164: Oak Cliff Swipers

He started small, swiping cards, buying gift cards, and cashing out. It spiraled into a full‑blown criminal enterprise. Dozens of co‑conspirators, stacks of stolen plastic, and a lifestyle built on chaos. Meet Nathan Michael, leader of Oak Cliff Swipers. SponsorsSupport for this show comes from ThreatLocker® https://www.threatlocker.com/. ThreatLocker® is a Zero Trust Endpoint Protection Platform that strengthens your infrastructure from the ground up. With ThreatLocker® Allowlisting and Ringfencing™, you gain a more secure approach to blocking exploits of known and unknown vulnerabilities. ThreatLocker® provides Zero Trust control at the kernel level that enables you to allow everything you need and block everything else, including ransomware! Learn more at www.threatlocker.com https://www.threatlocker.com/. Support for this show comes from Pantheon https://pantheon.io/. Pantheon keeps your site fast, secure, and always on. That means better SEO, more conversions, and no lost sales from downtime. But this isn’t just a business win; it’s a developer win too. Your team gets automated workflows, isolated test environments, and zero-downtime deployments. Visit Pantheon.io https://pantheon.io/, and make your website your unfair advantage. Support for this show comes from Adaptive Security https://www.adaptivesecurity.com/. Deepfake voices on a Zoom call. AI-written phishing emails that sound exactly like your CFO. Synthetic job applicants walking through the front door. Adaptive is built to stop these attacks. They run real-time simulations, exposing your teams to what these attacks look like to test and improve your defences. Learn more at adaptivesecurity.com https://www.adaptivesecurity.com/.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Jack Rhysider?

  Man, I got a story for you. Where did this one even come from? Oh, yeah, it was Twitter. I got a Twitter DM. And this guy's like, hi, I'm Nathan. I'm like, OK. And he was like, yeah, I've done some stuff. And you might want to interview me. I should note right here that this episode has a lot of swear words. And I would say it's for mature audiences. So if you have some sensitive ears around you, I recommend listening to this one with headphones or whatever you need to do. That's your warning. That's your graphic warning for this one. So typically, when someone DMs me and says, hey, you know, you should interview me for your show. My first response, without even knowing anything about them, is, can I see your police report?

• 0:46Jack Rhysider?

  Because a lot of people who message me, they like want to be on the show for hacking something, but maybe they've never been caught. And so I hate to glorify their actions, right? But even more so, it's probably true that their story isn't over yet. And it's just the beginning. And I should probably check in with them like in a few years to see how things are going. But I also have CEOs message me and say, hey, I'd like to come on the show and tell you about my product and how great everything is and how great we can defend things and stuff. And so when I just immediately start by asking for a police report, that cuts right through a lot of the small talk and gets right to the heart of what I'm looking for. I want to know about the worst day of your life, the thing that happened that was just catastrophic to you. And you probably don't even want to talk about that.

• 1:32Jack Rhysider?

  But with this guy Nathan, I ask him for a police report. He just starts sending me link after link of news reports and files and videos and photos. Yeah, indictments and affidavits and all that stuff. And it was piling up. This story just kept growing. I couldn't even keep up. And I was like, OK, OK, OK, yeah, yeah, yeah, let's definitely talk. Whatever this one is, it looks like it goes deep. So I'm like, hey, we should probably switch to Signal, which is a more private messaging app. And he gives me his Signal number and I message him there. And we start talking. But then I find out I'm actually talking to his brother, a different guy.

• 2:08Jack Rhysider?

  Hey, man. I thought I was talking to you on Signal, but it ended up being your brother and he's like, "Yeah, I gave you both me and my brother, my brother's signals. You could talk to both of us." And I'm like, "Okay, which one is yours?" So he tells me which one is his and I'm like, "Okay, let's do a call." And he's like, "Great, give me a date and time and I'll be there." And I'm like, "All right, well, how about this weekend?" He's like, "Hell, yeah. Saturday, I'm free all day." I'm like, "Great, let's do it." Saturday comes, I wake up and I check the Signal and I got a message from him in all caps and it's like, "I have to work until midnight, but it's not that hard, so I can multitask and I can talk to you at the same time." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no. Don't call me while you're at work. Finish your job and then we'll talk. How about tomorrow, Sunday, 10 a.m.?"

• 2:52Jack Rhysider?

  He's like, "Yeah, that sounds great. I got nothing going on all day Sunday." So on Sunday, 10 a.m. comes around, he messages me saying, "Man, my baby mama is tripping, so I have to drive my daughter somewhere. I'm gonna be two hours late for the call." I'm like, "Oh, okay, no problem. It's Sunday. See you in two hours." So two hours go by and I'm like, "All right, you ready?" And he's like, "Uh, my phone is about to die and I'm not near a computer, so let me charge it on a power bank for 30 minutes." I'm like, "Okay, fine." And I think at this time, he like went to his mom's house or something and she's like 70 years old and I think he was gonna take her to the store or something, but then he texts me a photo of her. She's all dressed up, ready to go out, jewelry on, purse in hand,

• 3:37Jack Rhysider?

  but she's passed out on a couch and he tells me, "She drank too much and passed out." Then he even tells me like, "It's not even her house. Someone's asking me to take my mom somewhere else, so now I've gotta drive my passed-out mom somewhere." And then he starts filling my texts with wild chats. He's like, "I don't even know some of the shit he was saying to me on Signal." It's like, "He was gonna show me a video of him cussing out some cops and then he told me his brother is on the run due to some impending felonies." And I'm like, "Is that the same brother I talked to?" He's like, "Yeah, man." And he tells me his uncle killed himself and how he chose his kids instead of his uncle's life and I can't even follow what he's saying. But then he goes swimming and he sends me a photo of him swimming in a pool with his daughter.

• 4:21Jack Rhysider?

  And needless to say, we did not get a chance to do a call that weekend, even though I was sitting on the line for like six hours waiting for him to show up.

• 4:33Jack Rhysider?

  So we tried to reschedule, but man, we had a lot of conflicts. All I'm trying to say is that this guy, Nathan, is one wiggly guy and is hard to get on the phone. But eventually we got on the phone together.

• 4:46Speaker 02

  You made it. Yeah.

• 4:48Jack Rhysider?

  So what are you doing right now?

• 4:51Speaker 02

  I'm sitting right here with a bong in front of me, in front of the five computer screens.

• 4:57Jack Rhysider?

  What is that Wi-Fi?

• 4:59Speaker 02

  I mean, because my brain's going so fast.

• 5:02Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, yeah. You only have two eyes, though.

• 5:05Speaker 02

  No, but they're going everywhere.

• 5:08Jack Rhysider?

  What's, what's?

• 5:09Speaker 02

  You see them all at the same time, kind of, you know what I mean?

• 5:12Jack Rhysider?

  Why? What's going on in your brain? Why is it going so fast? Explain to me your process, your, your brain here.

• 5:19Speaker 02

  It's like fireworks constantly exploding in my brain.

• 5:23Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, so give me an example. Are you like, oh, I gotta check an email. I gotta check Twitter. I like, what's going on?

• 5:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, like a thousand, a thousand.

• 5:33Speaker 02

  No, babe, I'm not talking to you. My daughter. No, honey, do an interview.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  She said, oh, okay, and that.

• 5:42Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, so, uh, so I'll, I prepare for the worst and then hope for the best.

• 5:50Speaker 02

  That makes sense?

• 5:50Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 5:51Speaker 02

  That way you're in a prize.

• 5:52Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, and you've gone through some pretty bad stuff, so.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 5:56Jack Rhysider?

  You've got different levels of trauma.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Right, there are levels to it, for sure, for sure.

• 6:03Speaker 02

  Yeah. Like, they need, they need to scale for that. Maybe all this new AI and supercomputer shit, they'll come up with some good shit. We're gonna be cyborgs by like, by like twenty, thirty, we're gonna be getting two years younger every year.

• 6:16Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, yeah, I hope so. I, I don't want to get older.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  They don't want to live forever. You know what I mean?

• 6:23Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, I, I, I, I want that.

• 6:25Speaker 02

  I don't know if I want to live forever.

• 6:28Jack Rhysider?

  All right, let's start with what's your first name?

• 6:31Speaker 02

  Nathan.

• 6:32Jack Rhysider?

  Okay. I, I got in my notes that Nathan is the ringleader of this whole enterprise.

• 6:40Speaker 02

  Well, you know, uh, I mean, if they would have really got the people that should, they should have got, or whoever, then it's probably, uh, my mother-in-law that would have been the ringleader, because, uh.

• 6:51Jack Rhysider?

  It gets worse already. We haven't even started and it already gets worse.

• 7:00Jack Rhysider?

  These are true stories from the dark side of the internet.

• 7:07Jack Rhysider?

  I'm Jack Reisider. This is Darknet Diaries.

• 7:28Jack Rhysider?

  This episode is sponsored by ShipStation. During Black Friday and Cyber Monday, things can get a bit hectic. Millions of people scrambling to find the lowest price online and then all clicking "Buy" multiple times within a 72-hour period. Now, retailers all over have to somehow ship those orders out on time, and that seems like a whole new level of hectic, one that ShipStation is built to help businesses manage. ShipStation is an end-to-end order fulfillment platform, built to handle the order surge of peak season and bring all your orders into one place so your team isn't scrambling when volume spikes. Over 1 million businesses have learned on ShipStation to get through peak season, scaling fulfillment up to 40 times while cutting costs up to 30%. If I needed to ship a lot of stuff, I would definitely be using ShipStation.

• 8:13Jack Rhysider?

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• 8:32Jack Rhysider?

  This episode is sponsored by Black Hills Information Security. Black Hills InfoSec loves sharing their knowledge with free webcasts, blogs, zines, comics, and courses designed for beginners and those more advanced. Through anti-siphon training, they teach you the cybersecurity skills you need, from SOC analyst tools and methodologies to setting up traps and running deception operations. It's hands-on, practical training built for people who want to advance and hone their skills. The world of cybersecurity has changed a lot this year, and every day seems to bring more questions about what comes next. That's why Anti-Siphon Training is hosting a free summit on December 9, asking, "What in the actual cyber happened in 2026?"

• 9:15Jack Rhysider?

  Join experienced practitioners as they share practical lessons, real-world experiences, and insights into the top security news of 2026. And because you're a Darknet Diaries listener, they've got a little something extra waiting for you at blackhillsinfosec.com/darknet. That's blackhillsinfosec.com/darknet.

• 9:38Jack Rhysider?

  Nathan grew up in Oak Cliff, an area near Dallas, Texas.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  They put me on Ritalin when I was six years old, bro.

• 9:45Jack Rhysider?

  Ritalin, wow.

• 9:46Speaker 02

  First day of kindergarten. I tried to stab a kid at school.

• 9:49Jack Rhysider?

  Because your head was fireworks. Wait, did you say you tried to stab a kid at school?

• 9:54Speaker 02

  First day of kindergarten.

• 9:56Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, man, you were that kind of kid.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It made you more for real.

• 10:02Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 10:04Speaker 02

  And then, of course, the drugs didn't help. When you're self-medicating, you're thinking it's helping, and it ain't helping.

• 10:14Jack Rhysider?

  By the time he was 14, him and his brother were really into video games. Diablo 2 and World of Warcraft were his favorites. And at the time, there was an underground market where you could buy and sell in-game items for real money. So they'd play these games and try to sell things within the game.

• 10:29Speaker 02

  Well, I was like 14, and I was selling Diablo 2 items. I kept getting scammed on PayPal or Chargebacks. So I just joined that side because they seemed to be making more money because I was losing more.

• 10:40Jack Rhysider?

  And there's his origin story. He got scammed, and the scammer didn't get in any trouble at all. He got away clean with Nathan's money. He was like, "All right, all right, I see how this world is. Either you're getting scammed, or you're the scammer. Might as well be the scammer."

• 10:58Speaker 02

  Like, I knew right from wrong from when I was a kid. I chose this path. My parents didn't raise me like this. My parents raised me to do right. But when I got tired of getting scammed, I just chose the path to the dark side.

• 11:13Jack Rhysider?

  But his origin story isn't as simple as that. If you know Oak Cliff, you may also know that that's a rough area of town to grow up in.

• 11:22Speaker 02

  So I was raised middle class, but I lived in the hood. Like, my parents made about a hundred thousand dollars a year.

• 11:27Jack Rhysider?

  Okay.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  You know? We had the nicest house in the neighborhood and shit like that. But I was raised in the streets, so.

• 11:33Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, so tell me what was shitty about your neighborhood?

• 11:38Speaker 02

  You know, police chasing people around the neighborhood, shit like that. About three o'clock in the morning, you're looking out your window and there's three helicopters in the sky looking for somebody and the spotlight's shining on your house. Shit like that, gunshots, you know, seeing people get shot.

• 11:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:53Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 11:54Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, I picked up all my bad habits at school. I mean, that's where everybody learns all the bad shit, right? Is at school?

• 12:01Speaker 02

  And then I got on the internet and then I started picking up all the bad shit. Once I started getting into wares and programming and AOL back in ninety-four, ninety-five, ninety-six, ninety-seven, ninety-eight.

• 12:11Jack Rhysider?

  Well, I think there's some sort of reflection here of like, it's like, hey, look, if I'm gonna be nice, people are still gonna rob me and beat me up and all this sort of thing. So I gotta toughen up. I gotta be a jerk to the world because the world is a jerk to me.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  And that's why I turned into a monster.

• 12:29Speaker 02

  I'd be like, seriously, like, I just did thirteen years in prison and I didn't even know I could fight that good. I mean, I got into a lot of fights growing up where I grew up at, but I didn't know I was a beast.

• 12:40Jack Rhysider?

  People learn a lot about themselves in prison, don't they?

• 12:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, you do. I mean, I'm still learning things, but I just realized what a couple of triggers I had that were pissing me off and how easy they were to change, so I didn't get mad no more.

• 12:51Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 12:52Speaker 02

  That's like self-discovery, like, I'm just now getting self-discovery. Because I've been clouded by drugs my whole life.

• 12:59Jack Rhysider?

  So who were you living with at fourteen?

• 13:01Speaker 02

  I was living with my mom and dad in Oak Cliff, Dallas.

• 13:05Jack Rhysider?

  Your brother living together as well?

• 13:07Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah, me and my little brother.

• 13:09Jack Rhysider?

  All right.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  I just dropped out of school.

• 13:14Jack Rhysider?

  Dropped out?

• 13:16Jack Rhysider?

  Let me guess, um.

• 13:20Jack Rhysider?

  You were, I wanna, I wanna say dirtbag, but it, but you probably don't.

• 13:25Jack Rhysider?

  Call yourself a dirtbag. I'm trying to guess what kind of person you are. But I imagine just you got into drugs and just screwed around and like, forget this, I'm done with this. And you didn't shower and you just played video games.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  I was, I was out pimping hoes.

• 13:40Jack Rhysider?

  What?

• 13:41Speaker 02

  Pussy. Yeah, when I was sleeping, I was chasing pussy.

• 13:44Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 02

  It's crazy. Like, like, so I dropped out and my mom bought me a computer from the IT guy at work. It was a 486 Pentium and I wanna say it was a 144 baud modem. And, uh, I, I've been stuck on a computer ever since.

• 14:09Jack Rhysider?

  And this whole time Nathan and his little brother were watching how people were making money in their area. And living in the hood, you could probably guess what kind of stuff that they were seeing. A lot of hustlers. And they were set on trying to find ways to make money themselves. But they were also super into computers. So that's where they focused on trying to make money.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  Okay. So like my whole life, me and my little brother, we always made money on the internet. Uh, through like video games, through, uh, selling currency and stuff like that for games and stuff.

• 14:36Jack Rhysider?

  How, how do you do that?

• 14:38Speaker 02

  For like selling in-game currencies for different video games. Like we used to have a couple of Diablo two dupes. And we sold Diablo two items and we sold WoW gold. And we had a virus, a root kid virus that stole all accounts for every, uh, gaming, uh, platform that they had.

• 14:53Jack Rhysider?

  How were you getting the gold to sell?

• 14:57Speaker 02

  Oh, we were buying it from them. We stole PayPal's and shit.

• 15:00Jack Rhysider?

  Ooh, so we gotta step back a second now.

• 15:04Speaker 02

  I'll have to hold the story.

• 15:07Jack Rhysider?

  So you got, you got.

• 15:10Speaker 02

  It's 94, you know? I was doing it back in the BBS days.

• 15:13Jack Rhysider?

  Holy cow.

• 15:17Jack Rhysider?

  So he'd buy access to someone else's PayPal account, buy some in-game gold with that, and then he'd have the gold in his video game account, and then he'd sell that gold to some other player for real cash, which he could put in his pocket. In this way, he was using World of Warcraft gold as sort of a money laundering mechanism. And this led him to chat rooms, where people were selling or trading credit card dumps. This is where they get their hands on some full credit card details so that they could buy whatever they want with it.

• 15:49Speaker 02

  And they just weren't hitting, bro. Like, you know, it'd be like hit or miss, like, you know, because they have all the algorithms and shit running. So it would be hit or miss. And then, but then when you, when you, when you get a good one, it'd be a banger, you know? So now I was like, man. So then we were sat down again, and we're like, well, there's gotta be a better way. Because these just ain't working.

• 16:08Jack Rhysider?

  See, I've gotta hand it to these two boys. They were incredibly persistent and diligent at finding ways to make money. Sometimes it was legal, sometimes it wasn't. They would study a lot, learn how to do stuff, try it, fail, and then pivot and try something new. They were young teenagers, though. So a lot of the stuff they were doing was really dumb and not working. But they knew there was loads of money to be made online somewhere, scamming, stealing. It was just a matter of trying lots of stuff before finding where the good stuff was. One idea was the one that his mother-in-law came up with. He was married in, I don't know, 2008-ish, and his wife worked at Walmart, and his mother-in-law gave him an idea. When someone goes to use a credit card to buy stuff at Walmart,

• 16:53Jack Rhysider?

  the cashier tries to scan the card in the little machine. And if it works, okay, great. The card is charged, and the person goes on their way. But sometimes the magnetic stripe gets screwed up. The card is broken or something like that, and it doesn't swipe right. So if the cashier can't swipe the card, then they look at the numbers on the card and punch those numbers into the cash register manually and charge the card that way. Well, his mother-in-law was like, so what you guys should do, Nathan, you should bring a totally broken card when my daughter is on the register and put on the card a bunch of credit card numbers for her to try. And she'll just keep punching in random credit card numbers until you guys find one that actually works.

• 17:31Speaker 02

  My ex-wife was a manager at Walmart. So when I tell them that my card, I've demagnetized a strip on a card so that it would say they gotta punch it in. They can manually enter the number then if it doesn't swipe. Then she come over there and put in her little manager key and I give her a blank card, like a blank PVC card with just a mag strip on the back of it, with a post-it note on the front of it with like eight card numbers, eight CZVs and eight expiration dates. And we just sit there and run that bitch and get whatever we can get off of them.

• 17:58Jack Rhysider?

  Can you guess what he was trying to buy with this? Stacks and stacks of gift cards. If a random card would work, then he'd buy as many gift cards as he could on that bogus, made up, stolen credit card number.

• 18:10Speaker 02

  I got $30,000 worth of gift cards in one day from her Walmart.

• 18:16Jack Rhysider?

  You didn't actually spend any of the gift cards, right?

• 18:19Speaker 02

  Oh, no, we spent them all.

• 18:20Jack Rhysider?

  Why? You spent, what'd you spend $30,000 in gift cards on?

• 18:24Speaker 02

  Uh, well, you know, it's half price when you're selling it anyways. And when you're selling quantities like that, you gotta go down about 40% anyways. So.

• 18:32Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so you were reselling them and then other people were spending it?

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 18:37Jack Rhysider?

  God damn.

• 18:37Speaker 02

  But I had sold one to my mom. So she, cause you do bill pay at Walmart. But I sold one to my mom and then they jammed my mom up too. My mom was retired and so she got her job at Walmart when she retired.

• 18:51Jack Rhysider?

  So what did your mom think of you giving her a stolen gift card? Like, I imagine you've been in trouble like a thousand times by this point, but I should have been asking this, like, what do your parents think of you?

• 19:02Speaker 02

  I do not want to. With two aggravated assaults with deadly weapons.

• 19:07Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, kindergarten, you were stabbing someone and then aggravated assaults. I imagine it's not news for your mom to hear that you're doing crazy shit.

• 19:15Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:19Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, okay, so I don't even know. I don't even know.

• 19:22Speaker 02

  Fireworks, bro, fireworks.

• 19:28Jack Rhysider?

  At some point, the people at Walmart caught them. And they put them in a room and interrogated them and told them, don't ever come back here again. But nothing ever came of that.

• 19:38Speaker 02

  I can talk about this now because the statute of limitations ran out, except my dick. There are no except my dick, so.

• 19:43Jack Rhysider?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 19:45Speaker 02

  Bust a pad.

• 19:46Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, don't say anything that's gonna get you in trouble here.

• 19:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I make sure the statute of limitations has ran out.

• 19:52Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, and I should say that my journalistic ethics or policy here is that anything you tell me in the past, I'm not going to tell anyone except for whatever goes out publicly, right? But if you tell me that you might like harm someone in the future or commit some crime in the future, then that puts me in a moral pickle where I'm just like, man, I could have prevented like.

• 20:14Speaker 02

  You have a moral obligation to do it right.

• 20:15Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, so don't tell, don't get me involved in any of this shit.

• 20:20Speaker 02

  I'm gonna go kill some pedos, you're not gonna tell me?

• 20:22Jack Rhysider?

  Don't tell me what you're gonna do in the future, that's all I'm saying.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  If I was going to.

• 20:27Jack Rhysider?

  I know.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Pedophiles, you wouldn't tell them? Because it's not morally right to go tell them to go kill some pedophiles.

• 20:34Jack Rhysider?

  Well, have you heard like if you tell someone your plan, they're part of the conspiracy at that point? Just because you tell them?

• 20:42Speaker 02

  Do you know the feds give out one person conspiracies?

• 20:46Jack Rhysider?

  What?

• 20:47Speaker 02

  I have a homegirl that was locked up in the feds, she was on a one person conspiracy.

• 20:51Jack Rhysider?

  Oh my gosh, that's.

• 20:52Speaker 02

  Phone conversations and shit.

• 20:55Jack Rhysider?

  Man, fireworks is right. All right, let's get back on track. Okay, so that plan didn't work. And it was time for them to try something new.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  We started OJH crew online gangster hackers and shit. We had, so we had like the original 419 scammers from Nigeria and shit. We had some of them in our crew. Like, it's crazy, like the people that you meet online, bro, from all different regions of the world and just different cultures and it's amazing how, but you get on the internet and you know, we're all alike, everybody's everybody. You can be wherever you want to be on the internet. We fucking messaged this one China dude.

• 21:34Speaker 02

  And they did that back then, they did like fake iPhones and shit like that.

• 21:39Speaker 02

  And he had MSRs and uh skimmers and embossers and tippers and all that shit.

• 21:48Jack Rhysider?

  This is equipment to steal credit cards and print credit cards. The MSR is a mag stripe reader, writer, so if you get a blank credit card, you could program it with the MSR. They studied up on how all this works and they thought, "Yeah, if we get a skimmer, we could collect our own credit cards. No need to buy dumps from others." So he was like, "All right, let's buy a skimmer."

• 22:13Speaker 02

  Bro, he had like a hell of a deal, bro. It was like, you gotta buy 10 of them though. And they were like $250 a piece back then. We saved up, got $2,500 and ordered them. And we got a couple of MSRs, but we got most of the skimmers though. Like I had gas pump ones and everything.

• 22:30Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, okay. So did you try putting those skimmers on gas pumps and stuff?

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Oh yeah, we had them on gas pumps.

• 22:36Jack Rhysider?

  How'd, okay, okay. I've never talked with anybody who's ran that. So tell me this process. Was gas pumps your number one place you put them on or did you put them on other things?

• 22:46Speaker 02

  I mean, we had ones on ATM machines too, uh, back in the days too. But the problem was with them was trying to get the PIN recorded, right? Like they didn't have the 3D printers now where you could print something that looks just like it, that's paper thin, that you could put right over the top of it. You know, they didn't have shit like that back then.

• 23:08Jack Rhysider?

  So it cost $200 for one skimmer?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  And that was cheap. That was cheap.

• 23:13Jack Rhysider?

  Okay.

• 23:14Speaker 02

  It was like 600 back then.

• 23:16Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so yeah, tell me about putting your first skimmer.

• 23:22Speaker 02

  That particular order was the ones that were about the size of a Bic lighter. And they're wireless.

• 23:27Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  And then Bluetooth on them.

• 23:29Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so tell me about putting your first skimmer on a machine.

• 23:33Speaker 02

  Well, it was a gas station right around the corner from my house that I've been going to my whole life. So, uh, I mean, I used to like clean up the parking lot and shit when I was a kid at this gas station. So it's like, uh, they would never fuck with me about anything anyways. So I would just put it in there and let it sit for about a week.

• 23:55Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, so you're not even nervous driving up to it like, okay, here we go. We're gonna put this in. You're just like- Mug ladder, got the-

• 24:02Speaker 02

  I already got the keys for all the gas pumps. Like, I live in the hood, so it's like, you can get whatever you want to get into anything.

• 24:11Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so he leaves this skimmer on the gas pump for a few days. And in case you don't know what a skimmer is, it fits right over the credit card reader on the gas pump. So when you go to swipe your card to buy some gas, his skimmer will also read your card and save the data from it. It's meant to look just like a regular scanner on the gas pump so that you don't notice it. And this is why every time I go to swipe my card anywhere, I first grab the reader and wiggle it hard to see if it comes off, because then it would be a skimmer. After a few days, he comes back and pulls it off the pump, and then he has to learn how to get the data off it.

• 24:43Speaker 02

  Okay, so you can either unplug it and hook it up to your computer USB, and it just downloads, it just opens it up, and it's just like a ball. Or you can Bluetooth them. The later ones have Bluetooth. You just go Bluetooth it, download.

• 24:57Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so when you grabbed it and you connected it to your computer, what'd you find?

• 25:02Speaker 02

  Track one and track two information. And, bro, the reason they caught me with all them victims and 6,500 victims from over 100 different banks is because I was trying to crack the code, bro.

• 25:15Jack Rhysider?

  Crack the code?

• 25:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, the algorithm. I'm trying to generate dumps.

• 25:19Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  So you just wanted- If I got each one of them, I'd be able to figure out the sequence, you know what I mean?

• 25:25Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, because it's just a 16-digit number plus a CVV code. If you could figure out a way to find those-

• 25:34Speaker 02

  I mean, they already got generated for the numbers. So if you could just find how they get the CVV code, you'd be good.

• 25:40Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, and that's what you were trying to do.

• 25:42Speaker 02

  That's how you will need today, right now today.

• 25:45Jack Rhysider?

  So I actually tried that same thing when I was a teenager, like, hey, this is just a 16-digit code, let me just type in gibberish into this form and see if I could order shit. And of course, none of it worked, and I was like, okay, this is beyond me.

• 25:56Speaker 02

  No, you didn't, didn't want it.

• 25:57Jack Rhysider?

  Well, I just was doing it random, trying to think, like, how do they know if this is a real card? I'm just gonna type in whatever. And they somehow knew, but-

• 26:05Speaker 02

  I always just used mom and dad's credit card to find out, and then I knew the cards work like that. And then, so I just started stealing everybody else's now.

• 26:11Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, okay, so-

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Cards like that, like that.

• 26:15Jack Rhysider?

  How many cards did you get from that gas pump? Oh, probably like, uh, eighty-three or something like that, if I remember correctly.

• 26:21Jack Rhysider?

  Dang.

• 26:23Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, it was like for three days, four days.

• 26:24Jack Rhysider?

  And what'd you do with those cards?

• 26:27Jack Rhysider?

  I sat on them. I didn't do nothing with them.

• 26:29Jack Rhysider?

  Why?

• 26:30Jack Rhysider?

  I was scared.

• 26:31Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah. They just weren't familiar enough with how all this worked. The cards they were punching in at Walmart were just random numbers that they were trying. And the dumps that they were buying, well, they knew that those were already stolen by someone else. But these cards, they were skimming themselves, that's new to them. They never stole credit cards before like this. So they just had to sit on them and let the heat cool down for a little while. We're gonna take a quick ad break here, but stay with us because wherever you think this story is going, I promise you, it gets way crazier than that.

• 27:05Jack Rhysider?

  This episode is sponsored by Arctic Wolf. Everyone is slapping AI-powered on their security tools. But Arctic Wolf took a different approach. Instead of duct taping AI onto the SOC, they rebuilt the SOC around AI and called it the Aurora Superintelligence Platform. If you ever tried to build your own AI pipeline, you know the pain. Data engineering, model tuning, governance, validation. Aurora removes all of it. You deploy it and instantly inherit the intelligence, guardrails, and operational maturity of one of the world's largest agentic SOC. Under the hood, Aurora is running a fully agentic architecture they call the Swarm of Experts. These agents are battle-tested inside the world's largest commercial SOC and only ship when they can outperform human-only workflows.

• 27:51Jack Rhysider?

  And its integration is seamless as Aurora works within Arctic Wolf's concierge experience, allowing your security team to focus on higher-value strategy and proactive risk reduction. If you want to see what a real trustworthy agent-led SOC looks like, not the marketing slide version, go to arcticwolf.com/darknet. That's arcticwolf.com/darknet.

• 28:16Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, Chicken Express. That's what this chapter is called. Chicken Express. I've never been there, but I'm looking at it on Google Maps. And there's actually a bunch of them in Texas. It's a drive-through, fast food, chicken joint. And during busy times, they have two lanes for cars to line up in. But in order to take the order from that second lane, a cashier needs to walk out to the car and take the order, and then also take their money so that they can go into the building and charge the credit card or get change for them. Nathan's brother's girlfriend, Elizabeth, got a job at Chicken Express taking orders.

• 28:49Speaker 02

  And what he would do is, is he had this little girlfriend, and like, you know, manipulation and all that bullshit. So you know how that goes.

• 29:00Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 29:01Speaker 02

  You convince any woman to do whatever you want. They're just like they can convince every man to do what they want him to do. So she was working at Chicken Express. And we were like, okay.

• 29:14Jack Rhysider?

  They had the skimmers from before, and they were like, "You've got this great big apron on. Put the skimmer in your front apron pocket. And then when you take the person's credit card into the building to swipe it, also swipe it in the skimmer, in your apron."

• 29:28Speaker 02

  The machine to charge the card was inside the restaurant, so that she would take the card, leave, and come back, which would give her ample opportunity to stick it in that pocket and swipe it through that skimmer. Because it don't matter which way you go on the skimmer or anything, it's gonna record you.

• 29:42Jack Rhysider?

  All right, I get it. They basically were just grabbing a copy of everyone's credit card that came through that Chicken Express lane. Her first day doing it, she got eight cards. Not bad. But again, they're too scared to use them. They've just stolen eight cards. Take it easy, don't do anything with it. His brother was the one who was grabbing the cards off of Elizabeth's skimmer and keeping it on his computer. He didn't want to share them with Nathan.

• 30:09Speaker 02

  Right. Well, we were just gonna save them up for a while. And what we really were planning was to just start selling dumps.

• 30:16Jack Rhysider?

  Okay.

• 30:18Speaker 02

  But I had other ideas in my head. My little brother had his ideas, I had mine.

• 30:24Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, what was your brother's ideas?

• 30:26Speaker 02

  Well, he, he, he didn't want to use them.

• 30:29Speaker 02

  I wanted to use them.

• 30:29Jack Rhysider?

  Why? Okay, I, this is what I don't understand. Both of you have now spent $2,500 to buy skimmers. You've both gotten dozens of cards from it and then you're like, let's not use this for anything.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  Well, because we didn't know nothing about that side of it. You know what I mean? Like the dump side of it. We knew what track one, track two was. And we knew how to put them on cards and we knew all that stuff, but we didn't know like none of the, uh, I guess we were trying to do OPSEC on it. You know what I'm saying? Like I figured it out.

• 31:00Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah. Okay. Okay. So you're just being hesitant.

• 31:03Speaker 02

  If we were to use these. We were back in it, hacking it.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  Trying to figure out how, how, how their system worked. We didn't know if we use one of these, they're gonna come bust busting down our door right there or not. But you know.

• 31:17Jack Rhysider?

  That's right. Yeah.

• 31:20Speaker 02

  So we were more cautious about it.

• 31:23Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, fair enough. But she keeps skimming them.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, she kept skimming them for months.

• 31:30Jack Rhysider?

  So they just sat on them, not sure what to do. Just play it cool. Until one day Nathan decided to use one.

• 31:40Speaker 02

  One day I used like two or three, like we were stuck somewhere or something to handle gas or something. And because we had an elaborate setup inside a vehicle to where we could make cards on our goat. We'll get to that in a little later.

• 31:49Jack Rhysider?

  Okay.

• 31:50Speaker 02

  But, uh, we, we, we, we didn't have no dumps, so we couldn't get none or we couldn't get no big, uh, back then it was liberty reserve. We didn't have no liberty reserve to buy any. Our web money. Uh, so we decided to use a couple of them. They were bangers. I'm talking about bangers, bangers, bangers.

• 32:10Jack Rhysider?

  He was storing these cards in a Google Doc and he took a few and got some blank credit cards. And he used his MSR advice to write the credit card details to the card. At first he just tried to use it on a gas pump and it worked. He got gas with this card and then he went into a store and tried buying stuff. And he says with just a few cards.

• 32:30Jack Rhysider?

  He was able to buy $3,000 worth of stuff. Like, everyone hit, bro. Everyone hit. Of course they hit because their cards you stole are fresh.

• 32:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 32:39Jack Rhysider?

  Because the ones you were buying, the ones you were buying online were sold to four other people before they were sold to you, right? Yeah, I know you didn't know that, but that's why they weren't working. Yours were fresh.

• 32:50Speaker 02

  We probably got scammed eight times before we ever got one that worked.

• 32:52Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

• 32:54Speaker 02

  You know? But yeah, so we didn't know that they worked like that. So once we used them fresh ones, my brother didn't want to use no more. And I'm like, fuck him. I gotta, I'm going, my wheels are spinning in my head. And once I see the taste of money, it's like, I'm not worried about pussy. I'm not worried about drugs. You ever been addicted to making money? Let's talk about being addicted to making money. Because it's an addiction.

• 33:18Jack Rhysider?

  He had some of these cards from the skimmers that he was putting around town, but it was his brother who had the most amount of cards. From all the cards, his girlfriend Elizabeth was skimming at Chicken Express, but his brother wasn't sharing those cards with Nathan. And his mind was racing with how to get those from his brother.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  I don't, I don't know if you, how much of the federal paperwork you read or if you looked at anything up, but there was like 58 people that weren't indicted.

• 33:41Jack Rhysider?

  58?

• 33:42Speaker 02

  And they only got three of us. Well, they had four of us, but only three of us.

• 33:45Jack Rhysider?

  Well, you have to tell me when those other 55 come in to play because we've only listed three so far.

• 33:51Speaker 02

  They've already, they've already been involved with all that. We're already making cards. Well, by that time, we're already making cards. We're already deep in the game by then. This is when we get the fresh dumps and we're using them fresh dumps that were scammed. That's what our bank case started because of.

• 34:05Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so the, the other 50 people were involved before this?

• 34:09Speaker 02

  Not necessarily all 50 of them. Like, my brother had these people and I had my people. My brother had like four or five people and I had like 30 people.

• 34:18Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, and, and these other people, what were their roles?

• 34:22Speaker 02

  Shoppers.

• 34:23Jack Rhysider?

  See, Nathan had a Fargo printer, which is a classic printer used to make IDs. Think, membership cards, or student IDs, employee badges. But he was using it to make credit cards. And he was making them look really good.

• 34:37Speaker 02

  I'd print the cards, and then program the mag strip. And that, my, my, my, my little key trick was, so they don't have to ask you for ID. Just put your fucking picture in the corner of the fucking card.

• 34:47Jack Rhysider?

  Do you know, so, so you had a guy, that would, that you took a picture of him, and you would print it on the card, to make it look like a, like a legitimate card is. It wasn't just a blank card. You were printing on the card to make it look as good as possible.

• 35:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:02Jack Rhysider?

  And then he was taking it in the store, and like, "Look, my picture's on the card. How, how can you say that's not me?"

• 35:07Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 35:08Jack Rhysider?

  Wow, that's, uh, that's going the, the lengths there.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  Like, this was like in 2008, so, uh, seven and eight. So like, nobody was doing it like that back then.

• 35:18Jack Rhysider?

  So he would go around his neighborhood, and hit up people he thought might want the extra cash, and have them come over. And then he'd make a bunch of credit cards with their photo on it, and have them go out, and shop with stolen credit cards, and then bring back any of the stuff you buy with it.

• 35:33Speaker 02

  So what I'll do, since I'm providing the cards, I'd say, I figured the cards were, if they're bound to dump, and they're making the card. So I'd charge a hundred dollars for the card, basically, right?

• 35:41Jack Rhysider?

  Okay.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  It's what, so, say they're gonna be making three thousand dollars worth of merchandise. I can only sell it for half price. So that's fifteen hundred out the gate. I'm taking a hundred off for each card.

• 35:52Speaker 02

  And I'm paying you cash the rest.

• 35:54Jack Rhysider?

  Hot damn, so people...

• 35:57Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, okay, that's a pretty good incentive. For, I could see why a bunch of people would want to get in on this, in Texas.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Well, and, and then plus, you know, like, I was in the hood, so everybody's broke. Nobody has nice jobs and shit like that. Their, all their parents are crackheads, or whores, or prostitutes, or pimps. Or the pushers, the pimps are the pushers.

• 36:17Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so all that was going around for a while with crappy stolen credit cards. A lot that didn't work. But now, Nathan is like, "Man, I'm sitting on a bunch of banger cards. It's time to start making some real money with these." But his brother was the one, who had the bulk of them, and he wasn't sharing.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  So my brother didn't want to, uh, use them. And so, I hacked my brother. Fuck. I mean, I hacked him and started using them.

• 36:42Jack Rhysider?

  Wait, you hacked your brother?

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Yeah. Why not? You got something I want, I, yeah.

• 36:50Speaker 02

  I mean.

• 36:50Jack Rhysider?

  How'd you do that?

• 36:51Speaker 02

  I mean, I just got on his computer and fucking and stole his file. I knew, you know, with that, it's my little brother, you know, so obviously he's uh learned from me. So he's gonna think kinda like I think. So it wasn't that hard to find the text document and where it was hidden. And I've I've seen him, uh, you know, cuz it's his girlfriend that is doing it, right?

• 37:12Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  So, and then, uh, yeah, I didn't I didn't go to prison the first time till I was thirty. So I made a pretty good while before I got in trouble. I did good for myself.

• 37:26Jack Rhysider?

  What age do you think your daughter is gonna be before she goes to prison for the first time?

• 37:30Speaker 02

  My kid did not go into prison.

• 37:32Jack Rhysider?

  Okay.

• 37:33Speaker 02

  One of them's graduated college. The other one's in college. My sixteen year old's finishing graduate at high school with her nursing shit done uh this year.

• 37:42Jack Rhysider?

  Do you have a better neighborhood that they're living in compared to where you grew up?

• 37:46Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, I mean, this, I mean, it's Dallas, bro. You know, it's a city. So, I mean, it's like, bad shit happens everywhere.

• 37:56Jack Rhysider?

  You you well, you you put it as like a badge of honor, like, man, I didn't go to prison till I was over thirty. So I did pretty good.

• 38:03Speaker 02

  Most people are either dead or or in prison by the time they're thirty in my neighborhood. I grew up in Old Cliff, though. See, my my kids live in Dallas with their mother.

• 38:10Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 38:11Speaker 02

  She's Garland. I mean, it's it's it's a little better, I mean, but it's still the city, you know, fast life.

• 38:18Jack Rhysider?

  What did what did your dad do? Like, was he a carpenter or a musician?

• 38:23Speaker 02

  It's called fire systems and restaurants and paint booths.

• 38:27Jack Rhysider?

  Did he ever break the law? Did he? What was his? What? At what age did he go to prison?

• 38:32Speaker 02

  He went to he went to jail uh when he was a kid one time for running from the police cuz he had a race car. He had a Dodge Challenger.

• 38:38Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, I mean, when you say the fast life, it really does resonate with me because there is that everything's just moving and changing and things are happening and it feels uncomfortable because it's like, I'm not ready for this, but man, everyone else is doing it. So I better get ready for this cuz I got no choice.

• 38:52Speaker 02

  That was like, it's like you're in a set, a tank full of sharks. So you become a shark or you get eaten.

• 39:00Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, we need to get back on track. All right, with the stolen file that he got from his brother, he had a whole new chest of cards to start cracking into. And when I think about the supply chain here, it's pretty wild. Elizabeth stole these cards from people at Chicken Express, and then she gave them to her boyfriend. Actually, I think they got married sometime in there as well. So she gave them to her husband. Then Nathan steals the cards from him, and then he prints them onto cards and gives them to shoppers and swipers. And then they go out and they buy things from the stores with them. And then they sell those things back to Nathan for 30% of its value. And then Nathan tries to sell it for 50% of its value on the streets. So Nathan was a lot of people's hookups for just half-priced stuff. But despite being complex and long, the system was working.

• 39:45Jack Rhysider?

  With Nathan working with dozens of shoppers that were just going around buying stuff all the time, it was endless work for him. He was making cards all day and reselling things and buying stuff. But he was making good money doing it all. And at this point, his brother realized that Nathan stole the cards and was unhappy about it, but was joining him on some of this anyway.

• 40:06Speaker 02

  He, I mean, he had always joined. He said, "I was doing too much because I was doing too much."

• 40:11Jack Rhysider?

  Anyway, he didn't want to miss out on all the money that he could get from these cards that his wife stole.

• 40:16Speaker 02

  In order to be a good swiper, you gotta believe in your heart and in your mind and in your body that this is your credit card, this is your money. If you don't, you won't do good. You'll be one of them people that pays for the shit and then they ask you for ID and you burn off. And you just burned yourself. It's all about how you talk to people. It's all about your finesse game, really.

• 40:34Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 40:35Speaker 02

  And who you pick to check you out.

• 40:38Jack Rhysider?

  Did you teach people how to do that game?

• 40:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, you got to.

• 40:42Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, teach me. I want to be a good swiper.

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Okay, so I'm teaching you to be a swiper. We'll give you a couple, probably like two or three cards, right?

• 40:51Jack Rhysider?

  Yep.

• 40:51Speaker 02

  And there you go. I'm gonna tell you what to go in there and get. Like, I plan people's routes out for them and everything. Like, back then it was MapQuest, right? I'd plan their whole route out for them, tell them what stores to go to and everything, but I'd have it all mowed down and everything. So we'd go to the store and I, I, you would come with me first and I'd show you how to do it. I'd never, you never look up at a camera, never, never, I, I always wear a hat. So, and I'm always looking down at my phone. Always look, so always be on your phone. That was the rule one for one. Always be on your phone. Cause you're looking down at your phone, you're always gonna look down, right?

• 41:21Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 41:22Speaker 02

  So you're not gonna be looking up to where a camera can get a clear picture of your face. That's why I get my federal document, documents, uh, it says two hundred and five white males, two hundred and five white males. There's always me and my brother.

• 41:37Jack Rhysider?

  Yep.

• 41:37Speaker 02

  But it was under two hundred and five white males. That's all it was. And always cover up all your tattoos. Wear black, wear a hat. You know, things that are gonna, uh, uh, uh, you know, make it not so obvious of who you are. But without not making it so obvious that you're hiding your identity, right?

• 41:56Jack Rhysider?

  Yep.

• 41:56Speaker 02

  Uh, I liked, I liked when I, when I go get gift cards, I'd like, uh, putting on some cut raws. And getting them all dirty and shit, look like I've been working on the oil rig all day and I'm coming here to get twenty five hundred dollar gift cards for my workers, cause they pass a safety test.

• 42:12Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  So then it doesn't look so obvious. Then my brother's got cut raws with me. He's with me. My card don't work, right?

• 42:21Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 42:22Speaker 02

  Bro, you're running to get on your card yet? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm gonna get on my card. Pay for my shit, bro. And as soon as my shit gets on there, I'll pay, I'll pay you back. So we're, he's at one register and I'm at the next register and we're working together at the same time still too.

• 42:35Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 42:36Speaker 02

  So we're banging them double and about like we, uh, like when I was doing that, bro, I, I went to, I went to all the way to Missouri and back down and got like thirty thousand dollars worth of gift cards. The dude sold them, uh, they were like, they were for eBay and PayPal. And he had to buy a vet with him, uh, up eBay.

• 42:55Jack Rhysider?

  So over time, the shoppers and swipers and his network would be bringing him tons of stuff. A lot was gift cards, but sometimes it was TVs and laptops and video game consoles, anything that would have a high resale value.

• 43:07Speaker 02

  Uh, what I'd do is I'd have a storage and I'd fill it up and, uh, there's pictures of it in my discovery packet. And I'd fill it up and then I had a couple of Mexicans that, that are cartel. They take all this shit back to Mexico, bro. They'll buy this shit for cash. Cause it's, it's easier to transport this shit across the border than it is cash. I'm gonna lose it getting across the border. I'll be able to drive right across.

• 43:28Jack Rhysider?

  It's crazy how much logistics went into his operation. But the more cards he would get from skimming, the more cards he could just print and then give to shoppers and they would be constantly bringing him stuff. He had it all dialed in.

• 43:40Speaker 02

  Bro, at the end of it, I was making like $5,000 cash to a profit.

• 43:45Jack Rhysider?

  But of course, in the wake of all his activity, it would mean that tons of cards were reported stolen and purchases were traced to certain locations. And authorities started putting pieces together.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Napa, Texas, bro, so basically half the United States.

• 43:58Jack Rhysider?

  Yes. This article says, "This case is being investigated by the Tyler Police Department, U.S. Secret Service, the Smith County Sheriff's Office, the Henderson County Sheriff's Office, the Athens Police Department, the Caney City Police Department, the Longview Police Department, the Mesquite Police Department, the Terrell Police Department, the Waco Police Department, the Corsican Police Department, the Waxichachi Police Department, the Van Zandt County Precinct Four Constable Walmart Stores Associate Asset Protection and Southside Bank."

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's crazy, right?

• 44:34Jack Rhysider?

  It wasn't too hard for them to all look at the cards for a common purchase point, which would indicate where they were likely stolen. And the cops saw that Chicken Express and gas pumps were where these cards were getting stolen from. Eventually, this meant the cops had an arrest warrant for Nathan. And it didn't seem like they knew exactly what he was up to, but they had a strong suspicion that he was doing something wrong. And for some reason, right around this time, Nathan broke up with his wife. They got a divorce. And she was the mother of his kids. She wasn't clean from crime herself, though. She got caught punching in those credit cards at Walmart, remember? And the police gave her a stern talking to for that one. But for whatever reason, the two of them broke up and were done with that relationship.

• 45:14Speaker 02

  I met this bad bitch, bro. So I had a bitch living in the house with me. And I met this bad bitch, bro. So I bring a bad bitch home with me and I kick my other bitch out the night before, bro, that I got raided. Brothers, so I'm in there making some cards this morning. It's like 6 o'clock in the morning, bro. And the dude comes over from across the street to get some cards, making some cards. Five minutes later, bro. I hear his banging on the door and they kicking the door. I fucking throw the laptop on the floor and I jump up. He's in there and I come out, come into the living room. They fucking got a gun to my goddamn daughter's head, bro. She's like five years old, bro.

• 45:47Jack Rhysider?

  What?

• 45:47Speaker 02

  And they're telling me to get down on the ground. But I said, get that fucking gun out of my daughter's face, you fucking bitch. I'm like, I'm outraged, bro. Like, I'm already freaking the fuck out.

• 45:56Jack Rhysider?

  His girlfriend and dad come home and they see Nathan in handcuffs in the front yard.

• 46:00Speaker 02

  Then the Secret Service, they started asking me questions. I'm like, I ain't got nothing to say. And they're like, well, they found stolen motorcycles here, drugs, uh, everything. Delaying credit cards. They raided the neighbor's house across the street to see if they saw me. They found a fucking baby white container with like a thousand cards in it.

• 46:20Speaker 02

  They put them all on the news. They have pictures of them all, all out on a table like they fucking, you know how they do. They parade that shit around like they did something good.

• 46:29Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 46:31Speaker 02

  I was just a modern day Robin Hood, bro.

• 46:34Speaker 02

  That's all.

• 46:37Jack Rhysider?

  No, you were not the Robin Hood. You weren't giving, you weren't giving anything to the poor. You were the one making all the money. You were like, I want more money. I want more money.

• 46:46Speaker 02

  It looks like I made all the money because I had so many people working for me. But everybody else made just as much money as I did.

• 46:52Jack Rhysider?

  So the cops continued to question him, but he just kept quiet the whole time. They told him, look, if you tell us the names of everyone involved, then we'll let you go. But he didn't say anything. He didn't give up anyone's names. And I'm not sure if they even knew he was the ringleader of all this or not.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  They were like, well, uh, we don't have anything charged you with today. I was able to have a search warrant. Uh, you'll be receiving a nightman at a later date and left.

• 47:15Jack Rhysider?

  And they, they didn't take you. They just left you.

• 47:18Speaker 02

  They'll take nobody to jail. They tried, they were trying to take my Escalade, but they couldn't take my Escalade because it wasn't in my name.

• 47:25Speaker 02

  They were putting nothing in my name. Thank God.

• 47:28Jack Rhysider?

  So, okay. So what kind of cars did you have at the time?

• 47:32Speaker 02

  I had a Jaguar, Lexus and a Cadillac Escalade.

• 47:35Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah. And they didn't, they couldn't take any of the cars?

• 47:39Speaker 02

  No, my Lexus was in my best friend's name. The Escalade was in the cop's name I bought it from and my Jaguars in my other homeboy's name.

• 47:45Jack Rhysider?

  So you were, but you were buying cars with this? What else were you doing with the money?

• 47:49Speaker 02

  I would buy electronics, uh, jewelry. I had lots of jewelry and lots of guns.

• 47:55Jack Rhysider?

  Drugs?

• 47:56Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, lots of drugs. Yeah, I always had drugs. What?

• 48:01Jack Rhysider?

  Of course. What happened? Sorry to ask.

• 48:04Speaker 02

  When they took me out for riddling, what else did I have to do besides help medicate?

• 48:07Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, they gave you drugs at the beginning.

• 48:10Speaker 02

  Methamphetamines when I was six years old. What did they expect me to turn into?

• 48:14Jack Rhysider?

  The cops did take all the blank cards, the gift cards, writers, and stuff that looked illegal. I saw a picture of it. They laid it all out on a table for the media to see. One picture I counted, over two hundred gift cards just spread out all over the table. And at the time, he was still living with his parents, his mom and dad, and his kids. His little brother was living there, but his brother got a sense that Nathan was doing just too much and was gonna move out. And his brother was still mad that he stole the file off his computer.

• 48:43Speaker 02

  He's mad as fuck.

• 48:45Jack Rhysider?

  Even though his brother did some of this activity himself, too, there was just too much going on for him. It was getting too hot, and his little brother moved out just before the cops raided the place.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  He wasn't here, bro. He already burnt off because he said I was doing too much. I mean, ultimately, we would've got caught anyways. I just kind of put us in HOE line and got us there quicker.

• 49:03Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, but their past of punching in credit cards at stores, buying dumps online, and getting dozens of people to help be shoppers, they were doomed from that alone. The Chicken Express cards that they were using like this, it just sped up the process of them getting caught.

• 49:18Speaker 02

  So after they raided us, I had twenty thousand dollars stash that they didn't find. It was in a fucking, one of the big flashlights that has the big, big square batteries in it. Had five rolls of five thousand dollars a piece wrapped up rubber band in there in my dad's room. Didn't search, didn't even search my parents' room at all.

• 49:33Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, all right, so what did you do after that? You stopped cold turkey? You became a good boy?

• 49:38Speaker 02

  No, I smashed the gas on that bitch ass.

• 49:42Jack Rhysider?

  Smash the gas?

• 49:43Speaker 02

  The cops were already after me. They already know what I'm doing. The fuck am I gonna stop for? Marty in trouble? Marty, car.

• 49:50Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, my God.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  I'm a curious for one, so it's like I'm all or nothing. I'm gonna give it a hundred and ten percent, or I'm gonna give it no percent.

• 50:00Speaker 02

  Same thing I do with my relationships.

• 50:05Speaker 02

  But I'll go back to the childhood still like you were talking about earlier, you know? It's you apply what you've learned to everything.

• 50:15Jack Rhysider?

  So what he knows is how to make money and be invisible. So he grabs the $20,000 and goes on the run.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  Probably like three days later, I went to Dallas. And I got me, I got me, I was staying at hotels at first. And then I got me a spot, little house that I was able to rent somebody else's name. Got electricity and shit going on, somebody else's name, all that. And started making credit cards there. My whole boy, my right hand man that lived with me, he sold drugs. I sell credit cards. So I never had to buy drugs anymore. And he never had to buy credit cards no more. Worked out.

• 50:50Jack Rhysider?

  Now during that time, the police were also looking for his brother. But he was hiding out too. But one day, his brother made a mistake with one of the stolen credit cards.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  Okay, I have it in my notes that he was at an arcade messing around with quarters.

• 51:06Speaker 02

  He got like $200 worth of quarters at the fucking automated quarter machine with the credit card.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  With a stolen credit card?

• 51:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:13Speaker 03

  And why was this suspicious at all?

• 51:18Speaker 03

  Because people don't buy $200 worth of quarters?

• 51:20Speaker 02

  I mean, not and put them in their pocket and leave.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  Why would you put $200 worth of quarters in your pocket? It is, I guess you're right.

• 51:27Speaker 02

  I would have been playing video games.

• 51:30Speaker 03

  So he just goes into the arcade, grabs $200 worth of quarters and is like, I'm going to see you. And the mall worker calls the cops?

• 51:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:41Speaker 03

  And says, this guy's weird. He put, he just bought $200 worth of coins and he's leaving quarters.

• 51:46Speaker 02

  He went shopping too. He had a whole bunch of shit under the car outside the mall. Had a whole bunch of shit under the car that he had been shopping in there all day too.

• 51:52Speaker 03

  Just follow the trail of quarters through the mall, you'll catch them.

• 51:58Speaker 02

  I think like shit, that's easy two hundred dollars. It looks like the Mac that you get out for card.

• 52:02Jack Rhysider?

  So this is how his brother got caught. And since they caught him in the act, they took him right to jail.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  So they ended up catching my brother probably around November. And they got arrested in Dallas and I was, I had already knew a bondsman, so I called the bondsman and had the bondsman go get him right out. And he got out.

• 52:19Jack Rhysider?

  His brother was out of jail, but not for long. Stealing from the mall is one thing, but running a huge stolen credit card ring is another. So the feds came and arrested his brother and took him to jail a week later.

• 52:29Speaker 02

  Oh, they, I couldn't bond him out the feds. When the feds got him and the US marshal detainer was on him. Yeah, and they ain't no bonding out the feds, bro. I had a hundred thousand dollars cash to try to get him out and they told me I was fucked. So I ended up paying twenty thousand dollars for a federal lawyer. That was the biggest waste of money ever.

• 52:42Jack Rhysider?

  So your brother's stuck in jail.

• 52:46Speaker 02

  I can't get him out.

• 52:47Jack Rhysider?

  You can't get him out?

• 52:48Speaker 02

  I mean, you know, this is my best friend, you know?

• 52:51Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:52Speaker 02

  My, my first best friend was my sister. She died when I was thirteen. She was killed in a drunk driving accident.

• 52:56Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, no.

• 52:57Speaker 02

  So then my little brother became my best friend, you know?

• 52:59Jack Rhysider?

  Uh, so was she, uh, a drunk driver hit her?

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:04Jack Rhysider?

  Were, were you in the car too?

• 53:05Speaker 02

  No, it was her and her boyfriend and then two other people in the other vehicle. All four of them were intoxicated.

• 53:12Jack Rhysider?

  Your sister was intoxicated too?

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, she was underage and she, uh, like I got a, we won a five million dollar lawsuit against Dennis Rodman, bro, but it was under LLC, so we'll never get another money.

• 53:22Jack Rhysider?

  Wait, how does Dennis Rodman come into this story?

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Well, it's not into the story. It's into the story of my sister dying. He, he on the bar that they were at drinking underage. And we, the investigator that went there, we got video of it and shit and we won in court.

• 53:36Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so was it the car that your sister was in that was the drunk driver or was it the other car?

• 53:43Speaker 02

  Both of them.

• 53:43Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, okay.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  But everybody was drunk in both cars.

• 53:47Jack Rhysider?

  Holy cow. What a, what a awful situation that is to lose your sister at thirteen.

• 53:53Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, it was true. That was, that was probably my first like real traumatic event in my life. And that's when I started using drugs. It's when I blamed God for everything. That's why, you know what I mean? Like, that's when my life really took a turn for the worse.

• 54:06Jack Rhysider?

  Really?

• 54:09Jack Rhysider?

  It hit you hard.

• 54:10Speaker 02

  Yeah. I mean, I, I, you know, getting a, getting a knock on the door at four o'clock in the morning and two police officers being there and you're, you're thirteen years old and you're answering the door to your mom and dad. Cause somebody's beating on the door at four o'clock in the morning.

• 54:24Speaker 02

  And then you're hearing this.

• 54:27Speaker 02

  So it's like.

• 54:30Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah. Our parents didn't know how to deal with losing a kid. So how could they help us cope with losing a sister?

• 54:38Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, right. They're probably losing their mind. They don't, they're grieving. They can't, they can't help you, right? You're, I didn't do that.

• 54:44Speaker 02

  Like, what are they gonna do to tell, what are they gonna do to help us?

• 54:48Jack Rhysider?

  So you had to find your own way, which is drugs.

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Right. That was my escape.

• 54:55Jack Rhysider?

  God damn.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  My escape from reality.

• 55:00Speaker 02

  And then once I figured out how to escape from reality, I mean, you escape from reality forever.

• 55:06Speaker 02

  And then this time I've been sober like five months.

• 55:10Jack Rhysider?

  You've been sober right now for the last five months?

• 55:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:12Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, good for you. Wow. That's hard.

• 55:16Speaker 02

  You know, it took me losing probably the love of my life to, uh, figure that out.

• 55:19Jack Rhysider?

  Wait, hold on. We started this call. You told me you had a bong in front of you.

• 55:22Speaker 02

  I do. I didn't say I smoked weed.

• 55:34Jack Rhysider?

  What are you smoking?

• 55:43Jack Rhysider?

  I don't know what to believe with you.

• 55:46Speaker 02

  I believe I just took a bong rip.

• 55:50Jack Rhysider?

  Sober for five months.

• 55:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:55Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so, um.

• 55:58Jack Rhysider?

  So your brother's in jail. You're, uh, you're stressed out on this. You're hiding out from the cops. Are, are, are you missing from the cops? Or like, are they asking you to come to court and you're like, nope, I'm not coming?

• 56:12Speaker 02

  I'm wanted. So my brother's baby mama, the, uh, Elizabeth, she's staying with my cousin in another house in Oak Cliff. And I get a call one day that she was talking to the, uh, the, the secret service. They're trying to get herself in. And I find out about it. I go over there and tell her to get in the car. She gets in the car. I tell her to give me her phone. She gives me her phone, take the battery out, SIM card out, throw it, she'll have to win, I'll break that bitch and have it throw it out the window until I ever catch talking to cops again, I'm a killer.

• 56:38Speaker 03

  Damn.

• 56:39Speaker 02

  They kidnapped her.

• 56:41Speaker 03

  What, you kidnapped Elizabeth?

• 56:43Speaker 02

  And then she started getting high on methamphetamines and now she's in jail still for methamphetamines. I turned her out. Hooked her life off.

• 56:49Speaker 03

  Wha- what? What?

• 56:52Speaker 02

  She didn't get high before. I got her high for the first time. She's been doing methamphetamines.

• 56:56Speaker 03

  Oh, my God. What?

• 56:58Speaker 02

  My brother got custody of both his sons because of his, uh, he can tell you all that stuff. But, yeah, he ended up getting custody of both of his sons because his baby mama was a piece of shit. My baby mama was a piece of shit too. She got back with a guy that molested my kids.

• 57:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, but you're the one who turned her into a piece of shit by getting her hooked on meth.

• 57:14Speaker 02

  It's not my fault. She stayed addicted.

• 57:18Speaker 03

  What is this? This is the, you need your own, you need your own TV show. We, someone needs to be, uh, following you with a camera.

• 57:26Speaker 02

  You were pulled my life off. We'd be, I'll be rich. We all be cool.

• 57:32Speaker 02

  Like, I tell you, I can't make this shit up.

• 57:34Speaker 03

  I know. Like, Jersey Shore would have nothing on you. You would just be like...

• 57:40Speaker 02

  And this is real life, right? All that shit that they do is fake scripted shit. Yeah.

• 57:44Jack Rhysider?

  So, the indictment comes out. It lists Nathan, his brother, and his brother's wife, Elizabeth, saying they were stealing credit cards from Chicken Express and then using those at Walmart. Nathan was still wanted, though. Missing, hiding out, and still making stolen credit cards.

• 57:58Speaker 02

  I had a, a budengara, a witch lady come from Mexico.

• 58:02Speaker 03

  A what?

• 58:03Speaker 02

  A budengara.

• 58:04Speaker 03

  What the hell?

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Yep. It's like a witch person, a witch doctor or something. No, that's, they worship Santa Muerte.

• 58:12Speaker 03

  Why would you get this?

• 58:14Speaker 02

  So they could come friend my house.

• 58:18Speaker 03

  How much did you pay them?

• 58:21Speaker 02

  I like 200 bucks. So, what happened was, so I was in there to burn that candle in my house, one of the Mexican candles, and it, and it stopped burning. So, my, my homie was still standing over there. The cops had came to the house looking for somebody, but it wasn't for me or for him or anything. It was some, uh, wrong house, basically. But I panicked. And so, I wasn't never going back there. And somebody called me and told me the candle was going out. I go to get the candle. The candle was going out. Never got the candle lit again. So, she could channel her spell and, uh, keep her spell protection over me. Uh, well, it didn't work. Uh, I was on fucking Channel 45811 News, uh, Most Wanted, uh, top 10 DFW Most Wanted by the US Marshals. And they're looking for me in my Ascleid. So, I drop my Ascleid off, got my Lexus.

• 59:05Speaker 02

  And uh, we went and got our OCS for Oak Cliff Swipers. We had a little swiping clip called Oak Cliff Swipers. And uh, we went and got our OCS tattoos, me, my cousin, and uh, one of my shoppers.

• 59:19Speaker 03

  Tattoos. You're on the run from the feds and you're like, guys, we need to stop and get tattoos on the way out of town.

• 59:28Speaker 03

  Oh, like Oak Hill Swipers.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  Oak Cliff.

• 59:33Speaker 03

  Oak Cliff Swipers.

• 59:35Speaker 02

  They got a song about it. It's called Oak Cliff, that's my hood.

• 59:46Speaker 02

  That needs to be the opening intro music. Oak Cliff, that's my hood.

• 59:53Speaker 02

  My main girlfriend shows up at the tattoo parlor. So I got both my bitches there.

• 59:57Speaker 03

  Oh, they didn't know about each other?

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, they knew about it. The side bitch knew about it. They didn't, the main bitch didn't like the side bitch. Side bitch didn't give a fuck.

• 1:00:04Speaker 03

  Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah, that's how it usually works.

• 1:00:08Speaker 02

  My cousin's telling me, I got you cuz. So I make both my bitches sit in the backseat. My cousin rides in the front seat with me. We go to my cousin's house. My side bitch goes in the house with me cuz my, my cousin and my main bitch don't get along. They hate each other.

• 1:00:21Speaker 02

  So she's like, you didn't come to my house.

• 1:00:25Speaker 02

  So this bitch is sitting outside my Lexus. I'm in the bed with my side bitch, my cousin's house. I wake up the next morning, make some cars, roll the blunt, go start looking for my cousin, roll the blunt. She goes, Nathan, the cops are here. My cousin, she had the doors opening in the front of the house. It was clean and shit. She seen the Secret Service car pull up. It was just Secret Service agents originally with one Dallas patrol car, uh, when they came to arrest me. And uh, I don't know how they got the anonymous tip there. I'm pretty sure it was uh, my main bitch's fucking mama. I'm about ninety-nine point nine percent sure. And uh, it's all good. You know, I was gonna get caught illegally anyway, so I'm glad it went down like it did and I didn't get hurt. Because I ran everybody out the house. My cousin's Mexican. She got like three kids at the house with her.

• 1:01:10Speaker 02

  I got, both my bitches are out of the house. I ran everybody out the house, put on my body armor, got my AR-15, loaded that bitch. I had ten thirty round clips. But I was ready for war. I didn't know what was happening. I thought I was going to prison for the rest of my life, bro.

• 1:01:23Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 1:01:25Speaker 02

  So I was ready to die.

• 1:01:28Jack Rhysider?

  So you cleared everyone else out of the house? And then you loaded up body armor and, and, uh, armed yourself with all the weapons you had?

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:01:37Jack Rhysider?

  And you, you flashed it out the windows and the door is like, hey, stay the, stay out.

• 1:01:42Speaker 02

  In screen front porch, bro. On the, underneath the carport. Okay. They had the screen on it though, that you could see out, but people couldn't see in, right?

• 1:01:50Jack Rhysider?

  Uh huh. Yeah, yeah. I know what you mean.

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  So I was sitting there watching them for six hours, bro, while they were surrounding my house. The tank pulling up in the front yard and putting the robot on the porch, throwing a phone in through the door, shooting flashbangs and tear gas. I'm sitting there watching these fucking idiots thinking they're tear gashing and flash banging me. And I'm sitting out here on the front porch watching these fucking idiots the whole time, bro.

• 1:02:07Jack Rhysider?

  Oh dang. Yeah. They didn't know you were on the porch.

• 1:02:11Speaker 02

  Picked them off. I mean, I want to get all of them. But I could have picked them off, bro, if I really wanted to. They wouldn't even know. I mean, after the first couple of shots, I mean, I would have got a couple of them before they got me.

• 1:02:21Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  I wouldn't drive a car like that. Not at that point in my life.

• 1:02:26Jack Rhysider?

  I mean, that sounds really intense. Uh, were you scared? Were you, were you tensed up? Were you high?

• 1:02:32Speaker 02

  I was hyperventilating. I was, uh, cold sweats. Like, it was, it was, it was, uh, it was a, an adrenaline rush and, uh,

• 1:02:43Speaker 02

  sadness and, uh, it's over with. All at the same time, you know?

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  So I, I just so fucked is I took some hydrocodone, I took some Xanax. Went in the house. Soon as I went in the house, my eyes started burning like a motherfucker, crying like a baby. So I fucking put on some big ass glasses, wrapped a towel around my head, got it wet. And went to the door and then I find this phone that they threw in through the window and I pick up the phone. The hospital negotiator gets on the phone, tell him, fuck you bitch, I don't want to talk to you. Uh, put, put, it's put Secret Service Agent Reeves on the phone. He said, yes, sir. He got on the phone. So Mr. Reeves, these Dallas police are going to kill me, bro. They, they're, they're treating, they're, look this, they got this tank out here in the front yard. They got the goddamn SWAT, they got the, uh, the command center band down at the end of the block.

• 1:03:30Jack Rhysider?

  There was, there was an actual tank in your yard?

• 1:03:32Speaker 02

  Bro, they had, they had snipers on the hospital across the street.

• 1:03:35Jack Rhysider?

  God damn. Okay, what, how did they know that you were like armed and dangerous in there? Were you, you must have showed them like, hey, I've got these weapons like through the window or something and stay the fuck back.

• 1:03:46Speaker 02

  Like three rounds into the ceiling and uh, I mean, I came to the door.

• 1:03:50Jack Rhysider?

  You shot the ceiling?

• 1:03:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:03:54Jack Rhysider?

  And they, and, and at the door, they saw, so they came all the way to the door and they saw you shooting the ceiling?

• 1:03:59Speaker 02

  They were in yard, they were in the yard within the tank, they had like turn on the tank, that they shoot tear gas, uh, they're like.

• 1:04:06Jack Rhysider?

  This is crazier than Waco.

• 1:04:08Speaker 02

  Secret Service, like they're very professional, bro, and they're, and they're very chill and laid back, bro. Like, I said, he said, I got, since this is a, since we don't know if there's anybody else in the house, you have to come out and surrender to them, but as soon as you surrender to them, I'm gonna come and get you. I said, that's your word? And he said, what do you, what are your demands? So, bro, I wanna talk to my kid and I wanna smoke some cigarettes and I just wanna call my parents and my kids, tell them I love them, tell everybody I love them. He's like, well, you come out peacefully, you got my word, you got that. I was like, that's, I was like, that's your word as a man? He's like, that's my word as a man. And uh, Slav surrendered peacefully after eight hours.

• 1:04:41Jack Rhysider?

  Holy mackerel, okay.

• 1:04:45Speaker 02

  And I didn't like that. That was for them, they were fixing to come in, was it like the next five minutes? They were, they were, they were, they were fixing to come in and get me. So I probably would have been dead.

• 1:04:55Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:57Jack Rhysider?

  Um, did they, did they honor their word?

• 1:05:00Speaker 02

  The Secret Service, they didn't do this. As soon as, I didn't even get put in handcuffs by the Dallas police. And he, when he arrested me, he put his tights on me and put him in the front. And he let me sit in the front seat with him when we left. When we drove off, I was in the front seat with him. And the other agent was behind me.

• 1:05:18Speaker 02

  And he gave me his cell phone, he said, call your kids. We got down to the grassy knoll where Kennedy got shot. Said, you're not gonna try to run, are you? I said, nope. He said, if you do, I'm gonna shoot you in the back. Let me sit down on the grassy knoll and smoke three cigarettes before he took me to Lucet.

• 1:05:34Jack Rhysider?

  Lou Starrett Justice Center is the main Dallas County jail. And as you could guess, he was facing tons and tons of charges at this point. They were slapping him with charges of things he didn't even do. Like anytime that there was a stolen credit card incident in Texas, he was getting charged with that.

• 1:05:49Speaker 02

  Exactly. One of the computers that had been purchased from us, they ended up finding it somewhere or something. And they found out it had some child pornography on it. And, uh, but my lawyer had a special investigator. And somebody had bought the laptop before us and taken it back to Walmart. And then my shopper purchased it.

• 1:06:11Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so at this point, your brother's in jail. His ex-wife Elizabeth's in jail. You're in jail.

• 1:06:21Speaker 02

  Yep. And Corey Davis is in jail too.

• 1:06:26Jack Rhysider?

  Corey Davis, let me see what I have on him. So this guy was an accomplice.

• 1:06:32Speaker 02

  He was the one that was getting credit cards that morning from him when we got raided originally.

• 1:06:36Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:39Speaker 02

  They had to cross the street for it. Dude couldn't feed his kids. Him and his wife lost their jobs and couldn't feed their kids, pay their bills or nothing. So I put him on and then they tell on me.

• 1:06:46Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, he was your neighbor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he was cashing for you and when the police got to him, he got scared. He just got scared for his own sake, man. He was like, I don't want to go to prison forever. What do you want to know? I mean, that's the thing about snitching is everyone says, don't snitch, no snitch. But then when it's like, well, you got 40 years in prison or you can snitch. And then suddenly the reality hits people.

• 1:07:08Speaker 02

  Well, I gotta look. I call my little brother because me and my ex-wife raised him. It's her little brother. And he just got five years for murder, but, uh...

• 1:07:16Jack Rhysider?

  What?

• 1:07:16Speaker 02

  I mean, uh, the dude that I was with him did the murder. And my little brother didn't know he was doing the murder.

• 1:07:23Jack Rhysider?

  I see.

• 1:07:23Speaker 02

  And he got out and blew somebody's head off on a motorcycle. My little brother only got five years. But he got like 15 years because he had a whole bunch of other shit too.

• 1:07:33Speaker 02

  But they know he wasn't part of the murder, so definitely in five years short.

• 1:07:36Jack Rhysider?

  Have you ever diagnosed yourself for any uh uh mental situations like ADHD or anything? Well, not diagnosed yourself, but have you been like, are you officially anything ADHD or?

• 1:07:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I have I have ADHD, dyslexia, uh intermittent explosive anger disorder, uh PTSD, extreme PTSD, extreme anxiety, um that's the, did I say bipolar one and two yet?

• 1:08:03Jack Rhysider?

  No.

• 1:08:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I got them, that's what they, that's what I've been diagnosed with by the doctor.

• 1:08:08Jack Rhysider?

  What's some of your favorite music musicians?

• 1:08:12Speaker 02

  Uh Tupac.

• 1:08:13Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:14Speaker 02

  I listen to rock music like death metal, like heavy, heavy, heavy, heavy death metal.

• 1:08:19Speaker 02

  You know, like, um, uh, you know, uh, Bromstein, Slipknot.

• 1:08:23Jack Rhysider?

  Slipknot, yeah. Okay, I was gonna say Slipknot, um.

• 1:08:28Speaker 02

  Breakshit music.

• 1:08:32Jack Rhysider?

  ICP?

• 1:08:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, I went to ICP concert, they're fucking hilarious, bro.

• 1:08:36Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, my gosh, I bet they are. Bunch of clowns.

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:08:39Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, where were we? Oh, yeah, uh, December twenty ten, Nathan, his brother and his brother's wife Elizabeth were all in jail and Nathan's brother and Elizabeth had kids.

• 1:08:52Speaker 02

  His son with Elizabeth is with his grandparents and then his other son with uh his other wife is with uh his birth mother. And my three kids with uh my baby mama.

• 1:09:05Speaker 02

  But when I got arrested, my kids were with my parents. When my, when my wife left me, she left me with no car, no nothing and three kids. Like she paints this whole story, she guys, everybody pictured this whole story that I'm the evil person. You abandoned me and the kids.

• 1:09:20Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Speaker 02

  Um, yeah, I, I, I feel like I abandoned them eventually anyways because I went to prison for so long. So I feel like I abandoned them too, though. And I did, you know, but at the time, uh, when you have no means of making money, I thought like when I, when I was, when I was seventeen, I got my first computer job working for Southwestern Bell. Uh, doing tech support for Pacific, Bell, Nevada Bell, Pacific and Southwestern Bell. I like, I used to work for Microsoft, bro. I used to work for Vario web hosting. I, I, I worked in network operations center like I could have had a, a, a good promising computer career.

• 1:09:53Speaker 02

  But I fucked it all up because of drugs. I was doing cocaine. I was doing cocaine, lines of cocaine when I worked for EarthLink in it. EarthLink? Yeah, I remember EarthLink dial up. Yeah, I was doing lines of cocaine on the desk with the trainer. With the trainer? Train from Seattle would come down, come get me. We'd go to Oak Cliff, give him some cocaine. He'd smoke cocaine on top of a weed and tobacco pipe. And I'd do lines of cocaine on the table. He'd be like, I'm gonna go get Michael. We're gonna go work on some training material.

• 1:10:21Speaker 02

  We do all this on the clock. Crazy motherfucker. Okay.

• 1:10:30Speaker 02

  I don't think. Hack EarthLink, bro. They tried to fuck us, bro. I was, I, I, I crashed their stock, bro. This is like.

• 1:10:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, I cracked their stock, bro. So like, it was EarthLink-MindSpring merger, right? Yeah. Scranton took over basically because they own eighty percent of EarthLink. That's way back when they had that short, short, a URL shortener called CJB.net. Remember CJB? No. It was a URL shortener, so I made eln sucks dot CJB.net. I worked in Network Operations Center, bro, so I had, I had access to the server room and everything, you know? And, uh, so I, I got into the company, the president of the company's emails and, uh, him and the vice president and people on the board and shit that were talking about how they fuck over their customers. How fucking, because their service was shit, bro. It was trash. And, uh,

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  it was just, uh, anyway, so I posted these documents, all these confidential information about how they got hacked one time and they didn't report it to nobody, but that back then you didn't have to. Uh, so I, I released all this. I put, put it on CJB.net website, this little HTML thing with some snippets from the, uh, emails and fucking, I started spamming fucking MSN and Yahoo Stock message boards. And their fucking stock went from like thirty-two dollars down to eighteen dollars. Damn. Because like, you, this, this company comes in here and they're now got all these cus, uh, got all these new employees and now they're trying to renege on what they said they were gonna do. You know what I'm saying? I'm always for the little man, you know what I'm saying? I always stand up for the little man. But I never went back. Yeah, I bet you didn't, yeah.

• 1:11:59Jack Rhysider?

  Man, we get off track fast in this one. Um, all right, yeah, still Nathan, his brother and Elizabeth are all in jail. Uh, Elizabeth pleads guilty and his brother pleads guilty. And the two boys actually said that they coerced Elizabeth into doing it. So this meant she got less time in jail and so she ended up serving two years in jail. His little brother got four years in prison. And the last one to face trial was Nathan.

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  I pled guilty. Spiritually, you gave me access to my frog and I went to prison.

• 1:12:29Jack Rhysider?

  He was sentenced to four years and three months in prison, three months more than his brother.

• 1:12:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, I ended up doing all of it. My brother ended up doing all of it too. And you know, I mean, I went to prison, bro. I lived like a rock star the whole time I was in prison. I stayed high on K2 and drinking moonshine.

• 1:12:44Jack Rhysider?

  The hell is K2? That's a vitamin.

• 1:12:46Speaker 02

  No, K2 is like synthetic marijuana.

• 1:12:48Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, my God, okay. So you do your four years, three months in prison, you get out and then you're a good boy after that. And you've reformed, you self rehabilitation in prison.

• 1:12:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, right.

• 1:13:01Speaker 02

  Got out, I got out of the halfway house. When I got out of the halfway house, I got seven violations the first week I was out for drugs. Um, driving while intoxicated, uh, getting caught in a stolen car, fucking, uh, but it wasn't stolen cars or rental. It just didn't get taken back the way it's supposed to. But being out of district, not reporting it to my probation officer. And she told me, Mr. Michael, do you want to go to jail? You want to go back to jail? Or do you want to go to, uh, then they put me on the code shit, the color code shit. And I had to go to intensive drug treatment program, go one-on-one counseling for six months straight.

• 1:13:34Jack Rhysider?

  Uh, now, I think a lot of people might have gotten out early because of good behavior. It's surprising to me to you who had to serve the entire sentence, there was no good behavior for you.

• 1:13:45Speaker 02

  I discharged my, my, my federal sentence and my state sentence. I stayed in medium close custody, I'm a knucklehead.

• 1:13:51Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:52Speaker 02

  I got, but I didn't, I didn't listen to the police in the world. Why am I going to go to prison and start listening to them?

• 1:13:57Jack Rhysider?

  To get out early and see your kids.

• 1:14:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I want thinking about that. Uh, the, the way they treat people in prison, bro, is inhumane. So why, if they treat me animal, why am I going to act like I am?

• 1:14:08Jack Rhysider?

  Okay.

• 1:14:10Speaker 02

  So they leave me in a cage 20, 23 hours a day and they let me out an hour a day. What am I going to do when I get out for that hour? It's just like locking a, a dog in a cage for 23 hours a day and letting him out.

• 1:14:19Jack Rhysider?

  All right, so you get out of prison and how does it go wrong after that?

• 1:14:26Speaker 02

  Well, I I I got a girl pregnant and uh I had like I I was at the hotel and I bro I I was sitting there one day. I was like, man, I had three different businesses in uh in three different rooms. I don't know what to do.

• 1:14:39Jack Rhysider?

  In one hotel?

• 1:14:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:14:42Jack Rhysider?

  Man, you how what's what's the secret to your riz? How are you attracting so many of these girls?

• 1:14:48Speaker 02

  It was crazy is bro like my brother always asked me the same thing. He's like, how do you get so much pussy? How do you so much? I don't know, bro. I don't go chasing pussy, bro. It's just like I I I always that's what I always tell people. I pose and get chose. I just chill and be still, bro. It comes to me. It's crazy.

• 1:15:03Jack Rhysider?

  Pose and get chose.

• 1:15:06Jack Rhysider?

  I'm gonna try that. I'll see if it works.

• 1:15:08Speaker 02

  I mean, it works. Like, uh, me and my girlfriend broke up four months ago and I've been she's been dragging me for four months. And uh I've I finally cut her completely off the about a week ago and uh I got two chicks already. Like uh forty five and I'm still upgrading.

• 1:15:27Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so you're in a hotel with three three different ladies in the hotel and you're looking at it like, man, how am I supposed to juggle this? Keep going.

• 1:15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's like, you know, and then uh the guy that was down here at the lake with us. Uh, he was originally involved in our fucking uh fed case, but he didn't tell. He was one of the ones that didn't tell. Stayed stiff. And uh starts fucking with him again. And then me and him are out in fucking Fort Worth. We're going to Chili's because they had them kiosks where you just swipe right at the fucking uh table.

• 1:15:58Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, so despite serving four years in prison, Nathan went right back to carding. Getting stolen credit cards, printing them on blank cards and using them to buy stuff in the stores himself. He was doing all his old tricks, wearing disguises and buying gift cards from Home Depot and Walmart. Oh, yeah, and using them to get free food at Chili's. Since the ordering system is right there at the table. Um, you could just keep trying different cards until you find one that actually works and pays for your food without the server getting suspicious, right? So he's riding in the car with this guy and they're on their way to get food at Chili's.

• 1:16:32Speaker 02

  Like, we're we're turning uh on to get onto the highway and he runs a red light with three cops parked at the red light right across the street. And the dude then dude ended up being a snitch, right? Uh, my brother's got a couple pending felonies uh because of him right now. And my brother kept fucking with the dude and I told my brother the whole time that he's snitching, snitching because everybody, everybody, you know, people talk.

• 1:16:52Jack Rhysider?

  You said he was a stiff guy, though, and he didn't, though.

• 1:16:54Speaker 02

  But he ended up, he's not stiff now.

• 1:16:56Jack Rhysider?

  Oh.

• 1:16:57Speaker 02

  Well, he was just, he was just in another state in like Virginia or somewhere and he was in there for like three felonies. Like Larson and a whole bunch of other shit. And he said they gave him time served in county for felonies. Where the fuck do they do that at?

• 1:17:09Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, yeah, county is not a felony place.

• 1:17:12Speaker 02

  You can't, you can't, you can't serve your time, you can't serve felony time in county.

• 1:17:16Jack Rhysider?

  No.

• 1:17:17Speaker 02

  I don't think anywhere. I mean, I studied.

• 1:17:19Jack Rhysider?

  I can imagine like maybe a few weeks before they transfer you to the right place, but not your whole duration.

• 1:17:24Speaker 02

  But you might get time credited towards your felony, but you're not gonna do your felony time there.

• 1:17:29Jack Rhysider?

  I agree with you.

• 1:17:31Speaker 02

  And then, then he went to Alabama and then he got back here.

• 1:17:35Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so was this guy high or stoned when he was driving around like that?

• 1:17:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, of course, I was, I was high on GHB and uh, I don't, he was high on fucking meth and GHB probably.

• 1:17:44Jack Rhysider?

  Alright, so you're leaving Chili's, you're speeding through uh.

• 1:17:47Speaker 02

  We're going to Chili's.

• 1:17:48Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, going to Chili's, going through red lights, right past cop cars, keep going.

• 1:17:52Speaker 02

  I was right, pulling right behind us, turn, the turn light's on, he pulls right over, doesn't even fucking drive five feet, he pulls, slams on the brake, pulls over.

• 1:18:02Speaker 02

  I, I, I got rid of all my cars, bro, the cops didn't kiss me with no card, they didn't kiss me with no plastic.

• 1:18:07Jack Rhysider?

  He threw about the window?

• 1:18:09Speaker 02

  Nah, I put him down the side, the side of the window, down into the door.

• 1:18:12Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, it's smart, yeah, right in the glass, okay.

• 1:18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. They didn't kiss me with no cards, they didn't kiss me with no gift cards.

• 1:18:21Speaker 02

  Every, everything, they caught them, they caught my co-defendants with everything. Uh, I got eight years, they got ten years deferred, uh, probation, probation's never been an option for me. They've never given me probation or offered me probation.

• 1:18:34Jack Rhysider?

  Wait, so when the car got pulled over, is that when you went to jail or you got off?

• 1:18:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, I went to jail that night.

• 1:18:39Jack Rhysider?

  Well, how, how, because you didn't have the cards, how'd they, how'd they know it was you?

• 1:18:43Speaker 02

  The cops got the receipts and they're, because they're, the car's packed full of shit.

• 1:18:47Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:18:50Speaker 02

  That was just where, the last place we went was Home Depot. And so we's got all this shit and they even opened up a box, a security camera box, we got the MSR in it and shit.

• 1:19:00Speaker 02

  And they just, they, they, they were in my name and they see what I was in federal prison for and they're like, what's the access to life fraud? So they always ask me every time I get pulled over.

• 1:19:09Jack Rhysider?

  Hmm.

• 1:19:09Speaker 02

  What's access to life fraud? You ever lose your credit card or you get stolen?

• 1:19:16Jack Rhysider?

  It's interesting how vivid Nathan's memories are in those moments right before being arrested. That must be like a flashbulb moment for a lot of people, you know? Like, you remember it so perfectly clear. It's almost like those are the last moments of freedom that his brain holds on to. Or maybe he replays those moments again and again in his head to try to think what he could have done differently. Anyway, the cops found swiping equipment in the car and quickly put the pieces together that he was still due in swiping. So they arrested him and took him to jail again. This time, he pled guilty and they sentenced him to eight years in prison.

• 1:19:57Jack Rhysider?

  And the main crime they were saying he did is that he swiped a stolen card at Home Depot and bought $2,200 worth of gift cards. Okay, so this is the second time you go into prison?

• 1:20:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:20:08Jack Rhysider?

  Eight years they put you in for, for $2,200? Like, that's a lot for just such a small amount.

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  I mean, but they know I was doing more than that, though.

• 1:20:19Jack Rhysider?

  So what they, I mean, what were they?

• 1:20:21Speaker 02

  There's not, like, Texas, Texas, I mean, you know how fucked up the legal system is. It's fucked up in every state, I'm sure.

• 1:20:28Jack Rhysider?

  It is, but what were they saying your charges were? I mean, it wasn't just the $2,200?

• 1:20:34Speaker 02

  For swiping for $2,200, uh, they charged me with engaging or criminal activity.

• 1:20:42Jack Rhysider?

  But...

• 1:20:42Speaker 02

  So it was your felony?

• 1:20:44Jack Rhysider?

  The first one was they were saying you did a million dollars in damage. What were they saying here?

• 1:20:49Speaker 02

  They didn't say nothing. They just said $2,200 worth of shit from fucking...

• 1:20:52Jack Rhysider?

  It's just so hard that there's eight years in prison for $2,200 stolen.

• 1:20:57Speaker 02

  Tell me about it. But it's because they didn't charge me. See, like, if I would've got caught in Dallas, bro, they would've charged me with credit card fraud and abuse. It would've been a state jail felony, maximum two years. But since I was out there and I got caught with two other people, they're doing this shit in Texas now, and they're charging people with basically conspiracy in the state. And it's crazy. At that time, it's not a dollar amount anymore. See, so like, it goes up and higher towards how much the dollar amount it is. But once you're charged, once you get the enhancement of engaging or criminal activity...

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  It's enhanced from a second degree felony to a first degree felony. And then therefore. Uh, well, nah.

• 1:21:36Jack Rhysider?

  Geez, man. Okay.

• 1:21:38Speaker 02

  They're trying, they're trying to give me fifteen, bro.

• 1:21:40Jack Rhysider?

  Fifteen.

• 1:21:41Speaker 02

  And my, my homeboy paid ten thousand dollars for a lawyer for me in the state. And, uh, they, they, uh, they came down to eight, so I took the eight.

• 1:21:50Jack Rhysider?

  And you went to prison for eight years?

• 1:21:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:21:55Jack Rhysider?

  And self-reformed while there and got out and you know, you're a good boy.

• 1:22:00Speaker 02

  Now I'm a good boy.

• 1:22:00Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, we made it.

• 1:22:05Jack Rhysider?

  Is it true? Are, are you doing good now?

• 1:22:07Speaker 02

  Everything I do now is ethical.

• 1:22:09Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, so that. That's.

• 1:22:13Speaker 02

  But, you know, it, it took all, all that and all the trauma that I went through and what happened to my kids while I was in prison and my dad died while I was in prison and everything for me to finally wake up.

• 1:22:21Jack Rhysider?

  What happens to your dad?

• 1:22:24Speaker 02

  My dad died while I was in prison, bro. It was horrible. Like two worst fears that something happened to my kids and I'm not being there when I, when I was in prison. And then something happened to one of my parents while I was in prison. Something happened to my kids while I was in prison and my dad died while I was in prison. My two worst fears came before I was in prison a second time.

• 1:22:41Jack Rhysider?

  Um, how did your dad die?

• 1:22:43Speaker 02

  Uh, he had a heart attack, I think. I mean, he was in the hospital and like his blood was septic and shit. Like he had a bad heart. Like he had, uh, uh, health conditions for like fifteen years. Pretty much his heart. He wouldn't quit eating salt, bro.

• 1:22:56Jack Rhysider?

  That's awful, man. I'm sorry you went through that.

• 1:22:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, that, that, that, uh, you know, he, uh, he always promised he'd be there and shit. At, at the end of the day, I took peace in it because I knew my dad loved me and I know he knows I loved him. So I, I found peace in it in that. But I never had to ask the questions that you always want to ask your dad when you get older, you know?

• 1:23:14Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

• 1:23:16Speaker 02

  They're asking you questions.

• 1:23:20Jack Rhysider?

  Okay, um.

• 1:23:23Jack Rhysider?

  God damn.

• 1:23:25Speaker 02

  It's crazy. And that that's just a snippet. That's just a that's just a one uh moment. That's just a blip on the radar. Well, I was mature at a lot of your older ages and women like I don't I don't think it finally clicked it for me until I was about thirty eight.

• 1:23:42Jack Rhysider?

  So. Did you uh serve all eight years?

• 1:23:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Jack Rhysider?

  So.

• 1:23:47Speaker 02

  And I went back for violation after that and they fucking held me for another fucking four months for cocksuckers.

• 1:23:53Jack Rhysider?

  For violation, yeah. Um so that's uh four years plus eight years. That's twelve twelve years.

• 1:23:59Speaker 02

  Like with the extra time that I had to do for the violation, all the extra days and shit is closer. I was pretty much about thirteen years.

• 1:24:05Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, thirteen years. And I was thinking you have three kids now and two of those were uh there for the first one and one was there for the second, right? So that's.

• 1:24:14Speaker 02

  Well, no, all three of them were there. My my my sixteen year old that's here with me today, she was there. She was like one year and two months when I got arrested and went to the feds.

• 1:24:23Jack Rhysider?

  For the first time.

• 1:24:23Speaker 02

  Missed her whole life. I missed her whole life.

• 1:24:25Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:24:27Speaker 02

  The the middle was three when I first got locked up and the oldest one was six when I first got locked up. My mom kids are three years apart.

• 1:24:33Jack Rhysider?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a huge gap to not see that. That must be really hard.

• 1:24:38Speaker 02

  That's the that's the hardest part right there. That's the hardest part. Cause you can't ever be back. And now they're grown and doing their own thing so you don't get the time that you want. You know what I mean?

• 1:24:50Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, they're on their own schedule now.

• 1:24:53Speaker 02

  Yeah. But uh, you know, I'm I'm I'm in their life and uh we have good uh relationships. Uh at least I do for I do. I have good relationships with the youngest and oldest for sure. The middle one, uh she still has a lot of resentment. She's uh. But she'll get there.

• 1:25:10Jack Rhysider?

  Okay.

• 1:25:11Speaker 02

  You know, their their mother painted a a bad picture of me. Uh she made me look like the monster and uh what it was, we were both young and stupid. At the end of the day, you know? And we both made bad decisions. Neither one of us were perfect. That's the reality of it. And uh but I take responsibility for all of it because I'm a man. You know what I mean?

• 1:25:29Jack Rhysider?

  Okay. Yeah, I mean, it it the the mom was part of that Walmart scam anyway, so I know that she's not the cleanest.

• 1:25:37Speaker 02

  On each other and all that shit, you know?

• 1:25:42Speaker 03

  What a crazy story.

• 1:25:45Speaker 02

  I know, man, like fucking, and you know, alls I wanna do now is like when we were kids, bro, growing up, we didn't have nobody to look up to.

• 1:25:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:25:52Speaker 02

  We didn't have hackers that fucking been doing this shit their whole lives to look up to. Cause it started with us.

• 1:25:58Speaker 03

  Are you telling me you're gonna be the, you wanna be someone that people look up to?

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  I wa- I wanna be the one that helps save the world and I wanna help kids. I wanna help children, bro. I wanna help.

• 1:26:08Speaker 03

  You?

• 1:26:09Speaker 02

  I'm gonna make the world a better place. I'm about, I'm coming out with first jailbreak for the fucking robots, bro. You better buy my shit.

• 1:26:16Speaker 02

  I'm gonna start preaching the jailbreak for robots right now.

• 1:26:22Speaker 03

  Okay, you're gonna save us from the robots?

• 1:26:25Speaker 02

  I mean, all right, who else is gonna save us from the digital world?

• 1:26:28Speaker 03

  That could be a fair redemption art.

• 1:26:30Speaker 02

  When the robots turn on us and the computers turn on us, who's gonna save us? It's not gonna be fucking Joe down the street that's working on your car. It's not gonna be you cooking McDonald's that's making your burger.

• 1:26:42Speaker 03

  It's gonna be you.

• 1:26:43Speaker 02

  It's gonna, well, not just me, it's gonna be all of us.

• 1:26:48Speaker 03

  Okay, I, I, I will buy your shit when it comes.

• 1:26:52Speaker 02

  Robots could just take over and just kill us all.

• 1:26:55Speaker 03

  No, no, you gotta save us now. I'm, I'm hoping you're gonna do it.

• 1:26:59Speaker 02

  According to AI, we have a fifty percent chance to survive AI. We have a fifty percent chance to survive robots.

• 1:27:05Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:27:07Speaker 03

  I think if you've survived all this, then you've got a fair chance of surviving the rest of whatever's coming. I don't know how you made it this far.

• 1:27:15Speaker 02

  I mean, cause I wake up every day with a smile on my face and no matter what happened before.

• 1:27:19Speaker 03

  How many times did you come close to dying in your life?

• 1:27:22Speaker 02

  I was in a coma when I first got out. I had overdosed and by the time I got to the hospital, I was, uh, breathing at thirty percent. Uh, so they put me in a induced coma. And when I tried waking up, I went crazy on them and tried fighting them all.

• 1:27:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:38Speaker 02

  I didn't, I couldn't feel my legs, so I sat up on my bed and told them to lie. And I thought I was having flashbacks to when I was in prison. I ripped my restraints off and everything. They, they had to have like eight people hold me down and hit me with like three, uh, uh, uh, things to put me to sleep. And then fucking they got off of me and they started tying me back up and I woke back up on their bitch ass.

• 1:27:55Speaker 03

  Jesus. Okay, so that was one time being close to death. Any other times?

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  Uh, when I was probably about fifteen, uh, huffing some, uh, uh, air. This is from, from, from, uh, you know, I had a little airsoft gun that I, I mean, uh, to, uh, paint model cars with.

• 1:28:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:11Speaker 02

  And I was up in the air and my dad woke me up and I was choking on my throw up. My bed was covered in throw up and I was laying on my back. I would have died if my dad didn't wake up and come get me.

• 1:28:20Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, see, this is what I mean. Like, you've survived all these things. Not only that, but all the shootings in your neighborhood and probably stabbing in prison.

• 1:28:29Speaker 02

  Missed out and stabbed. Prison was worse. Like, when we first got to Lebanon, there was fixing to be a riot between the Serangios and the Whites. And, uh, over a TV.

• 1:28:39Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:39Speaker 02

  And I mean, there's probably about, at least, we made probably about 200 shakes that night. Looks like vampire stakes, but knives.

• 1:28:47Jack Rhysider?

  Geez, and that's your arrival. And they're like, you gotta join a side. Come on, we're fixing for war. Jesus Christ.

• 1:28:56Speaker 02

  There you get pushed over. Like, it's just like in the world. You're in a shark full of tanks. You're gonna be a guppy or you're gonna become a shark.

• 1:29:02Jack Rhysider?

  Oh, man. Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying is if you've survived all that, then I think that you're good for the rest of your life. You've cashed in all your lucky chips.

• 1:29:11Speaker 02

  I've been in prison three years now, so my recidivism rate of going back to prison is pretty fucking low.

• 1:29:15Jack Rhysider?

  Yeah, yeah. And your survival rate is pretty high. You've gone through the worst things of your life and you're still doing good. I mean, you're still alive.

• 1:29:23Speaker 02

  I'm not doing good. I'm still struggling. You know what I'm saying? But I'm free. I got my freedom. I got my health. And, uh, I got the people that love me around me. You know what I'm saying? So that's my blip. That's my zen.

• 1:29:33Jack Rhysider?

  I say we leave it as that, walking off into the sunset with your loved ones near you.

• 1:29:41Speaker 02

  I was good talking to you.

• 1:29:43Jack Rhysider?

  All right, man. Thanks for sharing your story.

• 1:29:45Speaker 02

  You have a good one. Bye.

• 1:29:57Jack Rhysider?

  Thank you so much to Nathan Michael for sharing this story with us. What a wild life he's lived. And he's only 45 now, so he's got a great big life ahead of him. And I'm certain it'll be drama-free from here on out.

• 1:30:10Jack Rhysider?

  I've got your next favorite shirt all ready. It's at shop.darknetdiaries.com. Have you looked at the shirts there? If not, why not? I mean, I'm telling you right now, I made a special shirt just for you. And I want you to go there and see if you can find it. It will be the one that you absolutely love as soon as you see it. And this show is also brought to you by our premium supporters who donate each month to show their support for this show. Premium supporters get an ad-free version of the show, and they get 11 bonus episodes that they can listen to right now. If you think this show brings you value, please consider supporting it. Just go to plus.darknetdiaries.com. This show is made by me, Lil Byte, Jack Lee Cider.

• 1:30:55Jack Rhysider?

  Our editor is the keystroker, Tristan Ledger. Mixing done by Proximity Sound, and our theme music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Knock, knock. Who's there? Dish's. Dish's who? Dish's Darknet Diaries.