#422 - "We Cracked Antigravity" NASA Physicists Shows Proof of Secret Tech

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Charles Buhler is the lead research scientist in the Electrostatics and Surface Physics Laboratory at NASA. Andrew Aurigema is a professional Aerospace Engineer. Charles & Andrew have developed the world's first 'propellantless' thrust technology to replace combustion rockets for space travel. http://exoduspropulsion.space SPONSORS https://dosedaily.co/danny - Use code DANNY to get 35% off your first subscription. https://butcherbox.com/danny - Get $20 off your first box, plus your choice of free ground beef for life, or free chicken thighs or top sirloins in every box for a year. https://ethos.com/danny - Take 10 minutes to get covered today, with life insurance through Ethos. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS http://exoduspropulsion.space *NEW* DJP MERCH https://dannyjonespodcast.com FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - New propulsion tech needs no fuel 04:23 - Working Star Trek impulse engine (electrostatic propulsion) 11:11 - Chemical rocketry won't get us to Mars 17:58 - "Hidden Momentum" experiment 24:39 - NASA's response to Exodus' research 31:33 - "We can get to Mars in 3.5 days" 37:16 - The $1.50 warp drive thruster 39:30 - First warp drive spaceship in history 45:18 - Fighting with U. S. patent law 51:57 - Andrew's homemade vacuum chamber 58:34 - What's holding Exodus research back 01:03:45 - Rocket industry reaction to Exodus' research 01:09:23 - Why the TicTac UFO probably isn't real 01:18:07 - Bob Lazar & gravity waves 01:22:48 - The missing scientist phenomenon 01:28:07 - Rocket explosions 01:30:58 - Charles says telepathy is real 01:34:54 - Conflict with chemical rocketry 01:43:48 - Video demo of fuel-less thruster 01:49:43 - Skeptics' criticism of the Exodus thruster 01:57:07 - The danger of high voltage experiments 02:03:04 - Biefeld-Brown effect 02:09:11 - Hidden military technology 02:15:56 - Saturn V's pogo problem 02:19:05 - Why we haven't been back to the Moon 02:27:38 - Re-used equipment in the Artemis missions 02:31:41 - The man who hacked NASA 02:33:52 - The dark side of the Moon 02:40:31 - Watching for orbs with Chris Bledsoe 02:43:04 - Charles' unusual orb experience 02:52:32 - The consciousness mystery 03:00:05 - Exodus tech as asteroid defense Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Danny Jones?

  Hello, I'm Chris Richards, General Manager at Safrid Volkswagen Richmond. I'm here to announce an exciting new program that I want you to listen to. Here's my friend Happy.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Happy Harry Turner, Special Finance Manager at SafridCredit.com. If you're in an open Chapter 13 bankruptcy, recently filed a Chapter 7, or you've been turned down because of credit challenges, don't give up. For nearly 30 years, I've helped people get reliable transportation when others said no. Visit SafridCredit.com. Remember, I'm not happy unless you are.

• 0:30Speaker 02

  What if one bottle could replace the benefits of eight steps in your skincare routine?

• 0:36Speaker 02

  Get glass-like skin and your time back with the resurfacing compound by You Beauty. This transformative serum works to visibly brighten, smooth, and even your skin while helping minimize the look of pores, dark spots, and fine lines, all in one multitasking formula. It's breakthrough science and streamlined simplicity in a single step. For science-proven results without the clutter or confusion, shop the resurfacing compound by You Beauty now at YouBeauty.com. That's the letter U, B-E-A-U-T-Y.com. Try You Beauty today.

• 1:23Danny Jones?

  All right, gentlemen, thank you for coming. You guys are some real deal scientists making it over here to the West Coast. Sorry?

• 1:29Speaker 03

  He's a scientist, I'm an engineer.

• 1:31Danny Jones?

  Oh, scientist and engineer, okay, cool. You guys figured out a new kind of propulsion that doesn't use fuel? Is that correct?

• 1:40Speaker 04

  That is correct.

• 1:41Speaker 03

  That's correct.

• 1:41Danny Jones?

  And you guys are right over on the East Coast of Florida, in Cocoa Titusville area?

• 1:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, we both came from the space program, the Kennedy Space Center. He was on the NASA side, the dark side.

• 1:54Danny Jones?

  The dark side?

• 1:55Speaker 03

  I was on the contractor side.

• 1:56Danny Jones?

  Okay, why don't we, for folks that are listening, break down who you guys are and what your backgrounds are? You want to go first, Charles?

• 2:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, sure. Dr. Charles Buhler, the lead scientist of the Electrostatics and Service Physics Laboratory, NASA Kennedy Space Center. I've been at the Space Center since 2000, on and off. I did a 10-year stint as a consultant for ExxonMobil, and then came back to NASA about seven, eight years ago. But I have a research lab, about 10 of us in the lab that I run there.

• 2:29Speaker 04

  And in my time off from NASA, we discovered this phenomenon, this effect. So we've been working this effect together since 2016.

• 2:38Danny Jones?

  So you're actually employed by NASA?

• 2:41Speaker 04

  I am a federal civil servant, yes.

• 2:42Danny Jones?

  Are they okay with you doing all these public talks about?

• 2:45Speaker 04

  Are absolutely allowed to, if you let them know ahead of time, yes.

• 2:48Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow, okay. And you were involved in all kinds of famous NASA programs, right? Like, including the Space Shuttle?

• 2:56Speaker 04

  Yes, I worked on the Space Shuttle, Constellation ISS, a couple of Mars programs, yeah, all of the space programs. At least since 2000.

• 3:07Danny Jones?

  Okay, cool, yeah, I definitely want to learn more about that stuff. And Drew?

• 3:12Speaker 03

  Andrew Oragima, 40-year veteran of the space program, contractor side. Been on Space Center since 1981, then did college, and then went back out there, and it was continuous up until I just retired out of the US space program three weeks ago to start my own company.

• 3:36Danny Jones?

  Oh, congratulations.

• 3:37Speaker 03

  Exodus Propulsions Technologies. And the goal was to do what NASA wasn't doing. So about 20-plus years ago, looked around, 22 years ago, looked around and said, "We're never getting out of low Earth orbit." It's just, the chemical rocketry is not the answer to anything. Least of all, getting out of orbit. So started looking at all the crazy electric propulsions that were coming out, all this stuff, said, "I just gotta figure it out." Because nobody else is doing it, so I'm gonna do it. About 10 years ago, 10 years, two months and three days, actually, a friend of ours, I went to him and I said, "I need an electrostatics guy."

• 4:21Speaker 03

  "I don't even know what electrostatics is, but I think I need one of those guys." And he hooked, my buddy hooked me up with Dr. Charles, who was also working on this in his background. And we struck magic since then. Now we have a fully functional electrostatic propulsion system that requires no fuel, no propellant, no oxidizers. It is literally latching onto space and pulling itself forwards.

• 4:51Danny Jones?

  It's latching onto space and pulling itself forward? Okay.

• 4:55Speaker 03

  Something like that, you know. I'm saying, I say one thing, he says another, but nobody understands what he talks about, so.

• 5:04Danny Jones?

  Is this kind of like what you hear when you hear people talking about electroggravitics or anti-gravity? I know that's kind of a fringe term, but are we in the same ballpark?

• 5:14Speaker 04

  I pray we're not.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, I pray we're not too.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  I don't want to be looped in with that.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  Anti-gravity has picked up some really negative connotation. We call it poisoning of the well.

• 5:25Danny Jones?

  Negative connotations?

• 5:27Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah, so many people have rushed out there and said, "Oh, I have anti-gravity. I have space drive, I have this, I have that." It's all been pretty much nothing. Most of it's atmospheric effects, but we literally have, and I don't know if we're allowed to say Star Trek, are we allowed to say Star Trek? I love Star Trek. We have the Star Trek Impulse Engine. You put in energy, a tiny, tiny bit of energy in the form of electrostatic charge, and you are rewarded with your spaceship moving, lifting off the ground, flying through space, doing all the things that you expect a really cool Star Trek spaceship to do. At the moment, it's little, it's tiny, we brought some examples. We're looking for our first big customer

• 6:12Speaker 03

  who's willing to take a chance on our propulsion system by replacing all of their chemical propulsion with our electrostatic propulsion. But we have literally the Star Trek Impulse Engine.

• 6:25Danny Jones?

  Okay, so can you break this down for like a third grader? What is electrostatic propulsion and how does it work?

• 6:34Speaker 04

  Oh, boy, you want to get into that right now, okay?

• 6:38Danny Jones?

  Very, very, very like 90,000-foot view.

• 6:41Speaker 04

  Sure, you know how I think it works? And have math to back it up, physics to back it up.

• 6:49Speaker 04

  It's basically a higher-order expansion, if you will, term of the force of attraction that we get from Coulomb's law. So essentially Coulomb's law is the attraction between two particles, right? They're either attracted or repelled. And we have all the physics that describes that, and how that's derived, how nature does that, why nature does that.

• 7:11Speaker 04

  This force, I believe, is manifested using an expansion of that set. So essentially, a higher-order perturbation. Perturbation theory is what's used to describe all of the physics essentially of what we have in quantum electrodynamics. So what we do is we just go to a higher-order perturbation and see what falls out. Now, it won't have the same strength or energy as its Coulomb counterparts, plus and minus is detracting and repelling, but at a lower energy, but it'll have an ability to actually move as a whole together. And that kind of just falls out of the expansion of the perturbation theory. It's a very strange thing, but it was never needed, it was never necessary, because no one's ever discovered this.

• 7:54Speaker 04

  We've known electrostatics for 150 years. We've never seen anything self-propel with just electrostatics. It's either attracting or repelling. We've never seen both the attractor and the repellor move together in unison. So I just went back to the physics books and said, "Well, what is the interaction physics for that?"

• 8:16Speaker 04

  Found out how it works in the second order, which is Coulomb's law, and then apply that to the third order, go further. Just go further, deeper down. And when you do that, we'll use Andrew's term, you're rewarded with physics that tells you where the force comes from, and how it enables and how it manifests, and why it's there. It's pretty cool, and it fits our experiments too. And I did the math over my vacation last couple of weeks to kind of show that we can actually verify that with our experiments, which is really outstanding, very excited, giddy about it. You're the first to hear about this, but it's super cool. But that's what it is. So basically, what happens is every particle interacts with another particle in the universe in quantum electrodynamics through an exchange of a virtual photon.

• 8:58Speaker 04

  Just consider it like, I was telling him on the way over here, like a string. So if I had to explain this to a third grader, every particle is attached to another particle with a string. It can pull and tension, or it can release and compression, either way.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Whether it's attractive or repulsive.

• 9:13Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 9:14Speaker 04

  We can't see these, but we know they exist in nature and they come out and they fall out in the math and it's very well known to science and they have a lot of effects on their own. The strings do. These imaginary strings, these lines of force, we call them. We can't isolate them as real particles. We can't hold them in our hand and look at them under a microscope, but they're there mathematically.

• 9:34Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 9:34Speaker 04

  They're attached to the charge, so we can't decouple them from the charge. You can have, you cannot have one or the other. You have the charge with the field or you have the field with the charge. You can't decouple them.

• 9:45Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 9:46Speaker 04

  So that's basically why you can't see this virtual photon. Mathematically, it's a photon, which is a light particle. A light particle is a real particle you can hold and see and isolate.

• 9:55Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  But there are three virtual photons in math and one real one. One of the three virtual photons could be responsible for our force, for our force. So what happens in the higher order terms is these other virtual photons exist and they give the momentum exchange with the particles without the recoil. That's what the math says. That's what falls out. So usually in second order, what happens is one particle is coming along. It releases this photon, so it recoils and the second photon catches it and it recoils. So like two ice skaters exchanging a bowling ball on an ice skating rink.

• 10:37Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 10:38Speaker 04

  The overall system from a thousand foot view means momentum is conserved. Basically what I started with is what I end with because I've exchanged the bowling ball. I recoil, you caught the bowling ball, you recoil. So there's no net translation of those two charges in space. That's basically Coulomb's law. So that's why plus particles and minus particles attract or they repel, but the whole system doesn't move as a whole. In the third order, someone gives a second bowling ball. They throw that first one to the other person, then they throw the second one somewhere else and they don't catch the second one. So if they don't catch it and you're tethered together, you're going to move as a whole. Or if the second person has a bowling ball, a second bowling ball and they throw it, they're going to go somewhere else and take you with them.

• 11:22Speaker 04

  So that's, that's the simple third grade analogy.

• 11:26Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 11:26Speaker 04

  Momentum conservation from quantum electrodynamics, third order, time independent perturbation theory.

• 11:32Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 11:33Speaker 03

  Scientist?

• 11:35Speaker 04

  I don't know if that made sense. But that's how I describe it.

• 11:39Speaker 03

  I've heard it 50 times. I have the same look on my face as you do.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  Sure. What do you want me to build for you?

• 11:48Danny Jones?

  So, okay. How did you first come up with the idea to, to create this? Like what, what problem did you want to solve? Did you just understand like what you said earlier? We haven't been able to escape Earth's lower orbit. We have to figure out a new way. Because I've thought about this too. You know, it's amazing that we've come so far with technology since, you know, the Civil War shooting. We went, we went from, you know, the 1800s during the Civil War, shooting muskets to like 80 years later, you know, detonating nuclear bombs. And since then, it's like, we haven't really gotten that much farther.

• 12:26Speaker 03

  I agree. I have degrees in rocket propulsion in aerospace. I'm a student of Goddard, the guy who invented the liquid rocket engine. I'm a student of Von Braun, the guy who perfected it. You know, he did some bad things with it, but for the most part, no, I'm way too young for that.

• 12:48Danny Jones?

  I was gonna say, you'd have been on his deathbed, you'd have been like a newborn.

• 12:51Speaker 03

  I have talked to people who were his students and by all accounts, he was a brilliant, brilliant man.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  I understand chemical rocketry, what you would call action, reaction rocketry, where you burn fuel and you create super hot gas and suck, squish, bang, blow and out, out one end goes the hot gas and out the other end goes the rocket. This is wonderful. You can get to orbit with chemical rocketry. You can buy chemical fuels. You can do the, the, the, the economics of chemical rocketry are very well known. You can do all the things you want to do in orbit. You aren't getting to Mars on chemical rocketry. You know, I know some people say they're going to do it. It's, you know, 40 or 50 launches to get enough fuel on your, onboard your ship to make the run to Mars every 22 months or some silly thing like that.

• 13:43Speaker 03

  But really it's seven years to Jupiter. It's nine or 10 or 11 years to Saturn. These are not the realm of, chemical rocketry is not the realm of a spacefaring civilization. I want to get out there.

• 13:56Danny Jones?

  Okay, hold on a second.

• 14:00Danny Jones?

  You're the first person, like legit aerospace person I've ever heard say that.

• 14:06Speaker 03

  Well, we all want, every engineer that's ever worked on a chemical rocket wants to work on a better one.

• 14:11Danny Jones?

  Right, no, no, no, I understand that, but you're like the first legit aerospace person who's ever said, we're not going to get to Mars with chemical rockets.

• 14:19Speaker 03

  The math is ridiculous. I mean, yes, it can be done. Don't get me wrong. Anything can be done if you're bored enough and spend enough money. But you're talking 20, 30, 40, maybe 50 launches to put enough fuel, to put enough impulse into your first kick. Cause once you run out of gas, your rocket's a paperweight. So if, if all you've got is that first kick to get you out of Earth orbit and, or to get you away from the earth and get you on your way, and then you gotta have a braking orbit, you know, all that, all that requires energy. By the time you get to Mars, nine months later, because you coast for nine months, then you, then you set down and your ship's empty. Okay, so you gotta make more fuel and that's just to get you back out of Mars orbit.

• 15:02Speaker 03

  So these are insanely complex and low yield. I mean, you might put up 1% of your initial mass on Mars, maybe less than 1%.

• 15:16Danny Jones?

  Is it true that like the, the starship rockets from SpaceX are like 95% fuel and only like 5% payload?

• 15:24Speaker 03

  It's probably higher than that.

• 15:26Speaker 04

  And that's not uncommon.

• 15:27Speaker 03

  And it's very common. A typical geosync satellite, geosynchronous is about 22,000 miles up. They're the ones that kind of hang out over Denver, hang out over Florida. They, they rotate with the earth. The rocket that takes to put that up there compared to the actual satellite that's in orbit, it's probably 95% rocket fuel, whatever. Generally they're thrown away. Sometimes they're now they're reused, but the satellite is 5%. And when you get the satellite to where it's going, 50%, 60%, 80% of the satellite is fuel to keep it there. Because there's always little perturbations. You gotta do station keeping burns. You gotta do all kinds of silly things.

• 16:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 16:13Speaker 03

  So you burn a lot of fuel and a lot of energy just to keep yourself where you should be. Well, when you're done burning your fuel, when, when your fuel is exhausted, and in the most cases, it's like monomethylhydrozine or something. When that fuel is exhausted, that's it. You get to go in what they call the graveyard orbit, which is move away from the important stuff because you're a danger at that point. You can't control yourself and the same, the same little perturbations are going to still happen to you. You might start drifting or sliding, whatever. We needed a better way. We need to get away from chemical rocketry into something better. And when I started, I didn't have the slightest clue. I hate electricity. It scares me to death.

• 16:55Danny Jones?

  Me too.

• 16:56Speaker 03

  It terrifies me that I work on a high energy, high physics electrostatic propulsion system that I haven't got the slightest clue how it works. That's what he's for. I don't have to know how it works. All they gotta do is say, am I going to get hurt when I touch this? And then not believe him because he tends to lie.

• 17:15Speaker 03

  So I spent the first 10 years chasing my tail, thinking about all the different ways that people were, you know, ion, ion engines, and I fully understand ion engines. They're, they're just chemical engines with a little electrostatic punch. So they get the ISP up around three or 4,000, even that's not worthy of it.

• 17:35Speaker 03

  Then I found somebody who actually understood what is the only viable solution. And that is the fields that make up space. That's what we want to do. Okay. I watched a lot of Star Trek. They were always doing warp and stuff. It's great. It's the greatest thing ever. So I had to find somebody that understood fields and I did. Sadly it was Charles, but you know, we do with, we make do with what we have. But now I love him like a brother, so.

• 18:06Speaker 04

  That'd be too true.

• 18:07Danny Jones?

  Can we talk about the most underrated organ in your body? The liver. It's performing more than 500 functions every single day, supporting digestion, energy production, fat metabolism, vitamin storage, and processing basically everything you consume. That's why I've been using dose for your liver. It's a clinically backed liver health supplement, but instead of another pill or powder, it's a daily two ounce liquid shot. It tastes just like fresh squeezed orange juice with zero sugar, zero junk and zero calories. Dose is designed to support daily liver function and aid your liver so it can process the unwanted elements so it can keep doing its job. And the science is solid. Dose has been studied in two double blind placebo controlled studies showing a positive

• 18:51Danny Jones?

  impact on liver enzyme levels. Ready to give your liver the support it deserves? Head on over to dosedaily.co/danny or enter the code DANNY to get 35% off your first subscription. The body does so much for you. It's time to do something for it. That's D O S E D A I L Y dot C O slash Danny for 35% off your first month subscription.

• 19:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, I came at it from a different view.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  I think it was the early nineties, you know, when I was taking, going to high school and, and looking at rocketry and stuff. I said, you know, rockets are cool, but I want something better. I want to see something better. My, I guess, I think that really got me excited was that Back to the Future, seeing the hoverboards and the flying cars. Like, there's gotta be a way to do this. Just don't know how to do it yet.

• 19:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 19:40Speaker 04

  There's gotta be a better way. And so I, you know, I go through school and I go into, you know, undergrad and then I go into grad school in physics. And I said, okay, I've understood all the physics, at least what's out there. What's the best path forward for that?

• 19:57Speaker 04

  So I guess it was around 2000, 2001.

• 20:01Speaker 04

  The most logical place to start for me would be the conservation of momentum.

• 20:08Speaker 04

  From using a concept called field momentum. Now field momentum is electric field cross product with a magnetic field, E cross B. It's kind of a strange term, electric field cross magnetic term, but that's called the pointing vector. Essentially what that means is anytime you have an electric field and a magnetic field in the same spot, you have a momentum. See what? You have a momentum. They've known that since the 1800s, 1860s or so. And if you change that momentum, you get a force. So I said, well, this might not be, you know, why have people been doing this? And they have since the 1940s, 1950s, these E cross B thrusters.

• 20:50Speaker 04

  But it turns out they discovered a new momentum in the 1970s. All these momentum are being discovered called hidden momentum. Hidden momentum is a relativistic effect. And what that is, is it counteracts any field momentum that you have in your system. If the charges are allowed to flow. So for example, if I tell you that any object that has an electric field and a magnetic field in it that have a non-zero cross product basically means they're perpendicular.

• 21:17Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 21:17Speaker 04

  At some point, if there's, if that exists anywhere, there's momentum. That's what science will tell you. Like that thing's not moving. If I take a magnet, a bar magnet, and I put 10,000 volts on it, you tell me that thing has momentum now? It does, absolutely does. But it also has hidden momentum, which is a counteracting momentum due to relativistic charge moving inside the magnet, inside the bar magnet. Oh, that's weird. So you got all these momentum. So I was like, okay, well, I gotta get rid of this hidden momentum because it's killing my force that I want to make. E cross B, I want to just make an E cross B and kill it, get my force.

• 21:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:56Speaker 04

  Now you can do that in the angular case. Richard Feynman, the very famous Richard Feynman, if you've heard of him.

• 22:03Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 22:04Speaker 04

  He gave his students a disk. You have a frisbee, he's getting an experiment. You have a frisbee, a disk, and you have little balls on the edges of the disk like beads, and you charge them up, just put some charge on them.

• 22:16Speaker 04

  And you put it through a solenoid. Turn on the solenoid, nothing happens. You turn off the solenoid, the disk rotates. Where did the momentum come from? He gave that to his graduate students as a homework problem. Sick man. But it turned out there was momentum stored in that field, that E cross B. It was non-zero. And when you shut it off, it gives a thrust. It gave a, a force. And that has been verified in the seventies. You can actually turn things that way using this effect. I said, well, I gotta just do the linear analog to it, not the angular, but the linear. And that's where the hidden momentum came into effect.

• 22:52Speaker 03

  So interesting.

• 22:53Speaker 04

  So the hidden momentum counteracts the, uh, the actual effect that you would like to have in the angular case that's not there. So Drew came to me in 2016 with an experiment that was working. You know, it was crude and it was nice, but it was crude. And I thought, well, I didn't think, my wife thought, because she's the smart one.

• 23:15Speaker 03

  Yes, she is.

• 23:16Speaker 04

  She said, isn't that the same kind of thing you're working? It's a different flavor. Said, oh, well, that can't be. Let me go back to my lab and build something based on what you're, she thought it was. And, you know, we thought it was. And, and then we made that, that giant needle thing.

• 23:33Speaker 03

  The giant needle thing of death.

• 23:35Speaker 04

  That's the experiment that you guys.

• 23:36Speaker 03

  Giant needle thing of death.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  It was one of the first, uh, needle things. It moved about three, four feet in the air. It was 140,000 volts, but it was covered in, in tape and, and it was, it was awesome. It was like $10, $5 worth of stuff. And I just looked at that and said, that sucker's moving. So from then on, I thought that the field momentum experiment was the correct one. Because I have static charges now. And Drew had a static charge experiment where there was no hidden momentum. Woo, isn't that exciting? No hidden momentum, but it still had the field momentum and I'm still able to change that field momentum to get my thrust.

• 24:13Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 24:14Speaker 04

  So I'm like, oh, we're on to it now. Woo. And then, you know, after 20 years working on that theory and, and two solid years, he and I working on that almost every day, it was wrong. It was just wrong.

• 24:26Speaker 03

  Very wrong.

• 24:27Speaker 04

  And, and that's how science is. You might believe something, but nature doesn't care what you believe.

• 24:32Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 24:32Speaker 04

  Nature has its own plans. But the reason why we went forward with it is because something was moving. So now we gotta figure out what was moving.

• 24:41Speaker 04

  So when we took one of these, uh, forms of the Pac-Man thruster, we'll show you some of these ridiculous things. And shoved it into a vat of styrofoam, we had no more B field, which means we had no more current. So now things got very, very weird. So imagine not having any current, which means you don't have any power.

• 25:00Speaker 04

  Cause power is voltage times current.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 25:02Speaker 04

  So you're not expelling a lot of power and you're getting thrust. So that made things very, very strange.

• 25:10Speaker 04

  But it made things a lot easier to build.

• 25:13Speaker 04

  So then I had to go back to the math and say, well, I'll get, get rid of all this current. Gotta get rid of all this B field out of here. And then let's see if this thing can conserve energy. So I have some math where I did some, you know, simple conservation of energy, classical sense, to see if we can at least get something out of it that we could build, something that we could just tell us what to do.

• 25:32Speaker 04

  Based just on electric fields. And we were able to do that and we'll show you some of those today.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. Do you want, do you want to go through the, we have a really quick little slideshow?

• 25:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, let's see.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  It shows some of this stuff.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Fantastic.

• 25:42Speaker 03

  Just go ahead and, I don't, I don't know.

• 25:43Speaker 04

  Which one? You want to start from the top here?

• 25:45Speaker 03

  I'm no good with computers either.

• 25:48Speaker 04

  Engineer that doesn't, doesn't get with computers. This is not an order, Drew. Do you want this to be in any kind of order?

• 25:52Speaker 03

  Start with zero, start with the first one.

• 25:55Speaker 04

  Okay. Well, I'll have to rename them.

• 25:56Speaker 03

  What does NASA think about you guys doing this stuff? Start with O1.

• 26:01Speaker 04

  That was it.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  I don't know, I don't work for NASA.

• 26:05Speaker 04

  I mean, I, I think they, they like it. We just.

• 26:07Speaker 03

  They think you guys are kooks or, or, or they think you guys are?

• 26:10Speaker 04

  I don't know if there's any official word from NASA on this.

• 26:13Speaker 03

  We have showed it to them several times.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  What was their reaction?

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Uh, go away and don't bother us.

• 26:20Speaker 04

  Pretty much who you talk to.

• 26:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. But pretty much it was go away, because whatever you are, we don't care.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  For me, you know, NASA.

• 26:27Speaker 03

  Listen, guys, we figured this out in the fifties. Leave us alone.

• 26:30Speaker 04

  No, for me, NASA, we have what's called different, um, swim lanes, if you will, at the different space centers. So each space center is allowed to work on a certain technology. And then when it gets to a certain maturity level, you have to hand it off to another space center. So that would be very disadvantageous for us to take this to our space center because we'd have to stop working on it. And we're much more advanced.

• 26:51Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 26:51Speaker 04

  And we'd have to hand it off to another space center.

• 26:53Speaker 03

  I understand.

• 26:54Speaker 04

  So we, we decided just to do it outside.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 26:57Speaker 04

  And just use, use it as an outside activity.

• 26:59Speaker 03

  Exactly. And you're having fun doing it too.

• 27:00Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, I want to have fun doing it. So I don't want, I don't want to be told not to, not to do it.

• 27:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:05Speaker 04

  So we just decided to keep doing.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  Okay, so hold on there for a second.

• 27:08Speaker 04

  Okay, you go.

• 27:09Speaker 03

  Is it ready?

• 27:10Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 27:10Speaker 03

  Okay. I've been at this a while.

• 27:12Speaker 04

  That's you?

• 27:13Speaker 03

  That's me in 69 in front of what became, uh, Apollo 11.

• 27:18Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 27:18Speaker 03

  Back then they had a much more lenient program for family day.

• 27:23Speaker 04

  That's a cool fucking photo, man.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  And I took another one 50 years later with me standing in the exact same spot.

• 27:28Speaker 04

  Really cool photo.

• 27:30Speaker 03

  With the Artemis, uh, one, go ahead. So I've been at this a while. That's me before warp drive. That's me, I used to build telescopes. I built everything you see in that picture, including the concrete that the hangar sits on.

• 27:42Speaker 04

  What is that?

• 27:43Speaker 03

  That is a 0.8 meter research grade telescope. I ground the lens, ground the mirrors, um, metallized them, built the entire structure and worked with a team of geniuses on the, on the guidance and control systems for it. So I was seriously into astronomy and telescopes, um, before I jumped into warp drive. So, um, yeah, it was just me playing out. That's right out in front of my house. And of course, you know, there's Dr. Charles, smartest man in the room.

• 28:13Speaker 03

  And, uh, you know, we, we love that whole ancient aliens thing and, and, you know, all the crazy theories. We love, we live for this stuff. So, um, that's our, one of our labs. Uh, okay. Yeah. That's when we first got together. That might be in the old, old lab, like in 2016.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's in Cape Canaveral, yeah.

• 28:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's, that's when we, that's when we first got together. As always, we started with, uh, squiggle boards, which I, what I call them. And I'd wait for him to fill up a little squiggle board with whatever he was squiggling on. And then I'd say the, the same words I tell him every time, what do you want me to build you? I can build anything, but I can't read his mind. So he would do some squiggles. We had our first, um, intern.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  That's our first intern. Go ahead. And then that's our first test bench where we were building high voltage power supplies because curiously enough, we couldn't buy the high voltage power supplies that we needed. So we had to end up building them.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  There, and we burned a lot of them up and we learned a lot about building high voltage power supplies. That was one, probably our first, um, live production thrust device. The entire little thing that looks like a fish tank.

• 29:23Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  Is, um, actually, um, uh, ITO coated, um, PET plastic, which just means that it's a, um, there's a thin metal film on all of the plastic so that we can ground the entire box. It's like being in a metal box. So that's the Faraday shield around the test article.

• 29:40Speaker 04

  So this is like a, like a little Faraday cage?

• 29:42Speaker 03

  That is a Faraday cage. You can see through it, but that is 100% Faraday cage shielded. All the grounds are tied together so that if there's any thrust created in the box, it isn't the box attracting to some other article in the room. So it's not, it's not Coulomb attraction. If there's any thrust created, it's because we are moving relative to space.

• 30:07Speaker 04

  So when you say that, are you referring to the Casimir effect? Is that kind of like similar? No? No, the Coulomb attraction is what I was talking about earlier. If you have a charge on anything, doesn't matter what it is.

• 30:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 04

  It'll attract to a ground.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  Okay, got it.

• 30:21Speaker 04

  Cause they'll just induce a field into the ground of the opposite polarity. And it doesn't have to be a good ground, it could be wood, floor, anything.

• 30:27Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 30:28Speaker 04

  So you have to make sure you shield it. And we always measure the force on the box. That's that little force meter on the right there. That's measuring the force on the entire box, not what's in it. Not just what's in it.

• 30:39Speaker 03

  And since both of us worked after hours, you know, after our jobs.

• 30:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 30:43Speaker 03

  Um, obviously I'm the one wearing the tie and he's the one wearing the khaki shorts.

• 30:49Danny Jones?

  You guys are a great team.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  Then the madness happened one day. I came in the shop.

• 30:53Danny Jones?

  Popcorn?

• 30:54Speaker 03

  No, there was a blob of foam.

• 30:56Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 30:56Speaker 03

  And he's jumping up and down screaming, "It works, it works, it works."

• 30:59Speaker 04

  Well, I had to get.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  What works?

• 31:01Speaker 04

  Sometimes these air tests are terrible because you'll ionize the air and then the charges from the room will get to the outside of your test article and mess with your fields. So how do I keep the air away from my damn thruster? Knowles my fields.

• 31:15Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  So I use the brain blob here of spray foam to do that.

• 31:21Speaker 03

  That thing right there produces thrust.

• 31:24Speaker 04

  Well, what's in it does.

• 31:25Danny Jones?

  A giant piece of popcorn?

• 31:26Speaker 03

  No, that, that piece of foam. And that piece of wire produced thrust. It's in our patent. You should look it up.

• 31:33Speaker 04

  The foam is not.

• 31:34Danny Jones?

  Have you ever opened your fridge, aimlessly stared into it for five minutes and then convinced yourself there's nothing to eat? That's what happened to me before I started using ButcherBox. ButcherBox delivers 100% grass-fed beef, organic chicken, wild-caught seafood, and more, all sourced to standards they can actually tell you about. They've already done the research and made the sourcing decisions, so all you have to do is decide what's for dinner. It's honestly made eating healthy way easier for me because I always know I've got high-quality protein in the freezer that's ready to go. And when I'm hosting people or doing a cookout or just trying not to order takeout again, it saves me a trip to the store and lots of last-minute scrambling. I keep a few of the staples stocked at all times, usually the beef, the chicken, and some fish. So when I need something quick, I've already got the real options ready waiting for me. For me, it just makes the healthy choice the

• 32:18Danny Jones?

  easy choice. If you're looking for an easier way to get great meals on the table, give ButcherBox a try. Go to butcherbox.com/danny to get $20 off your first box, plus your choice of free ground beef for life, or free chicken thighs, or top sirloins in every box for a year with free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com/danny. It's spelled B-U-T-C-H-E-R-B-O-X dot com slash D-A-N-N-Y. And be sure to use the link below so they know we sent you. How much force have you guys been able to create to date?

• 32:53Speaker 03

  Uh, to date, about 50 millinewtons.

• 32:57Danny Jones?

  And what is that in English?

• 32:58Speaker 03

  50 millinewtons is about enough to lift, uh, two of these, two of these pieces of paper. Just two pieces of paper, about 50 millinewtons.

• 33:06Danny Jones?

  In on Earth's gravity?

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Well, yeah. We, yeah, the test is in a vacuum chamber.

• 33:10Danny Jones?

  The idea is if you guys are in space, that's a decent amount of thrust.

• 33:14Speaker 03

  Well, the idea is that you put 1,000 of those together and you have a 5 newton thruster. And you put a 5 newton thruster behind anything and you can be at Mars in three and a half days.

• 33:23Danny Jones?

  What? With 1,000 of what you've been able to create?

• 33:27Speaker 03

  Maybe 10,000. I don't know, I haven't gotten that big yet. But yes, we can produce 0.38 G continuous acceleration from Earth orbit to anywhere on the Mars surface in three and a half days. We could build a spaceship. We can't because we can't afford a spaceship.

• 33:43Danny Jones?

  So your biggest problem, your biggest hurdle is getting into space?

• 33:47Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 33:47Danny Jones?

  Maybe you can use traditional rockets to get into space?

• 33:50Speaker 03

  And that's our goal is.

• 33:51Danny Jones?

  Throw those away and then use what you've got done.

• 33:53Speaker 03

  You know, we need to ride into space and then once we're there, we can produce enough thrust to land on any other object in the solar system.

• 33:59Speaker 04

  Very, very weak thrust, but it's like driving a really old, broken car from the 60s. It doesn't work very well. You floor it, it moves. But if you keep it floored and you never run out of gas, you're going to be the fastest car on the planet.

• 34:14Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 34:14Speaker 04

  In a few hours.

• 34:17Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah. And you never have to go to the gas station.

• 34:19Speaker 03

  The numbers are staggering. Most people don't even believe them. And it is, you think, how is a little blob of foam going to ever do any of the things that this guy is, is saying is going to happen?

• 34:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 34:28Speaker 03

  But if we had a spacecraft, and let's say it weighed 45 tons, metric tons, and 30 of those metric tons were propulsion system, which leaves 15 tons for the spacecraft, the people, the ham sandwiches you want to take with you, whatever, and your flush toilet, by the way. Um, and you're in Earth orbit. Three and a half days later, you're, you're, you're on the surface of Mars. Three and a half days, because during those three and a half days, you continuously accelerated at 0.38 Gs, which means that you had the ability to pour your coffee in your mug the whole time. You can flush the toilet the whole time. If you're wondering why I'm so obsessed with toilets, you go wear a diaper for nine months and see how happy you're going to be when you get to Mars.

• 35:13Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 35:14Speaker 03

  On chemical rocketry.

• 35:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah, that would suck.

• 35:16Speaker 03

  Our, ours has continuous acceleration. You continuously accelerate to the halfway point, you flip around 180 degrees, and you decelerate from there. At the midpoint, we're doing about a million miles an hour, but we're only doing it for a few hours.

• 35:29Danny Jones?

  What?

• 35:30Speaker 03

  Well, because you're accelerating the whole way there at 0.38 Gs. Then after that, you decelerate all the way at 0.38 Gs until you drop into, until, you don't go into orbit because orbits are so 20th century. You literally just drop into Mars.

• 35:45Danny Jones?

  You just drop straight in.

• 35:46Speaker 03

  And drop down. You're under thrust.

• 35:49Speaker 04

  You don't have to ever turn the thruster off.

• 35:52Speaker 03

  Right. You never have to turn the engines off.

• 35:54Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 35:55Speaker 03

  And Mars is only.

• 35:56Danny Jones?

  That's why we had to do orbit stuff for the moon stuff.

• 35:58Speaker 03

  That's right, because the Earth is, is pulling on you and you only have so much impulse. But when you can never have to turn the engines off and your engines can make, say, 0.39 Gs, and the Mars surface is only pulling at you at 0.38, that means you go down slowly. And then when you get right down near the surface, you crank up the engines to match Mars's gravity pull and you just, you don't need landing legs, you could just hover. But obviously you would land, get out, you know, go do whatever it is you're going to do. And then from the moment you turned on the engines to the moment you are on Mars, you have the same gravity load on your body. So no more, no more of your bones starting to deteriorate, no more, um, you're atrophying your muscles.

• 36:41Danny Jones?

  Radiation.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  Well, you still have a lot of problems. Don't, we haven't solved any of the big problems. You still have cosmic rays.

• 36:46Speaker 04

  But only three days of exposure, not nine months.

• 36:48Speaker 03

  You get three and a half days of exposure, not nine months.

• 36:51Danny Jones?

  That's true. That's, that's a big plus.

• 36:53Speaker 03

  And if for some reason you think, well, that would require a nuclear reactor and they would have to have all this other stuff. The energy requirements to get to Mars are the same as, your, the, the battery in your car could easily supply the energy to keep the engine running for the three and a half days it takes to get to Mars. And you say, well, that's ridiculous. But remember, we're electrostatic. It doesn't take that much to generate charge. It takes a lot to generate current and B field, but we're neither of those two things. So once we have our static field formed.

• 37:30Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 37:31Speaker 03

  The unit, you could literally, we can turn the power off. Yeah, I know, it sounds, it sounds crazy. These crazy guys are even crazier. But we could literally turn the power off and the engine stays on. And if you really want to hear the explanation of that, you get yourself some Excedrin and, and a stiff cup of coffee and he can explain it to you. So anyhow, moving on.

• 37:54Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 37:54Speaker 03

  This is a typical day from anywhere in the last 10 years.

• 37:58Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  Dr. Charles is up at the board giving out the very last theory ever.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  That's old stuff.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  Many, many of these. They were all wonderful. They were all wrong. Now we have them right. This is very typical. We're getting ready to, we just built the thing. We're getting ready to test something. You know, this is the team. This silly thing is what I have out on the, um, the web. If you go to our website and look at our webpage, I have a 45-minute dissertation on how to build that little piece of foam thing. I don't know where the camera is.

• 38:33Danny Jones?

  And what is this foam thing?

• 38:34Speaker 03

  This is a thruster.

• 38:36Danny Jones?

  That is a thruster.

• 38:36Speaker 03

  If you build this, if you spend the dollar 50 it takes to build this and the couple of hours, and it, by the way, the video is free. If you build this and you hang it from a string, you know, eight or 10 feet of string from your ceiling, and you do it the way we say to do it, this, you will be rewarded with this pulling itself through space. This hanging on its string, obviously. You know, it can't fly, it can't lift itself off. It only makes about a tenth of a millinewton, but that's enough to see it move. And we have videos of, of stuff like that. So we thought we'd bring you one so you could see it.

• 39:13Danny Jones?

  That's incredible.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  That is a warp-drive thruster. I know he hates it when I call it warp-drive, but I love the term. So any chance I get to, to call things warp-drive, I do. Um, so that's a, that's a, that's, that's a cutaway of one of our thrusters. And notice it has um, black RTV all around the outside because air is the enemy. So you have to get, you have to seal as much air out of the system as possible.

• 39:35Danny Jones?

  So why does it have to look like this? Why does it have to be this box with all these little grooves cut into the center of it?

• 39:41Speaker 03

  Because the, the basic theory is that you have very small area on the, on the tips of the grooves.

• 39:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 39:48Speaker 03

  And very large area on the, um, on the foil, on the, on the, on the back of that.

• 39:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 39:53Speaker 03

  And the large area has a greater electrostatic pressure pushing against it than the very small area of the tips of the fins. So it's a choice. Who's going to win? I push a million pounds against zero area, or I push one pound against 10 inches of area?

• 40:11Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  It doesn't matter how much you push on the little bitty guys. The area is virtually zero, so the force is almost nothing. So the force going backwards is almost nothing, whereas the force going forwards is more than nothing.

• 40:25Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 40:25Speaker 03

  The force wins. The large area versus the electrostatic pressure wins. There's, there's a few more subtleties to it than that, but that's basically how it works.

• 40:35Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 40:35Speaker 03

  It's electrostatic pressure times area.

• 40:37Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  Or electrostatic force times area, which is electrostatic pressure. So, um.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  Can you go ahead? Yep, that's a pretty good explanation.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  Does she want to?

• 40:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, that's, that's basically what it is.

• 40:46Danny Jones?

  So, so hypothetically, if you guys could scale this thing up, you know, times, times 10,000, what would the vehicles look like that we would travel to Mars in?

• 40:57Speaker 03

  Anything you want them to look like. We don't need to be on the outsides of the spaceships. These can be sealed boxes in the middle of your ship. These could be on catamarans. These could be, um, let's say you build a ship that looks like, well, because, um, I shamelessly love Star Trek. No one's going to believe this, but this is the first warp-drive spaceship in the history of history. You think, well, this is a little model from the 70s of Star Trek, okay?

• 41:26Speaker 03

  One of the guys on our team is a master model builder, by the way. But we have, we put a tiny warp drive cell in here. Now, this whole thing only made two and a half millinewtons of thrust, but it was inside of a ship. And when you have an engine in a ship, that's defining it as a ship under power. So this, although it didn't fly around the room or fly across space, was the first warp drive ship ever in the history of history. But putting that aside, because I'm probably the only guy that thinks that's cool. This is a, this is a box. Inside of a box, you put your people, some area, you put area for people and, you know, sandwiches and stuff. And then you put your engine anywhere else you need to, to fill up the rest of the volume.

• 42:11Speaker 03

  Sadly, we are far more like a dirigible than we are like an airplane. Our engines are not very compact. They're large area devices. So you'll probably have very large surface areas, but we're flying through space, so who cares? It'd be like a solar sail almost. We had a large surface area because we're a surface area, we're a surface area phenomenon, really. You can stack our stuff up, or you can go big surface areas. If you have enough square meters of material at a high enough potential, then you have enough propulsion to go anywhere you want. Because you never have to turn the engines off. So you're constantly accelerating to go there.

• 42:55Speaker 03

  So your ship probably won't look as cool as this. It might look like a pressurized sphere with a great big propulsion system out in front of it that pulls it along.

• 43:07Danny Jones?

  A great big panel or something?

• 43:09Speaker 03

  Sure, like a solar sail. We don't need the sun. And we don't need this, we don't need the photons coming from the sun to do the job.

• 43:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  To do the job. But we are going to need something that you can put people inside of, something that you can put the hardware of the propulsion system in and attach the two with something. Cables, ropes, nacelles, something. Yeah. So it can be any shape, size, sex or color you want it to be.

• 43:33Speaker 04

  Wow, that's one manifestation. If we want to use area to maximize, or we could use volume. So you can imagine like a Borg cube.

• 43:42Danny Jones?

  Like a what?

• 43:43Speaker 04

  A Borg, Star Trek Borg cube. You know, you can use volume to put the thrust in too. It doesn't have to be area. It can be volume also. It's just user's choice.

• 43:53Speaker 03

  So you could have a great big square in space or a great big sphere.

• 43:56Danny Jones?

  Like a big box or a sphere or something like that?

• 43:58Speaker 03

  It doesn't matter.

• 43:59Danny Jones?

  And you would put inside of that a bunch of these?

• 44:01Speaker 03

  Inside that, you would put a

• 44:02Danny Jones?

  Layers of it?

• 44:03Speaker 03

  Again, this is, the stuff we're playing around with here.

• 44:05Speaker 04

  There you go, you found it, the Borg cube.

• 44:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, this is all from five to seven years ago, our stuff here. We have greatly simplified this. We now have, we now have propulsion cells that can lift their own weight. We are over unity. So if the, if the propulsion cell, the material that the cell is made of weighs a pound, we can make 1.8 pounds. So we can make more thrust than the thing takes to wait to lift its own body weight. So whatever's left over after one, that's what lifts the spaceship.

• 44:39Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  And we're over unity. We've been over unity for a while. We've been, we've been off chasing other, other nightmares.

• 44:46Danny Jones?

  That seems like a big deal.

• 44:47Speaker 03

  It is a big deal.

• 44:48Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 44:49Speaker 03

  But there are other big deals in order to, in order to have your own little space drive company, you have to achieve all the other things that we know nothing about. Like becoming a company, becoming a brand, becoming something that someone believes. Okay, you almost believe us, but you'd be amazed how many people don't.

• 45:09Danny Jones?

  I believe you.

• 45:10Speaker 03

  Okay?

• 45:10Danny Jones?

  You know.

• 45:11Speaker 03

  It doesn't matter how many times we've invited people in, showed them the magic, showed them the hardware, showed them the physics, put the hardware in their hands. They just walk away shaking their heads going, why did we waste our day here? Let's go get pizza. It, it, every time.

• 45:27Danny Jones?

  That's, that's incredible.

• 45:28Speaker 04

  It's not every time. We have, we have people that are interested. We have people that are investors. We are, we have turned a corner now. But, you know, it took, it took a while, longer than you think, but, you know, everyone, what's interesting about this field is that everyone has a different belief. And what that means is a different threshold for belief. You know, is it what you see? Is it what you touch? Is it a rotator? Is it a pendulum? Is it a spinner? Does it have to work in air? Does it have to work in vacuum? Does it have to work, does it have to be stackable? Does it have to be, you know? And every single person has a different requirement level. It's very odd. I mean, I don't know if you've ever asked that of the Wright brothers, does your plane fly? They would look and they would say, oh yeah, the plane flies. Imagine if they said, well, does it go underwater? Does it go into space?

• 46:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 46:13Speaker 04

  Does it turn blue? You know, it's very odd, the questions and the requirements set that we've been tasked to deal with. And every one of them is a fair question to ask. It just takes a long time to answer all of them. So we have to limit, you know, our customer base, our investor base to stay focused, because it's just the two of us. We've got to stay focused.

• 46:34Danny Jones?

  Now, aren't there, aren't there laws, isn't there some sort of like US government patent law? Where like if you, if somebody comes up with some crazy patent or discovery or whatever, like it automatically defaults to the US government? Or something like that? I remember Jesse Michaels telling me something like this.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  Exactly. The US government reserves the right to ruin your life.

• 46:55Speaker 03

  It goes back to the theory behind patents. Patents are not for the guys inventing stuff. They're for country building. They're for nation building.

• 47:03Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 47:03Speaker 03

  So the nation that's going to give you the so-called protection, they reserve the right to take it from you. We believe

• 47:12Danny Jones?

  For national security.

• 47:13Speaker 03

  There's no way to know for sure, but our patent disappeared inside the patent office for three and a half years, our original one. And we were told eventually by the patent office that it had, it got hung up in DOD review. Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but that's what they told us. Then it got hung up in NASA review. And the only reason we know any of this is because there just aren't that many people on this planet who know how to read our patent and actually say, no, no, this is ridiculous because this is why it's ridiculous.

• 47:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 47:45Speaker 03

  Most of them work on our team. The few that don't work on our team, they were contacted by the patent office so that they'd have somebody, external reviewers, review our patents. And they said, we can't because we work on the team that invented it. So after a while, the patent office gave up and they issued us our patent, which is wonderful. But we're running into the same problem now that we have our second patent out there. The patent office came back and they said, this is not possible. You are violating the laws of conservation and momentum. And we've spent a few years explaining patiently to the patent office, the laws of conservation and momentum and all the stuff that Dr. Charles was talking about.

• 48:30Speaker 03

  And, you know, hopefully they'll, they'll let our patent go the second time. We've already passed all the hurdles. They just, we got hung up on a, on a little technical glitch because they said, no, this is impossible, so we're not going to issue patent on it.

• 48:45Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 48:46Speaker 03

  Okay, so we get affidavits and we showed them people that have reproduced our work and we showed them videos of people that reproduced our work and, and a full description of the physics down to levels that they don't even understand. And we hope we've satisfied them. And now it's a play, it's a waiting game. Now, that's the reality of the US patent system.

• 49:09Danny Jones?

  Now, what about the whole peer review process? Have you guys initiated anything like that?

• 49:14Speaker 04

  We're going to.

• 49:15Speaker 03

  I won't let him.

• 49:17Speaker 04

  We're going to, because, you know, this is fundamental physics, so we can't really patent that anyway. But the fundamental physics will be peer reviewed. And really, they, we do need a nice description of, of the thrust itself, experimental. So people can, can do it how Drew drew it up. But, you know, have it written down on a nice paper so that scientists can verify it.

• 49:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 49:40Speaker 04

  And that's all.

• 49:40Speaker 03

  But peer review is designed to shut down the flow of information. It's not designed to

• 49:46Speaker 04

  It'll help the scientists.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  So

• 49:48Danny Jones?

  Well, yeah, I'm familiar with the origins of it.

• 49:50Speaker 03

  Again, it's like the example that Charles used of the Wright brothers. They flew. Nobody peer reviewed their work and they had a lot of it. They actually invented the wind tunnel.

• 50:00Speaker 04

  We're not letting our work

• 50:01Speaker 03

  Nobody peer reviewed their work.

• 50:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, we're not holding up our work on a peer review.

• 50:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 50:05Speaker 04

  We're not holding it up.

• 50:06Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 50:07Speaker 04

  It's a, you know, it's a parallel thing, just for science. And that's it. It's not, it's not in line with what we're doing, because we're not waiting on it. I'm not waiting for the scientific community. It'll take them 20, 30 years to buy this. And I'm

• 50:19Danny Jones?

  20 to 30 years.

• 50:20Speaker 04

  At least.

• 50:20Speaker 03

  At least.

• 50:21Speaker 04

  And I'm okay with that. I understand how the process works.

• 50:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Speaker 04

  But what I think, what will happen, what I'm encouraged with is, as Drew made videos of how to build these things, and you can see they're not very complicated. You know, there's a bunch of us working on them. What's exciting.

• 50:38Speaker 03

  Cause I'm gonna explain.

• 50:39Speaker 04

  Oh, you want to explain all this, but so this, you want to explain this guy too. But what's exciting is that if he makes videos, how to make them, this will go the way the lifters. If you're familiar with those. The lifters are something that came around in the eighties or nineties where you take a aluminum foil. You form it in the shape of a triangle.

• 50:55Danny Jones?

  Oh, yes.

• 50:56Speaker 04

  Triangle with the lines on top.

• 50:58Danny Jones?

  I have seen those.

• 50:59Speaker 04

  And people thought they were fake and all that stuff until hobby started to make them. And their teachers would make them and students would make them and then they would work. And they were, they were cool. They're cool, you know, lifting devices lift up a couple of feet off a table. Outstanding little Corona thruster devices, ion wind thrusters.

• 51:15Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm. Ion wind.

• 51:17Speaker 04

  Ion wind. So that, yeah. So basically you're just taking the, the gas win and you're accelerating it one way and moving the device the other way. It's a conservation momentum of gas movement.

• 51:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 51:26Speaker 04

  Not, not what we're doing, but certainly something people did not believe in until they actually started building them. So this will probably fall along the same path. People start building them in the garage. I've had people come up to us and tell us they've done that. And, you know, just that would, that would be the way that this makes it to the mainstream. The scientific peer review process will take a couple of decades.

• 51:48Danny Jones?

  You guys are doing everything you can. I mean, obviously you're, you're explaining this soup to nuts on podcasts publicly, trying to make this more publicly available for people and let it get out there.

• 51:58Speaker 03

  We want people to follow our patent, follow our, our, our videos, you know, come, come talk to us. The only, the only thing that's stopping anybody from, from learning more and learning really deep is our N D R, non-disclosure agreement. You know, nobody comes in our shop that could walk away with the IP, you know? And that's the only thing we ask, but once you, once you pass the minimums of, of, you know, credibility, you come in and, and we'll talk, we'll show you everything we know how to do because you might have a great, the next great idea.

• 52:33Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 52:34Speaker 03

  And I wanted to mention this how Charles and I are the, are the core of the team, but we have a big team. There's probably eight or 10 people on our team and some people float in and float out over the years.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  It's all about the team because nobody can do everything and I've, I've tried. I can't do electronics. I just, I'm terrible at it and I don't do computers because I hate them. Charles is not the greatest with mechanical tooling. So, but nobody can do what he does. Nobody can go up to that whiteboard and fill it full of squiggles and actually make it make sense. Okay. Very few people can do what I do, which is, for example, go to the next one.

• 53:14Speaker 03

  This is, this is just us playing around in our shop one day. I built that thing, everything you see there.

• 53:19Danny Jones?

  What is that thing?

• 53:20Speaker 03

  That's a vacuum chamber. That's our, that's one of our small vacuum chambers.

• 53:23Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 53:24Speaker 03

  And, you know, there's nothing special about a vacuum chamber, except that we can hit, you know, 10 to the minus six tor, which is hard vacuum. You put a lifter.

• 53:32Danny Jones?

  What does that mean? 10 to the minus six tor?

• 53:34Speaker 03

  There are 760 millimeters of mercury in an atmosphere. That's what you would call it standard atmosphere. If you, if you had a board on tube upside down, it would pull a vacuum at 760 millimeters high. That's the pressure of a standard atmosphere. If you pulled all the air out of that thing down to one millimeter, that means that you'd have only one millimeter of atmospheric pressure in that thing.

• 53:56Danny Jones?

  Got it.

• 53:56Speaker 03

  The pressure on Mars is about seven millimeters of mercury ish, between five and seven. So if you, if I want, if I was outside on Mars, the atmospheric pressure would be about five tor, seven tor, something like that.

• 54:07Speaker 04

  About a hundred times less.

• 54:08Speaker 03

  About a hundred times less.

• 54:09Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 54:09Speaker 03

  If I was on Venus, the atmospheric pressure would be 700 atmospheres. It's about a hundred times the atmospheric pressure of the earth.

• 54:19Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 54:19Speaker 03

  But when you get into vacuum, you get down around one tor, a tenth of a tor, now you're into the milla tor, a thousandth of a tor. Okay. The International Space Station buzzing around up at whatever it is, 250 miles or so. It's at about 10 to the minus eight tours. The atmospheric pressure outside the station is about 10 to the minus eight tours.

• 54:42Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 54:42Speaker 03

  The atmospheric pressure in the surface of the moon is about 10 to the minus nine. Atmospheric pressure on the backside of the moon is about 10 to the minus 10. These numbers don't mean anything and it doesn't matter. We can get down to space. We can pump down, we can put our test articles inside that box, inside that tube, pump down to about the pressure of space. We were talking about lifters. Lifters are fun things. Everybody says, oh, you're just making ion wind. Well, you put ion wind, you put a lifter in a vacuum, it stops making wind because there's no air to make the wind with. So lifters don't work in a vacuum. Our system loves vacuum because we don't have the air, which tends to short out the high voltage plates.

• 55:24Speaker 03

  Vacuum is very friendly to our system. The harder the vacuum, the higher the voltage we can run, the higher the field we can run.

• 55:32Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 55:32Speaker 03

  The more thrust we can make with the same hardware. So we, we grew up loving vacuum because everybody said, oh, they're just ion winds. It's just a lifter. So we said, okay, what's, what's it going to take to prove it to you? And the first hurdle was, I put it in a vacuum chamber and it'll fail. We put it in a vacuum chamber, it worked better. Then the next hurdle was, well, now what do you want to see? Oh, now we want to see it spin around. So we built spinners in the vacuum chamber. Then the next hurdle was, oh, we want to see it float. Okay. That's a tricky one. That's a real tricky one. So we're, that's, that's when we stopped listening to people saying, I want, and we started focusing on what we needed.

• 56:12Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:13Speaker 03

  So that's an example of a homegrown vacuum chamber. The next one. And of course, Dr. Charles is there to supervise.

• 56:21Danny Jones?

  Why is it so difficult to make it float?

• 56:25Speaker 03

  Well, let's say we have.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Well, we, we have the 1.7 earth unity. So we can make something that can lift its, its weight and a little bit more.

• 56:33Danny Jones?

  And a little bit more.

• 56:34Speaker 04

  But we, that mass is based on the actual thruster itself. It doesn't count for the mass of the framing, the power supply, the tape, all of the, all the non-components that are doing nothing except holding it together and structure and all that. So it's like a car saying, I have enough horsepower to move my car or move the engine, but not the car.

• 56:53Danny Jones?

  Right. Not the, not the tires.

• 56:56Speaker 04

  Steering wheel or the.

• 56:57Speaker 03

  You've got to start somewhere. So, so where we started with was the fact that we're not zero. Okay. So that, that was the unicorn. We, we birthed the unicorn. Now people want the unicorn to get up on the table and dance. And then they want the unicorn to be wearing a certain color dress and dance. So it's, everybody always wants the next, next cool thing because, you know, eventually everybody wants to see the Mattel hoverboard.

• 57:23Danny Jones?

  Is this a spinner?

• 57:24Speaker 03

  That's a spinner.

• 57:24Danny Jones?

  Wow. Look at that.

• 57:26Speaker 03

  And that rotated around.

• 57:29Danny Jones?

  In a vacuum?

• 57:30Speaker 03

  In a vacuum with, that's about five years ago, maybe. What year is that?

• 57:35Speaker 04

  It's been a while.

• 57:36Speaker 03

  2020, six years ago.

• 57:37Danny Jones?

  How fast did it spin?

• 57:38Speaker 03

  Very slowly.

• 57:39Speaker 04

  It's not fast.

• 57:39Speaker 03

  Very, very slowly. It took hours for it to go to rotate.

• 57:43Danny Jones?

  One rotation was hours?

• 57:44Speaker 03

  Because the string has torsion in it.

• 57:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 57:48Speaker 03

  That thing's just held up with a string.

• 57:49Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 57:50Speaker 03

  And the string has torsion. So you're working against the torsion in the string. Well, that whole thing only made about two millinewtons of thrust. Two millinewtons of thrust on an 18 inch arm ain't that big.

• 58:03Speaker 04

  This sucker was heavy too.

• 58:04Speaker 03

  And it, the whole thing weighed about two kilos, maybe two and a half kilos. And it was, oh, actually that one's probably on a pin. Yeah, that one doesn't have a string. That one has a, a, a, the thing at the bottom is just a plate. And there's a probably a pin coming up from the bottom. So that whole thing is on a pin and jewel pivot. But either way, it, it, it, that's why we got rid of the torsion string and went to the pin and jewel. That's the only reason why that thing spun. So as soon as we did this, they went to, oh, now we need to see it float. And, you know, we've been talking with people for years and it always goes to the next level of, oh, now I want to see it do that. Now I want to see it do that. Now I want to see it do that.

• 58:49Speaker 03

  Well, this is all self-funded back in the day and, you know, this is after we put in a full work week, we're, we're doing this.

• 58:56Danny Jones?

  As I keep getting older, I'm starting to realize that life insurance is one of those things I should stop putting off. Nobody wants to think about worst case scenarios, but when your family relies on you, having this kind of coverage is the most responsible thing to do. And that's where Ethos makes the process stupid simple. Through Ethos, you can get a life insurance quote in seconds, apply in minutes and get potentially same day coverage, all 100% online. There's no medical exam. You just answer a few simple health questions online and you can get up to $3 million in coverage. And some policies are now as low as $30 a month. Ethos helps provide financial security by connecting you with coverage through its network of trusted carriers. It's one of those things that only takes minutes now, but can make a massive difference down the road.

• 59:36Danny Jones?

  Take 10 minutes to get covered today with life insurance through Ethos. Get your free quote at ethos.com/danny. That's spelled E T H O S dot com slash D A N N Y. Application times may vary and rates may vary. Is there one limit, limiting factor that's holding you guys back that you could basically say, like if, if, say it was money? Like if you had a limited amount of money, would you guys be able to figure out how to make this thing float? Or is there, like, what, what is the, like, the biggest common denominator that you think is?

• 1:00:08Speaker 04

  It's the usual thing. It's just money and time.

• 1:00:11Danny Jones?

  Money and time.

• 1:00:11Speaker 04

  Really is. I mean, you know, I'll be leaving my NASA job soon to work this full time, but it's always been a part-time thing. He just left his job full-time to do this full-time for the first time in 20 years. So time is going to be on our side. Uh, then money, so we can get other people to help us. That's what this.

• 1:00:29Danny Jones?

  And what is the most like, like lowest hanging fruit as far as like a practical application for this thing?

• 1:00:36Speaker 04

  I, I would say.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  This right here.

• 1:00:38Speaker 04

  Is what he's showing you there are the small sat.

• 1:00:41Speaker 03

  This is an example of a cube sat. Again, this is a cart, I don't, I can't see what's looking at me. This, this is a, an example.

• 1:00:47Danny Jones?

  Looking at that camera.

• 1:00:48Speaker 03

  Oh, okay. This is an example of a cube sat. And for those who don't know what a cube sat is, a cube sat is a four inch by four inch by four inch cube. And you stack them up, U1, U2, U3. This was a U3. So people have launched these for about 15 years now. They put these up on, in great big boxes and they shoot them out one at a time. And sometimes they have little tiny propulsion systems in them and sometimes they don't. And they're, and they're little tiny, tiny satellites. Again, this is a cartoon. This, this is not a real one.

• 1:01:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:01:17Speaker 03

  Okay. Our dream is to build something like this or get with a vendor who builds things like this and.

• 1:01:23Danny Jones?

  Is it roughly the same size?

• 1:01:25Speaker 03

  It would be the exact same size. This is an exact copy of a, of a U3 cube sat. And then in this case, we were, we propose to have this be the propulsion module. And the propulsion module would look something like this. Our propulsion mechanism would be inside of it. You know, this is a cartoon again. There's nothing real here.

• 1:01:44Danny Jones?

  I see.

• 1:01:45Speaker 03

  And then this would mount directly to the other half of the spacecraft. So that the things like cameras and solar cells and gyros and all the things that make up little tiny spacecraft.

• 1:02:01Speaker 03

  Get a propulsion module. In this propulsion module would be enough propulsion to send this thing to Mars. And it would probably get there in a couple of weeks.

• 1:02:12Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 1:02:13Speaker 03

  I wouldn't say we'd have enough to get there in three and a half days, which is in the future.

• 1:02:19Danny Jones?

  The propulsion module is about 50% of the entire.

• 1:02:23Speaker 03

  In this case, it would be, in this case, we actually set it up to be 50% because again, this is a cartoon, you know, it may be that this propulsion module could handle something the size of this table. But now you're talking about much slower getting to Mars, you know, certainly, we could climb out of the earth's atmosphere. You climb out of, we could, I'm sorry, we climb out of the earth's orbital gravity. So we could, once we get into space, you know, somebody's gonna have to give us a ride to space. Because these things don't lift their own body weight yet. So somebody's give us a ride, we're in orbit, we're in low earth orbit, and we turn on our little thrusters. And normally, thrusters are turned on, and in a couple of months, little toy satellites make it up to whatever orbit they're supposed to be at, then they run out of fuel.

• 1:03:05Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:03:06Speaker 03

  That's just the, that's the, that's, and that's the best you get. Those are little ion engines. I mean, every one of the, the, pretty much every satellite out there does that. They start out in a real low orbit, and then they slowly work their way up to a higher orbit, and then they run out of fuel.

• 1:03:22Danny Jones?

  This will never run out of fuel.

• 1:03:23Speaker 03

  This will never run out of fuel. So you never have to turn off the thruster. So it constantly is accelerating. You're constantly gaining altitude, constantly. At some point, about 12 or 13 hours later, you've left the earth's gravity, and you can go to the moon if you want to. But then you better start decelerating pretty quick, because you're gonna hit the moon at, you know, 200,000 miles an hour. So if you want to go to the moon, this, this, this little toy could take you to the moon. This little toy could take you to Mars, presuming all the other problems are solved, okay? We don't have a deep sky network to communicate with our little toys. You know, we, we, we don't know how to fly to Mars. You know, we're just, we're just guys getting into this.

• 1:04:04Danny Jones?

  Right now, today, if you guys had a, if you could get a ride into low earth orbit, that thing would.

• 1:04:10Speaker 03

  We would build a real one. And our propulsion system, which is very much advanced from what you see on the screen.

• 1:04:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:19Speaker 03

  Would have more than enough capability to do all the crazy things we say it can do. We don't have to invent anything else. We have it. We just don't have the millions of dollars that it takes to get from cartoon to real life. Not that we're not, we're working on it. We work on it every day.

• 1:04:38Danny Jones?

  That sounds incredible.

• 1:04:39Speaker 03

  12 hours a day. But right now, we're, we're, we're trapped by the reality of that we're, you know, I don't know about him, but I'm a poor boy. I don't have, I don't have the money to just.

• 1:04:51Danny Jones?

  So he's got a pizza.

• 1:04:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. We have a joke running. It's the only place on earth with pizza and warp drive. I'm sorry. I just thought, put that in there, because it was funny.

• 1:05:02Danny Jones?

  Now, like, have you guys talked to, like, any high level, like, space executives, or like, like rocket people, like, maybe, like, for example, Elon, maybe not at his level, but like, somebody about this, and like, gotten any kind of feedback from them? Positive or negative?

• 1:05:17Speaker 04

  We have, you know, we, we are in contact.

• 1:05:20Speaker 03

  The well has been poisoned.

• 1:05:21Speaker 04

  You know.

• 1:05:22Danny Jones?

  The well has been poisoned. So you're getting a lot, there's a lot of stigma attached to it, or just a lot of skepticism?

• 1:05:28Speaker 04

  I think the, you know, like I was saying, there's a lot of levels to climb. There's a lot of hurdles to climb, and there's a lot of minimum requirements. And there's different, you know, there's different use cases that we have to show. So there's different thrusters that we have to show, different things that it needs to do. It's not a high hurdle. But at the end of that game, you're gonna talk to the big wig, and then they'll decide our fate after that. We're not waiting for that. We're just waiting, we're just, you know, we're working with potential customers for this little guy. They may have thousands of these, hundreds of these. So that is a good, it's a better ease in, as you're starting a company, to get a, get a customer right away, which we already have, we think, we're

• 1:06:10Speaker 04

  trying, and then go from there. Instead of, you know, the big dogs, they'll hear about us later.

• 1:06:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:16Speaker 04

  I'm sure.

• 1:06:17Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 1:06:17Speaker 04

  I'm not worried about it. But if we get a small customer that work with us to get a space rated, space grade, all of that, and pay for all the, the heavy lifting, which is what some have offered to do, that's a much quicker route. And I think we're gonna do that. And we're gonna do that in short order.

• 1:06:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah, once you get somebody big on, on there, everyone will try to jump on the bandwagon. But the early adopters are probably the hardest ones to get going. So, so, so what would be the, like, to get this guy into space, I'm sure, like, just civilians can't launch shit into space, right?

• 1:06:51Speaker 03

  You can, you can buy a ride.

• 1:06:53Speaker 04

  You sure can.

• 1:06:53Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:06:54Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. You could, this little bad boy here.

• 1:06:56Danny Jones?

  So like, the way I fly a DJI drone around, I could fly one of these in space?

• 1:07:01Speaker 03

  Not quite.

• 1:07:02Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:07:03Speaker 03

  What you can do is.

• 1:07:04Danny Jones?

  I mean, regulatory wise.

• 1:07:06Speaker 03

  You can, you can buy a ride, and, and they take care of all the regulatory. You could build one of these, okay? Excluding the propulsion system, the satellite alone will cost you about 300,000 for the pieces, parts. And, but, but the nice thing is, you can go out to, whatever it is, littelsatellitecorp.com, and buy a chassis, and a gyro, and a, and a star tracking, you can buy all the pieces of the puzzle, and you can even get people to assemble them for you. And then you would integrate in whatever your special thing is. Let's say you wanted to do a, a thing that took pictures, or, some guy sent a cellphone up.

• 1:07:43Danny Jones?

  I saw that.

• 1:07:44Speaker 03

  It takes a picture of us.

• 1:07:46Danny Jones?

  It just takes a picture of a selfie or something?

• 1:07:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. It takes, yeah. So you put your selfie on there, and it takes a picture of you in space with the stars. It's beautiful, wonderful.

• 1:07:52Speaker 04

  My son loves that channel.

• 1:07:53Danny Jones?

  What was that called, like?

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  Mark Rober.

• 1:07:55Danny Jones?

  Mark Rober, that's what he was.

• 1:07:56Speaker 03

  And that's wonderful. But the, the satellite, 300,000, roughly. If it's about this big, if it's bigger, it goes up fast.

• 1:08:04Danny Jones?

  You guys could build them, and then you guys could, like, rent them out?

• 1:08:08Speaker 03

  Yes. Yes, we could. To get this into space is anywhere from 300,000 to a million dollars, depending on your ride, and, and, and what you're, what you want to, how you, how long you want to wait, and how far down the list you want to go. And, and there are ways to do that cheaper, and there are ways to do that more expensively. But it's somewhere around 300,000. So between the cost of the, the build, and the cost of the ride, and the cost of the mission, because you've got to have communications, you've got to have somebody actually receiving your telemetry, there, there, there are people who offer that service now. That stuff was not even available before. It's a million dollars a pop. And

• 1:08:51Speaker 03

  generally, what you learn in, in, in the aerospace world, and the space world, is you need two of everything. Because the first one's usually gonna fail. So you gotta build two of everything. So now you got 2 million dollars sitting on the shelf. And that's great. That's what you're gonna launch. But then you gotta test everything. So you gotta build two more of them. We call them engineering demonstration units. So you have to have your two engineering demonstration units. And they don't have to launch, but they have to get built. So there's another couple hundred thousand dollars. And then you have to run your testing operation. These tests are pretty exotic. Shake, rattle, and roll.

• 1:09:29Speaker 04

  T-Bag, EMI. There's a gauntlet of tests.

• 1:09:32Speaker 03

  There's an enormous gauntlet of tests that you have to pass before you are not a hazard to all the other people who've spent their hard earned money to put their satellites into space. So the, the, you can launch your own satellites. You can. You gotta buy a ride, you gotta do all the minimums, you gotta play by the game, because you can't buy your own rocket. And if you can, that's even better. But nobody can buy their own rockets. So that's the world we're in, is we're looking to team up with someone who wants to test out the first propulsion system that never has to be turned off, on a satellite they're willing to risk it on.

• 1:10:14Danny Jones?

  It's, it's kind of crazy to me that, you know, there haven't been any big aerospace companies that have approached you guys and tried to contract you, like, like, or even something like DARPA, or something crazy?

• 1:10:25Speaker 04

  There have been, and we're, we're gonna talk to them. So I, you know, I don't want to give out who all these people are. But that, that process is ongoing. It started.

• 1:10:33Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:34Speaker 04

  We're excited about it. It's not just, you know, we're not, you know.

• 1:10:37Danny Jones?

  What do you guys think, what, what, what do you guys think of when you see, you know, and you hear of all these reports of, like, these crazy things flying around in the atmosphere, like, the pilots talk about and all that stuff? Was that kind of like what inspired this stuff? Or, like, when you think of all the work and the time you've put into creating this thing, and you see stuff like that, what do you think?

• 1:11:02Speaker 04

  Damn it.

• 1:11:03Danny Jones?

  Do you think it's all fake?

• 1:11:04Speaker 04

  Or do you think? Oh, I don't, I don't know. Maybe it uses this force, maybe it doesn't. I don't really know what it is.

• 1:11:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:11Speaker 03

  I don't know what it is either.

• 1:11:12Danny Jones?

  Do you think that there are human beings on this earth? Who have figured out something like this? On super steroids, times a million? That you can put a human in and fucking zip around the sky?

• 1:11:25Speaker 04

  I honestly don't know.

• 1:11:26Danny Jones?

  Is that possible? Or is it impossible? Like I'm saying, like hypothetical, yeah, you got a gun to your head. Yes, yes, they figured it out. No, they haven't figured it out.

• 1:11:34Speaker 03

  I believe it's possible they have.

• 1:11:36Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:36Speaker 03

  I just don't see any evidence of it.

• 1:11:38Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:11:39Speaker 04

  I mean, it took us a long time, even as simple as this theoretically is just to get there. And to, and to develop this and to continue to develop it. I mean, the amount of work and hours to get to this is ridiculous.

• 1:11:52Speaker 03

  Propulsion's not the only thing you need to be able to do what we see on these. I guess you're referring to the Tic Tac videos, stuff like that.

• 1:12:00Danny Jones?

  Tic Tac videos, things like that.

• 1:12:03Speaker 03

  And I promised him I wouldn't mention it, but I'm going to anyhow. I'm part of a, I'm part of a group of, I call them crazy people because we are all crazy. It's Alternate Propulsion Engineering Conference.

• 1:12:13Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:12:14Speaker 03

  And.

• 1:12:15Danny Jones?

  There's a lot of smart, smart guys that are part of that conference.

• 1:12:17Speaker 03

  Brilliant people in APEC. And there are crazy people in APEC.

• 1:12:21Danny Jones?

  And just like every group.

• 1:12:22Speaker 03

  There's no, and there's no reason you can't be brilliant and crazy, which is how they define me somehow. But there are groups, there are guys in that group and gals too, because very brilliant. Some of the people in that group are female and they're very brilliant. Their dream is to pick one of the things that keeps you from being able to do the crazy things you see on the videos. One of them is, I want to go to the left at 500 Gs or 1,000 Gs. You know, or whatever, sea level to 80,000 feet in a second.

• 1:12:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:57Speaker 03

  Okay, that's 10,000 Gs. You know, 10,000 Gs are due to your body. You would be a smear on the back bulkhead. Okay, 10,000 Gs, you could put, you could, you could put anything, a piece of metal. And subject it to 10,000 Gs and it'll crush it. So obviously, if, if the videos are real and you're doing 10,000 Gs. Somebody, somewhere, somehow has figured out a way to reduce your static inertia. Such that for those moments that you're doing the high G forces, you're not subject to the inertial loads.

• 1:13:35Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:13:35Speaker 03

  One of the guys on the team has a machine that makes my vacuum system look silly. And he's reporting that he has lowered the inertial. So he, he has, you know, he can move his test article and it doesn't, it isn't subjected to inertia. So he has reduced its inertial component by a small fraction. In the, with, with, with whatever magic he's working on, I truly don't understand it. But he's working on it. And someday he might get to where he can take 100% of the inertia out along one plane or two planes. Or three planes.

• 1:14:17Speaker 03

  So then he could accelerate his test article. At 100 Gs and the test article wouldn't feel the inertia. But that doesn't mean he has the, he has any, let's say he does it. He doesn't have any way to make his test article move. He would want somebody that has a propulsion system like I have. I don't have any way to keep my people from being smeared on the back bulkhead.

• 1:14:41Danny Jones?

  This is the crazy thing about science too, is because most science in the academic sense is, is very stove piped. Meaning like there's not, it's not very interdisciplinary. You know, people work in single lanes and they only talk to people in their own lane. They don't communicate outside.

• 1:14:59Speaker 03

  That's why we're part of the, I call them crazy people, but they're brilliant.

• 1:15:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:03Speaker 03

  And we get together once or twice a month. And it's open forum, anybody can talk, anybody can present, anybody can ask questions. And if you have some answers, anybody's, anybody's welcome to give answers. And we kick all kinds of ideas around and stuff. But it's basically focused on propulsion. That's what this conference is, is focused on, which is good for me because that's all I care about.

• 1:15:25Danny Jones?

  So when you say 10,000 Gs, like for example, that the way that like Dave Fravor describes that, the way that Tic Tac move. You're saying for it to make these hard turns and to go from sea level to whatever it was, 80,000 feet in a second. That would be that, roughly that kind of Gs. So a human being wouldn't survive that if it was in traditional spacetime. But would the materials that we know of even survive that? Like we don't have any materials on earth.

• 1:15:53Speaker 03

  I don't believe we have anything that could survive those kinds of Gs.

• 1:15:55Danny Jones?

  No types of metal alloys terrestrially that would survive those kinds of Gs.

• 1:16:00Speaker 03

  It took far too much of a stress on the whole.

• 1:16:02Speaker 04

  And I look at those, those observables, the four observables they have. Obviously propulsion's one of them, inertia is another. Going through objects, flying through objects, you know, going through mountains and these things.

• 1:16:16Danny Jones?

  Oh, through mountains.

• 1:16:17Speaker 04

  Underwater without even seeing the, the water, without even experiencing any of that.

• 1:16:25Danny Jones?

  How would you, yeah, how would, what does that mean?

• 1:16:28Speaker 03

  You have to be in a place or a time that the water isn't.

• 1:16:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah, so.

• 1:16:33Speaker 03

  I don't know how they're doing it, but you would have to be where the water isn't.

• 1:16:37Speaker 04

  Quantum mechanical can possibly allow that. You know, everything has, all the atoms in our body and molecules and all that have a certain quantum state. And if you change that quantum state, if you can do it, you can add another perhaps quantum number. If you add another quantum number, you're no longer in the other quantum state that the rest of the universe is in. You might just be able to pass right through it. So there are poly exclusionary principles and quantum mechanics, very, very ad hoc, very, you know, weird theories out there. That people can do experiments on to show that, you know, we know how the poly exclusionary principle works.

• 1:17:17Speaker 04

  If you were able to change the quantum state of something, you could go through these mountains and water, oceans, whatever. I don't think humans, you asked earlier, you know, do we have this where someone's got it in a mountain somewhere and they're doing all this? This is thousands of years ahead of us.

• 1:17:32Danny Jones?

  Who is?

• 1:17:33Speaker 04

  This technology that we're talking about.

• 1:17:35Danny Jones?

  That we're seeing.

• 1:17:36Speaker 04

  Yeah, and this is far ahead of us, like not even, you know, the textbooks would kind of go over this. Like even our force is so awesome, it's going to be a thousand years before it gets strong enough to do these crazy things. What your buddy's doing with the inertia, he's, he's a long way from that. I can't imagine there's one guy, one set of guys that have all of this figured out in some mountain somewhere. You know, that's just kind of like hard to believe because.

• 1:18:00Danny Jones?

  Have you met anybody ever who is more adept or proficient in this field of electrostatics than you are?

• 1:18:11Speaker 04

  I have a lot of colleagues that are in this field. Not a lot of us that work on propulsion, but there's a lot of electrostatics colleagues in mind.

• 1:18:20Danny Jones?

  Right, right. I just think that, you know, coming from someone like you, who is like one of the top people in this, doing this work at like a place like NASA. And you saying that this is, that stuff is thousands of years ahead is crazy. Because I mean, I've heard stories of people who have done research on places like DARPA and talk about the technology that they've been working on. They say that usually they're like 20 years ahead of anything that you see in the public sphere. Or like in the commercial sphere, right? So like a thousand, that's insane.

• 1:18:51Speaker 04

  I mean, that's, that's how I personally feel. You're talking about.

• 1:18:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:55Speaker 04

  Quantum mechanics have been had since the 1920s. There's been no advancement in that poly exclusion principle to go phase through a matter and go through a table without touching it. Physics, you know, it's maybe possible, but you're talking centuries ahead of us from now. And this inertia, these right angle terms and, and you can tell that the ship is not even stressed by any of these things. It's actually colder in some of these videos. So there's a lot more going on in those things than.

• 1:19:22Danny Jones?

  Well, so.

• 1:19:23Speaker 04

  I just don't have the famous.

• 1:19:24Danny Jones?

  My first introduction to all of this stuff was the Bob Lazar story. I know you talked to Bob Lazar with Jesse Michaels.

• 1:19:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:31Danny Jones?

  And he described it in a way that I completely understood it. He, and I don't know like mathematically how it works, but I understand like generally how it works. He was saying that there was this basketball sized reactor. That basically when you turned it on, it was like you couldn't touch it. And the way he described that the alleged crafts that he worked on moved was they sort of like, like the way I would drop something like that.

• 1:19:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:19:59Danny Jones?

  It would move horizontally to the earth or perpendicular to the earth as if it was falling. And he even said that they would fly belly first. So like if it, if it somehow bent gravity or spacetime around it, it could theoretically like fall in whatever direction it goes. Meaning that there's this sort of like bubble around you that's protecting you from inertia. Or whatever, I don't know what word I'm looking for here, but whatever.

• 1:20:27Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 1:20:28Speaker 04

  That, that, that's bending of spacetime.

• 1:20:30Speaker 03

  I'd love to see.

• 1:20:30Speaker 04

  We don't have a quantum theory for that.

• 1:20:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:32Speaker 04

  Either, you know, the bending of spacetime. How would you do it? How would you build that in the lab?

• 1:20:35Danny Jones?

  Right. Element 115.

• 1:20:38Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:20:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, I just don't know how you would do it.

• 1:20:41Speaker 03

  I have my hands full, 100 hours a week.

• 1:20:44Danny Jones?

  Has anyone ever asked him to break it down? Does he even understand how that works? Or is that just too perplexing for him to?

• 1:20:50Speaker 04

  You know, in the eighties, he talked about the gravity waves stuff.

• 1:20:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:53Speaker 04

  Right?

• 1:20:53Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:20:54Speaker 04

  Gravitational waves being created from the element 115 and they would go down those tubes and go into the gravity wave amplifiers.

• 1:21:01Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:01Speaker 04

  On the ship. And at the, at the time, I didn't really believe a lot of that.

• 1:21:05Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:06Speaker 04

  I mean, it just, you know, I just couldn't make sense of it. I was a kid, young and just, that was kind of the, at the time, that was like the hottest topic, gravity waves. Hot topic.

• 1:21:16Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:16Speaker 04

  Richard Feynman, you know, got onto the science community about gravity waves. Can they do work? He wanted to know. There wasn't anyone working on that field, so. So I think, you know, he picked up on the gravity, maybe that's what it was, gravity waves. But more recently, I think he's more open to the possibility of maybe not being gravity waves, that other, something else.

• 1:21:35Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:21:36Speaker 04

  Something else entirely. So, um, so.

• 1:21:40Danny Jones?

  Like more in line with what you guys are doing?

• 1:21:41Speaker 04

  It's possible. It's just another force. It can't do all the fancy things you're talking about bending spacetime or anything else, but it could be a force.

• 1:21:50Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:51Speaker 04

  We haven't explored a lot of, you know, facets of our force. You know, we're brand new with this, like a kid in a candy store. We have a new, a new shiny car, we're going to test it, we're going to take it out for a test drive to check it out, but.

• 1:22:05Speaker 04

  It's possible because the element 115 theoretically is a very high melting point material, higher than anything we have theoretically. You know, we've gotten very close to that. So theoretically has a very high melting point. And that's very advantage, you know, has a very huge advantage.

• 1:22:20Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:22:22Speaker 04

  And I talked about this at APEC a few years back, but you know, my thought was like, that's, that's interesting. And I showed the, the design that Bob Lazar put on his napkin.

• 1:22:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah, sports model or whatever.

• 1:22:33Speaker 04

  Of the sports model internals, which he didn't show before. I'd never seen it. And I looked at that and I said, that looks like a, that looks like a transmitter. I showed my wife who's at NASA and she's in the EMI group and she's like, yeah, it does look like a transmitter. I said, maybe that's an electromagnetic transmitter. So as you know, Bob drew the wave guides, which are basically ways to trap electromagnetic light, you know, whatever frequency that would be, probably gigahertz or terahertz or something like that.

• 1:23:01Speaker 04

  And like, this is a, this is an electromagnetic source, possibly. And then he had go into the gravity wave amplifiers. Now, that doesn't mean anything 20 years ago, but in today's light, well, the gravity wave amplifier, the spaceship would always move in the direction of the amplifier. Just like our propulsion always moves in the direction of the, of the thrust, like our forces are in the direction of the thrust. It's like it was pushing, they're pulling on it, if you will.

• 1:23:27Danny Jones?

  Not in the opposite direction.

• 1:23:28Speaker 04

  Not in the opposite direction. So usually a rocket, you have exhaust going one way and the rocket goes the other way. This goes the same. So it's weird.

• 1:23:34Danny Jones?

  That's wild.

• 1:23:34Speaker 04

  And his, his, his gravity wave amplifiers would turn a certain direction, the ship would go in that direction to go with it.

• 1:23:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:42Speaker 04

  So I'm like, okay, it could be an electromagnetic thing. And if it is, that's pretty exciting because that's basically in line with what Drew and I are, are starting to scratch the surface on.

• 1:23:52Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:23:52Speaker 04

  You know, basically, you know, we're probably years away from something that exotic, but that could be something like that. It looks, at least it falls within something that humans can probably test and understand long before gravity waves. And I hope you guys have good security around your lab.

• 1:24:09Danny Jones?

  Someone will come in and steal our styrofoam.

• 1:24:11Speaker 04

  There's too many missing scientists popping up.

• 1:24:12Speaker 03

  We have the best security possible. Nobody believes us.

• 1:24:18Speaker 03

  That our next door neighbors don't believe us. They just, they just shake their head and say, what a waste. So much potential. And then they move on and go do whatever they're gonna do.

• 1:24:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Well, you have, you know, just so many stories of like those scientists that go missing. And then you even had that, that lady, that Ning Li lady who discovered that the conductor, the super conductor, conductor, whatever, the spun, it did something crazy, right? And then she, she actually, it got peer reviewed and she got a contract with the DOD, I think. And then she just like vanished. And people think that like, the Chinese basically rendered her back to China to do some work for them or something, maybe.

• 1:24:58Speaker 04

  That's probably the most likely.

• 1:24:59Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:00Speaker 03

  Possible. There are some people in the, at the APEC group who've been in that world for 25 plus years. And, and they have a lot of historical knowledge and they know some of these people. So we're hearing that statistically, it's just, it's not a thing. These, some of these people were perhaps not, not fully stable. Some of these people were being lumped together in groups that don't belong together. So, you know,

• 1:25:28Speaker 04

  That's the consensus.

• 1:25:29Speaker 03

  Because we talk about this.

• 1:25:30Speaker 04

  From that community, which I'd be, I would think they'd be the experts.

• 1:25:32Speaker 03

  We talk about this regularly and

• 1:25:34Danny Jones?

  About this lady in particular?

• 1:25:35Speaker 04

  About the whole phenomenon of the scientists missing.

• 1:25:38Speaker 03

  There's 10 or 20 of these people.

• 1:25:39Danny Jones?

  Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. A lot of them, a lot of them. Yeah. But there's a, there's a hand, there's a few of them that are, like the general, the McCaslin guy, that one was very odd.

• 1:25:49Speaker 03

  So we, we, you know, we, we're not taking any extraordinary precautions.

• 1:25:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:55Speaker 03

  You know, we're, we're a small business and we have the precautions that a small business requires. And basically, nobody believes us, really, nobody. Not even our, our, our wives barely believe us. Okay. And his wife can explain the physics better than he can, and she barely believes us.

• 1:26:13Danny Jones?

  Ah, that's funny.

• 1:26:16Danny Jones?

  So if some men in black showed up at your laboratory and they said, hey, guys, we were, you, you're gonna come work for us now. You, and you're gonna work underground, you're gonna kiss your public life goodbye, but we're gonna show you what's really going on. What would you do?

• 1:26:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, pack my bags. I'm gone.

• 1:26:36Speaker 03

  Gone, gone.

• 1:26:38Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:26:39Speaker 03

  No, I don't care where, I don't care if that thing's under the ocean.

• 1:26:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah. I used to think the same thing, like, you know, but on the other hand, the more I think about it, I'm like, I, maybe I really don't want to know the truth, you know, about what wrote all this stuff really is, because I don't know what kind of baggage that comes with, you know, because there's so many different people, you know, there's so many different stories around this stuff. And, you know, it's just, it's, it's really hard to like, keep one coherent sort of view on this kind of stuff because it's so intertwined with all the UFO stuff, you know? And there's so many UFO stories. And it's hard to, it's hard to pick the wheat from the chaff, you know? It's just like the zone has been flooded

• 1:27:21Danny Jones?

  with so much crazy stuff. And within those, that big cauldron of craziness, there's a lot of real stuff. There has to be a lot of real stuff. So

• 1:27:33Speaker 03

  We're really not.

• 1:27:33Danny Jones?

  And a lot of that stuff comes with like, you know, remote controlling stuff with your consciousness, you know? And I have, I know a lot of really smart people, including Jesse Michaels, who's been studying this stuff forever, who's talked to all the most brilliant people on earth when it comes to this stuff, including you. I don't know if you've talked to him, but like, he thinks that that, that is a potential thing. And he's talked to people that have worked in like, you know, aerospace companies or have been, there's one guy he talked to who was a, he works for, for, I think NASA or SpaceX. And he is the guy who like oversees all the launches or whatever. And this guy works in the Huntsville, Alabama, location.

• 1:28:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, Marshall.

• 1:28:19Danny Jones?

  And, and, you know, apparently like really high level and as far as rocketry. And he's been, you know, he also, I think he had a friend on the Challenger shuttle mission. And, you know, this guy is of the belief that it's the same thing. So I don't know. It's just, it's too confusing for me to, to navigate.

• 1:28:39Speaker 03

  I gotta tell you, we're, we're so far down the food chain. That's the beauty of nobody, nobody believes us, is we just do our thing. We publish our results to our friends and to our potential customers. And we just keep moving forwards. That's our goal. Our goal is to listen to the madness and enjoy the stories, if that's what they are, read the headlines. You know, I'd, I'd look forward to the, to the launches. You know, I've, I've seen most of them for the last 50 years. I live on the, I live in, within 30 miles of where I, I grew up. So it's, it's, it's, it's everything we can do to move our little piece of the story forward.

• 1:29:23Danny Jones?

  I had a friend who was out fishing the other day when he, and he saw that shuttle explode, that Blue Origin one, or the, the rocket.

• 1:29:29Speaker 04

  Rocket, yeah.

• 1:29:30Speaker 03

  Yeah. That was, that was unfortunate.

• 1:29:34Speaker 04

  Shook my house.

• 1:29:35Speaker 03

  Yes. I have.

• 1:29:37Danny Jones?

  Was that, what was that one doing? That one was sending satellites up or something?

• 1:29:40Speaker 03

  It was just static firing the engine.

• 1:29:41Danny Jones?

  Static fire. That's why your job's so important.

• 1:29:43Speaker 03

  They're getting ready to, to.

• 1:29:44Speaker 04

  Not, not, not an electrostatic fire.

• 1:29:46Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 1:29:46Speaker 04

  Static means it's static, not moving. So you hold the rocket down.

• 1:29:50Speaker 03

  They bolt the rocket down.

• 1:29:51Speaker 04

  And then they, oh, shoot the engine.

• 1:29:53Speaker 03

  They fire the engine.

• 1:29:53Danny Jones?

  It's a test. I see what you mean.

• 1:29:55Speaker 04

  Static fire.

• 1:29:55Danny Jones?

  Electrostatic fire would have been Apollo 1, right?

• 1:29:58Speaker 03

  No, no. Apollo 1 was a, was just a fire.

• 1:30:01Danny Jones?

  Just a regular fire.

• 1:30:02Speaker 03

  Apollo 1 happened because certain people did not understand the theory behind absolute pressure or gauge pressure. They thought they were the same thing. So Apollo 1 was a, was, it wasn't an error. It was an act of stupid. Well, it was an act of stupid.

• 1:30:24Speaker 03

  Most of the time when you end up killing your crew is an act of stupid, because the hardware has been, they've beaten the hardware to where it's, it can handle the loads. But then you do something stupid and the hardware can't handle it no more.

• 1:30:38Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:30:38Speaker 03

  So it's very sad.

• 1:30:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it was tragic. And, and the guy Gus Grissom like famously hung a lemon over the shuttle or whatever.

• 1:30:48Danny Jones?

  Just because he thought that the equipment was, I mean, obviously he had a good reason to believe that the equipment was not up to par.

• 1:30:55Speaker 03

  It's very difficult. I believe it was Mr. Musk that said that rockets are hard. Rocketry is hard and he's not kidding.

• 1:31:05Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:31:06Speaker 03

  You know, and he's spent enough money to find out how difficult it is and, you know, through sheer perseverance and the incredible engineering effort of his team, they just move forward. They move, they move forward faster than we do. Okay. We move forward fast. I mean, we, we test once or twice a week, three times a week, sometimes four, and we have iterations twice a week sometimes. Those guys are moving light years faster than we are.

• 1:31:35Danny Jones?

  They also have unlimited budgets.

• 1:31:36Speaker 03

  They also have a far larger team. They have a much narrower scope of what they're trying to do.

• 1:31:42Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:31:43Speaker 03

  And people have built rockets before, you know, and I don't think anyone's built what we're building before. And if they have, I'd really like to talk to them.

• 1:31:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, you know, we don't want to be mixed in with the, with, you know, with the alien crowd and all that. This is just another discovery in physics.

• 1:32:01Speaker 05

  I started Ornot in 2013 and we make bike apparel. The best part of Shopify for me is our ability to run the business as essentially non-technical people. We're able to admin everything on the backend, frontend, and sell things online easily. If Shopify were a bike accessory, I think it would actually be the bicycle. It's the thing that you do the thing on. We run the business on Shopify. Start your free trial on Shopify.com.

• 1:32:30Speaker 06

  At Humana, our Medicare Advantage plans are easy to understand and easy on your wallet, like offering more benefits than you'd get from original Medicare alone, and including dental, vision, and hearing coverage in every plan. And the best part is every plan has a $0 or low monthly plan premium, which makes it easier to save too. So this Medicare planning season, plan well with Humana. Learn more at gethumana.com. Humana is a Medicare Advantage, HMO, and PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 1:33:01Speaker 04

  I think. And, um.

• 1:33:04Danny Jones?

  Well, how could you be into this stuff and not love the aliens?

• 1:33:07Speaker 04

  Oh yeah, you do love it.

• 1:33:08Speaker 03

  You do. You just like to hear the stories and, you know, watch the movies.

• 1:33:11Speaker 04

  You know, and I told Jesse.

• 1:33:12Speaker 03

  It's great fun and.

• 1:33:14Speaker 04

  You know, I've, you know, I've experienced some of these clairvoyance things myself.

• 1:33:18Danny Jones?

  Clairvoyance?

• 1:33:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, I, like anything in, in the world, you have to believe it, to believe it, you have to test it yourself. Don't just take someone's word for it. Just try it out. Like telepathy, very real. You have to track, you have to practice it. Clairvoyance, there's books that tell you how to do it. I was a kid, I was all into that stuff. Just draw something on a paper, have someone else draw something and you figure out what it is without looking at it and just draw what you think it is. If they concentrate on, on it real hard enough and you read their mind and, and all that, you'll see what they see. It's not too complicated. It's not too hard. You just have to do it. Telepathy, telepathy is the same way. Do that experiment with my kids a lot, you know?

• 1:33:59Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:33:59Speaker 04

  Think of something I'm saying and they just think of something. I do with my wife, you know, just all the time, but whatever you're thinking of.

• 1:34:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Speaker 04

  Just practice it. You practice it, you get good at it. I have no idea how it works, but.

• 1:34:11Danny Jones?

  It's also interesting that, you know, Edgar Mitchell got really into that stuff.

• 1:34:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's a different phenomenon. There's a lot of things that, and I tell the students this and, you know, I gave a talk at the, the Electrostatic Society of America, which I'm now the president of. And I told the, the young folks in there, there's a, there's a lot left to be discovered. You know, everyone thinks everything's done. Everything's discovered. And that that's not true. You know, it's the 21st century, but there's still discoveries to be made. You know, I discovered with three or four different phenomena in electrostatics.

• 1:34:42Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:34:42Speaker 04

  Propulsion is just one of them. But it's, it's, we're still a very young species. There's a lot more to, to, to learn. And, uh, you know, don't, uh, don't think science is done. It's not.

• 1:34:53Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:34:54Speaker 04

  And, um, it's an exciting world we live in. I think it's a very exciting world. Personally, I think it's really exciting. I think it's gonna get more exciting as we get further along here.

• 1:35:02Danny Jones?

  I think there's a lot more to it than just like the nuts and bolts, physical react, like the physical elements of stuff, right? I, I think there's, you know, just studying the history of NASA, like those do, you know, L. Ron Hubbard was best friends with fricking Jack Parsons doing all kinds of crazy séances and witchcraft and these guys were into all kinds of wacky stuff.

• 1:35:25Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:35:25Danny Jones?

  You know, like how, how, and, you know, and a Nazi. So you have like the three craziest, you know, types of people you could imagine coming together and, and, and forming NASA. Like they were, it seems like there was way more to this rocketry stuff than just.

• 1:35:44Speaker 03

  But when all was said and done, they were crazy on their own time. They were working with Robert Goddard's liquid fuel engine during their daytime. So they were doing real engineering, real rocket science during the daytime. They made crazy, you know, let's go get a beer and, and do a séance or whatever. I don't know. But during the daytime, they were learning how to build a nozzle that expanded the gas that they were generating in the powerhead. They were learning how to pump fuel where they were gonna go. Um, they were, they, they, I don't know that they were doing those squiggles, but, um,

• 1:36:25Speaker 03

  but they were doing rocket engineering based on what was known at the time. And they actually didn't know it, but so was a young von Braun over in Germany doing basically the same studies that they were doing. And he had, he had a different funding source. Um, so yeah, you can, you can, you can put as much of the séance stuff in there as you want, but if you're not based in the physics and in the engineering of your day, you're just, you know, you're guessing.

• 1:37:00Danny Jones?

  Totally.

• 1:37:01Speaker 03

  We build hardware. We build hardware that works. We build hardware that can be tested, reproduced, and gets the job done. And the job for us is we want to put the chemical rocketry people out of jobs. We want to, we want to replace chemical rocketry.

• 1:37:17Danny Jones?

  That's the other thing I wanted to ask you is, do you think there's sort of like a built-in conflict of interest with people who would potentially invest in this stuff? Because those people could also be invested in other huge rocket companies, energy companies, oil companies, that kind of thing. And there could be, do you think that's possible? There could be, you know, a huge effort to shove this stuff underground or keep it buried so that, you know, people can continue making trillions of dollars. And, you know, the whole world economy is based on oil. And if this stuff becomes, if this gets, if this gets advanced enough and people can power their jet skis with it, you know, that could, that could disrupt the entire world, world.

• 1:38:02Speaker 03

  The reality of it is it takes 20 to 30 years for any technology to be accepted by the civilization. That's just the reality. The phone, electricity, running water, indoor bathrooms, these, these things didn't, somebody, somebody showed the cell phone. It was 25 years before anybody had real cell phones. It just, that's how long it takes. It takes a while for the civilization to accept it. Um, right now, the civilization around us is very happy with what they have. Okay. They have chemical rocketry to get you off the ground. They have ion rocketry, which is an electrically enhanced chemical rocketry to get you into orbit and keep you there. They're, they're all very happy, by the way.

• 1:38:44Speaker 03

  There, there's nobody that hates the situation of space right now. Nobody, nobody goes, I'm not going to put up this fleet of satellites because I have to deal with chemical rocketry. I have to deal with ion rockets or ion engines and it's just such a bother. I'm not going to do it. Nobody's saying that. They're saying, okay, it costs X amount of dollars to do this. It costs X amount of dollars to do that. We're going to make X amount of dollars. We're going to charge people more for their cell phone service or whatever. We're coming into it with, hey, we can offer you a better product at the same cost, but this product has so much more potential that you're going to find new ways to make money. But it's

• 1:39:27Speaker 03

  still going to take 10, 15, 20 years before anybody, if, if we were accepted tomorrow, it'd be 20 years before we have integrated into the current ethos of, of, of making money in space.

• 1:39:44Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:39:45Speaker 03

  Before, before we're, before we're a serious player. So that's the reality of where we are in the, in the big picture.

• 1:39:53Speaker 04

  And I think this would be hard to keep under a lid. You know, it's out now.

• 1:39:56Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:39:57Speaker 04

  You know, this, this force, it's out there. People can look at it. People can build it. People can test it. It'd be tough to put a lid on it. Um, can it solve the energy crisis? Who knows? You know, can it, can it do all these magical things that we promised? You know, lifting cars and replacing rockets? We hope so.

• 1:40:16Danny Jones?

  This might be a really dumb question, but what about like propelling stuff in the ocean?

• 1:40:22Speaker 04

  It's even tougher.

• 1:40:24Danny Jones?

  Even tougher?

• 1:40:25Speaker 04

  Yeah. You got all, you got a big force of drag there.

• 1:40:28Speaker 03

  600 times the density.

• 1:40:30Danny Jones?

  If you could find something that was a little floaty, maybe you're like neutral buoyancy.

• 1:40:33Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:40:35Danny Jones?

  Maybe it'd be.

• 1:40:36Speaker 03

  You have X amount of pounds of force. A propeller, a propeller or, um, uh, I guess that's the, the.

• 1:40:45Speaker 03

  A thruster underwater, whether it's electric or mechanical, all it does is produce force. You're pushing the water behind you to push the boat forwards.

• 1:40:53Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 1:40:54Speaker 03

  So let's say you make 100 pounds of force with your propeller, for whatever reason, whatever shape or size you are, underwater, on the surface, you know, on a hydrofoil above it, you got 100 pounds of force from your propulsion system.

• 1:41:06Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:41:07Speaker 03

  Your propeller is interacting with the water and giving you 100 pounds of net force. Well, that's like putting a box with 100 pounds of net force in the middle of your boat and saying, what can you do with it? Well, you can do whatever you can do with 100 pounds of our force, you could do with 100 pounds from a propeller. You just don't have to stick anything in the water.

• 1:41:26Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:41:27Speaker 03

  So, can it move a boat? Sure, if you've got enough force. Can it move an airplane? Sure, if you've got enough force. Can it lift an airplane up? Sure, if you've got enough propulsion to offset the weight of the airplane.

• 1:41:40Speaker 04

  It's the new force, you do what you want with it.

• 1:41:41Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:41:42Speaker 04

  Use it to spin a turbine, windmill, for energy. You can do anything you want with this new force.

• 1:41:48Danny Jones?

  Right. And you guys have done over 2,000 different experiments of this?

• 1:41:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, we showed you a couple.

• 1:41:53Speaker 03

  About 2,500, probably.

• 1:41:55Speaker 04

  Well, it was...

• 1:41:56Danny Jones?

  2,500?

• 1:41:58Speaker 03

  Easily, easily.

• 1:42:00Speaker 04

  Do you want to talk to this guy?

• 1:42:01Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Some of this stuff is amazing. Like, we would go to lunch every once in a while and we would beg Janessa to come with us because she's way smarter than Charles.

• 1:42:11Speaker 04

  It's my wife.

• 1:42:13Speaker 03

  And, you know, she would kick out ideas and we would write them down because that's, you know. And we got really excited when Charles figured out that it was the asymmetry of the system that made it work. I mean, we got super excited because nobody had ever had this thought. We're like, awesome, look at this. And then, you know, this took hundreds of experiments to get to the point where he had enough data to where he could process in his mind what the data meant. So it took hundreds of these, we called them Pac-Mans because they were little curved things that had, they were cute little Pac-Man looking things.

• 1:42:56Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:42:57Speaker 03

  But we burned them up, we'd light them on fire, we just did a lot of very bad things. Get very electrocuted, very shocked.

• 1:43:04Danny Jones?

  This is...

• 1:43:05Speaker 03

  But the net result was, he turned that idea, all that synthesized data into a revelation. And once we had that direction, once we heard, once we had it in our heads, that it was the asymmetry, we just optimized the asymmetry.

• 1:43:23Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:43:23Speaker 03

  You know? How many ways are there to optimize asymmetry? Okay, well, you could build one side bigger than the other, you could build one side different than the other, you could crank up the voltage on one side and reduce it on the other.

• 1:43:36Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:43:36Speaker 03

  So there's a few knobs, if you will, a few tricks of the trade. And then, once we had that, we were off to the races.

• 1:43:46Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:43:47Speaker 03

  So, that's the sort of, you know, our stuff isn't linear. We don't go in and say, test, test, test, test, test. Okay, and then we move 1% in the right direction. We'll go days or weeks down the wrong rabbit hole. And it's interesting, and like Edison, we know 10,000 ways how not to build a light bulb.

• 1:44:05Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:44:06Speaker 03

  Well, we have about 3,000, 3,500 ways how not to build a thruster.

• 1:44:12Danny Jones?

  How many different people are you guys, like, bringing in to, like, look at what you're doing and throw out ideas, just to get, like, new perspectives on things?

• 1:44:22Speaker 04

  Well, we've had, you know, chemical engineers help us with some of that route, chemistry route. Neither one of us are chemists. We have material scientists, physicists, model, modeling, we did some of that, optimization, some of that's in the patent, too. So, different ideas, we can get them from optimization, from the, you know, from the programs, the computer. Or, you know, people do have all kinds of ideas. Try this, try that, try this, you know.

• 1:44:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:44:52Speaker 04

  And, you know, we can try things as we go, if we wish, you know, that's the right direction. But, you know, we've gotten to the point where we know what works and kind of know what doesn't work.

• 1:45:03Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:04Speaker 04

  And, so, we might be past some of the traditional, try this, try that, try this, for these DC version of thrusters. But there's other classes of thrusters that we are going into that are going to be more complicated in the future, that we'll have to go back to the well and say, okay, how do we get the most out of this? It's something we're not familiar with. Whether it's a voltage waveform, or a material type, or some kind of permutivity, or something that's new that we're going to, you know, keep adding to it, we'll go find those experts for those skillsets to make the thrusters. And we know a bunch of folks in a variety of different fields.

• 1:45:43Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:43Speaker 04

  So it depends on what it is.

• 1:45:45Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:45:45Speaker 04

  So, that's the beauty of this. I mean, it's, it seems to be working, so why not try something more elaborate, more expensive, and with a better benefit in the end, now that we know that the base cases are working. So we will find those folks if we don't already have them.

• 1:46:03Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:46:04Speaker 04

  But...

• 1:46:05Danny Jones?

  Can I see, you guys bring, like, a video showing it, showing it creating the thrust? Or do you have a video that we can show?

• 1:46:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, that one that was earlier.

• 1:46:11Danny Jones?

  It's on a, you have it on a scale, right? And it shows you, like, the weight changing?

• 1:46:15Speaker 03

  Oh, you wanted to, he's talking about, he's not talking about the...

• 1:46:19Danny Jones?

  Or whatever, something like that, I don't know.

• 1:46:21Speaker 03

  We can show you of it spinning. I don't know, this is a joke. And of course, it's based on an old advertising thing. You know, $350,000 for a lab.

• 1:46:31Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:31Speaker 03

  You know, $8,000 in lost time for a bunch of, you know, engineers, $32 bucks for the wings and the soda. You know, look on the new guy's face, that there's no sane people in the room? Priceless. Okay? You have no idea how many really smart guys have floated in and out over the years and just gone, you people are mad. And then went back to their lives and had great lives, okay? While we have had our lives. So, then this is, a couple of those guys are serious team members. And everybody wants, everybody wants the dream. They all want to help make the dream go forwards, but they're all specialized in their little tiny fields. Like, one guy

• 1:47:16Speaker 03

  there, a couple of people there at NASA, is, one guy's an electrical engineer, another guy's a prototyping engineer, another guy's a business interface engineer, or business, he used to be a mechanical engineer. And another guy came from a background of prototyping and building human-rated bicycles, that the bicycles that can go like 100 miles an hour, little bicycle stuff. So, our team has had the benefit of genius over the years. And, you know, it's gotten us to where we are now. As far as new people coming in,

• 1:47:59Speaker 03

  it's gotten a lot more specialized now that we have a target.

• 1:48:03Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:48:05Speaker 03

  For example, this is a...

• 1:48:06Danny Jones?

  Target meaning this thing, right?

• 1:48:08Speaker 03

  Well, yeah. We have, you know, potential customers and customers want what they want.

• 1:48:13Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:48:13Speaker 03

  So we're targeting for the customer interface. For example, this is the thruster on, basically it's on a stick, and it's just balanced by the weight of the battery and stuff, and...

• 1:48:26Danny Jones?

  Where's the thruster?

• 1:48:27Speaker 03

  It's underneath that white plastic.

• 1:48:29Danny Jones?

  Plastic bag.

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  Originally, it was just on the end of the stick. Then, the guy, actually Charles' mentor, said, uh, put some, put some plastic around it because it could be ion wind. We did. Then we put it in a plastic bag. Then we put a plastic bag over the plastic bag. And by the time we got done, we had like six plastic bags on the end of this stupid thing. And it still made thrust. And, you know...

• 1:48:53Speaker 04

  He was like, I don't know how this is working.

• 1:48:55Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:48:56Speaker 04

  Calling, I've known over 25 years a master electrostatics professor.

• 1:49:01Speaker 03

  So, that's the kind of people we have on our team, is people that come in and say, this isn't real. And then, okay, well, what can we do to make it real for you? And then they give us what they want. Well, I want to see it put in a bag. I want to see you put it in vacuum. And we do all of these things, and it passes their tests, and then they shake their head and they go, wow, this thing could be real. And then they go off and, you know, go back to their normal lives. And we take what we've learned from them and move forwards.

• 1:49:29Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:49:30Speaker 04

  So, this is a carousel, a vertical hanging carousel, I guess you would call it.

• 1:49:37Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:49:38Speaker 04

  So it's balanced, you can't see the other half of it, but basically on the bottom half, you have a pack of thrusters. On the top half, you have a pack of thrusters, which you can't see. And then the middle is a power supply, or Bluetooth, we talk to it through the vacuum chambers. So this is a high vacuum test of a thruster pack, and it's surrounded in a plastic Faraday cage, which is on the left, you can see the ITO, the indium tin oxide plastic.

• 1:49:58Danny Jones?

  Yep.

• 1:49:59Speaker 04

  And then, we turn it on and you can see it, you know, rotate.

• 1:50:03Speaker 03

  So it's showing motion in vacuum, which is very difficult to do. And you can, you can, you can figure out how much it weighs. Yeah, here it is. This is, this is it without any plastic bags on it.

• 1:50:15Danny Jones?

  That's moving pretty fast.

• 1:50:16Speaker 04

  No, no.

• 1:50:17Speaker 03

  It is sped up.

• 1:50:18Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:50:19Speaker 03

  These are very slow things. Okay? But again, that whole thing is just another one of these white foam things.

• 1:50:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, styrofoam.

• 1:50:25Speaker 03

  Okay? The whole thing only makes about 125 micro newtons.

• 1:50:30Danny Jones?

  Now it's going the other way.

• 1:50:31Speaker 03

  It's because of the torsion in the string. You cut the, you go as far as you can go and you cut the power, and it has to unwind, it has to unwind the string.

• 1:50:40Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:50:41Speaker 03

  And then it'll go and it'll come to a stopping point. And you turn it on again and it winds the string back out.

• 1:50:46Danny Jones?

  That's wild.

• 1:50:48Speaker 03

  That, somebody said, well, it's not real unless it can do that.

• 1:50:51Danny Jones?

  How sped up is this? 2X? 3X?

• 1:50:53Speaker 04

  This was a long video, so we constricted it, that's why we sped it up.

• 1:50:56Speaker 03

  10X.

• 1:50:57Danny Jones?

  10X, wow.

• 1:50:58Speaker 03

  Probably 10X.

• 1:50:59Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 1:51:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's sped up.

• 1:51:02Speaker 04

  This took maybe three minutes, four minutes to do this.

• 1:51:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, it takes about, it took about four or five minutes to go around in a circle.

• 1:51:07Danny Jones?

  Okay. And the video's how long, roughly? That'll give us an idea of how fast it sped up.

• 1:51:12Speaker 04

  I don't know. It's not clicking on me.

• 1:51:13Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:51:14Speaker 03

  I don't know.

• 1:51:14Danny Jones?

  No worries.

• 1:51:15Speaker 03

  I'm guessing it's somewhere between 5 and 10X.

• 1:51:17Speaker 04

  There we go. So this, this section of it's been a minute.

• 1:51:20Danny Jones?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:51:23Speaker 04

  But we have lots of videos like this. And this one's real time. This one's not sped up.

• 1:51:26Speaker 03

  This is the same.

• 1:51:27Speaker 04

  So this is kind of.

• 1:51:28Speaker 03

  This is a thruster with plastic bags on it.

• 1:51:30Speaker 04

  It moves almost the same speed. This is a couple of years later. So this is a bit newer than the last one.

• 1:51:36Speaker 03

  And then we then we said, okay, well, we've done about all we can do in open air.

• 1:51:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:51:40Speaker 03

  So now let's go.

• 1:51:41Speaker 04

  What I like about this is.

• 1:51:42Speaker 03

  What's the next thing?

• 1:51:42Speaker 04

  He walks right by it. So you would think all the wind from him walking right by would just stop this thing in its tracks and move it the other way. It didn't even faze it.

• 1:51:50Danny Jones?

  That's pretty insane.

• 1:51:51Speaker 04

  Did you see that?

• 1:51:52Speaker 03

  And this is, you know, we've tried different power supplies.

• 1:51:55Speaker 04

  Here it is. It's coming this way. So it's, you know, it's going counterclockwise. Drew walks right past it.

• 1:52:00Danny Jones?

  Now, what could like the world's most vicious skeptic say about this? Like, how, what holes could they? What holes could they poke in that?

• 1:52:09Speaker 04

  Normally, any kind of thruster that you would do, electric only, the first thing they'd say, well, you're interacting with the earth's magnetic field. So, and that that can happen, but not for an electrostatic thruster, not for one that doesn't have current. So if you could do the current, calculate whatever current you need to, you know, to charge the plates, it's tiny. And the magnetic field that you get from that is infinitesimal. So you can't interact with the earth's magnetic field with our magnetic field because it's so small. And plus it goes around a full circle, so it doesn't matter anyway.

• 1:52:40Speaker 03

  And then, and then we put a super magnet, one of these little.

• 1:52:43Speaker 04

  So that's one of the.

• 1:52:44Speaker 03

  One of these super, super little magnets.

• 1:52:45Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:52:46Speaker 03

  Underneath it, and it just goes right over the top. So that's one of them. There's no ferromagnetic.

• 1:52:49Speaker 04

  There's a list of skeptical things.

• 1:52:51Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:52:52Speaker 04

  So earth's magnetic field is one of them. The ion wind, which we talked about.

• 1:52:55Danny Jones?

  We've addressed both of those.

• 1:52:56Speaker 04

  Well, there's, there's, there's half a dozen of them.

• 1:52:58Speaker 03

  There's, there's many of them.

• 1:53:00Speaker 04

  So you have an ion wind, which is basically you're, you're charging the air and the air is accelerating. So we put everything in styrofoam or plastic or RTV or epoxy. And then cover that in bags if we need to, for the demonstration purposes. Our test articles, we don't, we don't always, you know, go to that rigor unless it's a demonstration. Test articles, we're fine enough with the ITO Faraday shields. So we make sure all of that's intact. But so you want a Faraday shield that you want to encapsulate it. You want to keep it away from something. You do not want any Coulomb attraction near anything. So you don't have any cabinets or tables or chairs feet away.

• 1:53:36Speaker 04

  So there's no force of attraction. And then you can see it go around the room. So if there is a cabinet that's attracted to, which is probability less than a fraction of a percent, it still moves past it and keeps going.

• 1:53:46Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:53:47Speaker 04

  Probability is now zero. So there's so many, there's so many facets to this that, you know, we've addressed every issue multiple times over in multiple configurations, as many as we can come up with. So the very last thing, you know, we should do, and we have to do is just put it in space. That's it. That's the last hurdle. Put it in space and see what it does.

• 1:54:09Danny Jones?

  Couldn't you do this? Don't, doesn't NASA have like space chambers you can use?

• 1:54:14Speaker 04

  He's got one here. This is what they would have at NASA. These are high vacuum chambers.

• 1:54:17Danny Jones?

  I mean, like a huge one, like the size of this room.

• 1:54:19Speaker 04

  Yes. So that could be another thing. Some of the aerospace companies that we're going to test this for us don't go down high enough vacuum for the large, large ones. It's a basically a belief system.

• 1:54:30Danny Jones?

  They do.

• 1:54:31Speaker 03

  Also, I have a chamber that you could put this desk inside of.

• 1:54:34Danny Jones?

  Oh, do you really?

• 1:54:35Speaker 03

  At our facility. Yeah.

• 1:54:37Speaker 04

  So that is another thing, you know, we could do. Get that sucker up online. That's a very expensive chamber. So that is another.

• 1:54:45Danny Jones?

  And how do you set it up in, once it's in the chamber?

• 1:54:48Speaker 04

  You probably have to do something like this, where you put a framework around it and you cover it in a box.

• 1:54:52Speaker 03

  I'm a professional aerospace engineer. I built ground support equipment for 40 years. I'm really good at that.

• 1:54:58Speaker 04

  Right.

• 1:54:58Speaker 03

  Whatever test he needs run, I dream it up, all the hardware, then build it, then run the test, and then have him come and deep and, and take shots, take, you know, pot shots at what could be wrong. Why could that have done that? Why could it? Run this, flip it backwards, flip it 180, turn it 90 degrees. So.

• 1:55:19Speaker 04

  Do it in other chambers.

• 1:55:20Speaker 03

  We can do, we can build anything.

• 1:55:22Speaker 04

  Flip it the other way, see if it goes the correct direction. Put dummy plates in there that look just like your plates, but don't have the magic of the asymmetry that you've incorporated. See if they work. They don't work.

• 1:55:34Speaker 03

  Flip the plates.

• 1:55:35Speaker 04

  There's a lot of controls you can do.

• 1:55:37Speaker 03

  Flip the polarity.

• 1:55:38Speaker 04

  There's a lot of controls you could do. We've done them all, multiple times. Because nothing I hate more, and I'm sure Drew hates it too, is wasting our time.

• 1:55:46Speaker 03

  False data.

• 1:55:47Speaker 04

  We cannot stand that. False positives are a nightmare. So we always have to go through the rigor of flipping it backwards, putting in dummy plates, put in a bigger chamber. If we get something that's really nuts.

• 1:56:00Speaker 03

  Electrostatic, you put, you put 5,000 volts on a wire, you think, okay, I've just put 5,000 volts on a wire. If the wire is thin, it can actually physically change shape. Because the electrostatics inside want to get away from each other. The little electrons on the wire want to get away from each other. And they exert so much force on the insulation, they can actually make wires change shape.

• 1:56:23Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 1:56:23Speaker 03

  So if you have wires running to your test article, when you power it up, a source of false information could just be the fact that you powered it up. So in order to, to stop that, because Dr. Charles said, hey, we need to, that's the next order of operations. I said, okay, took the entire high voltage power supply and mounted it inside the test rig. Inside the Faraday cup, inside the Faraday chamber, and the whole thing is now on a pendulum.

• 1:56:53Speaker 04

  So you can see it here. I mean, you can shrink this down to nothing.

• 1:56:56Speaker 03

  I shrunk all that down and stuck it inside of the Faraday chamber, inside the Faraday box.

• 1:57:01Speaker 04

  So if your power supply is inside your box.

• 1:57:04Speaker 03

  Eliminating one more possible source of false information.

• 1:57:07Speaker 04

  That's really, really hard.

• 1:57:09Speaker 03

  And then ran a thousand tests in that new configuration. Spent at least a thousand that we've had.

• 1:57:15Speaker 04

  There are smart people that have very, very good ideas of how, how to be fooled. And, yeah, you know, we've just had to address all of them over the last 10 years. That's what we had to do. And that's okay. That's what we want.

• 1:57:26Speaker 03

  You know, the only person we're competing with is ourselves. We are going to innovate so fast that no one's going to be able to catch us.

• 1:57:35Speaker 04

  So that, that's pretty cool. That's where we're at. I mean, that's not where we're at. But that's, that's, to answer your question, yes, there's at least a half a dozen or a dozen different.

• 1:57:43Speaker 03

  And those things that are, you can't see them, but those things are these. This is, this is the actual, this is, that's from like five years ago, six years ago. But those stacks, you stack enough of those little bad boys up and you can make a five milli newton thruster.

• 1:57:57Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:57:57Speaker 03

  Then you put.

• 1:57:58Danny Jones?

  What is the, what is this thing in the middle made of?

• 1:58:01Speaker 03

  That's a sheet of brass.

• 1:58:02Danny Jones?

  That's just brass?

• 1:58:03Speaker 03

  Mm hmm. The yellow stuff is polymer tape called capton.

• 1:58:10Danny Jones?

  Now, what about like any kind of crazy exotic materials? Are there any like, like other materials that you guys could?

• 1:58:17Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 1:58:18Danny Jones?

  Think up that would make this stuff work?

• 1:58:20Speaker 04

  I mean, there are.

• 1:58:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:22Speaker 04

  I, I would say there are plenty of options, but you have to know why you're doing them, what you're doing for. Are you trying to shrink it down? Are you trying to make it lighter? Are you trying to increase the field? Are you trying to prevent breakdown of the plates of the field? Are you trying to increase the permutivity? Are you trying to decrease the permutivity? You know, there, there are a lot of material questions, and there are a lot of materials that can accommodate those design changes. So the answer is, of the 2,000 tests, many of them are literally material based.

• 1:58:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:58:51Speaker 04

  So, and then, you know, so there are, there's a wide space there. And there's no wrong answers. When people come up with things, you, there are so many facets in which this thing works. Not all of them are better. Drew would say, some of them are just worse. But I think we found that 90% of the time the darn force is there. Because it is so universal. It's just a universal force. It just is.

• 1:59:17Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:59:17Speaker 04

  It's hard to explain. And we, once you know the rules, you'll know before you even build it if it's going to work or not.

• 1:59:24Speaker 03

  The biggest, this is going to sound ridiculous, but our biggest problem was sometimes we don't have an off switch. We turn these things on, and in the physics of charging up high voltage materials, whether they be conductive, like metal, or dielectric, which just means they're non-conductive. Sometimes you transfer charge into or from, from one material into the other, so that when you turn the power off, the charge is still in there. It's like, it's like taking a balloon and rubbing it on a kitty. We don't hurt the kitty. We just rub the balloon on the kitty, and then the balloon sticks to the wall.

• 2:00:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:05Speaker 03

  Or, you know, you, you rub your hand and you can shock somebody. You've, you've imparted charge to yourself or the balloon. And that charge doesn't just instantaneously dissipate. Well, in our case, we're, we're, we're working with electrostatic fields that are so high that we can drive charge into materials that just don't, that you just don't expect them to take on a charge, driven, drive the charge down into them.

• 2:00:34Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:00:35Speaker 03

  Okay. And once, once you have the charge driven into the material, when you cut the power, that's the free charge. That goes away and goes back to sleep. But the charge that you've driven down into the materials.

• 2:00:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:00:52Speaker 03

  That charge has its own field because it's charged. Charge has field. Well, this is a field-driven phenomenon. It doesn't care where the field comes from. If it comes from live energy or if it comes from frozen charge, it doesn't care.

• 2:01:08Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:01:08Speaker 03

  As long as the, what I like to say, as long as the geometry is fixed, you know, the magic, however we set this thing up appropriately, and the charge is present, it'll continue to make thrust. So we'll run this, you know, we'll, we'll put together a really, really state of the art thruster, and I'll charge it for, I don't know, 30,000 seconds. That's, that's a normal test. And turn it off. Well, it's in high vacuum, and it's, it's got nowhere to go because it's isolated electrically. You know, I'll come back the next day and it'll still be there. The thrust will still be there, which means that it's been making thrust, you know, maybe, maybe it's making two, three, four milli newtons of thrust.

• 2:01:49Speaker 03

  When you come back the next day, it's still making three milli newtons of thrust. Now, at some point, as Dr. Charles will tell you, there are no perfect materials. There are no perfect conductors. There are no perfect insulators. So at some point, that charge will bleed off to somewhere. It will continue to migrate through the material. It'll migrate backwards. It'll do something. Because there are no perfect materials. Well, once the charge bleeds off, the thrust bleeds off. So when we really want to make a stinger of a thruster, we'll charge that thing up for.

• 2:02:27Speaker 03

  Uh, you know, a hundred thousand seconds, 200,000 seconds. You know, that's a long time. That's, that's a week. And then we'll just leave it be for a while.

• 2:02:39Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:02:40Speaker 03

  And it'll just stay on.

• 2:02:41Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:02:42Speaker 03

  Well, some customers, some customers want it to stay on.

• 2:02:48Speaker 04

  After our meeting.

• 2:02:49Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:02:50Danny Jones?

  What is this?

• 2:02:51Speaker 04

  This is the, that's the high voltage needle I told you about.

• 2:02:54Speaker 03

  Yeah, that was the, that was the, that was the idea of, of, that was a really bad idea.

• 2:02:59Danny Jones?

  Plastic tube over it.

• 2:03:01Speaker 04

  And, um.

• 2:03:01Speaker 03

  And again, it's just.

• 2:03:02Danny Jones?

  What is that thing on the bottom?

• 2:03:04Speaker 03

  It's a plastic tube.

• 2:03:05Speaker 04

  I used the, the, the white styrofoam.

• 2:03:06Speaker 03

  Wire and a plastic tube.

• 2:03:08Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:03:09Speaker 03

  And a piece of tape on the end of it.

• 2:03:11Danny Jones?

  What's the thing? What, what, what, what thing on the ground, though?

• 2:03:12Speaker 03

  That's a, this is a block of styrofoam.

• 2:03:14Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 2:03:14Speaker 04

  I have a ta, a ruler there to try to measure how far it moved.

• 2:03:19Speaker 04

  But I had to make sure it was plastic.

• 2:03:20Speaker 03

  And you do the weight, that thing was making about six millinewtons of thrust.

• 2:03:24Speaker 04

  It was 140,000 volts.

• 2:03:26Speaker 03

  It was 140,000 volts, but it was, it was making like six millinewtons of thrust. Well, that's insane. That's insane.

• 2:03:32Danny Jones?

  It's a lot of voltage, right?

• 2:03:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's insane voltages.

• 2:03:35Speaker 04

  So Drew's task to me, back in 2016, in April, after I went home and did this, after I saw his lab, his task was, to me, was, you gotta package that in this thing.

• 2:03:49Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:03:50Speaker 04

  You gotta put that in a, in that little test, um, toy. Yeah, because of power. 140,000 volts with no ground around it. You know, that's what, it had no ground around it.

• 2:03:59Speaker 03

  The power supply for that thing was the size of this room.

• 2:04:02Speaker 04

  So just to get.

• 2:04:02Speaker 03

  It was ridiculous.

• 2:04:03Speaker 04

  Just to get the grounds around it took a heck of a lot of development and understanding.

• 2:04:08Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:04:09Speaker 04

  Because you put 160,000 volts inside of a metal can, it's just gonna spark to the can and break, you know, just spark to it. So we had a lot of work to go from that to, you know, to other designs.

• 2:04:23Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:04:24Speaker 04

  But that's, that's kinda where we started.

• 2:04:26Danny Jones?

  Hmm. So the idea is to, is to do the same thing with lower and lower voltage?

• 2:04:31Speaker 04

  Lower voltage, smaller, higher force ratio. But there's a lot of, a lot of parameters to optimize.

• 2:04:36Danny Jones?

  Drop the voltage and increase the force.

• 2:04:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, so we're down to like.

• 2:04:39Speaker 03

  Right. If you, if you increase the field, the, cause voltage is just there to make the field.

• 2:04:44Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 2:04:44Speaker 03

  You increase the field, so if you drop the voltage, you gotta do something like bring the stuff closer together. That's, that, so you could keep the same field.

• 2:04:53Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 2:04:53Speaker 03

  So we, and we play at the edge of the envelope of, for materials. We play at 10 to the eighth volts per meter.

• 2:04:59Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:04:59Speaker 03

  That's, that's two orders of magnitude greater than it takes to break down air.

• 2:05:04Speaker 04

  That's the far view of it.

• 2:05:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:05:06Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:05:07Speaker 04

  So you don't wanna be near that thing, but.

• 2:05:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was, it was lethal. It was lethal at every.

• 2:05:12Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:05:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was lethal at every possible instance.

• 2:05:15Speaker 04

  So we had to make something that was non.

• 2:05:17Speaker 03

  That's why we only had our intern, um, run around and, and change stuff.

• 2:05:20Danny Jones?

  Now, how is this stuff different from the, the Byfield Brown effect?

• 2:05:25Speaker 04

  There are some overlap there, for sure.

• 2:05:27Danny Jones?

  There's overlap? And he was working with lots of, um, lots of voltage.

• 2:05:30Speaker 04

  He was, yeah, he was a million volts, so hundreds of thousands of volts, yeah.

• 2:05:34Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:05:35Speaker 04

  In air. There was a lot of ion wind, I'm sure, and some of his.

• 2:05:37Speaker 03

  There was a lot of ion wind.

• 2:05:39Speaker 04

  In some of his, but I don't think all of it was. I think some of it might, might have been this effect, cause they, those, these two effects counter each other based on the geometry. Our effect is much, much weaker than ion wind. So we wanna make sure we, you know, cancel the ion wind so we don't see it, cause it'll know a lot of force.

• 2:05:56Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:05:57Speaker 04

  So,

• 2:05:59Speaker 04

  but I wouldn't be surprised if there was some overlap there.

• 2:06:02Danny Jones?

  And isn't, isn't it true, like, what, sort of what he discovered was utilized for like the, the skin of some of the stealth bombers? There's some sort of like weird thing going on with the skin of those planes?

• 2:06:15Speaker 03

  That's the lore. We, you know.

• 2:06:17Danny Jones?

  That's not proven?

• 2:06:18Speaker 03

  I don't know if it's proven or not. I never worked on those programs.

• 2:06:22Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:06:23Speaker 04

  I mean, I, I think when you put a corona out in front of an airplane or in front of a spacecraft, you're getting a wind, but this wind is like one or two miles an hour. It's a tiny, slow, very weak wind. It's not strong. But maybe the thought was, for them, was to try to lower the turbulence of the gas. If it was a highly ionized gas, maybe someone thought that would work.

• 2:06:46Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:06:48Speaker 04

  I don't see how it would affect it in a, in a good way, in a meaningful way, but it doesn't mean they didn't test it. You know, high voltage corona wind is another specialty of a field, subset of electrostatics.

• 2:07:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:02Speaker 04

  Not something aerospace engineers spend a lot of time understanding and learning. So I wouldn't be surprised if they thought, oh, this is a wind, we'll just add a wind to our spacecraft without any propellers and increase the wind that we're making, you know, decrease the thrust that we need to get to the same speed, maybe lower the fuel or whatever, lower the friction.

• 2:07:18Speaker 03

  It could have been something as, as.

• 2:07:20Speaker 04

  It could have been something like that, but I don't.

• 2:07:21Speaker 03

  Try out, like, like they have, like, uh, they wanted to make, make torpedoes go faster. Okay, well, you're passing through water.

• 2:07:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:28Speaker 03

  So they would, there's, there's, there's, there's information out there that says that they put a small rocket motor facing forward on a torpedo.

• 2:07:37Speaker 03

  And then the, the bigger torpedo propulsion, of course, is in the back. You think, geez, how is that gonna help anything?

• 2:07:43Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:07:44Speaker 03

  Well, the rocket motor literally blasts gas in front of the torpedo. Well, gas displaces water, so now you're passing through a lower density fluid.

• 2:07:54Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:07:55Speaker 03

  Which is a combination of gas and water.

• 2:07:58Danny Jones?

  Like what creates a cavity right in front of the, of the torpedo?

• 2:08:01Speaker 03

  Just, and, and, and apparently that was enough to lower the, the viscosity of the water, or lower the, not water, but the viscosity of the combination gas and water. So now you're pushing your torpedo through a little bubble.

• 2:08:16Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:08:16Speaker 03

  Instead of, of solid water. So maybe you can go faster. That's the sort of thing that I could, I could understand from, uh, aerodynamics. Maybe they thought, well, let's, let's do that. Let's, let's push this corona gas out in front of the wing maybe somehow magically. And maybe as it gets swept back, it'll reduce the turbulence, or it'll, it'll, it'll recharge the laminar boundary layer. Cause that's usually where, where the drag comes from, is when the laminar, uh, boundary layer gets tripped and you go into turbulent flow. Maybe it'll, maybe it'll push that back another 10 or 20 percent and we'll gain some more laminar flow. Who knows? You know, they, they could have tried, tried it out. It may have done something.

• 2:09:00Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:09:00Speaker 03

  Um, it could have just been a good story.

• 2:09:02Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:09:02Speaker 03

  I, I don't know. Never worked on the program.

• 2:09:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's just so crazy to me how, how far advanced, you know, certain technologies have become where other ones have not, you know, for like, we can FaceTime people, you know, in New Zealand in literally a split second and

• 2:09:19Danny Jones?

  self-driving cars can deliver you a Caesar salad. But, but we haven't figured out a better way than this primitive combustion engine stuff where we're blasting out, you know, chemicals out of the back of a rocket and fire to launch shit into space. And that's like, seems to be like so much money wasted on doing that when we could figure out a better way. It's just one of those mysteries.

• 2:09:44Speaker 03

  We need to give him a team shirt.

• 2:09:46Speaker 04

  This is a better way.

• 2:09:47Speaker 03

  He wants to join the team.

• 2:09:48Speaker 04

  This tells you that.

• 2:09:49Danny Jones?

  Well, it's crazy though, that like, you guys are the first people I've talked to that are actually working on something like this. That's what's crazy to me.

• 2:09:55Speaker 04

  And, and it's really, it's not so much an engineering issue, it's more of a physics issue.

• 2:09:59Speaker 03

  Is this your pretzel?

• 2:10:00Speaker 04

  The physics, the physics of this didn't exist. This is a pretzel can.

• 2:10:03Speaker 03

  He's, he loves this stupid thing.

• 2:10:05Speaker 04

  This is a pretzel can. If you take.

• 2:10:06Speaker 03

  It's literally a can that had pretzels in it.

• 2:10:09Speaker 04

  And I, and I put a, a brass rod down the center, down the axis.

• 2:10:13Danny Jones?

  Peanut butter filled pretzels or just regular pretzels?

• 2:10:15Speaker 03

  I don't know. He ate them all.

• 2:10:16Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:10:16Speaker 04

  There's no pretzels in there now. Pretzels would not help. And then on the, uh, what I did is put a ground sheet in halfway inside the, uh, inside the pretzel can, that's only half the cylinder.

• 2:10:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:28Speaker 04

  So that's the ground. So here's your asymmetry from your high voltage rod to your halfway coated, um, pretzel can.

• 2:10:37Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:10:37Speaker 04

  Very expensive test, as you can imagine. As a joke. But no, the expensive part is all the power supplies and all that. But the pretzel can doesn't make a lot of thrust, but it still makes thrust. So that's what was needed, I think, for the last hundred years, like, like you're saying. The frustration is we don't have a, a nice new foundation of physics to start from. It always has to start from the foundation of physics and then move up, let the engineers work it from there. Now we have that, so now the engineers can work it from here, cause it's a, it's a discovery. It's what it is.

• 2:11:07Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:11:08Speaker 04

  So now we, what can we do with it? How strong can we make it? What are the end limits of this force?

• 2:11:13Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 2:11:13Speaker 04

  We've done all we could with the known forces at, at the time.

• 2:11:18Speaker 04

  This is something new now. We have a new toy now in, in this field of propulsion.

• 2:11:23Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah. And then also the, the, the most money.

• 2:11:28Danny Jones?

  I would imagine that the most money that gets spent on things like this are for the purposes of war, which is why they get hidden in these big contract, these defense programs, these defense contractors that are incentivized to keep stuff quiet and not to talk about it just for the, for national security type things and

• 2:11:45Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 2:11:46Danny Jones?

  Whatever. At least historically, that's a fact, you know, the most

• 2:11:48Speaker 03

  Nobody's throwing any money at us, so.

• 2:11:51Speaker 04

  Well, it's not getting buried by ITAR.

• 2:11:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:11:53Speaker 04

  If they want to steal my pretzel can, they're welcome to it.

• 2:11:55Danny Jones?

  My point was like, maybe that's why we don't see more of it in the public because it is hidden, because it's been worked on for, you know, international defense type stuff and the purposes of making weapons or whatever, which is, that would be, that would be the only plausible explanation I could come up with.

• 2:12:15Speaker 03

  I would love to talk to some of these engineers.

• 2:12:17Danny Jones?

  Secret.

• 2:12:17Speaker 03

  If they're working on something and they, and they want, I would love to have a conversation with them.

• 2:12:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:24Speaker 03

  Because I would love to know how they pulled off some of the stuff I'm struggling with right now.

• 2:12:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:12:30Speaker 03

  There's nobody I can, I can't go out there.

• 2:12:34Danny Jones?

  NDAs are pretty vicious, I've heard.

• 2:12:35Speaker 03

  I don't care. I would sign them.

• 2:12:38Danny Jones?

  No, I mean that Dave signed.

• 2:12:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:12:40Danny Jones?

  They can't talk to you.

• 2:12:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. There's just nobody out there. I mean, is there anybody out there you can talk to? I mean, is there anybody out there doing third order perturbation theory QED?

• 2:12:52Danny Jones?

  No, I don't.

• 2:12:53Speaker 03

  And I know there's nobody out there building thrusters that's, that's past me. Cause I talked to the next, I know the next five or 10 guys that are, that are in the realm of theory and building stuff and

• 2:13:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:06Speaker 03

  The guys that have reproduced my work. There's nobody, there's nobody, I'd love to, you know, and I want to hire them.

• 2:13:13Speaker 04

  On the reverse side, if it, if it is a military thing, it's, it's, it's hidden somewhere in a mountain and uses, it's used for, for weapons, for hurting folks or whatever.

• 2:13:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:22Speaker 04

  Is there any evidence of that? That, you know, some weird craft comes in way better than stealth technology.

• 2:13:27Danny Jones?

  I mean, look at the, we're, we're losing a war to Iran. We, we're not using any crazy exotic weapons with that. I mean, we still have these aircraft carriers and we're trying to fight against $20,000, you know, drones.

• 2:13:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. So I would think if we had, if we had something exotic, we, we might've, we might want to be using it.

• 2:13:42Danny Jones?

  Yeah. You would think that.

• 2:13:44Speaker 04

  We would be.

• 2:13:44Danny Jones?

  You would think if we had that, we might be using it now more than ever.

• 2:13:48Speaker 03

  You have a curious definition of losing if you think we're losing to Iran.

• 2:13:52Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:13:53Speaker 03

  I believe so.

• 2:13:54Danny Jones?

  Well, you think, you think the United States is winning that war?

• 2:13:59Speaker 03

  You have various curious definition.

• 2:14:02Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Well, everything that I've read at least doesn't seem like it's, uh, that we're doing too well. But, um, it is, it is definitely, you know, one of the hottest wars that we've seen as far as the United States being involved in, um, as far as like equipment being used, right? We have

• 2:14:20Speaker 04

  It's been very expensive.

• 2:14:20Danny Jones?

  We have lots of

• 2:14:21Speaker 03

  Very expensive and it's very conventional.

• 2:14:24Danny Jones?

  Very conventional.

• 2:14:25Speaker 03

  You know, it's almost as if they're depleting the conventional so they can fill up the armory with maybe the next gen. I don't know. Maybe they're going to fill it back up with gravity bombs again. Maybe they're going to fill it up with next gen. I don't know. I'm not connected in any way, shape or form with the military.

• 2:14:43Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:14:43Speaker 03

  But.

• 2:14:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Well, I would imagine that we would see something.

• 2:14:52Speaker 04

  There's a video of the chamber.

• 2:14:53Speaker 03

  This is super old.

• 2:14:54Speaker 04

  Um, but I'll just pause it.

• 2:14:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. Like, for example.

• 2:14:58Speaker 04

  Oh geez, if I can pause it on the right spot.

• 2:15:00Speaker 03

  If you can freeze it in the middle. I think you have to go to it.

• 2:15:03Speaker 04

  I got it.

• 2:15:03Speaker 03

  And again, we have a great big viewport on the side of the vacuum chamber and, um, you're just looking into the vacuum chamber. And this is back when we were just hanging things in the chamber. We didn't have a, a test stand around them or anything. Um, but there is an ITO box and it was, there's a, there's a, there's a

• 2:15:22Speaker 04

  Faraday cage.

• 2:15:23Speaker 03

  Faraday cage around the test article. That's kind of what the yellow thing is.

• 2:15:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:15:27Speaker 03

  A lot of tape on it. And then it, it goes, it's just free hanging and then it goes backwards to a load cell. So there, nothing's going to move in this test. The whole test is conducted because load cells give you information about the forces they experience, but they only move a tenth of a millimeter. So there's no motion in the test, but they're tugging on something. It's like every scale you've ever stepped on has load cells in it. That's how it, that's how it converts your weight into something that it can show you on a screen.

• 2:15:56Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:15:57Speaker 03

  So these are, this is, um, all our forces are against a load cell. The load cell is connected to a, a data acquisition system and that's converted into information that can be displayed on a screen. Um, back when we were showing the other movies, that little Chiron running along the bottom, we would take all our data that we collect, um, everything and put it on the screen and then just video it. It's the fastest way to record all, you know, 20 channels. So this is where we've evolved to is full vacuum, full shielding, and running against a, um, piece of equipment that's digital. So there's no human in the loop here. We, we run these tests automated.

• 2:16:37Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:16:38Speaker 03

  And the way I normally do them is I usually pull back on the, on the string a little bit, put about a 10, 15 millinewton, uh, force on the, on the meter and then see if it changes from that. That way, that, that way you're, there's no slack in the string and you don't, you don't, you're not changing things.

• 2:16:54Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:16:56Speaker 03

  But it takes, it takes 12 hours. You put a test article in there, it'll take 12 hours for the

• 2:17:01Danny Jones?

  That's a very impressive

• 2:17:02Speaker 03

  For the stretch in the string to, to level out.

• 2:17:05Speaker 04

  It's a really nice test setup.

• 2:17:06Speaker 03

  Water vapor on the surfaces. There's molecular water on every surface. It takes, it'd take 12 hours for the molecular water to evaporate off the surfaces. I can put a brand new thruster in there that I know is perfect. Put it in there, pump it down, run the test, see no thrust at all. Wait 12 hours and there's thrust.

• 2:17:26Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:17:27Speaker 03

  Well, well, what was wrong? What was wrong was there was molecular water on the surfaces that was acting as a metal and shorting out the thruster. That's not because it was a bad design. It's because there's water on everything

• 2:17:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:42Speaker 03

  In air. And you start by, you gotta be able to breathe. Otherwise it's really tough to work on stuff. So, you know, so we learned a lot about what it takes to do good testing and reproducing and good testing is the, is the core. You know, we come up with a design and we'll test and test and test and test and test. And this is just a really, that's, that's, that's a couple of years ago. But that was, those are fun days. That was like days when they were a whole lot simpler.

• 2:18:13Danny Jones?

  So you said earlier in the beginning of the podcast that you know a lot about the Saturn V rocket.

• 2:18:18Speaker 03

  I believe I do.

• 2:18:20Danny Jones?

  How come we haven't been able to create a rocket as good as that?

• 2:18:25Speaker 03

  We have.

• 2:18:26Danny Jones?

  Since the 60s.

• 2:18:27Speaker 03

  Funny rockets better than Saturn V.

• 2:18:28Speaker 02

  What if one bottle could replace the benefits of eight steps in your skincare routine? Get glass-like skin and your time back with the resurfacing compound by You Beauty. This transformative serum works to visibly brighten, smooth, and even your skin while helping minimize the look of pores, dark spots, and fine lines, all in one multitasking formula. It's breakthrough science and streamlined simplicity in a single step. For science-proven results without the clutter or confusion, shop the resurfacing compound by You Beauty

• 2:19:06Speaker 02

  now at youbeauty.com. That's the letter U, B-E-A-U-T-Y.com. Try You Beauty today.

• 2:19:15Speaker 06

  Network freedom and flexibility. That's what you want in a healthcare plan. With a Humana Medicare Advantage PPO plan, you can see any doctor in the country who accepts Medicare, including specialists. No referrals. No kidding. Learn more at gethumana.com. See any doctor who accepts Medicare and is willing to bill Humana. Humana PPOs may not be available in all areas. Benefits and costs share may vary. Humana is a Medicare Advantage PPO organization with a Medicare contract. Enrollment in any Humana plan depends on contract renewal.

• 2:19:46Danny Jones?

  Then how come we haven't, well, we haven't had a, we haven't had a rocket like the Saturn V that has been able to work on the first try without refueling?

• 2:19:58Speaker 03

  Saturn V's didn't work on the first try. It was the whole POGO problem. Did you ever hear about it?

• 2:20:04Danny Jones?

  No, I didn't. What is it?

• 2:20:05Speaker 03

  Saturn V's, the, the, the sloshing, you had, you had an instability in the, in the fuel tanks.

• 2:20:13Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:20:13Speaker 03

  Okay. And that ended up with sloshing around. So they had to put baffles in the fuel tanks and they still didn't get rid of the POGO problem. So they ended up

• 2:20:21Speaker 04

  What was the acronym for? POGO?

• 2:20:22Speaker 03

  They, it's POGO. Yeah. POGO, POGO Saturn V.

• 2:20:25Speaker 04

  What was the acronym? What's, what's the acronym?

• 2:20:27Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't know. It's just because of POGO stick. The thing, the thing would go boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

• 2:20:31Danny Jones?

  The fuel?

• 2:20:32Speaker 03

  No, it turned out to be instability in the combustion chamber in the oxygen mix when they were pumping in the liquid oxygen and the liquid hydro.

• 2:20:39Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:20:40Speaker 03

  It was, they're pumping in liquid oxygen and, um, uh, RP1, which is basically refined kerosene. And they ended up having to put simple circular baffles in the first stage combustor section of the, of the interchange. And that's all it took. And they eliminated POGO on like the third try.

• 2:21:02Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:21:02Speaker 03

  But they didn't see POGO until they were flying. They didn't see it in the F1 test because you don't take your whole F, the F1 was a monster of a test rig. When they put the F1 engines in the test rig and they fired them all up, you don't take your whole test rig and shake it up and down a couple of times a second like you do your rocket. So they didn't know there was a problem. It, it was a systemic problem. It was a problem created by the system of rocketry. Well, once they launched and they had POGO and they almost lost the Saturn V to it, they immediately went back to the drawing boards and figured out what the problem was and they fixed it in two or three runs. So by the time you got to putting people on board, the POGO problem was solved.

• 2:21:46Danny Jones?

  But is it true, we, isn't it true that we never like actually had a Saturn V explode or anything like that? Like the, the first actual launch with humans was successful?

• 2:21:55Speaker 03

  I do not believe they had a rapid disassembly. I know. I think, I think they succeeded in the Saturn V getting off the deck very well. But they blew up lots of F1 engines.

• 2:22:07Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:22:07Speaker 03

  At Huntsville. That was where they tested all the F1s at.

• 2:22:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:22:11Speaker 03

  They blew up lots of engines. The shuttle blew up lots and lots of shuttle engines. They, they, they almost gave up on that engine before they got it working.

• 2:22:18Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:22:20Speaker 03

  Lots of rockets blow up, lots of, lots of rocket engines blow up. They've had, they had lots of fuel tank failures. They had lots of, there's, there's lots of components in a rocket and they're all tested independently and you don't see the failures because they solve them.

• 2:22:34Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:22:34Speaker 03

  The only time you see the, the assembly is when everything is actually coming together.

• 2:22:39Danny Jones?

  So why don't you think that we've been able to go back to the mood since Apollo?

• 2:22:43Speaker 03

  We haven't wanted to. Bad enough.

• 2:22:46Speaker 04

  We, we had 10% of the federal budget back then. Now we have one tenth of 1%.

• 2:22:49Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:22:50Speaker 04

  It's a different game now.

• 2:22:53Speaker 03

  Plus, you just, it's a mission. The Saturn V was-

• 2:22:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah, but we've been talking about going back to the moon for so long.

• 2:22:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, but the people want to go back to the moon. That doesn't mean the governments want to go back to the moon.

• 2:23:03Danny Jones?

  Well, presidents have been saying it since, well, since who?

• 2:23:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. Again, there hasn't been enough will to go back to the moon. There just hasn't.

• 2:23:10Speaker 04

  But the Artemis program has a lot of momentum now. We went around the moon a few months ago. So that's, that's the first step. It's a huge step.

• 2:23:18Speaker 03

  I had 10 years in the-

• 2:23:19Speaker 04

  But the next, yeah, but they're ambitious. So Isaacman is going to be on point with this. They're going to go into low Earth orbit. They're going to do some mating, demating procedures in low Earth orbit. Just kind of what we did for the Galileo program.

• 2:23:32Danny Jones?

  The next one, they're going to go into low or-

• 2:23:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna go up and they're gonna check out transfer and stuff and fuel. I don't know, they're doing fueling next time? Yeah, they're gonna do fueling thing. Because the new generation of rockets are, they have a different mission. Their mission isn't go camp on the moon at all cost and we hope we get the astronauts back. That's the old mission. Okay? And that's why I said those were the bravest guys in the world.

• 2:23:57Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:23:58Speaker 03

  Total respect. The new mission is, we expect to get the guys back.

• 2:24:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:03Speaker 03

  And the gals. I don't want to limit it. We expect to get everybody back and we're not going to kill any of the ground crew either. And we want to do this cost effectively. So we want to get some of the rocket back, if not all of the rocket back. And we want to be able to do this on a continuous basis. These are very different launch parameters, very different goals. Okay? This is a very different economy. As Dr. Charles mentioned, there's about a hundredth as many people working on these programs as there was. Okay? It's one thing, it's like you want to build a pyramid. Okay, go get the entire country interested in building a pyramid. And you can build one.

• 2:24:43Danny Jones?

  Not just a couple of YouTubers.

• 2:24:44Speaker 03

  Now, let's wait, let's wait a thousand years and let's build another pyramid. Oh, but we want to do this with one construction company, working with, you know, one tenth of one percent of the resources that we had the first time.

• 2:24:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:24:59Speaker 03

  The technology has accelerated. There's, there is no, there's no comparing a shuttle RS45 engine to the third stage, the S3 engine. There's just no comparing it. The S3 engine was a go-getter. It maybe had an ISP of somewhere around 300. The RS45 engine, which was in the shuttle, which is probably 10 years later, had a, had an ISP of around 450. That's an enormous amount better efficiency. Okay?

• 2:25:33Speaker 03

  The, the new engines that burn, what are they, methylox? Methan, methane oxygen. These engines are ISPing within like 1% of their maximum capability. These are incredibly efficient engines. This is amazing. They optimized it for a different goal.

• 2:25:55Speaker 04

  I think the, the difference now is not just the government going, is part of the Artemis program. They've, they've brought in industry. They've brought in Elon Musk to help, Jeff Bezos to help. All these other aerospace companies are helping and other countries are helping.

• 2:26:07Danny Jones?

  And Elon recently pulled back on his ambitions to go to Mars and said-

• 2:26:10Speaker 04

  Just to help the Artemis program.

• 2:26:12Danny Jones?

  Moon first.

• 2:26:12Speaker 04

  Just to help the Artemis program.

• 2:26:14Speaker 03

  Believe that was so that they could accelerate the lunar program.

• 2:26:17Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:26:17Speaker 03

  And if you, if, um-

• 2:26:19Danny Jones?

  Because he said he doesn't know if we're going to make Mars in his lifetime.

• 2:26:21Speaker 03

  If you look at it though, the step from Mars, the step from Earth to Mars is big. The step from Earth to moon is smaller, significantly smaller. And you can learn almost everything you need to learn if you stay with chemical rocketry. If you jump to a new technology base, put the moon back on, put, put, put Mars back on the table. Put Jupiter on the table. Put Saturn's moons on the table. Because you don't need to learn how to refuel in space. You don't need to have 40 launches to pack enough fuel.

• 2:26:58Danny Jones?

  With this technology.

• 2:26:58Speaker 03

  With our technology.

• 2:26:59Danny Jones?

  Of course.

• 2:27:00Speaker 03

  It's a whole new learning game.

• 2:27:01Danny Jones?

  And also if you're, what, what about if you're using the moon as a launch point to go to Mars instead of the Earth? Now you're not having to contend with Earth's gravity anymore.

• 2:27:10Speaker 03

  Exactly. We are, we are advertising right now about 0.5 Earth unity. In other words, we can generate about half of the thrust that's needed to, to pick a rocket ship up off the Earth. But when you look at lunar gravity, that's about two and a half times lunar unity. So we have-

• 2:27:31Danny Jones?

  Gravity, right?

• 2:27:31Speaker 03

  It's one, it's one sixth.

• 2:27:33Danny Jones?

  One sixth, sorry.

• 2:27:34Speaker 03

  One sixth gravity. But we have, we have a much, much greater margin for success coming off the moon.

• 2:27:41Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:27:42Speaker 03

  And then going to Mars. If we can do 0.5 Earth gravity and Mars is only 0.38, we can, we can take off of Mars too. We can leave Mars and come back. Okay? And again, you know, I'm not wearing diapers. So.

• 2:27:58Danny Jones?

  You're not going, you're not, you're not volunteering?

• 2:28:00Speaker 03

  No, I'm not, I'm not volunteering.

• 2:28:03Danny Jones?

  Use your technology.

• 2:28:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. I want, I want three and a half days. You know, I damn near hold my breath for three and a half days.

• 2:28:10Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:28:11Speaker 03

  So, you know, it's like, do you have an ECLIS system that's good for nine months?

• 2:28:15Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:28:15Speaker 03

  That ain't no joke. That's an environmental control life support system that can run nine months, closed loop. What do you do with the carbon dioxide? What are you going to, you're going to pack a thousand tons of, of carbon dioxide absorber on? You're gonna, you're gonna, you know, what do you, literally. I spent, I spent a lot of years in, in the ECLIS game. And it's terrible. It's terrible. You know, three and a half days? Again, you can damn near hold your breath.

• 2:28:41Danny Jones?

  But, yeah, no, it's just astonishing though that, you know, out of how many launches that were supposed to go to the moon, what was it? Seven? Was it seven launches for the Apollo programs? And then six, six out of seven actually landed? Is that right?

• 2:28:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:28:58Danny Jones?

  Or was it seven out of eight or something like that? Like the success rate was, was, was amazing.

• 2:29:02Speaker 03

  I think we landed six and we sent-

• 2:29:05Danny Jones?

  We sent seven, we landed six.

• 2:29:07Speaker 03

  It, it, it was incredible.

• 2:29:08Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:09Speaker 03

  But again, it was the same design that they got working. They didn't change anything. They didn't make the rocket twice as good. They didn't, they didn't, they slowly began to remove from, in between the stages, there were, there were giant rings about six feet high. And on those rings were mounted telemetry and, uh, test equipment and recording and cameras and all kinds of nonsense.

• 2:29:36Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:29:37Speaker 03

  They, after the first launch and after the first landing, they said, okay, maybe we don't need to have all of this. So they take some weight off and that could put some more throw weight to the moon. By the time they got to the last landing on the moon, they had removed something like four tons of materials from the, from the first and second stages so that they could, you know, send a car to the moon and send, and bring back a thousand pounds of moon rock or something silly like that. Those are, those are tiny iterative changes toward a goal. They didn't turn around and say, hey, we want to get back the first stage of the Saturn V. Okay. Do you want to get it back from the bottom of the ocean or you want it to come land back on the launch pad?

• 2:30:23Speaker 03

  They didn't say that. They said, let's take a little more weight out so we have a little more throw weight to the moon. Same basic mission. Let's give the guys three days on the moon instead of four hours or something. Okay? These are tiny incremental improvements in a system. Those you can do. It's, it's not amazing that we, we got six out of seven tries. It's a testament to, they tested them 10,000 times before they sent the guys up there.

• 2:30:50Danny Jones?

  Right. It's just amazing that it happened at that, at that point in, in history, you know, that, that long ago. And we haven't been able to come close since, you know, with all the advancements of technology in every other field, right? You know, except for that one. That's the one that seemed to go backwards.

• 2:31:08Speaker 03

  I spent 25 years working on the shuttle program. That was a pretty amazing flying machine.

• 2:31:11Danny Jones?

  Didn't we use the same shuttle engines for this Artemis launch?

• 2:31:15Speaker 03

  It is the same liquid engines.

• 2:31:17Danny Jones?

  The same engine, right?

• 2:31:18Speaker 03

  RS45. They're actually, they're actually shuttle engines because they were the finest liquid oxygen engines ever made. They had the highest ISP, which is the efficiency factor of a rocket engine.

• 2:31:30Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:31:31Speaker 03

  They were a great design. They were stupid expensive. 10, 20 million bucks a piece or something like that. And they took forever to manufacture. And I believe they're starting to line back up for more Artemises, I believe.

• 2:31:44Speaker 04

  They're coming out, there're going to be two missions next year?

• 2:31:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I believe they're starting to line back up. But there's nothing-

• 2:31:50Danny Jones?

  I was so shocked when the one that happened recently happened because that one, that one had been getting pushed for so long.

• 2:31:56Speaker 03

  Yeah. Again, I put 10 years into the, the predecessor of the Artemis program.

• 2:32:02Speaker 04

  Missing the cadence for a very long time.

• 2:32:04Danny Jones?

  Are these, are these rockets they're using reusable or no? For the Artemis, they're not?

• 2:32:09Speaker 03

  Everything goes in the ocean.

• 2:32:11Danny Jones?

  Everything goes in-

• 2:32:11Speaker 03

  The only thing they get back are the people and the little, um, and the Orion-

• 2:32:17Speaker 04

  Capsule.

• 2:32:17Speaker 03

  Capsule, and it's not reusable. I, I think it, theoretically it is.

• 2:32:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:22Speaker 03

  I worked on the building where they reservice it. And I don't think, and I know the heat shield's not.

• 2:32:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:32:29Speaker 03

  And I don't believe the capsule is, but-

• 2:32:32Danny Jones?

  Yeah, my, my, my best argument for that, what I just explained, why we haven't been back, is that it doesn't make, it's not practical to send people to the moon or to Mars when we can send robots and drones there to do the job just as good as any human being could do. It's just too dangerous.

• 2:32:50Speaker 03

  Again, that's a great idea.

• 2:32:52Danny Jones?

  The Apollo missions were just a flex. That we were just trying to, we were just trying to beat the Russians to the moon. That's all we were trying to do. We're trying to be the number one to put people on the moon. It was just a, it was a publicity stunt.

• 2:33:06Speaker 03

  You were completely right. And it, it was, it was a brilliant tactical motion. It, it showed that we had not only caught up to the Russians, because they were way ahead of us before that. They, you know, they did the first orbit. They did the first, whatever, the first dog, the first Sputnik thing. They, they were way ahead of us. We caught up. Then we, then we went past them. They put the first lunar rover on the, on the moon. It was a little nuclear powered tank. But we caught up to them and we passed them and then planetary, we surpassed them. We did the Mars programs. I don't think we've done anything on Venus, so they were ahead of us on the Venus landings.

• 2:33:46Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:33:47Speaker 03

  But yeah, it was, it was another extension of the Cold War, I believe.

• 2:33:51Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:33:51Speaker 03

  And it's been my opinion that NASA has been a ping pong ball of the political scheme forever. They were born of ping pong ball. There was nothing wrong with NACA. It was, it was making airplane wings and doing great. And then they said, well, we need to have something that does space because you know, the, the godless, you know, commies are going to take space from us.

• 2:34:14Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:34:14Speaker 03

  So they created NASA and it was a ping pong ball of politics ever since. They cut the budgets, they didn't spend the budget. They give them a mission, they cancel the mission. They tell them to produce hardware that is technologically the bleeding edge. Then they cut, then they, then they slice the teams up and they come in and they rearrange the, the, what they want them to do. It's terrible. It's not how you build a rocket.

• 2:34:40Danny Jones?

  How much technology, if any, do you think NASA has that it's keeping secret? Think it's possible? I mean, I know it's, you know, it's kind of a, you know, you're technically employed by them, but if you could speculate.

• 2:34:51Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, we're, we're public, you know, we're, you know, we've served the public, right? So every time we have a new technology, we have to report it.

• 2:34:58Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:34:58Speaker 04

  So we have a new technology reporting.

• 2:35:01Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:35:02Speaker 04

  And we put it out there, we want to report it because then we could maybe get it patented and get it licensed and, and then we can benefit from it. The employees benefit. It's not like a company where the companies benefit.

• 2:35:14Danny Jones?

  Have you heard of the story of Gary McKinnon that got the hacker guy who hacked NASA?

• 2:35:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, I heard him. He's living in England or whatever.

• 2:35:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he, he, they tried, the US tried to extradite him back to the US to put him in prison for 80 years because he, when he was a kid, he did some like hacking stuff. And he hacked, tried hacking the Pentagon and ended up getting into NASA. And he found some image of this Tic Tac object floating in outer earth orbit. And it was referring to, it was like a document that was referring to non-terrestrial officers or something crazy like this. And as soon as he saw the thing with his, I mean, obviously he can't prove it, but this is what he said. And we know for a fact the US threw everything but the kitchen sink at this guy to try to get him to come here so they could put him in prison.

• 2:36:00Danny Jones?

  And you know, it's crazy that he described the cigar shaped, like white metallic object and on a NASA database.

• 2:36:09Speaker 03

  Dude, nobody believes we're real and we don't follow the UFO crazy stuff. You want us to speculate on it?

• 2:36:20Speaker 04

  I, I heard all these stories, I can't verify any, any of these things, you know, NASA has people that go in and erase images before they give them to the public.

• 2:36:29Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:36:29Speaker 04

  You know? I don't know if that's real. I just don't, you know, when I just, we just had a mission to the moon, right? We landed our payload on the moon, the electrodynamic dust shield that lifts, removes dust from surfaces. As part of the Firefly payload last year.

• 2:36:46Speaker 03

  He invented that by the way.

• 2:36:47Speaker 04

  And then, you know, we had, companies take images, they take high definition movies of the moon and they'll, they give them out. So we don't, you know, NASA doesn't control a lot of that. Maybe they did a long time ago, but I don't think they control it now. So I think companies can easily take super high definition, you know, videos of the moon and everything and share them. It would be a massive conspiracy if there was giants, buildings on the moon and all these structures and all that stuff.

• 2:37:14Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's another crazy one too.

• 2:37:16Speaker 04

  That's another crazy one.

• 2:37:16Danny Jones?

  Stories about that.

• 2:37:18Speaker 04

  But the imagery that, that comes out, not just in America, but the companies in America, Chinese don't see anything like that.

• 2:37:25Danny Jones?

  Oh, man. There's this dude who allegedly was in charge of mapping the moon for the Apollo missions. And he worked for NASA and his name was Hal Povenmire. Have you heard of this name before?

• 2:37:39Speaker 04

  No.

• 2:37:40Danny Jones?

  Never heard of Hal Povenmire?

• 2:37:43Danny Jones?

  So I heard that this guy worked for NASA and he, he allegedly like mapped the moon and he told somebody that there was like crazy structures, like ancient looking structures on the moon.

• 2:37:53Speaker 04

  I've heard of that too.

• 2:37:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And there's, there's other people that have talked about that too. There's other people that, you know, stories that are unverifiable about that, but it's just interesting, you know?

• 2:38:01Speaker 04

  It's interesting where these, these stories come from.

• 2:38:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:04Speaker 03

  All the reason.

• 2:38:05Speaker 04

  Cannons on the moon.

• 2:38:07Danny Jones?

  Cannons?

• 2:38:07Speaker 04

  Cannons.

• 2:38:08Danny Jones?

  I haven't heard of that.

• 2:38:08Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:38:09Danny Jones?

  I did see something, I did see something a couple of years ago of the head of NASA talking in front of Congress or being asked, asked about

• 2:38:18Danny Jones?

  exploring the dark side of the moon. And the congressman was, he was grilling the head of NASA, one of the previous heads of NASA. And he was like, the Chinese said that they're actively trying to figure out what's on the dark, do studies on the dark side of the moon. And he's like, why aren't you doing that? He's like, oh, let them do it. We have no interest in that.

• 2:38:39Speaker 03

  You do know there is no dark side of the moon, right?

• 2:38:42Danny Jones?

  Well, what I'm saying is that's what I mean. The side that's not facing the moon.

• 2:38:47Speaker 03

  Cause you know, there's so many people out there that think the world's flat and whatever, all the crazy nonsense.

• 2:38:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah. The, the same side of the moon that's constantly facing away from earth is what I meant by that.

• 2:38:56Speaker 04

  We have plenty of satellites that map all that.

• 2:38:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:38:59Speaker 04

  So that's not.

• 2:39:00Speaker 03

  The lunar explorer was able to take pictures all the way down to the pole that was laying on the ground that the flag used to be on.

• 2:39:09Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:39:09Speaker 03

  So, and they've mapped the entire moon 20 times over. Yeah. So they've literally mapped the moon 20 times over. And they can see things, they can see a, a four foot high pole or whatever, laying on its, laying down on its side and all the little footprints around it. If you're hiding a city or cannons or something on the moon, you're doing really good. You're really, really good at that.

• 2:39:37Speaker 04

  There's definitely some, a lot of high definition video of, of the moon.

• 2:39:39Danny Jones?

  Right. Have we seen high definition footage of the, of the opposite side of the moon?

• 2:39:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:39:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, we have.

• 2:39:45Speaker 04

  It's very well mapped.

• 2:39:46Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. Publicly?

• 2:39:48Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 2:39:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:39:49Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:39:50Speaker 03

  All of NASA's, all of NASA's imagery is public.

• 2:39:52Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 2:39:52Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 2:39:53Speaker 04

  There's a lunar planetary institute, lunar planetary science institute.

• 2:39:57Speaker 03

  It's like saying all of the Hubble raw data is publicly available. There's, I don't know, 50,000 gigabytes of Hubble data that you can, you can go download it, any piece you want. But there's, you know, 50,000 gigabytes of it.

• 2:40:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's, that's the hard thing is.

• 2:40:15Danny Jones?

  You know what's crazy is they, I, I learned from an astrophysicist recently, he was saying that all of the, the highest powered telescopes that we have at the observatories, whenever they have to, I guess they have to process the images that the telescopes produce, they have to pass through the Pentagon before they can be released publicly.

• 2:40:38Speaker 03

  I've never heard that.

• 2:40:39Danny Jones?

  Chachi butia, Steve. Find the source.

• 2:40:43Speaker 03

  I've never done.

• 2:40:44Danny Jones?

  This was a, like a New York Times article, I think it was.

• 2:40:46Speaker 03

  I've never done professional astrophotography, but I did 30 years of amateur deep sky astrophotography. 10 of it with that monster of a, of a, of that telescope that I go to next one. 10 of it with that monster. I have thousands of deep sky astrophotographs. Of those thousands, I have one that, and, and I'm like, okay, I don't know what that is. But it sure looks like a meteor.

• 2:41:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:18Speaker 03

  One out of thousands. Okay. And I did deep sky astrophotography for real for 20 plus years.

• 2:41:27Danny Jones?

  Never saw anything that, that just like made you more curious or anything like that?

• 2:41:32Speaker 03

  And I had big boy toys.

• 2:41:33Danny Jones?

  And you're not interested in it whatsoever?

• 2:41:36Speaker 03

  In what?

• 2:41:37Danny Jones?

  Like the, like the things flying around that could not be explained or anomalous.

• 2:41:41Speaker 03

  I never saw one.

• 2:41:42Danny Jones?

  Just never saw one.

• 2:41:43Speaker 03

  I saw plenty of stuff that belongs up there.

• 2:41:46Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:41:46Speaker 03

  And, you know, took some fairly decent pictures of it. By today's standards, they're, they're jokes, but you know, technology has gotten so amazing.

• 2:41:56Danny Jones?

  I feel like most people that report seeing weird things in the sky, they always seem to be near like military bases or air force bases, things like that, you know, like there's lots of stories.

• 2:42:08Speaker 03

  Maybe.

• 2:42:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I've seen weird things. But I don't know about taking images and, you know, giving it to someone first before you release them kind of thing.

• 2:42:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Well, I'd imagine, I mean, you guys are, you guys are right there in Titusville. There's a lot of crazy stuff, military going on there and space stuff going on there.

• 2:42:28Speaker 03

  It's, it's mostly civilian. I mean, they, they haven't, they haven't thrown anything military.

• 2:42:32Danny Jones?

  There's a huge air force base over there, right on, right near Melbourne. I used to surf behind all the time. Patrick's Air Force Base. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:42:38Speaker 03

  Patrick Space Force Base.

• 2:42:40Danny Jones?

  It's Space Force Base?

• 2:42:42Speaker 03

  Of course it is.

• 2:42:42Danny Jones?

  I thought it was air force base.

• 2:42:43Speaker 03

  It was.

• 2:42:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, that's when I used to know it, when it was air force base. And they were, I think they're doing a lot of work with Northrop Grumman there too. Like there's a, there's a lot of, uh.

• 2:42:53Speaker 03

  There's a large contingent.

• 2:42:54Danny Jones?

  I've heard, I know somebody who used to work.

• 2:42:55Speaker 03

  There's a very large contingent of Northrop, Northrop Grumman down in Melbourne and down in Palm Bay. And, um, um, most of the big aerospace companies are moving out of wherever they are and setting up shop within 20 miles of the Kennedy Space Center.

• 2:43:14Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 2:43:14Speaker 03

  We've got Lockheed Martin bringing the fleet ballistic missile force to Titusville.

• 2:43:21Danny Jones?

  I read about that.

• 2:43:22Speaker 03

  And that's, that's great. I mean, that, that, that moves more space amazement and space technology into an area that is becoming the hub of space research and space launch capabilities. That's why we're there. The world's first warp drive company.

• 2:43:39Danny Jones?

  That's amazing.

• 2:43:40Speaker 03

  Shameless plug.

• 2:43:41Danny Jones?

  Yeah, no, I imagine that there's got to be all kinds of crazy stuff going on, on the west coast or on the east coast of, of Florida. You know, stuff that could not be explained that people would be seeing in the sky.

• 2:43:51Speaker 03

  So the short and long of it is there's lots of stuff up in the sky.

• 2:43:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:43:55Speaker 03

  Some of it you can readily figure out what it is. Some of it turns out to be reflections. Some of it, who knows, might be unidentifiable, cool stuff. Let's get up there and find out.

• 2:44:04Danny Jones?

  Me and Steve saw something actually, right off the coast, over on Indian Rocks Beach on the west coast over here. About two years ago, we had a gentleman come out, came on the podcast and he brought us out to the beach. And we sat there and we stared at the sky for like two hours. First of all, that's the first disclaimer is I've never stared at the sky for two hours at night.

• 2:44:27Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 2:44:28Danny Jones?

  So we sat out there and Steve brought his camera and we were staring at the sky, waiting for some orbs to pop up or some anomalous lights to pop up. And we could see that, we got used to the airplane traffic, right? We saw all the airplane traffic. We saw the planes that were landing in Clearwater. We knew the planes that were landing in Tampa. They all had the lights. It was easy to distinguish the planes. We could see the boats on the water with the lights.

• 2:44:51Speaker 04

  And at one point, off the horizon, this orb of light pops up off the horizon, gets and starts move like goes, it goes like, imagine this table is the horizon. It goes like this, and then starts going like this.

• 2:45:07Danny Jones?

  One, one, one went straight up and then fizzled out.

• 2:45:10Speaker 04

  Really, really bright. And another orb pops up and starts going the opposite way.

• 2:45:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 2:45:15Speaker 04

  And then fizzles out. And I had never seen anything. It was not an airplane. There's no way that was an airplane.

• 2:45:21Danny Jones?

  I have the video on my desktop.

• 2:45:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, check this out.

• 2:45:25Danny Jones?

  So to set up for people watching or you guys too. So this right here is the horizon.

• 2:45:32Speaker 04

  Right there. See that?

• 2:45:33Danny Jones?

  And then, of course, you'll, you'll see planes. This right up here is a plane and I don't remember what this is, but you'll see it pop up right around here.

• 2:45:43Speaker 04

  So that was a plane flashing.

• 2:45:47Danny Jones?

  That is.

• 2:45:47Speaker 04

  Lot right off the horizon. See that?

• 2:45:49Danny Jones?

  It's not red. Was it red?

• 2:45:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. Watch.

• 2:45:55Danny Jones?

  It goes up and fizzles out.

• 2:45:59Speaker 04

  Now it starts moving to the right. You can see it moving past.

• 2:46:02Danny Jones?

  One appears on the top and moves to the left.

• 2:46:05Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. Now watch, it'll just disappear.

• 2:46:08Danny Jones?

  And then it gets brighter and then it disappears.

• 2:46:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, that one gets super bright.

• 2:46:15Danny Jones?

  We saw that a few times.

• 2:46:16Speaker 04

  Look how bright that thing gets.

• 2:46:18Danny Jones?

  Brighter than the plane and it's off the horizon. That plane is, I don't know how far the plane is.

• 2:46:26Speaker 04

  And then it goes away, right?

• 2:46:29Danny Jones?

  It just disappears. Yeah.

• 2:46:31Speaker 04

  Wasn't a boat, wasn't a plane. I don't know how to explain it. It's the first time I've ever seen anything like that.

• 2:46:38Danny Jones?

  That's interesting.

• 2:46:39Speaker 04

  I told Jesse about my experience with those things. Something similar to that.

• 2:46:43Danny Jones?

  Things look like?

• 2:46:44Speaker 04

  Oh, hell, yeah.

• 2:46:46Danny Jones?

  I wish I had known this before.

• 2:46:47Speaker 04

  Offshore?

• 2:46:48Danny Jones?

  Hooked up with me.

• 2:46:49Speaker 04

  It was about, I would say, three miles offshore.

• 2:46:53Speaker 04

  I don't know if you watched that podcast that I did with him. I talked about it. I don't know if he, I don't know if he aired it or not, but it was weird.

• 2:46:59Danny Jones?

  And I saw it on thing.

• 2:47:00Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:47:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, my wife went out there to the beach like we always do at night, just hanging out.

• 2:47:06Danny Jones?

  What beach?

• 2:47:07Speaker 04

  This would have been Cocoa Beach.

• 2:47:10Danny Jones?

  Cocoa Beach. Okay.

• 2:47:11Speaker 04

  Just South Cocoa Beach.

• 2:47:12Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:47:12Speaker 04

  Just north of Patrick.

• 2:47:14Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:47:15Speaker 04

  And we go out there all the time and we went out there and I'm going to say it's like nine 30, 10 o'clock at night, something. There's not a lot of people on the beach, if any. And we see a light three miles away and it's get, you know, it's pretty still, kind of like that. It comes up and gets real bright. It gets real dim. It gets real bright, gets real dim. It's not, it's not doing anything. It's just getting bright and getting dim. It's undulating. It's kind of just getting bright and dim. Like, that's weird. It's just a weird boat doing something.

• 2:47:44Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:47:45Speaker 04

  I don't know what it's doing.

• 2:47:46Danny Jones?

  No noise or nothing?

• 2:47:47Speaker 04

  No, but then it gets real bright. Like, oh my God, nuclear bomb went off bright.

• 2:47:54Danny Jones?

  What?

• 2:47:55Speaker 04

  It got so bright, it lit up the whole beach. As far as the eye could see, it made shadows of us against the buildings behind us. As far as I, and we looked left and right. We couldn't see anyone else on the beach and this giant explosion out there. I said, oh my God, we got to call somebody. And Janice is like, well, it's the Air Force Base. They'll, they'll come out soon or they'll come out to check it out. And sure enough, within five minutes or so, a couple of helicopters went out and maybe one or two helicopters went out, hovered right over the damn thing.

• 2:48:24Danny Jones?

  Really? While it was still lit up?

• 2:48:25Speaker 04

  It got dimmer.

• 2:48:26Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:48:27Speaker 04

  But it was still there doing a little undulating thing. Got real dim. I'm like, it must have, maybe it's a shot of a flare. I don't know what it was, but it was so bright, much brighter than a flare would be. Lit up the whole beach and like three miles away. A flare would not light up our whole beach.

• 2:48:41Danny Jones?

  No, not like that. Casting shadows.

• 2:48:43Speaker 04

  It looked like a giant nuclear weapon. It wasn't a mushroom cloud with it, but it was just the brightness of it. And and we were like, this is weird. So the helicopter hung over for a few minutes and then just went back, went back and the light was still there. I'm like, are they gonna rescue these people? Are they gonna send boats? So they're gonna do something? Anything. I don't know what. So we sat there, kept watching. It's about 10, 15 minutes in later, the light started getting bigger. Started getting closer.

• 2:49:15Speaker 04

  So we're like, oh, that's weird. And Janice and I were still looking and, and, you know, it's, it's a light. It's, it's undulating. It's going bright, getting dim, getting bright, getting dim. It's getting closer. Now it's two miles offshore.

• 2:49:30Speaker 04

  Then it was a mile offshore.

• 2:49:35Speaker 04

  And then it got, then it gets freaky. Now.

• 2:49:39Danny Jones?

  Like directly, if you guys are, if you're facing the Atlantic Ocean directly off the beach from you?

• 2:49:45Speaker 04

  Came right towards us. It did a beeline for us. And, you know, it didn't go super fast, but it was moving fast enough that we can tell that it was coming towards us. It certainly looked like it did initially, and then we knew it was definitely coming towards us when it got a mile, half mile offshore. And then it got about a third of a mile offshore and then it split into five or six lights.

• 2:50:08Speaker 04

  And then it got closer. This is the crazy thing.

• 2:50:11Danny Jones?

  Closer than a quarter mile?

• 2:50:12Speaker 04

  Oh, man, this, this is super close. These things were like the size of like a basketball. I don't know. They weren't very big.

• 2:50:19Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:50:19Speaker 04

  But they were very close. They were just where the waves started breaking. Like, oh my God, like 200 feet out, maybe.

• 2:50:27Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:50:28Speaker 04

  Something like that.

• 2:50:29Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:50:30Speaker 04

  And they went and rotated. These five lights, five or six lights went like bicycle spokes into the water, halfway out of the water, halfway into the water. And they just kept doing this. And it was like the freakiest thing. I don't know what the hell it was. So we were walking and we were walking away. Like, this is too close. So we, we already started high tailing it north. So we were like, we're gonna walk and it followed us. Do, do, do. Kept getting closer.

• 2:50:57Danny Jones?

  While it was doing the spinning?

• 2:50:58Speaker 04

  While I was doing the spinning, the spokes in the water coming back out. And I'm like, there's no one on the beach. No one can see this. And so it got to the point where we started getting scared because we couldn't outrun this thing. This thing just came from three miles over here. And this is 45 minutes in. This is about way more than a half an hour, 35 minutes of this experience. And like, this thing's not going away. So I knew my little alien tricks because I studied them for a long time. There was a kid, always followed this phenomenon just for fun. Like just close your eyes and just tell it to go away. And that's what I did. So I just said, Janice, I'm just gonna tell it to go away. Cause when you get scared, it knows. And it went away after about 45 minutes.

• 2:51:38Speaker 04

  So it didn't get any closer. Once the waves started breaking, but it did not go away. It wouldn't have gone away if I didn't tell it to. I don't think it would have gone away unless I told it to.

• 2:51:47Danny Jones?

  It was kind of just completely gone after that.

• 2:51:49Speaker 04

  It was completely gone after that. Just it did the wave thing into the, into the water and didn't come back out.

• 2:51:53Danny Jones?

  How long ago was this?

• 2:51:54Speaker 04

  2013, 2014, 2013.

• 2:51:59Speaker 04

  Been that long.

• 2:52:01Danny Jones?

  Whoa, dude.

• 2:52:03Speaker 04

  And it was a, it was a good half an hour, 45 minute thing. And I just, to this day, we were like, okay, this is gonna be on the news. There was a boat that exploded. I'm sure we weren't the only one to see this. There's hundreds of buildings and apartments and condos. Someone had to have seen this. We looked at the newspapers the next day, the next day, asked people that lived there. No, I didn't see nothing. It's like 10 o'clock at night. It's not like three in the morning. It's like 10, 11 o'clock at night. It wasn't even that late.

• 2:52:28Danny Jones?

  Your wife described it the same way you did. She definitely saw it too.

• 2:52:31Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. No, it was two of us. And we didn't go back to the beach right away after that.

• 2:52:39Speaker 04

  It wasn't, it was scary, but it was like, not super scary. But once it got a little bit too scary, told to go away and it went away. I don't know what it was. I don't really know. But I, I don't think it's super uncommon. Like Stephen Greer takes his folks and you know, Stephen Greer is.

• 2:52:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I know who he is.

• 2:52:56Speaker 04

  Whether you believe him or not, I know he does take a whole group of people down Vero Beach, about an hour south.

• 2:53:00Danny Jones?

  Yep.

• 2:53:01Speaker 04

  And they get the chairs and they sit up on the beach and they summon these lights. When they go, whenever two, three months, he takes a contingent of people and they just, they just sit on the beach and they say, you know, think happy thoughts and then his lights will come and then, and you'll see four, five, six lights will be on the horizon, just dancing. Do, do, do. Last 10, 15 minutes and go away. He does that all the time.

• 2:53:22Speaker 04

  Don't know what it is. There's a lot of cruise ships sightings, probably more popular or not.

• 2:53:27Danny Jones?

  That's a huge cruise ship port right there.

• 2:53:28Speaker 04

  There's a huge, yeah, Cape Canal is a huge port and there's a lot of sightings off of cruise ships of these same red, what you saw, what I saw, things following the cruise ships, like, like dolphins do.

• 2:53:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:53:40Speaker 04

  Following the cruise ships.

• 2:53:40Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:53:42Speaker 04

  People have that on video. No one knows what the heck it is. I don't think anyone knows what it is. I have no idea.

• 2:53:46Danny Jones?

  I wonder if those dudes in the helicopter knew what it was.

• 2:53:49Speaker 04

  Uh, they knew. They, they might know that it's there. I haven't, I'm just speculating what the military does. It's just like.

• 2:53:57Danny Jones?

  They have to be aware of it, obviously.

• 2:53:58Speaker 04

  Like, okay, they know what it's not. It's not the Russians. It's not the Chinese. So, okay, it's not them. We'll be fine. Let's go back. That's my guess. They know what it's not.

• 2:54:08Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:54:10Speaker 04

  That's all I know. But, um,

• 2:54:13Speaker 04

  it was a heck of an experience.

• 2:54:15Danny Jones?

  I can't imagine. I wouldn't have been able to stop thinking about that.

• 2:54:17Speaker 04

  I can't forget, but I, I believe you've seen this because I've seen these.

• 2:54:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's, you know, it's on video too. So it's like, I, that didn't just like haphazard me, haphazard, haphazardly happened to me. I went out searching it.

• 2:54:31Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 2:54:31Danny Jones?

  Like this just happened to you without asking for it to happen. Like we were begging, we were on the beach for two hours. This guy was saying he could do it.

• 2:54:38Speaker 04

  And I told my buddy about it. And I said, well, you could, you could try going and looking for yourself. So he went out with his family, make it two years later, three years later. He's Charlie. I saw the lights.

• 2:54:49Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 2:54:50Speaker 04

  He's like, yep. He's like, yeah, I saw them. Did, did you try to summon them? He said, oh, yeah. Did they follow you? Oh, no, I, I ran.

• 2:55:02Danny Jones?

  That's crazy, man. I wonder if it has something to do with that area on the, in the east coast of Florida.

• 2:55:08Speaker 04

  I don't know. I have no idea. I can't even speculate what the heck that is. I mean, even as close as they got, I mean, I could see how close they were.

• 2:55:17Danny Jones?

  No feelings associated, no, no other, no other sensory.

• 2:55:21Speaker 04

  You know, it just, it was almost like a, it was not communicating, but it was basically like, hi, hello.

• 2:55:30Danny Jones?

  Just friendly.

• 2:55:31Speaker 04

  Do you want to talk? Do you want, maybe get a little closer? You know, if I had to give it a voice. Okay, you're scared. I'm gonna go away. You know, and that was it.

• 2:55:39Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 2:55:40Speaker 04

  And that was everything. There was, I, I don't know what it was. I, I think, I don't know. I couldn't even speculate. There was no solid object. It wasn't a ball of light. It was really just weird. It wasn't like an, yeah, orb. I don't know what it was.

• 2:55:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:55:56Danny Jones?

  It's very strange. It's very strange.

• 2:55:58Speaker 04

  I don't, I couldn't comment on it.

• 2:55:59Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:56:00Speaker 04

  Don't ask me, I can't ask Drew to build that.

• 2:56:02Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:56:03Speaker 04

  I don't know where to begin, what that is.

• 2:56:05Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah, no, it's interesting too, that you, how you said like you closed your eyes and then went away because, you know, it just seems like there's, there's a, there's a consciousness aspect to all this stuff. That's just, it's hard to put your finger on. It's hard to weigh it and measure it and experiment with it. It's just.

• 2:56:20Speaker 04

  I mean, I, like I told you, I believed in telepathy because of the experiments I've done as a kid and continue to do. And I just tried it with these things and it seemed to work.

• 2:56:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:56:30Speaker 04

  That, that makes the most sense to me. Just to try, because we don't know the physics of telepathy, but there's something going on.

• 2:56:36Danny Jones?

  There's something there. I mean, if the government spent that, no, millions of dollars on those programs during the Cold War to experiment with that stuff, there must, there couldn't be nothing to it, right? There had to have been something.

• 2:56:45Speaker 04

  There's something. We don't understand it, but it's there. Just because it's.

• 2:56:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:56:49Speaker 04

  We don't understand, doesn't mean it's not there.

• 2:56:51Danny Jones?

  Exactly.

• 2:56:52Speaker 04

  Same thing with clairvoyants. Telekinesis, I don't think there's any proof of that. But, um, you know, telepathy and clairvoyants, I think there's something to it.

• 2:57:01Danny Jones?

  You know, it's funny enough, I had, I've heard of a guy named Dean Raden.

• 2:57:05Speaker 04

  Which one's that guy?

• 2:57:05Danny Jones?

  He's a CIA contractor scientist. Who's very much into studying this kind of stuff. And, um, anyways, he is like an expert on this stuff, on this telepathy, clairvoyant stuff, the stuff like the Stargate program stuff and all this. New, Uri Geller and all these people. And, uh, like, he was explaining how all of like the most, the brightest minds in, in science that he knew of. This was in the early 2000s, maybe late 90s.

• 2:57:40Danny Jones?

  In his field of what he was studying, they were getting contacted by Jeffrey Epstein to study this stuff. And he even got a request to talk to Jeffrey Epstein and ended up doing a 20 minute Skype call with him. And I was like, what happened? And he was like, he just asked me to tell him stories about spoon bending for 20 minutes.

• 2:58:00Speaker 04

  Weird.

• 2:58:00Danny Jones?

  You know?

• 2:58:02Speaker 03

  Very weird.

• 2:58:02Danny Jones?

  He was flying like top scientists in all kinds of fields.

• 2:58:06Speaker 04

  We were talking about that on the way here. The fascination Jeffrey Epstein had with scientists.

• 2:58:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah. He had lots of weird, you know, that's just something that have, I don't know, I don't know what it is, but there's something weird that happens with people that just have like an insane amount of money. That they just, maybe they get bored and they just start getting interested in stuff that, you know, is unconventional, but. He was definitely obsessed with, you know, gravity and, um, this kind of telekinesis stuff and telepathy. And they had a submarine. He was allegedly looking for like Atlantis and stuff like. Wild stuff. But, you know, talking to real scientists and trying to do real research on it, you know? Even working with the NSA, trying to figure out how to expand, you know, extend his lifespan using like code hacking and stuff like that.

• 2:58:55Danny Jones?

  It's wild. Twilight Zone stuff.

• 2:59:01Speaker 04

  Maybe one day we'll be rich, uh, trillionaires.

• 2:59:03Danny Jones?

  Well, when you have one of the guy, when you have a guy, the lesson here, the lesson here is when you have a guy like that, reach out to you to fund you. Make sure you make, you know, do an extensive background check on him. Make sure you guys have been arrested for, you know, any kind of crazy charges.

• 2:59:17Speaker 03

  The only background check I'm gonna run is, does this check clear?

• 2:59:22Danny Jones?

  Well, unfortunately, that's what all the other ones decided too.

• 2:59:24Speaker 03

  I want to build spaceships. I don't care what they want to do with them.

• 2:59:30Danny Jones?

  Well, you just got to make sure they haven't been caught up in any like, uh, international human trafficking rings.

• 2:59:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't want any part of that.

• 2:59:37Danny Jones?

  Well, guys, thank you so much for doing this. This has been, uh, a mind blowing conversation. And, uh, I'm really grateful for you guys spending the time to come over here and explain this stuff to me and to the audience. So.

• 2:59:50Speaker 04

  Thank you very much for having us. I think we both enjoyed this very much.

• 2:59:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:59:55Speaker 03

  So, so, and may I ask a personal question?

• 2:59:57Danny Jones?

  Of course.

• 2:59:58Speaker 03

  Do you think we're crazy or do you believe us?

• 3:00:00Danny Jones?

  No, no, I totally believe you guys.

• 3:00:02Speaker 03

  Okay, that's it. We don't have him on the team.

• 3:00:05Danny Jones?

  Give me a shirt, baby.

• 3:00:07Speaker 03

  We have him somewhere. We brought him.

• 3:00:09Speaker 04

  Oh, I got him. He gave him to me earlier.

• 3:00:11Danny Jones?

  Yeah, man. No, I think this is, I think this is fascinating stuff. And, um, you know, you guys obviously know your shit. You guys have, you know, very credentialed, legitimate people that are doing this kind of work. And, um, also at the same time, willing to talk about it publicly, which I feel like that's rare, very rare. So you guys are, uh, super important and I'm glad, I'm happy to help boost your signal as much as possible.

• 3:00:34Speaker 03

  That's awesome. Yeah, we, we, we love when people want to come and, and, and put their hands on the hardware. You know, we, it actually hands on, we're like, we'll run a test, we'll crack the chamber, pull the thing out, disassemble it, put it in their hands. And they're like, this is what was just tested? And like, yeah, you just saw it tested.

• 3:00:58Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:00:59Speaker 03

  You know, and because it, it, there's nothing to hide. If the thing works, it's going to work all the time. If it's, if it's phony, then you're, it's a parlor trick.

• 3:01:10Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:01:10Speaker 03

  Someone's going to be able to see through it.

• 3:01:12Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm. I totally agree, man. Um, tell people where they can learn more about your stuff. Do you guys have a website, social media, um, links or anything like that?

• 3:01:23Speaker 03

  We do.

• 3:01:24Speaker 04

  Did he change the website name?

• 3:01:26Speaker 03

  Uh, I don't know. It used to be.

• 3:01:30Danny Jones?

  Sorry, you can send it to me.

• 3:01:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:01:33Speaker 04

  We're going through an IT upgrade, okay, because we need it desperately.

• 3:01:36Danny Jones?

  Well, either way.

• 3:01:37Speaker 03

  None of us are IT literate.

• 3:01:39Danny Jones?

  I'll put all the links to the websites and stuff.

• 3:01:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:01:41Danny Jones?

  Show notes so people can find them.

• 3:01:42Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 3:01:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 3:01:42Speaker 04

  I found what you were talking about, Danny.

• 3:01:44Danny Jones?

  What'd you find, Steve? Let's see.

• 3:01:46Speaker 04

  Uh, it was reported in the Atlantic in the, the article.

• 3:01:50Danny Jones?

  Atlantic, that's what it was.

• 3:01:51Speaker 04

  When a telescope.

• 3:01:52Danny Jones?

  When a, okay, when a telescope is a national security risk. It concerns the Veracce Rubin Observatory, a federally funded telescope in Chile, uh, designed to repeatedly photograph enormous areas of the sky. Okay. And then what does it say about going through the Pentagon?

• 3:02:09Speaker 04

  Every 30 seconds it was, uh, had to be, uh, sent to a secure facility in California for some reason.

• 3:02:16Danny Jones?

  Huh.

• 3:02:18Danny Jones?

  So, okay, so small image cutouts that might show classified American satellites or spacecraft are withheld from the real time worldwide alert system. The rest of the data is released in approximately one minute. Okay. Um, the complete unredacted image is released 80 hours later, once the information is considered too old to reliably reveal the classified spacecraft's current location. That, okay, that's their explanation for why they do that. Still interesting.

• 3:02:48Speaker 03

  Yep. Wow. That's a lot of data.

• 3:02:50Danny Jones?

  Yeah, quite a bit.

• 3:02:51Speaker 03

  That's the largest, that's the largest camera on earth.

• 3:02:55Danny Jones?

  The one in Chile?

• 3:02:56Speaker 03

  On that telescope that they just came online. That's the largest camera. It's like

• 3:03:04Speaker 03

  130 terabytes per image.

• 3:03:08Danny Jones?

  Holy shit.

• 3:03:08Speaker 03

  It's, it's ridiculous. It's insane. Because they have like 2,500 cameras on their imaging system. And it scans, they found millions of, of asteroids.

• 3:03:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah, look at that.

• 3:03:23Speaker 03

  They found hundreds of thousands.

• 3:03:24Danny Jones?

  That's where they found those interstellar objects that Avi Loeb talks about. That thing, I believe.

• 3:03:28Speaker 03

  I mean, that's a super project. They're going to map the whole sky every eight months or something. And, and find like, you know, near earth. And I wanted to, I want to, I want to talk about just one last thing and then we'll go away.

• 3:03:43Danny Jones?

  No, we got plenty. We got all the time you need.

• 3:03:44Speaker 03

  Let's say you see something in the sky scary and you have three to six months to do something about it. It's coming at you. Like an asteroid. Okay. Not a planet killer, maybe not even a, a continent killer, a city killer. Okay. Something. What are you gonna do?

• 3:04:02Speaker 03

  Really? You call Ghostbusters?

• 3:04:03Danny Jones?

  You gotta shoot a nuke at it.

• 3:04:05Speaker 03

  No, that's not, that's not the answer to anything. The answer is have a plan and have some way to send a, a bunch of little thrusters that never have to turn off so that you can get out there in a couple of days. Put the thrusters on the object, turn them on, run, turn them on to full blast and push the thing out of the way.

• 3:04:28Speaker 03

  We're asteroid defense.

• 3:04:30Danny Jones?

  You think this could push an asteroid off its trajectory?

• 3:04:33Speaker 03

  Easily.

• 3:04:34Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 3:04:35Speaker 03

  Cause it's got, it, you know, how, how big's the asteroid? I don't know. Put a thousand of them on there.

• 3:04:39Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 3:04:40Speaker 03

  The thing is today in chemical rocketry, you'd, it could, it could take you a year to get to the thing. Two years to get to it. Well, by then it's a little bit late. Let's say the thing is gonna hit the earth in six months. With us, anything in the near, inside, inside the orbit of Mars is a couple of days to get to. Either side of the sun, we don't really care.

• 3:05:02Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 3:05:03Speaker 03

  So we offer.

• 3:05:05Danny Jones?

  Cause your engine doesn't stop running.

• 3:05:06Speaker 03

  Right, cause we offer a realistic way to one, get to where you're going. You know? Look at the problem, analyze what the solution is, and then execute the, the fix. You don't need to blow the thing up. You just need to move it a little bit.

• 3:05:22Danny Jones?

  Right. What is the conventional? Uh, way that they plan to do that? Like, isn't there like a conventional? Plan on how to deflect asteroids?

• 3:05:32Speaker 04

  Sometimes they put the.

• 3:05:33Speaker 03

  There is no real plan. They did some testing. They, they went to this little asteroid and they, and they slammed a, a, a puck of copper into it or something.

• 3:05:41Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 3:05:42Speaker 03

  And they changed the little asteroid, the little tiny asteroid, I mean, the things like the size of this room. They changed its orbit and that was great. They, they, they, they studied the results of it and it was amazing. It was great. But it took them like two years to get there.

• 3:05:55Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Oh, wow, really?

• 3:05:57Speaker 03

  And it was a stable. They knew exactly where the thing was and they planned, they planned a whole mission around it. What I'm saying is, you know, if they're out there looking, that observatory, that amazing observatory found like 20,000 new asteroids in its first, the first run. The first couple of hour run or something like that.

• 3:06:17Danny Jones?

  It's crazy.

• 3:06:17Speaker 03

  Okay, well, they're gonna run that thing. They're gonna find 20,000 asteroids a day forever. New ones.

• 3:06:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 3:06:23Speaker 03

  What if they find one they don't like? You know, we're saying, somebody take, somebody come believe us and let us show you how we can build something that might be really useful someday soon.

• 3:06:37Danny Jones?

  Totally.

• 3:06:38Speaker 03

  You know, because chemical rocketry ain't the answer.

• 3:06:41Danny Jones?

  You can send it out to one of those interstellar objects too. Just, just to look at that.

• 3:06:44Speaker 03

  I did the math.

• 3:06:45Speaker 04

  Wait for a nice.

• 3:06:46Speaker 03

  We could catch it.

• 3:06:46Speaker 04

  Billionaire.

• 3:06:47Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 3:06:47Speaker 03

  We up for about another two months, we could catch it.

• 3:06:51Danny Jones?

  That's amazing, you know, that the, this telescope.

• 3:06:54Speaker 04

  Oh, you got the.

• 3:06:55Danny Jones?

  These huge telescopes, since they've been brought online, they've already detected three.

• 3:06:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's us.

• 3:07:00Danny Jones?

  Oh, there's your, there's your website.

• 3:07:01Speaker 03

  Our website goes up and down.

• 3:07:02Danny Jones?

  Exoduspropulsion.space.

• 3:07:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, that sounds like it.

• 3:07:06Danny Jones?

  Fantastic.

• 3:07:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, we're not real good with that. That, that website's terrible.

• 3:07:10Danny Jones?

  We'll link it below.

• 3:07:10Speaker 03

  But it's the best we got. We're working on it.

• 3:07:13Danny Jones?

  It looks good to me, man.

• 3:07:13Speaker 03

  We're working on a lot of things and the website, we got a genius now on the team.

• 3:07:17Danny Jones?

  I love it.

• 3:07:17Speaker 03

  And he's gonna, like I said, you can go out to any one of those videos and one of them will show you how to build a thruster. I think the first one, picture, terrible picture of me, but um, uh, will show you how to build a thruster. They'll show you how to build this thruster right here. You can build this thruster. I think I used this in the example. And when you get done, um, it will reward you with working.

• 3:07:40Danny Jones?

  That's amazing, man. Well, we will link all this stuff below for folks. Thank you guys again. I very much appreciate it.

• 3:07:46Speaker 04

  It's been a lot of fun.

• 3:07:47Speaker 03

  It has been fun.

• 3:07:49Danny Jones?

  Good night, folks.

• 3:07:54Danny Jones?

  Check engine, ABS or maintenance light on? Take the guesswork out of your warning lights with O'Reilly Veriscan. The service is free and provides a report with solutions verified by ASE certified master technicians. And if you need help, we could recommend a shop for you. Ask for O'Reilly Veriscan today.