Pod Insights Dear Hank & John 449: It Will Go Well And It Will End (w/ Sarah Urist Green!) About this episode How do I overcome my fear of performance art? How do I visit an art museum properly? How do I speak about my own work without feeling like a total fartface? Do I pursue my dreams or pursue something practical? How do I come to terms with the fact that I depend on receiving attention and praise for my work? How does a person get real art for their home? Can you help me get out of a creative rut? How did you both balance creativity and parenting when you were new parents? …Sarah and John Green have answers!
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Hank Green? You're listening to a Complexly podcast.
0:09 John Green? Hello and welcome to Dear Hank and John.
0:12 Speaker 02 Or as we're calling it this week, Dear Sarah and John.
0:15 John Green? It's a podcast where two spouses answer your questions, give you dubious advice and bring you all the week's news from, well, we'll see. At any rate, Hank is not available this week and so I'm joined by my favorite person, my spouse, Sarah Urist Green. Hello, Sarah.
0:29 Speaker 02 Hi, John. Thanks for having me.
0:31 John Green? Oh, my gosh. Thanks for being here. We just recorded our hit Project for Awesome Home podcast, Like Letters, where we read the letters that we wrote to each other before we started dating.
0:40 Speaker 02 Yes, and by letters, you mean emails.
0:43 John Green? I mean emails.
0:44 Speaker 02 And it's always a ride. It's always an interesting conversation, departure point.
0:51 John Green? Yeah, we read the first emails we ever sent each other way back 23 years ago, and we were already talking about art and writing. And here we are 23 years later, still talking about art and writing all the time.
1:03 Speaker 02 That's right. And with the questions that we have today, a lot of it is about, you guessed it, art and writing.
1:10 John Green? Yeah, so let's hop right into it, Sarah. You got a question for me?
1:13 Speaker 02 Okay, yeah, this one comes from Abigail. Dear Sarah and John, I am working on my art history master's degree in order to get a job at an art museum. I have recently been confronted by my greatest art fear, performance art.
1:26 John Green? Oh, my God.
1:27 Speaker 02 I attended a performance where the artist squirted syringes full of quote, unquote, "blood" into audience members' mouths.
1:33 John Green? Yikes.
1:34 Speaker 02 I knew that it couldn't actually be blood, but I did not want to find out. Of course, the artist could sense my fear and came right up to me. Turns out, it was cherry juice. If I'm going to work in contemporary art museums, I'm going to encounter more performance art. How do I overcome this fear? Artworks and anxiety, Abigail.
1:53 John Green? Abigail, I share this fear on such a profound level. One of the first times that Sarah and I ever hung out was at her art gallery where she was working. And there was, it was an opening, and as part of the opening, one of the artists did a performance. And I'm just going to throw it out there, Sarah, I don't think that artists, if you're like a sculptor, I don't think you need to do a performance. Just do a sculpture.
2:15 Speaker 02 I'm not doing this. I can't, I think if you want to perform, you perform, John.
2:21 John Green? Oh, God. So this, this artist. He had this candy that was candied crabs.
2:27 Speaker 02 Mm hmm.
2:27 John Green? Remember?
2:28 Speaker 02 Yes.
2:28 John Green? And he, as part of the performance, he handed out the candy and he watched me like, open it and put it in my mouth and like-
2:34 Speaker 02 Like little bitty, like inch long crabs.
2:38 John Green? That were candied.
2:39 Speaker 02 Crunchy.
2:40 John Green? And he, and he watched me put the candy crab into my mouth and then just like stared at me as I was like, "Yeah, mm, yeah, thank you, sir."
2:50 Speaker 02 Yeah.
2:50 John Green? It was so weird. Some performances are beautiful, like that Francis Elise piece where he pushes a big block of ice down the street in Mexico City until it becomes nothing.
2:59 Speaker 02 Yes. So the easiest gateway into performance art is watching video documentation of performance art.
3:06 John Green? Yeah, that's fine because it's not as stressful.
3:08 Speaker 02 And, and a lot of artists use that approach. Like, they want to do a performance, but it's important that it be in a specific place, like Francis Elise's piece. And then you can just watch it and then you don't have to usually feel that embarrassment or the anxiety of being there. But, I mean, okay, I will tell you one thing, Abigail. When I was making the video series, The Art Assignment, I made a video called The Case for Performance Art.
3:38 John Green? Yes.
3:39 Speaker 02 So I would recommend that you watch that. But I'll summarize it. I mean, I don't really remember all of it right now. But I'll summarize it by saying like, you have to learn to sit in discomfort.
3:52 John Green? Right.
3:53 Speaker 02 And that is-
3:55 John Green? That's actually how OCD therapy works.
3:59 Speaker 02 Exposure therapy.
4:00 John Green? Exposure therapy works.
4:01 Speaker 02 Yeah. I mean, it's kind of a good approach for a lot of contemporary art settings, not just about performance. I mean, I remember when I was working in a museum and I invited an artist to come give a talk and you're sitting there in the audience and you're like, "Oh, freaker, enough people gonna come? Did I publicize this well enough?"
4:27 John Green? Are they gonna say something weird?
4:29 Speaker 02 Right. Or are they gonna be a good speaker? You know, you, you pay for someone to come out and like, meet your community and you beg your community to come see it. And, and like, you put all this effort into this person and then they open their mouths and like, sometimes the ones you think are gonna be great- Are terrible and the ones that you think are going to be terrible are great and you're sitting there full of anxiety.
4:56 John Green? Again, you have to learn to live with uncertainty. That's what performance art is really about is living with uncertainty and artists in general, performance artists especially are pretty good at that. But as the audience, my feeling has always been, and you know how I feel about this, Sarah, I love a fourth wall. I love a strong wall between audience and art.
5:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:16 John Green? And so, performance artists are always breaking down that wall and making me participate in the art and that makes me uncomfortable.
5:23 Speaker 02 Not always.
5:24 John Green? Often, often, more than you'd think.
5:27 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:28 John Green? Who was that guy who wore the meat suit?
5:30 Speaker 02 Uh, Zhang Huan.
5:32 John Green? That guy. I mean, if you weren't wearing a meat suit around New York City.
5:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
5:36 John Green? That makes me so uncomfortable. Wasn't he naked underneath the meat suit?
5:41 Speaker 02 Okay, okay, here's what I'll add to this, Abigail. If you want to work in this field, you will likely find yourself in more of like a host position.
5:53 John Green? Yeah.
5:53 Speaker 02 You know, like where you've invited or someone you work with has invited this person to come do this thing. And like, when I've been in that role, I'm like, well, I guess I'm gonna have to do it. You know, I'm gonna be the participant, I'm gonna be willing, and I like just reconcile myself to that. But it's, it's tough.
6:17 John Green? You know, my favorite piece of performance art I've ever seen?
6:19 Speaker 02 Hmm.
6:20 John Green? Is, what's that woman's name? I remember no artist's names, as you can tell, and this is putting you on the spot. You might not remember her name either. I think her name was Kate, and she made a very small container for herself, then then she wore a business suit.
6:36 Speaker 02 Kate Gilmore.
6:36 John Green? Kate Gilmore. And then she had to break out of the small container inside of her, while wearing her business suit and her heels and everything?
6:42 Speaker 02 Yes, yeah.
6:44 John Green? That was great.
6:44 Speaker 02 That was great.
6:45 John Green? But again, it didn't make me do anything.
6:47 Speaker 02 She documented it.
6:49 John Green? She documented it.
6:50 Speaker 02 Yes. The one other thing that I will say is, when you're in a group setting and you experience a performance together and it's really awkward, there's usually a great moment after. Where you can sort of commune and commiserate with the people who were also in the audience.
7:11 John Green? Yeah.
7:11 Speaker 02 Maybe you're with a friend or a coworker, or, you know, maybe you just lock eyes with a stranger and have a shared moment of, oh, God, what is, what has just happened? So there's, there's also something that happens after the anxiety.
7:28 John Green? Right, right.
7:29 Speaker 02 That is the relief. And of course, performance artists trying to push, push social boundaries, push your limits of what is acceptable. And yeah, it's uncomfortable and, you know, it's not that much. You don't have to do it that much, usually, unless you're like working for a performance art biennial or something. In that case, good luck.
7:51 John Green? Godspeed. All right. We have another question from Sarah. I don't think this is you.
7:55 Speaker 02 It's not me. No.
7:56 John Green? Dear John and Hank and Sarah, how do I visit an art museum properly? Should I be analyzing the art like the former art major I was? Or should I be reading all the plaques to learn about the history of the art like the nerd I am? It never feels like there's enough time for both. Thank you, Sarah.
8:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's a great question. Why don't you take it first?
8:12 John Green? Well, I do like to read the wall labels, but I think mostly because I've been married for many years to a curator who writes them. And so I want to respect the work of the curators. But I like to make my way through an art show at my own pace and let my interest decide how fast I go, what I stop and look at. And I try to pay attention to two things. One is the art itself and the second is the way in which the art is presented to me. You know, is it chronological? Like, we just went to this incredible Kerry James Marshall show at the Royal Academy in London. And in that show, it wasn't really chronological. It was more organized by theme.
8:57 John Green? Here are some of his works about the Middle Passage. Here are some of his works about various public housing projects around the United States. Here are paintings that he made just for this show, et cetera. And I thought that was one of the best art shows I've ever seen, best contemporary art shows I've ever seen, partly because of the quality of the work itself, but partly because the work was presented to me in such an accessible way. And so I like to let my own interest guide me. And I, the other thing is that I try not to like judge myself or be in a position where I'm telling myself like, Oh, this is what a proper art enthusiast would do. They build very high walls, the art world. And they tell you like, oh, everyone's welcome here.
9:41 John Green? But then they don't make you feel welcome. You know, like art galleries are free and open to the public. But like, they don't make you feel like they're free and open to the public with their incredibly intimidating doors that don't have signs on them or have opening hours, you know? And like, that's something that drives me really crazy about the art world, the contemporary art world especially.
9:59 Speaker 02 You're totalizing this. There are ranges, there are more and less accessible places, but yes.
10:05 John Green? When I walk into David Swerner Gallery.
10:07 Speaker 02 That's a gallery. We're talking about museums.
10:09 John Green? When I, yes, there are more and less, there are more and less difficult museums to walk into. But every museum is a little intimidating for most people.
10:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.
10:19 John Green? And I think the art world doesn't do a good job of breaking down those walls sometimes. And so the thing I tell myself is like, there is no difference between me and an art enthusiast, a proper art enthusiast. Like, I, I, I am a proper art enthusiast if I like art.
10:32 Speaker 02 Right. So one of the first things I try to do when I'm entering a museum or preparing or getting into the right mindset for a museum visit is figuring out what exactly I want to see, you know, or what I want to see. How much time do you have? Do you, you know, do you have an hour? Do you want to be there for a short visit? Or is this going to be like a multi-hour slog? Are you at a museum that is in your hometown and you can visit again and again or have been there before? If it's something like that, like maybe you just focus on the things that are there temporarily.
11:10 Speaker 02 Maybe you're in Oslo and this is your only chance probably to ever visit the museum there.
11:18 John Green? Unless you're in Oslo and.
11:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, is that the word?
11:21 John Green? Yep.
11:23 Speaker 02 Then you may want to devote some more time and, you know, try to see more of it. But a lot of times when I go to a museum, I'll be like, you know what? I'm tired. It's the end of a long day of sightseeing or what have you. I am just going to pick a gallery that doesn't have very many people in it. I don't like really crowded galleries. So like, I'm gonna go, I don't think I'm necessarily interested in whatever this work is, but like, I'm just gonna give myself permission to like, enjoy this quieter space. And sometimes I'll like, do a walk around and say like, okay, I'm not gonna read any labels on this pass through. I'm gonna walk around the gallery,
12:03 Speaker 02 and I'm just gonna use my eyes. Because I don't like to switch between like, visually assessing something and reading. I actually really don't enjoy reading labels in the gallery. I find it awkward.
12:14 John Green? Oh, interesting.
12:15 Speaker 02 I mean, I like, I like having the knowledge. I love an audio guide. But I also like to pause. Anyway, I guess this is a lot of saying, like, if you were an art major, I think that you can entertain yourself in your head quite a bit about the work. And you should feel confident to say, you know what, today, I'm not gonna read labels. Or today, I am gonna read all the labels. It also depends, like, what are you looking at? Does the work tell you everything you need to know? Or could the label like, make your experience richer? So I would just give yourself the freedom to like, see how you're feeling, see how much energy you have. Is this a day for looking?
12:58 Speaker 02 Is this a day for reading? Is this a day for a little bit of both? And just feel confident to make your own choices.
13:07 John Green? I like that. Just don't judge yourself too much. This is like, thing in general.
13:11 Speaker 02 Oh, I do have a
13:12 John Green? When you're reading, when you're going
13:13 Speaker 02 What not to do?
13:14 John Green? What, what not to do?
13:15 Speaker 02 Don't tell the other people in your group what something means. Don't be like the know it all. Nobody likes that. I think you have a conversation with the people you're with, if you're with other people. That can be a great way, but like, ask questions about it together. As someone who's been to art school, nobody really wants a lecture from you.
13:37 John Green? I don't know. I kind of like it when you lecture me, but I hear you. All right, we got another question from Reina who writes, Dear Brothers Green. A year ago, I was awarded with an amazing grant to fund my art project. It's a lot of money and responsibility, and I feel like I've done an okay job as an administrator. But as an artist, even if I feel like my work is kind of cool, I do not feel like I can stand there on the day of the exhibition and give a speech about my work being great and important without feeling like a total fart face. How do you stand in front of a crowd and ask people to appreciate your little thoughts and little feelings portrayed into an art thing? Help the opening could be in two months. So this, so this is not just for artists.
14:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:12 John Green? Like scientists who have their posters at, at a, at a big gathering.
14:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:16 John Green? Or people in the humanities who have their papers read.
14:19 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:19 John Green? Like, this is the most horrifying thing in the world.
14:22 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:22 John Green? To like, have to stand by your poster while other people just walk past it and they're like, oh, it's a little bit about tuberculosis in the 17th century. Okay, yeah. And did you do this? You did. Tell me more about it. Oh, God, it's horrible.
14:38 Speaker 02 Are you at a science fair in this situation?
14:40 John Green? No, I'm at like one of these big tuberculosis conferences.
14:43 Speaker 02 Okay.
14:44 John Green? Where there is a room full of posters.
14:48 Speaker 02 Right.
14:48 John Green? Literal posters.
14:50 Speaker 02 And you stand next to yours?
14:51 John Green? And you stand next to yours.
14:53 Speaker 02 Okay.
14:53 John Green? And you wait as an adult with a PhD and a professorship or whatever. You wait for people to talk to you. It's horrible.
15:03 Speaker 02 Okay, so that sounds like a terrible situation.
15:07 John Green? And the same thing with artists.
15:08 Speaker 02 But Reina has to give a speech about their work.
15:12 John Green? But then they have to stand there.
15:14 Speaker 02 Yeah, but, but that's not what this is about.
15:16 John Green? Like, think about when we're at an art show.
15:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
15:19 John Green? Like, when we go to like, an art show.
15:20 Speaker 02 I think the question here is, how do you talk about your work in a way that, you know, like, I think it's hard. You've got to self-promote.
15:31 John Green? Yeah.
15:31 Speaker 02 You have to take yourself seriously, but not too seriously. It is a difficult balance to strike.
15:38 John Green? You have to be like, I'm a genius, but I'm not telling you that I'm a genius because that would be self-important.
15:44 Speaker 02 I think you have to find a way to talk about your intentions for the work.
15:49 John Green? Hmm. I'm about to go through this, actually.
15:51 Speaker 02 What you hope comes across.
15:54 John Green? Yeah.
15:55 Speaker 02 You know, this came from this point for me.
15:58 John Green? Yeah.
15:59 Speaker 02 And I think there is something that's sort of built in humility about that.
16:06 John Green? Right.
16:06 Speaker 02 Like, not assuming the essence of this work is da-da-da-da-da. Because like, you can't assume what other people are going to take from it.
16:14 John Green? Right.
16:14 Speaker 02 You can only know what you were trying to communicate.
16:18 John Green? Yep.
16:19 Speaker 02 Which, to be fair, you weren't trying to communicate through words.
16:23 John Green? Right. You were trying to communicate it through something like beyond words.
16:27 Speaker 02 Through artwork.
16:28 John Green? Yeah, like, usually precisely because it's hard to communicate with words.
16:32 Speaker 02 Right. I would make yourself talking points. I would not read from those talking points.
16:40 John Green? Agreed.
16:41 Speaker 02 I would speak simply. Don't use fancy words.
16:45 John Green? Try not to use fancy words, because again, you're not trying to
16:49 Speaker 02 Impress people with your vocabulary. You're trying to effectively communicate.
16:55 John Green? Your inspiration and also where this work came from and what it's trying to grapple with. I am about to go through this right now.
17:04 Speaker 02 Yeah.
17:05 John Green? I can, I think I can talk about this probably, that like, I have a new book coming out.
17:09 Speaker 02 You have to figure out your, it is a PR strategy, like, what do you want?
17:14 John Green? What you talk about, what you don't talk about, what you tell people the book is about, because like, they haven't read it. They won't be able to read it for months. And so you're setting up their experience of the book in some ways. And so when you're talking about your art, they're probably looking at your art at the same time. And you're shaping what they're seeing as you talk.
17:34 Speaker 02 So it's a great opportunity.
17:36 John Green? Oh, it's a huge opportunity, but that's what makes it so nerve-wracking. That's what makes you feel like a fart face.
17:41 Speaker 02 Right.
17:42 John Green? To quote Raina. Great word, by the way.
17:45 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think it's just, it's stressful.
17:48 John Green? It's so stressful. Like, I was on a walk yesterday. You were like, go take a walk because I was so stressed out that I couldn't function because I was thinking about the book and questions about the book and like finishing the book and sharing the book and what to talk about and what not to talk about. And you were like, go take a walk. And then I was taking a walk. And as I was taking a walk, I was like mumbling to myself what I will say and not say about the story and like what I will say in the Vlogbrothers video where I announce it and what I will say in the Instagram video where I announce it. And do I talk more about celebrity or do I talk more about the fact that we all participate in this content creation ecosystem now and that participating in this marketplace is a way of giving over our
18:30 John Green? our lives and ourselves and our experiences to for-profit companies? Like, I don't say that. That's like the wrong thing to say, but that's what I'm thinking about. And then I, so I just, I understand Raina's thing because I get so in my head because it is important, because it does frame people's experiences of what you're making.
18:48 Speaker 02 One thing you might do, we went with our daughter Alice to, her piano teacher held this thing called Performance Club, which was to get you ready for the recital. And she taught some breathing exercises for when you're feeling nervous, like to just put your finger on the top of your leg and like breathe up and move your finger towards your knee and pause and then bring it back down. Obviously, there's many different ways you can do that. But the other thing that I was thinking is you could go to
19:25 Speaker 02 the space where it's gonna be and just like be there and think about it. So like, you're kind of sensorily prepared to be there and to talk about your work.
19:37 John Green? I like that. I just, I'm not looking forward to making these videos, Sarah. That's what this is about. I'm, I'm stealing Raina's question because I don't. There's a lot about the book that I don't want to talk about at all.
19:48 Speaker 02 Yeah.
19:49 John Green? Like, I don't, because I want people to go into it cold.
19:51 Speaker 02 Well, I don't, I don't want to make this about me, but do you remember when I was gonna have a book out? And I was terrified about having to go on tour and talk about the book and have public events?
20:03 John Green? I do remember that. And one thing I remember about it is that at one point, you genuinely said to me, "I hope somehow this book tour just gets canceled."
20:14 Speaker 02 And then the pandemic did. And then, Raina, I couldn't go on the book tour at all. And I didn't have the opportunity to face my fear. Like, on the one hand, I thought I'd manifested the whole pandemic.
20:29 John Green? You did.
20:30 Speaker 02 But on the other hand, I was like, you know what? It would have been better for my personal growth.
20:37 John Green? To face your fear and go on the tour.
20:38 Speaker 02 To face my fear and go on the tour.
20:40 John Green? That's right.
20:41 Speaker 02 So.
20:42 John Green? Yeah. Anyway, the book is called You Are An Artist, and it's still available.
20:46 Speaker 02 Thanks, John.
20:47 John Green? You're welcome.
20:47 Speaker 02 But, Raina, good luck. I'm confident that it will go well and it will, it will end.
20:57 Speaker 02 Okay, next question.
20:58 John Green? That's the most important thing, is that it will end.
21:00 Speaker 02 Yeah. Okay, this question comes from anonymous. Dear Sarah and John, I'm a current sophomore at high school. I'm at this point of the year where I need to start scheduling my classes for next year. And I'm starting to realize how scary the future is and how unprepared I am about everything. I have a big passion for writing and music, but I feel pressure to pursue something more practical and sustainable. My parents are immigrants who came to this country from working hard, but also from pursuing a job that was practical and was not their first dream. A part of me feels guilty and selfish that I can't do the same, but there's part of me that knows I can never let go of music and art. It's just too much of what I am. And I know if I did pursue something else, I would be unhappy and unfulfilled. Please let me know what I should do.
21:45 Speaker 02 Sincerely, Anonymous.
21:47 John Green? So, Anonymous, this is a difficult question, and I think that you're right to feel overwhelmed by it. That's the first thing I'd say. But I also don't want you to create mutually exclusive worlds, where you only pursue music and art, or you only pursue something else. Right? Like, I've pursued a job as a history education YouTuber and a job as a writer. William Carlos Williams was a doctor and he was a poet. He would write poems on the back of his prescription pads. Wallace Stevens sold insurance and he wrote poetry. These things do not have to be mutually exclusive. You know the guy who writes Diary of a Wimpy Kid?
22:33 John Green? He's sold like 100 million books and he never stopped working his day job.
22:37 Speaker 02 Really?
22:37 John Green? Well, I think he stopped now.
22:39 Speaker 02 Okay.
22:39 John Green? But it took him way too long.
22:41 Speaker 02 Right.
22:42 John Green? So, you know, I think that finding ways to make music and art a part of your life and being committed to making them a part of your life sounds like it's really important to you. And hopefully, your parents understand that. Hopefully, they understand why it's really important to you and that it's really important to you. But I also understand, you know, not necessarily wanting to make that your only career option. Now, I think it can absolutely be part of your career or it can be your whole career. But I understand, like, especially when you're in high school, not closing off your options.
23:17 Speaker 02 Right. Like, the writing and music especially are things that you can definitely do while fulfilling your standard credits. You know what I mean?
23:26 John Green? Yeah.
23:26 Speaker 02 Like, and you can use your time after school and on the weekends to pursue the things that you really love while still keeping the doors open for further education.
23:37 John Green? And that's not going to always be true, to be totally honest with you, Anonymous. Like, there is going to come a time when you have to start making real difficult choices. But I'm not sure that
23:46 Speaker 02 You're not there yet.
23:47 John Green? is your junior year in high school.
23:48 Speaker 02 I would also, you know, something I noticed in your letter is that you don't really say that your parents are pressuring you. I wonder how much of this is coming from them or just coming from you. And both are important, but you could also talk to them about it. I mean, this is coming from a parent's perspective.
24:08 John Green? Yeah.
24:08 Speaker 02 But like, you may or may not be surprised about what they say.
24:12 John Green? Yeah, I mean, part of the reason they may have worked so hard to give you educational opportunities is so that you can pursue what you want to pursue.
24:22 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:23 John Green? You don't want to speak for your parents too soon. I was talking to my great friend. I have another podcast, The Away End, with Daniel Alarcon, that we make together. My friend since high school.
24:34 Speaker 02 Available now.
24:36 John Green? Available now, wherever you get your podcasts, if you love soccer.
24:39 Speaker 02 The Away End.
24:40 John Green? There you go. Thank you for the promo, Sarah.
24:42 Speaker 02 Yeah.
24:43 John Green? We're promoing each other today.
24:44 Speaker 02 Uh huh.
24:44 John Green? And he was born in Peru, and his parents immigrated to the United States when he was three or four. And he was telling me that even though, you know, like, he's had a very successful career, and he's published in The New Yorker, and he's won a MacArthur Genius Grant and everything else, that his parents still kind of wished that he was a doctor.
25:01 Speaker 02 Sure, sure.
25:03 John Green? And like, and I mean, that's sort of the cliche, but I don't think that's a universal experience.
25:09 Speaker 02 Well, I also feel like it's important to keep in mind that there may be career paths that seem safer to you now, but our culture, our world, is changing so quickly that, like, the jobs that were considered safe when we were young.
25:26 John Green? Yeah, are not safe.
25:27 Speaker 02 Don't necessarily exist anymore.
25:29 John Green? Right.
25:30 Speaker 02 So, you know, like, I'm a huge proponent of the liberal arts education that teaches you how to think, to research, to express yourself, to communicate, and to adapt.
25:43 John Green? Right.
25:44 Speaker 02 So, like, yes, you can study to be a particular thing, but there are no guarantees that you won't have to retrain yourself to do something totally different.
25:53 John Green? Yeah, and I think music and art both can help you be that sort of creative thinker.
26:00 Speaker 02 Yeah.
26:01 John Green? Be someone who knows how to adapt. I mean, to me, the liberal arts aren't just about teaching you how to think. They're also teaching you what to think about, what's important, what's worth valuing, what we want to prioritize as a species. And, you know, on that front, like... I think the so-called like knowledge work of the future will probably be fairly liberal artsy. I might be wrong. God knows. I have no idea what the future looks like.
26:31 Speaker 02 Even if it's not, even if it's not like really interesting music and art comes and writing is about other things. So like, so like, maybe you pursue biology and end up making music informed by whale sounds or something.
26:51 John Green? Yeah, or our friend Stuart, who's a musician who makes music that transposes the sounds that bats make into sounds that are audible to human ears.
27:00 Speaker 02 And then invites other musicians to accompany the transposed bat music. And like often when you're writing, like, what are you writing about? Like, what is your subject matter? So yeah, pick up something that seems more practical.
27:14 John Green? Or don't, just don't exclude yourself from multiple things. Like, I wrote a book about science, for God's sakes. If you told me that in high school, anonymous, if you told me in high school that I would write a nonfiction book about, about science, about the biology of a disease, I would simply not have believed you.
27:33 Speaker 02 Yes.
27:35 John Green? All right. That reminds me that today's podcast is brought to you by Everything is Tuberculosis, the hit new book available wherever books are sold.
27:41 Speaker 02 The podcast is also brought to you by a liberal arts education, an old idea still relevant.
27:48 John Green? And today's podcast is brought to you by Reyna's Art Project. Reyna's Art Project, all I know about it is that it's in Chile, so check it out.
27:55 Speaker 02 Also, today's podcast is brought to you by performance art, performance art.
28:04 John Green? This episode of Dear Hank and John is brought to you by Quince. I do very much like opening up my closet and finding an item that I know is going to be both comfortable and I'm just gonna look good in it. It's gonna go well with my khakis or my jeans or my third kind of pant. That I have like a pair of orange pants, just things that make getting dressed easier. And that's what Quince does best. Quince focuses on high-quality wardrobe.
28:29 Hank Green? Staples made with premium materials like 100% Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and merino wool, and the styles are timeless, and they're versatile, and they're designed to become dependable pieces that you reach for day after day. This morning, I put on this jacket that I'm currently wearing with just a white t-shirt, and I knew immediately, this is gonna work. I went downstairs, and Catherine was like, "Look at that nice jacket. Where'd that come from?" You know where it came from? It came from Quince. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands, because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman, so you're paying for the quality, not the brand markup. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com.
29:11 Hank Green? Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know that it was Dear Hank and John. It's a good way to support the show. I feel like I should say, it's Q-U-I-N-C-E. I guess it's pretty easy to spell Quince. Quince.com. I feel tempted to make up a tagline for them, but that's not what they want me to do. I shouldn't do that.
29:38 John Green? Dear Hank and John is brought to you by NoCD. So you may know that I've had obsessive-compulsive disorder since I was a kid, but I was only diagnosed as an adult. I lived with intrusive thoughts and the compulsive behaviors I used to manage those intrusive thoughts for many years without treatment. OCD is not just anxiety. If you have those "what-if" intrusive thoughts, and you cannot close the loop on them, and you find yourself in thought spirals, you might have OCD. And it's not the organizing stereotype you've heard. It's a persistent, unwanted series of intrusive thoughts that feel totally out of character, along with mental or physical behaviors that you feel driven to to get relief, even when that relief never actually comes.
30:21 John Green? The good news is that OCD is highly treatable with the right kind of specialized therapy. It needs ERP, Exposure and Response Prevention Therapy, which has proven to be the most effective treatment, and it has transformed my life. NoCD is the world's leading provider of OCD treatment, covered by insurance for over 138 million Americans. There are licensed therapists who specialize in ERP therapy, who meet you in live face-to-face virtual sessions with support between sessions, so you're never facing OCD alone. So if you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at nocd.com. That's nocd.com.
31:04 Speaker 02 Okay, our next question comes from Josh. Dear John and Sarah, I have discovered that I enjoy and kind of rely on receiving attention and praise.
31:13 John Green? Oh, you and me both, Josh. You and me both.
31:15 Speaker 02 For instance, I always make art as though it will go in front of an audience, even when it definitely won't. Anyway, while I am good at many things, none of those are the type that would get some kind of widespread attention or praise. So how should I come to terms with this? Is there better advice than the usual vague, "learn to feel internally satisfied"? Not too posh, Josh.
31:39 John Green? So I used to think that the reason we made art was entirely for the audience, that like art existed to be consumed and to be shared. And the point of the creator of the art was just to subsume themselves as much as possible to the work itself, because the work is all that mattered. And lately, especially in the last couple of years, as I've been working on this new project, I have felt like, oh, no, like, art is fun. Art is something we make because it's fun and it's interesting and it's internally rewarding. And like, developing that sense of internal reward is not easy.
32:24 John Green? And so when people say, "learn to feel internally satisfied", Josh, I understand that that feels like both vague and unhelpful. But like, working toward that goal as a creator is, I think, valuable.
32:36 Speaker 02 Well, I think you also have to figure out those things that are fun in themselves. Like, some things might not be fun in the making, but are fun to receive praise about.
32:50 John Green? They're fun in the having made.
32:51 Speaker 02 It doesn't mean it's not worth doing, but like, I think there's a balance in your life of things that you do, that you truly enjoy doing, regardless of praise. But I will say, like, you enjoy writing, but you also publish. So I kind of want to call you there, because you do have an audience.
33:12 John Green? Yeah, I do, and I'm really lucky to, and I understand that. But, and I don't know anyone, Josh, who doesn't want outside affirmation.
33:21 Speaker 02 That's true.
33:21 John Green? All humans want to be, as the great film Penguins of Madagascar put it, valued members of the group. We all want to be, just like Private does in Penguins of Madagascar, a valued member of the team.
33:38 Speaker 02 Right. So I will, I'm curious how old Josh is.
33:42 John Green? I'm guessing mid twenties.
33:45 Speaker 02 Because this is, like, the way that school is set up for most people, it gives you many opportunities, if not for praise, for evaluation.
33:55 John Green? Yeah, yeah.
33:57 Speaker 02 And I remember, for me, as somebody who really loved checking boxes and getting good grades, that there was a big falloff after school.
34:07 John Green? Right.
34:08 Speaker 02 Where, you know, I didn't have that anymore. But then I did go into a field where, like, I was putting out art shows, or like, making things, and like, I do think that if you know this about yourself, Josh, you may use that to direct your activities a little bit.
34:25 John Green? Right.
34:25 Speaker 02 To know that you need validation. It's not all evil.
34:29 John Green? Yeah, there's nothing inherently evil about needing validation. And you say, very summarily, that the kind of work you do will never receive any praise, but I'm not sure that's necessarily true.
34:40 Speaker 02 Right.
34:41 John Green? Lots of, you might be surprised if you put yourself out there and continue to work. The other thing that I would say is that, you're right, Sarah, that I enjoy, and I think most people enjoy having written more than they enjoy writing. To borrow a line from, I think, Susan Sontag. But it's also true that people enjoy getting better at stuff. We enjoy improving and learning and figuring things out and developing new tools and strategies for creating art.
35:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
35:11 John Green? And there's fulfillment in that. And I think that's part of what we mean when we say like, be internally satisfied. Is like, find pleasure in getting better or figuring out new strategies or moving forward through a practice.
35:24 Speaker 02 Well, and that's why I really enjoyed learning how to wheel throw pottery.
35:30 John Green? Yeah.
35:31 Speaker 02 Because I was so, it's hard.
35:33 John Green? Right.
35:33 Speaker 02 And I was so bad at it, but like, it was a good exercise in learning to feel internally satisfied because there was nothing else.
35:43 John Green? Right.
35:45 Speaker 02 And sure, like, yes, it's great when you start to get better. You make a cup and somebody likes the cup. You make a cup that you can actually use. You can give somebody a bowl. I think that knowing that you want some praise and validation is powerful information that you can use. And it doesn't have to be for your career necessarily. It can be in your personal life.
36:07 John Green? Right.
36:08 Speaker 02 You can start making your friends dinner every Thursday night and inviting them over. And I guarantee you, praise.
36:16 John Green? Yeah. And you can play your own music in the background and maybe they'll be like, oh, it's pretty good music.
36:21 Speaker 02 Don't do that.
36:22 John Green? That's mine. That's me.
36:23 Speaker 02 Don't do that.
36:25 John Green? All right, we got another question from Kate, who writes, Dear John and Sarah, how does a person get real art? The kind that makes you think and gives happy home feelings, not the kind that yells that you shop at IKEA. Kate, this is a, we get questions like this all the time, and this is a huge problem. This is a huge problem for people. Like, how do you get art that doesn't cost thousands of dollars, that you want to display in your home, that is unique and personal and like, feels like a human being made it?
36:54 Speaker 02 Okay, I have kind of a controversial answer here.
36:57 John Green? Okay, I have an answer that I don't think is controversial. So give me your controversial answer.
37:01 Speaker 02 You gotta get out of the house. Like, yes, you can buy a lot of great art online. But if you want art that you have a personal connection with.
37:11 John Green? Yeah.
37:12 Speaker 02 Um.
37:12 John Green? You gotta get out of the house.
37:13 Speaker 02 You gotta get out of the house. You gotta go look around. You gotta go to that art fair. You gotta go to the student art show at your local school.
37:20 John Green? That's what I was gonna say. Student art shows at local colleges.
37:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
37:25 John Green? Have so much good art.
37:27 Speaker 02 Or wherever you are. You can find good art online, but it's just developing that connection to it.
37:36 John Green? Yeah, it's harder. I mean, you can find it online, but it's harder. There are a lot of great artists who don't show their work at galleries, who only show their work on Instagram. And that's how they get discovered.
37:47 Speaker 02 Yes.
37:47 John Green? I don't want to take anything away from them. But I personally, and maybe this is a thing where Sarah and I are middle aged, but like, I personally just find it harder to connect with art on a screen than I do with connecting with art in person, especially if I can meet the artist and know something about them and their work process.
38:03 Speaker 02 Definitely. But that often for me comes where I start following artists online, then maybe once a year they'll have a sale.
38:13 John Green? Yeah.
38:14 Speaker 02 Um, and then you jump on that opportunity. The inconvenient truth here is that it kind of has to be a side gig for you. It has to be a hobby.
38:25 John Green? Right.
38:25 Speaker 02 You have to like, start looking out for it. You know what you could do? You could go to an antique market, an antique store, or a thrift shop and look for handmade things there. I know when you go to thrift shops, there's a lot of Ikea art in there sometimes.
38:40 John Green? Yeah.
38:40 Speaker 02 But, you know, you just, you have to try a little bit. And the thing is, like, when you put art in your home, it's also a record of how you got it.
38:50 John Green? Right. Part of the story is when and where you bought it. Like, we have this painting of what the night, I'm looking at it right now, of what the night sky will look like on January 1st, 2100. Looking out over Lake Michigan from the city of Chicago. And of course, I will not live to see this night sky barring some real impressive advances in longevity science. But I still get to see it in this painting and like it makes me so happy and it wasn't very expensive. It's just got a good story to it. And when I look at it, I think about the story of how we first saw it and where we were and the fact that we were together.
39:25 Speaker 02 Right.
39:26 John Green? I think about lots of things other than just the night sky in Chicago in the year 2100.
39:30 Speaker 02 Another thing is that like I I knew somebody once who had a collection of paintings of poorly painted hands.
39:39 John Green? Yeah.
39:39 Speaker 02 Hands are notoriously difficult.
39:41 John Green? Very hard to paint.
39:42 Speaker 02 To render realistically for less experienced artists. So like they sort of made a habit of every time they'd go into a thrift store or an antique mall or something like that, they'd look for badly drawn hands. You know, you don't, obviously you can do trees. So like even if it's not an amazing artwork in itself, if you have a collection of paintings of barns or something, maybe it's cool together.
40:09 John Green? It starts to look cool together.
40:11 Speaker 02 Yeah.
40:11 John Green? I think Sarah is right. I almost just called you Alice.
40:14 Speaker 02 Oh, my gosh.
40:15 John Green? I think Sarah is right that you have to make it a side hustle, but it's a really fun side hustle and you don't need to be spending thousands of dollars to get cool art.
40:23 Speaker 02 No.
40:24 John Green? So I think it's a fun side hustle. All right, before we get to the all important news section of the podcast, Sarah, we need to read this question from Natalie. Natalie is Swedish, which no bragging, Natalie.
40:34 Speaker 02 I know, I'm jealous.
40:35 John Green? Natalie says, Dear John and Sarah, I'm a new mother of a five month old and I'm desperately in need of help getting out of a creative rut. Oh, boy, I mean, you are in the thick of it, Natalie, the thick of it. While I know I have to have grace with myself for raising a new little human, you do. As someone who's had a thriving art practice for nearly 20 years, not creating feels deeply unfamiliar. We live in Sweden, so I am fortunate to have a lengthy parental leave. Natalie, I said earlier, no bragging. And I want to use this time to mark this transformative period. Creating has always been integral to my identity, but my art making has declined dramatically over the last year. Now I feel ready to create again, but unsure where to start, especially since my preferred medium, oil paint, isn't very baby friendly.
41:18 Speaker 02 Yeah.
41:19 John Green? As lifelong creatives, how do you pull yourselves out of a rut and return to your practice? And how did you balance creativity and parenting when you were new parents? Any advice is greatly appreciated. Taksas Janmat Meket.
41:31 Speaker 02 Oh, boy.
41:31 John Green? Pumpkins and Penguins, Natalie. I did a great job pronouncing Swedish as usual.
41:36 Speaker 02 I'm so sorry about that. This is a really great question. And, you know, I think as an artist, you're familiar with the power and potential of constraints.
41:49 John Green? Hmm.
41:50 Speaker 02 Because you've got some real constraints now on your time, mainly on your sleep, on your bandwidth. And, you know, I know for me, during my first maternity leave, I had to write an essay for an exhibition catalog.
42:10 John Green? Yeah, back at Warhol.
42:11 Speaker 02 God, that was, it was due, I think, like, the day after I got back from maternity leave, and I just could not freaking do it. I would go, I would, like, clear time, I would be like, okay, John, I need six hours at a coffee shop, you know? And I would get there and I would sort of space out for the first hour.
42:33 John Green? Yeah. Because it's so hard.
42:37 Speaker 02 I would, I would, like, arrange the quotes that I was gonna use for the next hour.
42:43 John Green? Right.
42:43 Speaker 02 Like, it was so hard to do the thing that wasn't hard for me before. And it wasn't, I mean, it wasn't sort of making art, it was something else, but it was something that I didn't have trouble doing before that I did then. And, you know, like, I wrote it, what I actually ended up doing is I wrote a terrible essay, had my mentor read it. She told me kindly that it was terrible, and I had to, like... Claw my way to a better piece. I haven't reread it. I don't really want to.
43:15 John Green? I haven't read it in a while either.
43:16 Speaker 02 Yeah. So, you know, I, I found my way through it and I did it. But like, I think if you have the flexibility to adapt in this moment, to change your work, to like, do a kind of parallel practice of something else, something that doesn't take maybe as long to set up and get going as oil painting. Maybe you try watercolors, you know, like maybe you try collage. Maybe you just do something totally different that maybe you've been curious about for a while. That kind of gives you permission to explore a new path.
43:57 Speaker 02 Cause you, you, you know what you, what your bandwidth is. You know that it's limited. And I think it's a great opportunity. And then like, whatever you do, maybe it will inform it when you go back to oil painting, or maybe, maybe it won't.
44:12 John Green? Yeah. The other thing I'd say is just don't put pressure on yourself to do anything all at once. Because it's so hard to be raising.
44:20 Speaker 02 What do you call it once?
44:21 John Green? Well, like, like turn creativity back on like a light switch.
44:25 Speaker 02 Right.
44:25 John Green? You know, it's much more of a spectrum than it is a dichotomy.
44:29 Speaker 02 Right.
44:29 John Green? And so your creative production doesn't have to go back to what it was before you had a baby right away. I know mine didn't, you know? I mean, I went from publishing a book every two years to publishing a book every five years. And there were a lot of reasons for that, but parenthood was an important one. And I have no regrets about that because like, what a fascinating experience parenthood was. And I think it enriched, I mean, aside from the fact that I love my kids, I also think it enriched my work. I think it enriched your work. And so I, I, I think you need to think of moving on the spectrum back toward creative production, rather than thinking of it as a, as a switch you flip to become creative.
45:09 Speaker 02 And maybe this is a season where when you do have time, you're thinking about inputs rather than outputs. Like maybe, maybe you go see some art instead of make art. Maybe you take walks. Maybe you listen to something. Maybe it's not so much about like getting back to generating work as it is doing whatever you need to help you. Get back to a place where you are genuinely inspired to make stuff.
45:40 John Green? All right, Sarah, it's time for the all important news section of the podcast.
45:43 Speaker 02 Oh, news. Uh oh.
45:45 John Green? I'm going to share some news from AFC Wimbledon and then you'll share some of your own news. I don't know what kind of news you're going to share, but the news from AFC Wimbledon is twofold. Everyone knows that the AFC Wimbledon men's team has had a surprisingly good season in the third tier of English football.
45:58 Speaker 02 Can I summarize it?
45:59 John Green? Yeah.
46:00 Speaker 02 Okay, it started out great.
46:01 John Green? Yeah.
46:02 Speaker 02 It got really bad.
46:02 John Green? Real bad.
46:03 Speaker 02 Now it's better.
46:04 John Green? Now it's better again. That's exactly the perfect summary. It was amazing. It was terrible.
46:09 Speaker 02 But we're not totally safe yet.
46:10 John Green? And it's pretty good now. But the women's team has had a really difficult season in the third tier of English soccer as well. Flirting with relegation all season, but in one of the knockout cup competitions, they've just beaten Brentford, a Premier League side on the men's side, very well funded side. They beat Brentford 4-3 and have made their way to the semifinals of the Capital Cup, which is a cup involving all the teams that play in London. So the women's team, despite real hardships in the league, have been making big strides in the cup competition, which is awesome to see. So that's the news from Wimbledon. What's your news?
46:45 Speaker 02 Well, I decided I definitely am not qualified to share news from Mars.
46:50 John Green? Me neither.
46:50 Speaker 02 But I thought I might share some art market news.
46:53 John Green? Oh, okay. Give me the art market news.
46:55 Speaker 02 So the last two years in the art market have been bad. Like, there's been a big decline, okay?
47:01 John Green? I feel like people are always spending millions of dollars.
47:04 Speaker 02 Oh, they are. Oh, they are. They are.
47:06 John Green? Fewer people.
47:07 Speaker 02 Yeah, but the, I guess, good news is that global art sales did grow in 2025.
47:13 John Green? Okay.
47:14 Speaker 02 There had been two years of decline, but we've grown modestly. People are still pretty uncertain about the economy because of the global situation. But interestingly, so it's still quite high, $59.6 billion.
47:31 John Green? Billion.
47:32 Speaker 02 Billion.
47:32 John Green? With a B.
47:33 Speaker 02 With a B. A lot of people invest in art. It's wild. But that's not the all time peak. Okay. The all time peak. Guess what year?
47:41 John Green? 2019.
47:42 Speaker 02 2014.
47:44 John Green? Oh, really?
47:46 Speaker 02 Yes. Interesting.
47:47 John Green? I would have thought it would be right before the pandemic.
47:48 Speaker 02 Um, the big ticket transactions in the world of art auction sales last year. Do you know who made the biggest selling artwork?
48:00 John Green? I'm going to guess Gustav Klimt.
48:02 Speaker 02 Oh, you saw it.
48:03 John Green? I didn't.
48:04 Speaker 02 Oh, you got it.
48:05 John Green? No.
48:05 Speaker 02 Yeah. Klimt portrait.
48:07 John Green? Rich people love Klimt.
48:09 Speaker 02 Yeah. Well, it's gold.
48:11 John Green? I know. They love gold.
48:14 Speaker 02 Rich people love gold.
48:15 John Green? Yeah.
48:16 Speaker 02 Okay. So that Klimt painting from 1916 sold for $236 million.
48:22 John Green? That is unreasonable.
48:24 Speaker 02 Yeah.
48:24 John Green? No one, respectfully, I don't want to disrespect your work, but no one should spend that much money on a work of art.
48:30 Speaker 02 I know. I know. And art dealers had a slightly improved business.
48:36 John Green? Okay.
48:37 Speaker 02 The middle of the art market, like the middle tier galleries, they did not experience any growth. But the lower end and the higher end had a, had a bit of an upset.
48:47 John Green? It's good that the lower end is growing.
48:48 Speaker 02 So I, you know, I thought I'd share this news that is relevant, not to me, nor to you.
48:54 John Green? Not really.
48:54 Speaker 02 Nor to almost all people in the world.
48:59 John Green? But if there is one listener who found themselves thinking, oh, God, I had $237 million to spend on a Klimt painting. Reach out because have we got a hospital in Sierra Leone that you can fund?
49:11 Speaker 02 We sure do. And sometimes I like thinking about the art world, or not the art world. Because the art, the art market is in the news a lot.
49:21 John Green? But it's not the art world.
49:22 Speaker 02 But it is not the art world.
49:23 John Green? No.
49:24 Speaker 02 It is not. It does have some trickle down effect, but it's, but it's very modest. And it's mostly just rich people trading stuff, moving the pile of money around.
49:32 John Green? Yeah. Well, on that note, thank you so much, Sarah, for co-hosting this episode of Dear Sarah and John. It's been an absolute joy to spend this hour with you. Dear Hank and John is edited by Bridget Kennison. We're mixed by Andrew Smith. Our marketing specialist is Brooke Shotwell. We're produced by Rosiana Hosrohos and Hannah West. Our executive producer is Seth Radley. The editorial assistant is Deboki Chakravarti. And the music you're hearing now and at the beginning of the podcast is by the great Gunarola, as they say in our hometown. Don't forget to be awesome.
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