#433 - Charlie Kirk's Autopsy, Egyptian Planes & Erika Kirk's Darkest Secret | Baron Coleman

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Baron Coleman is a trial lawyer turned political media personality who has done over 175 videos investigating the Charlie Kirk assassination. He hosts the @realbaronpodcast . SPONSORS https://irestore.com/djp - Use code DJP for HUGE savings on iRestore. https://ethos.com/danny - Get up to $3 million in coverage in as little as 10 minutes. https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/DANNY - Use code DANNY and get $150 if you win your first $5 lineup! https://hims.com/danny - Get simple online access to personalized & affordable care for hair loss, ED, weight loss & more. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS @realbaronpodcast https://x.com/baroncoleman *NEW* DJP MERCH https://dannyjonespodcast.com Get paid to make clips from the show: https://discord.com/invite/dannyjones FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Erica Kirk's past doesn't add up 06:08 - Charlie Kirk's last text message 09:20 - How Google Trends predicted Charlie Kirk shooting 17:08 - Weird details about Thomas Crooks' shooting 21:38 - Most suspicious angle in Charlie Kirk case 24:24 - Why Tyler Robinson's parents would stay silent 30:15 - "Charlie Kirk was not shot with a gun" 36:34 - Joseph Scott Morgan's opinion on Charlie Kirk crime scene 43:37 - Mystery of Charlie Kirk's necklace 45:56 - Medical examiner's report on Charlie Kirk's neck 53:29 - TPUSA's response to Kirk's death 01:00:32 - The man who "discovered' Charlie Kirk 01:04:58 - Charlie Kirk's relationship with Israel 01:08:13 - The event that sealed Charlie Kirk's fate 01:11:11 - Tyler Robinson's confessions are nonsense 01:13:35 - The Egyptian plane in Utah 01:18:29 - HIV criminal defense cases 01:26:10 - HIV test kits are unreliable 01:31:31 - "Beyond a reasonable doubt" 01:33:48 - Lindsay Clancy seemed like a media operation 01:42:32 - We've been lied to about everything 01:47:38 - 1% chance we went to the moon 01:52:20 - Near 0% chance Tyler Robinson shot Kirk 01:56:45 - Charlie Kirk's bodyguard's suspicious signal 02:06:22 - The pastor back-stage with Charlie Kirk 02:14:24 - Making politics your identity 02:20:03 - Butler shooting changed Trump 02:28:21 - Hypernormalization & hyperspecialization 02:34:15 - The establishment is losing control 02:43:59 - Next steps in Charlie Kirk trial Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:28Danny Jones?

  Starting about a year ago, you've done over 150 to 200 videos.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  I think we did number 175 this week.

• 1:35Danny Jones?

  175. 175 streams on this Charlie Kirk case?

• 1:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, mostly. I cover some other stuff, but yeah, I mean, I would say 80% of it.

• 1:45Danny Jones?

  At what point during that whole thing did you start to realize that something just feels off?

• 1:51Speaker 03

  Pretty soon. Pretty soon. You know, it's... If you just look at it at the actual moment of impact, that wound doesn't look like a 30-at-six to me. And I think pretty much everybody universally agreed with that initially. Even the people who are now massive, massively in the camp that 100% they believe Tyler Robinson killed Charlie Kirk with a 30-at-six on the Losi Center roof. Very early on, most of the people thought, "I'm just not sure about that. That story doesn't seem right, or the 30-at-six doesn't seem right. Maybe he used a different round. Maybe it deflected off of body armor." People were really having trouble coming to terms with the fact that that wound could be created by a 30-at-six. And so I'd say pretty early on.

• 2:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I started to notice something was off. I didn't really... I didn't get skeptical of anything that was happening until that Erica Kirk video came out, which was not too long after it happened, I don't remember. And then shortly after that, I think not even 90 days after that, you know, when I saw her get up in front of those people, that audience, wearing that glittering pantsuit with the pyrotechnics and the sparklers and trying to tell everyone that JD Vance needs to be the next president, that's when all my red flags went off. And I was like, "Something is not right here."

• 3:05Speaker 03

  You know, I actually was pretty easy on her for a long time. So much so that I would have... I could do a whole montage of people in my audience writing chats in saying, "Dude, she's guilty. She did it." And I'm like, "I don't know, guys." And they're like, "She's acting too weird." And I'm thinking, "Well, I don't know how I would act. I've never lost a spouse. You know, I've got a wife and eight kids. I have no idea what I would be like if something happened." And, you know, I would say about that time, December, is when I started thinking, "Oh, man, this just doesn't seem right. Something's off here. I don't know what it is, and then maybe she's just a weirdo, but..."

• 3:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah, people are weirdos, and everyone, they say everyone grieves differently. But this is just a particular odd strain of grieving I've never seen before. I've never seen this strain of grievance in my life.

• 3:49Speaker 03

  I haven't either. I haven't either. It's not just the grieving. It's the attacks. It's the leaning into political positions Charlie was leaning away from. I mean, there's a long line of... And then you start looking into her past, and that's when things really start unravel for me with her. You start looking into her past and you listen to podcasts she'd done. And she was a nobody. I mean, nobody knew who she was.

• 4:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 4:13Speaker 03

  But when you start looking into the things she had said publicly, the things she had produced publicly, and you start comparing it to reality, it doesn't add up. And so you think, "Okay, well, maybe she's like a lot of people. She pads her resume, or she pulls back on things that she's not particularly proud of." Just own it. Just say, "Yeah, okay, I shaded the truth a little bit on that. I didn't want people to know I'd been in six pageants. I kind of thought two was enough. So I said, 'Two. It was a mistake. I'm sorry. I've grown a lot since then.'" But no, I mean, it's like attack, attack, attack, attack, attack.

• 4:42Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 4:42Speaker 03

  And that's not really something we see a lot in people. We don't see that attack mode in people who are truly just grieving and want to be left alone.

• 4:52Danny Jones?

  Right, right. It's like, it's okay to be less famous, you know? Right now is a good time for you to just take a beat, step away, take some time away, you know, come out during, you know, come out in 12 months and do some sort of little public talk or whatever. Like, you don't automatically need to become the CEO of the company, start running everything, doing all these crazy fantastical, you know, WrestleMania events and stuff like that. It just makes it, it makes it look more weird. And it makes it, like, from a PR perspective, it's just the worst thing you could do, in my opinion. And maybe they didn't think that through, but, I mean, yeah. And then the Candace thing, too. Like, a lot of people are calling her a nut, but, you know, if it wasn't for Candace, kind of like going full speed, full bore,

• 5:35Danny Jones?

  and covering this thing to, you know, the nth degree like she's been doing, I don't think that anyone would have followed suit. Like, I don't think that... I think it's possible if she never, like, did any of the things that she's doing, that it could have been like case closed. Like, it seems like a certain group of people want it to be case closed, the TPUSA people.

• 5:57Speaker 03

  Well, I agree. I think there are two things that could have made it case closed. One is, even if, you know, take Candace doing what she's doing now. Had Erica just gone away, had Erica just said, "Oh, my gosh, I'm in shock", you know, released a statement, maybe done one interview with somebody, but really taking the Jackie Kennedy approach and just saying, "I've got to raise my kids. You know, thankfully, my husband left me with a boatload of money. We'll never want for anything. You know, please respect our privacy." Had she done that, Candace would look completely unhinged. The investigation would have had no steam. Everything would have died immediately. Within two weeks, everybody would have moved on. It would have been, it would have been memory-holed, you know? So that would have ended it.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  The second thing that could have ended it was Candace not catching fire on the way she has. She has kind of spearheaded the decentralized investigation and in many ways kept it alive. And it's not through coordination. It's not anybody looks and says, "Oh, Candace Owens is talking about this. I should talk about this." It's just she's such a magnanimous figure. She's such a big media figure that when she's covering something, people are going to talk about it. And other people are going to be interested in it, and other people are going to look for different angles. And it sort of coalesces into a really big outfit, a really big investigation. Either one of those two things had been different, the Charlie Kirk story would have been a seven-to-10-day news cycle story, and it had gone away.

• 7:21Danny Jones?

  And there was something that just came out. I was actually watching on her channel this morning. This was from about 12 days ago. She was showing this text message that when Andrew Wilson debated her, he started off his whole debate, opening argument or whatever, talking about this text message that he had saying that Charlie Kirk was worried about the left trying to kill him. And he was texting like his head of security about that or whatever. And, but he never showed the text during the podcast because he said he wanted to do it on his own podcast. And then it finally just got released, from what I've heard, and she showed it. And she showed it right next to a clip of Erica Kirk saying on an interview that there was no text like that, that she had said, "No, this never happened. He never... I would have known that because I had his phone."

• 8:06Danny Jones?

  So like, she is pointing out so many holes in the story.

• 8:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. That text message, interesting. You just attributed it to the head of security. They never actually told us who got that text message from Charlie.

• 8:17Danny Jones?

  Who he was sending those to?

• 8:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:19Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 8:21Speaker 03

  TPUSA has not owned that text message, for one. They've never said, "Yes, that is legitimate."

• 8:26Danny Jones?

  Oh, Andrew Wilson just released it?

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Andrew Wilson released it. Everybody assumed it was legitimate. Andrew said he got it from TPUSA. Everybody just kind of accepted that. You know, my take on their PR, they have the worst PR in America. I've never seen as bad a PR in my life as TPUSA. But my take on that is, start releasing things through your own official channels. You know, start being radically transparent and stop attacking people. And see if this thing doesn't turn around for you. See if TPUSA doesn't start to mend fences with people who... Really, there are a lot of people who are sitting back who might otherwise support TPUSA, but the constant weirdness, they sit back and think, "No, I'm not going to support that." You know, this is not the organization Charlie built.

• 9:06Danny Jones?

  Right. So at what point did this whole investigation that you've been doing start taking off?

• 9:13Speaker 03

  I just did the one-year anniversary of the first episode I did on it. That was on September 14th.

• 9:19Danny Jones?

  Oh, no way.

• 9:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, so my first show was four days afterwards.

• 9:23Danny Jones?

  Literally two days ago to the year.

• 9:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:25Danny Jones?

  Yeah. A year and two days ago.

• 9:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 9:28Danny Jones?

  That's wild.

• 9:29Speaker 03

  So, yeah, and I had, for days leading up to that September 14th, between September, I guess, 11th and 14th, I had tried to get other podcasters to cover it. The Google Trends stuff that I'd, that kind of put the show on the map. I had sent it to Ian Carroll. I'd sent it to Candace Owens. I'd sent it to three or four other podcasters. And at first, I was like, "Why is nobody responding to this? This stuff's brilliant. Why would nobody get back to me?" But, you know, the reality is, now being on the receiving end of all those types of emails, I understand why. I mean, you can't possibly respond to everybody.

• 10:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 10:02Speaker 03

  And so I thought, "All right, well, I've got a small podcast." There were 45 people listening live at the time I did that podcast. I went back and pulled the stats. There were 45 max concurrent viewers on that show. I think 200 and something total views on that show in the first 48 hours. And that was four days afterwards. And so it's really been from the beginning that it's something's looked off in the entire thing.

• 10:29Danny Jones?

  And then how are you doing your investigative research on this?

• 10:33Speaker 03

  What do you mean?

• 10:33Danny Jones?

  What were you looking at? Like, what were you, were you talking to other people on the internet? Like, what kind of sources were you using to look into this stuff?

• 10:41Speaker 03

  I mean, the first six or eight episodes was mostly Google Trends analysis, just looking at the Google Trends tool.

• 10:48Danny Jones?

  And what made you want to do that?

• 10:50Speaker 03

  So I had worked on a team that did some consulting for a grocery chain about 15 years before, 15 years ago. And one of the tools we use, we use a lot of tools, one of the tools we use is Google Trends. And it could, it could kind of pick up the next big thing. You know, you could see what people were searching for before it was available on grocery store shelves. And, and it was a way to, to pick up on trends. It's a really powerful tool. Along the way, I'd kind of thought, you know, if this is picking up, because they're real searches, if this is picking up real searches on, you know, Nalgene water bottles, what else could it be picking up? And so I started looking, anytime there's a mass shooting, or anytime there was a school shooting, I would kind of search the guy's name. Was there anybody looking for this guy ahead of time?

• 11:35Danny Jones?

  Oh, boy.

• 11:36Speaker 03

  And more than half the time, maybe half the time, or a little more than half the time, you would notice weird blips on that name a day or two, sometimes a week before the event, in weird locations, like Washington DC. And you're like, why in Washington DC are they searching this shooter's name by his three full names, three days before the school shooting in Arizona, or Colorado, or Minnesota? And so I, in the back of my head, always kind of done this. And I was talking to somebody at work about it. And I was like, you know, I found this thing. It's really weird. And I kind of use it internally to, to clock which of these are real, and which of them may be, may be fake. So after the Charlie Kirk thing, the next day, he said, did you do that Google Trends thing on this, this shooter? And I was like, no. He's like, you should. I'm like, all right.

• 12:20Speaker 03

  So I kind of started running it. And I immediately saw so much weirdness. I thought, oh, my gosh, this is like, the biggest signal I'd ever gotten on any one of these shootings, ever. I mean, eight o'clock the night before, in Washington DC, people searching Thomas James Robinson, or Tyler James Robinson, excuse me.

• 12:39Danny Jones?

  The night?

• 12:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You should go back and watch some of those early shows. They are wild, the searches. And then-

• 12:46Danny Jones?

  And you're doing this all live?

• 12:47Speaker 03

  Uh, I was, I was prepping during the day, and then, and then doing a live show at night. Yeah.

• 12:53Danny Jones?

  Got it.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  But, and then I would, but I was, at the time, I was only doing a show a week. So I would prep all week, you know, when I had, I was still working full time. So I'd prep all week in between, you know, things at work, or at nights, evenings, weekends, whatever. And then I would do a Sunday night show on it. So the first one was pretty basic. It was just Tyler James Robinson, a few other names, really just looking in Utah, Washington DC, a few other places. And then part of the analysis is you have to rule out that this isn't a common name that's searched all over the place. So you look in New York, and Texas, and California, and is it showing up everywhere?

• 13:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 13:26Speaker 03

  Because if not, now you might have something. But man, the second or third show, I can't remember what it was, I started looking overseas, certain Middle Eastern countries. And I started seeing just every, every single name that I was plugging in was pinging over there. And they were all in a very tight window of June and July, right before the September event.

• 13:48Danny Jones?

  What names were you searching?

• 13:50Speaker 03

  Uh, the medical examiner, the chief of public safety, the judge, the surgeons, the defense attorneys, the roommate, I mean, everybody, everybody involved in it seemed to be popping up in this area. And that's when it took a really weird turn. Because I'd, I'd seen where Ian Carroll said, oh, that Israel must have done it, or other people were saying that. And so I thought, I wonder if they were searching. And when I started seeing the bing, bing, bing, I mean, just over and over and over. And the one that weirded me out the most, and I thought, all right, maybe I'll just give this whole thing up and stop.

• 14:21Danny Jones?

  So it'll show you exactly what country those searches are coming from?

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, you can't say for certain who is sitting at the computer terminal searching.

• 14:29Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 14:30Speaker 03

  You just know that there's somebody in this geographic boundary, that's, that an IP address originating in that boundary. So if I set my, my VPN to Qatar, it's going to come out as if I'm searching from over there. But most people don't do that. Like, if you're searching something, you just pick up your phone, punch it in and look, oh, okay, that's right. And, and what it made me wonder is, and, and what I kind of wondered during the school shooters and mass shooters, is there some group of people that are sitting behind waiting to see, you know, what, what, what is out there on this person? What are people going to see when this news breaks? What are they going to find? What do we need to get out ahead of? What do we need to maybe mop up a little bit?

• 15:08Danny Jones?

  You think they would do that more than 24 hours in advance?

• 15:11Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, but, you know, sometimes it's just a final, has he done anything this week, stupid? I don't know. But it, it, I'm telling you, it was wild series. And that kind of landed on a few people's radars, and, and the show sort of picked up from there.

• 15:26Danny Jones?

  That's fucking bananas, dude.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 15:28Danny Jones?

  And so what country specifically overseas?

• 15:31Speaker 03

  It was Israel.

• 15:32Danny Jones?

  It was all, was there any other countries?

• 15:33Speaker 03

  Uh, Egypt hit quite a bit. Yeah. And then in, in Europe, there would be occasional blips here and there, but nothing, nothing too remarkable.

• 15:44Danny Jones?

  That blows my mind. So if, if this was some crazy conspiracy conducted by like, a rogue military faction of some government, or some foreign country, or even our country, you would think that like, the CIA or the Mossad would, would have the wherewithal to foresee that people are going to search Google Trends for this and find out, or like, at least use a fucking VPN and make it point to like, Australia or something, or North Korea?

• 16:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think a lot of people didn't know the power of the tool, didn't know people used it, didn't know that searches were getting stored in this tool.

• 16:19Danny Jones?

  No one had publicly, I guess, there, there had been no one publicly online pointing out the, the connection between Google Trends searches and like, mass shootings, or like, things like this, right?

• 16:32Speaker 03

  No, that had never happened.

• 16:33Danny Jones?

  No one had ever made that connection?

• 16:34Speaker 03

  No, I've never seen anyone make that connection before this case. I, I had never even seen Google Trends covered in the news in any way. So I think most people either were totally unaware of the, of the tool itself, didn't understand how it worked, that there were actual real searches being populated in at random into these, into this tool, or just never considered that somebody would ever do it. Look at that tool. I mean, you know, if you, if you're planning, if you're going to dinner, you're not thinking, oh, is somebody one day going to look and see that I looked up, you know, you know, Bob's Seafood Shack down the road?

• 17:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 17:11Speaker 03

  You know, but it's in there.

• 17:12Danny Jones?

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• 17:57Danny Jones?

  at night before bed, to help speed up the recovery of the tendons. My wife steals it from me from time to time to use on her stomach, and she said she's noticing her skin is a lot smoother. So she's super happy with it. Don't add another appointment to your already busy schedule. iRestor is offering huge discounts on their new Sculpt LED belt. Bring body-focused light therapy into your routine, support a more sculpted look, and feel more confident in your skin, all from the comfort of your home. Just head to irestore.com and use the code DJP. That's DJP at irestore.com. And please support our show by telling them we sent you. And did, did you look up the Google Trends for, um, the Thomas Matthew Crooks guy?

• 18:36Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:37Danny Jones?

  What'd you find there?

• 18:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, he was searched in DC, I don't know, six months or so before. There, there's, I did a whole, I didn't do a show on that, but yeah, I did a whole thing on that.

• 18:46Danny Jones?

  That's another really fucking weird one.

• 18:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 18:50Danny Jones?

  That, that, that one's too weird. I, I always told my audience, after everything I looked at on that, I'm not, I'm not going to cover that one. People aren't covering it?

• 18:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm not either.

• 18:57Danny Jones?

  Why?

• 18:58Speaker 03

  I don't, you know.

• 18:59Danny Jones?

  Why don't you think people are covering it in general? It's very odd that Trump won't talk about it, you know? You'd imagine if that was, if it was what we saw, that he'd be posting about it every fucking day.

• 19:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, maybe he doesn't want to encourage others to do it. You know, that's the kind of innocent explanation. Maybe he doesn't want to, you know, tell people, hey, you know, you can take a crack at me anytime you want. My, my security's inept. But it's, it's also possible that you look into it, and you start to see patterns, and you, you know, you don't want to investigate it. You don't want to go down that road, you know?

• 19:35Danny Jones?

  What kind of patterns?

• 19:37Speaker 03

  I mean, if you're the President of the United States, and you think the government may have taken a crack at you, is that, is that something you want to draw attention to? I mean, your security detail is the government of the United States. Your military is the government of the United States. And if you're the head of the government of the United States, do you want to draw attention to the fact that they may have taken a pot shot at you? I don't know. It's, it's a, it's a weird position to be in.

• 20:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah, but why not cover, why cover Charlie Kirk and not that one?

• 20:05Speaker 03

  Who, me?

• 20:06Danny Jones?

  If you're any journalist.

• 20:11Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 20:12Danny Jones?

  It does seem like more people are dubious of talking about and going deep into that one.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, it does. It does. Now, the Charlie Kirk thing has what I think a sexier media angle in that he died.

• 20:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 20:26Speaker 03

  Um, you know, run with the blood. You know, that's, that's kind of the media's mantra. And, and so there's a sexier media angle to that than somebody's ear got, got hit. Now, there was somebody who died at the Butler event. I'm not making light of that, but it wasn't a, a national media figure.

• 20:43Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, there were so many things that were stranger with that. I just recently learned something new about it the other day was that, um, when Ken Silva was in here, he was explaining to me how, um, when you listen to all those shots go off, when Trump's up on the podium, you hear like, I think six, five or six shots go off. Then he like gets down, they jump on top of him. And then there's like six or seven seconds go by before the sniper takes out Crooks.

• 21:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:08Danny Jones?

  Because there was a guy on the ground, right in front of that building Crooks was on top of that shot like a handgun at him or something and apparently hit him or grazed him or took out his rifle. But that's what stopped him from firing. I had no idea until like last week.

• 21:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know that's been a, uh, that's been a real, um, point of contention, whether or not the local guy hit him. And I don't, and where did the Secret Service shot really come from?

• 21:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 21:32Speaker 03

  Um, there were some people early on saying it was from 400 something feet away. And then all of a sudden they tried to change it to 100 something feet. So there's, there's a lot of, there's a lot of, um, a lot of weirdness with even what happened. Then you have the Secret Service snipers on the barn. I don't know what it was behind him, some sort of sniper nest up there.

• 21:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  They have a deposition where they said they thought they were taking fire, that they thought they could hear the bullets whizzing by their head.

• 21:58Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 21:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. And they, they thought it might be suppressed fire coming at them.

• 22:03Danny Jones?

  What?

• 22:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. So there's a lot of weirdness to this story.

• 22:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah, man. And the sniper, apparently there's something weird with one of the snipers that came out. Trump always talks about him. I forget the guy's name. Ken Silva was telling us about that one sniper, but apparently he won't come out in public and say anything. People have accused him of weird things.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 22:19Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he's been very secretive. Very spooky. Yeah, that one's very spooky. Did you see Tucker Carlson's documentary on it?

• 22:24Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 22:25Danny Jones?

  It's pretty good. All the, all the Google, the Google Drive stuff that he had, the videos that he had on there and all the people he was talking to on YouTube comments and stuff like that. It's like, if you're the NSA, that's low hanging fruit.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:37Danny Jones?

  You know?

• 22:37Speaker 03

  Well, and, and this gets to the biggest issue. The government comes out and says something and you can't believe them because they come out and say, ah, no social media footprint. The guy wasn't really doing anything. You know, he came out of nowhere and you realize, no, he's online being radicalized. We can watch it in real time. If Tucker Carlson can find it, you guys know it. So why haven't you told us about it?

• 22:56Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 22:56Speaker 03

  And, and there's a lot in the Charlie Kirk case that way.

• 22:59Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  You know, there's a, there's a, there's an angle to this case that is so intriguing to me and I cannot wrap my head around it. It is this, this weirdness that everyone involved in this case seems to be somehow associated with, I don't know what words you use on your show, but transportation of minors. It is, it is unbelievable.

• 23:23Danny Jones?

  In the Charlie Kirk case?

• 23:24Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes. It is the judge. That's all he prosecuted. The, the cop that executed the first six, um, search warrants, including for Tyler's phone, his computers and all that. That's the type of crimes, um, that he investigated. I, I mean, you, and I don't want to start naming names, but I mean, you go down the list, it is pervasive in this case. Absolutely pervasive. So when you start to ask, where would a, you know, if Tyler was a patsy, where would he have come from? To me, there's your angle. He came from doing something online that he shouldn't have been doing, or somebody close to him did. And it would have made an obvious entree to patsydom.

• 24:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And then also the deposition of his furry boyfriend. Um, what's his name again? Twigs?

• 24:15Speaker 03

  Lance.

• 24:16Danny Jones?

  There's a video of him like doing a Skype call deposition and he looks like he detransitioned. Like he's talking like this.

• 24:22Speaker 03

  He looks manly are the most men I know.

• 24:24Danny Jones?

  He looks like a, you know, like a frat dude or something like that.

• 24:27Speaker 03

  And, and then there was a, uh, there was a media outfit out of Britain that, that got photos of him at a gas station or something, or maybe walking. I can't remember where he was. Uh, he's apparently he's living in Texas and, and

• 24:38Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Some outfit got pictures. I can't remember which one, Daily Mail or Telegraph, one of those British rags. And they got pictures of who supposedly is Lance Twigs. There's nothing feminine about him. Like he looks like a grown man.

• 24:51Danny Jones?

  It's wild. See if you find a photo, if I find like an updated photo of Lance Twigs, it's insane.

• 24:54Speaker 03

  If you can find the photos of him at the, I think it's at a gas station.

• 24:57Danny Jones?

  Gas station? Lance Twigs' gas station? Punch in on it.

• 24:59Speaker 03

  He looks like a normal.

• 25:01Danny Jones?

  It looks like a normal guy. He looks creepy though.

• 25:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, he does, doesn't he?

• 25:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he looks.

• 25:08Speaker 03

  I mean, to me.

• 25:08Danny Jones?

  He either looks like a serial killer or like, you know, the lead guitarist in a metal band.

• 25:14Speaker 03

  Or, or, you know, but why, why limit yourself to one category?

• 25:20Danny Jones?

  Oh, that's weird.

• 25:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, he's the most mysterious figure in the entire thing.

• 25:25Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 25:26Speaker 03

  Um, you know, I've heard different things from sources about the investigation into him, um, and things he was told by the FBI that he was and wasn't allowed to do. So it, it leads me to believe there's some Lance Twigs, Lance Twigs angle to this story that we're not being told.

• 25:44Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Um, and another thing, we never really heard anything from Tyler Robinson's parents, right?

• 25:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:50Danny Jones?

  We got the story from, I don't remember where we got the story, but I remember hearing it early on that they turned him in.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  Hmm.

• 25:56Danny Jones?

  And they basically said, or they got like a friend of the family to talk to him and then he confessed to his parents. What, what, do we know anything more about that?

• 26:06Speaker 03

  No, because they haven't said anything else.

• 26:07Danny Jones?

  The parents haven't said anything?

• 26:08Speaker 03

  No, there was one search warrant that came out, I don't know, in the last few months. Uh, you know, they, they, they do these search warrants and they seal them for six or nine months. And, and this one finally got unsealed and released. And the family friend, I think the guy's name's, last name's Mitchell. He's a former law enforcement officer. I think he lived in the area, somehow knew the family. And they talk about him coming over there and he says that Tyler told X, Y, and Z to the parents. I don't know that the parents ever said to the law enforcement that Tyler told him anything.

• 26:40Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 26:41Speaker 03

  There's all this attribution to the parents in the different search warrants and the probable cause statement and the probable cause affidavit. But there's no, um, there's no quote from them. And there's no, our, the parents told us this.

• 26:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Wouldn't they use that in court?

• 26:57Speaker 03

  Uh, slam dunk. Slam dunk. You don't need text messages. You don't need a gun. If

• 27:00Danny Jones?

  There's no trial if you have that, right?

• 27:02Speaker 03

  Well, you might have a trial, but in terms of the probable cause hearing, you didn't need five days. Just put mom up there.

• 27:07Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  And, and have mom say, yeah, he told me he did it. It's over. Now we're going to trial. This is like as reliable of an eyewitness as you can get.

• 27:14Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:14Speaker 03

  You know, no mom walks in here and voluntarily throws their son.

• 27:17Danny Jones?

  I wonder if anyone's talked to them.

• 27:19Speaker 03

  You mean investigatively?

• 27:21Danny Jones?

  The parents. No, I don't know. Like friends of anyone who came out and said anything. I just imagine that like, if I'm the, if that's my kid and this whole thing is happening, like everyone, you got a Candace doing this, they got people debating, it's getting tens of millions of views online. I, I gotta imagine it would be hard to stay silent unless I knew I had a gun to my head.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  Maybe. I, I, I hear that a lot. Uh, I don't, I don't agree with that. And here's why. Um, let's say Tyler was involved in this thing and, and, and his role is going to land him life in prison without parole anyway. He was the getaway driver. He supplied the gun, whatever it was. And the parents know this. Let's just assume they know this. And I'm not stating anything as fact. I'm not hinting at, at something they said.

• 28:10Danny Jones?

  Pure speculation.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  I'm just giving you a pretty believable scenario of why they would remain silent. If they're aware that he was involved in some capacity that could net him a life without sentence anyway, what advantage do you get coming out and saying he didn't do it? Because if you come out and say he didn't do it and they start investigating and they realize, oh, you're right. He didn't do it, but he did do this other thing. And this other thing is now what we're going to charge him. He's not charged with being an accessory. He's not charged with being a getaway driver. He's not charged with just supplying the gun. He's charged with disposing of evidence. That's not a life without parole. He's not charged with, um, you know, being aiding in some capacity. He's charged with doing it. And if you know he didn't do it, what a great opportunity to keep your mouth shut.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Let it go to trial, let jeopardy attach and then prove he didn't do it.

• 28:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 28:59Speaker 03

  And then, or, or let the prosecution fail to prove he did it.

• 29:02Danny Jones?

  That's a good point.

• 29:03Speaker 03

  And now he walks home. Whereas if you come out and you make a spectacle.

• 29:07Danny Jones?

  You're adding more charges to, to it, right? You're adding more potential charges.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. If you encourage them, hey, you should be looking at someone else. Well, that someone else may lead them back to a life without sentence for Tyler. Might as well just sit back and say, we know he didn't do it. So we trust the jury's not going to be able to figure out he did.

• 29:23Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 29:24Speaker 03

  Um, and that's, that's kind of my thinking.

• 29:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Is that he might've told them, hey, look, here's what I did. And they're like, all right, shut up. You know, you don't say a word. We don't say a word. Everybody shuts up.

• 29:36Danny Jones?

  Didn't he hire lawyers in like a, a different county or something?

• 29:39Speaker 03

  I think he tried to.

• 29:40Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  I don't know whether he ever got in touch with that person in the, um,

• 29:45Speaker 03

  I don't remember what filing it was. There was some filing that came out and he, he had told the local law enforcement that he intended to hire this lawyer back in his home county. But I don't know if he ever got in touch with that guy or not.

• 29:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I remember there was a big, big thing to, there was a big confusion over like the date or something that he went to go.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's still not settled.

• 30:05Danny Jones?

  Hire a lawyer.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's still not settled. And that, that seems to me to be something very easy to settle. Um, there are tapes of him turning himself in. What time was that? Just release a still that has the time in the window. Show us what time he turned himself in.

• 30:20Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  Um, you notice when they had the preliminary hearing, they did release a little clip, a five or six second clip of him in the Washington County Sheriff's Office, but it didn't have a timestamp on it.

• 30:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  So it doesn't go towards.

• 30:31Danny Jones?

  They like zoomed in past the timestamp or something?

• 30:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. Almost like you're, it looks to me, or I would say this, that's something you would do if you were trying to hide what time he turned himself in.

• 30:41Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  You know?

• 30:43Danny Jones?

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• 31:26Danny Jones?

  today with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free quote at ethos.com/danny. That's spelled E-T-H-O-S dot com slash Danny. Application times may vary and rates may vary. I don't want to like tell you to jump to conclusions, but like what is your, you've been putting a lot of different pieces together with this puzzle and trying to fill in the gaps the best you possibly can with your knowledge and your background and the legal system and all that. But um, like what is your

• 31:56Danny Jones?

  best guess as to what happened to Charlie that day?

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Well, I can, I can eliminate things that I think didn't happen.

• 32:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 32:05Speaker 03

  So I don't think he was shot with a gun from the Losi Center. Uh, if, if he was, he was not shot with a 30 out six. I, I think I can safely eliminate that.

• 32:12Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  Um, was he shot with a low powered round or a different type of round from another location? That's probably the next best option. Once you've eliminated 30 out six from the Losi Center roof.

• 32:23Danny Jones?

  So, so next best available thing is he was shot from a smaller weapon, a lower caliber bullet.

• 32:30Speaker 03

  But again, a lot of the things that rule out the 30 out six are ruled out, rule out all gunshots because it's the shirt. I mean, his, his necklace flies up into his neck, his microphone's pulled over, his body doesn't go backwards, it comes forward. I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot that when you look at that, it doesn't look like a gunshot. And I probably to my eternal harm to my soul, have watched a lot of people get shot as a result of this.

• 32:58Danny Jones?

  I was like doing research for it.

• 33:00Speaker 03

  Yes. I want to know what people look like when they get shot. None of them look like that. Nobody. You shoot somebody with a high powered round, they go backwards.

• 33:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  They don't go forwards.

• 33:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 33:09Speaker 03

  It, I mean, it only makes sense. Something arise with 3,000 pounds of pressure or 2,000 pounds of force. You're not going to lean into it. It's going to knock you backwards.

• 33:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 33:17Speaker 03

  Um, you go, you go.

• 33:18Danny Jones?

  And you usually see an explosion out the back.

• 33:20Speaker 03

  A lot of times there's an exit wound. Um, particularly if they get winged in some sort of soft tissue, like the soft muscle of the shoulder, the neck. There's usually some, or even like the, the belly. A lot of times there's an exit wound now.

• 33:31Danny Jones?

  Well, a great example of, a great comparison would be the, the Matthew Crooks guy.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:36Danny Jones?

  Right? Because he was shot with like a, uh, something wind mag or something?

• 33:38Speaker 03

  300 wind mag.

• 33:39Danny Jones?

  Which is very similar to a 30 out six?

• 33:41Speaker 03

  Uh, it's a little more powerful, but similar. It's a 308 round. So similar in diameter. Uh, flies maybe 10% faster. So, but very similar round.

• 33:50Danny Jones?

  And that thing went in and that had multiple entry and exit wounds with him?

• 33:54Speaker 03

  It came in, I don't know if it came in his nostril, it came in somewhere in his face, exited kind of the lower part of his head, came back in, I think his shoulder, and then went down into his torso. I mean, it, you know, 16, 18 inches of penetration.

• 34:07Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  And we're told Charlie got a couple inches of penetration, which is.

• 34:14Danny Jones?

  And didn't come out. And that was about the same distance?

• 34:17Speaker 03

  Uh, roughly.

• 34:17Danny Jones?

  Roughly the same distance?

• 34:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, within 20, 30% of the same distance. Yeah.

• 34:23Danny Jones?

  That's one of the weirdest things for sure. And I have seen some of those videos on YouTube of those guys like shooting things with 30 out sixes, like watermelons and, you know, other things.

• 34:31Speaker 03

  Or cast iron skillets. I mean, things way harder. I mean, you, you can, you can do this with your neck. It's soft.

• 34:36Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 34:37Speaker 03

  It's only, you know, three, four inches.

• 34:38Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 34:39Speaker 03

  It's not, it's not a cast iron, it's not six cast iron skillets.

• 34:44Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  You know? Um, and so I think that rules out some other gunshots as well. And then you get to, you know, some of the, I don't want to call them weird or, or more far out there, but people are stretching, trying to figure out what could possibly cause this. Uh, the exploding mic theory comes up a lot. Could he have, um, had something rigged? And I use that kind of broadly. Could there have been something on his body rigged?

• 35:07Danny Jones?

  Was he wearing a flak, like a vest, a bulletproof vest or a plate or something?

• 35:11Speaker 03

  I think the official story is no.

• 35:12Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  Um, whether that's true, I don't know, but I think the official story is no, he was not.

• 35:17Danny Jones?

  Okay. Cause it did look like something was weird with a shirt when he was sitting down. It looked like a, I don't know.

• 35:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 35:23Danny Jones?

  Cause I remember seeing a clip of him when he was throwing the hats. You could like see his torso through his shirt, like his belly and his chest.

• 35:29Speaker 03

  Oh yeah. You could see his belly when he, when his shirt lifted up. You could see his nipples through his shirt.

• 35:34Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 35:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 35:36Danny Jones?

  But, um, yeah. So like, how would he have a chance to put any kind of vest on before that?

• 35:41Speaker 03

  He wouldn't because he turned around and walked right into the tent.

• 35:44Danny Jones?

  And it was like 16 or 17 minutes from the time he arrived to the time he was shot?

• 35:48Speaker 03

  Roughly.

• 35:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 35:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, but a lot of people have gone to exploding mic, you know, was there something rigged under his shirt or on his body that, that caused the injury? Um, I think that's more believable than, than a 30 out six from the Losi Center. I don't know that I entirely believe that.

• 36:05Danny Jones?

  What was the drone?

• 36:06Speaker 03

  Ah, well, drone's a gunshot. You know, it, it's kind of ruled out for the same reason all the other gunshots are ruled out.

• 36:12Danny Jones?

  It reminded me of one of those things they kill cows with, you know, they shoot it in their neck or they shoot in their head.

• 36:17Speaker 03

  Oh, those titanium rods?

• 36:18Danny Jones?

  The titanium rods.

• 36:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:20Danny Jones?

  That's what it reminded me of.

• 36:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, maybe. Um, you know, there are a lot of people who.

• 36:27Danny Jones?

  Cause it just pours out. The blood just pours out.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. I'll be interesting. There's a couple of people that have not been mentioned at all in the investigation that I'm curious if they'll be contacted by the defense or, or testify at trial, um, as to the condition of the body. Obviously the medical examiner's office will have a representative there, probably the Guajardo, the guy who did the medical examination. I'm curious if the funeral home director will show up because, you know, they go back through the body and they prep the body and they, you know, get it all ready to go. You know, it'd be interesting to hear from him. Did you notice anything on the neck? Did, did it feel like he was missing C2 to C7? You know, I mean, he deals with dead bodies all day. Does it feel normal?

• 37:08Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  Uh, did it look normal? Um, you know, what was the nature of the wound? Did it look deep enough? Did it look, um, like a superficial cut? You know, what was that thing? And so I'd, I'd be interested to hear from that guy. Uh, I'd be interested to hear from other people in the hospital, not just the surgeon. I'm sure we're going to hear from Dr. Trotter, but what about the people standing around in that room with him? What did they see? What did they experience? So other people who had contact with the body, access to the body, who were not just the surgeon, not just the medical examiner. There's going to be a dozen or more people, um, that I think had access to the body. And if the question comes down to was he shot with a gunshot, I think other people would be able

• 37:51Speaker 03

  to weigh in on that. I don't think you have to just rely on the medical examiner's report.

• 37:55Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Um, what shocked you particularly? Was there, your, your podcast that you did with, um, Joseph Scott Morgan, uh, with Julian Dory was fantastic. Uh, it felt like you were kind of, it felt like you were in the courtroom kind of grilling him at one point, which was great. But, um, like, you know, with his background and, you know, being a forensic examiner and all that, what was your biggest takeaway from, from talking to him? Because you guys went really deep into like the injuries, the procedures on a crime scene when somebody's murdered. And, um, you guys covered it from A to Z, but like, was there anything that really stuck out to you?

• 38:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. Um, how much, how much the crime scene preservation should have, um, been paramount in the moment and wasn't? Um, you know, one of the things he kept coming back to, and I'm sure he kept getting annoyed by me asking, you know, did that fall below the standard?

• 38:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 38:55Speaker 03

  But what I wanted to do, I mean, I had an expert. I had a chance to, to basically depose an expert witness. And, you know, a fact witness is going to testify what they saw, heard, smelled, felt, you know, uh, you know, sensed. Uh, an expert witness is going to tell you more hypothetically, the way things could have been or should have been. And this is a guy who would absolutely be allowed to be an expert witness in any courtroom on a forensic examination. I mean, he teaches it. He's testified before. He, he is a professor in that, you know? He teaches the classes to police officers. He absolutely is qualified to do that. So I want, what I wanted to get out of the interview was each step of the way, what did they do? And what should have been done? You know, starting with Charlie is, is, goes down.

• 39:41Speaker 03

  In that first five seconds, what should they have done? You know, what, what should the security team have done under the table? What, okay, now they're carrying him off. Should they, should they have done that? What should they have done? But, but as soon as he's in the SUV and he's leaving, now we have a crime scene. Charlie's no longer there. The security team's no longer there. No longer are we worried about saving someone's life or tending to wounds. So at that point, what should happen? And it was really interesting how he would have approached it, or how he thinks the officers there should have approached it versus what happened. And how far below the standard that fell. I mean, you have people walking through the crime scene. They're moving chairs, they're moving tables, they're pulling stuff off the tent, they're, I mean, pouring water out.

• 40:23Danny Jones?

  Cameras down and pulled the SD cards out immediately.

• 40:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And then now you go to the hospital. So at the hospital, from a crime scene investigation perspective, what should have been done? What, what items on Charlie's body should have been preserved? Okay, well, and, and I thought his answer was great. Anything that was on his body when he got shot, or when he, when, and whatever happened to him. Okay, so the microphone he's holding, the microphone on his, on his shirt, his shirt, his underwear, his jeans, his socks, his shoes. Um, you know, anything, anything in his possession and his, you know, immediate domain around him should have been preserved. Now, we will find out how much of that was preserved.

• 41:02Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he said even the chair, right?

• 41:04Speaker 03

  Even the chair, uh, even the stand that the chair was on, uh, the table around the chair. All that should be in evidence somewhere. The tent, that should be in evidence somewhere. You know, and it'll be interesting to me as the investigation unfolds, as we get through trial, is that stuff available? And one of the things he said is you can't go back and recreate it because they've paved over it. They've changed the topography of the soil. It's no longer the same facility it was the second he was there. So even if you go back and you put the same tables, the same chair, the same stand, you're going to get a different angle. You're going to.

• 41:35Danny Jones?

  So this is a common thing that they do is, is try to recreate the crime scene?

• 41:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, and you can't.

• 41:40Danny Jones?

  And now it's impossible?

• 41:41Speaker 03

  It's impossible.

• 41:41Danny Jones?

  Why do they do that to the soil there?

• 41:43Speaker 03

  No, I don't know.

• 41:44Danny Jones?

  Where they, they put pavers on top?

• 41:45Speaker 03

  Yeah. They removed, I think, eight or 10 inches of soil, they said, and then put, I guess, one foot by one foot, concrete pavers.

• 41:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  Um, it looks like maybe 15 or 20 feet.

• 41:57Danny Jones?

  Did they give a reason for that? Do they, did they have to explain it?

• 42:00Speaker 03

  No.

• 42:01Danny Jones?

  No.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  No, I mean, they've not given a reason I've seen.

• 42:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 03

  Other than we're just changing the, we're changing it. And, and you can come up with reasons why they might've. Perhaps it's a biohazard. You've got a man's blood all over the place. You're going to have students walking around. Um, maybe, maybe they'd always wanted to change it, but never had it in the budget or never had a reason to do it. There was no impetus to change it. But it's an outdoor amphitheater. It makes more sense to me to have concrete down than have people walking around on, on grass if you're setting up some sort of an event. Um, there's any number of reasons they could have done it. But the reality is, once he was taken down in that facility, until the investigation is complete, and maybe the investigation was complete. And that's, that's, that's a possibility. Maybe the police had said, well, we've done everything we can do here.

• 42:46Speaker 03

  We, we brought in our tools, we measured everything, we've got all the pictures we need. Back over to you guys, do whatever you want. Um, but it, it, it seems weird. I mean, if, if, um, if you're looking for a conspiratorial angle, literally, literally covering up the crime scene is a massive conspiracy.

• 43:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  I mean, it's where we get the term cover up. It's a cover up. They covered up the crime scene.

• 43:07Danny Jones?

  Right. And what about all the other camera angles?

• 43:11Speaker 03

  What about?

• 43:11Danny Jones?

  Cause they, didn't they have a bunch of other camera angles that have never been released?

• 43:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 43:14Danny Jones?

  So did they give that to the, to the court? Or how, how does that work?

• 43:18Speaker 03

  Um, there was a bunch of footage given over to the prosecution or to the, to the government. Um, whether it was all of it, we don't know. One of the camera, I think they gave like 26 minutes from two or three cameras, and one of the cameras, they only gave 23 minutes. And I don't know if that's because that camera didn't start recording at the same time or, or what. But there was one of the, one of the three or four cameras, maybe five cameras they turned over. One of them seemed to be two or three minutes shorter, if I remember, but I don't know why.

• 43:44Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm. And, um, yeah, another thing that I was, was shocked about on that podcast that you did was how quick they got him from the hospital uh, on the airplane to where they ship him to Arizona or something like that, to, to have him put in the coffin and do all that for the funeral.

• 44:03Speaker 03

  Yeah. That was one of the things that initially really shocked me was how fast the autopsy was done. Um, and it, and I'm glad I had that conversation with Julian Scott Morgan, uh, or Joseph Scott Morgan on Julian Dory's show.

• 44:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 44:16Speaker 03

  Because he kind of went through step by step in almost excruciating detail on what should have been done to have a, a reasonably sufficient autopsy, and then kind of put a timestamp on each one. And his conclusion was, I think, three to four, maybe four and a half hours would have been sufficient. Um, and so, you know, it could have been done as early as, say, one or 1:30 in the morning. And then Charlie's transported back somewhere to, to be put in a suit, cleaned up, makeup, presentable, put in a coffin, and ready for the family to come in and visit. From there, he then went back to the airport and got on Air Force Two, and they flew him to, to Phoenix.

• 44:59Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's so strange. And, and Erica has the necklace now, which should be in evidence?

• 45:05Speaker 03

  I am 100% convinced that should be in evidence. I think it is disputable whether she's actually wearing that exact necklace.

• 45:13Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 45:14Speaker 03

  I think there's, I think there's some debate to be had there. There's, there's, I have a lot of interest in that necklace, based on pictures I've seen of her.

• 45:21Danny Jones?

  So you think it's possible they have the original one in evidence and she's wearing a copy of it?

• 45:25Speaker 03

  Or it's possible it's in a landfill somewhere, at the bottom of a lake.

• 45:28Danny Jones?

  Oh, my God.

• 45:29Speaker 03

  Um, it's, it.

• 45:31Danny Jones?

  What would the necklace tell us?

• 45:33Speaker 03

  Well, we don't know. I mean, we're still, I'm still trying to figure out how he died. And the necklace, pieces of the necklace were right around the wound.

• 45:42Danny Jones?

  That's true, yeah.

• 45:42Speaker 03

  Did they go in the wound? Did they cause the wound?

• 45:45Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right, right. Yeah, and you could have residue from like the, the, I don't know, gunpowder? I don't know what I'm talking about.

• 45:53Speaker 03

  It could be anything on that necklace. Um, but, you know, again, going back to Joseph Scott Morgan, an expert in forensics, it was on his body, it should be in evidence.

• 46:03Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  It should not be, and I think if, I think I'm telling this story correctly. I know he's sue happy, so I don't want to, I don't want to put words in his mouth that aren't true, but I think I'm telling this word, telling this correctly. Somebody refused a direct order, like, hey, we need the necklace. Oh, that's his necklace, we need it. And he said, no, I'm not giving it, the police officer. And the guy was like, no, I'm not giving it to you, I'm giving it to his wife.

• 46:26Danny Jones?

  No way.

• 46:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 46:27Danny Jones?

  Refused to give it to a police officer?

• 46:29Speaker 03

  That's my recollection, yeah.

• 46:32Danny Jones?

  And this is one of the people at the company, the TPUSA organization?

• 46:36Speaker 03

  Affiliated, yeah.

• 46:38Danny Jones?

  Jesus, dude.

• 46:39Speaker 03

  And so, you know, it, it raises the question of why? Why is the necklace of so much interest? Because supposedly she was calling, asking about the necklace, and then now she wants the necklace. Oh, yeah. Um, and, and Charlie was not known for the, and she kept holding the necklace out the window, you know? Charlie was not known for the necklace. I didn't even know he wore a necklace. And, you know, if, if you're looking for something emblematic of Charlie, maybe a microphone, maybe a Bible, I don't know, but a necklace? That nobody even saw because it was always under his shirt? And it, it doesn't make sense to me. There's something about that necklace that's, that's intriguing.

• 47:18Danny Jones?

  And as far as the medical exam goes, so they said they think the inside of his neck was completely obliterated. Like, all of the, all of the, um, vertebrae were like destroyed. And they found bullet, they, they claimed that they found bullet fragments in the neck, right?

• 47:36Speaker 03

  So to back up, the neck completely obliterated, it's, it's a, that's a big claim.

• 47:41Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 47:41Speaker 03

  Uh, the left side from C2 to C7, they said, was completely obliterated, the vertebrae. They said the spinal cord from that same region was traumatically absent. Um, they said the strap muscles, the jugular, the, um, whatever the artery is that goes up, the carotid artery, that those were damaged. Um, and, and maybe some of the, the hard or soft tissue in the middle of the neck as well. So it's, you know, that's a lot of injury, but if even a gunshot to the neck would cause a lot of injury? Would it cause those precise injuries? I think experts are going to have to weigh in on that. I don't think armchair medical examiners can, can figure that out.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  But, um, it, it, it seems like a tremendous amount of damage. That's why I'm curious about other people who saw the body. It, are those injuries consistent with what you guys saw? Uh, as for the fragments, I think they said they pulled seven fragments from his body. I think only four made it to be forensically examined by the feds. I don't know where the other three went. Um, the lady testified that she got an envelope with four fragments in it. But the documents said there were seven pulled, so we don't know where the other three are. And, and.

• 48:57Danny Jones?

  But they are bullet fragments.

• 49:00Speaker 03

  I, I, I mean, I take it at face value that they are, but I haven't looked at them.

• 49:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 49:05Speaker 03

  I don't, I don't know what they are.

• 49:07Danny Jones?

  It is so weird how it, it's, how would you get so many people to be able to comply with such a big lie?

• 49:15Speaker 03

  I don't know that you would need that many people.

• 49:18Danny Jones?

  You need the people in the medical examiner's office.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  You would definitely need a medical examiner on board. Um, you would definitely need the person in Tempanogas Hospital who received him on board. I don't think you could pull off something without at least those two.

• 49:34Danny Jones?

  And which one of those people was on Google Trends for searched, being searched?

• 49:38Speaker 03

  Um, both.

• 49:39Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 49:40Speaker 03

  Both. Now, the medical examiner, Deidre Amaro was, she's the chief, she was the chief medical examiner for Utah.

• 49:46Danny Jones?

  Cause that's definitely one of the top people you'd want to have, like, in the know.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:50Danny Jones?

  If you're going to do this.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  But she's not the one who conducted the, um, the medical examination. It was a guy named, uh, Guajardo, who no longer works in Utah either. I think both of them are now gone. He is in New York somewhere. And what's interesting about him is his wife is into the furry scene. Yeah, so it's, there's so much sexual perversion that surrounds this case. It's uncanny.

• 50:19Danny Jones?

  Yeah, if it was exactly what they told us, they couldn't have got more unlucky with all of the other details that people have noticed about this thing.

• 50:28Speaker 03

  That's correct.

• 50:28Danny Jones?

  You know?

• 50:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:30Danny Jones?

  But like, sometimes I wonder, on all of the events like this that have gone down, I don't know if there's any that have been so well documented.

• 50:42Speaker 03

  What do you mean by that?

• 50:43Danny Jones?

  Like, like how everyone's hyper analyzing.

• 50:46Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 50:46Danny Jones?

  Every single person's eye movement, what they do with their hands, where they're looking, what exactly what they did, like, I can't remember in my lifetime, an event that's, that's been so hyper analyzed the way this one has.

• 50:59Speaker 03

  I don't think there's ever been a case like this. I mean, it's a very high profile assassination. We don't get those very often, thankfully. That doesn't happen a lot. And it happened in broad daylight in front of a bunch of cameras and microphones. That doesn't happen a lot either.

• 51:18Speaker 03

  And it happened under fairly suspicious circumstances, meaning, as you said, you know, let's just take George Zinn, the guy, you know, 70 something year old man.

• 51:28Danny Jones?

  Oh, the guy that jumped up and started flailing?

• 51:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. And saying, I did it, I did it.

• 51:31Danny Jones?

  I forgot about him.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. What are the odds? You know, and then, and then he goes to the hospital and a police officer says, you know, by doing that, you might have caused precious resources to be devoted to you, letting the actual person get away. He said, I know, that was my plan.

• 51:47Danny Jones?

  He said that?

• 51:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 51:50Speaker 03

  Yes, that was my plan. Now, I look at that and say, plan? You came up, did you come up with this plan in two seconds? Cause it was about two or three seconds afterwards that you jumped up and started doing this. To me, plan means something you came in that day intending to do. You knew it was gonna happen. You knew you were gonna jump up and take credit. That's what plan sounds like to me. Plan doesn't sound like something you just come up with on the spot. You wouldn't say that was my plan. You'd say, yeah, that's what I was doing.

• 52:15Danny Jones?

  Where's that guy now?

• 52:16Speaker 03

  Jail. He had child, he had CSAM material on his phone.

• 52:22Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 52:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Again, another connection to the story.

• 52:26Danny Jones?

  God, dude.

• 52:27Speaker 03

  It seems like everyone connected to the story has something to do with young people.

• 52:34Danny Jones?

  This is fucking reeks. Have you talked to anybody at the TPUSA organization who's like, I would imagine there's people that are in there that are probably super frustrated and skeptical of the whole thing, but they, they don't wanna, they don't wanna speak out for fear of whatever, losing their job, or I can't imagine being sued or something.

• 52:54Speaker 03

  They fired a bunch of people trying to get rid of sources.

• 52:58Speaker 03

  And they've succeeded.

• 52:59Danny Jones?

  They fired people trying to get rid of sources?

• 53:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, people leaking stuff out of TPUSA.

• 53:03Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  I mean, they fired, I don't wanna put a number on it, but a lot of people since he died and have rehired a whole bunch of new people. They've not gotten rid of every source. But yeah, there are a lot of people in there who are skeptical, very skeptical.

• 53:19Danny Jones?

  Have any of them reached out to you?

• 53:20Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:22Danny Jones?

  What are they saying?

• 53:23Speaker 03

  They're skeptical.

• 53:24Danny Jones?

  Anything specific?

• 53:25Speaker 03

  I don't wanna go into that.

• 53:27Danny Jones?

  No juicy details?

• 53:28Speaker 03

  No, I mean, no, I, it just, people don't believe Tyler Robinson did it.

• 53:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 53:34Speaker 03

  And they don't believe that the people at TPUSA are acting right.

• 53:37Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:38Speaker 03

  That they're acting as if something is being covered up. Whether or not that's true, I don't know. I mean, I'm not saying that, but that's the suspicion from some of the people in there.

• 53:48Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 53:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 53:49Danny Jones?

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• 54:32Danny Jones?

  Download the app today and use the code DANNY, D A N N Y, to get $150 instantly in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup. Again, download the app and use code DANNY to get $150 in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup. PrizePix, run your game. Going back to that text message we were talking about earlier with the Candace Owens and Andrew Wilson debate, that was, is the, is the suspicion that that was changed to say, cause he said he was in fear of the left being killed by the left. But one of the things Candace was explaining was that the day, the same day, earlier in

• 55:16Danny Jones?

  that day, he was on a Zoom call with a bunch of people like Josh Hammer, and then two Israeli officials or something, like military people?

• 55:25Speaker 03

  Ah, well, we don't know military, they just say Israeli officials.

• 55:28Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right.

• 55:29Speaker 03

  So there's a lot of, there's a lot to unpack there. One is, is the text message real at all? TPUSA hasn't claimed it, so we don't know.

• 55:37Danny Jones?

  Right, that's true.

• 55:38Speaker 03

  Let's assume it's real, or let's assume it's based on reality.

• 55:42Danny Jones?

  Well.

• 55:43Speaker 03

  Has it been edited?

• 55:44Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 55:44Speaker 03

  You know, did they take some other word out and put the left in there? I don't know.

• 55:49Speaker 03

  If it is real and unedited, when was it sent? That's still unclear because you're looking at a screen cap, but it, but it also is on airplane mode. You can go in and change your system settings on your phone and you can, it'll go back and apply to all your apps. You know, does that, is that an accurate timeline? Is that an accurate time that it was sent? If it's an accurate time it was sent, what screen, what, what, what time zone was it captured in? Was it captured on Eastern time, Central time, Mountain time, Pacific time? What time of the year was it captured? Arizona doesn't change, but other, other states do.

• 56:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 56:26Speaker 03

  So there's a lot that we still don't know about it because TPUSA won't just come out and claim it. If they come out and claim it, they'd say, yes, it's real, here's what time it was sent, here's who it was sent to, but they won't do that, or for whatever reason, they haven't done that.

• 56:39Danny Jones?

  How else would Andrew Wilson get it?

• 56:41Speaker 03

  Oh, he said he got it from them.

• 56:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah, so it's.

• 56:44Speaker 03

  But I mean, I don't believe in much of what he says.

• 56:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah, but I mean, it's probably a safe bet that they coached him for that debate, right? Or they had a part in sort of, cause he went there to their headquarters and met with them, so I'm sure he had lots of communication with them, and I'm sure that they greenlit him to bring that up during the debate.

• 57:03Speaker 03

  It's, I, I think that's a safe assumption.

• 57:05Danny Jones?

  That's just a reasonable assumption.

• 57:06Speaker 03

  I think it's a reasonable assumption. I'm not ruling out that other organizations aren't helping him in his efforts to go after Candace and others.

• 57:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 57:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, Candace has a lot of enemies. And there are a lot of people who have attacked her over the years relentlessly.

• 57:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 57:22Speaker 03

  Any one of those groups could say, hey, let's exploit this, let's go get this guy, he's a bulldog, and send him after her. So I, I wouldn't limit it to just TPUSA. But I doubt he's just organically decided this is the fight he wants to fight. I think there's probably more to it.

• 57:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah, one of the things that you were saying, which I found very interesting, was that you were equating TPUSA with like, just any, one of these other big NGO think tanks that are out there doing these things.

• 57:52Speaker 03

  That's all they've become.

• 57:53Danny Jones?

  The biggest difference is you got like a YouTube, a YouTube celebrity leading the charge of it, right? So people think of Charlie Kirk.

• 58:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:01Danny Jones?

  And he's the face of it, but like, behind the scenes, you have this whole machine.

• 58:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's the case. That's absolutely the case. You're not gonna end up with $100 million of donations, or 80 million, or whatever he was getting his last couple of years. You're not gonna end up with that many, tens of millions of dollars of donations by accident. I mean, there's a plan in place, somebody's investing in you, they want, and when they invest in you, there's some narrative they're looking for. You need to carry that water, or the money's not gonna be there next time. And, you know, he's, he's hiring out an organization. I think they had seven or 800 employees at one point. That's, that's a lot of responsibility, and he's traveling to all these college campuses. When Charlie was alive, it was a college, the, the branding was, this is dedicated to the youth.

• 58:49Speaker 03

  This is a college oriented organization. We're going out trying to change the hearts and minds of college students. Since Charlie's passed, it seems like they've kinda gotten out of that business. They may play lip service to it by doing a few college events here and there, but they're doing very few. Now they're doing church events, now they're doing events for old people. I mean, you go to, you look at the pictures from most of their events, it looks like God's waiting room. I mean, it's just a bunch of senior citizens sitting around.

• 59:14Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:16Danny Jones?

  So, do you think when he first, like, when he first started? Well, first of all, what was your view of TPUSA and Charlie Kirk before all this happened?

• 59:24Speaker 03

  Uh, I was not the biggest fan of TPUSA at all, because I viewed them as just sort of a, I, I strongly disagreed with their stated foreign policy positions, relative to, to the Middle East in particular.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  Charlie, I viewed as an extension of that, that he was just, you know, there to promote a particular Middle Eastern country, and that, it just seemed like for years, that was the case.

• 59:53Danny Jones?

  Did you get the sense he was genuine?

• 59:55Speaker 03

  I did. I, I mean, I, I could take or leave him, I didn't want any harm to befall him, I didn't want anything bad to happen to him, but I was never a massive Charlie Kirk fan.

• 1:00:06Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:07Speaker 03

  But the last year or two, he had started to moderate on some of those positions. He'd sort of started coming around my way on some of those positions, and.

• 1:00:16Speaker 03

  You know, he hadn't, hadn't made the full public turn. It sounds like privately, he had kind of made the full turn, but

• 1:00:22Danny Jones?

  That PBD podcast moment was

• 1:00:24Speaker 03

  Was pretty stellar.

• 1:00:25Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:26Speaker 03

  I mean, it's pretty stellar. You know, I was, I'm right there with you, Charlie.

• 1:00:30Danny Jones?

  I remember Julian sent me that as soon as it came out. I was like, holy shit.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  It was shocking because it was him, you know, he, he had, he had been so pro-Israel for so long. And then all of a sudden, he's like, hey, wait a minute, maybe something they're doing is not right. Even just an admission that, hey, maybe something they're doing is not right. Oh, this is a new Charlie. But, but publicly, he still pretty much was carrying the water all the time. When he passed, it was so gruesome and I didn't think he was a bad person. And, you know, I'm a, I'm a father, I'm, I'm a husband. Nobody should be taken down like that. You know, I immediately felt an emotional connection I never thought I would feel with him. And I remember saying that on my, my first show I covered it. I said that exact thing that,

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  you know, I wasn't his biggest fan. I probably wouldn't have gone out of my way to meet him, but

• 1:01:24Speaker 03

  the reality is when he died, I got an emotional tug because nobody needs to go out like that. You don't get hunted down like a dog for speaking. You don't get hunted down like a dog for your political positions. We shouldn't be that kind of place. And,

• 1:01:40Speaker 03

  you know, but prior to that, I, I was not, I was not with the, I mean, I, you know, that's not my brand of conservatism. What, what they promote.

• 1:01:51Danny Jones?

  Do you, do you think that, um, like, so when, when the whole thing started with him and TPUSA? Do you think that they just kind of like saw this rising talent and found an opportunity to recruit him to sort of like take on their cause? And, you know, carry water for whatever, you know, these billionaires that are behind the scene of TPUSA, like they obviously have these,

• 1:02:15Danny Jones?

  these issues that they really care about. And do you think it's possible that they just saw like an opportunity with him, like this, this guy has a chance to become a star or whatever you want to say. And we can put the money to behind him with the marketing and all that stuff to really make it happen. And just sort of like push him in this direction, but not like straight up say, hey, you need to carry these topics forward.

• 1:02:42Speaker 03

  No, I think if you go back to the founding of TPUSA, it was in 2012. It was on the heels of the Tea Party movement. Even Turning Point, TPUSA, sounds a lot like Tea Party.

• 1:02:55Speaker 03

  College students were the one demographic who hated the Tea Party. You know, middle aged, white people loved the Tea Party, huge proponents of the Tea Party. Large proportions of, of middle America were big, big in the Tea Party, but, but that economic libertarianism, small government movement never made its way down to college campuses. They, they were embarrassed by the Tea Party. It had single digit approval ratings on college campuses. And I do think there was a, a global, a sort of the,

• 1:03:28Speaker 03

  people realized where the Republican Party was going. More of a, an economic liberty type party. But you couldn't get there without the, the college students. And so I think there was somebody, I don't think it was organic. I don't think it was an accident. Charlie's giving a speech on a small college campus in Illinois. Some 72 year old man just happens to see him and think, oh, he's the future. I need to convince him not to go to college and drive around the country and rent hotel rooms with me. I mean, that's really creepy. I wouldn't let my 18 year old do that with a 72 year old man.

• 1:04:00Danny Jones?

  Wait, that happened?

• 1:04:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's the founding of TPUSA. That's how it started. A guy named Bill Montgomery.

• 1:04:06Speaker 03

  Supposedly discovered Charlie while giving a speech. Charlie was still in high school while giving a speech on a college campus. That's, and he, and he just was taken by Charlie. It was like an eight minute speech. And he was supposedly so taken by Charlie, he went to him and said, you can't go to college. You've got to go on the road with me. We're going to found an organization.

• 1:04:27Speaker 03

  That's the official story and I just don't buy that story. I don't, I don't believe that story. I think it's, it's, um, I think it's a fairy tale sold because people will buy it. I don't think that's at all what happened.

• 1:04:40Danny Jones?

  This is the guy?

• 1:04:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's Bill Montgomery. He's dead now.

• 1:04:46Danny Jones?

  Uh, American businessman and conservative political advocate in 2012 co-founded the conservative political organization Turning Point USA alongside Charlie Kirk. Montgomery became Kirk's mentor and worked behind the scenes during the organization's early formation and died due to complications of COVID-19. So what do you think really happened? How do you think it really started?

• 1:05:10Speaker 03

  I mean, if I had to guess, I don't know. If I had to guess, I would say Bill Montgomery was, was in some group that, was looking for a figurehead, a young person to go to college campuses. And they probably looked at several different characters, maybe approached half a dozen or more of them and Charlie, for whatever reason, agreed to do it. And

• 1:05:34Speaker 03

  you know, that's, that's the best I can tell. Or somebody identified Charlie and he was targeted. But it, it doesn't seem organic. That, that story does, I don't buy that story. I don't buy it at all.

• 1:05:44Danny Jones?

  I always, I always, I have to say, and this is, I think this is just me. And like, I think, cause I just probably grew up in a very unique environment in Florida. But like, whenever somebody is so young and so just like politically ambitious, I always get skeptical.

• 1:06:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:03Danny Jones?

  And again, that's just probably my bias on how I grew up, but like him, Nick Fuentes, there's other people like him that just are so sharp on this stuff. And it's just for me, I'm just like, what, how did you grow up? You know, how do you know all this shit?

• 1:06:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. I, I don't know. I mean,

• 1:06:20Speaker 03

  that for, for several years, that was what TPUSA was.

• 1:06:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:23Speaker 03

  For, from like maybe 2012 to 2018 or 19, that's what they did. They went around on college campuses and tried to convince kids that big government sucks, that economic libertarianism is a superior economic philosophy and it would lead to the, you know, the, the betterment of, of humanity. And then by 2018 or 2019, you know, their fundraising is kind of in a rut. They, they're making a little bit of money. They're not making a lot. Charlie's still living on his parents' couch, basically.

• 1:06:53Speaker 03

  And that's when the money starts rolling in, but the, the major transition was they decided to go into foreign policy. And they decided to sup, start supporting, uh, pro-Israeli causes. And all of a sudden the, the fundraising just hockey sticks and they just, they just shoot off and, and now he's the darling of, of, of everything. You know, and that's,

• 1:07:14Speaker 03

  you know, you look at it, you look at the timeline, you look at the 14 years he was there, 13 years he was there. That's, that's sort of it in a nutshell.

• 1:07:24Danny Jones?

  And when was that PBD thing? When, when did he, that was right after October 7th, when he said that on PBD's podcast that he thinks that they knew about it?

• 1:07:30Speaker 03

  A week or two later.

• 1:07:31Danny Jones?

  A week or two later.

• 1:07:32Speaker 03

  October of 23.

• 1:07:34Danny Jones?

  So that was in 2023, right after that happened. And it's, I've heard stories that he would like often went to the White House to tell Trump to urge him not to do the Iran stuff.

• 1:07:43Speaker 03

  That's the, yeah, that's, I think, pretty accepted by now that that

• 1:07:46Danny Jones?

  So he was very outspoken, like not, don't do the Iran war. Don't get involved in the Middle East anymore after 2023.

• 1:07:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:07:56Danny Jones?

  And then you had the thing that happened, the TPUSA thing in Tampa with Tucker and Dave Smith, where he destroyed that Josh Hammer guy in that so-called debate. And, um, you know, Dave Smith came out and said that his conversation with Charlie backstage was like, you know, have you read this book? Yeah. Have you read this book? Yeah. He's like, so you know what's going on, right? And then he said like Charlie just kind of like grinned and like laughed.

• 1:08:20Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:08:20Danny Jones?

  Which was very, you know,

• 1:08:22Speaker 03

  Well, he had, he had Megyn Kelly, who was not huge on, on the, the TPUSA foreign policy. He had Tucker Carlson, who wasn't, you know, who kind of opposed the TPUSA foreign policy. So he was bringing these people in. And then, you know, a day before he dies, he says, I'm bringing Candace Owens back.

• 1:08:40Danny Jones?

  And oh, he said that the day before.

• 1:08:42Speaker 03

  Yeah. And we know where she stands on that issue. So, you know, he had, he had begun behind the scenes turning on this issue. What I wonder is, had he just turned on it publicly, would he still be alive? Because if he'd have come out and said, hey, I am afraid these people are going to kill me. You know, remember Harrison Smith released that tweet in August?

• 1:09:02Danny Jones?

  Yeah. What was that tweet again?

• 1:09:04Speaker 03

  Eh, it said something like, uh, Charlie's of, you know, I heard from a source close to Charlie that he's afraid if he turns on Israel, they're going to kill him.

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  Had he said that publicly, I'm, you know, I'm turning, I'm, I'm having second thoughts. I'm afraid they're gonna kill me if I turn on them.

• 1:09:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Speaker 03

  Had he then come out publicly and said, I'm leaving the cause, I'm done. And then dies the next day?

• 1:09:24Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:09:25Speaker 03

  Who's everybody gonna think did it?

• 1:09:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:09:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:09:28Danny Jones?

  That's a good point.

• 1:09:29Speaker 03

  And so he might still be alive if he did just said it out loud. That's why I encourage people to hide in public. You know, you got an opinion, say it.

• 1:09:35Danny Jones?

  You were talking on one of your recent streams about something happened in July that you think kinda like sealed his fate.

• 1:09:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, the Student Action Summit.

• 1:09:44Danny Jones?

  What was that?

• 1:09:44Speaker 03

  The Student Action Summit.

• 1:09:45Danny Jones?

  What was that?

• 1:09:46Speaker 03

  Dave Smith, Megyn Kelly, Tucker Carlson.

• 1:09:48Danny Jones?

  Oh, that was the thing in Tampa?

• 1:09:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was the summer before he died, June, July, somewhere in there. It seems like that's when all the Google searches start ramping up, June and July. It seems like that's when a lot of behind the scenes weirdness and meetings are taking place. You start seeing planes going different places that they hadn't historically gone. It seems like that's when the decision was made. You know, we'll, we'll, we'll keep trying to get him over, but we're gonna have a backup plan in case he doesn't.

• 1:10:18Danny Jones?

  Do you think it's possible that they tried to take him out before this?

• 1:10:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:22Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:10:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Again, had they not succeeded that day, we wouldn't know.

• 1:10:26Danny Jones?

  Right, and that's the, that's like the other thing for me that's just hard to wrap my mind around is there's so many other ways to take out Charlie than this public spectacle.

• 1:10:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:37Danny Jones?

  You know, it seemed like, did they do that? It seems like if you wanted to do it, you wanted it to be that way.

• 1:10:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:43Danny Jones?

  Right, because if you were like an assassin, you usually wanna take people out like in private, so people can't see it, and you don't have the whole world picking apart everything that happened. Seems like that'd be a more, a better, more optimal way to conduct this.

• 1:10:56Speaker 03

  Well, like, I think Andrew Breitbart was probably murdered. I don't think he had a heart attack at 42, walking home from a bar. But that was private, that was behind the scenes. I think Seth Rich was probably murdered, you know, and a political hit. But that was private, that was behind the scenes. Why make the decision with Charlie Kirk to do it so publicly? Let's assume it was a conspiracy to, to, to take him out. It sends a message that the other types of killings didn't send, you know? Killing someone will silence them, sure. But, but if you wanna kick off a political revolution on the back of the killing, it, it needs to be emotional, it needs to be devastating, you know? Hey, Charlie Kirk died in his sleep is not very motivating. You know, you don't, you don't go, you know, passing laws and signing executive orders

• 1:11:41Speaker 03

  and rounding up leftist groups and, you know, rallying the base around a war in Iran if, if Charlie Kirk dies in his sleep or, or falls down the stairs while he's, you know, walking into his house. That, that doesn't really get it. Being shot in the neck in front of 3,000 people and a bunch of rolling cameras, that sends a message that wasn't sent with Seth, Seth Rich or Andrew Breitbart.

• 1:12:05Danny Jones?

  So, do you think they were banking on convincing people that the left was behind it?

• 1:12:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, the guy's asking a question about trans violence at the time a guy on the roof is firing around, and he lives with a trans guy? And we're just taking it face value that he was trans because, again, we see no evidence of it. We're just taking it at face value that this kid was trans? I don't know.

• 1:12:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:31Speaker 03

  Think about if Tyler had died, if Tyler had not turned himself in. If he'd been gunned down in a police shootout, or he had killed himself in the woods somewhere, or in the desert somewhere. I don't think you and I are sitting here talking about it over a year later. I don't think anybody's talking about it more than a few days afterwards. I think we all pretty much accept the story and move on. The fact that he turns, oh yeah, the fact that he turned himself in keeps the investigation going. Now the prosecution has to produce evidence. Now people have to account for their whereabouts. Where were you? You know, this opens up a whole investigation that would not have happened. I wonder, I've strongly considered, that Tyler Robinson was supposed to take the blame and not survive.

• 1:13:13Speaker 03

  And that he was supposed to be taken out in a hail of gunfire or by suicide before he turned himself in. And just tidy it up.

• 1:13:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:13:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, the, the inconsistencies around him are very perplexing.

• 1:13:33Speaker 03

  Well, at that point, you know.

• 1:13:35Danny Jones?

  Well, go ahead. I was gonna say, like, the biggest thing to me that I've heard is that, like, why would you go hire a lawyer to plead the fifth and simultaneously confess on a public Discord chat?

• 1:13:48Speaker 03

  The confessions are so bananas. You know, he says, I intended to take this to my grave. You're driving home, you're about to see this guy face to face, why are you leaving an electronic record of every aspect of this case? It was my granddad's gun, I'm not sure it had a serial number, actually it did, it won't come back to me. Uh, I left it here, I, I mean, every single thing that you would need to nail down in order to convince people he did it, he's supposedly confessing to on text. And then just to make sure nobody forgot, I'm gonna leave a handwritten note before I leave, pre-confessing to it, that's something I might not even end up doing, I'm still gonna pre-confess to it. And just in case both of those get lost, I'm gonna get on a public Discord chat or two.

• 1:14:28Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:14:29Speaker 03

  And confess to absolutely anybody with a URL link for all of eternity. I mean, it is, it is, that is one of the most nonsensical parts of this entire story. No one does that. No one does that. What political assassin has ever turned himself in? I don't think any of us.

• 1:14:49Speaker 03

  They have to go catch him.

• 1:14:50Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:51Speaker 03

  They'll just walk in and say, yeah, I guess I did it. You know?

• 1:14:57Danny Jones?

  What is the story with the Egyptian planes?

• 1:14:59Speaker 03

  I don't know, that's not a story.

• 1:15:00Danny Jones?

  Is that serious?

• 1:15:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know. It's not a story I followed closely, I covered it a couple of times. There was an Egyptian plane on the tarmac that day that seems to fly with Egyptian intelligence that a lot of people suspect might also carry intelligence services for other countries.

• 1:15:20Danny Jones?

  So, the tarmac where?

• 1:15:22Speaker 03

  Provo, Utah.

• 1:15:23Danny Jones?

  Right, so close.

• 1:15:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, close. I mean, it's the airport you would fly into to go to UVU. Or you could fly into Salt Lake, but Salt Lake's like 45 minutes or an hour away, Provo's 10 or 15 minutes away. And Provo can handle big jets, I mean, it's, it's a real airport. There was an Egyptian plane on the tarmac, and there was one that left earlier that morning. Did they have anything to do with it? I don't know. The weird thing about the Egyptian plane that was on the tarmac is it kept powering up at different times during the day. You could see its transponder come on at different times.

• 1:15:55Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:15:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:55Danny Jones?

  While it was sitting on the tarmac?

• 1:15:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, three or four different times. And there was actually some aerial photography that was being done that day, like some survey photography for roofing companies. And it flew over the airport. And you can see the, the stairs are down, you can see the plane is on.

• 1:16:13Danny Jones?

  How big of a plane are we talking?

• 1:16:15Speaker 03

  I think a Gulfstream 4.

• 1:16:16Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:16:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, so, a normal executive jet.

• 1:16:22Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:16:24Speaker 03

  But it, it powers up, it powers up when planes are landing in certain locations, it powers up when certain key things are happening during the day. Could be a coincidence. The whole Egyptian plane, oh, that's it, right there, B and D.

• 1:16:42Speaker 03

  You know, the, the claims that this Egyptian plane is following Erica around or following Charlie around, I've not investigated that. I don't know if there's any merit to that or not. I can only do two, as many things at a time. I mean, I get, I get hate mail from people who are like, I've sent you nine emails and you will not investigate my claim. And I'm like, I am one guy.

• 1:16:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:58Speaker 03

  You know, I have one research person that works with me, and I have my sister who runs merch and sort of does the business side. Like, I, I'm not a big operation.

• 1:17:08Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:17:08Speaker 03

  I cannot run down every lead, every name that's mentioned, I can't possibly do it.

• 1:17:13Danny Jones?

  Are you in Kentucky?

• 1:17:14Speaker 03

  Tennessee.

• 1:17:15Danny Jones?

  Tennessee, okay.

• 1:17:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, Tennessee, uh, just south of Nashville.

• 1:17:18Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:17:19Speaker 03

  That's like podcaster heaven, man.

• 1:17:21Danny Jones?

  Tennessee is?

• 1:17:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. There's so many podcasters there.

• 1:17:24Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:17:24Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:25Danny Jones?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:17:26Speaker 03

  Candace Owens there, Daily Wire moved their operation there.

• 1:17:29Danny Jones?

  Doesn't, uh, Theo Von live, have a spot there?

• 1:17:31Speaker 03

  Theo Von lives there.

• 1:17:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 1:17:33Speaker 03

  Jason Whitlock, a sports, uh, sports podcaster, he lives there.

• 1:17:38Speaker 03

  There's a bunch, man, there's, it's a lot of podcasters in that area. No income tax, easy airport to get in and out of.

• 1:17:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:45Speaker 03

  A decent nightlife if you're into that.

• 1:17:47Danny Jones?

  It's like Austin 2.0.

• 1:17:49Speaker 03

  Austin's Nashville 2.0.

• 1:17:51Danny Jones?

  Austin's Nashville 2.0, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:17:53Danny Jones?

  I'm not a huge fan of Austin.

• 1:17:55Speaker 03

  I'm not either, I'm not either.

• 1:17:59Speaker 03

  I don't know why people live there. And I'm not trying to alienate anyone in Austin listening, but I just don't understand the draw.

• 1:18:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:06Speaker 03

  Um, it's hot.

• 1:18:08Danny Jones?

  Very hot.

• 1:18:09Speaker 03

  It's a, it's a rabid, left-wing government, you know? And look what they did to Alex Jones. I mean, they tagged him for a billion dollars. You know, you're gonna get on airwaves in Austin and, and start spouting off?

• 1:18:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's crazy.

• 1:18:23Speaker 03

  I'll take my chances in middle Tennessee.

• 1:18:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:26Speaker 03

  We got a little more conservative jury pool.

• 1:18:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, Tennessee's the coolest place. Lots of cool history in Tennessee. All the music and stuff like that, Tennessee and Kentucky.

• 1:18:35Speaker 03

  I grew up there, uh, in middle Tennessee. It's a totally different place today. I mean, the whole Broadway scene didn't exist. It was like pawn shops and porn stars. I mean, it were porn shops. It was like, it was not bars and all that. There were a couple of bars downtown, but.

• 1:18:50Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:18:51Speaker 03

  Uh, Nashville was a small town thirty years ago.

• 1:18:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  It's grown up.

• 1:18:55Danny Jones?

  That's incredible. I haven't been there in years.

• 1:18:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember when the Titans came, I thought, why are the Titans coming to little bitty Nashville? So.

• 1:19:03Danny Jones?

  That's funny, man. Um, so, yeah, so the Egyptian planes thing, the, the weird thing about that is like, the planes were there and you also found the, the Google trend searches happening in, in, uh, Egypt.

• 1:19:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:17Danny Jones?

  Which is very odd.

• 1:19:18Speaker 03

  Well, these Egyptian planes tend to leave Egypt right before things happen in Israel. Like a few days, maybe a week before October seventh, they leave.

• 1:19:28Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:19:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, so there's, there's some working relationship that I suspect between the two countries. Um, and maybe, maybe they have a very close, you know, travel, a mutual, mutually agreed travel arrangement. I don't know. Um, but they, they do tend to leave at, at key times or just before key times.

• 1:19:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:19:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:51Danny Jones?

  So you're, you got into all this stuff from being like, you started out as a lawyer, right?

• 1:19:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:59Danny Jones?

  And you were doing, you were, you became like an expert, a legal expert in HIV?

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I've done a lot of stuff as a lawyer. Uh, I started out in civil trials, working for insurance companies on the defense side. So car wrecks, slip and fall, that kind of stuff, you know, small, smaller stuff. Um, although some of the car wrecks got pretty big. Uh, and then from there I went to work for a bank. From there I went to work for a medical malpractice defense firm. While I was at the medical malpractice defense firm, I sort of happened upon this HIV science. And I kept thinking, man, there's an application here in criminal defense. You know, there, there just is. Um, and while I was there, there was a woman charged in Florida with having sex with somebody while being HIV positive and failing to disclose it, which in Florida is a, a big felony.

• 1:20:47Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:20:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, um, she was facing thirty years in prison. And MSNBC was camped outside of her house. I think HBO, they had some news, news show at the time.

• 1:20:57Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 1:20:57Speaker 03

  Did a piece on it. Um, it got a lot of news coverage. I saw it in the newspaper and I just reached out to her lawyer and I was like, hey, I don't know if you're open to defenses, but I think I have one that's pretty creative that I'm, I know they're not gonna see coming. He was like, come meet me. Uh, I was living in Boca Raton at the time and I drove up to, to, uh, Florida or to Kissimmee where he was. And we sat down and chatted and he was like, I love it, let's do it. So we.

• 1:21:21Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:21:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, we rolled it out. It was wildly successful that day.

• 1:21:24Danny Jones?

  How many cases happen like that where somebody?

• 1:21:26Speaker 03

  A lot.

• 1:21:26Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:21:27Speaker 03

  It used to be a lot more. Um, a lot of states are getting away from charging it. I don't know if it's because of the work we did or not, but, um, there were a lot, man. I think at one point I had fifty or something, fifty or so active cases and I could not have been the other lawyer, only lawyer in the country that was do, doing this. Yeah, it was very heavily charged in the military. So I ended up with a lot of military cases. Um, where I'd come in as the civilian lawyer on a team of military lawyers. Um, but yeah.

• 1:21:53Danny Jones?

  Why in the military?

• 1:21:54Speaker 03

  Uh, because it was, it was an easy, um, not following orders charge, uh, and they were charging it as assault. Um, and so it was, it was under the UCMJ, they were two pretty quick, easy convictions to, to get a problem. I mean, if you're the military, you don't want an HIV person in service. You gotta pay for it.

• 1:22:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:13Speaker 03

  You know, so any excuse to move on, sever ties, you'll, you'll take it.

• 1:22:17Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:22:18Speaker 03

  Um, and so it's, it's, um, yeah, it became, it became the sole focus of my practice for, I'd say, four or five years. Um, deposed a lot of experts, went to trial with a lot of experts, learned a lot about it. Um, you know, had to, had to learn how to adjust as the, as, as the prosecutions started picking up on, on the defense and, and interest groups were coming in, training them up for how to defend case, or how to prosecute cases I was defending. It became much more of a chess match than, than chess playing checkers. It, it, you know, it was an interesting time in my life.

• 1:22:54Danny Jones?

  So what went down with that lady who was in Kissimmee?

• 1:22:57Speaker 03

  She got probation. Um, they were totally unprepared to try the case. Uh, and they offered us a deal where they would give her, I think, six months of probation. She was facing, again, thirty years in prison. They were going for the max and they gave her.

• 1:23:11Danny Jones?

  For just not saying anything to the guy?

• 1:23:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:14Danny Jones?

  Did the guy get AIDS?

• 1:23:15Speaker 03

  No, no. Uh, we called it zero conversion.

• 1:23:19Danny Jones?

  But he could still, she could, even though he didn't get it, she could still go to prison?

• 1:23:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, if I shoot at you and I don't kill you, I could still go to prison.

• 1:23:27Danny Jones?

  That's a good point.

• 1:23:28Speaker 03

  You know? Um, so I, I understand the, the, the generic basis of the charge, but the reality is, one of the things I learned in do, oh, so going back to her real quick. Let me finish that, put a tail on that. She ended up getting, I think, a six-month probation deal, but they kind of said, hey, look, as long as she'll take this HIV awareness class, we're gonna terminate her probation when she finishes it. That class is available Friday. And this was Monday. They're like, she'll basically serve five days of probation. You know, take the deal. Um, so she took the deal. We, we, we told her they were offering it and she was like, yes, yes, yes.

• 1:24:04Danny Jones?

  That's a damn good deal.

• 1:24:05Speaker 03

  And I have no idea where she is today. I'm not, I never looked her up again. I have no idea what became of her. Um, but yeah, no, it's, uh, so the, the idea behind it is, you know, if you have herpes or, you know, something that's pretty easy to catch and you, and you have sex with somebody and you don't tell them, then you're basically subjecting them to a pretty high likelihood they're gonna end up with it.

• 1:24:26Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:24:26Speaker 03

  Whereas what I learned with HIV is it's a very difficult disease to transmit sexually. Uh, in increasingly, it seems like every study finds it increasingly more difficult to transmit sexually.

• 1:24:40Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:24:41Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. I mean, I would, I don't wanna say impossible.

• 1:24:43Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:24:44Speaker 03

  But almost impossible, almost impossible. And, you know, and under those circumstances, does this law make sense? Should it be considered like shooting at someone? Or should it be considered like having herpes and having sex with someone? You know, if there's a four in ten chance that they get herpes, but a one in five thousand chance they get HIV, is that a sufficient comparison that we should be treating them the same?

• 1:25:08Danny Jones?

  Is the law applicable to other STDs as well?

• 1:25:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, most, most states, most states. Yeah. Um, it's, it's just never charged.

• 1:25:18Danny Jones?

  It's never charged?

• 1:25:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, the other, the other, I, I mean, sometimes they'll charge it, but rarely do they charge it on other diseases.

• 1:25:24Danny Jones?

  So if it is so rare to, if it's one in ten thousand, uh, to transmit HIV sexually, that why is that law still in effect?

• 1:25:34Speaker 03

  Um, just public perception is not caught up with the science. And so, I mean, are you gonna be the guy to sponsor the bill to repeal that? You know?

• 1:25:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:43Speaker 03

  If you follow politics at all, that's not gonna be a very popular position. We'd like to put more people at risk. The reality is though.

• 1:25:49Danny Jones?

  I mean, it's not as crazy as, uh, the FBI director coming out and saying bestiality is not. What was he saying? He's like, uh, bestial, if you commit bestiality, that means you're a victim.

• 1:26:00Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I saw that. I was like, is, is the, is the German shepherd the aggressor? What's going on here? Um, no, but I mean, a politician's just not gonna come out in all likelihood and sponsor the bill to repeal that law. And so the laws are gonna be on the books and it's gonna be up to prosecutors whether they, whether or not they wanna charge it. And some of them do, some of them don't. But, um, some states have gotten away from it. Um, I don't wanna name a state in particular. I got one in mind, but I don't know if it's the right one. And I don't wanna say the right state or the wrong state. Uh, but I know one state got away from it, took it off the books. Um, and, and their reasoning was, was a little different. Not that it was hard to catch, but who are we trying to protect? What values are we trying to promote? Are we trying to promote extramarital sex, you know, indiscriminate sex with anyone and everyone?

• 1:26:45Speaker 03

  If, if so, yeah, keep the law on the books. But if, if we're, you know, laws should be based in some sort of morality. And then the morality probably should be, you know, if you have sex and you don't know the person you're having sex with, buyer beware, you know?

• 1:26:59Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:26:59Speaker 03

  Um, so I know one state got away from it, but.

• 1:27:03Danny Jones?

  So do people like her typically get off like that?

• 1:27:08Speaker 03

  That's an unfortunate choice of words there.

• 1:27:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, no, it's usually a pretty slam dunk conviction. We gave some people headaches.

• 1:27:18Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:27:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, because what they do is they just walk in with a test and like, look, she's positive. And the jury goes, oh, she's positive. And they move on. Whereas we actually challenged the test.

• 1:27:29Danny Jones?

  So yeah, how did, walk me through how you did that?

• 1:27:31Speaker 03

  So one of the things we had to do was order every HIV test kit on the market so that we could get the test kit insert, the FDA approved test kit insert, and look at it and actually see what it said. And so I basically read them all, memorized huge chunks of these things. So no matter what test popped up in any given case, I knew what it was going to say, or I can at least really quickly refresh myself what it was going to say. They all basically, again, this has been 10 years or more, but they all basically said the same thing. A positive isn't really a positive, it is a presumptive positive. And that presumption needs to be correlated clinically by a physician. And so if a physician does not make a diagnosis, the test makes no claim. The test is just a presumption.

• 1:28:13Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:28:14Speaker 03

  Hey, doc, these antibodies are here, you should look and see if they look like-

• 1:28:18Danny Jones?

  Like a COVID test?

• 1:28:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, sort of operates the same way.

• 1:28:22Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:28:23Speaker 03

  It's looking for presence of antibodies that respond to certain proteins.

• 1:28:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, because it's just a very small proxy, like as far as like potential, like, yes, this is here, it's very likely, or it's within some percentage that you could have this.

• 1:28:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, and one of the things that every test said was, look at all the different things that could cause a false positive. And most of them had 60 to 85 different conditions. That if you suffer from one of these conditions, you might also test positive. And so an easy question for a treating physician or an expert weighing in on it, I would just go through all of them. What did you do to rule out this? Nothing. Okay, what did you do to rule out this? Nothing. What did you do to rule out this? Nothing. Do you know if he has this? No. You didn't rule that out? No. Okay, what did you do to rule out this? What does it mean to rule out? And really put on for the jury that they did nothing, they just looked at a piece of paper. I'm going to put somebody in prison for life based on what a piece of paper says when the paper itself doesn't make the claim that

• 1:29:19Speaker 03

  they're saying it does? And that's, that was the basis of the defense, that scientifically, it would almost be impossible to know, beyond a reasonable doubt, keep in mind, that's why it has criminal application, not civil application, beyond a reasonable doubt, can you say that person has HIV? Did you do the work?

• 1:29:36Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:38Speaker 03

  And, you know, inevitably, they didn't. So it was a pretty successful defense.

• 1:29:43Danny Jones?

  Wait, did she have, was her HIV corroborated by a physician?

• 1:29:47Speaker 03

  I don't remember in that case particularly. What happened in most of the cases was, the physician would point at the test, and the physician would say, you'd say, how did you diagnose this person? I gave him a test. Okay. And then what? Well, then I looked at the test. Okay, and what did the test tell you? Test told me she had HIV. So that's the only thing you used to diagnose her? Yes. That, okay. And then you put the test up, and the test says, don't use me, you have to use your own independent judgment to make this determination, don't just rely on me. And so the test is pointing at the physician to make the diagnosis, and the diagnosis is, and the physician is pointing back at the test to make the diagnosis, and no one has actually claimed to make a

• 1:30:31Speaker 03

  diagnosis. And so if the test is saying, I don't diagnose, and the physician's saying, I don't diagnose, then I look and say, how do you know this lady has HIV? No one's saying she has it.

• 1:30:40Danny Jones?

  I see what you're saying.

• 1:30:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. And again, you're just looking for doubt, any doubt at all. If any one of those people walk out of the room and go, I don't know, I mean, he made a good point about the, neither one of them took responsibility for it, not guilty. You know, but you have to count on people putting aside their biases, their preconceived notions, and just listening to the evidence, and that's hard.

• 1:30:58Danny Jones?

  How long did that take, that whole, that whole trial?

• 1:31:02Speaker 03

  I mean, I had different trials. Some of them were a couple of days, some of them were weeks. I think the longest one may have been three or four weeks of a trial, yeah. So, and we had different levels of success. We had some not guilty's, we had some guilty's, we had, some, some clients are just not very sympathetic. You know, they get up there and they don't look sympathetic, they don't walk sympathetically, they don't speak sympathetically from the jury, I mean, from the witness stand, they don't have a sympathetic history, the 15 other women that take the witness stand don't speak sympathetically of them.

• 1:31:38Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:31:38Speaker 03

  And so there's some cases that are just hard, your client is so unlikable that you understand why a jury would-

• 1:31:43Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:31:44Speaker 03

  Would do that, yeah.

• 1:31:45Danny Jones?

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• 1:32:27Danny Jones?

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• 1:32:56Speaker 03

  Nobody does.

• 1:32:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah, why is it like that? Like, what is that, what does that mean, beyond a reasonable doubt? That just means one of the jurors has to have a slight doubt about anything?

• 1:33:06Speaker 03

  Not, well, the Supreme Court has never quite defined it. They've left it up to the states to define it. Different states have tried to define it differently. There's a pattern jury instruction a lot of the states use. And it's, it's not absence of all doubt, it's absence of any reasonable doubt, meaning that a reasonable person, under the same or similar circumstances, could walk away also doubting it. You know, like, this is, this is something that makes me wonder whether it happened. You know, I might be, I might be really convinced it happened. And one of the things in closing I used to do is I would start it, no doubt, you know, we have no doubt.

• 1:33:44Danny Jones?

  No doubt.

• 1:33:45Speaker 03

  100% sure he did it.

• 1:33:46Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:33:47Speaker 03

  And then you kind of walk up and you say, okay, you're 10% sure, you know, you get away from percentages, but you use some, some phrase that's kind of, yeah, I mean, maybe there's a possibility he didn't do it, okay. Well, that's not guilty. I mean, you know, that, you have to be, you have to be pretty sure, you know, you can't say, well, maybe space aliens dropped out of the sky and killed him, and that's not, that's not reasonable doubt. But you get past any reasonable likelihood that something else may have happened.

• 1:34:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:34:17Speaker 03

  That leaves some lingering question in your mind, you've got, you by law are compelled to vote not guilty. And that's hard for people to accept, because we don't sit, you know, as, as observers, we don't sit and watch an entire trial. Even if you watch it on TV, you don't watch an entire trial. You'll hear people, I watched every second of the OJ Simpson trial. I know he did it. Yeah, but you weren't in the courtroom.

• 1:34:38Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:34:38Speaker 03

  You weren't looking at OJ's face the whole time. You weren't looking at the prosecution's face. You didn't see the knees of the witness bouncing up and down. You didn't see how nervous the witness looked during breaks and sidebars when the camera went over to, like, you, you're not seeing it all. You're seeing a portion of it, you're only seeing a piece of it. You know, you got to trust the province of the jury that they're going to get it right.

• 1:34:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah. I think we need more, we need to bring back trials like the Johnny Depp, Amber Heard trial. That was my favorite trial.

• 1:35:04Speaker 03

  More entertainment?

• 1:35:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's just so, so fun. You know, it's like uplifting, it's what this country needs. Less of this Lindsay Clancy bullshit.

• 1:35:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was a tough one, man. And I didn't watch any of it. That was a tough one, just watching it tear the country apart, though.

• 1:35:17Danny Jones?

  It's so, that's the thing that like, really bewilders me.

• 1:35:22Speaker 03

  It seemed like a media operation.

• 1:35:24Danny Jones?

  It did.

• 1:35:24Speaker 03

  It seemed like a test run, is what, is how I interpreted it.

• 1:35:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:28Speaker 03

  You know, can we, through social media, affect a jury? They saw the prosecution wasn't meeting their burden. There was, there was no real push to convict her until midway through the trial. And then all of the sudden, all these influencers come out like, she's 100% guilty, she's a monster, she killed her kids. This was-

• 1:35:46Danny Jones?

  There was no push to convict her in the beginning?

• 1:35:49Speaker 03

  Not, I mean, did you, do you recall a massive social media influencer push before the trial started to convict her?

• 1:35:54Danny Jones?

  I mean, I wasn't paying attention until there was a social media push, so.

• 1:35:58Speaker 03

  Right, because there wasn't one, because there wasn't one.

• 1:36:01Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:36:01Speaker 03

  You know, the, the absence of evidence in this case is evidence. There was no massive social media influencer push to demonize and convict this woman. People, I think, saw that the prosecution was failing to meet its burden, that the defense was doing a really good job. And so they thought, let's see if we can save this jury on social media. Let's do a test run.

• 1:36:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:23Speaker 03

  Not necessarily for the Tyler Robinson jury, you know, my bias kind of leads me to wonder if that was the genesis of it, because it seemed to be a lot of the same people. But I wondered, is this a push to figure out, can we take a social media influence campaign and save a prosecution? And they didn't. You know, the jury seemed largely immune from it.

• 1:36:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and the other weird thing is how after the thing, after the mistrial happened, all of the jurors are going on social media doing interviews.

• 1:36:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was a little weird.

• 1:36:55Danny Jones?

  I don't think I've ever seen that happen before.

• 1:36:57Speaker 03

  I mean, it happens, but I don't think it should. I wish jurors would do that.

• 1:37:02Danny Jones?

  Aren't they legally not allowed to like, look at any social media shit and like, pay attention to any, like, the public narrative?

• 1:37:07Speaker 03

  Not supposed to during the case.

• 1:37:08Danny Jones?

  Not supposed to during the case.

• 1:37:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, they ask every day, have you seen anything that that hampers your ability to be impartial? They all lie. I like to tell the story, we had a car wreck case, it was a small case. Pick a jury, at the end of the day, judge charges them and says, hey, look, don't look up anything in this case. And this case took place at this intersection in town, don't go by there. Everything you're gonna learn about that intersection is gonna come through this evidence in this courtroom, so just, it's gonna be a quick trial a day or two, just stay away, don't Google, don't... Okay, yes, Judge, we'll do exactly that. Well, one of the other lawyers and I decide, we need to go get better pictures just for our reference. So we immediately drive over the intersection, and who do we see? A bunch of jurors standing around.

• 1:37:50Danny Jones?

  No way.

• 1:37:51Speaker 03

  Yes. I mean, they just lie, they just lie. Of course, you bring them in and you, you know, and the judge is like, well, did you see anything there that would prevent you from being impartial? No, Judge, absolutely not.

• 1:38:01Danny Jones?

  Are you allowed to call them out? Like, isn't that...

• 1:38:03Speaker 03

  You can, yeah, I mean, you can.

• 1:38:05Danny Jones?

  But that just wastes time, because then you gotta find a new jury.

• 1:38:07Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, the judge isn't gonna strike them for that. You know, the judges, judges like to believe, the whole system rests on the idea that people can follow the judge's instruction. Like, when the judge says, you just heard somebody say something. If you caught it, disregard it, don't think about it. Well, I mean, the jury can't do that, that's not how humans work. We take all available information and we immediately began to synthesize it in our minds.

• 1:38:31Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:38:32Speaker 03

  They can't strike that from their mind.

• 1:38:34Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, and then the other thing about all those, all those women bringing their kids out there in front of the courthouse and...

• 1:38:40Speaker 03

  That was a little gross.

• 1:38:41Danny Jones?

  Protesting, like, that seemed a little psy-op-y to me.

• 1:38:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:38:45Danny Jones?

  That seemed a little, a little, you know, George Floyd, Black Lives Matter protest-y to me.

• 1:38:51Speaker 03

  I wondered to what extent the people, I, I, I believe much of what we see in the media is just a psy-op. I wondered to what extent the people trying to tear the country apart went and found those women.

• 1:39:03Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:39:03Speaker 03

  And told them, you should do this video. Or maybe convince five women to do the video, and then they make it go viral with their little bot farms or whatever.

• 1:39:11Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:39:12Speaker 03

  And that, they know the effect that'll have, oh, I can get attention if I say I'm gonna, you know, I, I think about harming my kid, oh, I'll, I'll make a video doing that, I'll get attention, I love attention. And the whole thing is just a giant psy-op that, that was not organic. Both sides are, you know, the social, the social media influencer campaign to, to convict was a psy-op. The whole, women are out there thinking about harming their children, that's a psy-op, and it's all meant to just tear us apart, it's all meant to keep us at each other's throats.

• 1:39:39Danny Jones?

  I hope it was a psy-op, because if it wasn't a psy-op, then that means our country is, is worse off than I thought originally.

• 1:39:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:39:48Danny Jones?

  It could be, because if it's a psy-op, it's just a lack of creativity on the side of the government or whoever the people are, George Soros's of the world, that do commit those sorts of things, you know, like, those people had to have been, like, who, what kind of person can, has the, the, the month, the extra time and money to be able to call off work, pull their kid out of school, and drive across state lines to go get in front of a camera in front of a courtroom to defend some woman who killed her kids? I can't imagine, no one I know.

• 1:40:15Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, I mean, it's, there's that expression, we deserve better psy-ops. I, I, I so align with that, man, I, I definitely think we deserve better psy-ops. They've gotten so lazy.

• 1:40:27Danny Jones?

  They really have, that's funny. And, yeah, it just does feel like that whole thing was, was forced, was shoved down our throats.

• 1:40:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:40:35Danny Jones?

  You know?

• 1:40:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, that, that's a case, frankly, that shouldn't have made the media. I didn't quite understand why it made the media.

• 1:40:42Danny Jones?

  And it was everywhere. It was, it was impossible to escape it.

• 1:40:45Speaker 03

  Right. I mean, it seems pretty open and shut. If you take a life, you're necessarily insane, right? I mean, there's, that's not a sane action.

• 1:40:55Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:40:56Speaker 03

  Either that, or you're like demon possessed, but in that case, you're also not insane, you're also insane. So there's, we, we agree that anyone who kills someone's insane.

• 1:41:02Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:41:03Speaker 03

  Are, are, are we gonna sit here and say what level of insanity becomes treatable? And what level, and a lower level of insanity, while still insane, they deserve prison, but if you're super insane, you can go get help at the hospital and one day be set free. The, the whole notion is, is really bizarre to me.

• 1:41:22Danny Jones?

  But either way, in this case, like, she was going to be locked up, right? It was just whether she was gonna be in an actual, like, high-security prison or medium-security prison versus like, a mental institution.

• 1:41:31Speaker 03

  I honestly, and let me plead Andrew, plead the Andrew Wilson here, I don't know the charges. I, I did not look at the case closely enough.

• 1:41:39Danny Jones?

  Let's look it up, let's see what the charges were.

• 1:41:40Speaker 03

  I, I don't know whether acquittal was an option, full acquittal was an option.

• 1:41:43Danny Jones?

  Right, yeah.

• 1:41:44Speaker 03

  I think it was, but I don't know, I don't know if that's what the jury was considering. Like, I, I'm, again, I'm one guy, I don't, I can't...

• 1:41:51Danny Jones?

  Let's ask our, our handy-dandy AI, what were the charges against Lindsay Clancy and was acquittal an option for her?

• 1:42:01Danny Jones?

  So you can find. Fun fact, I have a friend who's a, a local attorney, and he, he got his first public case around here when he was just starting his law career, he took a pro bono case for a guy who was convicted of smuggling like 100 tons of cocaine into Tampa. I'll finish that after we read this. Okay, Lindsay Clancy was charged with three counts of first-degree murder.

• 1:42:29Danny Jones?

  Okay, what does it say? So three counts of first-degree murder, would that, would acquittal be possible, in your view?

• 1:42:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think so.

• 1:42:35Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:42:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:36Danny Jones?

  Did you ask if acquittal?

• 1:42:37Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:42:38Danny Jones?

  Yes, an acquittal was absolutely an option for the jury, specifically, they had the option to find her not guilty by reason of insanity. So not guilty would be an acquittal?

• 1:42:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:42:48Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:42:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. Okay, so the available, straight, not guilty acquittal.

• 1:42:54Speaker 03

  It was a technical option, but not argued by the defense, so yeah, she could have been acquitted.

• 1:42:59Danny Jones?

  But from what I understand, is, is her lawyer and her, she, like, they, she admitted to committing the murder, but it was just the, the get out of jail free card was the clinical insanity?

• 1:43:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I, I heard that as well. I, like I said, I did not have the time to dig into it and figure it out.

• 1:43:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:20Speaker 03

  The, the fact that it was in our face, absolutely everywhere, it was such a gross case, too.

• 1:43:28Speaker 03

  You know, I mean, what a, what a vicious way to take a life.

• 1:43:31Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:43:32Speaker 03

  That's not a quick, quick death, I mean, that's a vicious, vicious way to kill someone. And the, the fact that, that that was constantly being discussed around dinner tables and on the evening news and in late-night comedy and on podcasts, it just...

• 1:43:45Danny Jones?

  Copycat killers? There's allegedly some woman who did the same thing, is inspired by Lindsay Clancy?

• 1:43:50Speaker 03

  Allegedly, yeah, so I mean, it's, it's, the whole thing's just, it's just gross, man, it just seems like a psy-op. I, I think almost nothing we see is real. I genuinely think we've basically been lied to about everything, we believe. Everything, I mean, everything that's been on the news in the last 35 years, I think, is a lie. Maybe, maybe longer than that, I was just not cognizant yet.

• 1:44:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, it does seem like we're living in some sort of like, under the guise of some multi-generational magic trick with, especially with all the things people pay a lot of attention to on social media. I feel like the things that get the most attention, that have sort of the most people rallying behind those things are the biggest distractions, you know? And, and there's lots of them, all over, all over the internet, and that's kind of like, if you are, if you're somebody who wants to keep secrets, that's a great tool for you to use, because you can just, you can just mix in, the truth can be mixed in with just a bunch of bullshit, and you can't pick the wheat from the chaff, you don't know what's real or what's fake.

• 1:44:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, so Nixon called that a limited hangout.

• 1:44:57Speaker 03

  And I think there's a lot of that.

• 1:44:58Danny Jones?

  Or flooding the zone.

• 1:44:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, flooding the zone, you give, you give so many different options, you can't possibly choose from the right one, or you flood the zone with so many different sources confirming one or two options. The false binary, I think, is, is something that, that happens a lot, like, you see it on 9/11, it was either the CIA or it was

• 1:45:16Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:45:17Speaker 03

  Saudi Arabian terrorist, JFK, it was either the CIA or it was...

• 1:45:22Danny Jones?

  Israel.

• 1:45:23Speaker 03

  No, no, with that, it's either the CIA or it was Lee Harvey Oswald.

• 1:45:26Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:26Speaker 03

  They, they leave out, to me, a lot of times, they leave out the one that might actually be responsible.

• 1:45:32Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:45:32Speaker 03

  And they give you other, which, which of these would you like to pick from?

• 1:45:36Danny Jones?

  Right, and there's so much nuance, especially the JFK one, where there's like, so many moving parts.

• 1:45:41Speaker 03

  That's kind of how I look at Tyler Robinson, like, to me, the binary is, it's either Tyler Robinson or it's everybody. Like, everybody, because you need the medical examiner, you need the sheriff, you need the prosecution, you need, I mean, you need everybody involved, you gotta have a security team involved. And, and that's what, honestly, for a lot of people, they get... They get stuck on that. Like how, like you said earlier, how could you have this many people involved? But you don't need every person in all of those institutions involved. You might need one or two people in each of those institutions. And then you kind of control everybody and keep everybody on the path. You have your minders that sort of keep everybody moving. And you go to North Korea, you're allowed to tour, but you're not allowed to tour. You can't just walk down the street and talk to people. You know,

• 1:46:24Speaker 03

  you're minded. You get somebody to tell you where to go and who to talk to.

• 1:46:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, man, it feels like, you know, back in the, in the 60s, in the days of like the Cold War and JFK and the moon landing and all that stuff. Like you think about it logically, and you would say, yeah, of course, it would be a lot easier for them to get away with shit, right? Because there's no internet, there's no social media, way easier to cover stuff up. But honestly, it's probably just as easy now with just the ubiquitous people that have microphones online talking about stuff, and how you can sort of push people to talk about things more than others. And like, it's just like the ultimate flooding the zone.

• 1:47:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, it makes it look organic. It makes it look like, well, this has to be the case.

• 1:47:07Danny Jones?

  And more confusing.

• 1:47:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And harder to swat down, because, you know, it used to just be Walter Cronkite. If you could just debunk Walter Cronkite, you could, you could open up your conspiracy theory, or your alternative explanation. Now you've got to debunk 400 different social media personalities, 50 podcasters, and the traditional media. And it just looks like a deluge of opposition.

• 1:47:29Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 1:47:30Speaker 03

  I feel like the moon landing is where the people pushing these narratives, controlling, lying about everything. I feel like that's where they were like, alright, guys, we went too far with this one. Like, you know, let's pull back. Because during the 70s, there were very few, very few of these sort of mind control operations. They, they, they saw how far, okay, we can kill the president, great. Can we convince them we landed on the moon? Oh, my gosh, we can do that. But then somebody's like, guys, you know, dial it back. Let's not, let's not go this far.

• 1:47:59Danny Jones?

  We pushed a little too far on that one. Alright, we gotta, we gotta chill.

• 1:48:01Speaker 03

  At some point, they're gonna go up there and realize we weren't there.

• 1:48:03Danny Jones?

  But that's, that's funny, though. That's the one thing that if you question that moon landing one, that's the one where you're automatically painted as a fool. If you question that one. All the other ones, that's free game. Kennedy, of course, you can question that. Like, most people would, if you polled America, I'd probably say it's probably 67% of people think that there was a conspiracy there. It wasn't Lee Harvey Oswald. Most people believe it's, it's Lee Harvey Oswald was not acting alone. But like, the moon landing one, that was radioactive.

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  I remember when I was a kid, I saw a poll, and I know it was 6% because unemployment was 6% at the time. And they were freaking out about, oh, super high unemployment. And someone's like, there are as many people unemployed as think we didn't land on the moon. You know, so it's not that many. How many times you run into somebody that thinks we didn't land on the moon? I bet now it's like 25 or 30% or higher think we didn't land on the moon. So it's picking up steam. But yeah, I mean, it's, it seems to be the, the safe thing to make fun of people.

• 1:48:56Danny Jones?

  Well, I mean, the government's just always been lying, you know, about things and covering stuff up.

• 1:49:00Speaker 03

  Do you think we went to the moon?

• 1:49:02Danny Jones?

  Um, if I had a gun to my head, I'd say no. If I had a gun to my head, I, I, would I, I usually hedge, and I say, I think it's possible they went, but I don't think the footage is, is that.

• 1:49:14Speaker 03

  That's a nice compromise position.

• 1:49:16Danny Jones?

  I think the footage was definitely shot. And I think it was like a failsafe, right? In case, in case they didn't make it. And, you know, there'll probably be issues of bringing the footage back, you know, through all that radiation, and probably be damaged the film reels and all that. And

• 1:49:30Speaker 03

  That makes sense.

• 1:49:31Danny Jones?

  It was a, it was a promo, you know? It was a promo for the US to be the best country on earth.

• 1:49:37Speaker 03

  I don't think there's a chance we went. And I think

• 1:49:40Danny Jones?

  You don't think there's any chance?

• 1:49:40Speaker 03

  No. And, and I, I mean, maybe 1%. But I think the reason that's so radioactive, and why people are treated as absolute loon bats if they think that, the consequences are so devastating. More devastating than admitting, hey, we shot the president, you know? I mean, the hundreds of billions of dollars that were invested in that program, decades of lying about it. How many people were involved? I mean, that is a real, you talk about losing faith in the government. I mean, you would cause a, an existential crisis, particularly for the older generations. If someone came out like, look, we faked the whole thing. We're sorry, we, we, it was the Cold War, times were different, but yeah, we faked it.

• 1:50:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:21Speaker 03

  I mean, it would, it would cause huge problems with, with the credibility of the government.

• 1:50:26Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a weird one, for sure. And when I talked about, when I talked to Charlie Duke, one of the last guys to walk on the moon in here, he didn't do, and he, he didn't do a good job convincing me that he went.

• 1:50:37Speaker 03

  What did he, what did he do wrong?

• 1:50:39Danny Jones?

  He just kept saying, he didn't, I don't know what he did wrong, but what he, the, what he was saying to me, when I was, like, I was pressing him, being like, just explain to me what, what it felt like when you first walked on the moon. At the age of, what did he say? He was 36 years old or something? Like, like, just walk me through the emotions. What did it feel like? What was going through your head? What, you know? And the only thing he could say was just, exciting. Just exciting. I was just excitement. It was just excitement, you know? I'm on the moon, it was exciting. That was it. I mean, I always say, like, if I was to walk on the moon, I would have more than one word to describe what it felt like.

• 1:51:15Speaker 03

  It's almost like they were given talking points, and they can't deviate from those talking points. You know, in the, in the very initial phases afterwards, they, you know, one guy said, I don't know, do you remember seeing any stars? I'm like, I think I would remember seeing stars, you know? So I think after that debacle, they came back and like, look, here's your talking points. You don't stray. If they're not on this sheet, you don't know. You don't use other adjectives, you don't use other adverbs. You only use the words on this sheet. And everybody was given a slightly different sheet, so it wouldn't sound like talking points.

• 1:51:48Danny Jones?

  Yes, 100%.

• 1:51:49Speaker 03

  I don't think they went.

• 1:51:50Danny Jones?

  And that, I mean, and the biggest red flag for me about all of it, that's kind of, it's impossible to deny, is that happened, you had MKUltra, you had the Gulf of Tonkin, the Vietnam War, Operation Northwoods, Watergate. And in the middle of all of this, the one thing that wasn't a lie was the most incredible feat of humankind.

• 1:52:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, and the fact that Kennedy says in 61, we're going to the moon. And eight years later, they're standing on the moon. They go, what, five or six times in the next few years? And then they, 50 years, they're like, yeah, there's really nothing up there. No reason to go back. And, okay, well, then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, maybe we should go back. And the, hey, we should go back. We're now two decades into, hey, we should go back. And they're not even close. You know? The best they can do is, is drink tomato soup as they allegedly are going around the moon.

• 1:52:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah, allegedly, they just went around.

• 1:52:50Speaker 03

  It would have been so easy to just put a GoPro in the window, let it roll the entire 48 hours they were gone. And no one would be able to dispute it. You would have just indisputable evidence of, here's the rocket going up, here's it circling the moon, you know?

• 1:53:04Danny Jones?

  You mean, the whole trip?

• 1:53:04Speaker 03

  Yes. Put it in the window with a capsule and just let it roll. Instead, we get these little clips and occasional photos. And most of the time, there's just them like, look, my pigtails are in the air. You know, I don't care about your pigtails. Like, show me the moon.

• 1:53:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah. 100%. It's definitely, it's definitely squirrely. Lots of goofy shit going on. Back to the, the Charlie Kirk stuff. I guess, like, high level, do you think that there's, or, let me put it this way. What do you think the probability of Tyler Robinson being the one who shot and killed Charlie? Like, what's the probability that that happened?

• 1:53:52Speaker 03

  I put it low. I mean, low, single digits. Maybe even as low as 1% or lower. I mean, I do leave open the outside possibility that it was him walking through campus, it was him on the roof, the gun, even though we can't see it, was somehow on the, on the roof. And he shot, he shot him, and hit him on the first shot, and the bullet, for whatever reason, had a very weird reaction in his body. I mean, a very low probability, but I do leave it open.

• 1:54:25Danny Jones?

  But 0% that it was a 30 out of 6?

• 1:54:28Speaker 03

  Uh, near zero.

• 1:54:29Danny Jones?

  Near zero, yeah.

• 1:54:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, just near zero, yeah. I've, I've, I've shot 30 out of 6s, I've seen things shot with 30 out of 6s. He just barely moves. It just doesn't look like it. I'm sorry, it just doesn't.

• 1:54:47Danny Jones?

  Did you say that it was possible that the microphone electrocuted him?

• 1:54:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think, and I'm, I'm kind of more convinced of that now. I haven't covered it much lately, but I'm kind of more convinced of something like that.

• 1:54:59Danny Jones?

  Because the, the argument there is, is if his vertebrae's got blown out, and the connection between his body and his brain was gone, how would he be able to, like, tense up and have muscle tension, right?

• 1:55:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, I was contacted by a neurosurgeon, and actually ended up talking to a professor about it as well. And they both kind of said the same thing. Look, man, all the science is that once that connection's severed, you have about a 10th, maybe a 10th and a half of a second before every muscle in your body goes flaccid. Like, you're not gonna sit there, tensed up, you're not gonna be sitting upright, you're gonna crumple into a puddle, wherever you are, in a, a smaller amount of time than the human brain will be able to process. No one would have recalled seeing Charlie do any of this, you know?

• 1:55:43Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:55:47Speaker 03

  And I just, I tend to believe the science on that. And so the question is, what causes his body to remain tense? And the absence of a connection from his brain to the rest of his body? Uh, cause if, what, what you're saying is, in the, in the medical examiner's report, they said from C2 to C7, the cervical spinal cord was dramatically absent.

• 1:56:06Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:56:07Speaker 03

  Or was missing.

• 1:56:10Speaker 03

  So no connection between the brain and the muscles. So how is he tensing his hands? How is he holding the microphone? How are his elbows flexed? How is his, how is his torso erect? If he's being jolted with electricity though, for a second, he might be able to hold that posture for a second, cause he's, he's gonna, he's gonna tense up.

• 1:56:31Speaker 03

  Is that what happened? I don't know, man. I, I really don't.

• 1:56:36Speaker 03

  I just know the more we learn about the case, the less likely it seems like he was shot in the neck.

• 1:56:40Danny Jones?

  The idea behind the electrocuted, that electrified microphone is that they would have had like multiple backup plans, like backup ways to make sure that he died. Case like they tried to kill him and it didn't kill him. That would have made the situation worse.

• 1:56:54Speaker 03

  Well, and, um, you know, I kinda think whatever happened under his shirt was supposed to simulate a gunshot. And it, it went out of control and hit him in the neck. You know, it's supposed to maybe simulate a gunshot to the chest. Because if you get shot with a 30 out of six to the chest, okay, maybe it doesn't escape. Maybe it doesn't go out the back. You know, probably would kill you pretty instantly.

• 1:57:16Speaker 03

  And, you know, you, you, you zap him with the electricity. You have whatever that is in his chest that's rigged to, to explode or to move or whatever it is. It makes its movement. Then you bring him down to the ground and you can either finish him off under the table, finish him off in the SUV. You can finish him off in the hospital, you know? Or maybe you're, you've rigged it up so that it does give him a heart attack or it does penetrate his chest. And, you know, but I, I think there's a, I, I will say this. I think there's a 100% chance Charlie was dying that day. Once they gave the go sign and it was clear it was about to go down, assuming there was some sort of conspiracy. I think at that point, there were multiple backups. He was not escaping alive. They were not gonna take a shot at him and miss.

• 1:58:02Speaker 03

  Like they did with Trump.

• 1:58:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:58:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:07Danny Jones?

  And what do you make of, who was the guy who walked up and like rubbed his arm before?

• 1:58:12Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. So there's a guy named Dan Flood.

• 1:58:14Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:58:14Speaker 03

  Dan Flood was Charlie's like right-hand security guy. If you watch any old videos of Charlie under tents, you almost inevitably see Dan Flood standing within an arms length or two of him. He's the, the main security guy. He's Charlie's guy. For some reason, it's very bizarre. He's not paying, you know, we have about 11 minutes of, of footage before Charlie dies.

• 1:58:37Speaker 03

  In those 11 minutes, for, for like nine of them, yeah, that's the right-hand movement there. For like nine of them, he's just kinda standing around. He's talking in his microphone. He's talking to different people on, under the tent. He's looking around. But man, in the last minute or so, he really keys in. He really gets serious. He stays positioned. He's does, and then right before it happens, he steps forward and takes his left hand and puts it on his right, uh, his right, uh, left hand, excuse me, and puts it on his right bicep. And within milliseconds of him doing that, you hear the loud bang and Charlie goes down.

• 1:59:13Speaker 03

  I just would like an explanation of what he was doing.

• 1:59:16Speaker 03

  Like if he's not involved, that's fine. It's the most unfortunate timing of all time to do that weird move.

• 1:59:20Danny Jones?

  Right. This guy in the right here, same guy?

• 1:59:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, same guy. If he wasn't involved, then it's possible. If he wasn't involved.

• 1:59:29Danny Jones?

  Gulf of America t-shirt, that's hilarious.

• 1:59:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, his t-shirts were always great. Always black until that day. I've never seen him in white except that day.

• 1:59:37Speaker 03

  Till the day he died.

• 1:59:39Danny Jones?

  He always wore black until the day he died?

• 1:59:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:43Danny Jones?

  That's weird.

• 1:59:44Speaker 03

  I mean, maybe it's weird. It's weird if you think there was a conspiracy to kill him.

• 1:59:50Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:51Danny Jones?

  So you think it's possible that this Dan, like, what, if you, has, has this, anyone talked to this Dan guy?

• 1:59:56Speaker 03

  I don't think so.

• 1:59:57Danny Jones?

  Has he said anything publicly?

• 1:59:58Speaker 03

  Not that I've heard.

• 2:00:00Danny Jones?

  No?

• 2:00:00Speaker 03

  No. I don't know if anyone's talked to him behind the scenes, like secretly, but,

• 2:00:07Speaker 03

  I've, I've not heard anybody talk to him.

• 2:00:10Danny Jones?

  And there was a bunch of other, you know, I know Candace points out a bunch of other weird things that were happening under the tent.

• 2:00:15Speaker 03

  Well, there were, you know, there were other people do, like the guy who mic'd him? The guy who put the, the Roadgo wireless microphone on his lapel? You know, he's fiddling with the sound the whole time. As if they didn't sound check, as if they didn't have it ready to go when Charlie showed up. There's this weird buzzing in the, in the audio system. There's a lot of, oh yeah, feedback, all this weird stuff going on. It seemed like amateur hour and they had all the best people there. This, this, this guy who's messing with the audio, who had mic'd Charlie right before, I mean, when Dan Flood steps forward and touches his arm, that guy turns his head away. Maybe he was wiping his face on his sleeve. I don't know, but

• 2:00:55Speaker 03

  it, it looks like he's flinching, like he's hiding his eyes from what's about to happen or, or, or getting, you know, can't plug his ears, but it looks like he's wincing or, you know, in advance, ready for something. And again, it may be nothing, may have been wiping his chin or whatever, but I, I would prefer that he say that, since it's obvious he did do that movement. Why not just come out and say, yeah, you know, this is something audio people do all the time. We're always wiping our chins on our, wiping our mouth on our sleeve, you know? Our hands are busy. I, I don't know.

• 2:01:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:24Speaker 03

  There just, there was a lot of weird stuff, like, like right before Brian Harple, you just had him on the screen. Right before Charlie goes down, Brian Harple had been standing in basically the same spot the entire time.

• 2:01:33Danny Jones?

  Who is Brian Harple?

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• 2:02:37Speaker 03

  He's, he's the lead security contractor. So he lead, he led the company that Charlie used as a security contractor. Right before the, the bang happens, right before Dan Flood touches his arm, right before Phillip Goldsberry moves his head, maybe 30 seconds earlier, Brian Harple, who had been standing kinda up in front of Charlie, like maybe at Charlie's one o'clock or two o'clock, now moves to like Charlie's three or four o'clock. And there was really no explanation why. And if you heard him on the Sean Ryan Show, he said, hey, you know, the way we divvy up responsibility, we have a slice we're looking at. We have a spot in the audience. That's our spot.

• 2:03:14Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:03:16Speaker 03

  And so why did you move? Why did you, and, and he just happened to move in a position that would be really expedient to get to Charlie in a, a very short period of time. So there, there's all this weirdness. And again, if it's not a conspiracy, if Tyler Robinson shot him, then it's the most unfortunate set of, of coincidences.

• 2:03:36Speaker 03

  And I, and I, and I feel bad for him if that's the case, because it all looks terrible.

• 2:03:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I mean,

• 2:03:44Danny Jones?

  the balls to be able to go on Sean Ryan's show and blame the local cops for not having the coverage that they wanted is astronomical.

• 2:03:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, especially when you read, you know, he, he, the big reveal is he gives this text message. And when you read the actual text, they got everything they asked for. They asked for the roof above them to be blocked off from pedestrian traffic or to have one of their guys up there. And, and the, the local cop was like, yeah, we got you, man. And they, and they gave them both. They set up a temporary trespassing zone. Yeah, there's the, there's the text.

• 2:04:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Hey Chief Long, we received this message today from a student group, FYSA, whatever that means. There's a student roof access pretty close to where Charlie Kirk will be set up at the Utah Valley. The Sorenson Student Center has a couple of staircases that go up the walkways onto the roof. And this, I assume the cop is the one in the.

• 2:04:38Speaker 03

  That's the allegation, yeah.

• 2:04:40Danny Jones?

  You want roof, access to the roof? I was told students have access above us. If this is true, it'd be nice to either have it control, have it controlled access or allow one of my guys to be there as well if possible. I got you covered. Thank you.

• 2:04:54Speaker 03

  Okay. So he asked for two things. The roof above them, that's the roof directly above Charlie's head.

• 2:04:59Danny Jones?

  Which is the Sorenson Center.

• 2:05:00Speaker 03

  Well, it's called the Hall of Flags.

• 2:05:02Danny Jones?

  Hall of, okay.

• 2:05:03Speaker 03

  But the roof, the, you know, UVU is built on a giant hill. And so the buildings go down like this across campus. So the, the, the roof of one building is actually the floor of the next building up the hill. And so the Hall of Flags roof is, is here. And then you walk, or here, and then you walk on that and it goes up. And, and, and that now becomes the floor of the next building.

• 2:05:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:05:28Speaker 03

  And so what he's saying here is the Sorenson Center has a couple of stairs that go up to the walkways on the roof. The roof above them.

• 2:05:36Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:05:36Speaker 03

  The Hall of Flags roof, where they now hang the flag or where they hung the flag. So in other words, where Charlie's tent was, that he's clearly talking about the roof directly above Charlie's tent and only that roof.

• 2:05:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:05:48Speaker 03

  And so he says, I got you covered. What do you want? I want either to have it controlled access or I want one of my guys up there. And the guy says, I got you covered. What did they end up with? Controlled access on that roof and one of their security guys was up there. They got both.

• 2:06:05Danny Jones?

  So why is he, so what is he saying this guy did wrong, this cop?

• 2:06:08Speaker 03

  Well, they're trying to use this to say that the cops agreed to cover every roof on campus. And that's not what this is saying. It's just not saying that.

• 2:06:17Danny Jones?

  He just wanted access.

• 2:06:18Speaker 03

  He wanted access to one particular roof directly above Charlie. That's it. That's all they're talking about. And so they, they spin this to say UVU failed because they said they were, they had the roofs covered. Well, no, they didn't say they had the roofs plural covered.

• 2:06:32Danny Jones?

  Well, like, you know, what's so funny is like, you can get away with doing some dumb shit like this. That like anyone with more than 60 seconds to ponder, like the, the, you know, what this actually is.

• 2:06:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:48Danny Jones?

  Would figure out, this doesn't make sense.

• 2:06:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:06:50Danny Jones?

  But most people don't have the time. Most, most people just hear somebody say something with confidence on a podcast, like, oh, that's what it is.

• 2:06:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:06:57Danny Jones?

  The same way that guy who was, uh, one of the TPUSA guys who was a part of the, the hearing walked out and said, oh no, it's exactly what we thought it was. Nothing to see here. There's a huge majority of people like my parents who only watch Fox News, who are going to see that and say, that's what it was.

• 2:07:13Speaker 03

  Correct. And so they use this text exchange to say that UVU failed by letting Tyler Robinson on the Losi Center roof, which is 150 yards away. Because according to this text message, they had the roofs covered, the roofs plural. That's not what they're talking about. They're talking about one roof. They want controlled access or a guy on that roof and they gave them both things they asked for. They didn't just give them one or the other, which is all he asked for. Give me either or. Well, they didn't give you either or, they give you both and. They give you both of them. And so you can't use this to say that they failed. Now, maybe they should have had other roofs covered.

• 2:07:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:50Speaker 03

  Maybe you should have brought to the attention there were other roofs that were a problem because everybody that came in that day who's gone on the record, Blake Neff, Mikey McCoy, Frank Turek, several people, I think even Brian Harpo might have said, oh yeah, when we got there, we looked around and thought, oh, this doesn't look good. Okay. Well, maybe you don't put your guy out there. Maybe you say, hey, we had a total misunderstanding of this place. If you can't get, if you can't secure this place, we can't do this. You know, we'll, we'll just tell people it's delayed 30 minutes. They didn't do that. They just walked them right out there and put them under a tent that they thought was a death trap. I mean, that's again, that's my read of it, whether or not that's, that's true or not, but

• 2:08:28Speaker 03

  I, I am, I am less than amused at TPUSA's response to to that text message. That, that is fundamentally a dishonest reading of that text message.

• 2:08:43Danny Jones?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:08:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:08:46Danny Jones?

  Now, who is this guy who was taking photos with Charlie and some of the security people that day? Who, he was like a short guy with a beard.

• 2:08:56Speaker 03

  Butch Hibbs.

• 2:08:57Danny Jones?

  Butch Hibbs. Okay. Yeah. What's the story with that guy?

• 2:09:00Speaker 03

  I don't know much of the story behind him. Uh, I'd, I'd never heard of him before that day. I'd actually never heard of his brother before that day, but his brother is a fairly prominent uh, pastor apparently named Jack Hibbs. Jack Hibbs tells the story that Butch called him and said, hey, Charlie's going to be in town. Can you, can you give me a ticket?

• 2:09:18Speaker 03

  And Jack's like, well, it's la- last minute, but I'll call him and see. So he calls Charlie and Charlie's like, yeah, no sweat. I'll take care of it. And he ends up backstage with Charlie and he's taking pictures with the, you know, with Frank Turek right before the event. Maybe the last actual posed picture Charlie took before he died.

• 2:09:36Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:09:37Speaker 03

  But when Charlie dies, he's standing underneath the hollow flags, that roof we were just talking about, sort of behind the tent. And Candace Owens released a video that as soon as Charlie goes down, it seems Butch pulls out his phone and starts recording. He doesn't run for his life. He's just recording everyone running for their lives. It's a very bizarre reaction. And then, then he doesn't leave.

• 2:09:57Danny Jones?

  Behind the tent.

• 2:09:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. Cause people were filtering out behind the tent. That was like an exit path. Everybody ran behind the, or a lot of people ran behind the tent to get out. And, and Butch has his phone in the air. It looks like he's recording. I don't know what he's doing. But he's, he's certainly standing there, holding up what appears to be a phone while people file past him in panic and fear.

• 2:10:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's Butch Hibbs right there. That's him recording on the way in. Yeah.

• 2:10:24Danny Jones?

  Okay. That's when Charlie's walking in.

• 2:10:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's him. Uh, but that's him in the flannel and the beard there.

• 2:10:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:30Speaker 03

  Or it's a, it looks like him. I'll say that.

• 2:10:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:35Speaker 03

  But yeah, I don't know, man. It's, he just add him to the list of weirdnesses that.

• 2:10:39Danny Jones?

  What, what, so what is significant about this guy?

• 2:10:41Speaker 03

  I mean, nothing other than. We don't know. Uh, I have no idea what he did for a living. I have no idea where he worked. Uh, he operated a, or had a YouTube channel.

• 2:10:50Danny Jones?

  Look, there's him.

• 2:10:51Speaker 03

  Yeah. So after the shot, he hangs around for like a while. And yeah, and there are people going around getting interviews of people and he's, you know, I don't know if he's positioning himself behind them, but he ends up behind them. Almost like he's listening in to what they're saying. He hung around for quite a while afterwards, while everyone else left.

• 2:11:13Speaker 03

  Yeah. He'll, you'll see him come walking through here in a second. He walks by.

• 2:11:18Speaker 03

  But yeah, I mean, there's just a lot of, uh, a lot of weirdnesses with that guy that day, but I don't know his background. I mean, he had a, he had a YouTube channel he operated that had some videos of drones at one point. That's him right there, or someone who looks like him.

• 2:11:32Danny Jones?

  Oh yeah.

• 2:11:34Danny Jones?

  Oh yeah. That's the guy from the photo for sure.

• 2:11:35Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know.

• 2:11:39Speaker 03

  I have my suspicions.

• 2:11:43Speaker 03

  And he did not really react to it. I mean, he just watched it. That's it. That's supposedly the last posed picture Charlie took before he died.

• 2:11:51Danny Jones?

  And who's the guy on the right?

• 2:11:53Speaker 03

  Guy named Frank Turek.

• 2:11:54Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:11:54Speaker 03

  Another weird guy in the story.

• 2:11:58Danny Jones?

  To you, like, what is one of the strangest things that people aren't really paying attention to, or that people don't really cover all that often? That you think

• 2:12:10Danny Jones?

  maybe hasn't gotten the amount of attention it deserves or?

• 2:12:12Speaker 03

  I think the Dan Flood thing, people don't talk about it.

• 2:12:14Danny Jones?

  The him putting his arm.

• 2:12:15Speaker 03

  Yeah. That is so weird and no one talks about it. I mean, I've mentioned it several times. A few people have mentioned it. You'll see videos of it occasionally pop up, but I think until you get an explanation for what that was,

• 2:12:28Speaker 03

  it's, it's hard not to draw, it, it, it's possible it wasn't some sort of a sign, but it's hard not to draw the conclusion it was a sign. He, he looks right, looks left, or looks right, looks down, looks left, steps forward and does that weird thing.

• 2:12:44Speaker 03

  You know, what were you doing? And I think one of the reasons, he's probably the only smart one of the group. The reason people keep coming back to Frank Turk maybe being weird or suspicious is because he keeps going on podcasts and keeps talking. He's tried to become famous off of this, it seems like. Mikey McCoy shows up and does public appearances. Blake Neff, who was there, shows up and does public appearances. Uh, Andrew Colvet, who wasn't there, shows up and does public appearances. Erica Kirk, who wasn't there, shows up and does. So all these people who keep speaking out, they're only making it worse on themselves. Take Dan Flood's example. Shut up.

• 2:13:14Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:13:15Speaker 03

  You know, no one's talking about Dan Flood because Dan Flood's not saying anything.

• 2:13:17Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:13:18Speaker 03

  You know, Dan Flood came out and explained what he was doing and, oh, I was just scratching my bicep. Now people, a thousand people would do podcasts on, was he really scratching his bicep? Has anyone ever scratched their bicep that way? You know, here's 40 videos of people scratching their bicep. No one else scratches their bicep that way.

• 2:13:33Speaker 03

  And so I, I think that's probably one of the more underrated, just on the ground things that happened that day that people aren't talking about. Other ones, I don't know, man. This case is so every aspect of this case is, is, is just scrutinized to no end. So it's hard to say that there's something not getting enough attention.

• 2:13:54Danny Jones?

  Now, obviously Candace has gotten a lot of blowback and like a lot of threats based on all the coverage she's done. Have you, have you experienced anything like that with all the coverage you've been doing?

• 2:14:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't publicize it. Yeah.

• 2:14:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah. The TPUSA, just like, like not necessarily, I, I can't, I, for me, it's like, I don't, I can't imagine there's a huge like fan base behind them that would be like aggressively pushing against people asking questions, you know, like.

• 2:14:22Speaker 03

  You wouldn't think.

• 2:14:23Danny Jones?

  If, if, if, if my mom or my dad or one of my family members got killed, I would be the last person out there attacking people for trying to investigate it.

• 2:14:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:14:34Danny Jones?

  You know, I would be the last person going out there saying, case closed.

• 2:14:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:14:39Danny Jones?

  If I want to get to the truth of something, I'm the last person that's trying to seal the case and say, case closed. Usually people who are saying case closed are the ones that, you know, they want to move on.

• 2:14:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, you would, you would think, you would think that that would be the case, but it's not, man. There is a, a very sophisticated, I don't know if it's decentralized or not, but there's a very sophisticated group of people who are pushed back very hard on these things. And, and post, I'm not exaggerating, hundreds or thousands of times a month each in opposition to Candace Owens and other people covering this. I mean, it gets, it gets very vicious. Part of me wonders if they're not trying to just train the computer algorithms. You know, everybody now goes to chat GPT or Grok or Claude to ask questions. Nobody thinks anymore.

• 2:15:25Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:15:26Speaker 03

  And so if you go and you say, you know, is Candace Owens credible? And you've got all these people on X saying she's demonic and crazy and all this. That's naturally going to get picked up by these algorithms and it's naturally going to get picked up by these LLM models. And they're going to start to incorporate that into the output, you know, critics say, or maybe not even critics say, yes, she's nuts.

• 2:15:46Danny Jones?

  Like using bots to sort of train the LLMs?

• 2:15:48Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. Bots or even just people who are just obsessively posed, but yeah. I mean, there's a lot, there's enough of them that you can't think it's organic.

• 2:15:57Danny Jones?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:15:58Speaker 03

  You know, who has time to post a thousand times a month on anything, much less the same topic, much less the same take on the same topic. You know, it's just, you just run out of time.

• 2:16:09Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And the, the opposition certainly seems disingenuous.

• 2:16:13Speaker 03

  Opposition to what?

• 2:16:14Danny Jones?

  Like to the people that are trying to investigate the Charlie Kirk case, or that are trying to investigate the Trump case, the Trump shooting case and all that. Like, like everyone who like is allergic to anyone questioning it, it seems like super, like even Andrew Wilson in that debate, it just seemed so like I've watched a bunch of his other debates and he seems to be like really sharp, really on top of it. This one, he didn't seem like that at all to me.

• 2:16:36Speaker 03

  No, he didn't at all.

• 2:16:37Danny Jones?

  He seemed very uncomfortable.

• 2:16:38Speaker 03

  Well, he seemed, he seemed like he was on a mission. Like my mission is to get you to say something stupid. And I agree with you, like the, you know, if you, if you go back to the, the fundamental notion of why do people typically speak on certain issues is because they have some passion behind it.

• 2:16:56Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:16:57Speaker 03

  You know, so your passion in life is that you think Candace is somehow crazy. That's your passion in life? That's your, that's what you're, that's, that's what you want to be known as? Like, I always make fun of the guy who makes some college football team his identity.

• 2:17:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:17:11Speaker 03

  Like, I don't, I don't want anyone to think of me and think of college football team, you know? Now, maybe I'll follow one and I'll, or two, and I'll like them and I'll be happy when they win and.

• 2:17:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:21Speaker 03

  But if you think of me and you think of one issue, then I've not done my job.

• 2:17:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:17:27Speaker 03

  You know, I, I, I can't, I can't be that guy. And if, if the only thing you're known for is he opposes Candace Owens, he, he tweets obsessively about Candace Owens, he or she, like that, you failed in life.

• 2:17:40Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:17:41Speaker 03

  You've missed the boat.

• 2:17:42Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:17:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:44Danny Jones?

  And this is same thing with everything, man, not just sports teams, but with politics. People like to make a certain political candidate or a political party their whole identity.

• 2:17:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:53Danny Jones?

  Like, politics is the last thing you want to wrap your identity around.

• 2:17:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, because the people you're wrapping your identity around don't know you, they don't care about you.

• 2:18:02Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:18:03Speaker 03

  They're working against you in all likelihood. I mean, unless you're a corporate billionaire, they're working against you. I, I am amused. I used to fall into that trap, though, man. I used to, to really love these people and, and all these politicians. I thought they were, this is finally the one that's doing it for us. And then you realize, no, they're all the same.

• 2:18:20Danny Jones?

  It's that Bill Hicks joke.

• 2:18:21Speaker 03

  What's that?

• 2:18:22Danny Jones?

  Whereas the two puppets, it's like, oh, I like the puppet on the right. No, I don't know, I kind of fancy the puppet on the left. Oh, wait, it's the same guy holding both puppets.

• 2:18:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. No, I mean, there's a lot of truth to that. Yeah. Two, two wings of the same bird. I mean, there are a lot of, there are a lot of metaphors for it, but it's true. I like to look at it as a, a big spectrum and, you know, say it's a zero to a hundred. Well, forty to sixty is both parties. And there's a lot of overlap there. You know, they really only disagree on maybe forty-one to forty-two and fifty-nine to sixty over here.

• 2:18:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:56Speaker 03

  But everything from forty-three to forty, or to fifty-seven, fifty-eight, they're, they're in alignment on, right? They have a couple of small issues here on the periphery that they disagree about. And people will go all in on one or the other. Like, it's the same team, they're just wearing different jerseys.

• 2:19:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:12Speaker 03

  They're scrimmaging.

• 2:19:13Danny Jones?

  A hundred percent.

• 2:19:14Speaker 03

  They're just scrimmaging. In the meantime, everybody out here on all this other spectrum, you're not allowed to speak, you're not allowed to have an opinion. You have to be silenced, you have to be shut down. You're evil, you're crazy, how can you think that? And that's most of the people. Like, that's most of what we believe is not encapsulated in these small issues that, that politicians tell us we're allowed to talk about.

• 2:19:36Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:19:37Speaker 03

  The media tells us, you can only talk about these particular things.

• 2:19:39Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:19:40Speaker 03

  And that's, that's, um.

• 2:19:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, they stick to those talking points, for sure. Anyone with any kind of power or political power or anything like that, or like lots of money, they stick to those talking points.

• 2:19:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and the talking points are designed to keep you distracted so that we can spend a trillion and a half dollars a year on the military to keep certain waterways open.

• 2:19:57Danny Jones?

  I saw your tweet, you tweeted some guy, or retweeted some guy who was like, we cannot let foreigners come in and dictate our laws.

• 2:20:06Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:07Danny Jones?

  In our country or something.

• 2:20:08Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:09Danny Jones?

  Period. He was talking about immigration, you know, which is one of the go-to talking points.

• 2:20:12Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:20:13Danny Jones?

  And then, you know, you basically, you know, body bagged him with your tweet, with what you said about him using, you know, foreign influence in every single, uh, political party in the United States, like dictating all these crazy foreign wars.

• 2:20:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, they prefer foreigners who aren't here.

• 2:20:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:20:27Speaker 03

  Dictating our policies.

• 2:20:28Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 2:20:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's just the reality. But it's, it's it. I mean, that's.

• 2:20:34Danny Jones?

  It's a litmus test, I think, I feel like, just to see what people are talking about, like, what, what are their political talking points online? You know, and if it's, if it falls in line with sort of the general consensus that, you know, here's what the left team says, here's what the right team says, and as long as it's not too far outside of those boundaries, you can figure out what team they're on.

• 2:20:51Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:20:52Danny Jones?

  Which is, you know, which is more likely than not the, the uniparty.

• 2:20:55Speaker 03

  But I mean, which, which, which party is pro-war? You know, in the, in the nineties, it was, or the nineties and two thousands, it was the Republican Party that was pro-war.

• 2:21:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:21:05Speaker 03

  And the left was against, actually, in the nineties, the, both parties were for it. Then we had a period of time, you remember Cindy Sheehan, does that name ring a bell? She was sort of the face of the anti-war left. She was the one who camped out on Bush's, uh, in the, like, two thousand four, five, six, seven, and there, she camped out on George Bush's lawn in Crawford, Texas, and her son had died in Iraq, and she was so anti-war. And, and both sides sort of used her. The, the Democrats were like, see, she, she's hurt by this, and you should feel bad for her and end these wars. And the right was like, look, she's crazy, you should, you know, chastise her and support these wars. That, that's, and that's emblematic of, of the type of people who are against this war in nutcases, who camp out on the president's lawn.

• 2:21:46Speaker 03

  And, and so we played this game that Democrats were somehow, uh, anti-war, and that went on for a while. But when the, when the chips were all in the middle of the table and it was time to show your cards, and that was Ukraine, both sides revealed that they were pro-war. Neither side wanted to pull out of that. You know, as soon as President Trump started running, saying, man, maybe these foreign wars are a little much, maybe we shouldn't do that. Man, both sides jumped on it.

• 2:22:10Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:22:11Speaker 03

  And they're like, no, no, no, no, no, we, you know, we need to amplify what's going on in Syria, we need to keep going in Ukraine, we need to, and, and it, it let you know that it's just a game. They're just, they're just foe fighting on some of these major issues. Even on the issues they disagree on, they really agree on.

• 2:22:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah. No, you could play tape from now until next month of Trump saying how stupid the foreign wars were and how, how weak Obama would be if he invaded Iran and all this stuff. And it's like, he flipped on a dime.

• 2:22:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:22:42Danny Jones?

  As soon as he got elected.

• 2:22:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:22:44Danny Jones?

  And it's almost like that, that shooting in Butler was like at the, no pun intended, turning point for him.

• 2:22:50Speaker 03

  Well, he, he certainly seemed to change about that time. I don't, I honestly don't know.

• 2:22:54Danny Jones?

  I was optimistic after that happened.

• 2:22:56Speaker 03

  That he would.

• 2:22:57Danny Jones?

  That he would like, that maybe that was real and that was, you know, he had some sort of coming to Jesus revelation that like, you know, I almost just died there, maybe I realized, you know, how mortal I actually am, and I thought maybe he was gonna be. And then after, right after that, when you had the Republican National Convention where Hulk Hogan and Tucker Carlson came out, he seemed more measured than usual.

• 2:23:27Speaker 03

  He did. It was weird when he was like, I'm never gonna talk about this again after tonight. And I thought, that's really weird because the, all the guy likes toes, talk about himself.

• 2:23:36Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:23:37Speaker 03

  You know, and, and make himself a victim out of everything. Here's the ultimate victim, someone shot you.

• 2:23:41Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:23:42Speaker 03

  Uh, and you're not gonna talk about it again?

• 2:23:43Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:23:44Speaker 03

  That was, that should have been a notice to everybody that something weird was going on.

• 2:23:48Danny Jones?

  And again, like, the biggest betrayal of campaign promises.

• 2:23:53Speaker 03

  Oh, I, I, there's never been a bigger betrayal. He was so vehemently opposed to everything he's doing right now that, and had been for a long time. And, um.

• 2:24:04Danny Jones?

  Now, you're, you're, um, like, historically, you've been more of a right-winger.

• 2:24:09Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:24:10Danny Jones?

  Type of guy.

• 2:24:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:12Danny Jones?

  But you, so you, did you ever have any hope for Trump?

• 2:24:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:14Danny Jones?

  Even in the beginning?

• 2:24:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:24:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah?

• 2:24:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, I supported him in twenty, I didn't support him in the early primaries of twenty sixteen. I was on a local radio show back then, and I remember joking, not joking around, I was serious, you know, this guy's a clown, he's, you know, he's not serious, he's not really running to win. But I, I jokingly say this, but it's true. I bought a blender at Target, we needed a new blender. Small kids, I was making a smoothie, I, I need to go get a blender. So I go get a blender, hundred bucks, come home, plug it in, and, and the thing broke, like, the very first time I used it. And I got so frustrated, that was the summer of twenty sixteen, I got so frustrated, I told my wife, I was like, I'm voting for Trump. Like, he's the only one that's pushing back on these trade deals that are bringing all this cheap crap in.

• 2:24:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:59Speaker 03

  Like, I'm still using the hand mixer my parents got as a wedding present in the early seventies. But I can't buy a, a blender tonight and use it tonight, it's gonna break tonight. You know, I'm so sick of this cheap crap coming in from overseas, I'm voting for Trump. And I be, I went all in, man, I went in with both feet, bought the MAGA hat and the whole nine yards. Um, and then his first term was largely a disappointment. You know, he just didn't really do much. So going into this twenty twenty, uh, he lost. Going into the twenty twenty-four election, I was like, I'm not supporting him again. Like, he, he had his chance, he proved he doesn't have the mettle to actually do any of this stuff. But then after, you know, the primary starts going, like, all right, I'm all in again, let's do it.

• 2:25:41Speaker 03

  And then he, he wins and it's worse. It's worse than he was in the first term. So I've been all in a couple times and, um, he's been nothing but a disappointment as far as I'm concerned.

• 2:25:54Danny Jones?

  You think it's possible he gets a third term?

• 2:25:55Speaker 03

  No. No. No, not unless they change.

• 2:25:59Danny Jones?

  There's this theory floating around out there that, um, that, uh, the Maduro kidnapping was, first of all, Maduro's been a CIA asset since the, uh, I think he was, the Biden intelligence community, like, recruited him, and he's been working with CIA. This is just all a theory I'm, I'm saying right now, I'm not saying that this is true. But, um, Trump, basically, they got him to agree to be extra, extracted out of Venezuela, and they're gonna do a trial with him, and they're gonna give him the option to basically walk if he comes out and says that they used their voting machines to steal the election in twenty twenty. And Trump's gonna try to use that as an excuse to get a third term.

• 2:26:43Speaker 03

  How would that give him a third term, though? He's already served two terms.

• 2:26:45Danny Jones?

  I don't know.

• 2:26:46Speaker 03

  I mean, you still have the constitutional prohibition against serving more than two terms.

• 2:26:50Danny Jones?

  Right. That's a good point.

• 2:26:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:26:53Danny Jones?

  That's just a theory that's floating around, that, that's, he's gonna try to strong-arm a third term based on Maduro saying that it was stolen. I don't know legally how you do that, I mean, I guess you can't. The Constitution is, you know, I know it gets squirrely when you're a lawyer and you're dealing with the Constitution.

• 2:27:07Speaker 03

  So the, the question's raised then, okay, there are machines that were in Venezuela that could steal elections, where are they now?

• 2:27:12Danny Jones?

  In the US.

• 2:27:14Speaker 03

  Okay, can, can they still steal elections?

• 2:27:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:18Speaker 03

  So do we need to show up and vote? Or are they just gonna pick who they want anyway?

• 2:27:22Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:27:23Speaker 03

  You know, I mean.

• 2:27:24Danny Jones?

  That's the problem.

• 2:27:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. What happened to paper? You know, when, when Bush v. Gore happened in, in Florida, everybody came down and counted the ballots. You know, a lot of news organizations got access to the actual physical ballots. Remember, they were holding them up to the light to see if light could come through and, and they counted the ballots in every single news organization, even the ones that said George Bush lost the election and stole the election at the Supreme Court, they all came in and counted the ballots and they all concluded, yes, based on the availability of the physical paper ballots we have, George Bush actually did win the election.

• 2:27:58Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:27:59Speaker 03

  Well, we can't do that anymore. Like, I walk out, I don't get a physical ballot, I push a button, I hit a, you know, walk out and hope it tallied correctly.

• 2:28:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:08Speaker 03

  Um. If there are machines capable of stealing elections, then what's the point of voting? What are we doing? You know, I, I, I hope that's not true.

• 2:28:18Danny Jones?

  I think it's definitely happening at some level.

• 2:28:20Speaker 03

  I think elections are being stolen.

• 2:28:22Danny Jones?

  It's gotta be, there's gotta be fuckery happening at some level with all the elections. Right? I mean, just the fact that we know for a fact that it's illegal to bring your ID to vote in California, that's election fraud.

• 2:28:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:28:35Danny Jones?

  At some level, right? It's just a very public ridiculous level. But like behind the scenes, if that's what we can see, if that's, if that's the tip of the iceberg, imagine what's under the water.

• 2:28:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:28:49Speaker 03

  I don't know. I, I, I haven't delved too deeply into election fraud, but

• 2:28:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:54Speaker 03

  It's, you know, it seems to be that they, they've been able to shade elections at least one way or the other. They were awfully confident they were going to win the Hillary Clinton election and then lost. But that may have just been that they didn't cheat enough. They thought they cheated enough and then way more people showed up than they thought and Trump ended up winning, you know? There's always that, I mean, I thought the first election, I, I, I'd lived in a very deep red area at that time. And I vote in every election and I showed up to vote and normally you'd wait two minutes, maybe five, and there'd be 10, 15 people in line. I mean, there were hundreds of people. The line was snaking around the parking lot. There was no question Donald Trump was going to win Alabama at the time. No question.

• 2:29:37Speaker 03

  But still that many people showed up to vote just because they wanted to be heard. They wanted it to be a landslide. They wanted it to be over the top.

• 2:29:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:44Speaker 03

  And maybe they cheated, but they didn't account for that. Taking place in, in swing states. You know, people who'd never voted before showing up to vote.

• 2:29:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And I wonder how much of, you know, what's going on is

• 2:30:01Danny Jones?

  giving, making people lose hope about voting in general, you know? And like especially young people, people who pay attention, maybe they have, maybe they're losing hope and it's going to get to a point where like, we don't even bother showing up to vote. It's all stolen. There's no hope. And you, you know, you have it where like more of the older people, the boomer types, they, they value voting more and they think it's important and they're all going to show up no matter what.

• 2:30:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, a, a lot of the reason I hear people are not going to vote is not because they think they're going to be stolen. They just think that everybody on the ballot is compromised by the same political interests. So what's the point? What does it matter if I vote for you or for them? I'm not supporting these people. And if you want my vote in the future, don't become beholden to these other political interests and, and we'll see if people stay home or not. I don't know.

• 2:30:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah, man. It, it, um, the last few years to me just feels like it's been so much shit happening in the news feed from the Trump Butler thing to the Charlie Kirk assassination to, I mean, you name it, Lindsay Clancy thing, it just never ends. I can't even remember like the, we forgot about the Trump assassination that happened in July, attempt in July. There was something big that happened like three weeks after that and like everyone had forgot it. The news cycle had done a complete, was that the Olympics?

• 2:31:13Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 2:31:13Danny Jones?

  It was the Olympics shit.

• 2:31:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:15Danny Jones?

  I think it was the Olympics, uh, the, um, the whole like trans Olympics thing where they had like Apollo dressed up as like a 400 pound like trans lady or something like everyone was losing their shit over that.

• 2:31:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:26Danny Jones?

  And like every, no one was talking about the Trump assassination anymore. But since, since that period, it's just felt like this hyper normalization in the United States, which was like, there's this great documentary, documentary by this guy named Adam Curtis, who did this documentary called hyper normalization about the fall of the Soviet Union. How like everyone in the Soviet Union before the fall knew that everything was fake. They were living in a fake world, but they were just sort of like going throughout their days, pretending everything was fine, but they were all miserable and they knew they were like going like, like inevitably this train was going to hit a wall.

• 2:31:59Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:31:59Danny Jones?

  And that's sort of what I, what it feels like to me lately.

• 2:32:05Speaker 03

  You feel like we're in that hyper normalization now?

• 2:32:07Danny Jones?

  Yes. Where there's just like it, a fucking, I feel like the last three years has been so crazy. A spaceship could land on the White House lawn tomorrow and people be like, huh?

• 2:32:18Speaker 03

  Weird.

• 2:32:19Danny Jones?

  What's for dinner?

• 2:32:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:32:21Speaker 03

  Well, part of that is people are normal. I mean, people have lives.

• 2:32:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:24Speaker 03

  You know, I've got, I've got eight kids. I don't have

• 2:32:26Danny Jones?

  Jesus Christ.

• 2:32:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's, it's

• 2:32:28Danny Jones?

  How old are you?

• 2:32:29Speaker 03

  Uh, 46.

• 2:32:30Danny Jones?

  Damn, bro.

• 2:32:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:32:32Danny Jones?

  You're getting busy.

• 2:32:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. My oldest is 19 and they go all the way down to five.

• 2:32:35Danny Jones?

  No way.

• 2:32:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:32:36Danny Jones?

  Started young.

• 2:32:37Speaker 03

  I got a grandkid, dude.

• 2:32:38Danny Jones?

  You have a grandkid?

• 2:32:39Speaker 03

  I do. Hey, where do you think all these gray hairs came from?

• 2:32:43Speaker 03

  But yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's a, um,

• 2:32:48Speaker 03

  people have lives, you know?

• 2:32:50Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:50Speaker 03

  My Saturday is at, at least one ballpark, sometimes two or three, and then a soccer field. And then, you know, at night you gotta, you know, see your kids and maybe watch a ball game with them. Like we, we watch a lot of Braves games. Maybe we sit down and watch a few innings of the Braves game. And then you gotta get everybody ready for bed and you gotta wake up the next morning. And then if you work outside the house, you gotta take a shower, get ready, drive the commute. You gotta go do your job. You come home five, six, seven o'clock at night and, and the whole thing is over again. And you get in this dance of life.

• 2:33:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:33:24Speaker 03

  Do I have time to worry about an assassination attempt for more than a little while?

• 2:33:30Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:33:31Speaker 03

  You know, so the news cycle naturally is going to move on. You know, we don't have time to drill down. That's what I like about these podcasts. You do get hyper specialization.

• 2:33:40Speaker 04

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• 2:34:25Speaker 04

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• 2:34:27Speaker 03

  You know, I like the fact that somebody, I don't know anything about the Lindsay Clancy case. I don't know much about it, but I like that if I wanted to know about it, I could probably take a day or two and find somebody who's super hyper specialized on it. Watch 15 hours of their coverage and be boned up on it really well.

• 2:34:45Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:45Speaker 03

  Same thing with Charlie Kirk. You know, you can watch Candace, watch me, watch a few other people.

• 2:34:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:50Speaker 03

  You could probably get a pretty good understanding of the major issues. Now you may disagree with them, but at least we're raising them.

• 2:34:56Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:34:57Speaker 03

  I like the hyper specialization because it allows a busy people to have an outlet to go find a particular answer that doesn't rely on what Fox News is talking about that day.

• 2:35:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:35:07Speaker 03

  Cause in 2004, that didn't exist. You know, if, if you just turned on and whatever Bill O'Reilly told you was important, that's what, I guess that's what we're talking about today.

• 2:35:18Speaker 03

  And that's not the case anymore. We have, we have a lot of other options, a lot of hyper specialty. You want to know about intelligence communities, they're podcasters, that's all they talk about. You want to know about military maneuvers? That's all they talk about. And so you can get up to speed in an entertaining way by somebody who really has the time to dig in deep and says, okay, well this, this is what I've learned, you know? And it's almost as if you did it, that you would have come to the same conclusion.

• 2:35:47Danny Jones?

  Yes. But it's very different though, for people like you and me than it is for your normal everyday person who's, you know, people whose job doesn't, you know, you're, you're not talking into a microphone, you know? Like most people, they don't have the luxury of sitting down and consuming

• 2:36:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:36:01Danny Jones?

  Eight hours of specific content on something because they don't have, they have no, there's no reason for them to learn that. For me and you, that's our job.

• 2:36:08Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:36:09Danny Jones?

  But like most people, you know, they're more worried about like, gotta pick up the kids from school in time, gotta make dinner, make sure everyone gets to bed before I can get at least six hours of sleep before I have to fucking do it all again tomorrow.

• 2:36:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:36:18Danny Jones?

  So like they're just hoping to get their 20 minutes before bed to scroll Tik Tok.

• 2:36:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. And that's, but, but if they wanted to, the, the hyper specialized podcasters give them an outlet that they could, if they wanted to.

• 2:36:31Danny Jones?

  It's available.

• 2:36:31Speaker 03

  They could go bone up on some topic and they don't have to just open up a Google browser and go, okay, now where do I start?

• 2:36:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:38Speaker 03

  I guess I'll type in Charlie Kirk's name and see, or, or let me just turn on Fox News and see if they're talking about it. Oh, they're not talking about it? I guess I'm not going to learn about it today.

• 2:36:46Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:36:46Speaker 03

  You know, there, we have these outlets that allow people to, if they want to, gives them an opportunity to get up to speed on a wide variety of topics.

• 2:36:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:54Speaker 03

  You know, I, I watch all kinds of weird podcasts. Like I, I get weird.

• 2:36:58Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:36:59Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Like I, I have, if it's physics and space and whatever, history, alt history, uh, I love weird stuff. It allows my brain to sort of be entertained.

• 2:37:11Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:37:11Speaker 03

  To think through issues without, without getting depressed, man. A lot of news just

• 2:37:16Danny Jones?

  I agree with you.

• 2:37:17Speaker 03

  Waves you down.

• 2:37:18Danny Jones?

  Hundred percent with you on that.

• 2:37:19Speaker 03

  I'd, I'd much rather like consider, has Mars always been in that spot? This guy says it wasn't.

• 2:37:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:37:25Speaker 03

  He's fun.

• 2:37:25Danny Jones?

  It's funny how there's like a, a, a, a deep war between people who talk about like alternative history or, or, you know, alt propulsion or like ancient civilizations, between those people and like academia.

• 2:37:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:37:39Danny Jones?

  You know, like the science, the people that, the people that are like institutional ivory tower academics, like they fucking hate the people who go on YouTube and talk about alternate theories.

• 2:37:49Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:37:49Danny Jones?

  Or maybe we don't know everything about the past.

• 2:37:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:37:52Danny Jones?

  And it's just this crazy thing online that you see.

• 2:37:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:37:54Danny Jones?

  If you, if you look into it, if you start reading the threads on Twitter, these people hate each other's guts.

• 2:37:58Speaker 03

  They do. And, and it carries over into politics as well because you have your institutional ivory tower, you know, Charlie Kirk people who think I, Tyler Robinson did it. Why won't you listen to me? He absolutely did it. Everybody else is crazy. It's the same thing the physics professor at Harvard is saying. These guys are crazy. Why are they suggesting Mars might've made a close pass at Earth, you know, a few hundred years ago? You know, it's, um, it, it's a pattern that plays itself out in, in, in every industry. And I love, I'm a fan of the little guy. I'm a populist. I don't, I don't hide from it. A lot of people do, but I don't. I'm a fan of the little guy. I like the alternative story. I like to see if it's true because I think most of what I'm fed is garbage. And so I like to see, well, am I, is what I'm fed about that, is that garbage?

• 2:38:43Speaker 03

  You know, is what I'm fed about the pyramid, is that garbage? Is what I'm fed about the moon, is that garbage?

• 2:38:47Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:38:49Speaker 03

  And the more you look into, you're like, yeah, everything's fake. Everything we're fed on every topic is fake. You know, it's almost like the majority position is always wrong.

• 2:38:57Danny Jones?

  People want to fall into their, they want, they want to be, they want to fall into their tribe. And if they're in that academic tribe, like it's automatic, like no matter what topic we're talking about, no matter what field you're just of research you're discussing, like you're going to take the academics side without even understanding the, the, the science or the nuance that's involved there. You're just like, it's just like a team, it becomes a team sport. And then what's great about podcasts is sometimes people will get those opposing views in front of them in front of a microphone, unedited for three hours. And you'll just see, oh my God, this guy's a fucking fool.

• 2:39:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:39:29Danny Jones?

  You know?

• 2:39:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. They have to defend themselves outside of a classroom. In a classroom, they have a captive audience. And I'm going to lecture you and at the end of the quarter or semester, you're gonna, you're gonna regurgitate it back to me. And I'm gonna judge you based on how well you regurgitate back what I lectured to you. Get them in a freewheeling podcast or get them, you know, talking to someone they don't agree with for a couple, three hours. And people go, wait a minute.

• 2:39:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:52Speaker 03

  Maybe he doesn't have it all locked down.

• 2:39:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:55Speaker 03

  And I think there's, the establishment is frightened by that. And they feel, they feel their grip, they feel themselves losing their grip on everything. They're losing it on archaeology, they're losing it on history, they're losing it on physics, they're losing it on the ability to control who killed Charlie Kirk, how and why. They're losing it on what happened in Butler, Pennsylvania. They're just losing that grip. You know, I mean, it was a truism in this country for a long time. Of course you support the only democracy in the Middle East. Now you look around and people are like, that's now the minority position. That flipped quick. That flipped really quickly. And that's just one issue, you know, when, when every news organization is telling you, you have to support Ukraine.

• 2:40:32Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:40:33Speaker 03

  And then you poll people and like half of them are like, no.

• 2:40:36Danny Jones?

  What I'm concerned about is, I don't know how active you were on social media like

• 2:40:44Danny Jones?

  before and during the pandemic. You, I don't know if you were doing your show, you probably, you weren't doing your show back then. Right? So.

• 2:40:49Speaker 03

  Not, not the current.

• 2:40:50Danny Jones?

  If you, I don't know how much attention you paid to YouTube back then, like in like the 2019, 2020, 21 era. But YouTube was like locked down.

• 2:40:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:40:59Danny Jones?

  It was like, it was like North Korea.

• 2:41:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:41:02Danny Jones?

  If you said certain things, you could get strikes, get your monetization taken away. Like you had to walk on eggshells when you were doing, like anything. I could do podcasts on completely different topics. And if the word vaccine was mentioned, we'd be getting red flags, demonetization, worried about losing our channels. It was really, really bad. And now, ever since Trump got back in, it's been a total 180.

• 2:41:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:41:26Danny Jones?

  Where all bets are off. You can talk about, you can talk for four hours about the Holocaust being fake. No issues. You're going to get millions of views. No, nothing like that. Nothing to worry about. I'm worried about if it's going to swing back.

• 2:41:39Speaker 03

  It will eventually.

• 2:41:39Danny Jones?

  And what that's going to look like. Because Google's the biggest company in the world, right? Forget Fox and CNN. Like imagine how much control and how much they could tighten the screws on us.

• 2:41:48Speaker 03

  No, it, it will, it will swing back. It will inevitably swing back. The question is on what issues do they choose to start the swinging?

• 2:41:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:55Speaker 03

  The pandemic was an easy one for them to, to weigh in on because that was, you know, you could make the argument, what's life and death? They're, you know, they're, they're basically advocating for mass death. And they're, they're undermining safety. And so it was a very easy issue for them to jump in on. I, I was on an FM radio show at the beginning of COVID. I got off the air.

• 2:42:18Danny Jones?

  Was this after the legal career?

• 2:42:20Speaker 03

  Well, it was kind of that same time.

• 2:42:22Danny Jones?

  What a crazy transition. Went from law to talk radio.

• 2:42:25Speaker 03

  Well, I, so I had a, I had a talk radio show for, for six or seven years. And I was practicing law at the same time. So I would go on in the morning and then practice law in the afternoon.

• 2:42:35Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:42:35Speaker 03

  And so I kind of did both. But, and I just love the art of broadcasting. I, I, I almost, I can't, I go back and forth. I've gotten used to being in my office with the camera. Took a little while to get used to. But I really liked just being in a room, scattered radio equipment, you know, old timey talk radio feel and just letting it rip. Because you can, you can vocalize things that aren't going to be seen on camera. And so you can really lose your mind in a radio studio. Whereas if you do it on a, on a camera, people are like, this guy's insane. You know? But it's, it's, I was, I was on the air

• 2:43:18Speaker 03

  until November of 2020. So the first year or so of COVID. And even then, man, like, even local talk radio people were just getting hammered on the issue. If you, and I remember, I was, I got off the air before the vaccine came out. But I remember telling people, if they come out with a vaccine, there's no way in hell I'll take this. It will not be safe. It will not be effective. And even before the vaccine had come out, people were like, you can't say that.

• 2:43:44Danny Jones?

  It'll be just as effective as AZT was, right?

• 2:43:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. It'll only kill hundreds of thousands of people. So no, I mean, I get it. I think it'll eventually swing back. I don't know what it swings back on. Even on the Charlie Kirk case, it swung quite a bit. You know, in the very early days of the Charlie Kirk case, I used to show video of him getting taken down all the time. No red flags, no yellows, no anything. They just, it just went up.

• 2:44:07Danny Jones?

  On YouTube?

• 2:44:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:44:08Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:44:09Speaker 03

  And then.

• 2:44:09Danny Jones?

  A close up shot?

• 2:44:10Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:44:11Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:44:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. And then maybe three months afterwards, couple of three months afterwards, I went back and noticed all those old videos had been demonetized. No strikes, but just demonetized. I'm like, okay. So I went back and edited it out. Just, you know, play the game. And then realized that at a certain point, they weren't even letting you show like his hand. I had a picture of his hand holding the microphone. And that got demonetized. I was like, oh, I can't even show his hand?

• 2:44:37Danny Jones?

  Just a close up, like cropped out?

• 2:44:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. I was just showing the position of his hand, holding that microphone, saying, how's he still holding this if he's dead? You know, if his, this is before the, the autopsy report came out. But the idea that he had been shot in the neck and all this vertebrae. I'm like, but he's still holding the mic.

• 2:44:54Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:44:54Speaker 03

  And I'm just zoomed in close up on the hand and it gets flagged. I'm like, oh, okay. I see where they're going. So even on that, they've sort of changed. But if you play the game, you go back, so they don't like that. So I'll blur it out. I won't show that again. They kind of have left the Charlie Kirk case alone quite a bit. But they'll, they'll eventually swing back. It's just what issues do they choose to swing back on? And my guess is it'll be some life or death type issue. Either some future pandemic or some war position or, you know, the deep state intel community. It'll be something that they'll swing back on. You know, the more, the more of these former intel guys who start going on podcasts is starting to become very pervasive. You've hosted a lot

• 2:45:38Speaker 03

  of them. Sean Ryan hosts a lot of them. Julian Dory hosts a lot of them. Joe Rogan's hosted a lot of them. I mean, so it's a, they host them because they're great. They're fun to watch. They're great shows.

• 2:45:46Danny Jones?

  They're very interesting, charismatic.

• 2:45:48Speaker 03

  But I wonder at what point the intel community is going to lean on Google and say, stop this. This is not good for us.

• 2:45:55Danny Jones?

  Well, I also wonder how many of those guys are pushed and incentivized by the intelligence community to go on podcasts.

• 2:46:02Speaker 03

  No, I wouldn't go on there. But yeah, I agree with you. I think there's a lot of that.

• 2:46:06Danny Jones?

  I think that happens.

• 2:46:06Speaker 03

  I, I wonder how many of them are former.

• 2:46:09Danny Jones?

  Well, once in the CIA, always in the CIA.

• 2:46:12Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. I wonder.

• 2:46:13Danny Jones?

  Unless you went to prison, like John Kerry Akku did for blowing the whistle. And in that case, also, you could get crazy and say, wouldn't that be the best cover?

• 2:46:24Danny Jones?

  The CIA sent me to prison. How the fuck do you think I'm still working for?

• 2:46:26Speaker 03

  I thought it.

• 2:46:27Danny Jones?

  But Andy Bustamante, for sure, he's still CIA.

• 2:46:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, or, or at least sympathetic. I mean, you might just be institutionalized. And you get out and you still have your preconceived notions that you, you know, you know what you're not going to talk about in order to protect the, the real secrets, the ones you still believe in.

• 2:46:43Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:46:44Speaker 03

  So I don't know. I mean, it's, but it's, it's great theater. It's fun to watch. They, they're informative. They're interesting. But yeah, at some point, the intel community may lean into Google and say, knock this off.

• 2:46:57Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:46:58Speaker 03

  Not this guy.

• 2:46:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:46:59Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, these are, these other nine, we don't mind. But this guy, no, no more of him.

• 2:47:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:47:06Danny Jones?

  For sure.

• 2:47:06Speaker 03

  So it'll be interesting.

• 2:47:08Danny Jones?

  So what's going to happen next with the whole Charlie Kirk thing? Is there like a schedule? Is there a schedule for like another hearing? Is there going to be like a full on televised trial on the future? Or like, what are your predictions for how this plays out moving forward?

• 2:47:22Speaker 03

  I assume the trial will be televised. I assume the, the judge will let more evidence be seen by the public than he saw, than we saw during the preliminary hearing. Because at that point, a jury's seated. You're obviously not tainting a jury pool, right? The presumption in Utah is that it's public, it's open, it's, it's available for recording if you want to. That's the presumption in Utah. So I assume we'll see that. When that will happen? I don't know. I mean, it could be, it's a death penalty case. So it could be, there'll be a lot of litigation ahead of time. A lot of discovery disputes. There'll be motions and limine. There'll be 702 hearings for experts. There'll be a lot, a lot of litigation happening in the courtroom. How much of that is televised? I don't know.

• 2:48:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:48:05Speaker 03

  But I imagine you'll start seeing discovery disputes pretty soon.

• 2:48:08Danny Jones?

  But we won't hear about that publicly.

• 2:48:10Speaker 03

  We'll probably hear. But I mean, we'll see the filings. And if there's a hearing, we'll probably hear most of the hearing. There may be some that, that the judge says turn the cameras off. But I think we'll even see most of that. But you'll start to see discovery disputes because the defense is going to look around and say, they're not giving us anything. Like they're telling you they're giving us stuff, but where's the gun? Where's the phone?

• 2:48:29Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:48:29Speaker 03

  Where's the actual evidence? Don't give me a report. I want to see the gun. Where is it? You know, where's the bullet piece? Why can't our guy look at any of this stuff? I think that stuff will start to happen. And that's what I mean by if Tyler had died, none of this would be happening. We wouldn't care where the gun is. Who cares what his phone says? There would be no one, no one that would have standing to ask for it. But because he's alive, he's like, let me see the phone. Let me see the gun. Let me see the bullet. And, you know, I don't know that they planned for that.

• 2:48:59Danny Jones?

  Yeah. I'm really curious to see what happens when, I imagine he's going to have to take the stand at one point, right?

• 2:49:07Speaker 03

  Ah, I go back and forth on that. I, I think it depends on, on, on his liability, like what he actually did, because you don't want to put him on the stand and then him have to take the fifth.

• 2:49:19Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:49:20Speaker 03

  That's, that looks worse. You know, it's better just to quietly take the fifth outside the presence of the jury and then get a jury charge that the judge says you're not allowed to interpret what that means. Um, if you put him up there and they start saying, okay, well, did you drive anyone away from the scene? You know, did you, well, you know? So I, I go back and forth on that. I, I honestly think you probably won't hear from him on the stand. Um, but also based on what we've seen so far, I think the, the prosecution has a very heavy lift to convict him. Very heavy lift.

• 2:49:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah. I'm just curious if this is going to be one of those things that they just try to drag out forever and ever and try to like, try to get it to lose public interest and maybe try to make this happen very quietly behind the scenes.

• 2:50:03Speaker 03

  No, it won't be quiet. Um, there's been too much, too much, even if it's three, four years from now, it's been way too much coverage to this point for it to be quiet when it goes to trial. It will be covered. It will be a massive media spectacle.

• 2:50:15Danny Jones?

  Um, but how do they do it? Like if it's, if it is a cover up, how do they do this?

• 2:50:21Speaker 03

  Take a deal.

• 2:50:23Danny Jones?

  Uh, what I'm, what I'm saying, how do they do this whole trial without just letting so many more skeletons out of the closet?

• 2:50:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. I mean, they, they would be very incentivized to offer him a deal. Um, if I'm right, and, and he was involved in some capacity that would earn him a life sentence anyway, then what's, what's, what's to stop him from taking a life deal for shooting Charlie Kirk? It's the same thing. For him, it's the same thing. Um, and if they're like, look, we've got you. You're going to prison for life. We'll take the death penalty off the table. Go plead guilty. Let's go home. Um, and that, that keeps his family safe. That keeps his friends safe. That keeps anyone who might've been involved from getting tied up in it. It, it ties a bow on it. It neatly puts it away.

• 2:51:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:51:12Speaker 03

  You know, if you're him and you were involved in some greater plot, you might be very concerned about the people around you. You might be very concerned about the people around you. And you might be very incentivized to take a deal, even though you didn't pull the trigger. You were still involved. You got caught.

• 2:51:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:30Speaker 03

  Take the deal.

• 2:51:30Danny Jones?

  That's a good point.

• 2:51:31Speaker 03

  Um, and I, I wonder if that's not going to happen. I think it's the worst case scenario. Cause I want to know what happened.

• 2:51:37Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:38Speaker 03

  I want to know what happened. And if he takes a deal, we will never know what happened.

• 2:51:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:51:42Speaker 03

  That's Jack Ruby shooting.

• 2:51:44Danny Jones?

  Any hope that we will find out what happens?

• 2:51:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:51:48Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:51:48Speaker 03

  I have some hope. I have some hope. Um, I don't think we'll find out through the courtroom. I think if we find out what happens, it'll be.

• 2:51:56Danny Jones?

  The wrong word. The word I was, I was looking for was, uh, like, are you optimistic that we will find out?

• 2:52:05Speaker 03

  I'm optimistic that if the investigation, if the decentralized public investigation can continue, we will continue finding out more and more information and we will at least learn whether or not Tyler Robinson did it, whether or not we can figure out precisely the mechanism of death.

• 2:52:24Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:52:24Speaker 03

  Who pulled the whatever.

• 2:52:26Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:52:28Speaker 03

  Um, I, I, I am perhaps less optimistic on that. I think that'll take a whistleblower. That'll take somebody saying, I can't live with myself. I'm, I've got to come clean. And I don't know whether that person exists or not. Take a lot of gumption. Take a lot of courage because that might not end well for you or the people closest to you.

• 2:52:46Danny Jones?

  Right. Well, Baron, uh, thank you for doing this, bro.

• 2:52:51Speaker 03

  I appreciate it.

• 2:52:51Danny Jones?

  This was very fun. It was nice meeting you and, um, tell people that are listening where they can find your show, all that stuff, social media.

• 2:52:58Speaker 03

  Yeah. So social media is almost all under my name, Baron Coleman, B A R O N. Uh, if you just Google Baron Coleman, you'll find, um, the YouTube channel should, I think the X is going to show up. But if you go to, uh, Baron Coleman on X or I think the tag on is Real Baron Podcast on YouTube. But if you just go to YouTube and type in Baron Coleman, you'll find it.

• 2:53:17Danny Jones?

  Okay. Your channel is just called Baron Coleman, your name?

• 2:53:19Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, it's, it's, it's.

• 2:53:21Danny Jones?

  We'll have it on the.

• 2:53:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. I don't know what it is.

• 2:53:22Danny Jones?

  It'll be tagged on the whatever.

• 2:53:23Speaker 03

  Honestly, it's Real Baron Podcast is the title of the show, but, um, but I think the YouTube handle is at Baron Coleman.

• 2:53:30Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:53:30Speaker 03

  And then there's a clips channel you can subscribe to.

• 2:53:33Danny Jones?

  Cool, dude.

• 2:53:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:53:33Danny Jones?

  Well, all that shit will be linked below and, uh, thanks again. I really enjoyed this.

• 2:53:37Speaker 03

  I appreciate you having me.

• 2:53:38Danny Jones?

  Yeah, man. This was super fun.

• 2:53:39Speaker 03

  All right.

• 2:53:39Danny Jones?

  All right. Good night, folks.