Pod Insights Data Over Dogma Pride Month vs. the Bible! About this episode Welp it's June, and that means LGBTQIA+ Pride month! At least that's what it means for many. For a minority of people, June is national grumpy homophobe month.
One thing about the grumpy set is that they really love to use the Bible to shore up their dogmatic belief that gay folks (and trans and bi and all the other acronym-represented people) are going against God. So let's talk about it.
Our first segment is about pride itself. The word, that is. Is the rainbow community committing the worst of the 7 deadly sins every June? Pastor Mark Driscoll sure seems to think so.
Then we'll dive into some of the passages of the Bible folks use to justify their anti-LGBTQIA+ stance. Do those passages mean what those people say they mean? And even if they do, are modern believers required to follow them?
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Transcript 0:01 Speaker 00 I think most, basically all Christians in a modern context would be very happy to say that they disavow the idea of marriage is one man purchasing a woman from another man. We're all on board with that.
0:21 Speaker 01 Hopefully, yeah. I think there are some people in Davis County who probably are not quite there yet.
0:28 Speaker 00 Okay, fair enough.
0:34 Speaker 01 Hey, everybody. I'm Dan McClellan.
0:36 Speaker 00 And I'm Dan Beecher.
0:37 Speaker 01 And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma Podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. And boy, do we have some combat to do tonight.
0:52 Speaker 00 It's all combat today, baby.
0:53 Speaker 01 We're gonna slip right into those combat footies and we're gonna get going.
0:59 Speaker 00 We're warriors today. Happy Pride Month, Dan.
1:04 Speaker 01 Happy Pride Month, Dan. Right back at you.
1:07 Speaker 00 And that is what, that is what this week's episode is all about.
1:12 Speaker 01 We're going thematic this week.
1:14 Speaker 00 And this is how we know that, that it's springtime, because pride comes before the fall. No, wait. Anyway, what we're gonna be talking about in the first segment is actually the word pride. We're gonna be taking issue with the sin of pride. And then in the second segment for our chapter and verse, we're going to be doing a, we're gonna be looking at some passages that have maybe been used in some not very nice ways against some, some very nice people.
1:45 Speaker 01 And yes, perhaps they've been used in particularly prideful ways.
1:50 Speaker 00 Ooh.
1:50 Speaker 01 If one, if one may be so bold.
1:52 Speaker 00 Ooh, very, very, ooh. We've, we're getting, we're, we're gonna get them, hoist them on their own petard, if you will.
2:04 Speaker 01 Whatever that means, yes.
2:05 Speaker 00 Whatever, whatever that ends up meaning.
2:07 Speaker 01 Yes. Petard, I think, was a bomb, wasn't it?
2:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah.
2:10 Speaker 01 Yeah. And so to be hoisted by one's own is to accidentally blow oneself up.
2:15 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah. So we're, we're gonna blow them up on their own bombs. Uh, so first, though, let's take issue.
2:28 Speaker 00 And we're gonna start with, the issue we're gonna take is about pride. But our launching point is a lovely tweet. I'm not gonna call it a tweet. I don't, I, well, maybe I will. Here's, here's what I've decided, and I'm, I'm just gonna put this out into the world. I want all of you to take this on. Daniel and I were just talking about X and how when Elon first got Twitter and changed the name to X, I was like, I'm never gonna call it that. I'm always gonna call it Twitter, cuz that'll show him or something. And then I realized that, oh, he's changed it so much that it really is a very different place.
3:09 Speaker 00 So now I, I refer to the old thing as Twitter and this new abomination that welcomes Nazis and, and, you know, has a hate bot running around. And I call that X. I think that that is a perfectly fine appellation for what, for the dumpster fire that it has become. So, but I, but my theory is that the word tweet can now be used on any social media platform. If you did a short post, I call it a tweet. If you're on threads, you did a tweet.
3:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
3:45 Speaker 00 You didn't do a thread, you did a tweet. So anyway, we, we're launching with a tweet. Sorry about the rant. Got a little off topic. We're launching with a tweet from a real peach of a guy, Pastor Mark Driscoll.
3:59 Speaker 01 Yeah. Pastor Mark from Mars Hill.
4:03 Speaker 00 Gosh, he's a, he's a grump of a fella.
4:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
4:07 Speaker 00 And, and I'm not a fan.
4:10 Speaker 00 But he did, he did a tweet and I, I, do I read it? I'll, I'll.
4:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, go ahead and you can go ahead and read the tweet if you like.
4:18 Speaker 00 I'll read the tweet, but then we need to also describe the image that accompanies this.
4:23 Speaker 01 Yes.
4:24 Speaker 00 The tweet says, "Pride is what got Satan kicked out of heaven. Pride is what caused man to fall. Pride is the demonic counterfeit of repentance. Humble yourselves under the, under the mighty hand of God." And, okay, like, if that were what he posted and it were, I don't know, let's say February.
4:49 Speaker 00 I would be mostly okay with that. But there's this enormous dog whistle in that. And, and he, the accompanying image, do you want to just describe the image?
5:03 Speaker 01 So it's, it's, it's mainly colors ranging from dark brown to orange to yellow. And it is a bunch of people writhing in agony, bathed in flames.
5:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
5:17 Speaker 01 And then the-
5:19 Speaker 00 It is gruesome and horrifying.
5:21 Speaker 01 And the caption is, how God celebrates pride.
5:26 Speaker 00 Which honestly, like, the, the thought that you would be okay with your God, with the person, with the entity that is the object of your worship,
5:39 Speaker 00 to, to have as it, as his celebration, the, the burning and torture of human beings is, is astounding to me.
5:53 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. The, the song needs to go, his God is a pathetic God.
6:00 Speaker 00 Yeah.
6:00 Speaker 01 An evil God to, to tolerate, or even to quote unquote, celebrate, burning people alive is, is kind of the thing that they criticize in another prominent religion.
6:18 Speaker 01 I guess they, once, once June rolls around, all bets are off and, and they get to use whatever kind of rhetoric they like. But obviously this is a reference to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19, which we will talk about in the next segment.
6:37 Speaker 00 Right. It could also be hell. I mean, that's the other thing that this could, that the people burning in the lake of fire. It could be either. It could be any of those things. It's, it's a very unpleasant image.
6:48 Speaker 01 Yeah. I guess, you know, sending, sending folks to hell would be the other way to understand what, what he's talking about.
6:56 Speaker 00 But the thing, the, the, the very clear inference here is that he's not talking about,
7:03 Speaker 00 he's, he's making all these comments about pride and then it's a reference to June being gay pride month, or LGBTQ pride month.
7:14 Speaker 01 Yes.
7:15 Speaker 00 And I don't know, Dan, do you have any problem with that at all?
7:20 Speaker 01 I have all the problems with it, Dan.
7:25 Speaker 01 As much, and I am, you know, of all the people of who loathe dictionaries.
7:32 Speaker 00 I know.
7:33 Speaker 01 And retreating to a dictionary for, for any kind of adjudication of meaning. I'm, I'm not trying to say that pride has to mean these things, but I'm just pointing out that the people who do look at how people use words have divided up the word pride into multiple different senses.
7:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
7:53 Speaker 01 And there are senses that could be associated with what Mark is talking about in the body of his tweet. And there are other senses that are associated with pride month. And I'm actually going to appeal to the Oxford English Dictionary, my alma mater. I don't know if you can use alma mater for a place where you did a graduate degree.
8:17 Speaker 00 You went, you went to school in a book.
8:20 Speaker 01 Uh, but the dictionary, yeah, it was, it was crowded, it was warm, but um, when you look at the, the entry for pride, well, and it's a noun. Hopefully we all know that already, but uh, the main sense number one is the quality of being proud. Now, sense 11A, which lets you know, there are going to be a lot of senses, but 11A is a high, especially an excessively high opinion of one's own worth or importance, which gives rise to a feeling or attitude of superiority over others, inordinate self-esteem.
9:02 Speaker 01 So that is 11A, but I, I want to bring up another one as well, which is sense 12.
9:10 Speaker 01 So this is down a few arrogant, haughty, or overbearing behavior, demeanor, or treatment of others, especially as exhibiting an inordinately high opinion of oneself. So this is the stuff that you could say is what's addressed in the Bible, what is condemned in the Bible, particularly that word haughty. Even in the King James Version, we see haughtiness is called out explicitly on a number of different occasions. So that's, that's what we might call problematic pride. If we want to stick with alliteration. We're not into the whole brevity thing, but we are into alliteration.
9:52 Speaker 00 So why not?
9:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:54 Speaker 00 So alliteration is so alluring and aggravating. Ran out of A words.
10:02 Speaker 01 So that's a, I think that's a decent look at pride in the sense that, that Mark is using in the body of the tweet.
10:12 Speaker 00 Yeah.
10:13 Speaker 01 Now, this has nothing at all to do with the sense that is intended when people talk about Pride Month.
10:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
10:20 Speaker 01 And gay pride, because you have to go down all the way to sense 16B. Oh, excuse me. 16A, 16B is, is about events associated with gay pride. 16A is a sense of confidence, self-respect, and solidarity, as felt or publicly expressed by members of a group, typically one that has been socially marginalized, on the basis of their shared identity, history, and experience. Frequently attributive, compare gay pride. And then down further, it talks a bit about that. So you have, and, and I split it up into two different senses of pride. One is the I'm better than you pride.
11:05 Speaker 01 And the other is I'm not worse than you pride.
11:08 Speaker 00 Right.
11:09 Speaker 01 And those are, are, they're not really overlapped there.
11:12 Speaker 00 Or even like, you know, I, when I think of the pride of gay pride month, or, you know, the, the pride parade or whatever, I don't even think it's pride as a, you know, me compared to you moment. I think it's pride as in we are proud of ourselves for having made it through this. We're proud of, of ourselves for being able to be out and proud. In a society that doesn't want us to be like it does, it doesn't seem to me to be a declaration of I'm as good as you. It's just, we are, we, you know, we, we're holding to each other in this moment and we're, and we're, uh, we're lift, we're raising ourselves
11:56 Speaker 00 up because everyone else is trying to push us down.
12:00 Speaker 01 No.
12:01 Speaker 00 And that, that's a very different me. And this, this is one of the problems, right? Like this is something that happens a lot where people like, people like Driscoll like to take this jujitsu approach to language where they get to use the word in their way and in the other way and conflate the ways. And it happens so much. And you know, I, I see so many of, I was, I was just telling you about a post that I saw where the Utah Mammoth, that's the new Utah.
12:33 Speaker 01 New hockey team. Yeah. NHL.
12:37 Speaker 00 They, they posted, and the whole, the post was just a simple one. It was just, uh, their logo done in rainbow. Um, they didn't even, I don't even, did they even say happy pride? Yeah. They said, just say happy pride, hashtag tusks up. Cause that's their new thing. And, uh, 2.7 thousand comments later, uh, there, the comment section just went, haywire in all the ways that I suppose are predictable. But another, another thing that
13:17 Speaker 00 like, it's so, that's so funny to me is how many people, I think belligerently and willfully want to misunderstand what pride is.
13:29 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:30 Speaker 00 What it's about, what it's for, what, what, what's being celebrated. So many people saying, why are we making this about sex? And it's like.
13:40 Speaker 01 You're making it about sex.
13:41 Speaker 00 Right. What, what are you talking about? This has nothing to do with sex. It has to do with a group of people, you know what I mean? And, and, and their struggles and their triumphs.
13:54 Speaker 01 Yeah.
13:54 Speaker 00 But yeah, you're the one making it about sex. I just think, I, I think, I think that's what's funny is just willful, uh, refusal to, to any attempt at understanding.
14:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think because understanding means engaging the concerns on the terms of the people making them, thinking about systemic power asymmetries, thinking about how members of the LGBTQIA+ community have been mistreated by society at large for generations. And, you know, if you do that, you give away so much ground in the culture wars that so many people are trying to keep alive. Right. Like, somebody, I saw another tweet, or an X-ing, I don't know what they call
14:46 Speaker 01 them, but it was, you know, back in the 50s, you could be jailed in every state in the nation, or something like that, for this, and somebody's like, "We need to bring back the, bring back that old timey law." Right. And, you know, that's, that's an awful thing to cheer for, and if you, if you actually have to address the reality head on, you kind of have to acknowledge that is an awful thing to cheer for. Right. And, you know, anytime you are advancing a worldview that literally results in children
15:26 Speaker 01 taking their own lives because of bullying, because of depression, because of being made to feel like they don't belong in society, in their own bodies. Yeah. In God's presence. Rejection, yeah. Yeah. Anytime you're gleefully advancing a worldview like that, it's time to sit a few plays out. It's time to have a coke and a smile, and if you know the, the rest of that line, it's time for that as well. Yeah. That's abominable, and, yeah, to have to go about it fallaciously because you
16:05 Speaker 01 don't have a real case, just kind of exposes the, the intellectual corruption of going out and just making it clear why it's such, why it's necessary. Right. The more you push back against it... The more you demonstrate precisely why it is necessary.
16:28 Speaker 00 Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. A friend of mine actually posted on that, on that mammoth post, a friend of mine commented that he was thankful to the bigots for pointing out why pride is still necessary. Pride Month is necessary every month or every year.
16:48 Speaker 01 If you can be in public and say, hey, look at me, I belong. And you get people telling you, you deserve to die and that God's going to punish you in hell just for imagining that you belong.
17:01 Speaker 00 Right.
17:02 Speaker 01 You're, you're just making it more and more necessary. What's, what's hilarious is all the, all the influencers and even people with like responsibilities associated with the military who are like, why doesn't, as long as, I forget, they, they use some kind of slur to refer to members of, of that community, but they were like, as long as those people get a, an entire month and the military doesn't get a month for appreciation, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna continue to, to, you know, basically just be bigots and hateful. And, and other people are like, there is Military Appreciation Month.
17:42 Speaker 00 Right. And there's, and there's Veteran Appreciation Month. Yeah. It's like, there's two months or something. And, and, and then specific days as well. And also-
17:52 Speaker 01 Which betrays how little they actually care.
17:55 Speaker 00 Right. They don't-
17:56 Speaker 01 About the military, people serving in the military, veterans. It's like people getting upset about trans women competing in sports, when those people are also braying about how women need to stay in the kitchen and women shouldn't even be able to vote.
18:11 Speaker 00 Right.
18:12 Speaker 01 They don't actually care. It's, it's because it's, it's a, it's a battleground in the culture wars.
18:19 Speaker 00 Have you ever watched a fencing match? No? Then why are you not shutting up right now?
18:28 Speaker 01 You know, the holidays are just around the corner and I don't know how it is with y'all, but in our family, it's about food and particularly about big meals.
18:38 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
18:38 Speaker 01 And these are things we look forward to all year long. We have special stuff that we do that we did around Halloween time. Now we've got Thanksgiving coming up. There's a lot of prepping for them that takes over a lot of our day. And that can sometimes make it harder to be consistent about meals outside of the big meal. They can kind of take a backseat. And so sometimes you find yourself just kind of grazing in the pantry. I know all too well what that is like. And it can be hard to stay on track, hit your macros and eat well around the holidays. And this is one of the things that I think Factor does really well. This is something I know I'm going to open up my fridge and there are going to be Factor meals in there that can take care of my lunch.
19:23 Speaker 01 Two minutes in the microwave, it's delicious. These are things I know I enjoy. And I can try new stuff every week if I want to do that, too. Factor makes a big difference when we get around the chaos of the holidays.
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21:05 Speaker 01 I have forgotten all of it.
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22:59 Speaker 00 But one of the things I did want to get to is that, like I said, without the picture and its caption, Driscoll has made an interest like, and again, without the reference to June, Driscoll's made an interesting tweet about an actual thing, which is the so-called sin of pride. And I wanted to talk about that because
23:23 Speaker 01 The sin of pride, yeah.
23:25 Speaker 00 I wanted to talk about what that is, what it means and what it doesn't mean. Because he's not wrong that it is that pride is widely, you know, it's one of the seven deadly sins. It's the worst of them by most accounts, by most reckonings. I remember C.S. Lewis talking about pride being the worst sin of them all. And I tend to think that probably murder is worse than haughtiness, but you know, whatever. But I think his contention was something along the lines of all the other sins stem from a pride, from a point of pride, or something
24:04 Speaker 00 like that. So let's talk about the kind of pride that the Bible does condemn.
24:12 Speaker 01 Yeah.
24:14 Speaker 00 What are we talking about here?
24:16 Speaker 01 Well, probably the most famous passage having to do with pride is Proverbs 1618. Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall, which is
24:33 Speaker 01 everybody knows what's what's going on there. And the word there for pride is gaon, which is a Hebrew word that refers to can refer to height, it can refer to eminence, it can refer to pride. I'm looking through my my lexicon here because I seem to recall, I seem to recall some uses that are not necessarily negative.
25:01 Speaker 00 Okay.
25:01 Speaker 01 Like it's, it's not necessarily about bad pride. Yeah. So you have Isaiah 210, "Enter into the rock and hide in the dust from the terror of Adonai the Lord and from the glory of his." Gaon, so His Majesty.
25:21 Speaker 00 Okay.
25:22 Speaker 01 So pride is something that is associated with with good things.
25:27 Speaker 00 So even even in ancient Hebrew, we're not free of the word of words that have multiple meanings that are actually very much in conflict with with each other, or at least at at odds with each other.
25:41 Speaker 01 Well, at least the the the connotations can be positive or negative depending on the context.
25:48 Speaker 00 Right.
25:48 Speaker 01 So the word in and of itself doesn't necessarily constitute a value judgment. The the context must indicate if this is a positive or a negative value judgment.
26:01 Speaker 00 Which is confusing for the worst sin of all. You know what I mean? Like, that's that seems a little weird.
26:07 Speaker 01 Yeah, and when it talks about pride in a negative way, it is almost always about people who are wealthy, people who lord their power and their wealth over others, and people who insist they're better than others. You know, like, somebody who goes out and tweets about how God hates other people that
26:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
26:31 Speaker 01 doesn't like. And somebody who has a position of power and preeminence within a specific community and who relishes that and exploits it and all of that kind of stuff.
26:44 Speaker 00 Yeah, it does seem like, you know, having I have had many encounters on the Internet, not encounters with, but encounters with the work of Pastor Driscoll. And it does seem like it might, oh, man, you're playing with danger dangerous. You're in the danger zone when you start talking about pride, because that man is about as as prideful and haughty and self.
27:18 Speaker 00 Not not self assured. And that's the other thing is that like, we're not talking about self assurance or confidence. We're talking about arrogance and and and that sense that's that you're better than other people.
27:32 Speaker 01 Well, and and he was actually, I think he resigned from his leadership of Mars Hill Church in 2014. So 11 years ago, precisely for being verbally abusive, being arrogant and fostering a culture of fear.
27:48 Speaker 00 Right.
27:48 Speaker 01 And the elders, the elder board of Mars Hill, found him guilty of being quick tempered and domineering. And and he resigned before the investigation concluded, claiming God had released him from his role. And then he 2016 civil lawsuit filed by former members alleged he misused church funds and engaged in a pattern of racketeering activity. And then also, I find this hilarious, just because I have been learning an awful lot about about the things people do to get on the bestseller list.
28:25 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
28:26 Speaker 01 And he published a book in 2013 called A Call to Resurgence. And he evidently not only plagiarized portions of the book, but also his church paid over $200,000 to a marketing firm to artificially boost another book, Real Marriage, onto the New York Times Bestseller list. Something that he acknowledged doing and acknowledged was wrong. So so he has a history of doing precisely what his the text of his tweet sans image would be condemning.
29:05 Speaker 01 And to my knowledge, there's not been, I don't know about any public repentance for for what's for those kind of gross displays of of pride and arrogance and hotness.
29:21 Speaker 00 When I look at other, you know, I found a sort of
29:28 Speaker 00 A bunch of Bible verses about pride, a little art, you know, a little list of Bible verses about pride. And it's always the version of pride that is basically the antonym of humility.
29:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
29:43 Speaker 00 Right? It is, it is, it is the, it is the, and he even, even in his tweet, he talks about humble yourself before the Lord. But like, he doesn't seem to talk about being a humble person. He says humble yourself before the Lord, but it does seem like in all, in a lot of these, you know, and I'm looking at James 4 6, but he gives more grace. Therefore, it says, God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. Romans 12 16, do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight. Like, all of those so clearly say to me a
30:26 Speaker 00 very specific thing. And, and I don't see people like Driscoll promoting that.
30:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. He ain't, he ain't that. And, and we talked about Jordan Peterson's attempt to try to spin blessed are the meek.
30:44 Speaker 00 Right.
30:45 Speaker 01 Into blessed are, are the, the absolute unit monsters who just sheathe their swords and practice discipline with, with these, these hands that are registered deadly weapons.
31:00 Speaker 00 But I could kill you, but I won't. And that means Jesus loves me.
31:06 Speaker 01 Cause I'm better than you.
31:07 Speaker 00 Cause I'm better than you. Right.
31:10 Speaker 01 Which, which sounds an awful lot like, like what Driscoll does. He, in 2024, at the Stronger Men's Conference.
31:22 Speaker 01 In Springfield, Missouri, he was removed from the stage after publicly criticizing a sword swallowing performance by Alex Magala, a former stripper. He criticized it as demonic and akin to a strip show with a Jezebel spirit. And they yanked him off the stage.
31:44 Speaker 00 I remember that one. I remember that.
31:47 Speaker 01 And then he later posted on Twitter about live streaming to discuss the Jezebel spirit, to which he was exposed at the Stronger Men's Conference. It sounds like he's also currently being accused of structuring a church he started in Scottsdale, Arizona, to avoid oversight, where everything ran through him and he started doing 24/7 surveillance of members of the church, particularly one family who was shunned after their son kissed Driscoll's daughter.
32:27 Speaker 00 Oh, wow. Okay, that, yeah, I mean, he's a peach. I mean, I think, I think the, we can all agree that he's just a, just a sweet kid.
32:38 Speaker 01 But definitely a model of humility and definitely the anti, okay, that word didn't come out right. The antithesis, or as I used to say when I was younger, antithesis of, of a prideful person.
32:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, it, it's so interesting to, to see how, how they want to twist that word. And then, I mean, this is part of the problem of all biblical interpretation. It's part of the problem of just language use in general, is that, you know, we, the using of a specific word that has multiple meanings is always, is always a bit of a landmine, minefield.
33:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:29 Speaker 00 But when you're purposefully obfuscating, when you're purposefully pulling a switcho changeo, I don't think it says anything good about you.
33:40 Speaker 01 No, it kind of reminds me of claiming, just arbitrarily claiming, oh, I don't own all of the houses that I own. God owns them. I'm, I'm just the humble steward.
33:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, we're doing, we're running a greatest hits here of guys we dislike. Dave Ramsey. All right.
34:02 Speaker 01 It's exploiting the ambiguities of language and, and, and just the making claims that you know, are, are laughably false, just for the, the rhetorical value. And it's, it's pretty shameful. It's unbecoming of someone who claims to be a follower of the Prince of Peace and the one who said, blessed are the meek.
34:27 Speaker 00 And, and a representative thereof as well.
34:31 Speaker 01 Yeah. And it's really just a representative of toxic masculinity, right wing authoritarianism, social dominance orientation, and, and basically just a naked thirst for power and influence and money, which is, which is exactly what pride is.
34:48 Speaker 00 Yeah, there you go. And I'm just going to flag that if your church leader delights in the idea of literally anybody writhing in pain engulfed in flames, maybe see that as a bit of a red flag.
35:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah.
35:06 Speaker 00 All right. Well, let us, let us then move on. We're gonna, we're gonna get, we're gonna stick with the, the jerks as we move on to our chapter and verse.
35:20 Speaker 00 And for our chapter and verse, it's actually just verses and verses, various verses, verses, verses, verses. I tried to make the middle one V E R S U S.
35:30 Speaker 01 We're gonna, we're gonna put, we're gonna pit verses again, verses, verses, verses.
35:34 Speaker 00 Right, exactly. Yeah. Anyway, so let's talk a bit. We did a show a couple of years ago about sort of, does the, does the Bible actually condemn homosexuality? And, and just a quick recap, you can go back and listen to it or watch it if you want to, but the quick recap is, no, they don't, they didn't even know what homosexuality was.
35:59 Speaker 01 If we're talking about homosexuality as a reference to sexual orientation, which is what the overwhelming majority of the usage is directly pointing at. And, you know, again, as much as I hate dictionaries, you can look in the OED and you can look in pretty much any dictionary, that will be the first entry in there.
36:19 Speaker 00 Right. So, so, yeah, it doesn't even, it doesn't have anything to say about homosexuality in that sense. It does have plenty to say about men having sex with men. Says nothing about women having sex with women.
36:36 Speaker 01 Not in the Hebrew Bible, it doesn't, because they didn't care.
36:39 Speaker 00 They didn't care because, and one of the things that we learn and over and over again is that like women don't count. You know what I mean? Like they're, they're not, they're not even people in, in this, in this arrangement.
36:54 Speaker 01 And, and if we go back to the, the logic of marriage, it's a man purchasing the procreative capacities and the sexual availability of another woman from another man, usually her father.
37:06 Speaker 00 Right.
37:07 Speaker 01 And she was supposed to have that new car smell. The goods were supposed to be in pristine condition, meaning she had not been sexually penetrated by a penis.
37:20 Speaker 00 Right.
37:21 Speaker 01 Which is why, in many streams of Jewish tradition, even pretty traditional ones, a woman who has had sex with another woman is actually not the tainted goods that a woman who has already had sex with a man would be considered to be.
37:37 Speaker 00 Still a virgin, basically.
37:39 Speaker 01 Still a virgin. So, yeah, it's as far as they understood the concept of virginity, which was precisely, and we have, we have used these terms on this, on the show before, a vagina that has been penetrated by a penis.
37:55 Speaker 00 Right.
37:55 Speaker 01 And, and somebody made a one, I apologize or forget which mutual of mine on social media made this wonderful point, but they, they pointed out that men are so prideful and so arrogant to talk about virginity as if their penis changes who a woman is.
38:17 Speaker 00 Right, yeah, exactly.
38:19 Speaker 01 Like, it's, it's not just a relationship that, you know, may or may not have any effect on her well-being or her body or anything like that, but the notion that that penis somehow changes her state of being.
38:34 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:35 Speaker 01 Uh, just because it was the first is, uh, is the height of arrogance and pride.
38:40 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:41 Speaker 01 And stupidity.
38:42 Speaker 00 I just think, you know, and I think that one of the interesting things is that I think most, basically all Christians in a modern context would very, would be very happy to say that they, that they disavow the idea of marriage is one man purchasing a woman from another man. Like, that, I, I, I think we're all on board with that. So.
39:12 Speaker 01 Hopefully, yeah. I, I think there are some people in Davis County who probably are not quite there yet.
39:18 Speaker 00 Okay, fair enough. Uh, but for the most part, if you present it as, as that, uh, most Christians would reject that. So congratulations, you're already on board with rejecting a biblical sense of marriage.
39:33 Speaker 01 Yes.
39:35 Speaker 00 So why it is such a stretch for them to realize that like, maybe they can take, take a few steps further along that path and realize that all of the ways that ancient marriage worked aren't what we want and aren't relevant in a modern context.
39:56 Speaker 01 Yeah.
39:56 Speaker 00 You know, most, I think also most Christians would not be okay with, you know, polygamy and concubines. I think most Christians would be very much against that.
40:08 Speaker 01 And yeah, probably not big on eunuchs either.
40:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
40:12 Speaker 01 Or, or what Paul's take was, you should all be celibate anyway.
40:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
40:17 Speaker 01 And, um, you know, if you can't hack celibacy and go ahead and get married, have your occasional prophylactic, passionless sex.
40:26 Speaker 00 Right.
40:26 Speaker 01 And, uh, but otherwise you should be living as if you were not married.
40:31 Speaker 00 Very John, John Harvey Kellogg view of the world.
40:35 Speaker 01 Yeah. And which, and this fits with kind of the Greco-Roman Jewish notion, particularly among the intelligentsia, the people who are more informed about Greek philosophy, where sexual desire was one of the baser urges of the flesh, where, um, there, there are some, uh, texts where it's like, not only can you not have sex with your wife during menstruation, but once she's past menopause, it's over. And even with, and it, it can only be done with the expressed intent of procreation. And even then, according to some authors, you're not supposed to enjoy it.
41:15 Speaker 01 So there are some who are like, eh, post-menopausal, you know, we're not gonna, we're not gonna get hung up on that.
41:23 Speaker 00 Right.
41:23 Speaker 01 And, um, you know, you can enjoy it, but only if it is for the, with the expressed intent of procreation. And, you know, that's the, that's the world into which Paul shows up and goes, boy, have I got a new approach for you guys. The world's about to end. So nobody change their life circumstances unless you can't hack celibacy. Cause the last thing we want is for you to engage in any sexual immoral activity because your, your urges got too pent up.
41:53 Speaker 00 Too urgey.
41:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:56 Speaker 00 Yeah.
41:56 Speaker 01 They got too urgent. So, but when we're talking about the passages that people retreat to, when they need to demonize folks who just have a different sexual orientation. When I first saw Mark's post, my initial idea was Sodom and Gomorrah. The more I look at it, the more I think, eh, it's probably intended to be hell.
42:24 Speaker 00 Right.
42:25 Speaker 01 Which is a related but a separate use of that imagery. But Sodom and Gomorrah is brought up an awful lot. And I have seen multiple appeals to Sodom and Gomorrah since yesterday, which is in our timeline, June 1st.
42:44 Speaker 00 Well, we're pushing it so that this week, so that this show comes out at the early in the month.
42:49 Speaker 01 So, yeah. But, so, and we've addressed this before on the podcast. It is the official position of the Data Over Dogma Podcast, that the story of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 is not a story or a lesson about the evils of homosexuality. It is not even about gay people. It is about the use of the threat of sexual assaults against other men as a manifestation of gross inhospitality. And there are a bunch of ways to demonstrate this. And including one that somebody, somebody pointed out earlier
43:31 Speaker 01 in a, in a video that was on TikTok. And there's another Bible scholar, Kevin Carnahan. Do you recognize that name?
43:39 Speaker 00 No.
43:41 Speaker 01 He's, he's another PhD who's, does wonderful work. But he was responding to this video and something that somebody was pointing out is that. They don't think Genesis 19, the main sin is, is the attempt to sexually assault angels because God was gonna destroy the city before the angels ever showed up. And you have, you have in, in chapter 18, uh, reference to, uh, or is it chapter 18? Or is it, is it early in chapter 19? Uh, you have a reference to, um, cries coming up to God's ears.
44:19 Speaker 00 Hmm.
44:20 Speaker 01 I've gotta look for it. Um, but there are, there are cries that are coming up to God's ears, and this is before the angels show up. And so the idea is, well, obviously it wasn't just about the, the men of Sodom threatening the angels with sexual assault. However, it raises another question. If Sodom is so evil, and their main sin is a homosexual orientation, being attracted to other men and wanting to have sex with other men, where are the cries coming from?
44:50 Speaker 00 Right, right.
44:51 Speaker 01 It's not the women, because absolutely nothing in this story says a word about the women of Sodom and Gomorrah being spared.
45:02 Speaker 00 Hmm.
45:03 Speaker 01 And they are not even, really, and, and here's the bizarre part, they're not even really considered people.
45:08 Speaker 00 No, no.
45:10 Speaker 01 Because when God says... Go ahead.
45:12 Speaker 00 Well, I was gonna say, the, the story of Lot and his, you know, and how he allays the mob is by just chucking his daughters out to them. Like, that's-
45:25 Speaker 01 Or offering to, yeah.
45:26 Speaker 00 He, he, like, you can't dehumanize a person more than to be like, no, you can't, you can't mob and rape my new guests, my house guests, have these two daughters that I don't really care about.
45:40 Speaker 01 Yeah, they're virgins.
45:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, so that, yeah, that, it, it, it seems very much like- The, yeah, the opposite, that's the opposite of honoring their personhood.
45:52 Speaker 01 Yes, and the same thing happens in the parallel story in Judges 19.
45:57 Speaker 00 Right.
45:58 Speaker 01 Where we have the, the owner of the house says, I got a daughter. And the, and the Levite says, and I got my concubine. And the concubine is the one who ends up getting shoved out into the crowd. And then is sexually abused ultimately to her death. Ostensibly, the story doesn't make clear precisely when or how she died. But she was at death's doorstep, lying at the other person's doorstep. And there's a different, the reason there's a difference between these two stories is because in Genesis, those two daughters are needed for later in the story.
46:41 Speaker 01 Because they are going to become the ancestors of the Moabites and I believe the Ammonites. They have to be there, they have to survive in order to sire these two ethnic lines incestually with Lot. And so, some people will point to the fact that, oh, the men refused the women. Which shows they weren't attracted to women, which is entirely misguided. Because, and, and they even, the, the men of Sodom even say, we are going to treat, because they're, they're offended by this, and they say, we're going to treat you worse
47:22 Speaker 01 than we're gonna treat the other two, which is suggestive of a lack of consent.
47:28 Speaker 00 Right.
47:29 Speaker 01 So this is primarily about sexual assault. And the only reason that the women do not end up getting sexually assaulted is because the author needs them for later in the story. In Judges 19, she is not spared. They, they do sexually assault her, which shows it is about power. It is about shaming, it is about asserting dominance.
47:51 Speaker 00 It's about violence.
47:52 Speaker 01 It's about violence, it's not about sexual attraction.
47:59 Speaker 01 So Dan, you've heard me talk ad nauseam about the fact that we've got construction going on at the house.
48:05 Speaker 00 I've heard the construction.
48:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, you heard the construction too. We're finishing our basement. We're actually adding on to the house. We're doing some stuff in the backyard. And I was thinking the other day about how nice it was to be able to do this because we, I wanted to get a new car and I wanted to do these, these improvements to the house, but we had to pay off our old car and that took actual planning, which you know, I hate. And so I really had to shift my thinking quite a bit when it came to my finances. And we had to set dates and we had to create a budget and it was so satisfying to actually make a plan.
48:48 Speaker 01 And then even though it took some discipline and there were some bumps in the road, we actually succeeded and we're able to pay off a car, got a brand new car. And it feels so relieving to know that if we actually set these goals and plan for them and stick to them, it goes from, oh, this will never end, actually feeling like you have control over stuff. And that has made a huge difference to me and to my family.
49:15 Speaker 00 Well, you know, you can try to do that on your own or you can use a phenomenally useful tool like Monarch to do something like that. Monarch is set up exactly for that kind of financial planning. They have things like their debt pay down simulator and visualizer to help you track your progress, which I, this is brilliant. The fact of the matter is that all of these concepts are so ethereal, it's hard to sort of wrap your head around it a lot of the time. And with this visualizer, you can see how that debt is going to go down. You can actually simulate your freedom occurring in front of your very eyes. And I think that is an amazing thing.
50:00 Speaker 00 Monarch has other things like. You can watch your timeline move. You can play out the options. You can choose the fastest way to alleviate your debt. Most apps just tell you what you've spent and how much debt you're in. Not Monarch. Monarch even has an AI assistant that will tell you, help you with anything to do with your finances. You can ask, how much did I spend on travel last summer? Or can I afford the vacation that I want to do? And it'll walk you through it all. It's super easy. It's super useful. I love it.
50:33 Speaker 01 Write your own money story with Monarch. Use code DOGMA at monarch.com to get your first year of Monarch Core half off at just $50. That's 50% off your first year at monarch.com with code DOGMA.
50:48 Speaker 00 Well, and the other thing, and I just, I only realized this today as I was thinking about this for the, for the show, but I, one of the funny things to me about, you know, sort of hearkening to Sodom as, as your point of reference for why, why homosexuality is bad. Um, no homosexuality happens in that story.
51:11 Speaker 01 Yeah.
51:11 Speaker 00 It doesn't occur. Like the, there's a threat of it, but like, it doesn't actually happen.
51:18 Speaker 01 And, and just, and just threatening something is not really grounds for punishment. Like the, the logic of their legislative system, the logic of their jurisprudence would not have considered that a crime.
51:31 Speaker 00 Right. And yet the, the cities are destroyed. And you're right. Like the cities were set to be destroyed before all of that happened. So.
51:38 Speaker 01 Yes, we have Genesis 18, 20 and 21. Then Adam and I said, how great is the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah? And how very grave their sin, I must go down and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry that has come to me. And if not, I will know. And when we look at Ezekiel, we have a description of Sodom's sin as pride, an abundance of bread, prosperous ease, and she did not strengthen the hand of the needy. She was hottie and did abominable things. And, and the folks who want to center homosexuality in their understanding of that story are always like, oh, abominable things, that means homosexuality.
52:22 Speaker 00 Right.
52:23 Speaker 01 It could also mean eating shrimp.
52:25 Speaker 00 Right.
52:26 Speaker 01 It's the last thing that's listed, and it's not very specific, but threatening men with sexual assault would also fall under the category of abomination. So there's just, there are just no grounds for understanding the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah as being sexually attracted, men being sexually attracted to other men. That's
52:49 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't, I don't like
52:50 Speaker 01 an awful reading.
52:51 Speaker 00 If sort of the celebration of Pride Month culminated in roving gangs of gay men, like beating down doors to, to, you know, sexually assault people's house guests, then I would think you could make a better argument for there's, there's a, you know, there, there's some sort of analogous situation here. But what people seem to be protesting against is like, couple people just trying to live their lives in literally exactly the same way you live your life.
53:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
53:27 Speaker 00 Why, why are you so mad about that? Literally what they want to do is be boring people just like you in the suburbs, raising kids, you know, whatever, like just going to work and going back home again. What are you mad about?
53:44 Speaker 01 Yeah. And I love the Sesame Street, the inventor, the creators of Burt and Ernie were like, yeah, they're a gay couple. And somebody posted a, a photo, a still from Sesame Street where Burt and Ernie are just sitting in a living room in their, their lazy boys. On opposite ends of the room from each other quietly reading in the evening. And it was like, this is all they want. Why would you be mad at this? And then Sesame Street, yesterday, I believe, posted an image showing a bunch of furry Muppet arms. Outreached and grasping each other and the colors make the rainbow.
54:27 Speaker 01 And oh my gosh, the people who are like, keep all the sexualization out of this. It's like, they're what? They're not bringing up anything related to sexualization.
54:40 Speaker 00 Show me on the doll where you see sexualization happening.
54:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:44 Speaker 00 I do want to mention that like, there's a lot of other, there are a lot of, of passages that people, that people cite as being sort of against homosexuality.
54:59 Speaker 00 And then they use, and there are certain translations of the Bible that inflate this further. The New Living Translation, for example, has Leviticus 1822 and Leviticus 2013 say, "Do not practice homosexuality, comma, having sex with another man as with a woman. It is a detestable sin."
55:29 Speaker 00 I don't think that's how, I don't, I feel like that do not, I've seen other versions of that particular thing, and I don't remember it saying, "Do not practice homosexuality."
55:44 Speaker 01 And, and yeah, the, that word's not in there. That's not a word in Biblical Hebrew. And here's, and here's another consideration of this. Leviticus 18 and 20. Many scholars, many, many Pentateuchal scholars will suggest that Leviticus is actually in, in coming up with all of these, with its legislation, it's actually following the narrative of Genesis. And so it would be coming up to Genesis 19 when it lists these sexual sins.
56:15 Speaker 00 Okay.
56:15 Speaker 01 And so if Genesis 19 is really about threatening other men with sexual assault, then Leviticus's take on this would be a take on.
56:28 Speaker 01 Threatening men with sexual assault. It would be a kind of non-consensual relationship that is being reflected here. And this is, Leviticus 18 and 20 is H, the holiness code, which is post-exilic. It's relatively late. This is a time period when sexual ethics are undergoing a transition as they're being used to more clearly delineate the Judaite ethnic identity from the nations that are around them and now are much closer to them. And so this is where we have concerns for intermarriage with others. This is where the idol polemic comes into play.
57:11 Speaker 01 So the sexual ethic is now suddenly a lot more concerned about purity, ethnic purity, as well as the purity of the land. Because what happens in Leviticus 18 and Leviticus 20, if you do any of these sexual sins, it generates a metaphysical contamination that will get out on the land and pollute the land, and the land can only tolerate so much before it must vomit you out. So this is about a ritual purity of the land. And the idea is that whatever is being discussed in Leviticus 18, 20 is going to generate that metaphysical impurity. And so, yeah, practicing homosexuality is not in view. Right.
57:54 Speaker 01 Just, that's a mistranslation, pure and simple. And even if you just look at the language of the text, it talks about, it probably is prohibiting a man from taking the assertive role in an act of male same-sex intercourse. In other words, it's only prohibiting one of the actors in that act, because it probably understands the other actor to not be consenting. Right. It probably does not account for the notion that anyone would seek out the receptive role. And people will say, well, if you go to Leviticus 20, both of them are condemned to death. And that is because in all of these inappropriate sexual acts...
58:40 Speaker 01 Both parties are condemned to death, whether consent is presupposed or not, even in the case of bestiality.
58:47 Speaker 00 Right.
58:48 Speaker 01 Where the prohibition is on having sex with an animal, the animal is also put to death.
58:54 Speaker 00 Yeah, they were pretty, they were pretty, they were pretty happy with the, the death penalty. They were pretty, capital punishment was like their favorite, whoever wrote Leviticus.
59:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, and, and these were not people who had authority over anyone's life and death. And these laws were probably never actually enforced. But the fact that the animal is put to death is a clear indication that the idea is that this contamination is only purged through the death of both parties.
59:24 Speaker 00 Right.
59:24 Speaker 01 Without respect to consent or agency. Uh, and so, yeah, it's a lot more complex than, than people want to understand. Um, it's, it's simply not, it does not have an understanding of a homosexual orientation.
59:42 Speaker 00 And, and I, I want to push a little bit on something.
59:46 Speaker 01 Okay.
59:48 Speaker 00 You know, when you, I only learned just now when you said it, that, uh, this, I, this idea that Leviticus might be following Genesis in its, in its narrative. Uh, and, and that this was a reference to that. And if the, if Leviticus 18 and 20 are a reference to this Sodom thing, you said, you, you assumed that the author of Leviticus understood, uh, the Genesis, understood the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the way that we are understanding it now.
1:00:17 Speaker 01 Yes, yes.
1:00:18 Speaker 00 Um, but I, I wonder if they could have had an alternate, if they could have, if whoever wrote this may have understood it differently and may have understood it as the, the crime was the sex with a man as with a woman. I don't actually care. I mean, I know that it's being used to clobber people. And I think that the, I think that the more salient point is. Look at what the thing is, you know, the sexual ethics of two and a half thousand years ago
1:00:55 Speaker 00 aren't necessarily going to be applicable to now. And again, I, you know, I retreat to the idea that like you've already, if you've already rejected a lot of these concepts of, of, of sexual ethics that are biblical, because the Bible has some horrific sexual ethics. And I think we can all agree on that. And if you're okay with saying the Bible's sexual ethics are not always great, then why are you holding so tightly? Even if, even if what Leviticus is saying is very specifically just having sex, a man having sex with another man is a capital offense. That doesn't have to apply now.
1:01:39 Speaker 01 No.
1:01:39 Speaker 00 And I don't see why everybody thinks that like they can reject one thing, but it would be absurd to reject another.
1:01:46 Speaker 01 And, and even if you do, even if you do understand Leviticus 1822 and Leviticus 2013 to be, to be doing that. And even if you do think it should be authoritative, it's only about the land of Israel and the house of Israel. So even if you take it all seriously and say, this is still the law of the land, it is quite explicitly about the land of Israel and the people of Israel. So if you're not either living in the land of Israel as it was constituted anciently, or a member of the house of Israel, then it doesn't apply to you even by its own standards, terms, I almost said sterms, because I couldn't decide on a word.
1:02:31 Speaker 01 I just got too quickly to that decision.
1:02:34 Speaker 00 I like that.
1:02:36 Speaker 01 So yeah, it's Sturm's. Um, and, uh, and so you have no choice but to retreat to the New Testament, at which point you're again trying to appeal awkwardly, blithely, ignorantly, to an outdated sexual ethic that is based on factually incorrect information. According to Paul in Romans 1, same-sex intercourse is something that happens only among the Gentiles, and only because they have failed so miserably to adequately worship God, that God is removing the, the governor, the natural limits that God places on sexual desire, so that they run amok, resulting in same-sex intercourse.
1:03:20 Speaker 01 And so, according to Paul, if you are appropriately worshiping God, then that doesn't happen. That's not true. Paul appeals to nature to talk about why this is all wrong. That's not true. Yeah. Uh, Paul's sexual ethic is just as outdated, outmoded, irrelevant to today. Uh, and so, and even if you do decide it's authoritative, what about the celibacy thing? Right. We've, we've scratched that off the list because we don't like it anymore. What about the slavery thing? We've scratched that off the list because we don't like it anymore. Like, there's, you have to be so inconsistent with your hermeneutic and your standards,
1:04:05 Speaker 01 uh, to want to leverage the Bible as a rhetorical bludgeon to clobber LGBTQIA+ folks. And, and it's very clearly because it continues to function as an identity marker, and as a way for people to put their credibility and their piety on display. It's preying on the street corner, only in a way that results in other people dying. It's pride. Yes, it's pride. And so
1:04:35 Speaker 00 I think that's amazing. I feel like what we've come to is that Pride Month is a month for people, members of the LGBTQIA+ community to have pride, to raise themselves up in a land, you know, in a society that tries to push them down. And so their kind of pride, OED style, is a good, is a positive, good raising up pride.
1:05:10 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:11 Speaker 00 And Pride Month for people like Mark Driscoll are the times when they exhibit the most sinful kind of pride and just really hit it as hard as they possibly can.
1:05:22 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:23 Speaker 00 So it's Pride Month on both sides. It's just, it's just, Mark Driscoll, you're the one doing the bad kind of pride, not, not the Rainbow Coalition.
1:05:32 Speaker 01 Yes. Mark Driscoll, you need to grow the hell up.
1:05:37 Speaker 00 Boom. All right. Well, friends, thank you so much for listening to the show today. If you would like to become a part of helping to make the show go, and in so doing, get early access to an ad-free version of every episode, as well as potentially get the after-party, which is weekly bonus content that Dan and I do every single week. You can head on over to patreon.com/dataoverdogma. We really appreciate it when you do that. It's amazing. Thank you so much to all of our patrons. If you want to contact us, it's [email protected] . Thanks so much to Roger Goudy for editing the show, and we'll talk to you again next week.
1:06:19 Speaker 01 Bye, everybody.
1:06:24 Speaker 00 Data Over Dogma is a member of the Airwave Media Network. It is a production of Data Over Dogma Media LLC. Copyright 2025. All rights reserved.
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