Hiding God

This week we're talking about showing off your love for God, and whether that might not be a such great idea. And our example of not mentioning God comes straight from the Bible?? First, we're looking at the book of Esther. It's a story with all the twists and turns of a Disney animated movie (complete with cartoon villain), and about as much plausibility. It's a wild ride, and by the end someone's going to be killed on a fifty-cubit pole. But something important is missing... Then, should Christians proclaim their religiosity boldly and loudly out into the world, or should they keep it to themselves? Are big public displays effective means of spreading the gospel, or are they just a way to signal piety, while annoying everyone around you? Maybe that's the point? ---- For early access to an ad-free version of every episode of Data Over Dogma, exclusive content, and the opportunity to support our work, please consider becoming a monthly patron at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DataOverDogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow us on the various social media places: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/DataOverDogmaPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.twitter.com/data_over_dogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Have you ordered Dan McClellan's New York Times bestselling book ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Bible Says So⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ yet??? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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• 1:41Speaker 00

  It's a squishy little situation, but definitely don't sing on an airplane. I think, I think the thesis-

• 1:47Speaker 01

  For the love of all that is good and holy.

• 1:49Speaker 00

  The thesis of this episode is just don't sing on an airplane, man.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00Speaker 00

  Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

• 2:02Speaker 01

  And I'm Dan Beecher.

• 2:03Speaker 00

  And this is Data Over Dogma, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

• 2:14Speaker 01

  Things are good. It's a, it's a dark day here in Salt Lake City as we look out over temperature inversion, which if you don't know what that is, you can look it up.

• 2:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, lucky you.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, we, we live in Beijing now, uh, when it comes to air pollution. So that's always fun.

• 2:34Speaker 00

  I think somebody said South Jordan, which is the city right northeast-ish of me, uh, had like the worst air quality in the country last week. And then like Davis County, Salt Lake City sometimes has among the worst air quality in the world.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:50Speaker 00

  So yeah, it's an issue.

• 2:52Speaker 01

  So smoke them if you got them, I guess. I don't know.

• 2:55Speaker 00

  You don't have a choice.

• 2:56Speaker 01

  We're all, yeah, exactly. Uh, how are you?

• 2:59Speaker 00

  Uh, I'm doing all right. I'm, uh, I'm about ready to, um, to dart off to sunny San Diego to spend a few days away from the inversion with my, with my kids who have a four day weekend.

• 3:12Speaker 01

  You lucky son of a gun.

• 3:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, so there's no, uh, no Comic Con to be had, but, uh, there's still plenty of sun, sand and, uh, surf, so.

• 3:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, between Comic Con and, uh, and whenever the SBL meeting happens there in San Diego for you, uh, this'll be a trip where you don't have to hover around that convention center.

• 3:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, probably won't even walk by it. I mean, well, you know what? I, I like to go on runs in the morning and I run down by the, uh, along the boardwalk past the, the aircraft carrier and all that kind of stuff. So I will probably end up running past the convention center. But yeah, I, I will not, uh, I'll just look wistfully at it and, uh, and, and wish there were comic book nerds, uh, descending upon the, or, or Bible nerds.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  Nerds, nerds of one stripe or another.

• 4:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  I'm sure that the crossover is, is, is, is not just you. The Venn diagram includes more than just Dan McClellan. Uh, anyway, coming up on today's show, we got a couple of fun ones for you. Uh, I, I didn't plan our first one very well, cause uh, I, I thought I maybe should save it for Purim, uh, but no, we're gonna talk about, or do a chapter and verse about the book of Esther. Which is pretty interesting. I had never read Esther and now I have. Uh, and then in the second half of the show, we're gonna talk about public displays of religiosity and, uh, and Jesus and whether, uh,

• 4:46Speaker 01

  that would have been kosher for, uh, for, you know, according to the New Testament. Pros and cons.

• 4:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Gonna do a little point, counterpoint.

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 4:58Speaker 00

  And, uh, I'll be Jane.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  You're the ignorant, uh, person.

• 5:05Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. Person is exactly what, uh, what Chevy Chase said.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  What Dan Aykroyd.

• 5:10Speaker 00

  Dan Aykroyd, oh my gosh, did I say Chevy Chase?

• 5:12Speaker 01

  Yes, indeed.

• 5:13Speaker 00

  Sorry, I gotta wash my mouth out with soap now.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Especially if Joel McHale is on. Alright.

• 5:19Speaker 00

  He played Chevy Chase in a movie.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Let's move on and, uh, and we'll do our chapter and verse.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  And I suppose this week's chapter and verse is like, uh, a whole book. It's, it's, it's many chapters and many verses.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Ten chapters.

• 5:41Speaker 00

  Or nine chapters and a, and a bit.

• 5:43Speaker 01

  And a bit.

• 5:43Speaker 00

  With a remainder of three.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Epilogue.

• 5:47Speaker 00

  Yes. Depending on which version you're looking at, and we'll get to that down the road a piece.

• 5:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you, you, you hinted at that to me before we, just before we went on and I was like, wait, what? What?

• 6:00Speaker 00

  What?

• 6:01Speaker 01

  So, uh, so yeah, um, we, should we just start with? With what? With the story? The basic story of Esther?

• 6:10Speaker 00

  Well, let's introduce it, where it comes from and all that kind of stuff, where it sits in the biblical canon.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:18Speaker 00

  It's... The setting is the reign of a Persian king. They call Ahasuetes in the text. This is probably, it's supposed to be Xerxes the first. And so the setting is between like 485 to 465 BCE, somewhere in there. So we're in the early part of the 5th century BCE. This is post-exile. We're in Persia, so we're not back in Judea, far away on Judea's plain, where there's apparently a green hill. But we're in Persia and it is during the reign of Persian Empire.

• 7:00Speaker 00

  It was probably written a bit after. Well, it's explicitly written a bit after because the story is like, "So this took place in the days of Xerxes."

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 7:10Speaker 00

  Which means it's no longer the days of Xerxes.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Right, yeah. It continually says like, "This is in the 12th month of this reign," or this is, you know, whatever.

• 7:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And it's probably written in the, oh, I don't know, maybe late 400s, early 300s BCE, before the whole, we're, you know, subject to a larger empire starts to become a lot more deadly, which is what happens in the Greco-Roman period with the Hellenistic rulers and the Seleucids and the Ptolemies and all of those folks. And so it has a kind of odd approach to how Jewish folks need to relate to the larger empire, and we'll talk a little bit more about that.

• 8:00Speaker 00

  But we have a Hebrew version and a Greek version. And the Greek version is the Septuagint version, so it's a Greek translation. And it's significantly, not significantly, it's 107 verses longer than the Hebrew. And one of the most famous things about the Book of Esther is what it is lacking, which is what?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  It doesn't have God in it.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  No references whatsoever to God until you get to the Greek version.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Interesting.

• 8:29Speaker 00

  So yeah, they add, they add references to God in the Greek version. But in the Hebrew version, there are no references to God. Now, I think most scholars would say that the text is kind of expecting you to find God in the, in the background. The readership is, you know, if you're Jewish, obviously you're like, where is God in this? Okay, God is orchestrating things behind the scenes. So there's probably a degree of, um, a degree to which the author is kind of intentionally doing this as a rhetorical way of saying, you know, we, we find God in the events that happen around us and not necessarily, and you know, bam, in your face, kind of ways

• 9:11Speaker 00

  that other texts in the Bible represent God's interactions with humanity.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  I mean, I can, what I can see, because having read it just recently, I, I did not see any, even a wink or a nudge, nudge towards, like, this feels like a very straightforward telling of a story. And, uh, and I know that like, you know, the, the, the Jewish holiday of Purim is based on this and is all about this. And in their celebrating of Purim, they discuss the, uh, the Jewish people discuss God's hand in all of this and, and, and, uh, so yes, obviously that is part of the tradition.

• 9:54Speaker 01

  But it is surprising how many opportunities there were to obviously state overtly that God was a part of this. And, uh, and that's just not there.

• 10:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. And here, and I'm, and I'm going to flip the tables a little bit. So God is not in.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  With, with, uh, you know, with, uh, apologies to Monty Mader, who's

• 10:19Speaker 00

  Oh, that.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  Whole podcast is flipping tables.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Yes, uh, I thought you were going to say with apologies to Jesus. Uh, but I guess I, I would have to said overturn tables, but anyway, um, God does not appear in Esther. Guess where Esther does not appear? Did you find this out?

• 10:37Speaker 01

  No, no.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  At all? The Dead Sea Scrolls.

• 10:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 10:41Speaker 00

  You have fragments of every single text from the Hebrew Bible and then some among the Dead Sea Scrolls, except for Megillot Esther. It is just, or Megillot Esther, excuse me. It is just not there. Now, there's a possibility that some scholars would say, well, it probably would have been a part of the, a scroll containing other books. So we can't say that they definitely were like, we don't do Esther here. But, but there is no, there isn't a hint of Esther anywhere in the Dead Sea Scrolls. And, and one of the funniest things that I've, that I recall related to the, the book of Esther is there was a, there's a website called theTorah.com,

• 11:24Speaker 00

  which does a lot of fun, public scholarship type articles. In fact, I've published one with theTorah.com. But several years ago, I want to say 2018 or something like that. They published an article saying newly deciphered Qumran scroll, scroll revealed to be Megillot Esther. And it created a lot of buzz.

• 11:45Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 11:46Speaker 00

  Until people remembered what day it was.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Oh no, it was in April.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  It was an April Fool's joke.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh.

• 11:54Speaker 00

  Yes. And then the, like the, the subtitle is the discovery upends decades of research addressing the question of why the book of Esther is missing from Qumran. And yeah, there, there's some, it's a funny little story. But, but yeah, I remember when that happened.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Why do scholars think it's missing from Qumran? That seems really important.

• 12:19Speaker 00

  Well, the, it's a short book, one. And when you think about it, if we take the Hebrew Bible as a whole, only about 20% of the actual text of the Hebrew Bible is preserved in the scrolls.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 12:37Speaker 00

  We, you know, like the, the Great Isaiah scroll is one of the only ones where we have every last verse. And that's a pretty, that's a pretty amazing preservation event there. And so just by the numbers.

• 12:53Speaker 00

  It's such a tiny, tiny portion of the entire text of the Hebrew Bible that it's not a huge surprise. Uh, but some, some scholars think maybe it's because it doesn't mention God. Maybe they were like, ew, not you. Um, cause.

• 13:05Speaker 01

  Or just didn't include it among the holy texts and just thought it was an interesting story that wasn't. Like the, the, that didn't need to be, or some.

• 13:17Speaker 00

  Preserved as scripture.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  As scripture, yeah.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  That, that's a possibility. There's, there's also the argument that, uh, the, the folks who occupied Qumran were kind of separatists. Um, and didn't like the, uh, they didn't like the, the temple authority, the folks who were running the temple. They thought they were corrupt and, and illegitimate. Uh, and they also didn't like folks who got along with the powers that, that be it or were. Um, and so maybe the, the fact that it kind of is about cooperation and, and being nice to, uh, imperial, um, overlords. Maybe that turned them off too. There, there are a lot of theories, some make better sense than others, but, but the reality is that we don't know.

• 14:04Speaker 00

  We don't even know if, if it is just an accident of preservation.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:08Speaker 00

  Um, but, but yeah, that I think that is an interesting thing to note, uh, about the book of Esther. Um, the two main characters in the book of Esther, Esther and Morikai. Scholars suggest it's likely that their names are actually based on Ishtar and Marduk.

• 14:26Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Yeah, that they are, um, have filtered down from Akkadian, probably into Aramaic, uh, and then into Hebrew.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  So are you saying that the characters are based on that or just the names are based on that?

• 14:42Speaker 00

  Just the names are based on that.

• 14:44Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  Cause they're, they're set in Persia. Uh, that would have been around where, um, uh, those deities would have been significant. And so, uh, they just give those, the characters, names that are based on, on that culture. Or at least the culture that pre-existed in the Persian Empire.

• 15:02Speaker 01

  Right. So, so possibly what we're saying, what, what you're saying, if I can just.

• 15:07Speaker 01

  Wrap my head around it. Is it like whoever the author of Esther was needed Persian sounding names and just went to the only deities that they could think of, the only Persian names that they could think of and were like, ah, okay, Ishtar will call Esther.

• 15:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, something like that, something like that. And um,

• 15:26Speaker 01

  Because uh, this is not thought to be a historical story.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. This is, this is not historical. This is uh, these are, these are kind of like court tales.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  Uh, and, and when you read it, that's kind of the flavor it has. Like it sounds a lot like some of the things from Daniel. It sounds a lot like some of the apocryphal stuff that we've read. There's always somebody who, who overhears some kind of plot and then has to foil the, the enemies and all that kind of stuff.

• 15:58Speaker 01

  And it's so overblown. It's, it's such a huge thing. It's never like, it's not like some like minor thing like, oh, those two guys or it's like all of the everybody.

• 16:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And, and it's always, it's always some uh, some middle management dude who wants to, who's plotting to get rid of, of the Jewish people as a whole and stuff like that. Like this has, this has that kind of uh, that flavor. And yeah, these are just non, non historical stories.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  It's, it's 100% Jafar.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, it straight up is. Um, and we start with, uh, we start with the king who is uh, gets annoyed with his wife. One of them anyway, the main wife.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:47Speaker 00

  Uh, and institutes basically a, a Persia's Got Talent, uh, to see who's, who's going to win the hand of the king.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, he gets annoyed with her because I, yeah, I got hung up on it. I was, I had to look it up because. She won't come in in her crown and be sort of paraded around in front of everybody.

• 17:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, something like that.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  He thinks she's real pretty. And I I kept reading it going, did I miss something? Is she supposed to parade around naked? Or why is she refusing this? But she refuses it.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  And he hates her for it.

• 17:23Speaker 00

  Well, she's she's like Leslie Gore. And if you don't know who Leslie Gore is, what kind of childhood did you have? You don't own me. I'm not just one of your many toys.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  Right. Which is which is a misnomer when you're talking to the king, I feel like, when you are the wife of the king.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, but she does say, but when we're and when we go out, don't put me on display.

• 17:45Speaker 01

  Right.

• 17:46Speaker 00

  So, yeah, she Leslie Gore's the king, and he gets he's highly offended by this. And so.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  She is gone, as you say.

• 17:56Speaker 00

  Vashti is is out.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it's time. It's time to find a new hot lady.

• 18:04Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 18:04Speaker 01

  And one of the hottest, or perhaps the hottest, happens to be the not daughter of Mordecai.

• 18:13Speaker 00

  New.

• 18:14Speaker 01

  There's such a weird detail. Mordecai's cousin, who he's raising because her parents both died. Okay, I guess you gotta you gotta paint a picture. You gotta.

• 18:27Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, and you gotta have these kinds of things. Like, think of every Disney movie you've ever seen. There's always like Frozen, the two parents go off and die or are supposed to be dead or something like that. And the sister's got to raise the other. So it's it's it's just that that genre. And there's no evil stepmother.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, so you so there's, yeah. So you've got Mordecai is clearly, though, though her cousin clearly older. She is a young and exceptionally hot person. And is taken to the king, the king, like what he see. And they're off to the races.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  She's she is now head. She's now crowned the queen, not just not just one of the one of the. Cadre of of women, but crowned the queen specifically.

• 19:21Speaker 00

  Not just in the harem, but she is she's the new queen. And then, uh, chapter two, verse 18, then the king gave a great banquet to all of his officials and ministers, Esther's banquet. He also granted a holiday to the provinces and gave gifts with royal liberality. So, yeah, this is another feature of a lot of these stories where where the king always is kind of an, uh, just always kind of superlatively demeanored. It's always like, or, oh, everybody gets gifts.

• 19:55Speaker 01

  And he does that constantly throughout this. He like, if he likes someone, he's like, hey, ask for something. I'll give you anything up to half of my kingdom.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  Which, yeah, we've heard before.

• 20:07Speaker 01

  Constantly. Yeah, exactly.

• 20:09Speaker 00

  And and just, um, you know, apropos of nothing, Mordecai is just like, that's cool. Wait a minute, I overhear something.

• 20:18Speaker 01

  Oh, and we should, we should say that, uh, early on, Mordecai told Esther, ixnei on the uje, uh, do not let them know that you're a Jew because we're not, we're not, uh, I guess we're not that popular. I don't know what it is.

• 20:33Speaker 00

  Evidently not, because.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  He does, yeah, he doesn't present, it doesn't present a real, uh, open reason why. Just don't tell, don't talk about that part.

• 20:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  That that we're Jewish.

• 20:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Uh, so there's that.

• 20:52Speaker 00

  So Dan, you've heard me talk ad nauseam about the fact that we've got construction going on at the house.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  I've heard the construction.

• 20:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, you heard the construction too. Uh, we're, we're finishing our basement. We're actually adding on to the house. We're, we're, um, doing some stuff in the backyard. And I was thinking the other day about how nice it was to be able to do this because we, I wanted to get a new car and I wanted to do these, these improvements to the house, but we had to pay off our, our old car and that took actual planning, which you know I hate. Um, and so. I really had to shift my thinking quite a bit when it came to my finances and we had to set dates and we had to create a budget and it was so satisfying to actually make a plan. And then even though it took some discipline and there were some bumps in

• 21:44Speaker 00

  the road, we actually succeeded and were able to pay off a car, got a brand new car. And it feels so relieving to know that if we actually set these goals and plan for them and stick to them, it goes from, oh, this will never end, actually feeling like you have control over stuff. And that has made a huge difference to me and to my family.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Well, you know, you can try to do that on your own, or you can use a phenomenally useful tool like Monarch to do something like that. Monarch is set up exactly for that kind of financial planning. They have things like their debt pay down simulator and visualizer to help you track your progress, which I, this is brilliant. The fact of the matter is that all of these concepts are so ethereal, it's hard to sort of wrap your head around it a lot of the time. And with this visualizer, you can see how that debt is going to go down. You can actually simulate your freedom occurring in front

• 22:49Speaker 01

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• 23:25Speaker 00

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• 24:11Speaker 00

  And then he's, uh, when the virgins were being gathered together, Mordecai was sitting at the king's gate. I don't know if there's anything to read into that, but Esther had not revealed her kindred or her people as Mordecai had charged her. For Esther obeyed Mordecai, just as when she was brought up by him. And then in those days, while Mordecai was sitting at the king's gate, Big Tan or Big Fan. I don't know what, um, how we're supposed to pronounce. I didn't look at the Hebrew.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Now gonna have to name a character in something big tan.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  And Teresh, two of the king's eunuchs who guarded the threshold of the, uh, became angry and conspired to kill Ahasuetes. And so, uh, Mordecai hears this and he's like, oh, well, here's an opportunity to get into the good graces. Uh, so, uh, goes to tell Queen Esther about this plot to, uh,

• 25:01Speaker 01

  To kill the king.

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, uh, when the plot, if the affair was investigated and found to be so, both men were hung on the pole. Uh, it was recorded in the book of the annals in the presence of the king. So.

• 25:16Speaker 01

  Pins in both of those thoughts. Hanging on the pole and those annals because that's going to become, uh, It's so funny because as you're reading it, there are these little moments that you're like, "Okay, it was recorded in the book. Why did we have to say that?" Okay. I guess we'll just accept that and move on.

• 25:36Speaker 00

  Well, and this is part of the early historical texts. Like you've got in Samuel and Kings, you've got these references. "Is this not written in the, in the book of, of Deuteronomy?" And stuff like this. So, although they didn't say Deuteronomy. And then we have the introduction of another character, Haman, who is in Agagite, which is supposed-

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Gesundheit.

• 26:05Speaker 00

  Which is from, basically is a descendant of the Canaanites.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  Okay. Oh, of course, of course.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  We have to vilify a Canaanite here.

• 26:17Speaker 00

  That old canard. Yeah, we're gonna trot that one out. So, so we've got our, you know, Ancient feud is born anew in this, this conflict between the descendants of the Judaheids and the descendants of the Canaanites. So-

• 26:35Speaker 01

  And this is our Jafar character. This guy is, is just a evil, ambitious to evil levels guy who, who also hates the Jews for no good reason. Other than his dad also hated the Jews.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  And this is another feature of how these stories work. The king is always like, "Man, I really like you. You're really cool. I also really like this guy over here who's gonna try to kill all of you guys. I don't know what to do about this, but I'm just gonna keep, I'm gonna lean into it where, in fact, we're gonna promote the evil guy." And, and he gets promoted. There's, I think he gets his own banquet or feast as well. But-

• 27:19Speaker 01

  There's a lot of banqueting in this book.

• 27:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, that's a big part of, of what they did back then, just because everybody had plenty of food, I guess.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  I guess. Or, or they didn't, and this was a way to show off extravagance or something.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so they, they plot, and in chapter three, Haman said to King Ahasuerus-

• 27:39Speaker 00

  There is a certain people scattered and separated among the peoples in all the provinces of your kingdom. Their laws are different from those of every other people and they do not keep the king's laws so that it is not appropriate for the king to tolerate them.

• 27:53Speaker 01

  Well, we should, sorry, I, one hates to interrupt, but we should also mention that, uh, that because you skipped a little moment, which is that everybody was bowing and, and showing obeisance to Haman. I've, and, and Mordecai didn't.

• 28:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. So.

• 28:11Speaker 01

  More, so, yeah.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  So, yeah, that could be the, the source of all this. Haman's like, I didn't, I didn't get a harumph out of that guy.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  That's right. Exactly.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  Yes. Um, and so he, uh, he plots to, uh, decide on a random day, months in the future by rolling some dice.

• 28:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 28:32Speaker 00

  Um, that, uh, they're going.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Lots, and that's, and the word for the lots is perim or per.

• 28:39Speaker 00

  Poor is the, the singular.

• 28:40Speaker 01

  Poor, right. And so that's, that's where the, the Jewish holiday gets its name.

• 28:45Speaker 00

  Yeah. Um, and they're going to, uh, basically slaughter him, commit genocide. We're just, there's, we got this ethnic group that, uh, you know, one of them looked at me sideways, didn't bow, and, uh, and now, uh, we're going to get rid of them all. And, uh, the king was like, cool.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. The king takes no convincing whatsoever. It is just instantly like, oh, you want to do that? Uh, here's my ring. Uh, go ahead and write letters on my behalf. Do whatever, do whatever you gotta do.

• 29:19Speaker 00

  Yeah. I trust you implicitly. So.

• 29:23Speaker 01

  Right.

• 29:24Speaker 00

  So they, uh, the king's secretaries were summoned 13th day of the first month and an edict, according to all that Haman commanded, was written to the king's satraps and to the governors over all the provinces and to the officials of all the peoples, every province in its own script and every people in its own language. And then you've got the text of that. Uh, and a copy was, uh, was to be proclaimed and couriers went quickly by order of the king and the decree was issued in the citadel of Souza, uh, which would be in, um, Anatolia.

• 29:58Speaker 01

  I don't even know what Anatolia is. You didn't narrow it down for me at all.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  But I just, I, half the time when I read these place names, I'm just, I just let them sort of wash over me. Because I don't know where anything is.

• 30:14Speaker 00

  No, I was wrong. That's not Anatolia. Woof. That was, I was, I was way off. What was I thinking? Anatolia for, no, it's, it's in the, the mountains that are just to the east of Mesopotamia. Which would be where Iran is, which would be where, where Persia is. Why the heck Anatolia? Somebody's gonna make a video about how I screwed that one up, but don't worry. I'm already aware that I screwed that one up.

• 30:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. They just made the video and then they came back and saw you correct yourself. No, dang it.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Post the video anyway. I, I'm.

• 30:48Speaker 01

  Might as well.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, cuz I did screw up. And, and now we got a problem. So Mordecai happens to learn about all of this. And, you know.

• 31:00Speaker 01

  Well, because, because the, the letters went out. Everybody knows about it now. Everybody, like, this is like, now, oh no. All of the Jews are, you know, six months from now or 12, 12, I think, I think 11 months from now or something. Cause it goes, it's in the 12th month and we're in the first month or whatever. Anyway. In a few months, we're all going to be murdered.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so Mordecai puts on the sackcloth and the ashes and goes up to the entrance of the king's gate. And, and it seems like Mordecai is just kind of a, uh, just kind of a loiterer. He's just hanging around in places. Yeah.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  It's his favorite place.

• 31:42Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I don't know if anybody knows who he is, apart from Haman, not liking that he didn't bow. But yeah, he just kind of loiter's around. And he gets a message to Esther that she's got a.

• 31:59Speaker 00

  Figure out a way to do something about this, but it's against the law to approach the, the king if you have not been summoned.

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  Um, so, so Esther's taken on an awful lot of risk.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, she, she makes sure, she says, hey, you, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take this risk, but you go home and fast and have everybody you know, fast for three days. And I, I'll have all of my people fast for three days, all of my servants and everything.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 01

  Uh, she doesn't mention that she's gonna fast, but I assume she does.

• 32:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:30Speaker 01

  And.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Or not.

• 32:33Speaker 00

  Three, three days is not, not too long, um, but yeah, see, and then there's the famous line, uh, I'll go to the king, though it is against the law, and if I perish, I perish. So she's, she's accepting her fate and, and something interesting, uh, you have, this is kind of a theme in, in, uh, literature from around this time period, like you, you, uh, you see it in the book of Daniel as well, where, uh, they're gonna get, uh, thrown into, uh, I can't remember if it's the, the furnace or the lion's den. But he's like, we, we know that God will save us, but if not, we're still not gonna do the thing.

• 33:13Speaker 01

  So be it.

• 33:14Speaker 00

  So, yeah, it's, it's kind of a, uh, we have faith, but we're prepared to, uh, to face our end because that's, it's more important to us.

• 33:24Speaker 01

  Was this, sorry, was this written around the same time as Daniel?

• 33:28Speaker 00

  Is that? Um, it's probably, it's probably written around the same time that the court tales parts of the book of Daniel is written, cause you've got, cause Daniel is, is, is these little court vignettes.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:43Speaker 00

  And then you've got the apocalyptic visions and, and things like that. And the apocalyptic visions are probably what's coming from around the time of the, you know, the middle of the second century BCE around Antioch, the fourth epiphanies. But the court tales probably are coming from a little earlier. If, uh, probably, some people say, yeah, it could be as early as the late sixth century BCE, maybe Persian period, some of these, um, some of these little stories.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  That are, that have close parallels to what's going on here. So, uh, and then we get Esther's banquet. So, uh, she comes in to the king and the king doesn't seem to be aware that there's a law prohibiting approaching him, or maybe he's like, it's fine.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  The king, the king knows, but he thinks she's hot and he accepts her coming in.

• 34:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's pretty privileged right there.

• 34:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, he does, he does the, uh, the scepter thing. He's got a golden scepter. She says earlier that like, if he points at her with his golden scepter, she's good to go.

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 34:49Speaker 01

  And so he does that. Yeah, he, he accepts her. She's good to go. So she comes in, taps his scepter. I think that's probably a euphemism, but, uh, and then, and.

• 35:02Speaker 00

  Touch it, I say.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  And then, uh, and then she's good. And he, and he's just pleased as punch that she's there. And he's just, he just says, hey, what do you want? I'll give you anything. What do you want?

• 35:14Speaker 00

  Just thinking about you.

• 35:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 35:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. And so, uh, we get this petition. If I've won the king's favor and if it pleases the king to grant my petition and fulfill my request, let the king and Haman come tomorrow to the banquet that I will prepare for them. And then I will do as the king has said. So the, the, uh, the trap has been set.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  Well, this is like, this is so funny because she, I myself am, am a very direct person. I didn't like, like when I say, when I have a thing I want to say, I just say it.

• 35:47Speaker 01

  Esther is the opposite of that. She, she knows what she wants from the king. He says, ask for anything and I'll give it to you. And she's like, how about this? Come to dinner and you bring your guy, come to dinner. We're all just going to have a nice sit down. Then he comes to dinner with Haman. They both come to dinner. They have the banquet. And again, the king is like, okay, anything you want, up to half my kingdom, whatever you want.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:17Speaker 01

  I'll give it to you.

• 36:18Speaker 00

  And she's like, I'm just, I'm just in a giving mood. I just.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  And, and her response to that is, you know what? Come to dinner again.

• 36:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:27Speaker 01

  Let's do another one.

• 36:28Speaker 00

  We're gonna.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Tomorrow.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  Gotta string this out. Yeah. Um, and each time counting on the king being in a giving mood.

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it just seems like you're pushing your luck at that point.

• 36:39Speaker 00

  And then you've got.

• 36:40Speaker 01

  Thing.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then you've got, Haman is like out strolling around, just like, I love being evil and sees Mordecai. And it says that Mordecai didn't tremble or anything before him. And he was like, that guy's not trembling. Like, oh, I'm gonna. Uh, and so once even more to, uh, to, uh, have Mordecai executed.

• 37:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, and this is interesting because what this is between the two feasts, the two banquets.

• 37:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:11Speaker 01

  Uh, they, and I die. I mean, I think it's clear that, that Haman doesn't know the relationship between Mordecai and Esther. So he, so Haman brings, is Haman on the night, you know, the night between the two things is just mad at Mordecai. And is like, you know what? We're gonna have him killed. We're just gonna do it.

• 37:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. And guy, he's not, he.

• 37:40Speaker 01

  He keeps going to his friends and being like, ah, I hate Mordecai. Yeah. And that, and, and his friends are all mean girls and they're all like, well, you know what? You should just have him killed. I think you really should.

• 37:51Speaker 00

  Yeah. I was, I was gonna compare it to, uh, to current events, uh, and be like, he's, uh, he's just so angry that somebody is not respecting his authority.

• 38:01Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:02Speaker 00

  With the, the deference that he thinks his authority merits. Um, and yeah, the, what happens in the middle is, is kind of a pivot point for the story. Cause you can actually see, you've got the king of Persia's greatness. You've got Haman elevated over and against Mordecai elevated. You've got a decree to, um, to kill all the Jewish folks. And then you've got a decree that allows them to defend themselves. And so it's kind of, um, two, um, opposite ends of the story converging on the centerpiece. Which is chapter six, which is where the king honors Mordecai. Um, he couldn't sleep and he wakes up and, and he's just like, hey.

• 38:47Speaker 00

  Bring me that book about all the cool stuff that happened. Read me, read me a story from, you know, from last month or whatever.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, just pick a random, anything. Maybe it involves a guy named Mordecai. I don't know.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  And he recalls, oh yeah, Mordecai. And this is like the, uh, the most well disposed king of all time. He's just like, you're, hey, what do you want? Can I make you happy?

• 39:18Speaker 01

  I mean, he says, hey, did we give that guy anything? That guy that saved my life? You remember when he saved my life and he, he told us about that plot against me? Did we ever give him anything or not?

• 39:29Speaker 00

  I'm, I thought we wrote that down to do something about that.

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Something like, okay.

• 39:34Speaker 00

  It's a good thing that I was, uh, that I woke up and decided to, to read some stuff.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. What should I give him? I can't decide what to give him. Who's out in the hall? Is there anybody out in the hall that can just decide what to give Mordecai? And Haman happens to be out there and so they bring Haman in and he says, what should I give to someone who's deserving of me? And Mordecai, and it literally, I love that there's a moment where it literally says, his inner dialogue, his inner monologue, or not Mordecai, sorry, Haman.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  Haman.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  It has Haman's inner monologue. He says, he thinks to himself, oh, he must be talking about me, so I will say what I think I should get.

• 40:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  And then he says, you know, bring out all of the best clothes that you used to wear and a horse with a crown on it and a mermaid and, uh, you know,

• 40:36Speaker 01

  platinum or an Amex black card or something and give all of that to this supposed guy.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 40:45Speaker 01

  And the king's like, great. Why don't you take all those things and give it to Mordecai? Which is a lovely bit of humiliation for him.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  You know, that guy who kind of loiter's around the, uh, the palace.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the, the guy, you'll find him out in front of, out of the gate. That's all he does these days.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  You can't miss him. If, if you hear the Bs, you've gone too far.

• 41:11Speaker 01

  I don't know what that means, but okay.

• 41:13Speaker 00

  It's from the, the office where Dwight's giving directions to get to like a farm or something. It's like, turn left when you hear the bees.

• 41:24Speaker 01

  Okay, so, uh, so Heyman not only doesn't get to kill Mordecai, but he has to present him with, yeah, with clothes, which.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  It's all, it's all reversal of fortune.

• 41:35Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 41:36Speaker 00

  He thinks he's getting this, but actually he's getting this. He plans this, but actually he gets uh, hoisted by his own petard, uh, provided petard means uh, impaling steak.

• 41:47Speaker 01

  Uh, right. And, and, and it is true because he had built a 50 cubit tall pole, uh, that he was going to, to kill Mordecai on.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  But then.

• 42:00Speaker 00

  Did you look up how long 50 cubits is? 75 feet.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:05Speaker 00

  It's very tall. Depending on the type of cubit. Um, but yeah, that's a, like what, this is a grotesque villain who's just like, I just want to see him sliding down a 75 foot tall pole because he's been, uh, he's been impaled.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  This is Joffrey Baratheon levels of evil.

• 42:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, this is Vlad the Impaler levels of, of, uh, of sickness.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  So, yeah, uh, so then the next night Esther, or the next day Esther has her second feast, her second banquet, uh, and Heyman and the king are there. And that's when she pulls the trigger and says, hey.

• 42:44Speaker 00

  Springs it on him. Yeah.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  This guy hates my people. Guess what? P S. I'm a, I'm a Jew. Uh, this guy hates all of us and wants us all dead. I prefer not, if you please.

• 42:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Who has, uh, who has again, once again, offered her everything up to half his kingdom.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  And, and apparently that is totally within the bounds of up to half my kingdom. Uh, because the king has zero problem. Just murdering the crap out of this guy.

• 43:19Speaker 00

  And yeah, he and but he asked, who is this? Who did this?

• 43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:23Speaker 00

  And she, uh, she levels the finger at Haman, this wicked Haman. And then Haman was terrified and the king rose from the feast in wrath and went into the palace garden. But Haman stayed to beg his life from Queen Esther, for he saw that the king had determined to destroy him. And then, uh, and, and he's basically, he seems to have just gone off to, uh, I don't know, just, uh, kind of vent for a while, need to blow off some steam.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  He went to his mad room.

• 43:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  And, uh, just sat there stewing for a little bit.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  Punch some pillows, broke some, um, some coffee cups. When he returned from the palace garden to the banquet hall, Haman had thrown himself on the couch where Esther was reclining. And the king said, will he even violate the queen in my presence in my own house? Um, so timing was bad.

• 44:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  For Haming, Haman, and as the words left the mouth of the king, they covered Haman's face. Then Harbonah, one of the eunuchs in attendance on the king said, look, the very pole that Haman has prepared for Mordecai, whose words saved the king, stands at Haman's house, 50 cubits high. And the king said, hang him on that. So they hung Haman on the pole that he had prepared for Mordecai. Then the anger of the king abated. So again, reversal of fortune.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  And then, uh, the king.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  But that doesn't solve the problem.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Well, no, no.

• 44:49Speaker 00

  Legislation that, uh, that had been written and passed and signed off on.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  Uh, and, and.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  And, and couriers had sent it to all of the hundreds, however many, uh, provinces in the land.

• 45:03Speaker 00

  Satrapies and everything, yes. Um, and so, but while he exercises all power, he does not exercise all power. Uh, because he cannot undo a decree of the king.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:16Speaker 00

  Um, which is kind of silly, but, um.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  What it wa- isn't that, isn't that what's in, uh, yeah, in Aladdin? Uh, at the end, he's like, well, am I the Sultan or am I the Sultan or something like that? And then decrees that from now on, the princess can marry whoever she wants. So he should logically have that authority. Um, but-

• 45:39Speaker 01

  By, by no less a standard than Disney's Aladdin. So, yeah, I mean, honestly.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  As, as long as that is historical. Um, but, uh, so they, they decide we're, we're gonna write up a, a contra, uh, uh, thing. Order, yes. That's what the, the word I was, uh, I was grasping for. Uh, which basically says that the Jewish people can defend themselves. Uh, which I didn't, I didn't think the earlier decree had said, by the way, Jewish folks are not allowed to, uh, to lift a finger.

• 46:14Speaker 01

  You just gotta sit and take it.

• 46:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:16Speaker 01

  But, uh, but apparently that was a very important bit of the decree. Uh, or, or it was important and not only it didn't just send a message to the Jews that they could defend themselves, but it also sent a message to all of the, uh, local magistrates and such, such traps and all of this sort of thing. That yes, the king is now not mad at the, at these people. And maybe it would be a good idea not to come too hard at them.

• 46:46Speaker 00

  Yes, we are now a pro Jewish, um, uh, empire.

• 46:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:52Speaker 00

  Uh, and so, yeah, choose your, uh, your position wisely. And then, uh, chapter nine narrates the destruction of the enemies of the Jews. So, uh, they, there are some people who decide, you know what? I'm gonna go for it anyway.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  I gotta do what I, what the decree told me to do.

• 47:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. Uh, we don't have an indication how, um, you know, if, if there were Hamans and Mordecai's in all the different satraps, where somebody was just like, I hate that guy. And then a courier shows up and it's like, guess what? We're gonna, we're, we're gonna let you kill all the Jewish people. And one guy's like, jackpot.

• 47:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:31Speaker 00

  That guy over there.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:33Speaker 00

  Um, and, uh, yeah, they are able to, uh, strike down all the enemies with the sword, slaughtering and destroying them and did as they pleased to those who hated them. Again, reversal of fortune. It was supposed to be everybody else slaughtering the people they hated, namely the Jewish folks. Instead, the Jewish folks get to slaughter all the people.

• 47:57Speaker 01

  Slaughtering of their own.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 47:59Speaker 01

  I mean, you're not going to walk away with no slaughter. That would be so boring. It'd be disappointing.

• 48:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, you would think that when the second, uh, decree came around, a lot of people are like, you know what, I'm just going to slow my roll.

• 48:11Speaker 01

  Let's just chill.

• 48:12Speaker 00

  I'm going to have a coke and a smile.

• 48:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:14Speaker 00

  I'm going to sit a few plays out and, you know, just not take part in maybe dying. Um, so.

• 48:22Speaker 01

  But no, they killed a whole bunch of people, uh, and, and the Jews win and Mordecai is now the right-hand man of the king and, uh, and gets to take over, uh, the bad guy's house. And, and yeah, so I love how immediately, because Mordecai is the one who sent out all of the letters that are like, here's the new decree, which is the Jews can defend themselves and everybody else should probably chill. And the king just hands him his ring. The king's just like, oh, you're the new guy today? Here, have my authority, have all of my authority. You're great.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  Yeah. And then they, they institute the feast of Purim.

• 49:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:05Speaker 00

  Which is a, a wonderful tradition. And, uh, there, there are those who suggest that the, this was a festival that had been celebrated for a while, probably has obscure origins or maybe, um, not so favorable origins. But this, this story may have been written to function as an etiology.

• 49:28Speaker 01

  I see.

• 49:29Speaker 00

  For the celebration of, of Purim.

• 49:32Speaker 01

  Can I just say why that makes a lot of sense to me?

• 49:35Speaker 00

  Why that makes a lot of sense to you?

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Because they named one of their holidays after gambling?

• 49:41Speaker 01

  And it seems to me that that it very much could have been just like, this is our day when we have a fun little gamble, everybody. And then somebody came along and was like, maybe that's not the best reason to have a holiday.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Well, and the, the dice, uh, literally it's lots and casting lots was a means of divination.

• 50:02Speaker 01

  Oh, right. Yeah.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  And so it is not unlikely, not out of the realm of plausibility, that this holiday originates in a divinatory tradition.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 00

  And so they were, maybe they were like, can we think of another reason we would be, hitting the craps, hitting the, uh, rolling dice, hitting the, uh, casting lots. Well, what if we had a story where the villain cast lots?

• 50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:33Speaker 00

  Um, and so maybe that's what's going on here.

• 50:37Speaker 01

  They ruined a perfectly good divination holiday, uh, and made it. But, uh, as it turns out, in my very, very brief, please forgive, uh, looking up of what happens at Purim, uh, it's, uh, it's Jewish Halloween and they all dress up in costumes and that sounds fun. So there you go. They're having a good time.

• 51:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was a good time. They read, uh, the Megalod Esther, the Scroll of Esther. You got gift exchanges. You got, uh, you've got donating to the poor. Um, I'm sure there's, there's good food involved. Um, that's, that's always involved.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Hopefully it's not bitter herbs, cause, uh, that's questionable, but yeah.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, no.

• 51:26Speaker 01

  You say always good food involved. Sometimes there's bad food involved.

• 51:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, I.

• 51:32Speaker 00

  Touche. But that's supposed to remind you of how bitter life in Egypt was so that you don't start dreaming about how nice things were when we were enslaved in Egypt.

• 51:45Speaker 01

  Yeah. But, uh, we gotta move on. We are so...

• 51:48Speaker 00

  Are we behind? Oh, jeez.

• 51:50Speaker 01

  We're running hot. We're running heavy here. So, there you go. That's Esther for you. That's your primer, uh, so that when, when you're, when March rolls around and it's Purim, you'll, you'll be, you'll be ready to rock and roll with your, with, with your Jewish friends. I, I know that I learned a lot from that. And, uh, no, no God. So fascinating in that, in that respect. So let's move on to our taking issue.

• 52:24Speaker 02

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• 53:23Speaker 04

  There's all this tech shit going on right now. We have facial recognition. We have our Ring cameras giving data to police. We have the Flock safety cameras. We have Amazon Echo and all these devices that are constantly listening to us and using our data for one purpose or another. Hey, we have a national security problem. When a company like Flock turns it into this organized system that law enforcement can access.

• 53:46Speaker 05

  To hear more on why you should rethink every safe camera you drive past, check out episode 1308 of the Jordan Harbinger Show.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  All right. So buckle up. Here's our taking issue and what we're taking issue with, or what I took issue with recently was someone ruining a flight for everybody else. Recently, there was a

• 54:08Speaker 00

  Too much Taco Bell. That'll, that'll ruin

• 54:11Speaker 01

  That's one way.

• 54:12Speaker 00

  A lot of people.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  I have a little more sympathy for that than for this. That's not a thing that they're choosing. That's not there. I mean, you know, you chose to go to Taco Bell. Don't do that before a flight. But in this case, what we're talking about is a young man who decided on the plane to get up with his guitar and sing, sing some praise music, favor

• 54:36Speaker 00

  Oh, boy.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  A captive crowd with his, with his favorite songs of Jesus. And that, in my mind, is what hell will feel like.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  If there is such a place, and you can refer to our episode on that if you want to.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:58Speaker 01

  But yeah, that's my idea of, it's certainly very few people's idea of an effective means of proselytizing. I will tell you that right.

• 55:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, it seems to be more a means of creating enemies. Than anything else.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  And if you see the videos of it, and you look at the faces of the

• 55:18Speaker 00

  Enemy, enemy, enemy.

• 55:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, they might as well just have like little things pop up above their head. I'm an enemy now.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's, but this kind of stuff happens on the reg.

• 55:31Speaker 01

  All the time and is very clearly encouraged by a lot of pastors, by a lot of, you know, worship leaders.

• 55:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:40Speaker 01

  So.

• 55:41Speaker 00

  It's, it seems to me to be part of this notion. And we talked about this when we had April LaJoy on. You'll recall she talked about growing up where, where they were expected to like preach to their servers when they're in a restaurant and try to get them to pray with them.

• 56:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  And, you know, they, so they could put a little notch in their belt. And so it seems to me that, that the idea is Is related to those kinds of costly signals, public displays of piety. Not so much because people think they're actually going to be effective at all, but just because for them, it crosses something off their personal checklist.

• 56:27Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, and you've talked about costly signaling as being a sort of, I would imagine actually a valuable part of the religious experience.

• 56:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, well, it's a valuable part of all kinds of social institutions and interactions and identities. You have to find ways to determine whether or not you can trust and get along with other people in your social group. And so, social identities just tend to kind of create these these means of signaling to each other. And this is, I think this is more credibility enhancing displays. So costly signaling, that's where you're willing to put on display, you're incurring of some kind of cost, whether it's time, money, physical effort, physical pain, even death.

• 57:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. There, I'm willing to do this in order to show the other member of the in-group that I'm willing to toe the line.

• 57:27Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see what you're saying. Yeah.

• 57:29Speaker 00

  But, and there are minimum expectations, but then you can ratchet up the cost in order to show them, I'm not just meeting the minimum expectation, I'm going well above and beyond. And a good example for my own faith community, our current president of the church, Russell M. Nelson, when he exceeded to-

• 57:51Speaker 01

  That is not your current president of the church.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  Did I? Oh, my gosh. Oh, gosh. Okay, our previous president of the church, Russell M. Nelson-

• 57:59Speaker 01

  Just barely passed away. It's understandable, but I just wanted to make sure that we got that correct.

• 58:03Speaker 00

  And yeah, thank you for being a better Mormon than I am.

• 58:09Speaker 00

  And, but-

• 58:12Speaker 00

  Yes, um, and he, when he became president of the church, one of the things he said was that the name Mormon, using that as a designator, as a name, as a nickname, was a victory for Satan.

• 58:25Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 58:25Speaker 00

  And so this became kind of a way to, to draw boundaries and to say, are you a good Mormon or a bad Mormon?

• 58:33Speaker 01

  And if you use that-

• 58:34Speaker 00

  Based on whether or not, yes.

• 58:35Speaker 01

  If you use that phrase, you're one of the bad ones.

• 58:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, if you use the word Mormon as a designator for yourself or for others, that's bad. And so to say Latter Day Saint, or to say the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, instead of the LDS Church or the Mormon Church, is a means to incur a syllabic cost.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:55Speaker 00

  Um, to put on display that you are willing to go out of your way to, uh, signal fidelity to this new expectation. And I've got a, got an edited volume that should be coming out later this year called Mormonism in Five Minutes with Equinox Press, uh, where we, we have a, a paper in there about this whole, um, what do you call the church thing and why? Uh, but it's from, it's from an academic perspective. Uh, as an academic, I reserve the right to use Mormon, uh, because I use it more broadly. But anyway, um, so that, that's an example of that. Uh, another example that we see an awful lot, I don't know if you've, you, certainly you've

• 59:36Speaker 00

  seen these examples of people who like have gone to jail because they were protesting outside of abortion clinics or something like that.

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Sure, sure, sure.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  And usually it's not just because they were protesting.

• 59:46Speaker 01

  No, no, they were doing something very bad.

• 59:48Speaker 00

  Yes, but when their in-group talks about them, it is, look what they were willing to do because of how much they care about the sanctity of human life.

• 1:00:00Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:00:00Speaker 00

  They are so committed to the cause that they're willing to go to, to jail. And, um, and that is another example of costly signaling. And, and yeah, this is just something that is natural to all social identities. But we do see some, some criticism of this in, uh, uh, that, that book, that, what is it called? The New Testament.

• 1:00:23Speaker 01

  Ah, yeah.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  From, from one of those, one of those lesser known characters, uh, that Jesus felt.

• 1:00:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, the, one of those hippie dippy, uh, woo woo, uh-

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Folks.

• 1:00:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does seem like there are, there are sufficient. This was part of like, what raised my eyebrow is that it seems like there are a lot of verses, especially when in the gospels and especially talking, you know, red letter verses, stuff that you have Jesus saying that, that are like, you know, Sermon on the Mount, they're criticizing the Pharisees for their outward shows, for their big, bold outward shows of their religiosity.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, chapter six has a couple of really good verses. "So whenever you give alms, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, so that they may be praised of others. Truly, I tell you, they have received their reward." I think this is actually phenomenally insightful, because it's pointing out, what is the point of doing that? It is so that you increase your access to power and resources, so you advance your standing in the social group. "Whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen of others. Truly, I tell you, they have received their reward.

• 1:01:57Speaker 00

  And whenever you fast, do not look somber like the hypocrites, for they mark their faces to show others that they are fasting. Truly, I tell you, they have received their reward." So, you've got a pretty clear, repeated multiple times condemnation of folks who put their piety on display in order to be seen of others and to be rewarded through the advancing their standing within the in-group.

• 1:02:27Speaker 00

  And I talked about this one time, when I was in...

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  When I was at Faram College in Virginia, in the presentation or the Q and A afterwards, I got a question about this. And then somebody stood up and they were like, so I'm not supposed to live my religion in public? And it's like, okay, so now we've got, we've, we've got two sides to this issue.

• 1:02:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:51Speaker 00

  What is the reason you're doing it? Are you doing it so that you can put on display to others that you're one of the good ones? Is that so that you can benefit yourself? Or are you doing it because you feel that this, you're setting a good example maybe for others? Or you're, you've got people in your immediate orbit? Your kids or something like that, you're trying to set a good example for? Or that's just the manifestation of your faith that you feel the need to do that kind of thing? I think there are pure motivations for doing that kind of thing.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  Well, and there's also the idea that is presented in elsewhere in the New Testament, that you're supposed to go forth and proclaim the gospel and, and you know, to every nation and every blah, blah, blah, and every airplane and every small, you know, tight enclosed space.

• 1:03:52Speaker 00

  That, that would be the, the Great Commission at the end of Matthew 28. That's where Jesus says to, to disciple all the nations.

• 1:04:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Speaker 00

  And, and yeah, that's, that's the other thing. Shouldn't I be trying to spread the gospel? And I think you can have, I think that the behavior is not always necessarily because somebody's a hypocrite. But I think they need to really seriously consider why they're doing things. Because that impulse to do that is not something that you reason yourself into. That impulse is intuitive, that's subconscious. And you may rationalize it any one of a number of different ways. And, and another example of how folks rationalize it. In James, chapter two, you've got where, where I think that James is directly disagreeing with Paul about the role of faith and works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  That says Abraham believed God and it was reckoned unto him as righteousness. And he was called the friend of God. You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. Now, what some people will do is they'll point to that. They'll go to verse 18, "But someone will say, 'You have faith and I have works. Show me your faith apart from works, and I by my works will show you my faith.'" And I think they put the proverbial cart before the horse by suggesting that the good works are the outcome of the actual faith. And they'll say that this is so everybody can tell who has actual faith. And I find this bizarre because it's like, I didn't think the gospel of Jesus was about

• 1:05:27Speaker 00

  proving to other members of the group that you have faith. Like, if that's what faith is for, to demonstrate your faith to another member of the in-group, that seems kind of peculiar. It seems like trying to get around the contradiction, or at least the disagreement about the role of faith and works, has generated this rationalization of faith as primarily a costly signal, as primarily a way to show others that you are part of the in-group. And I don't think the folks who appeal to that reading of what's going on in James have thought very hard about the relationship of that rationalization and the notion that,

• 1:06:12Speaker 00

  "Well, my good works are just to show other people that I have faith," and what Jesus condemns in Matthew, chapter 6.

• 1:06:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:20Speaker 00

  And, you know, there are nuances. This is all contextual, and I recognize that motivations can be very, very different. But at least think hard about this.

• 1:06:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:33Speaker 00

  Think hard about what is it that is promoting this? Because when you get up on a plane to piss off dozens of people because you want to put on display how much you love Jesus, I think the motivations are on one side of that spectrum of motivations.

• 1:06:52Speaker 01

  I mean, look, I don't claim to know what the motivation is of that young guy to do that. I believe probably that that was just, that that was also a very uncomfortable thing for him to do, and he clearly had a reason that he thought it was important, you know, that he was obeying a commandment, that he was doing something good for his religion by doing it. I just don't think he thought about, "Is it good?" Or did you just, you know, do you just think? Is there just sort of an argument that could be made that it's good? And I think, you know, you were talking about Matthew six.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  And that moment about the hypocrites praying in the streets and then the synagogues so that they may be seen by others. And, you know, I've, I've, I've put this out there and had people say, well, yeah, but that's just about what's in their hearts. That's about their, their disposition. And if they're doing it so that they can be seen by others, then that's bad. But if they're doing it for a good reason, like so that, so that it's, you know, inspiring to others, or so that it's blah, blah, blah, then maybe that's an okay thing. And I think that's an okay argument if you choose not to keep reading the next verse. Because the very next verse says, but whenever you pray,

• 1:08:20Speaker 01

  go into your room and shut the door and pray to your father who is in secret and your father who sees in secret will reward you.

• 1:08:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  There is a, there, there's a literal like next step, which, which is like, no, do this quietly and on your own.

• 1:08:41Speaker 00

  And, and I think the person who gets up to, to do that, I'm, I have no doubt that they were nervous about it. I mean, I have been a proselytizing missionary in another country where I had to go create a street display and stand in the, in the town square.

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  They made you do that?

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:58Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:08:59Speaker 00

  It was just one of the things we could do. And it was like, okay, I could go walk around knocking on doors or I could do this. And I was like, I'm going to do this this time. So I know, I know the feeling, but, but what it, what it so frequently does is it just ends up entrenching people in the identities they're already a part of.

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:17Speaker 00

  Cause the folks who are already conservative Christians are, are going to enjoy it and be like, yeah, preach. And then the people who are not are going to be like, this is why I don't like Christians. And so it really, you're, you're, you're just. Curating your standing for the in-group and, and, and kind of cementing the, the identity politics. And so

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  It's one of the things that I've always, uh, the, one of the objections I've always had to, you know, there are guys, for instance, just as an example, and I'm sure we've all seen them. If you're in the U S or, you know, probably the U K, other places, there are these guys who go to every religious event that isn't their thing, you know, they come to general conference of the Mormon church.

• 1:10:05Speaker 00

  And hold up the big signs.

• 1:10:06Speaker 01

  And they hold, hold up these big signs that are all about, you're a sinner if you do this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this, this. And it's, and I always want to ask them, do you think you're actually winning hearts here?

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  Do you think you're, that this, the, the, this approach is having any positive effect on anyone? Do you think anyone's changing their mind? Oh, I've seen your sign. I've seen you yelling at people as they walk past angrily and trying to rage bait everyone that as they move past you. Do you believe you have changed anyone's heart?

• 1:10:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:47Speaker 01

  Because if you haven't, and they obviously haven't ever at any of these events.

• 1:10:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:55Speaker 01

  Then clearly they're not actually doing any, then, then clearly what they're doing is not good. Like, I don't see how you could make the case.

• 1:11:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:04Speaker 01

  Other than, like you say, it's a costly signaling or it's a, you know, it's a, it, it, it makes them, you know, have whatever feel they're after, whatever.

• 1:11:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:14Speaker 01

  You know, I want to, I was going to say warm, fuzzy, but I don't know, dark, prickly that they want, uh, because they're clearly just there to antagonize. And, uh, and, and yeah, I, it, you know, I guess they can go back to their home church and talk about the evils of the world and how, how bad everybody but us is because they yell at me when I go out and all I'm trying to do is tell them how good Jesus is. So, so they're obviously bad.

• 1:11:47Speaker 00

  And that's a self fulfilling prophecy there.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:11:50Speaker 00

  And so.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  It seems designed to do just that.

• 1:11:53Speaker 00

  Yeah. So you don't know what a lot of people have going on in their own closets? How they're praying in secret and and how they live their religion. I get a lot of flack. Uh, people demand that I put on display my religiosity on my social media. Uh, channels all the time. And it's like, that's not what it's for. And you don't get to have access to my moments of piety because that's private. Because I think that is one, what, what, if you follow what Jesus says, at least in the Gospel of Matthew, and I, and I think you can find sentiments like this in several parts of the New Testament.

• 1:12:34Speaker 00

  Uh, I try not to do those things in order to be seen of others. I take that seriously. And, you know, now I'm, and just saying it is a way that I kind of signal to other people. Uh, you know, that look, I do, I do it right. Um, so it's hard to escape that kind of thing. What are the motivations for, uh, for doing that? Because even if you do have spent a lifetime doing that, and then you go, I want some recognition for doing it right. It's like suddenly you're, um, you're doing it for the wrong reason. So, um, yeah, that's a, it's a, it's a squishy little situation, but definitely don't sing on an airplane. I think, I think.

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  For the love of all that is good and holy.

• 1:13:17Speaker 00

  The thesis of this episode is just don't sing on an airplane, man.

• 1:13:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:13:24Speaker 00

  Sit down and watch your, your, the, the screen that is on the back of the seat in front of you, unless you're flying on an awful airline that requires you use your phone because they don't want to put screens on the back of the seats. Um, in which case just stare at your phone like a normal person, leave everybody else alone.

• 1:13:42Speaker 01

  Play some Candy Crush and, uh, and, and maybe, and heck, you could sit in your chair and pray. You could do that if you want to quietly to yourself, yeah, in your mind.

• 1:13:53Speaker 00

  Your own private little closet in your mind.

• 1:13:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:58Speaker 01

  It's just, yeah, I, I just think it's very interesting. I think I, I, I see current, especially conservative, especially evangelical, American Christianity, going in this direction of being loud and in your face and, and, and just a whole bunch of things that feel very counter to what I read when I read Jesus's message.

• 1:14:28Speaker 00

  Well, and, and I think a lot of the, the event, and, you know, there, there are a lot of people who think evangelical Christianity is growing significantly right now. And to the degree that's true, it is growing among those who treat it as a social institution.

• 1:14:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:14:45Speaker 00

  Precisely because those are the mechanisms of social institutions. They're, they're, they're living a social Christianity. And that's, uh, yeah, that it, and you know, that's not to say that's any more or less legitimate a Christianity. I mean, Christianity is a lot of different things. Um, and, uh, but.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  And nobody gets to define, uh, or what, what Christianity, what counts as good Christianity or bad Christianity or whatever.

• 1:15:16Speaker 00

  Don't, don't let me catch you defining, uh, Christianity, anybody out there, not just you, Dan, but.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  Oh, believe me, you've beaten it out of me. I, I don't believe in defining anything anymore.

• 1:15:26Speaker 00

  But, uh, but I think you can have, um, Christianity that is less harmful.

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:34Speaker 00

  And, uh, and I think once you, once you commit to a, a social Christianity, then the social aspect of it takes over. And, uh, and I think that leads to all kinds of, of uh, problems.

• 1:15:48Speaker 01

  And there's nothing good about alienating people. So.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  I don't think so.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Stop doing that. Stop, stop, don't, don't do a version of your religion that alienates other people and makes them feel uncomfortable and, and bad. That, that just seems silly.

• 1:16:05Speaker 00

  But unless it's about using the word Mormon, I don't want to hear anybody using the word Mormon. That's just. Yeah, we don't, we don't, we don't do that around here. You gotta, you gotta say it right. Which is ladder, ladder something.

• 1:16:21Speaker 01

  You're, you're, nobody's gonna take any advice for how to be a good Mormon from you, Dan. You didn't even know who the prophet was.

• 1:16:27Speaker 00

  When have I said, "Look to me as the example of how to be..." A, a, shoot. The only, there's a, I'm sure there's a word for it in English. I don't remember what it is, but there's so many times when I just wanna say sobresaliente, which is Spanish, and I can't think of a good English substitute for that, but exemplary, maybe. That's, that's a word. Yeah.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  All right. Well, I, I think that's good. We'll leave it there.

• 1:16:58Speaker 00

  Well, what if we just say, "We'll leave it there"?

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, right. Or we could just, one of the things we considered, we, we never got to it, but we considered calling this, this segment, "Nah, I'm good." Because singing on a plane, nah, I'm good.

• 1:17:15Speaker 00

  Nah, I'm good, yeah.

• 1:17:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can, you can leave that one. If you would like to become a part of making this show go, helping us to bring you good content every week.

• 1:17:25Speaker 00

  Keep the lights on. Do you know how much these colored lights cost?

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Almost nothing. Anyway, you can go over to patreon.com/dataoverdogma and be, and give a little bit. You can get early and ad-free access to every episode of the show, as well as access to our bonus content, the after-party every week, and the, the happy knowledge that you are making a difference in the world. Thanks so much to Roger Gowdy for editing, and thanks to all y'all for tuning in. We sure do appreciate you.

• 1:18:01Speaker 00

  Bye, everybody.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

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