Blessed Baruch!

This week, we're grabbing hold of the apocrypha with both hands and not letting go! Or is it deuterocanonical? I guess that depends on whose tradition you're looking at. Regardless, it's a weird book and there's a lot of interesting stuff to talk about. Was it written during the exile, as it claims? What insights does it give us into the mindset of the time? Who the heck is Baruch??? ---- For early access to an ad-free version of every episode of Data Over Dogma, exclusive content, and the opportunity to support our work, please consider becoming a monthly patron at: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.patreon.com/DataOverDogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Follow us on the various social media places: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.facebook.com/DataOverDogmaPod⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://www.twitter.com/data_over_dogma⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Have you ordered Dan McClellan's New York Times bestselling book ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠The Bible Says So⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ yet??? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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• 1:40Speaker 01

  Maybe Paul read this, maybe Paul was into this thing.

• 1:42Speaker 00

  Maybe Paul was, I think Paul was probably into a lot of the, you know, the more underground stuff. You've probably never heard of it.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  I liked it, I liked Baruch back when it was, I liked his early stuff.

• 1:54Speaker 00

  When it was Hebrew, yeah.

• 2:01Speaker 00

  Hey everybody, I'm Dan McClellan.

• 2:03Speaker 01

  And I'm Dan Beecher.

• 2:05Speaker 00

  And you're listening to the Data Over Dogma Podcast, where we increase public access to the academic study of the Bible and religion, and we combat the spread of misinformation about the same. How are things today, Dan?

• 2:18Speaker 01

  Good. You're coming in kind of mellow. You've got an NPR vibe.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  I'm coming in hot. I always come in hot. I'm a brash goofball. But, uh, but yeah, I was just gonna say this week is going to probably be a slightly truncated show. Dan is being very kind and going and recording on a day that we normally don't record. He's taking time away from his family that normally they get some Dan time, because I have to go and take care of some family business and an emergency trips coming up, so.

• 2:54Speaker 00

  Yes, you must, you must abandon our good nation.

• 2:57Speaker 01

  I'm fleeing the country. Fleeing, I say.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  But it is all for a good cause.

• 3:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, so hopefully be forgiving, oh ye of our, of listeners, of listenedum.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  And, uh, and, and we'll come back hot next week with something.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Extra spicy, just, just for you.

• 3:21Speaker 00

  And it won't just be the chili.

• 3:22Speaker 01

  It won't just, yeah, that's right.

• 3:24Speaker 00

  That I'm gonna be having in Cincy.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  You're going off to Cincinnati. I'm going to Canada. It's gonna be crazy.

• 3:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Uh, all right, so, uh, we're only gonna be doing one segment this week, and it's gonna be, uh, is it canon?

• 3:42Speaker 00

  Will it canon?

• 3:44Speaker 01

  Will it blend?

• 3:45Speaker 00

  And you can too.

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, then this week's is it canon is, uh, interest, it's, so it's Baruch. Now, we've mentioned the book of Baruch.

• 3:55Speaker 00

  We have.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Before, in conjunction with the...

• 3:59Speaker 01

  Letter of Jeremiah.

• 4:01Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 4:02Speaker 01

  Which is sometimes tacked on to the end of Baruch as just the final chapter of Baruch.

• 4:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it is chapter six, just right on the end there, although most scholars agree this is definitely not written by the same crew and and it is included in other parts.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  And as I read it, when I when I got to chapter five of Baruch, I was like, wait, this is the this is literally exactly the same thing as as the letter of Jeremiah. It is it's it like, I mean, it's not identical, but it just does the same thing. And it does. And it's so like, it's so weird. It's weird to tack on.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, if I read, if I were to read that as one book, I would be like, why are we doing this again? It's like someone was trying to remember what they just wrote and wrote and rewrote it again.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  That's a that's a funny thing. If anybody out there ever ends up like, taking a course in like, Ugaritic or something like that.

• 5:05Speaker 01

  Which you're gonna who among us hasn't?

• 5:07Speaker 00

  Yes, I mean, that's that's the perennial question. Every the when the the leaves start changing and everybody wonders is now the year that I take a course in Ugaritic.

• 5:19Speaker 01

  But are you are you in first year Ugaritic with me? Who do you have for Ugaritic?

• 5:27Speaker 00

  But you you read these mythological texts and there's an awful lot of repetition. The same, the same thing over and over again. I don't know how many letters I translated where I would skip over the first line because I knew it was going to say so and so to so and so at the feet of my Lord, I fall seven times, even eight times I fall at the feet of my Lord. Just this, the the graveling at at one's feet. It's gravel. It's gravel. But yeah, so there's gravel.

• 6:01Speaker 01

  I mean, you know, it depends on what the feet are standing on.

• 6:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, it depends where you are at the moment that you collapse at their feet. But yeah, there's a lot of repetition and there's just so much of this kind of rhetoric in the texts of Greco Roman period Judaism.

• 6:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:16Speaker 00

  It's just over and over again. Look, we got to stop. With the idols. We gotta stop with the worshiping the other deities. We've been over this and over this. It's kind of like being on Twitter, uh, right now. Where it's like, no, we've been through this. We've been through this. Um, but yeah, today we're talking about the, the five chapters of the, uh, of Baruch. And, uh, Baruch is the, uh, son of, uh, Neriah. So Baruch Ben Neriah, uh, and he is well known from the, uh, book of Jeremiah.

• 6:58Speaker 00

  So this is the prophet who operated at the, toward the very end of the seventh century BCE. And then in the early sixth century BCE. So he was the one who was getting in everybody's face out on the street about the coming, uh, destruction of Jerusalem and, uh, forced migration of the Judah Heights. And this made him obviously very unpopular among the, the who's who of, uh, The Hoi Polloi. Well, no, not the Hoi Polloi, it would be the elite, the, um, Hoi Polloi would be, uh, the masses. Okay. Um, but, and, and yeah, there was some unpopularity there, but it was mainly like the king. Yeah.

• 7:41Speaker 00

  Um, there's, there's a famous chapter 36, uh, Jeremiah, chapter 36, where Jeremiah is, God's like, okay, Jeremiah, write all the words of this prophecy down and send it to the king. And Jeremiah is like, uh, Baruch, get over here. Come here. Write down everything I say in a scroll. And Baruch was, okay. And, and writes it all down and then goes and reads it to the people. And you know, it's, it's all the, uh, the Jeremiahs, basically. A Jeremialed is kind of, is kind of a, uh, a finger wagging, a ranting at, uh, everybody for their sins. And somebody, uh, who's in the crowd like goes and tells the, uh, uh, some of the officials.

• 8:25Speaker 00

  And they invite Baruch in to, to read the scroll to them. And he reads the scroll to them. They take it to the king. And they read it to the king and the king evidently is sitting there by the fire and and has the person reading every section that they read, they use a penknife to cut off that section of the scroll and then just plonk, drop it in a fire. And so the king is, is basically,

• 8:48Speaker 00

  is really not happy with Baruch and Baruch goes back to Jeremiah and is like, oh, they, they burnt the scroll.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  They didn't like it.

• 8:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:58Speaker 01

  And where is this?

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Different one. And, and then Jeremiah goes to God and God's like, well, I guess we'll just do it again. And has Jeremiah dictate the words of the prophecy all over again. And Baruch writes another scroll and gave it to the, to the secretary Baruch, son of Neriah, who wrote it at Jeremiah's dictations, all the words of the scroll that King Jehoiakim, by the way, of Judah had burned in the fire and many similar words were added to them. So the king is not on their side. And, and this is kind of how the, the story of, of Baruch, the, the apocryphal text

• 9:43Speaker 00

  begins. But, but before we get to that, is there anything that you wanted to add about Baruch? Or you, you're like, let's move it.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  I didn't know. What I want to do is situate us. So you've, you've connected this to Jeremiah. But so like within the stories of the Bible, if we were to take them as true, then this is, this is like during the exile.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Yes. So Jeremiah, Jeremiah 36, that's happening right before the exile. The exile comes in, in waves and the main ones like 587, 586 BCE, that's when the Jerusalem temple is actually destroyed by the Babylonians. And that's the final wave of forced migrations. And so the letter of Baruch actually begins by situating itself five years after that.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Right.

• 10:42Speaker 00

  And so.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  When, when we have past talked about books that are, that theoretically take place during the exile. It has been, you have, you have made it clear that these books were not written in that time, but were actually written much later in the Hellenistic sort of periods, or whatever.

• 11:00Speaker 00

  Overwhelmingly, yes. Now, now, the, the Book of Jeremiah, portions of that are thought to be authentic, to come from the, the Exilic period. Baruch, no.

• 11:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 11:14Speaker 00

  Baruch is, is definitely coming from well after that. There's, there's an awful lot in Baruch that is quoting, alluding to paraphrasing other parts of scripture, including non-canonical texts and things that are written well after the 6th century BCE. And so, most scholars would say Baruch was probably written 1st century BCE, 1st century CE.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 11:39Speaker 00

  So, the century before the life of Jesus, or the century of the life of Jesus, somewhere in there. And, and scholars suggest that it's divided into four kind of general pieces. And the first two pieces make up the first half. They go to Baruch 3, verse 8. And this, scholars suggest, may have a Hebrew, an underlying Hebrew source text. So, it might have been composed in Hebrew and then translated into Greek. All the manuscripts that we have of Baruch are in Greek. We don't have any existing Hebrew manuscripts.

• 12:17Speaker 00

  And then, for the second half, which basically switches over to poetry, from 3:9 to 5:9, you have wisdom poem, and then you have a poem about return from exile.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:35Speaker 00

  And these are a little, there, there are fewer Semiticisms. So, one of the ways that scholars can tell if something has been translated is if the Greek is using constructions and sayings and idioms and things like that, that are not very Greek. But are but are very, very Hebrew. So for instance, the the master's thesis I wrote at the University of Oxford, which was about textual criticism of the Septuagint and anti- anthropomorphism, you know, that old that old chestnut. I was making the argument that there's this passage in the Hebrew Bible in Hebrew, Exodus 2410, where Moses and the

• 13:19Speaker 00

  seventy elders go up Mount Horeb or Mount Sinai, and it says, "They saw the God of Israel, and under his feet it was like a brickwork of sapphire and shininess and all this kind of stuff, and they and they broke bread," basically. In the Greek, it says, "And they saw the place where the God of Israel stood." However, the Greek says it in a very weird way. It says, "They saw the place there where the God of Israel stood." And that's not how you would normally say that in Greek. However, it is a perfectly normal way to say it in Hebrew. Okay.

• 14:00Speaker 00

  And so it's it's this resumptive adverb thing. And so the argument that I made was that this suggests that the Greek, the disappearance of God, the translating it so that they're not actually looking at God. My argument was that this was not the work of the translator saying, "Well, I don't like that. I'm gonna change it." Because what they changed it to is not natural Greek. My argument was that they were translating something they found in their Hebrew source text, and it was written that way in Hebrew, in a very natural Hebrew way, and then they very woodenly translated it into unnatural Greek. So that was the argument I made. There's a there's a very prominent Septuagint scholar who who heartily

• 14:44Speaker 00

  disagrees with me and has published. It's tough on that.

• 14:48Speaker 01

  A ding dong about that.

• 14:49Speaker 00

  Well, maybe not a ding dong, but at least wrong about that.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:55Speaker 00

  And since that was something I wrote as a recent graduate of my undergraduate degree, I've just kind of backed away slowly. So I'm, I have not taken up that cross recently. But, but that's an example of one way that scholars can say, this was probably written in Hebrew is if the Greek is a little weird, but works well if you back translate it into Hebrew. But you don't really get that for the second half of Baruch, which maybe is an indication that the book came together in stages. Maybe is an indication that, you know, maybe the author translated the first half from a Hebrew source text and then was

• 15:40Speaker 00

  like, I'm gonna roll, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep pumping out that text. Yeah.

• 15:44Speaker 01

  Why stop here?

• 15:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

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• 15:54Speaker 00

  I have forgotten all of it.

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• 17:48Speaker 00

  So Dan, you've heard me talk ad nauseam about the fact that we've got construction going on at the house.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  I've heard the construction.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, you've heard the construction too. We're finishing our basement. We're actually adding on to the house. We're doing some stuff in the backyard. And I was thinking the other day about how nice it was to be able to do this because I wanted to get a new car and I wanted to do these improvements to the house. But we had to pay off our old car and that took actual planning, which you know I hate. And so I really had to shift my thinking quite a bit when it came to my finances. And we had to set dates and we had to create a budget. And it was so satisfying to actually make a plan.

• 18:37Speaker 00

  And then even though it took some discipline and there were some bumps in the road, we actually succeeded and we're able to pay off a car. I got a brand new car and it feels so relieving to know that if we actually set these goals and plan for them and stick to them, it goes from, oh, this will never end, actually feeling like you have control over stuff. And that has made a huge difference to me and to my family.

• 19:04Speaker 01

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• 20:37Speaker 00

  So, uh, so we've got the four different segments, uh, divided into, uh, two. You can divide it in half. The first half is a little more narrative and, and talks about a prayer. You gotta admit the guilt. You got all these petitions that you offer. And then the second half is, uh, is just poetry. But it's set in around 582ish BCE, somewhere in there. And, and one of the, the ways we know this is not actually written in 582 BCE is it starts with, um, Baruch sending, uh, the word

• 21:14Speaker 00

  Of this book to uh Jaconia or uh Jekoniah, son of Jehoiakim, king of Judah. And uh says, talks about passing the hat around, basically to get a bunch of silver, send it to the priest uh in Jerusalem and they basically want them to uh do these temple offerings.

• 21:38Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 21:39Speaker 00

  It says Baruch took the vessels of the house of the Lord that had been carried away from the temple to return them to the land of Judah.

• 21:47Speaker 00

  But the temple was destroyed.

• 21:49Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:50Speaker 00

  It would not be rebuilt until like 519 BCE, so several more decades.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 21:57Speaker 00

  And so this, this is probably being written by somebody who, who knows about the existence of the second temple and for whatever reason, misunderstood the availability of the temple.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  Didn't get the timeline exactly right.

• 22:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, so.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  Got, got a lot of begats correctly. I got Baruch, son of Nero, son of Messah, son of Sekediah, son of Haas, Haas, Haas, Ba-Ba-Ba.

• 22:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  But like, uh, but yeah, the timeline got a little, little wiggly there.

• 22:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, and this is kind of par for the course for Greco-Roman period Judaism, like the book of Daniel does this as well. We've talked about that in the past. That Daniel was like, yeah, and then there was this other guy, uh, and you know, he did this and it's like, who, who, who, who, there was like Darius the Med conquered Babylon and then, and then Cyrus the Great came in after Darius and it's like, no, Cyrus conquered Babylon. And then there was a Darius who was a Persian who came after Cyrus and, um, and so even the, the most popular text from that time period that made it into the canon, unlike Baruch, but uh Daniel made it into the canon, got a lot of the details wrong, so.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  So yeah, that, that is suggestive of somebody who's not writing in this time period. Uh, and so we have uh Baruch basically instructing the people, uh, saying, basically, look, the, the exile is because y'all were naughty.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 00

  And so.

• 23:27Speaker 01

  Everybody, all of us.

• 23:30Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  The, the entire coun- the entire people.

• 23:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  We were all bad and we need to now pray and admit that we were bad. And, and say, we're just so very sorry.

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:45Speaker 01

  And then, one of the weird things, what do you make of verse 11 in chapter one that says, "And pray for the life of King Nabuchadnezzar." This is the Babylonian king, "for the life of his son Belshazzar, so that their days on earth may be like the days of heaven."

• 24:03Speaker 00

  Oof. Yeah, this, and this is related to something that happens in the book of Jeremiah, where in Jeremiah, you have a bunch of people who are saying, you know, "Let's get God to send us back home right away." Like, "Don't even unpack your bags." And where God's gonna send us right back. And in Jeremiah 29, Jeremiah writes a letter to the exiles in Babylon, and basically says, "Get comfortable."

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:32Speaker 00

  Y'all gonna be there a while. And then, and I think it's verse 7, is it 7? Yes, verse 7. "But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf, for in its welfare you will find your welfare." And this is, this is something that has been appealed to by Christian nationalists. We talked about Charlie Kirk appealing to this passage, to endorse Christian nationalism, the idea that you're, basically that your religion should be involved in statecraft, and in, and in ensuring the success of the government,

• 25:15Speaker 00

  even though really what's going on here is Jeremiah is just telling them, "Get cozy."

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Buckle up.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, because you're not going anywhere anytime soon. And so I imagine that Baruch here is kind of reflecting on that, where in order to try to draw lines of connection between what he's talking about and the scripture that already exists, that everybody knows about, he's just kind of gonna touch those bases, hit those beats, so that they can be like, "Oh, yeah, this is the guy."

• 25:47Speaker 01

  This felt different from that, though. It just felt weird to pray for the conquering king. You know what I mean? Pray for the guy that's oppressing us. Not just for us while we're here, or for, you know, for it to be a comfortable stay or whatever. But, yeah, it just seemed a little weird. Pray for them to feel like they're in heaven.

• 26:08Speaker 00

  And the next verse says, "The Lord will give us strength and light to our eyes. We shall live under the protection of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon and under the protection of his son Belshazzar, and we shall serve them many days in favor in their sight." And then, you know, a few years after that, what's 587, 539 BCE, Cyrus the Great comes in and conquers Babylon. And then suddenly everybody's like, "Oh, pray for that guy over there now. He's even better. Great." And Isaiah 45:1, I don't know why I'm confusing 45 and 47. Yeah, it's 45:1.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  Begins with, "Thus says the Lord, to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped, to subdue nations before him and strip kings of their robes." So Cyrus is referred to as the Lord's Christ, the Lord's anointed, the Lord's Messiah in Isaiah 45. So you have some of that similar, "This is our guy" language, not just for Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, but also for the guy who conquered Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, at least their kingdom.

• 27:24Speaker 01

  It just seems so weird to do that when you're writing so far after the fact.

• 27:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. And I think it really is just an attempt to try to draw points of contact.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Right. To make it sound like the other texts that have come before.

• 27:39Speaker 00

  Yeah. And to make it seem like, oh, this is Baruch. This is, you know, Baruch wrote, Jeremiah wrote that letter and said the same thing. So now our guy is saying the same thing. And there is, according to, I don't remember if it's in the text of Jeremiah, if any Jeremiah scholars are listening to this, they're going to be yelling at me. But Jeremiah was supposed to have fled to Egypt with Baruch. They weren't even supposed to be in exile.

• 28:08Speaker 01

  Oops. Yeah. You don't even go here.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  Uh, okay, so.

• 28:14Speaker 00

  Stop trying to make Baruch happen.

• 28:19Speaker 00

  So, yeah, we have, I think that's the, the origin of that, that rhetoric. And, uh, and yeah, you've got the confession of sins. You've got prayers for deliverance that are supposed to be offered, or you say, oh, now, oh, Lord, God of Israel, who brought your people out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand and with signs and wonders and with great power and outstretched arm and made yourself a name that continues to this day. We have sinned. We have been ungodly. We have done wrong. Oh, Lord, our God, against all your ordinances, let your anger turn away from us.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  And there's, I gotta say, a lot of that stuff.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  This is, it is, it is repetitive. It is just, oh, we are not worthy. We are such pieces of crap. Please, please don't be mean to us. We beg of you. We're, we know that we're awful. And it just keeps going and going and going.

• 29:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, it is, um, the, uh, the lady doth protest too much.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  That, that's not what that phrase means, but, um, but yeah, there is an awful lot of that. That's, that's, it makes it sound like the author is trying to kind of, I don't know, the, the more heartfelt, the performance of this, maybe the more effective it will be.

• 29:33Speaker 01

  I guess.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  If you just go, maybe, you know, God's like, and 45 minutes, okay, I'll go ahead and, and, and answer your prayer or, or bless you according to, uh, your wish. I just think of, um, Evan Almighty, no, not Evan Almighty, Bruce Almighty, Bruce Almighty, when he's getting, getting all the emails from all the prayers and is, uh, it's, it's overwhelming him.

• 30:00Speaker 01

  I, it ma- it makes me think of the very spot on, uh, joke that, that Monty Python made at one point where they did, and now do, you know, recite the prayer. Oh, Lord, ooh, you are so big, so absolutely huge. Gosh, we're all really impressed down here, I can tell you. It's, I mean, it what it's that's barely satire of what this of what this actually is.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Well, all it's doing is is taking the sentiment and then articulating it in a way that is is not hiding behind sophisticated, highbrow, archaic language.

• 30:45Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  If you translate it into what it what it would be saying.

• 30:50Speaker 01

  Down to earth, yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 00

  So anyway. It is so obsequious.

• 30:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so Lord God Almighty, God of Israel, yada, yada, yada. Have you ever yada, yada, repentance?

• 31:07Speaker 00

  So, and then we move on, chapter three, it just goes on like this. And then after verse eight, we get to the poems about wisdom.

• 31:24Speaker 00

  You know, the holidays are just around the corner, and I don't know how it is with y'all, but in our family, it's about food and particularly about big meals. And these are things we look forward to all year long. We have special stuff that we do that we did around Halloween time. Now we've got Thanksgiving coming up. There's a lot of prepping for them that takes over a lot of our day. And that can sometimes make it harder to be consistent about meals outside of the big meal. They can kind of take a backseat. And so sometimes you find yourself just kind of grazing in the pantry. I know all too well what that is like. And it can be hard to stay on track, hit your macros and eat well around the holidays.

• 32:07Speaker 00

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• 32:30Speaker 01

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• 34:25Speaker 00

  There's all this tech shit going on right now. We have facial recognition. We have our Ring cameras giving data to police. We have the Flock safety cameras. We have Amazon Echo and all these devices that are constantly listening to us and using our data for one purpose or another. Hey, we have a national security problem when a company like Flock turns it into this organized system that law enforcement can access.

• 34:48Speaker 04

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• 34:56Speaker 01

  About wisdom. And then I think as I read it and and a couple of times I had to sort of shake myself out of the the stupor that this kind of biblical poetry puts me in.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  But as I read it.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  Okay, what was that?

• 35:11Speaker 01

  It seems like like it's about quote unquote wisdom, but basically it what it's about is you can't get wisdom in the big cities. You gotta just follow the rules of the law. And the end, that's all the wisdom there is. You don't get any more wisdom than that.

• 35:31Speaker 00

  And it's, yeah, the the so wisdom is is this is personified. It's this divine gift, but it's really identified with Torah, with the law. And so basically, it's like you want wisdom, there's your wisdom right there.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  We already wrote it down. What do you want? More do you want? Stop looking for other wisdom. There's no more wisdom. We wrote down all the wisdom.

• 35:53Speaker 00

  For for Latter Day Saints, wisdom, wisdom, we already have a wisdom. We have no more need of of wisdom. So it's and this is riffing on Proverbs eight. That's where wisdom is personified and was like, I was engendered before the hills and I was, you know, birthed before God drew the circle of the earth. And and then we also have Syrah, chapter 24, I believe, is is also related to this. So again, we're, we're trying to create points of contact with scripture that's already in circulation in order to increase the the

• 36:33Speaker 00

  gravitas, the authority of our text. And Israel has forsaken wisdom, but then we have the promise of redemption from a a figure who comes from on high. I think this is three.

• 36:50Speaker 00

  29. Who has gone up into heaven and taken her and brought her down from the clouds? Who has gone over the sea and found her and will buy her for pure gold? No one knows the way to her or is concerned about the path to her. But the one who knows all things knows her. He found her by his understanding. The one who prepared the earth for all time, filled it with four-footed creatures. Anything more or less than that is of the devil evidently.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  He called them and they said, here we are. They shone with gladness for him who made them. This is our God, no other can be compared to him. And yeah, he found the whole way to knowledge and gave her to his servant Jacob and Israel, whom he loved afterwards. She appeared on earth and lived with humankind. She is the book of the commandments of God, the law that endures forever.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  So we've got, we've got a lot of wisdom going on and then we get a bunch of encouragement for Israel. You know, we've, we've just been like, you gotta just, I suck. You're the greatest, I'm the worst. You're awesome, I'm awful, you're beautiful, I'm ugly. And then we get the, the wisdom poetry and then we get the, these poems of consolation. It's basically saying, it'll be okay.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  It's, it's cool, man. You're gonna be all right. There's gonna be some joy, there's gonna be some, there, there was sorrow and now there's, there's gonna be joy. Yeah.

• 38:23Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and there's still some, some lamenting. I was left desolate because of the sins of my children, because they turned away from the law of God in no regard for his statutes. They did not walk in the ways of his commandments. Is this how you treat me? After all I've done for you?

• 38:44Speaker 01

  It's the Jewish mother for sure.

• 38:46Speaker 00

  But we, how can I help you in verse 18? For he who brought these calamities will deliver you from the hand of your enemies, which, which sounds an awful lot like a lot of the, the prophetic texts. That's like, God beat, just beat you down.

• 39:03Speaker 00

  But God will be nice to you again. God's gonna pick you back up and everything will be okay. Not, not in your lifetime. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  But yeah, your, your kids are gonna get a, a nice condo back in, in Judah. When, when we're all done with this.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  Take courage, my children. Cry to God and he will deliver you from the power and hand of the enemy. For I've put my hope in the everlasting to save you. So it's kind of, there's a, um, I remember learning something called the, uh, what was it called? I think it's called the criticism sandwich. When, uh, when, when you're training, uh, when you're like coaching.

• 39:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 39:39Speaker 00

  People.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  The compliment sandwich.

• 39:42Speaker 00

  Compliment sandwich. Yeah. Where you say something nice, give them some constructive criticism and then say something nice.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  You're actually more correct. They do call it a compliment sandwich, but it, it's a criticism sandwich. The, the thing between the bread.

• 39:56Speaker 00

  Criticism, yeah.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  Is the, is what you name the sandwich after. So, so you're right. It is a criticism sandwich, not a compliment sandwich. But yeah. You're, that's, that's what we have here.

• 40:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. A nice, uh, uh, MLT where the mutton is nice and lean.

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 40:14Speaker 00

  I, I sent you out with sorrow and weeping, but God will give you back to me with joy and gladness forever. And, and it just goes on like that. Yeah. So you've got a lot more of that. And then, uh, Jerusalem, uh, is addressed in the vocative. Oh Jerusalem, take courage for the one who named you will comfort you. So, uh, yeah, the, this, and, and this is the second half. Chapter five is only nine verses. Take off the garment of your sorrow and affliction, O Jerusalem, and put on forever the beauty of the glory from God. Put on the robe of righteousness that comes from God. Put on, this is sounding very Pauline. Put on your head the diadem of the glory of the everlasting, for God will show your splendor everywhere under heaven.

• 40:56Speaker 00

  For God will give you evermore the name, righteous peace, godly glory. Arise, O Jerusalem. Stand upon the height, look toward the east and see your children gathered from west to east. And, and it continues on like that.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  That's interesting that you say it's Pauline, cause, cause you, you said it, there's a. Possibility that this could have been influenced by Paul.

• 41:16Speaker 00

  If it's at the very late window, chronological window of composition, who knows? I think it is considered a Jewish composition and not a Christian one. But yeah, the whole put on, you know, put on the robe of righteousness, put on your head the diadem of the glory of the everlasting, sounds an awful lot like Paul saying, put on the helmet of righteousness and pick up the shield of faith.

• 41:43Speaker 01

  Maybe Paul read this, maybe Paul was into this thing.

• 41:45Speaker 00

  Maybe Paul was, I think Paul was probably into a lot of the, you know, the more underground stuff. You've probably never heard of it.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  I liked Baruch back when it was, I liked his early stuff.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  When it was Hebrew, yeah.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Tell me this, because when I was looking at, you know, when I was doing some research, essentially, like, this is a Jewish text, but Jews don't, don't take ownership of this. Jews now don't include this in their scripture.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  So this is, this is something that was included in the Septuagint. Now, Septuagint is a designation that is more closely connected with Christian transmission of the scriptures, but it comes from an ancient Jewish tale of the pseudo-Aristaeus. And so it is part of the ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, which was in circulation among Greco-Roman period Jewish folks, probably until, you know, second and third centuries CE, as you're having this division of Judaism and Christianity, where Judaism kind of rejects the Greek foundation of what's going on in Christianity.

• 43:04Speaker 00

  Judaism, the rise of rabbinic Judaism is kind of based on a rhetorical, not entirely historical, but at least a rhetorical rejection of the influence of the Greek world and a return to the more ancient, pristine, original Hebrew worldview. And so it takes a while, but ultimately their canon. Settles on things that were composed in Hebrew and Aramaic. And so, things that only existed in Greek were overwhelmingly rejected. And so, they're preserved in the Greek Septuagint, which was the Old Testament of early Christianity.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  And there's a great book written by my thesis supervisor when I was at the University of Oxford, Timothy Michael Law, called "When God Spoke Greek: The Septuagint and the Making of the Christian Bible", which talks all about how, basically Greco-Roman period Judaism brings the Jewish scriptures from Hebrew into Greek. Christianity develops and runs with the Greek scriptures, whereas Judaism goes, "We changed our minds. We're going back to the Hebrew." And so, a lot of these Jewish texts that were either composed in or primarily transmitted in Greek exist and were transmitted and perpetuated

• 44:30Speaker 00

  because they were used by Christians and not so much by Jewish folks. Interesting. Yeah, and so even things like a lot of the manuscripts of Josephus and Philo and things like that were not really preserved within Jewish communities nearly as much as within Christian communities. And so, this is one of the things that would have been translated into Latin as part of the Vulgate. But then by the time we get to the Protestant Reformation, and Martin Luther is like, "Ew, I don't like this stuff." And so, that gets put into the Apocrypha, and then Protestants in the 19th century decide,

• 45:13Speaker 00

  "We don't want to hang around you anymore, Apocrypha. Go home." And so, yeah, Baruch is a Jewish text that primarily is preserved in Christian manuscripts, like the Septuagint manuscripts of the 4th and 5th centuries CE. So, yeah, it is, and that's a peculiarity of... Of the development of rabbinic Judaism and Christianity. And in fact, when we look at,

• 45:46Speaker 00

  and I think we talked about this in one of the discussions that we had about ideas about fetal personhood and abortion, where Christianity sticks with the Greek philosophical perspective, whereas rabbinic Judaism returns to the perspective of the Hebrew Bible, abandons the Greek philosophical perspective and goes back to the Hebrew Bible. And so the parting of the ways, whenever this occurs, in a lot of ways is a question of who's going to return to Hebrew Bible stuff and who's going to carry on the Greek philosophical tradition as overlaid upon the scriptures.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  All right. Well, let's close this out. You know, we're looking at, I guess, the, you know, as you say, Baruch 5 is short, but again, it is literally the same as Baruch 6, which is the

• 46:54Speaker 00

  The letter of Jeremiah.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  Jeremiah. It's all just, don't worry about the, the bad guys, gods, don't worry about them. That's not, you know, you're not gonna, they can't do anything.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, they can't bake a cake. They can't do any of this stuff. Yeah. And it's interesting. You've got four different texts in like the Vulcets that are related to Jeremiah. You've got Jeremiah, you've got Lamentations, you've got Baruch, and you've got the letter of Jeremiah. And they're all basically doing the same thing in terms of trying to convince people not to adopt the worship practices of the people around them, because that's what caused the exile in the first place. And it looks like in ancient Septuagint manuscripts, you have the order goes Jeremiah, Baruch, Lamentations, Letter of Jeremiah. Whereas in

• 47:53Speaker 00

  the Latin tradition, the Vedas Latina, the old Latin, when Jeremiah, Baruch, Lamentations, Letter of Jeremiah. So that's the same. Although it looks like

• 48:07Speaker 00

  Baruch is appended to Jeremiah without a break. So Baruch is basically the end of Jeremiah. And then Jerome's volget has Jeremiah and Lamentations, but then omits Baruch and the letter of Jeremiah. So, yeah, different people did different stuff with it and put it in different orders. But, yeah, it's an interesting tradition. And if you want to understand how Christians would have engaged, at least for the first four centuries-ish of followers of Jesus, how they would have engaged these texts, you gotta read Baruch. You gotta see the lens through which they're looking at Jeremiah.

• 48:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:50Speaker 00

  Yeah. And they weren't incredibly critical about where this came from and why it feels so Greek to them, because everything they were dealing with was some kind of Greek.

• 49:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've never thought of the Christian-Jewish divide as being linguistic as well as sort of theological. But it does seem like that's as good a place to draw the line as any, almost.

• 49:22Speaker 00

  I think it was certainly a big factor, because I think the use of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, became an identity marker for Christians. And in fact, you have folks like Origin of Alexandria, who creates what's called the Hepsopla, what did I say? The Hepsopla, which is like a six-column manuscript of the Bible, where he's got the Hebrew, and then he's got a transliteration of the Hebrew into Greek, and then he's got the Septuagint, and he's got different recensions of the Septuagint, and he's got little annotations that he makes where the Hebrew differs from the Septuagint. And a lot of people were saying that the differences

• 50:06Speaker 00

  were because Jewish folks realized the Septuagint was... Their scriptures were too Christian.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  And so they revised the Hebrew away from Christianity to make their scriptures sound less Christian.

• 50:23Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 50:24Speaker 00

  So, so early Christians were like, those Jewish people, they're, they're changing their texts. They're changing the Bible to, to make it sound less Christian. Uh, which, so it, I kind of, and it's the complete opposite, obviously. The Septuagint was, uh, translated in a period of, of heightened messianism and Greek thought.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:47Speaker 00

  So it's, it's really the, the socio-cultural influences that, uh, that gave rise to, to Christianity. And that Christianity kind of ran with, that are responsible for the differences, introducing the differences.

• 50:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:00Speaker 00

  And so I, I laugh when, when people today, you know, buy a new translation of the New Testament. And they're like, they took out the verses. And, you know, the, the, the unnamed they is, is doing all this stuff. Uh, and it's like, no, they're giving you a more faithful, uh, more accurate Bible.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Right.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  The verses were added by other people after the fact. And so they're not taking stuff away from the word of God. They are restoring a more accurate version of, of the quote unquote word of God. So.

• 51:36Speaker 01

  I feel like, I feel like whoever the they is, whoever made the, you know, when you, when you do a new version of the Bible and you make the choice to make it more accurate to what we believe the original text would have been.

• 51:50Speaker 00

  Oh, you're playing with fire.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  But what I'm saying is just yell about it. Just make, just scream, here's what I'm doing, everybody. Here's why I'm doing it. I just want you to know, don't just, don't just release the, the version. Don't just like, put it out in, into the world and hope that people read the footnotes.

• 52:12Speaker 00

  And I, I'm sure that there's a degree to which they try to do that, but it's never going to be enough. Cause there are always people like, as many times if I, as I've made that video and I've said, look, Matthew 1721 wasn't in the earliest manuscripts. That's why it's not there. There are going to be, until the sun expands and consumes the earth, there are going to be people who make videos going, I just discovered this.

• 52:42Speaker 01

  And, and Well, there's good, there's, there's, there's good clicks in, in outrage.

• 52:48Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah. Oh, woo.

• 52:50Speaker 01

  And conspiracy theory. So.

• 52:53Speaker 00

  Well, yeah. And we're, unfortunately, the internet and, and brain rot meme culture and all that stuff is

• 53:02Speaker 00

  just making it harder and harder for people to find good info, good data, and to think critically about it because

• 53:11Speaker 00

  yeah, it's just, it's a mess.

• 53:12Speaker 01

  Well,

• 53:13Speaker 00

  I'm upset about this.

• 53:14Speaker 01

  On, on, on, on that note, hey, everybody, share our stuff. Cause we're, we're out here trying to do some data. We're out here trying to do some, some critical thinking. So.

• 53:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:25Speaker 01

  So, uh, share far and wide if you can. All right. I think that that's a good place to close it out. Friends, thank you so much for listening. If you would like to become a part of making this show what it is, we can't do it without our patrons. So if you happen to have some, uh, some extra coin kicking around that you'd be willing to share, go to patreon.com slash data over dogma and get yourself early access to an ad free version of every episode. As well as potentially if you, at the, at certain levels, you'll get the after party with bonus content every darn week.

• 54:06Speaker 01

  And, uh, and, and, and potentially other bonuses that we come up with as we come up with them. Uh, but yeah, that, that would be how to, how to help us out. Otherwise go and leave us a five star review, uh, wherever you're, you're listening to this. That's also helpful. Sharing, liking, subscribing, all those things on the YouTube's or whatever is always a great thing. So we really appreciate that.

• 54:32Speaker 00

  Toss a coin to your data over dogmaist.

• 54:35Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:35Speaker 00

  Um, and

• 54:37Speaker 01

  Tribe of Dan, get in there. We need you.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  And while we appreciate the money that jingles, we prefer the money that folds. You know, do you know where that's from?

• 54:47Speaker 01

  I, I remember that.

• 54:49Speaker 00

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• 54:50Speaker 01

  Oh, right.

• 54:51Speaker 00

  That's when the donations, donation.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  You know what the best nation in the world is? Donation. All right. Uh, thanks all for joining us and we will talk to you again next week.

• 55:05Speaker 00

  Bye, everybody.

• 55:11Speaker 01

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• 55:21Speaker 05

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