Pod Insights Decoder Everyone hates Ticketmaster. Why'd Trump go easy on them? About this episode Today, we’re talking about the major antitrust lawsuit against Ticketmaster parent company Live Nation, and what it might mean for antitrust and competition law in general now that the Trump DOJ has decided to settle its part of the case — even as several states including California, New York, and Texas carry on.
To break it all down, I’m joined by Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Feiner. Lauren’s our resident court expert, and she’s been chronicling this trial from the beginning.
Links:
States’ anti-monopoly case against Live Nation continues | The Verge
The Live Nation trial restarts with a ‘velvet hammer’ | The Verge
Live Nation settles government antitrust suit | The Verge
The Live Nation settlement has industry insiders baffled | The Verge
Listen to Live Nation CEO’s alleged threats to a concert venue | The Verge
The threats and bare-knuckle tactics of MAGA’s top antitrust fixer | WSJ
The Trump admin just gave Live Nation the gift of a lifetime | NYT
How Live Nation allegedly terrorized the concert industry | The Verge
The US government is trying to break up Ticketmaster | The Verge (2024)
Taylor Swift vs. Ronald Reagan: the Ticketmaster story | Decoder (2023)
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Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Decoder is produced by Kate Cox and Nick Statt and edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane.
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Transcript 6,979 words · 12 speakers
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1:32 Speaker 03 Hello and welcome to Decoder. I'm Neelai Patel, editor in chief of The Verge, and Decoder is my show about big ideas and other problems. Today, we're talking about a major antitrust lawsuit against Live Nation, which owns Ticketmaster, and what it might mean for antitrust and competition law in general now that the Trump Department of Justice has decided to settle its part of the case, even as several states, including New York, California, and Texas, carry on. To break it all down, I'm joined by Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Finer. Lauren's our resident court expert, by which I mean she's been in the courtroom chronicling this trial from the beginning. If you're a longtime Decoder listener, you might recall an episode we did on Ticketmaster back in 2023, in the wake of the Taylor Swift Eras Tour fiasco. That's when Ticketmaster's website crashed during the first major rush for Eras Tour tickets.
2:17 Speaker 03 It was such a scandal, and Swifties are so politically powerful, that Live Nation was dragged in front of Congress after a widespread backlash spilled over into the mainstream. In 2024, the Biden Department of Justice followed up on that scandal by launching an antitrust lawsuit against Live Nation, seeking to break it up, to split Ticketmaster off from Live Nation to try and combat predatory practices and increasing ticket fees. This case has always seemed like a slam dunk regardless of partisan affiliation. Nobody likes Ticketmaster, and breaking up Live Nation would score political points for whoever finally pulled the trigger. It was also supposed to be a sign of strong bipartisan antitrust support. So even though the Trump DOJ featured all new antitrust leaders, there was good
2:59 Speaker 03 reason to believe that those new folks, in particular, Trump antitrust chief Gail Slater, would keep up the pressure, especially against tech companies. You might remember that J.D. Vance used to go around calling for the breakup of Google and saying that he was a fan of Biden FTC chief Lina Khan. But nothing about the second Trump administration is predictable or stable. In early February, following the reports of some major tensions at the DOJ, Gail Slater was pushed out. And then just one week into the Live Nation trial, the DOJ settled its portion of the case, shocking many of the industry and extracting only what many see as pretty weak concessions. Trump himself reportedly intervened in the case directly to demand that speedy settlement, which of course stirred up accusations of
3:42 Speaker 03 outright corruption. But the lawsuit isn't over yet. Because the case against Live Nation included dozens of states, a bunch of attorneys general have refused to give up the fight. So Live Nation remains in court, fighting off accusations that it operates an illegal monopoly in the ticket business, which is illegally tied to its promotions business, which is illegally tied to its venue business. But the DOJ settlement raises all sorts of complicated questions about where antitrust policy stands in the United States overall, especially with regard to ongoing cases against big tech companies like Apple and Amazon. Lauren has been tracking all these cases and all these developments in detail: the trial, the settlement, and now the state's continuing the fight. So let's get into it. Before we start, a quick reminder that you can listen to this episode or any episode
4:23 Speaker 03 of Decoder completely ad-free by subscribing to The Verge. Just go to theverge.com/subscribe. Okay, Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Finer on the Live Nation antitrust lawsuit. Here we go.
4:46 Speaker 03 Lauren Finer, your senior policy reporter for The Verge and a resident in courtroom experiencer, because I think what's happening in courtrooms for you right now is just a full existential experience at all times. Welcome to Decoder.
4:59 Speaker 04 Thank you. Spent a lot of time in courtrooms lately.
5:02 Speaker 03 All over the country. There are other cases we can talk about at a later time. The one I want to talk about with you today is the Live Nation case. The United States government is suing Live Nation, which most people know of as Ticketmaster, for antitrust claims. This seemed like a winner. Like, no one is happy with Ticketmaster. This case sort of dates back to Taylor Swift and the Eras Tour. Like, it was very hard to buy an Eras Tour ticket. The sites crashed. Everyone said, well, Ticketmaster's a monopoly, and we stumbled our way into an antitrust case. At a very high level, what is the Department of Justice alleging against Live Nation/ Ticketmaster?
5:34 Speaker 04 In this case, basically, there's two main things we're talking about that the government initially went after Live Nation/ Ticketmaster for. One thing is that they're saying this company used the fact that it owns both the promotions business, where artists go to have their tours marketed and sold around the country, and their ticketing business, Ticketmaster. It used the fact that it had both of those to kind of leverage its power with venues across the country. And the second part of this is focused specifically on amphitheaters. Live Nation owns many amphitheaters around the country, or it operates
6:14 Speaker 04 them. And because it controls all of those amphitheaters, it's really hard to book an amphitheater tour without going through Live Nation. Those things are ways that Live Nation/ Ticketmaster essentially is able to have this huge amount of power over the concert industry as we know it today, according to the complaint.
6:35 Speaker 03 So if you're an artist, you have to sign up with Live Nation in order to get access to the venues that it owns. If you run an independent venue and you want to get artists to come put on a show, you have to sign up to use Ticketmaster for your tickets to get access to those artists. And if you just want ticketing, you maybe have to accept Ticketmaster's offers of artists and rates in order to run their ticketing platform. They're in control of all of it. What has been the argument that's illegal? Just that it's driving up prices and it's a bad experience when you're trying to buy a Taylor Schwift ticket? What has been the the main this is bad argument that the government has presented?
7:09 Speaker 04 In the US, it's not illegal to just be a big company and have a lot of power. What is illegal is if you have a dominant share of the market and you use that power in a way that's anti-competitive, that blocks out rivals, that, you know, just uses bad behavior, basically, to break the law and make it so that there's less competition in general. So in this case, you know, some of the things that the government has been talking about that Live Nation Ticketmaster allegedly engages in are things like having these long exclusive contracts with venues that make it hard for other players to get a foothold in those
7:51 Speaker 04 markets, or trying to condition the use of one of its services on another. So that is really hard, again, for other rivals to try to work with those other elements of the concert industry.
8:04 Speaker 03 You were in the courtroom while the DOJ legal team was presenting its case. What did you learn from the evidence that came out of trial?
8:10 Speaker 04 Right now, it's we're still in the government's case. So we haven't heard Live Nation's full defense yet. But during those first few weeks of trial, some of what we heard was from the CEO of SeatGeek, who said that, basically, he decided that they needed to offer retaliation insurance to venues they were pursuing as a rival to Ticketmaster to be their primary ticketing provider. Basically, they had to guarantee that if these venues lost shows because Live Nation was refusing to give them to to them anymore because they were no longer Ticketmaster customers, that they would be able to make them whole in some way.
8:54 Speaker 04 We kind of heard a lot about how there were these implicit or maybe not so implicit threats, depending on how you perceive them, that the company allegedly said to rivals or to venues that it was trying to keep under its control, that it was a way that it maintained its power over this whole ecosystem.
9:18 Speaker 03 There's some like really interesting evidence presented in this case. You actually broke this story. There was some audio of a call from the CEO of Live Nation, Michael Rapinoe, talking to the head of the Barclays Center here in New York. And they're negotiating over whether or not their deal is is over and what might happen if the Barclays Center doesn't re-up with Ticketmaster. We actually have the audio. Again, this was exclusively broken on The Verge by Lauren. Let's run that here.
9:45 Speaker 05 The question on the ticketing side is, there's language in the contract that says, if a certain number of games are not played, that the contract extends at the same, the ticketing contract extends at the same terms for an additional year. We don't believe that that clause has been triggered.
10:01 Speaker 06 In COVID, you don't fucking believe it's been triggered, really. Every other team in the entire United States has figured out that has happened. But you don't think with COVID, without one ticketed event, that was triggered?
10:12 Speaker 05 Well, it's not true. It's just not true what you're saying, Michael.
10:15 Speaker 06 But it doesn't deliver, it doesn't deliver off what we need. I've told you that. I've told you, we got a new venue in town, and the economics have changed in the marketplace. So, but what I told you from day one was it was, you know, going to be a tough time to deliver tickets or concerts with a new competitor in town, regardless of ticketing. But anyways, John, I'm gonna go. I'm disappointed. I don't think you were ever gonna renew with us. I think you've been set to do a SeatGeek deal, and I thought we deserved more than this. But anyways, I appreciate your time.
10:48 Speaker 05 All right. Thank you, Michael.
10:50 Speaker 03 Lauren, that's quite a call. We ran it on like our Instagram, and people were like, this just sounds like a negotiation. But the government presented that as evidence of monopoly. What were we hearing there?
11:00 Speaker 04 What you heard there was the then CEO of the Barclays Center, John Abumandi, talking with the CEO of Live Nation, Michael Rapinoe. And basically, Abumandi was breaking the news that Barclays Center was going to go with SeatGeek over Ticketmaster as its ticketing provider after their contract ended. Now, this was 2021. The Barclays Center believed that their contract with Ticketmaster would expire. That year, Michael Rapinoe disagreed. He felt that there was a clause in that contract triggered because of COVID that should have extended the contract. So Live Nation basically says he was he was mad that Abumadi was interpreting this contract differently.
11:44 Speaker 04 And he believed that they shouldn't be able to get out of their contract this early. And that's why he got so angry there. Abumadi testified that he took this as a threat and that he took Rapinoe bringing up the threat of losing shows to a new competitor in town as a way of Rapinoe saying, well, if you don't go with Ticketmaster, then, you know, maybe we just won't send you these shows.
12:10 Speaker 03 And that feels like the tying, right? If you don't sign up for Ticketmaster, the artists that we represent at Live Nation won't come through Barclays Center. They'll go to another venue. In the courtroom, did that that go over as the government intended it to? Could you tell if that was convincing?
12:24 Speaker 04 We actually heard Live Nation bring up this call in their opening argument, which was interesting because I think that kind of primed us to hear this F-bomb that was alluded to in Live Nation's opening. So I think when we heard it, in a way, it it hits a little bit differently because it's the F-bomb kind of comes at a time that's not really part of this whole UBS arena discussion. It's about this anger over this clause in the contract being triggered. But at the same time, I think you do, with the context from Abumadi, understand how he might have interpreted this as a threat. But I could definitely see the jury interpreting it either way. I think as we've seen in those Instagram comments, some people think this is just how business goes and other people
13:08 Speaker 04 think this is an inherent threat.
13:12 Speaker 03 We need to take a quick break. We'll be right back.
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13:55 Speaker 02 This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior-like beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.
14:25 Speaker 07 Instagram teen accounts come with automatic protections that limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.
14:44 Speaker 08 This episode is brought to you by Subaru. You know that place your mind always wanders to? The lake? The mountains? The homes of the people you love most? The completely redesigned 2026 Subaru Outback is built to help you get there. With legendary capabilities, standard symmetrical all-wheel drive, and the confidence to go further. The 2026 Subaru Outback. Love never looked so good. Visit subaru.com/outback to learn more.
15:14 Speaker 03 We're back with Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Finer. The case is proceeding, the evidence is being presented, people are taking a stand, and then it settles. The DOJ settles, the states decide to keep going, but the DOJ settles. You wrote a piece about that settlement, and it's just a straightforward headline, "The Live Nation settlement has industry insiders baffled." You talked to a whole bunch of people about that settlement in the industry, around the industry. Explain why the reaction was bafflement.
15:43 Speaker 04 First of all, I think when the settlement came out, it was a pretty chaotic day in court. The judge didn't know what was going on, even trial attorneys there somewhat didn't seem to know what was going on. But the DOJ, and I think it's about eight states, decided to settle, and the rest of, you know, a couple dozen or so states are continuing on. But what was reached in that settlement, when I talked to people in the industry about it, they basically said, "We don't really know who asked for this." A lot of the things that were in the settlement were things that they felt were just not that helpful, or wouldn't really fundamentally change the dynamics of the industry. They did say there were a few things that did seem like they would be better than the status
16:28 Speaker 04 quo, like more transparency for artists on ticket sales, on their own ticket sales, and certain caps on ticket fees. But then other things they felt like were just either so minimal that it didn't do enough, or something that they didn't even really want, like, you know, access to Ticketmaster's backend for other rivals to plug into in certain cases, which we heard at trial, that backend is something that's like, out of the 1980s, one of the witnesses testified about. And the other thing was that they have to divest a certain number of exclusive booking contracts for amphitheaters. They're
17:09 Speaker 04 not actually divesting any amphitheaters. They're just saying that other promoters can book into them, essentially.
17:18 Speaker 03 There's a lot of reporting that Donald Trump personally was involved in this settlement. Ari Emanuel, who used to be a board member at Live Nation, called Trump and personally asked him to intervene. There's reporting from the Wall Street Journal that says Trump was just walking around saying, "Why isn't this settled yet?" How much Donald Trump is in this settlement?
17:37 Speaker 04 If you go based off of the Wall Street Journal reporting, it sounds like Trump was ushering this along. And, you know, we got the settlement about a week or so into trial. It sounded like there was a meeting at the White House, based on the Wall Street Journal report, where some of this came together. So it sounds like there was a significant amount of involvement based on that report. It's pretty unusual to see a president involved in something like this at that level. Typically, antitrust cases are resolved, whether they're brought to trial or settled, based on the antitrust laws. And that's something that's done at the staff level and then at the political appointee level within the DOJ. Now, of course, like, that's not something
18:20 Speaker 04 that we've heard from the DOJ or Live Nation. I think the DOJ would say, this is something we came to based off of our understanding of antitrust law and the best deal that we thought we could get. That's going to be the big question, especially as we see the judge review the settlement as part of the Tunny Act review, where he has to basically determine, is this in the public interest?
18:43 Speaker 03 Until the DOJ settled, this case felt like a win, no matter what your politics were. Like, no one likes Ticketmaster. I feel like specifically after the Eras Tour disaster and artists starting to complain pretty widely about Ticketmaster and so many who started to complain, the idea that antitrust enforcement was bipartisan was on the rise. Right? There were some conservatives who were really excited about antitrust enforcement. You have Andrew Ferguson, who's the head of the Federal Trade Commission, who makes antitrust noises all the time. He replaced Lena Kahn. J.D. Vance was at events that you've covered for us, where he said he actually liked Lena Kahn. She was the only member of the Biden administration that he liked and thought was doing a good job because she was trying to preserve competition.
19:30 Speaker 03 What has changed? Because it feels like not going after the one that everyone hates is a big change.
19:36 Speaker 04 Yeah, it does feel like a big change. I think the tides of how antitrust enforcement works in the US have changed with this administration. I think they have still talked a lot about wanting to go after big tech and go after big corporate power, but they're much more conciliatory in certain ways in terms of their tone, in terms of their willingness to pursue settlements. You know, I think we heard a lot from Lena Kahn and Jonathan Cantor under the Biden administration that they weren't so into settling cases. They weren't really interested in that. They were interested in pushing the boundaries of how antitrust law is interpreted, and you do that through bringing cases. And that doesn't really seem to be the MO of this administration.
20:22 Speaker 04 And then we kind of have a lot of other stuff going on behind the scenes where, you know, right before this case kicked off, we saw the head of the DOJ Antitrust Division at the time, Gail Slater, leaving that post. And it was kind of unusual how it happened. She posted on her personal X account that she was no longer there. And this was after we heard a lot about this behind the scenes reporting about some backroom deals that went over her head in a completely separate case between HPE and Juniper. And then, you know, in this case, there's been more recent reporting showing that some of that backroom deal making might have still been going on around this case as well.
21:05 Speaker 03 Gail Slater was pretty well respected in the antitrust enforcement community. A lot of people thought that she would actually continue to pursue the antitrust strategies that Lena Kahn and Jonathan Cantor were going after under the Biden administration. Are you saying that she got pushed out because she didn't want to settle these cases, or that the backroom deals sort of frustrated her and she just left on her own?
21:27 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, I think based on the reporting that's out there, it seems like there were a lot of disagreements between how Gail Slater wanted to run the antitrust division and how higher-ups at the DOJ were willing to engage with lobbyists and corporate entities. And, you know, after this whole separate settlement in the HPE Juniper case happened, we saw two of her top deputies fired, and one of them has since come out and basically said there was a scandal here and that there was this backroom deal-making happening. And, you know, that seems to be something that's raised a lot of suspicions around this case as well and her exiting from the agency.
22:12 Speaker 04 And I should say, of course, the DOJ says that, you know, those deputies were fired because of insubordination and that they put out a pretty nice statement about Slater after she left. And they say that basically this settlement they reached with Live Nation is something that's in the public interest. So that's how they're positioning this deal and what's gone on here. But I think there's just a lot of flags raised based on what's been happening at the agency these past few months.
22:42 Speaker 03 Who knows what actually happened here, but it does seem like Live Nation was able to lobby their way into a settlement in a way that usually doesn't happen or should happen. What they have not been able to do is convince the states to also drop their case. So which states remain in the case and what are they litigating? Is it the same as the federal government or is it different?
23:03 Speaker 04 There's several states that are still involved in the case. It's, I think, more than a couple dozen are still litigating this case. They've hired on a pretty high-profile attorney to lead their trial, Jeffrey Kessler, who led the NCAA antitrust case on behalf of college athletes. So they're still moving forward. And, you know, this is a group that's made up of both Republican and Democrat AGs. New York, California, Tennessee, Texas are some of the ones that are still on this case. There's been, you know, a handful of states that did decide to settle. But a lot of these states still see reason to push forward with a trial and try to achieve
23:48 Speaker 04 more than the DOJ did.
23:50 Speaker 03 Is that just political? You know, state AGs have to run for office. They get to say, "I was the one who stopped Big Bad Ticketmaster." Is there more political upside if you're a state attorney general trying to go after Ticketmaster than if, I don't know, you're in the Trump administration?
24:06 Speaker 04 I certainly think that there's a significant political incentive for them there. You know, this is something that, you know, if you have an issue with tickets, your state AG's office might be the place you go to complain. So, you know, it makes a lot of sense that this would be something they hear a lot about from constituents and that they feel like is worthwhile for them to keep pursuing. And the calculation might be a little bit different than it would be for the federal government in terms of what their constituents want to see and what they'll remember to vote for them for.
24:37 Speaker 03 There's a lot of history with Ticketmaster and Live Nation. This company was formed out of mergers. Some of those mergers were approved in the Obama administration. The antitrust lawsuit was obviously brought under the Biden DOJ. That case, the goal was to break it up, to say, "We actually made a mistake in the Obama administration by allowing these companies to merge. The Biden DOJ is going to try to break these companies up and create new kinds of competition." Is that still the goal of the states? Is that something that they can achieve?
25:03 Speaker 04 I think it's still something that is on the table in this case. If they make it all the way through trial and the jury finds in their favor, that's certainly a possibility that they end up with a breakup of this company. Now that said, I mean, breaking up a company, having a court order, a breakup, is still kind of a long shot in any case. It's not a slam dunk by any means, but it's certainly still on the table and achieving more than what the DOJ got is certainly a possibility if, again, they win at trial.
25:38 Speaker 03 Let's talk about that for a second. So, assuming the states stay in it, assuming that Live Nation and Ticketmaster are still as unsympathetic to a jury as I think everyone has always assumed they would be. And the states win. What does a realistic outcome look like? What are the states hoping to get?
25:53 Speaker 04 What all of the rivals and the people who have been pushing for this case believe is that to really change the dynamic in the industry, you need to break up Live Nation and Ticketmaster because that's kind of the source of the leverage that this company has over various parts of this industry. Again, that's going to be hard to get. It's not impossible, but it's difficult to ask for a breakup. There's other things that they might try to do instead. They might order an outright sale of more of the amphitheaters or maybe put more restrictions on the kinds of contracts that Live Nation can enter with venues or how long it can enter them. So there's definitely other levers that they can pull.
26:37 Speaker 04 And perhaps they'll be in place for longer than the DOJ was able to negotiate or affect more parts of its business. So even if we don't get a breakup, there could be other things that we see happen.
26:48 Speaker 03 What happens if, I don't know, Texas decides to settle and New York and California win? Does Ticketmaster face different regulation in different states? Or will it be a national outcome?
26:59 Speaker 04 I think there would likely still be a national outcome because the case was brought under both federal antitrust laws, which the states are allowed to enforce as well. Some of the states brought them under their own statutes, which also allow them to pursue damages in some elements.
27:18 Speaker 03 We have to take a little quick break. We'll be back in just a minute.
27:29 Speaker 01 New and exclusive holiday decor just launched online at The Home Depot. Check out the viral Grand Duchess collection with smart holiday lights you can control from your phone. Easily customize the twinkle across trees, wreaths, and garlands to match your holiday vibe. Create stunning light effects, then switch it up with the tap of your fingers. Even the man in red will be impressed. Shop the holiday decor you want, online only, at homedepot.com.
28:00 Speaker 02 This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior-like beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.
28:30 Speaker 07 Instagram teen accounts come with automatic protections that limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts.
28:50 Speaker 08 This episode is brought to you by Subaru. You know that place your mind always wanders to? The lake? The mountains? The homes of the people you love most? The completely redesigned 2026 Subaru Outback is built to help you get there. With legendary capabilities, standard symmetrical all-wheel drive, and the confidence to go further. The 2026 Subaru Outback. Love never looked so good. Visit subaru.com/outback to learn more.
29:20 Speaker 03 We're back with Verge senior policy reporter Lauren Finer. We just discussed how the states are continuing their case against Live Nation with the hopes of achieving a breakup of Live Nation and Ticketmaster. Now I want to talk about what might happen next, and broadly about antitrust policy in this, the second Trump administration, which seems to have proven that it has no interest in blocking mergers, breaking up big companies, or acting as a check on corporate power. This case feels like a pretty good test of whether the states can step up in the absence of Trump federal law enforcement. You have whatever's going on with our Department of Justice and our Federal Trade Commission, how are they going to operate their divisions? And then you have a bunch of states who are more active, who are pushing harder on a number of cases than maybe the federal government is.
30:04 Speaker 03 Are we seeing that dynamic equalize? Is that something that's going to last a long time? Can they be effective in trying to fill that gap? Or is this sort of a temporary Trump flip?
30:14 Speaker 04 I think this is not necessarily a new role for the states. States have always kind of served as this backstop for the federal government's antitrust enforcement. We saw the states move forward the case against the T-Mobile Sprint merger, which obviously didn't end up going in their favor, but they were the ones to usher this forward. Now they're stepping in on the Tegna Nextstar deal after the federal government cleared the way. It's not necessarily a new role for the states, but it's something that I think they're increasingly stepping up to do and realizing that it might fall on them more to do. Can they fully fill the shoes of the federal government? I think the issue is that they have far fewer resources than the federal government to pursue these cases.
30:58 Speaker 04 You know, even when you have 40 states on a case, they could still have far fewer resources than like the DOJ to hire experts and hire outside counsel. These are all really expensive things and things that take a lot of time. And when we saw the DOJ drop out of the Live Nation case, that was kind of a big question for the states was would they be able to hire outside trial counsel in time? Would they even be able to retain the DOJ's economic expert, which can often be a lot of money? So I think it's really tough for the states to fully fill those shoes, but we're certainly seeing a lot of them step up here and there's a lot of political incentive for them to do so.
31:41 Speaker 03 Yeah, I feel like the political incentive to go after Ticketmaster is high, but there are other big antitrust cases that are sort of looming, brought by the Biden DOJ, and I don't know what's going to happen to them. The one that is particularly in my mind is there's an antitrust case against Apple and the App Store. Apple is not a big bad by Ticketmaster. Like maybe some app developers think that, and I know Meta thinks that. But I don't know that the average consumer in the average state thinks that. And I'm not sure the state AGs can hold that one up, right? There's not as much political capital to run the Apple case to trial if Tim Cook manages to negotiate his way out of it with Donald Trump personally. We're seeing these big sweeping changes at the DOJ, right? Gill Sater's out, her deputies are out.
32:23 Speaker 03 This case is settling for pennies on a dollar and some concessions are on the margins. What do you think happens to cases that are pending like the Apple case?
32:31 Speaker 04 That case and the Amazon case is another federal case that's on the horizon. Those are still kind of a ways away from trial. So it's a little hard to predict like what sort of world people will even be living in by the time those get to trial. But I think we have just seen throughout these cases and throughout just messaging from the antitrust agencies that they're taking a very different approach. They're much more open to settling cases or engaging with corporate entities about how they could potentially reach a resolution outside of court than the prior administration was. So I think states are definitely aware of that dynamic. And I'm sure they're considering right now what they'd have to do to keep issues that are important to them moving forward.
33:16 Speaker 04 But they're also going to have to prioritize what's most important to their own constituents.
33:21 Speaker 03 That presence of corruption in particularly the second round of the Trump administration really colors everything. Is that having more of an effect across the board on antitrust, do you think? Or is it just a sense that you can negotiate with this guy directly and maybe you'll have to put some money in the ballroom fund and that's fine?
33:40 Speaker 04 I think in this administration, it feels like there's definitely a sense that, you know, there's more of an opportunity to get deals done. And some of that is out in the open, like the antitrust officials will say, like, we want to. Talk with businesses about how we can resolve our issues. And that's not necessarily inherently a bad thing. If you reach a resolution that resolves the antitrust issues outside of court, that's not inherently bad. It is a very different approach than Lena Khan and Jonathan Cantor took, where they would engage with business, but there was this more hostile relationship, I think, between the two. And I think you're seeing businesses respond to that.
34:22 Speaker 04 Businesses are trying to push through mergers that I don't think they would have tried under the Biden administration, or they would have had a much harder time, even if they'd eventually, potentially, went in court. It would have faced a lot more resistance. So I think businesses are well aware of this dynamic and they're acting accordingly.
34:42 Speaker 03 What would you make of the status of the conservative antitrust movement that we talked about at the start, right? Where you did have a J.D. Vance at Y Combinator events saying Lena Khan had done a good job, that Andreessen Horowitz was saying, "We have the little tech agenda and big tech is stifling innovation." All of that seems to have just gone away. Is it gone forever? Or is it gonna make a comeback as pendulum swing back and forth?
35:08 Speaker 04 Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely, we're not in that same place, where there's this like, really, you know, strong alignment, if not true allyship on this issue between certain factions of each of these parties. You know, it feels like things are much further apart than they were within this like, more progressive or populist antitrust movement that seems to be a little bit on the back burner right now. I think that said, there's still, you know, there's real concern and even animosity from a certain set of conservatives over big tech. And I don't think that's fully gone away. I think there's still concerns about their power. So it's possible we see that emerge in certain cases
35:52 Speaker 04 when it feels like the political dynamics can align enough for that to move forward. And it's possible we see a return to that kind of alignment in the future. But I think, you know, what happened under the Biden administration with Lena Khan and Jonathan Cantor, both in power, at kind of like, the peak of this populist movement, is really something that I think was quite unique. And it's a big question whether we'll get back to that peak again.
36:22 Speaker 03 I'm very curious to see what happens in that broader scheme of antitrust. Back to this case, though, what happens next? What are you looking for? When do you have to go back to a courtroom?
36:31 Speaker 04 Well, I think you tell me, but I, I, I think right now the Live Nation is, I mean, the states are finishing up their part of the case. I think that could happen this week and then we move into Live Nation's case in chief, where they'll defend themselves, they'll bring up their own witnesses to say why, you know, basically the way they do business is, is fair and that they treat their rivals like anyone would and that what they do for the concert industry is to the benefit of competition. So that's what we'll hear in the next few weeks. Then we'll hear closing statements from both sides and then we see the jury deliberate
37:15 Speaker 04 and then it'll be on the jury to decide was Live Nation liable for this anti-competitive behavior that the states are saying they engaged in.
37:26 Speaker 03 We're going to find out. I suspect the state AGs are going to stay hot on the case of Ticketmaster because it's, it's just such a public opinion winner for them, but I have no idea what happens in broader antitrust. Lauren, I think that means you're going to have to come back on Decoder very soon. Thank you so much for being on.
37:41 Speaker 04 Thanks for having me.
37:44 Speaker 03 I'd like to thank Lauren for taking the time to join Decoder and thank you for listening. I hope you enjoyed it. If you'd like to let us know what you thought about this episode or really anything else at all, drop us a line. You can email us at [email protected] . We really do read all your emails. Or you can hit me up directly on Threads or Blue Sky. We're also on YouTube. You can watch full episodes at DecoderPod. That's the same handle we have on TikTok and Instagram, at DecoderPod. They're a lot of fun. If you like Decoder, please share it with friends and subscribe wherever you do your podcasts. Decoder is production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Show is produced by Kate Cox, Nick Statt, it's edited by Ursa Wright. Our editorial director is Kevin McShane. The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. We'll see you next time.
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