Michael Ovitz, Co-founder of CAA

Michael Ovitz⁠ is the co-founder of Creative Artists Agency (CAA), one of the most powerful and influential talent agencies in Hollywood history, built on a revolutionary approach to representation that fundamentally transformed the entertainment industry. He is an entertainment executive and dealmaker widely regarded as one of the most formidable operators in Hollywood. During his time leading CAA, Ovitz represented virtually every major star, including Tom Cruise, Robert De Niro, Meryl Streep, Steven Spielberg, David Letterman, Barbra Streisand and many more. Starting as a mailroom trainee in the 1960s and reshaping the power dynamics of the entire industry by the 1980s, he became known for his relentless strategic thinking, his creation of the "packaging" model that bundled talent for studios, and his ability to orchestrate deals of unprecedented scale and complexity. He built a reputation in entertainment circles through his fierce intelligence, relentless work ethic and his ability to build CAA into what many called "the most powerful company in Hollywood." His major accomplishments include co-founding CAA in 1975 in an audacious break from the establishment, pioneering the packaging system that gave agents unprecedented leverage over studios, orchestrating landmark deals including the sale of Columbia Pictures to Sony, serving as President of The Walt Disney Company and building CAA into a multi-billion dollar enterprise that expanded far beyond traditional talent representation into sports, consulting and global entertainment infrastructure. This is Michael's second time on the podcast. Watch the first episode. Show notes: https://www.davidsenra.com/episode/michael-ovitz-2 Made possible by Ramp: https://ramp.com Deel: https://deel.com/senra AppLovin: https://applovin.com/senra Chapters (00:00:00) Why Michael Ovitz Is Busier Than Ever (00:04:27) Why This Era Is More Exciting Than Hollywood's Golden Age (00:08:45) The Fundamentals of Building Enduring Businesses (00:12:06) How Ovitz Chooses What Deserves His Time (00:14:28) Why Ovitz Refuses to Be Typecast (00:19:43) Japan, Trust & Playing the Long Game (00:20:44) Phil Knight, Nike & the College Football Playoff (00:25:59) Competition, Work Ethic & Winning Without Ego (00:31:33) How Ovitz Outworked 200 Rival Agencies (00:37:51) Protecting the Vision: Scorsese, Rain Man & Great Founders (00:40:37) Josh Kushner & Guarding the Company's Soul (00:43:47) Steve Jobs, Pixar & Building a Culture of Ideas (00:47:20) "He Won, We Lost. Next Case." (00:49:21) Bill Ackman, Universal Music Group & the Future of Music (00:53:08) AI, Music & the Future of Entertainment (00:59:13) Jurassic Park, Spielberg & Using New Technology Well (01:01:10) Why Great Creators Study the Past Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02David Senra?

  It's good to see you again. Thanks for doing this again.

• 0:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I haven't seen you since yesterday.

• 0:06David Senra?

  Well, we'll start there. Why did you tell me yesterday that you're busier today at this point in your life than you've ever been?

• 0:13Speaker 01

  Great question, as I said to you yesterday. And you know I'm busy because you saw. You got to look at it. And first of all, let me apologize for being horrible company to you.

• 0:27David Senra?

  You weren't. It was amazing. We had, I guess we should tell the people watching and listening to this that I flew back from New York to LA with you on your plane. And you had texted me the night before, you're like, just a warning, I'm going to be horrible company because I'm going to work all the way through. And so what you did, we sat next to each other and you essentially, before we took off, started working, we flew, landed, and then you were still working, you're like, hey, I'm not getting off the plane in case you want to leave.

• 0:50Speaker 01

  I was on a Zoom.

• 0:51David Senra?

  Yeah, exactly. No, it was awesome. You weren't horrible company at all.

• 0:54Speaker 01

  No, I said to you, I enjoy it, which is the problem. It's like the ultimate stimulus response.

• 1:02David Senra?

  Why is the fact that you love working a problem?

• 1:04Speaker 01

  Well, it's not a problem for me. I think it's a problem for people that I'm close to that would like me to work less. I don't agree with that. And I am busier than I've ever been in my life. I actually said that tomorrow the other night, would probably like me to work a little bit less. It's the most exciting time I've ever seen in my entire life. And that includes the entertainment sweet spot of the late 70s through the end of the 90s, which was the last great period in the film business and television business,

• 1:45Speaker 01

  pre-streaming, obviously. I thought I was in heaven in those years with respect to the amount of things that could be created out of thin air. Today, and for the last, I started in 92, working in technology while I was still at CIA. It's now 26. I'm still doing it. I can't wait to get up in the morning. I literally can't wait. I am privileged to be able to work with some of the smartest men and women I've ever met in my life. They're

• 2:22Speaker 01

  all young. They are all out to do something special. They're motivated by all the right things. And every day, when I'm in a meeting with these people, I learn something. So I get discovery, I get education, I get my brain stretched, I get to watch things like I've always watched creatively, created out of thin air. I get to listen to the presentation, get challenged about whether I should get involved or not. And I do everything I can

• 3:05Speaker 01

  to spread myself around enough so I can get all the food for thought that's possible. Because that drives me. It's that discovery process that drives me. And it's not a FOMO process, frankly. It's very interesting in technology. I was talking to Ben Horowitz about this. It's a learning curve that gives you a stimulation that you have seen, heard, and heard something that you didn't know. But that stimulation then turns into a form of joy that you've made yourself a better person off of someone else's knowledge base.

• 3:49Speaker 01

  And I said the other day to one of my young mentees, I said, consider me Dracula for the brain. And, you know, the original Dracula, the conceit of the story, the book, forget there was no movie in those days. The book was this constant quest for eternal youth. And, you know, you suck a young person's blood and it makes you young. I like to view myself as in the same way, except in the gray matter area. I'm really interested in what the thought process is.

• 4:26David Senra?

  Why do you think today is more exciting for you than even the 70s, 80s, and 90s?

• 4:32Speaker 01

  Because in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, we were dealing with mediums that had been around for a long time. The exciting part was the creation of the software of the moment, which was film, or videotape, or music, or books. It was fantastic to read Michael Crichton's Rough Draft of Jurassic Park. It was a thrill. But it was a book, and there have been books since the invention of the printing press, actually, since prior, because they're handwritten.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  But now, change is so dramatic that it's almost frightening. Max Levchin, who was the founder of a firm and PayPal, and I think you know Max.

• 5:22David Senra?

  I know of him. I've never met him.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  I thought you should have him do the show. He's brilliant and a great guy. He said to me, a couple of years ago, we were at a dinner, and he said, you know, if I take a day off from work, I come back and I feel like I've missed a week. And then I saw him recently at the Allen Conference, and he said, if I reminded him of him, and he said, if I take a day off now, I feel like I've missed three months. And everyone thinks that way. AI is so fast. And as far as the speed of change, that the benefits are to anything

• 6:04Speaker 01

  that we do is extraordinary. Now, there's a ton of potential downside, and I like to not forget that. I think we have to be very responsible with it. On the other hand, I feel the upside far outweighs the downside. I was at a dinner with a friend of mine who's a research scientist, working on cancer cures. And I said, how's the five trials going? He said, I can't believe what's happened. And I said, what? And as you know, to set

• 6:42Speaker 01

  the stage, it takes a long time to get from stage one, which are mice or other types of animals, to stage three, which are human trials. It could be five, it could be 10 years sometimes. He said, I have five trials going. Four were started pre-AI. They're from five to 10 years in the making. I started one after, post-AI, and I've gotten results in nine months on a cancer cure. Think about the ramification of that and what it means for our society. I was in a meeting last week in New York, and two young engineers

• 7:27Speaker 01

  told me they had discovered a friend of theirs is working all because of AI on a cure to stimulate the retinal nerve if your vision is going bad. I mean, it's every day. It's every day, something different. And here's the real answer to your question. We all had to be specialists until AI. Now, we're all generalists. So I get to work in consumer products, in high tech, in defense, in medicine, in biopharma. I get to be involved in all

• 8:08Speaker 01

  these things that I'm totally unqualified for. I don't code. I'm not a scientist that can sit and understand the vocabulary of science. But I can learn about it really fast and have enough vocabulary to understand what these brilliant young minds are creating. So this creativity is the same as the entertainment creativity, but at a wildly different degree of difficulty and level up. It's not even close.

• 8:44David Senra?

  So what is the role that you're playing in the projects that you're pursuing right now?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  I will basically do whatever is needed to help form these businesses. And the reality of business, which very few people really grasp, is that the basics of business, no matter what the field is, are exactly the same. The blocking and tackling parts are the same. So as pointed out to me, a film, or a television show, or a book, or a song, is packaged around talent. Talent, creator, engineer, same thing. Talent needs someone

• 9:33Speaker 01

  to help execute. Engineer needs people around them to help get the business in line and organized, coded, whatever they need done.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  The creative person making the entertainment then has to get financing. The engineer or founder of a company needs venture capital. With the entertainment maker, he then has to get distribution. Founder has his product, he's got to find a DSP or someone else to distribute his work, or just take it on his own on the internet. Either way, both also need marketing. How do you put the name into the ether? And then how do you sell the product? How do you make a profit? How do you build a culture? How do you build something that lasts beyond you? We started CA in 1974.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  In 2026, it's as strong today as it was when I was there. Because we set a business model in place that has stood the test of time. And the guys that took it over followed the trajectory of where they needed to take the business and kept the same values and principles. And at the end of the day, it's binary. It either works or it doesn't. 50 years in business proves that it works.

• 11:00David Senra?

  I want to tell you about the presenting sponsor of this podcast, Ramp. I have been reading a lot about SpaceX lately. SpaceX is one of the most valuable businesses in the world. And one of the main themes in the history of SpaceX is constantly attacking and questioning your costs. Ramp helps many of the most innovative businesses in the world do exactly that. The median company running on Ramp cuts their expenses by 5%. And one thing SpaceX has demonstrated is that a religious dedication to controlling costs can help actually increase revenue because you can pursue opportunities you couldn't otherwise. And we see that in the Ramp data, too. The median company running on Ramp also grows their revenue by 16%. So when you're running your business on Ramp and your competitors are not, you have

• 11:44David Senra?

  a massive competitive advantage that compounds over time. Ramp is the only platform designed to make your finance team faster and happier. Many of the top founders and CEOs I know run their business on Ramp. I run my business on Ramp, and you should, too. Go to ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time, save money, and grow revenue. That is ramp.com. So let's go back to, you have a million different things you could work on. You have very limited time. You're ruthlessly efficient, which is what I saw on the plane yesterday. And I kind of guessed from our multiple conversations. So how do you choose which projects to do right now? And like, how are you going to spend your time?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Choices are made for me. I don't have to make the choice.

• 12:26David Senra?

  What does that mean?

• 12:27Speaker 01

  It means that the degree of interest is proportional to the individual that's telling me about it, whether it's an investor, a founder, shareholder, venture capitalist.

• 12:42David Senra?

  So you're just saying you just follow your intense curiosity? What do you mean by that?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Well, I follow my curiosity. I want to see everything. I can't do everything.

• 12:50David Senra?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  And also, there's a lot of things I don't want to do. There's a lot of ideas that don't interest me. But I like meeting the people. That's what I like. As you know, I collect art and people. I love art and I love to meet smart people. And that drives me. But the choices almost, David, get made by themselves. Is it interesting? Will it stand the test of time? Can it be built? Can it be financed? Can it be distributed? All the basics of business have to be overlaid on any of these ideas.

• 13:26David Senra?

  So do you consider yourself more like an investor, a partner? Like, how do you think about yourself when you're working on projects?

• 13:33Speaker 01

  I work overtime to not be categorized. I don't want to label.

• 13:37David Senra?

  All right, you got to say more about that.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  I'm glad you're laughing at me, David. And I'm glad you feel comfortable that you could laugh at me.

• 13:44David Senra?

  I'm not laughing at you. You're just, I love the stuff, the way you say it.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  David, if I was younger, I'd leap out of my seat and throttle it.

• 13:49David Senra?

  I have no doubt of that.

• 13:52Speaker 01

  But I'm too old.

• 13:53David Senra?

  No, you might be able to throttle me. I'm going to, we're going to come back to this line of questioning. But you came up to the house just now, and you're like, hey, sorry again for being, you know, horrible company yesterday. I go, bullshit, Michael. I go, you were an excellent example of the fact that, you know, you're maybe 35 years older than I am. And I was actually inspired by how efficient and how relentless you are with your work ethic. I was like, oh, I thought I was working hard. Like, I should be, this guy should not be outworking me.

• 14:19Speaker 01

  As I said to you, I love working. I love learning. I love working.

• 14:24David Senra?

  I love you, so of course, would not be laughing at you. What do you mean you don't want to be categorized?

• 14:28Speaker 01

  I don't want to be typecast. And I said this to a young founder yesterday. When I grew up in the business world, we were basically specialists. So if you were in the entertainment business, you chose a vocation. In film, there were subdivisions of film. There was animation. There were documentaries. There were long, there were action pictures. There were comedies. You did one of those things, or you did television, or you wrote books, or you were a producer, or you were a director. You had one vocation in a larger field. Today, there's no such thing.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  Today, you have to be a generalist. You have to know a little bit about everything. And then, unless you're a deep scientist and you're founding Palantir, or Anthropic, or one of these businesses that require extraordinary brain compute power, then you are a specialist. But in the world I live in, I want to be a generalist. I'm not capable of being a specialist.

• 15:42David Senra?

  How much of this is tied to the advancements that we've seen in AI?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  None.

• 15:46David Senra?

  Okay, so this was your...

• 15:48Speaker 01

  I've been like this my whole life.

• 15:49David Senra?

  But then, people like you are now, almost have superpowers and even more additional leverage because of AI. Is that the way you look at it?

• 15:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, I have it sitting on my phone. It's insane how many times I go to my phone and go to Claude, or OpenAI, or Google to get answers on things and get a deep dive in a nanosecond. I was looking at my grandson, who's 10 years old, and he's going to school at a special school in New York called the Alpha School, which is...

• 16:20David Senra?

  Oh, Joe Lamont?

• 16:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:22David Senra?

  I just spent a bunch of time with Joe, too.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  I have unbelievable respect for that man, that he's doing what he's doing. My grandson, my oldest son's first son, Chris's son, you know Chris, is 10 years old. He's been in that school since last September, and in six months, he's a different kid. He can't wait to go to school. Don't have to ask him to do his homework. He is given unbelievable responsibilities. This is all set up by using AI to teach them. They do two hours a day of hard study off an iPad. And he's as fluent now in knowledge as he's ever been, and he's 10.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  When I got called to fly to Hawaii to meet with the senior C-suite executives from Matsushita Electric, one of the largest companies in Japan, that at the time had $15 billion to $20 billion of liquidity on their balance sheet, unheard of in the late 80s. I had to figure out how to learn about the company. I had to go to a stockbroker's office. I had to go to the library. I had to use all analog tools.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  I had to get a physical copy of their 10K. Today, doing the same kind of work, as you know, I'm in the middle of two transactions right now, which are public. I mean, one's public, one's not. I went down a rabbit hole on three AI platforms. I spent six, seven hours, two different days. I was, I had so much information that I needed to add to my instinctual information because I'd been around that business so long.

• 18:26David Senra?

  Which would have taken you in the 80s, at the time you're going to Hawaii, how long?

• 18:30Speaker 01

  I needed four weeks to prep for the meeting in Hawaii. I put it off for four weeks. I put it off for two reasons. One, culturally, when asked in those days, and I'm not talking about today, but by traditional Japanese executives, your response has to be slow and measured. As a matter of fact, I got asked for a meeting by a Japanese company and spent three weeks putting them off. And that kind of works for them. It's their culture. They're very slow to trust. As a matter of fact, I used to crack up when, in the early 80s, I was going to Japan once

• 19:11Speaker 01

  a month for business, and friends of mine were going, and they'd come back, and they'd call me, and they'd say, my God, I just had the greatest meeting in Japan. I'm going to close. And I'd start laughing, and they would say, what are you laughing at? And I'd say, well, call me in a year and let me know how you're doing. None of them closed anything. I spent a year cultivating relationships before I even got an assignment. But the amount of time it took me to learn about those individual companies.

• 19:39David Senra?

  You spent a year cultivating relationships before you even got an assignment?

• 19:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:44David Senra?

  What made you take an interest in Japan?

• 19:45Speaker 01

  I've always been interested in Asia, always. I'm interested in Japan and China, have been since I started an interest in Japan in high school because I had a lot of Japanese-American friends. And when I would go to their homes for dinner, I was blown away by the difference culturally. I remember, this is...

• 20:16Speaker 01

  Fifty years ago, so you had a different ethos at the time and a different feeling about.

• 20:25David Senra?

  Between the Japanese and American relations post-World War II?

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:28David Senra?

  Correct?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:28David Senra?

  Okay. You read Phil Knight's book Shoe Dog?

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:31David Senra?

  Same thing. His idea was like, hey, we're gonna sell, we're gonna try to disrupt the German athletic shoes with Japanese, they're Japanese competitors. And he got a lot of pushback because of the essentially tension between America and Japan at the time.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  You know, I had a joint venture with Phil. I'm crazy about him.

• 20:47David Senra?

  Did you? I didn't know this.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I did when I was at CA. We had Nike and CA had a joint venture. Matter of fact, Phil Knight and I had one of the greatest experiences in my business career. The two of us decided that there should be a NCAA college football playoff. I remember this is 40 years ago. So we met up at his place in Beaverton and we plotted out this whole strategy. And we put an entire visual and written presentation together. And I was fortunate because I was very close to the chancellor of UCLA because I was chairman of the UCLA Medical Center.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  And his name was Chuck Young. He passed away recently. Great guy. And he was very influential in the college president world. And I convinced him to get Phil and I an audience at their meeting in Kansas City. And here's a guy who's running Nike and with, I mean, running it. And here's a guy who's running a very successful entertainment business. And we did an amazing video that showed all of our stars and all of the athletes that were under contract to Nike. And we were on a stage in front of 150 NCAA presidents.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  And we showed that we could have made all the schools at the time, millions of dollars of revenue, if we just did a playoff rather than chose bowl games with random people. We rehearsed what we were gonna do. We had a fantastic dual presentation. We ran our video. We both got up to the rostrum on each side of the screen. That's how we decided to start to present. And we started pitching. And we're both not bad at that, the two of us. And he's particularly good. And we look at each other and we realize no one's listening to us.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  They're like having conversations. You know, they're at round tables instead of chairs. And then we ran another video and then I walked over to him and I said, this is not going well. We gotta start to wing it. And we did. And we left. And they ultimately said they didn't want to do it. They told us they wanted to commission a report, which they did. It ran about 500 pages. And the conclusion they came to was exactly what we told them. And now, 30 years later, they decided to do it. So the amount of money they left on the table was frightening. We both learned a really good lesson from that, so.

• 23:42David Senra?

  How competitive is Phil Knight?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  Phil Knight is the most competitive businessman alive and bar none. I'm crazy about that guy. I have such respect for him. He took a standard item, these shoes, and he changed the world with them. If you go back to the beginning, when he did Tiger, which was a Japanese shoe, that's where he started, when he and Penny, his wife, were selling these things out of the trunk of their car.

• 24:15David Senra?

  Yeah.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  The soles were flat and they weren't really comfortable. They were made for running because of his track code, Bill Bowerman.

• 24:24David Senra?

  And his co-founder, yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. But all of a sudden, they get cushier, the heels get higher, they're in colors. I love going online and doing the customization thing. I just think it's the most fun thing imaginable.

• 24:40David Senra?

  The reason I ask is because out of all the people I've read for my other podcast founders, the most ruthlessly competitive, I'd say like Michael Jordan up there, I think Larry Ellison, young Bill Gates, definitely like this. But Michael Jordan is open and he's just like, you know, I don't have a gambling problem. I have a competition problem. And Kobe would tell stories about, he's like, Kobe's like, you know, Michael Jordan's my older brother. I'm competitive when it comes to basketball. Michael's competitive with everything, like who can eat the salad the fastest or just, he's just got an addiction to competition. And yet I was reading this obscure biography of Michael Jordan, I think it was written before he retired. And they were talking about in the history, this is after Michael signed to Nike. And within the first few years, immediate success.

• 25:24David Senra?

  But then there's this guy that got in Michael Jordan's ear to maybe convince him to go and like launch with somebody else. And they had a meeting where they're, essentially somebody in Nike warned them, like, you don't understand, Phil Knight is the most competitive person on the planet. If you do this and you betray him, like he will chase you to the ends of the earth. And I just remember reading that book and like, they're saying this to one of the most competitive people, saying, no, you think Michael Jordan's competitive? You haven't seen anything with this guy. And the reason I think it's funny is because in Shoe Dog, obviously autobiography, he's like, yeah, I'm a pretty competitive fellow. I'm like, that might be an understatement.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  I have to say, David, I'm thinking right now about ending the podcast because I really am upset that you didn't name me as one of the most competitive people you've met. No, look, at the end of the day, let's be straight out about it. It's not politically correct.

• 26:15David Senra?

  Yeah.

• 26:16Speaker 01

  But business is a competitive, cutthroat sport. Now, I'm not saying you do anything immoral or illegal and you have to have guidelines. But if you're not willing to get out there and do what Magic Johnson did on the court or Michael Jordan or any of the greats, I learned it from Irvin. Irvin, who I am crazy about, who I helped start his business career, I only mention it because he's been kind to me beyond belief in his autobiography and everything else. He came to me and said, look, I want to be in business. No other athletes at that time said that. And they did their service and 35, they were done.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Irvin said, when I'm done, I want to be able to be a businessman. And we went and set that course. What I learned from Irvin was an extraordinary lesson that helped me build CA, which was when he was doing the fast break, which was referred to as showtime down that court. He had no goal except to score. And he didn't care who got that ball in the basket. It just had to get in there. And you had four guys, two and two, running down that court or three and one. With him carrying that ball and he'd moved down that court, he would pick whoever he thought could make that shot.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  And he had no ego about it.

• 27:45David Senra?

  So how'd you use that idea at CA?

• 27:46Speaker 01

  Because it was about winning at the end of the day. It's about competition. It's about not having an ego about it. One of the great things we did at CA is I didn't care who scored. I just wanted to score. And when we asked people to do things at CA, even the youngest people, we never asked them to do anything we wouldn't do ourselves. And if they were slow on it, I went and did it to prove a point. I can't tell you how many times a week, in a morning meeting where I asked someone to do something, or one of the department heads asked someone to do something, and it didn't get done by five o'clock, one of us did it.

• 28:29David Senra?

  I found one of my all-time favorite quotes when I was reading the book Zero to One. The quote says, "The single most powerful pattern I have noticed is that successful people find value in unexpected places. And they do this by thinking about business from first principles instead of formulas." That is exactly what AppLovin has done with their advertising platform. AppLovin connects you with over a billion potential new customers inside mobile games. AppLovin allows you to capture undivided attention. AppLovin ads are full-screen video ads that are watched for an average of 35 seconds. That is retention that blows other ad platforms out of the water. And you can launch on AppLovin in minutes. You set the goal and AppLovin achieves it.

• 29:11David Senra?

  There's no complex setup, no expertise needed, and AppLovin scales quickly. They can put your ads in front of over a billion potential customers. Other businesses have seen immediate results, have scaled to hundreds of thousands of dollars of spend per day and increased their revenue by millions. So you want to get started quickly before all of your competitors are on AppLovin. And you can do that by going to applovin.com. That's applovin.com.

• 29:40David Senra?

  This is why yesterday was so important. Because it's one thing, like, we've obviously built a friendship. We've had countless dinners. We spent a lot of time talking. I fucking read your book like three times. I had this thought, and we're gonna go in a weird direction. I had dinner with Charlie Munger when he was 99 years old, okay? And anybody at 99 is gonna have some level of cognitive decline, right? It's just gonna happen. And I'm sitting across from this guy, and all I remember is like, I have to work hard when I'm like reading books and like, I highlight everything, I take notes, I reread them. People are like, he has such a good memory. He's like, I've read the thing, I've read my notes 10 times. This is not, I don't have a good memory. And yet, I would ask Charlie, he was sitting in front of his bookshelf behind him, and I'd see a book that, you know, he'd recommend reading one time, and I had read.

• 30:25David Senra?

  And I'm like, oh, Charlie, tell me about, you know, this biography of Henry Kaiser behind you. And he would rattle off the businesses he built, the revenue of the companies, what happened to that company, how many, what happened to his business partners? And then after we went from his library to go to dinner, I was like, hey, do you mind if I go through your bookshelf? He's like, go ahead. I'm assuming, you know, I pick up the book, probably covered in notes. Nothing, completely empty, like, maybe like a one or two notes and pencil in the margin. And when I realized this, like, my God, imagine what his brain was like, his mind was like, when he was 45 or 65, and that is who you're competing against. I thought about that yesterday, cuz obviously understood and read about your work ethic. We've talked about it.

• 31:09David Senra?

  But then to also see it, even, you know, you're six decades into your career. And I was like, oh, there's like different levels to this. It's like a fundamental difference between like, reading about something and then observing it. So, I wanna tie this together, like, I wasn't expecting you on your competitive drive. When you jumped into the agent business in the very beginning, was it obvious that you were just gonna be able to outwork everybody else around you? Was it obvious to you at that time?

• 31:32Speaker 01

  It was obvious to me, but no one else. Everyone said we were gonna fail. One of my closest friends I worked with at William Morris, I said something to me, I have not forgotten since he said it to me in 1974. It's something I will never forget, and it, it turned out to be such a fantastic stimulant for me. To this day, we were sitting together, we were having a coffee, he said to me, so good that you're starting this business, in a year, you'll be looking for a job. I said, really? And what makes you think that? He said, oh, you're gonna fail. I said, really? He said, yes. You can't make it, there's almost 200 agencies out there.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  You're not gonna compete with the big ones. Second incident, within six months of that, a leading TV literary agency, run by the best friend of one of our guys, we met with the thought of merging, which would give us what we needed, which were writers, cuz they're the font of packaging, right? In the meeting, and I told you this story before, so I wanna say it fast and not repeat it in detail, the four partners of that agency said, you know, we'll never represent any movie stars. And I looked at them, I said, why do you say that? And he said, you'll never get them.

• 33:01Speaker 01

  I said, we're gonna have all of them. And he said, you're just so arrogant. I said, I'm not arrogant at all, actually. I just know I'm gonna outwork every one of them. Every time we signed a movie star, which was once a week, we took out a full red page ad in Variety, this is when there was no computers, people actually read, and took out every Friday. Every time we signed a movie star, I took that ad, tore it, put it in an envelope to those four guys. And I did it for the next 10 years. Now, competition, love it. Monopoly, absolutely love it.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  There's no room for competition. I love Peter Thiel's Monopoly lectures at Stanford. He's spot on.

• 33:54David Senra?

  He says competition is for losers.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  It is for losers, because you're competing with yourself, basically. That's how I view it. I'm not competing with anybody else. It's why I keep my calls to a minimum, my Zooms to a minimum, my meals to a minimum of time devoted. When someone says to me, I have to take an hour Zoom, I kinda laugh at them. I said, what law is there on the planet that says a Zoom has to be an hour? I said, frankly, if you get free Zoom, they cut you off in 45 minutes. I said, so what rule is it that has to be an hour? Oh, I don't know. I do them in 20 minutes. I just don't believe it. If it's a, if we're in the middle of a critical diligence item, or somebody's trying to explain something really complicated, okay, I get that.

• 34:41Speaker 01

  But concept, for example, of hour meetings, let's just fill the hour, even if we have nothing to say. I don't want any small talk, it's not social time. I'd love to hear about your kids, but I'd like to hear that over dinner or lunch. I'm not interested. Let's get down to what we're doing. What are we doing? We're trying to build a business. We're trying to market that business. And we're trying to blow out the competition as fast, as cleanly, as simply, and as brutally as we can. Because the idea is to keep it going until they can't see straight. And to do it any other way makes no sense to me.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Now, by the way, there are people that have done it without that thesis, but it's not a thesis I subscribe to.

• 35:32David Senra?

  There are people that have done it without this ruthless competitive drive, you mean?

• 35:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, they've, there's, by the way, and I'm excluding creative people, because creative people have a hard and a soft side. They have a much harder side than people tend to imagine or think. But they have a very soft side, cuz they're very sensitive. It's that sensitivity and perceptual ability tied together that creates images or words. But they also have a very hard side. I've watched Marty Scorsese take Harvey Weinstein apart in a room like he was a toothpick over a movie that he was doing, where Harvey was giving him the dumbest notes imaginable.

• 36:14David Senra?

  Imagine thinking you can be in a position to give Scorsese notes on a movie.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  Well, that's the whole point, isn't it? Listen, I've been in rooms with mega filmmakers, cuz we had all of them. At one time, CA representative of the top 50 grossing Variety box office filmmakers, we had 46. 46. And I was upset, cuz I didn't have all of them. There were four I couldn't get, and it really upset me, and it gnawed at me my whole career there. But I find it, notes are good if you give them, and then let somebody do what they wanna do. They know better.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Now, on timing and other things like that, that's a different story. But nobody should be giving Marty notes about the core of his film, or the conceit of a character, or where he's putting the camera, you know? It's a joke. It really is a joke. I mean, the man's seen every movie ever made. He has an encyclopedic knowledge. And it's interesting, he's like Charlie Munger, but he's not, doesn't do that for a living. There are people that are gifted in their recall. I'm not one of those people. You just said you're not.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  I really have to struggle with memory that I need to keep in place for what I do.

• 37:51David Senra?

  Tell me more about this hard side of some of these creative geniuses that you worked with. What do you think is driving their, like, their need to be hard? Is it just their disagreeable when it comes to their craft?

• 38:04Speaker 01

  Not at all. I think they are protecting their vision. I think filmmakers have a very clear vision of what they wanna achieve. I think sometimes they lose their way, but they get it back. I had a situation with Barry Levinson and Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise on Rain Man, where Dustin couldn't find a character in the first week, and I think Barry got very frustrated, because the movie was, a lot of it was not scripted. A lot of it was done in the moment. I think that the movie...

• 38:43Speaker 01

  benefited from this problem at the beginning because Dustin found the character. Barry had the patience to let him do it, which is hard because you're losing money every day. Everyone forgets that. And then Barry found a balance of improvisation versus script. And you've, the movie's perfect, perfect from beginning, Dan.

• 39:09David Senra?

  So bring me back to the meeting between Scorsese and Weinstein. That's why the hard side of him came out because he was protecting his vision?

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Well, Marty had a point of view that was right. That's why I ended that meeting pretty fast. First of all, he shouldn't have been in the editing room. It's okay for Marty's agents to be in the editing room, but not the producer unless the producer is someone incredibly close to him where they've done multiple movies together.

• 39:35David Senra?

  You've been around a lot of founders. Isn't that same instinct to protect the vision that Marty had in that situation? Isn't it the exact same thing that they're doing?

• 39:42Speaker 01

  I think it's a common denominator of anyone who's successful. I think we're talking about all the things that make people successful in any vocation, dedication, work ethic, intelligence, curiosity. Protect the vision. Find things that give you food for the thought for the vision. Inventory them in your head. Let them marinate because if they stay in your head, that means you're on to something. It's no different than the way I collect art. I collect art contextually, which is I see as many images as I can.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  My brain takes in what I like, rejects what I don't over time, and that's how I collect. So it's a foundational issue of context. And I think filmmakers do the same thing.

• 40:36David Senra?

  Yeah, you've spent a bunch of time with Josh Kushner, I know, especially at the beginning of Thrive. I just spent some time with him and a large part of our discussion was really just like about his vision. And from hearing him speak and just listening to him like kind of map everything, his thoughts out, it was like, you said protecting the vision is an interesting way to think about it, the way I thought about it. I read this biography of this guy. He was an engineer, started Harman Kardon, the high-end audio equipment. And when I was-

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Sidney Harman?

• 41:03David Senra?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 41:04Speaker 01

  He was a guy I knew well.

• 41:05David Senra?

  Yeah, he's got a great book. I think the autobiography is called Mind Your Business.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  I've read it. He was an amazing man and I'm an audiophile. And he at one time made the greatest speakers. They were called Infinity IRS 1Bs, and they were four towers, not two.

• 41:26David Senra?

  It doesn't surprise me that he was able to build the best product in the category that he competed in. He describes his philosophy in that book, but what I'm hearing from the experiences that you've had with some of these creative geniuses, some of the conversations I have with these founders, he put it the best way. He's like, the founder is the guardian of the company's soul. And I was listening to Josh speak and during our conversation, I was like, oh, he's guarding the company's soul. He wants to make sure there's a soul inside of Thrive.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  I met Josh when he was at Harvard Business School. Jared, his brother, was a friend of mine and asked me to help him with. Josh in Harvard Business School had a very valuable game company while he was in school. And Jared asked me to help him with it. Josh then is exactly the same as the Josh today. There's no difference. Wildly smart, very loyal, low-key, thoughtful, highly intelligent, and very easy to talk to, and will hold his ground.

• 42:33Speaker 01

  But what makes him fantastic is he'll yield his position if you can talk him out of it. I love people that hold their ground until you prove them wrong.

• 42:45David Senra?

  Yeah, I would say since you just made, you kind of like connected this whole theme of this conversation we're having right now. It's like, we're really just talking about the traits of people who are successful regardless of the domain they choose to operate in. And that's something that reoccurs in all these biographies. It's like, I don't care if the idea's not mine, I just want to win. And so if you can push back on me and say, no, David, you're wrong about X, Y, Z, which has happened several times, like especially with my approach to podcasting over the years, I'll be like, it might take me a while, but then I'll eventually flip. And I think usually you see that comment, and I think of like Steve Jobs. I just finished rereading Make Something Wonderful, which is this book put out by His Widows, an excellent book. But there's a ton of examples in that case where it's just like, he had thought X and he was really adamant about thought X. And then he would test this.

• 43:30David Senra?

  They said something like, what did dolphins have, like echolocation? He would throw out an idea and sometimes he didn't even believe in that idea, but he would throw it out and just because he wanted a reaction back. And then the information comes back to a most like sonar, like whatever dolphins have. And then he'd think about it for a little bit and then he'd wind up changing his mind.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  I consulted for years for him on Pixar when he first had the idea. And it was some of the best times I ever had because he's whip smart, unbelievable memory, totally unstoppable with an idea, and could take completely entrenched positions on things. And actually you could talk him out of it if he agreed. The best trait any businessman can have. When I ran CAA, I had a very simple thesis. I'll take ideas from anybody. No idea is stupid because it may, a bad idea may stimulate a good idea. And I want to hear from young people.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  I'm not interested so much in the opinions on new things from the older people, but from the older people, I want their wisdom to be spread all over it. We had a setup where every 90 days, we put 200 people in a circle with their chairs tied to each other. And everybody had 30 seconds to pitch an idea and you couldn't pass. We had a mailroom guy pitch an idea about cable. We promoted them on the spot to Asia, on the spot. It was that good.

• 45:05David Senra?

  Explain this 200 chairs tied together.

• 45:08Speaker 01

  What I came up with was this concept for meetings. And we did it at all our retreats where everyone sat in a circle or an oval. As we grew, it went from a circle to an oval because the geometry didn't work. And we made everybody's chairs touch. There was no way out of the circle or oval. That was done intentionally. And if you wanted to get out, you had to push your chair back and you could see the hole as big as it could be. We would meet in with that as a foundation that everyone was participating. And I ran it and I would sit there and I'd call people that didn't say anything and it coaxed them to say things. Some people were upset, but everyone came around and they end, thank you for pushing

• 45:53Speaker 01

  me out of my hole. And people need to learn how to communicate in groups, but the people that run those groups have to learn how to listen and learn how to get ideas from people.

• 46:08David Senra?

  And so you literally developed a mechanism where every single person in the company, down to the people working in the mailroom, could pitch an idea directly to the founder.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  To everyone that was a senior executive in the company, we were all there. Everybody was there. The whole concept was we want to hear from you. I started the first meeting with saying, no idea is too dumb. I want to hear everything. Over my career, some of the greatest ideas I've ever had or stolen or appropriated have been from other people. And as you know, I'm a mega Picasso fan of all my art. The guy appropriated everything. One of his most famous sculptures of bullhorns, which is handlebars from a bicycle that he

• 46:59Speaker 01

  saw with a seat welded together.

• 47:02David Senra?

  Didn't he have that, that quote that Steve Jobs would repeat, that good artists copy, great artists steal? I think that's Picasso, right?

• 47:08Speaker 01

  I don't know, but it sounds about right. But Steve, for example, had a vision about computerized animation that Disney didn't share. They were wrong. He was right. That's it. You know? It's Barry Diller's famous line, which I will never forget and still use all the time. He competed to buy CBS, I think, or Paramount, I don't remember which one, but some, or Redstone, got both of them somehow. And when Barry was asked by the press for, you know, what did he think? He lost. He looked at them and he said, he won, we lost the next case, which is like, says it all to me.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  It was so brilliant. He won, we lost, next case. He's right. Six words. You can't look back. I am so upset when friends of mine that try to do deals that I consult on and they make a mistake or they lose it and then they dwell on it. It's dumb. It's not going to change. So what are you looking back for? I don't like to look backwards. I think you have to always look forward. There are people that totally disagree with me, but I'm a forward-looking person. If I've made a mistake, God only knows. I think one of the reasons founders talk to me is that I can tell them things they're going to do wrong because I've done it all.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  I've made every mistake in business you can make. I've had some wins too, but I've made a lot of mistakes. My goal is to use that to prevent my young people from making further mistakes because they're all going to be the same.

• 48:49David Senra?

  It's unbelievably valuable if they can learn from other people's experiences. I think that's, you know, one of the things I get most out of our conversations. I also like that you are unapologetically extreme. You don't hide the fact that you are an extreme personality that you were when you were younger. You start to this day, you just threaten to jump out of the chair and I think throttle me is the word that you use.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  I was trying to be polite.

• 49:07David Senra?

  That's really polite.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  But I did say I'm too old to do it.

• 49:10David Senra?

  That's fine. I wouldn't even fight back. That's fine. I have too much respect for you. Tell me about this deal that we can talk about. I know you have a few deals going on, once a few or not.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  One I can't talk about.

• 49:19David Senra?

  Exactly. So tell me about the one that you can talk about.

• 49:21Speaker 01

  Well, it's public. I can say that Bill Ackman and I have been friends for 33 years. Had a discussion about his position in Universal Music. We were kicking it around. He's a, he was a large shareholder, was on the board.

• 49:38Speaker 01

  I like Lucian Grange a lot because he's a talent guy. And my thesis about all these companies, if you don't have someone that understands talent running the company, because you can always get an operator. If you don't have someone who understands talent, that company is going to die. And Lucian's really good, but Lucian's growing the company geometrically every year, signing every artist. Publishing is great and the stock keeps going down. And it crept down to like, you know, 10 points under the IPO price. And I said to Bill, let's take it private. And he loved the idea. And a number of things occurred.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  I told him we couldn't do it unless it was friendly. Because Bill has done both. Bill's very smart. I mean, really smart and very direct, which is what I like about him. Because as you know, I like, I love your opinions because you tell me what you think. And we did some diligence, met with Lucian to see if he'd be interested if we did do something. Gave him a 41,000-foot overview. Made it very clear that a condition proceeding to the deal would be his running the show. We would support it. I would become chair and support him, and particularly in the tech and AI area,

• 51:03Speaker 01

  which he's very attuned to, but could use some help. You know, in his job, there's not enough hours in the day. There just aren't. You think about the amount of time he has to spend internally, externally, with talent in studios. It's just endless. It's an impossible job. It's like so difficult and he does it brilliantly. And we sent the letter. We did it publicly, so there's no secret. There's nothing nefarious. No one's going behind anybody's back. Put the money terms right on the table. We're very well financed. Made a very handsome deal, offer, and we're waiting for an answer.

• 51:46David Senra?

  Deal is how the best founders turn the world into their talent pool. I've been studying how history's greatest founders operate for a decade. And one thing they all have in common is they understand that recruiting and hiring the very best talent is your most important priority. A players recognize other A players, which is why top companies like Ramp, Shopify, 11 Labs, Uber and DoorDash all use Deal. Many of the top founders I know have personally invested in Deal after using their product. And what they discovered is that Deal is the best company in the world at building infrastructure for global hiring. Deal will help your business hire, pay and manage any worker anywhere in the world so you can retain the best talent anywhere and spend the rest of your time focusing on what you do best, delivering value to your customers. The founder of 11 Labs has a great description

• 52:30David Senra?

  of the value Deal can give your company. He said, "We built 11 Labs to break down language and communication barriers. With Deal enabling us to hire and support exceptional talent anywhere, we can accelerate our innovation and bring more voices, stories and ideas to every corner of the world." Deal is trusted by over 40,000 businesses. Learn how they can help your business today by going to deal.com/cenra. That is deal.com/cenra. So we talked about the opportunity cost of your time and picking which project to dedicate your attention to, your resources to. Why did you choose to do this?

• 53:08Speaker 01

  I think music is a critical component going forward in the new internet era, particularly with AI. We've seen it, what's going on with Suno and Udio, where they're taking IP that other people own, even 10 seconds of it, and constructing custom-made songs. Music is never going away. I think the advent of Daniel X Spotify, which he developed in a garage in Sweden, in Stockholm, is a game changer. And I think that music's at the foundation of so many things that are digitally based,

• 53:51Speaker 01

  from Vip games to movies, television, AI, all of the image capturing that's done. Don't you find it fascinating that on TikTok, Instagram and YouTube, almost everything you see, someone chooses music to go behind it? It's part of our culture worldwide, not, it's not country by country. There's a common denominator of British and American music around the world. And it's a door opener. It's a, it's something everyone can hear and relate to, even if they don't speak the same language. So I love the idea. I love the Bill's financing capability.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  I love Lucian's management and talent expertise. And I like the fact that I grew up in that business. My first job was in the music business. Started a music division at CA that to this day is the tops. I think it's a lot of complementary factors. Whether we get it or not, I have no idea. It's frankly up to one shareholder and that's one family that controls 28% of the stock.

• 55:02David Senra?

  What do you think would the effect of AI be on the music industry? So I talked to Jimmy Iovine about this. I still don't understand. He texted me about this like two days ago and I'm reading through this. I still don't understand what he means. So I'll see him when he gets back. But if Universal Music Group has, I think it's the largest music category in the world, right? AI is not going anywhere. You said people are already taking and training new songs based on other people's ownership. Is the idea that like the record labels could do that themselves? Or you're saying that's going to be a huge potential future income stream?

• 55:36Speaker 01

  I'm not going to say anything about it because I think it's a very difficult problem that right now is under analysis by all the music companies.

• 55:44David Senra?

  Is there anything analogous that you've experienced in other forms of entertainment from the past?

• 55:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. I was appointed to a US trade delegation in 1996 by President Clinton. I was a large fundraiser for him. And I went to Beijing with 20 business people, President Bush, 41, to try to get them to stop pirating video, cassette movies and television shows.

• 56:13David Senra?

  The Chinese?

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Yes. They were the largest producer of pirated tape in the world. And we went over, I spent a week there. It was a fascinating week. I got to sit with Chong Zemin, who was the prime minister, the chairman of the party. And the, I guess, I, they don't call him the prime minister. He was the chairman. Zhu Rongzi, who was the brilliant financial, former mayor of Shanghai, who did all the financial architecture for what you're now seeing of getting China into the, you know, 20th century, 21st century. And we had round and round of meeting.

• 56:58Speaker 01

  And President Bush was incredibly popular there because when, you know, he was ambassador to China and he was very well liked.

• 57:08David Senra?

  You don't have to comment on this if you don't want to, but something just came to mind because I just had a conversation with Ed Catmull, founder of Pixar. And I would have to imagine you and Bill Ackman are doing this because you think AI could be a massive advantage and a tailwind to the music industry. And the reason I bring this up is because Ed was constantly, his entire career, his whole goal was to take the latest technology and apply it to storytelling and animation, right? With the stated goal.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Which he did.

• 57:33David Senra?

  Which he did. His stated goal of making the world's first feature-length animated computer, computer animated movie, which he did with obviously with Toy Story. We brought, I have this guy that works with me on my other practice founders. His name's Maxim. He's a young filmmaker. I flew him over from England to go to this recording with Ed Catmull because Maxim wants to make film, make films. This is one of the best filmmakers of all time or one of the best companies that made the best films of all time. Maybe you should talk to him. And me, him and Maxim were talking before we started recording. And I asked him, I was like, how, you know, he's obviously pro AI. He's pro technologies. Like you cannot get, Ed Catmull, that is. He's like, just like Walt Disney. He called Walt Disney a technologist. And he's like, go through Walt Disney's career. He always embraced the latest technology in service of telling the better story or completing the project in a better way

• 58:18David Senra?

  that whatever he's working on. And I go, Ed, when do you think we're going to see the first just phenomenal, full-length, completely AI-generated movie? And he's just like, there's a better question that you're not asking. And I bring this up because you were best friends with Michael Crichton. And he says, "There was a line of demarcation in our industry, pre-Jurassic Park and post-Jurassic Park." Like, once Steven Spielberg made Jurassic Park, the entire movie industry was changed forever. And, and part of that was obviously the CGI of the dinosaurs. And he's like, how many minutes of CGI dinosaurs are in that movie? And I was like, I don't know. I've seen the movie a million times since I was a kid. I was like, I don't know, like 20. And I think the answer is like four minutes.

• 59:02David Senra?

  And his point was like, you can even use, the technology is even powerful, even if you use it for a short amount.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:08David Senra?

  It could be 10 seconds in a three-minute song or six minutes in a two-hour movie.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  When I put Jurassic Park together and I read the book, I said to Michael a couple of things. I said, one,

• 59:24Speaker 01

  It's brilliant and everyone loves dinosaurs. Two, you don't need a big star because the dinosaur is the star, which was important financially. And three, there's only one human on the planet that could realize this into a movie. And if he doesn't want to do it, we can't do it. And it was Steven, sent the book to Steven, called me the next day, said, I'm in. I believe there's more than four minutes. What Steven managed to do is for the times he used the dinosaurs, the biggest fear for that movie was can you make them look real? And Steven said he could do it and I knew he could do it and he did it.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  Everyone was scared to death that it would look like an early Godzilla movie, you know, and where it was just so obvious of what it was. Steven integrated the CGI and the actual dinosaur parts that he made and shot. There was a head, there was, you know, a part of a body that he didn't see the whole thing. He did it brilliantly, but he got them to look really real. He researched who could do it. They tested and tested and tested and they got it done.

• 1:00:40David Senra?

  Why do you think Steven Spielberg is the only person? Was he a singular character?

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Steven had the ability to understand the storytelling side, the casting side, and most importantly, the technical side. In those days, not everybody had that. Remember, that was in the 90s. Not everybody had the ability to use technical things. Jim Cameron did, Steven did. Not every director could do that.

• 1:01:10David Senra?

  And so was he like a Walt Disney kind of character too? Where he was throughout his entire career, trying to embrace the latest technology that would help him build?

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Steven knew more about everything. He and Marty, Marty, Steven and Stanley Kubrick, to me, knew more about film, filmmaking, film history, respect for film. I put together a group for film preservation around Marty and it was Marty, Steven, Sidney Pollack, Francis Coppola and Stanley Kubrick, all clients of ours, of mine. And that's what they were into. They were real, real people about film. You know, when I go to speak at a film school these days, I get very nervous. I'm particularly nervous around my 24-year-old daughter, Minty.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  Her friends, who I'm crazy about, when they talk about old movies, it's like stops at 1990, you know? And I did a film class where I started, I didn't even introduce myself. I had two classes merged together. I was asked to do this. I said, who's David? Anybody here know David Lean? No hands. Anybody here know Frank Capra? Anybody here know Willy Wellman? Anybody here know Michael Curtiz? I kept going too. Those were movie directors from the 40s, mostly 40s and 50s, that made some of the greatest films of all time. Lawrence of Arabia.

• 1:02:44David Senra?

  Which Spielberg would re-watch every year when he was learning to make films too.

• 1:02:48Speaker 01

  I still watch it. Matter of fact, one of my best, most cherished gifts from Marty is the original, the full-length, uncut version of Lawrence of Arabia on a giant video disc that they stopped making machines for. I thank God still have one. Do you remember those, the big ones before the little ones came?

• 1:03:10David Senra?

  No, this is before my time.

• 1:03:12Speaker 01

  Oh, I keep forgetting you're a child. In any case, the, there's no respect for the foundation of the film business, in my opinion. It's really interesting as an art collector. I had dinner the other night with Cecily Brown, who's one of my favorite contemporary artists. She talks about artists of the past with great respect and unbelievable knowledge. So she pointed to an artist for me to look at when we were at dinner the other night. And she started talking about Lucian Freud, who's an amazing artist.

• 1:03:54Speaker 01

  This artist was influenced by Freud. She knew the whole chain. And most great art is derived from other art, you know? I have a fantastic Mark Groggen painting at my house. He's a LA artist, very gifted guy. There's two faces in it that are right out of African masks and Picasso's Mademoiselle Daveney.

• 1:04:20David Senra?

  You wouldn't know what you're looking at unless you had that background of all the time and effort you've put into just understanding art and all the history of art.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  As I said before, knowledge is power. So I have a room in my house that has probably 25 African antiquities, three Picassos, all of which came out of those antiquities. Because 50 years before the turn of the century, between 1850 and 1900, the Catholic missionaries were tossed out of Western Africa, Nigeria, which had a whole series of regions of tribal art. And they were relinquary figures, they were religious figures. They took them all with them when they were thrown out to Paris and Brussels. It's one of the biggest museums of African artists in Paris because they came back.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  In the early 1900s, when they ran out of money, they put these masks in the weekend little fairs that they had on the river, on the left bank, and they sold them for four or five flanks. Picasso bought 50 of them. And there are pictures of his studio on L'Urgent with these masks everywhere. If you look at his early art, all the faces are African masks. And you know, it's funny, Phil Knight and I tried to do a project to take, do a portable show for inner cities to show that relationship for a point of pride of where your culture, what your culture did. Some of my African art is as good as some of the European art in the same period.

• 1:05:57Speaker 01

  It's that good.

• 1:05:58David Senra?

  Michael, what I love about our conversations is no matter what I prompt you with, you can come up with these incredible stories and I never know the direction that we're going to go in. I really appreciate you taking the time and doing this again with me.

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  I enjoy talking to you, as you know, except when I'm on the plane working.

• 1:06:13David Senra?

  Thanks. I'll see you again soon.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:06:16David Senra?

  I hope you enjoyed this episode. Please remember to subscribe wherever you're listening and leave a review. And make sure you listen to my other podcast, Founders. For almost a decade, I've obsessively read over 400 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, searching for ideas that you can use in your work. Most of the guests you hear on this show first found me through Founders.