, or whatever, homeownership, whatever.

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  But over time, if they build trust and can connect to a broader and broader range network of of expertise, they can expand beyond their initial focus. So wellness advisor could ultimately become a financial advisor. I know your your physical condition very well and what you really need physically. Let me help you with the finances to serve those needs and start expanding more and more to provide ultimately a whole range of capabilities that the person needs. Because I trust you, I've built a deep trust-based relationship with you.

• 1:02:07Geoff Nielson?

  And it sounds like knows you as well, right? Like gets to really know and understand your specific needs that are multi-dimensional.

• 1:02:15Speaker 00

  Committed to understanding and curious, wanting to always know more, learn more. And yeah, for sure.

• 1:02:25Geoff Nielson?

  So, so, you know, just being mindful of the time here, John. I just wanted to get sort of your, I guess, final thoughts and advice for business leaders who may be listening to this, you know, the, what they should be walking away with and thinking about, you know, implementing in their own lives or organizations.

• 1:02:45Speaker 00

  Why? You know, I think the first level is just the rapidly changing world that we're living in. And I think the

• 1:02:58Speaker 00

  there are very few executives really understand how fundamentally the change, how fundamental the change is and how rapidly the change is unfolding. So I think that's a key, key requirement and starting to focus again on looking at trends that are reasonably predictable and where can we start to focus to create more value. But I think ultimately, and it's the reason I wrote my book, The Journey Beyond Fear, is recognizing that don't get distracted by the technology. I mean, if all you do is focus on the technology,

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  you're not focusing on what's really going to make a difference because what

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  you know, I go back a bit and in my career, I was trained as a business strategist. I was trained to believe that strategy is everything. If you have the right strategy, win, focus on strategy. Over the years, I've come to believe it's less about strategy and more about psychology. But if we don't understand the emotions that are shaping our choices and actions, the best strategy is just going to sit on a shelf somewhere.

• 1:04:11Speaker 00

  And it, boy, I get drawn into many different areas here, but one of the things this draws into is, and my advice for executives is, in the AI world, there's a lot of debate about is AI going to be good or bad?

• 1:04:33Speaker 00

  And my response to that is AI is a tool. You know, I give the example of a hammer. If you give me a hammer, I can use it to crush your skull or I can use it to build a wonderful home for you.

• 1:04:50Speaker 00

  It's not the tool that's good or bad. It's how the humans are using that tool. And so focus on emotions, the emotions that are driving humans. And you'll have a better view of how this technology is going to be used and evolved and where you can take advantage of it. And so I think that that's

• 1:05:12Speaker 00

  My key, increasingly, my key focus with executives is this question of the emotions. And starting with their own emotions, look inside, because I think, again, most executives are unwilling to even admit to themselves that they're afraid, much less tell anybody else. And then recognize how limiting that fear is. And then finding ways to cultivate this passion of the explorer. And I view that as a process of exploring the future to see where these exponentially large opportunities are that are emerging and addressing those.

• 1:05:54Speaker 00

  And I think it's, again, I don't want to suggest it's easy, it's very challenging, but I think that for those who do it, the world is creating huge opportunity and we need to fundamentally change in order to address that opportunity. I will also say, I'm sorry if I go on too long, but I find that every large organization that I know of has a digital transformation program in their company. But when I probe to ask, what's the digital transformation doing, what's the focus?

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  It's how can we apply digital technology to do what we've always done faster and cheaper, more efficiently? That's digital transformation. My response is, for me, transformation, use the metaphor of the caterpillar to the butterfly. If it's not evolving in a fundamentally different way, it's not transformation. If you're just making the caterpillar walk faster, good luck, but that's not transformation. And I think that's the real potential here is to really think about transformation at a more fundamental level, based on the opportunities that are emerging, and then driving the change through scaling the edge.

• 1:07:19Geoff Nielson?

  I love the quote about the caterpillar and the butterfly. And I think it's so apt for what's actually happening and where people should really be thinking about how to do things better. John, I thought that was a great summary of so much of the conversation we've had here so far. So much insight packed in there, so much to think about. I want to say a big thank you for joining today. It's been really insightful. I've appreciated the conversation.

• 1:07:45Speaker 00

  Well, then I should say too, that as you can probably tell, I'm very passionate about the opportunities and the need for change. And I've actually just created a new center called the Center for Growth. And it's offering programs based on my book, The Journey Beyond Fear. So I would encourage people, if they're interested, to read the book, The Journey Beyond Fear. But the Center for Growth has its own website and would welcome people coming to learn more through the programs that we're offering.

• 1:08:19Geoff Nielson?

  Amazing. We'll check it out. If you work in IT, Infotech Research Group is a name you need to know. No matter what your needs are, Infotech has you covered. AI strategy? Covered. Disaster recovery? Covered. Vendor negotiation? Covered. Infotech supports you with the best practice research and a team of analysts standing by, ready to help you tackle your toughest challenges. Check it out at the link below and don't forget to like and subscribe.