#324 - NASA Physicist Comes Clean on UFOs & Why We Can't Go Back to The Moon | Kevin Knuth

Watch every episode ad-free & uncensored on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Dr. Knuth Knuth is a former NASA research scientist, associate Professor in the Department of Physics at the University at Albany & the Editor-in-Chief of the journal Entropy. SPONSORS https://hexclad.com/danny - Find your forever cookware. Get 10% off HEXCLAD today! https://huel.com/danny - Use code DANNY & get 15% off HUEL today. https://whiterabbitenergy.com/?ref=DJP - Use code DJP for 20% off. EPISODE LINKS https://www.uapexpedition.org https://www.albany.edu/physics/faculty/kevin-knuth FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Finding new planets in the galaxy 08:10 - Why NASA doesn't care about the moon anymore 15:28 - The UFO-nuclear problem 19:29 - 1986 Japan air lines UFO sighting 28:50 - Why anti-gravity research is making NO progress 41:39 - Worldwide UFO research happening now 01:00:32 - The most ignored aspect of UAPs 01:10:24 - Alien time traveler theory 01:18:59 - Suspicious details about Roswell crash 01:33:10 - First hand reports from astronauts 01:40:46 - Why we stopped going to the moon 01:51:16 - Was there a lost civilization before us? 02:05:01 - Breakthrough nuclear technology Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:06Danny Jones?

  Kevin, thank you for coming, man.

• 1:08Speaker 03

  Wow, thank you for having me.

• 1:09Danny Jones?

  I think you're the first NASA scientist I've ever talked to.

• 1:13Speaker 03

  Wow, okay.

• 1:15Danny Jones?

  How did you get involved with NASA?

• 1:17Speaker 03

  How did I get involved with NASA? I had been... My PhD was in physics and I had done work in studying the dynamics of the human brain with response, in response to auditory stimulation. And I was studying magnetic fields generated by neurons. So magnetoencephalography. And I was interested in how to separate brain signals. When you record EEG by putting electrodes on the surface of the head, or doing magnetoencephalography, each detector picks up a mixture of signals. What you really want to know is what signals are coming from which different part of the

• 2:02Speaker 03

  brain, but you really can only record mixtures. So I'd worked on algorithms to separate mixed signals. And... And these were AI algorithms. This is in the late 90s before anybody heard of AI. I've been doing the AI for 30 years, but, but we didn't call it AI. They were machine learning algorithms, right? And so I was doing work in neuroscience, but my PhD, my original interests were originally in physics. And I got, I was at a neuroscience conference in DC and visited two of my friends who were married, an astrophysicist and an astronomer.

• 2:42Speaker 03

  And so I started collaborating with the, with our astronomer friend there. He was working at the Naval Research Lab at the, at the Observatory, Naval Research Observatory. And he was trying to develop a Fourier transform spectrometer to look for wobbling stars, basically be able to detect Doppler shifts of stars that are wobbling. So he could detect planets around other stars. This was before this was popular again. And he was having trouble, he developed his own instrument. He was having trouble with the data analysis and he explained what he was doing. And I had already done a lot of work with machine learning and mixed signals.

• 3:22Speaker 03

  And so we were just having dinner and, and I said, oh, no, no, you don't want to analyze it that way. That isn't going to work. Do it this way and explained how to do it. And he excitedly ran up to his computer up in his room after, after dinner and came down a half hour later and he goes, I coded it and it works. Oh my God. And so we ended up writing a paper together and so started redoing research together. And I went with him to keep Kitt Peak National Observatory to get images of planetary nebulae and studying things like this. And then by this time I heard of a job opening at NASA Ames in their Intelligent Systems Division.

• 4:04Speaker 03

  And I knew some of the people who worked in that area at NASA Ames. I said, we did similar work. And so I applied for that job. And that's all I got in to NASA.

• 4:15Danny Jones?

  And how long were you there for?

• 4:16Speaker 03

  For four years.

• 4:17Danny Jones?

  Four years. And whatever. So, so explain how the wobbling stars were able to help detect planets?

• 4:25Speaker 03

  Yeah. So as a planet orbits the star, the planet pulls on the star gravitationally. So the planet pulls the star when it's on this side, pulls it this way. And as it comes over here, the star wobbles to be toward the planet. So this, so they don't, the planet doesn't exactly orbit the star. They both orbit their center of mass. And so the center of mass isn't quite at the center of the star, because there's mass out here where the planet is. And so the star wobbles a little bit.

• 4:53Danny Jones?

  Oh, interesting.

• 4:54Speaker 03

  And so we, we still use that the Doppler Doppler shift technique to discover planets.

• 4:59Danny Jones?

  Once you got to NASA, what specifically were you doing? What specifically were you studying there or working on?

• 5:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, there I was working on studying planetary nebulae, which is what I had been doing with my astronomer friend, Arsinocheon. And we were trying to develop 3D models of what these nebulae look like. So these nebulae are clouds of gas that surround dying stars. So, you know, really big stars, when they, they die, they go into a supernova, they collapse and explode.

• 5:31Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 5:31Speaker 03

  Smaller ones like our sun will will collapse and then just basically it'll be blowed into a red giant phase. And then when it runs out of fuel, it'll collapse, start collapsing, and it'll just kind of puff off its outer atmosphere. And that'll form a nebula. And so we were studying these nebulae and trying to make three dimensional plots of them.

• 5:51Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 5:53Speaker 03

  It was a cool project. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. We would get Hubble images taken over five year periods. And you could actually see the nebulae getting bigger, which was pretty neat.

• 6:02Danny Jones?

  How far away was that star?

• 6:04Speaker 03

  Ah, well, there were multiple stars. So there, you know, there are many light years away, hundreds, thousands of light years away.

• 6:13Danny Jones?

  When you were at, I mean, when you're at NASA and you're working with all kinds of folks, I'm sure.

• 6:20Danny Jones?

  With, I'm sure there's multiple layers of discipline of people, whether scientists or researchers that are there.

• 6:29Danny Jones?

  Is there any like overt interest in this UFO topic?

• 6:34Speaker 03

  Not when I was there. When I was there, not at all. Um, you know, there wasn't any interest in it. Um, it was if you brought it up at all, and I, I wasn't even really interested in it at that point.

• 6:46Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 6:46Speaker 03

  But if I happened, if I happened to mention something about it, you know, everybody would scoff. No, that's just ridiculous. That's nonsense. We're NASA. We do real things.

• 6:55Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 6:55Speaker 03

  So, yeah, it wasn't, wasn't a topic of discussion.

• 6:58Danny Jones?

  Hmm. How much did you guys, uh, how much, um, attention did you guys pay to the, did you guys do anything with the moon or any studies of the moon or anything or?

• 7:06Speaker 03

  No, we didn't do any work with the moon missions. Um, those, cause those had happened in the 1960s.

• 7:12Danny Jones?

  Right. But I'm wondering if there was any like, any newer research that you guys were focusing on?

• 7:16Speaker 03

  Um, there were, I was there when we, um,

• 7:22Speaker 03

  when we started, when George W. Bush started, um, the plans for going back to the moon. And so they started talking about missions like that. And we did get a, we did write a proposal to develop, um, a system. We decided, um, to propose to develop a, a digital map for, um, explorers on the moon. So, cause you don't want astronauts getting lost, right?

• 7:48Danny Jones?

  Oh, yeah.

• 7:48Speaker 03

  They wander away from their, their car and you get lost.

• 7:53Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 7:53Speaker 03

  You're screwed. You know, when you run out of air. So you're in big trouble. So we were working on, we wanted to design a digital map that you could use on the moon. That would be like a

• 8:03Danny Jones?

  And you proposed this?

• 8:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, we proposed it. We didn't, we didn't get that grant. So we didn't do that.

• 8:07Danny Jones?

  How much would that have costs, costed? And what, what would go into that, doing something?

• 8:10Speaker 03

  Well, I don't know how much it would have made to make the map, but it would have been one of the kind of digital paper maps, kind of like the Kindles were made of at the time. Yeah.

• 8:18Danny Jones?

  Did you guys have any ideas of how it would be done? Like, did you have, uh?

• 8:22Speaker 03

  We had some, we had some plans for how it would be done. Yeah. We would use, um, geological surveys of the moon to use that to feed the map.

• 8:29Danny Jones?

  Would you send, uh, new little, like new satellites out there or anything like?

• 8:34Speaker 03

  We didn't have plans for that. We planned to use, um, data from the lunar confluence orbiter.

• 8:40Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. So you can use those orbiters and then you could use the 3D topography to create a 3D map that the astronauts would see. So they would have a map, like an overhead view along with a map of what you should be seeing if you're looking straight this way. And as you moved your position, you would change where you were looking. So you could actually map up to match terrain that you see visually with what was on the map.

• 9:05Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 9:05Speaker 03

  It's still a nice idea for a map.

• 9:07Danny Jones?

  Oh, it's incredible idea for a map. I would love to see something like that. It's just, I feel like with all of this talk about colonizing Mars and UFOs and interdimensional aliens, or there's no one gives a shit about the moon anymore. I feel like the moon's, the moon could do some love.

• 9:21Speaker 03

  I can't wait till we go back to the moon. I was, I was four years old when the first moon landing happened. So I remember it. I remember it. I remember. And I remember it because it was so exciting. And I think, you know, we were at my grandmother's house because she had a TV.

• 9:38Danny Jones?

  A little box.

• 9:39Speaker 03

  A little box that we could watch it on, yeah. And, you know, and I remember everybody telling me, Kevin, this is the most important thing that's ever happened. I remember being told that over and over. So I was amazed. But the thing that I, and it chokes me up when I think about it, because it really is pretty amazing.

• 9:55Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 9:56Speaker 03

  When we were leaving to go back to my parents' house, my dad was carrying me and we were walking down the steps of my grandma's house. And he stopped at the bottom of the steps and we looked up at the moon and he pointed up at the moon and he said, Kevin, there are people up there. And I remember thinking, wow, that's amazing. Now, when I, when I, when I think about it, I think that is amazing. That hasn't happened since. I mean,

• 10:18Danny Jones?

  Right. How crazy.

• 10:19Speaker 03

  People younger than me haven't never looked at the moon and thought there are people up there.

• 10:24Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 10:25Speaker 03

  That's an amazing thing to think.

• 10:26Danny Jones?

  Yeah, three hundred and something thousand miles away from here. It's such a, it's such a crazy feat. Yeah, sometimes I look up at the moon at night and I'd just be like, how, like, wow. But there's so, there's so many questions about the moon and it's such an interesting, just the, the, you know, the fact that we did that in the seventies and, and we haven't done it since. And, you know, it would just be so interesting to see if we could get people back on there and, and how, and what, you know, what we could possibly do. And what kind of, you know, I'm sure, I'm sure. You know, if we were to colonize other planets, we would probably want to use the moon as like a midway point or like a, a, a launch point.

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Yeah, you could certainly use it for, for a midway point or for construction or of space vehicles, all sorts of possibilities and for research, of course, too.

• 11:14Danny Jones?

  Right, right. Exactly. So when, at what point did you start to become so interested in this UFO topic? Because it doesn't seem like a lot of academic, proper academic folks are interested in these things.

• 11:27Speaker 03

  Not many. It's still, it's still a big handful at this point. You know, maybe 10, 10 proper academics. Yeah, it's not that many on that order.

• 11:36Danny Jones?

  Yeah. So what, and I know there, I mean, there's a variety of reasons that that doesn't happen, but what, what got you into it and what made you want to, you know, be so public about it?

• 11:47Speaker 03

  What got me into it was when I, it was an event that happened when I started graduate school. So I went to, I got my undergraduate degree in Wisconsin, University of Wisconsin in Oshkosh, the party school, not the big school. And, um, so I got my degree there, my bachelor's degree there. And I went to Montana State for my master's degree in Bozeman, Montana. And it was the first or second week of school there. So I just moved out to Montana. Montana. It's my first time living alone and, um, and away from home. And there was a cattle mutilation on a ranch near Bozeman where two cows were killed and surgically manipulated. And it was very bizarre. Um, and it was all over the news. There were UFO

• 12:32Speaker 03

  reports that night, many UFO reports to the sheriff's office. And so this was all over the TV news and it was aliens or Satanists were, but they were both worried about.

• 12:42Danny Jones?

  Or both.

• 12:44Speaker 03

  Or alien Satanists.

• 12:45Danny Jones?

  Satanic aliens.

• 12:46Speaker 03

  I don't think anyone, I don't think anyone thought to put those two together at the time, which.

• 12:52Speaker 03

  But yeah, so it was either aliens or Satanist. And so the next day and at the university, we were, my office was on the second floor. So we were out in the hallway talking about this. I think the new graduate students were, you know, because you're looking down the barrel of spending four to five years at the school, right? Of your life at the school. And we have all just moved here from other states or other countries even. So we're all trying to get our heads around what's actually happening here. So there was a heated discussion in the hallway about, about what was going on. And we clearly bothered one of the professors down the hall because he came out of his office to find out what all the commotion was about. And we told him and he goes, oh, yeah, I think he tried to comfort us, but it was not comforting. He said,

• 13:37Speaker 03

  oh, yeah, this happens from time to time and they'll investigate it. And they'll worry about aliens and Satanists and they won't figure anything out. And then we'll just all forget about it until it happens again. And we were like, okay, this is really just messed up. And then, then, and then he goes, but you know what's really weird? He see, he said, I have friends who are in the air force, who work up at the air force base in Monstrem Air Force Base up in northern Montana. And they have problems up there with UFOs flying over the nuclear weapon sites over the ICBMs and shutting down the missiles. And we listened politely when he walked away, we frankly, we left our asses off because that was the silliest thing I'd ever heard. UFOs

• 14:22Speaker 03

  shutting down nuclear missiles, you know, and, and we talked about that a little bit and thought, well, that can't possibly be real because the air force would be all over this. I mean, this would be the biggest national, um, security problem in existence that you could possibly imagine. Um, so we just thought it was nonsense. And, um, and it kind of was a running joke that year. Whenever somebody said, you know, something weird happened to me, but somebody would go, "Yeah, but what's really weird is there's UFOs shutting down missiles in northern Montana." We would all laugh. So that just stuck with me. That was 1988, September of 88. So.

• 14:57Danny Jones?

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• 15:41Danny Jones?

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• 16:25Danny Jones?

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• 16:27Speaker 03

  Fast forward, what, 30 years? And we're around 2015. I'm teaching a course in astronomy at the University of Albany in New York. And, and I was preparing for a lecture in astrobiology, life on other planets. And, and I don't have much to talk about. We don't know much about the possibilities of life elsewhere. And so some of my students wanted me to talk about the possibility of aliens coming to Earth or UFOs and things like this. And I was like, I don't even know, this is a real physics class. I don't know what I could possibly talk about. So I was just poking around on the internet and I stumbled on the. Press conference that Robert Hastings held in 2010 at the National Press Club where

• 17:08Speaker 03

  he had six people who had been on Air Force bases, all talking about UFOs shutting down nuclear missiles. The first speaker was Robert Solis from Momstrom Air Force Base, the same Air Force Base. And I saw that and I thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I heard about this when I was in grad school 30 years ago. And I listened to what he said and I thought, my God. And that happened, his story happened in 1966. And I thought, I heard about it in 1988 as something that was happening, that they had a current problem. And I thought, this can't be made up because this is just so ridiculous, nobody would make it up for 20 years. You know, different people wouldn't just continue a silly story like this for

• 17:53Speaker 03

  20 years, unless there was something to it. I thought, and then it kind of struck me, I thought, this must be real and nobody is doing anything about it because they all think it's nonsense. And then I thought, and if that's the case, then we've got a real problem on our hands, right? And so, so I became, I thought, we have to pay attention to this. Let's, so I started paying attention. I started researching the topic myself. And the more I started reading, I thought, wow, this is actually really interesting. There's a lot here. It's not all nonsense. And, and I remembered back to some cases that I'd heard about. I was, I remember seeing on the NBC nightly news with Tom Brokaw and Connie

• 18:33Speaker 03

  Chung in 1986, the Japanese airline case where a large UFO, the size of, size of an aircraft carrier, basically, what, four 747s across, followed this airlines for 45 minutes. And I remember seeing that on the news. And I, so the more I read about this, I thought, this could actually be a really big deal. This is, and we all just laugh it off like a joke, but what if it isn't a joke? And what if this is serious? So, so I, so I kind of detest the waters. I gave a, put together a short talk on UFOs that I gave to our department, just a, just a, you know, Friday afternoon talk and,

• 19:16Speaker 03

  And then it got widely advertised and the whole room was filled. The room was filled beyond, you know, beyond capacity. There were people sitting cross legged on the floor all the way up to the front screen. And I gave this talk on UFOs saying, look, these things look interesting. And, um, and there were a lot of people were like, yeah, that is really interesting. So I got a lot of support for that from the department and, and then it was only

• 19:41Danny Jones?

  What year was this?

• 19:42Speaker 03

  That was like 2015.

• 19:44Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:44Speaker 03

  And then it was only two years later that Wesley Kane and, um, what, Helene Cooper, Ralph Blumenthal and, and And Wesley Kane wrote the, wrote the New York Times article about the ATIP program.

• 19:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 03

  And when that came out, I was like, yeah, see, this is actually a problem and no one's paying attention. And this is dangerous. We're dangerously ignorant about what's going on.

• 20:07Danny Jones?

  And yeah.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  And I thought, instead of thinking somebody's got to solve this and somebody's got to look at, I thought, whoa, heck, why don't I do it?

• 20:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 20:14Speaker 03

  You know, why don't I try?

• 20:15Danny Jones?

  I keep going back and forth on what this, on, on my theory of this whole thing. But, um, like the Tic Tac thing, a lot of them feel like it's just like, you know, military technology or like super dark DARPA stuff or whatever. But then you have stories like that, uh, the sixties Japanese airline flight or it's

• 20:34Speaker 03

  In 1986.

• 20:35Danny Jones?

  Eighty six, is that when it was?

• 20:37Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 20:37Danny Jones?

  And I think it was a cargo plane flying through Alaska. And they said that these, uh, first of all, he said there was these two little lights that like came up and were darting around in front of them, like

• 20:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were little rectangular lights and they were like scanning like this, but shining the light beam into the cockpit.

• 20:53Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 20:54Speaker 03

  It was hot and scaring the pilots.

• 20:56Danny Jones?

  And the pilot just said that he reached into his briefcase to pull a camera out to take a photo of them and they just vanished. And then a couple of minutes later, this mothership shows up. That's like the size

• 21:07Speaker 03

  This, it's shaped like a walnut.

• 21:09Danny Jones?

  Or something.

• 21:09Speaker 03

  And it was, yeah, the size, shape of a walnut. It's about a thousand feet diameter.

• 21:14Danny Jones?

  He drew an amazing, uh, he, he drew an amazing illustration, Steve, of how big it was. He drew a picture of the plane that he was flying compared to the size of the craft.

• 21:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 21:28Danny Jones?

  Which you could probably find it on this Wikipedia article if you type in the guy's name, the pilot's name and the Japanese Airlines cargo flight, he.

• 21:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, Kenji Tarachi.

• 21:37Danny Jones?

  It is insanely big. Okay, it's the, yeah, there's a little sketch on the top, I think.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Right, those two, those are the two rectangular things and then, yeah, he's another sketch.

• 21:49Danny Jones?

  It looks like a napkin sketch. You'll know, you'll know when you see it. Um, but yeah, that, uh, that, that's something, especially in the eighties, like something that big is like, I don't know. I don't know.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  The amazing thing about, the amazing thing about this is that the radar data exists.

• 22:07Speaker 03

  And you can analyze the radar.

• 22:08Danny Jones?

  From that incident.

• 22:09Speaker 03

  From that incident. They have forty-five minutes of radar data. And the, um, a lot of it was confiscated by President Reagan's scientific team and the CIA and the FBI. They all came up to confiscate it, but the, um, but, um, I'm blanking on his name.

• 22:25Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's it. That's it, Steve.

• 22:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, the big walnut shaped thing.

• 22:28Danny Jones?

  Quality, but.

• 22:29Danny Jones?

  I got an, I got an image of the guy too.

• 22:31Danny Jones?

  Oh, beautiful. Pull up the, uh, can you, can you, can you blow it up? So we, so we could show it to people?

• 22:40Danny Jones?

  Look at that. So, so.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, so Callahan.

• 22:42Danny Jones?

  Look at that. That is insane. That thing is like, that's, that's like a hundred times the size of the airplane.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 22:48Danny Jones?

  You could fit a hundred of those airplanes inside that thing.

• 22:51Speaker 03

  And so, you know, and so when people, you know, are skeptical of this, I'm like, how wrong can this guy have been? Okay, so maybe he's off by the size by twenty percent. You know, for that to become a reasonable story.

• 23:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 23:05Speaker 03

  He would have to be off by so much.

• 23:07Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  And he describes it as it moved in front of the plane. You couldn't see out of the cockpit. The craft was there. I mean, it was, it's terrifying. And he was terrified in talking to the air traffic control. And I would be too. I mean, that's terrifying.

• 23:22Danny Jones?

  How did the story get out, I wonder?

• 23:24Speaker 03

  And, um.

• 23:26Danny Jones?

  You'd imagine they would want to keep the secret.

• 23:28Speaker 03

  I don't remember exactly how it got out. It got out pretty quickly and they weren't able to put the lid on it. Yeah. And, um, and then Callahan had to turn the, all the materials over to Reagan's scientific team. And then, um, but he had kept copies for himself, stashed in a box under his desk and he kept it under his desk for like 20 years. While he worked, um, John Callahan, who was the FAA chief of accidents and investigations.

• 23:56Danny Jones?

  Yes, yes.

• 23:57Speaker 03

  And he kept that material for like 20 years and then released it publicly. So Daniel Kumpay, another physicist, he was a physicist at the Niels Bohr Institute. Um, he has a book called anomaly where he actually analyzed that, um, in my paper, I analyzed the basic description of what was going on, just to get an idea of how fast this thing was moving. But Daniel Kumpay actually worked through the, the radar data. And this thing made multiple jumps from location to location in the one 11 sec or so second sweep of the radar. And, um, he estimates the acceleration to be on the order of 10,000 Gs.

• 24:38Danny Jones?

  10,000?

• 24:39Speaker 03

  With a top speed. So you get a top speed of about 250,000 miles an hour.

• 24:44Danny Jones?

  250,000?

• 24:46Speaker 03

  That thing could get to the moon at that speed, that thing could get to the moon in 52 minutes.

• 24:51Danny Jones?

  How fast does our fastest jet plane go?

• 24:55Speaker 03

  Our fastest fighter jet?

• 24:56Danny Jones?

  Our fastest fighter jet, fastest?

• 24:58Speaker 03

  Or fastest, I don't, I don't exactly know. I'm like.

• 25:01Danny Jones?

  What is like, what's like the fastest?

• 25:03Speaker 03

  Probably not much, probably 6,000 miles an hour, probably faster. You're not going to get much faster than 10,000. 17,000 is orbital speed.

• 25:12Danny Jones?

  F 22 Raptor goes to, okay, 1400 miles per hour. Okay, okay.

• 25:19Danny Jones?

  Wow. So.

• 25:19Speaker 03

  And they can't, they can't accelerate more than.

• 25:21Danny Jones?

  200 times the speed of that.

• 25:23Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

• 25:25Danny Jones?

  That's insane. And these things also have to like, slow down. They have to stop. They stop on a dime. That's

• 25:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, the accelerations are insane. Yeah. And that energy has to go somewhere.

• 25:36Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 25:37Speaker 03

  So where does that energy, that kinetic energy, first, where does the energy come from? It's coming from their engines. Okay, fine. You can just say that and maybe get away with it. But when it stops, where does the energy go?

• 25:48Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 25:49Speaker 03

  That's a bigger question.

• 25:50Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 25:51Speaker 03

  You know, in car, you have brakes, the brakes heat up, right? But in a, with this, this sort of thing, where does the energy go? You've got a ton of kinetic energy to get rid of in fractions of a second. It's no way to do it. There should be a huge explosion when it happens and it doesn't.

• 26:08Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 26:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, we really don't understand what these things do at all. And it's not,

• 26:14Speaker 03

  it's not that it's advanced technology. It is conceptually far beyond us. It's, they're amazing, really.

• 26:22Danny Jones?

  Do you think it's possible that any of this stuff could be some like military stuff that we don't know about?

• 26:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 26:26Danny Jones?

  No.

• 26:26Speaker 03

  No, absolutely not.

• 26:28Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 26:28Speaker 03

  For one good reason. And the reason, sitting on your shelf right over there, Richard Dolan's book on UFOs. Richard Dolan has a new book on unidentified submerged objects.

• 26:38Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 26:39Speaker 03

  These things have been, yeah, these things have been observed by, and recorded in ship's logs for over 150 years.

• 26:47Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  You have reports from the 1800s of a disc coming out of the water hovering next to the ship, and then shooting off into the clouds. It's been going on for 150 years.

• 26:55Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah.

• 26:56Speaker 03

  You can't, and once you know that those cases exist,

• 26:59Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  You can't just say, gotta be Russian or Chinese. That doesn't hold water anymore. It's silly.

• 27:05Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, but don't you think it's possible that we could have got our hands on some of that stuff and like recreated ourselves?

• 27:10Speaker 03

  So some of the modern day things could be, could be modern, secret technology, military technology. That's true. But the cases from the 1800s certainly can't.

• 27:21Danny Jones?

  That you can't explain away with technology.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  So, so you can't, you, you don't get rid of the extraterrestrial or non-human hypothesis by just looking at the military technology argument today. The 150 year old cases, you've got to give that up.

• 27:38Danny Jones?

  The 150 year old cases are interesting though, because you have like writings that have been copied from like, you know, some guy on the, on the deck of a ship in the middle of the ocean, probably, you know, half smashed on a bottle of rum.

• 27:53Speaker 03

  Right.

• 27:54Danny Jones?

  Explaining these things. It was like a sun that came emerged from the depths and it was the size of the whatever it was.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Size of three moons.

• 28:03Danny Jones?

  The size of three moons, right. So it's like, it's, it's very difficult to understand and parse and corroborate that stuff.

• 28:11Speaker 03

  It is, but those, but those descriptions aren't any different than modern day descriptions. And that's what's really compelling about it.

• 28:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah, that's true. Especially shit like this. I mean, this is like.

• 28:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, that, that case is really pretty fantastic. And 10,000 Gs is amazing. At 10,000 Gs, you, at 1,000 G acceleration, you can get up to 90% the speed of light in about 17 hours.

• 28:43Speaker 03

  Because relativity kicks in. So at a 1,000 G acceleration, which we can't imagine doing either, most of, you know, airplane F 22s wings will rip off at about 13 Gs. And most missiles can't, their frame can't even withstand more than about 60 Gs. So 1,000 Gs is well beyond us. But at 1,000 Gs, you can get up to, in 17 hours, you're going 90% the speed of light.

• 29:08Danny Jones?

  90%.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  That's relativistic speeds. So relativity kicks in, time goes slower and all that kind of stuff happens. And so going to stars within 50 light years literally becomes a day trip for the traveler.

• 29:25Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 29:26Speaker 03

  Because time's going, time's going slower on their ship because they're going so fast, right?

• 29:31Danny Jones?

  Time dilation.

• 29:31Speaker 03

  Because of time dilation. For us, it's going to take 50 years for them to get there and 50 years to come back. But, but not for the traveler.

• 29:40Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 29:41Speaker 03

  And so the fact that these things have been observed, you know, suggests that maybe that's possible. Maybe you can pull that off.

• 29:51Danny Jones?

  So I'm sure you're aware of some of the stuff that Ed Witten or Lewis Witten was looking at, was looking into in Towns and Brown stuff.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  Oh, Townsend. Yeah, I know. I know a little bit about Townsend Brown.

• 30:04Danny Jones?

  There was, there was a, allegedly, there was like a whole lot of quote unquote anti-gravity research going on in like the 50s. And a lot of it seemed, seemed to go dark after that, where these guys just like stopped looking into it. And there's a speculation that there's maybe like private companies that got a hold of it. And then I think even Townsend Brown tried to like throw people off his scent at one point when he was like studying this stuff and tried to like change a bunch of it to make it confusing. So no one would understand it. But Jesse Michaels did an amazing documentary on the, on the whole Townsend Brown thing. And it basically explains that like, there's a, there were a lot of people, physicists

• 30:48Danny Jones?

  in the 50s, looking into this anti-gravity stuff. And there's another term for it. There's a, there was something they utilized with like the B2 bomber with like the skin of it that somehow made it cut through the air better. There was a, was it the Bifield Brown effect? There were some sort of technology. I forget the term right now, but it had something to do with it. It wasn't actually anti-gravity, but it was like another more primitive form.

• 31:19Danny Jones?

  So first of all, are you aware of that stuff?

• 31:21Speaker 03

  I'm aware of some of it. Yeah, I haven't spent a lot of time looking at anti-gravity research. It's not something I've been interested in. And

• 31:32Speaker 03

  And it seems to be something that people don't want to study for some reason. There are, you know, there are always rumors about people who are trying to study it, who get harassed and, and worse. So I've heard rumors like this that make me,

• 31:47Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 31:47Speaker 03

  I'll stick with UFOs and that's still not entirely safe. So, but that's

• 31:52Danny Jones?

  Who do you know? People have been harassed looking into anti-gravity stuff?

• 31:55Speaker 03

  Uh, yeah, yeah. I know of people, yeah.

• 32:00Danny Jones?

  Like academic people?

• 32:01Speaker 03

  Um, people in, I know some people in private companies who've done that. Yeah.

• 32:05Danny Jones?

  Really? So people that you've worked with and studied with and, and,

• 32:09Speaker 03

  To some degree, yeah. Yeah. No personally in one, certainly I know personally well in one case.

• 32:14Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Really? Man, I wonder what would get somebody interested in trying to figure out anti-gravity, especially like a, a serious physicist, you know, not just someone who's a, who's just like a hobbyist, UFO freak, you know, somebody who's like really into physics, like what would

• 32:31Speaker 03

  It's a, and it's a hard topic because there's always a lot of claims. I get, I'll get an email every, every two weeks. I mean, every week I'm getting emails about UFOs or something, but I'll get an email maybe every two weeks about somebody's anti-gravity work and um, they've got this great solution for anti-gravity, but um, and it's always this mishmash of buzzwords, right? Almost the same, the same buzzwords. So you can't really, it's hard, it's hard to take seriously, especially when, if you're going to figure that out, especially if somebody's doing something like electroggravitics, you would have to have the beginnings at least of a theory of, of the unification

• 33:15Speaker 03

  of electromagnetism and gravity. So you should have some of that um, worked out to some degree. And that, that I, you know, when I don't see that, that's pretty much a clue. Okay. This person really probably doesn't know what they're doing, but.

• 33:28Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah. I mean, like, like, like standard commercial airplanes, we're using the same commercial airplanes that we've been using since the 50s. It's amazing that we haven't been able to. Expound upon that and, and, and develop. It's like this technology is stagnated. I mean, physics, you know, I, you know, there's a huge thing within, you know, within physics, a string theory and all these things. No one can figure out physics. We're, that we're stuck. We have this large hydron collider and we haven't been able to figure anything out. And technology in general doesn't seem to be evolving in the way other technologies are evolving, like AI, for example, like it's making giant leaps every single week and month.

• 34:10Danny Jones?

  And then, and then on the physical side of it, it's like nothing.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's been a concern. I've, I've seen certainly YouTube videos about other businesses talking about this. Um, and, and I suspect a lot of it has to do with the fact that we went through.

• 34:37Speaker 03

  I mean, if you look at the last century, you had two giant breakthroughs about the same time. You had relativity in 1905 with general relativity following, what, seven years later or something, five years later. And so you've got that whole conceptual change. And at the same time, probably around 1925, you've got quantum mechanics coming in. So you've got these two huge paradigm shifts in physics that appeared. And quantum mechanics was such a big deal that it allowed you to calculate things that, and allowed you to figure out things that nobody's been able to figure out before. I mean, you could figure out

• 35:17Speaker 03

  why this coffee cup is orange. I mean, nobody was able to tell you why these molecules are reflecting orange light, but you can do that with quantum mechanics, right? So the, so physics went through this mindset change where.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Where to make a breakthrough, to make an advancement, all you had to do was to apply the mathematics of quantum mechanics to a problem. You didn't have to understand quantum mechanics, you just had to apply it to a problem and do the calculations to figure out what the results were. So it became this, and Richard Feynman called this the shut up and calculate paradigm, right? You know, so stop worrying about what quantum mechanics is, just shut up and calculate, do the calculations and, you know, figure something out. And that's basically what happened with physics. And so, a lot of research in physics stopped, especially theoretical work, stopped trying

• 36:17Speaker 03

  to find a new paradigm, look for inconsistencies and find a new paradigm to come up with a new breakthrough, like on the order of quantum mechanics, and it's, you know, basically assumed that won't happen and just basically resorted to doing calculations. Let's just do, let's throw all the math we can at the problem and see what comes out. And that's what string theory is, let's just throw math at the problem. It's not understand quantum mechanics better, let's just, instead of other particles, let's make them strings and then do math. So, I think that's been the mistake, is that we stopped valuing, we stopped valuing the conceptual aspects of physics.

• 37:00Speaker 03

  Why, why are the laws of physics the way that they are? And so, and so some of the theoretical work that I've done is trying to go back to these conceptual ideas, why are the laws of quantum mechanics?

• 37:12Danny Jones?

  And why do you think that's happened? Why do you think that, how did we get there? How did we get here?

• 37:18Speaker 03

  I think it was just the shut up and calculate philosophy. You could do a lot by calculating. I mean, you could figure out superconductivity by just applying quantum mechanics and come up with superconductivity, which is a breakthrough, so it's a big deal. You can get a Nobel Prize by applying quantum mechanics, without trying to understand it or trying to go further.

• 37:37Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  Yeah. So I think that we stopped appreciating that real breakthroughs come from conceptual changes rather than just applying math.

• 37:49Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 37:50Speaker 03

  You can't just throw math at a problem and expect to make a conceptual change.

• 37:55Danny Jones?

  And the people that you know that were working on this, trying to understand anti-gravity, what do you, do you know, like, what sort of sparked the flame for them to research this stuff? And if so, how far they were able to get before they got told to shut it down?

• 38:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't, I don't know that. Yeah, I don't know the details, actually. Yeah.

• 38:21Danny Jones?

  It's just so interesting, this whole thing. I know, I know a gentleman who, Jeremy Riss, who has a, he's a kind of a self-taught, I think he's like a bachelor's in physics, but he has a, he's a lab, or he has had a few labs in Massachusetts that he's been working at. And he has a whole team of people that have been working on this stuff forever. And, you know, he's constantly talking to people in the field and trying to understand stuff. And then recently, he had like, I think the FBI came and like, shut down his whole site, his whole, his whole lab, trying to study this stuff, because they're constantly like, taking, making videos of their experiments they're doing and posting them on YouTube and doing live streams and stuff like that.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  He's doing anti-grav work?

• 39:02Danny Jones?

  Yeah, he's trying to. Yeah, he's trying. He's, I mean, he understands this stuff better than, I don't know if he understands it better than anyone, but he's explained it to me better than anyone I've ever talked to. And he's a historian on, on all of the people who have studied it in the past. And very, very interesting guy to talk to.

• 39:20Speaker 03

  Oh, that's, that is interesting.

• 39:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Okay. So when it comes to like military stuff, right? And you seem to believe that this stuff could not possibly be, just because of the fact that it's so, it's been going on for so long, and the same things are happening now, it doesn't make sense.

• 39:40Danny Jones?

  But we would have to have something close to it, right? Like, if, if we have...

• 39:47Danny Jones?

  With the amount of money that we're putting into military stuff and and Defense Department stuff and you know, there's essentially trillions of dollars missing from the DOD's receipts. We would have had, we should have something close to this that that you would want to keep secret from the rest of the world. So it seems like there's probably a lot of different scenarios here that are happening at the same time.

• 40:15Speaker 03

  It's probably, I, yeah, I would, I would imagine it's possible. It's possible we have something close like this. If, if, you know, we, you, we do hear rumors of crash retrievals and I've heard these from, I mean, we've heard some of these publicly, right? But, but I've heard private ones as well. And, and, and yeah, it's possible. We did figure things out from crash retrievals if that was what's going on. Yeah, that's possible. Or even just, or even just basic research on their own. I mean, you know, that's, it is possible that things were figured out, but.

• 40:48Danny Jones?

  If you were.

• 40:49Speaker 03

  It's hard to speculate about that.

• 40:50Danny Jones?

  If you were, you know, yeah, I mean, a lot of the stuff speculation, but if you were to try to come up with a theory on how these things maneuver and how they operate, just guess, wild speculation, what would you, what would you go to?

• 41:06Speaker 03

  And that's a tough one. I think about that a lot. And first, an acceleration of 10,000 Gs, nothing's going to survive that inside. So there, it has to be, it can't be regular Newtonian motion like we imagine it. They're not moving the way we think they're moving. It's not possible at those accelerations. So something else is happening. So are they, so the first go to is using general relativity. So it's creating something like a gravitational field and things falling in a gravitational field.

• 41:37Danny Jones?

  Sure.

• 41:37Speaker 03

  So that's like warp drive concept. So.

• 41:41Danny Jones?

  This is like the thing Bob Lazar explains, where the reactor inside kind of like, it's making this pocket of space around it.

• 41:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 41:49Danny Jones?

  Where basically if it's moving this way, it's doing the same, it's like, it's like bending the space around.

• 41:54Speaker 03

  Moving the space around it and you're just moving the space around it, not the object.

• 41:57Danny Jones?

  Essentially like, essentially like, doing that, but that way.

• 42:01Speaker 03

  But that way. Yeah, exactly. So that's one, that's one solution. That's, that's the most obvious one.

• 42:09Speaker 03

  The, another idea would be that it's using something like, you know, in quantum tunneling, when you go from point A to point B without traveling in between, you know, maybe this thing is using some kind of macroscopic quantum tunneling where it's just pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, basically teleporting in some way. That's another possibility. Could there be other things happening? Possibly, yeah. It's really, it's hard to speculate without, without hard data.

• 42:38Danny Jones?

  Hmm. What other cases have you looked at that you're really interested in?

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Other, other UFO cases?

• 42:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Like, other than like, I mean, we talked about the, the Japan one, but like, are there any others?

• 42:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, there's a good number of them, and they're interesting for other reasons. Um, the, so we just finished, we just published a paper on the scientific study of UAPs. It's in the progress of aerospace science.

• 43:04Danny Jones?

  Oh, yes. This is the new paper that?

• 43:05Speaker 03

  It's a new paper that just came out. It's got 34 authors, lots of good people on it.

• 43:11Danny Jones?

  How long are you working on this?

• 43:13Speaker 03

  About, for about the last year.

• 43:14Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 43:15Speaker 03

  And it's, what do I think, 58 pages in the journal and 500 references. So it basically is a summary of, of, it's a summary of the scientific study of UAP to date, right? And, um, and one of the, so one thing we tried to do in this paper is to stay, we tried to dispel a lot of the myths that are kind of floating around, especially in academia on, on UAP. So it's an American problem. It's an American phenomenon. It doesn't happen anywhere else. Well, that's not true. And then you get the question.

• 43:47Danny Jones?

  This is a, this is a myth that's floating around in academia?

• 43:49Speaker 03

  A lot of people say all sorts of ridiculous things about UAP because they really don't know. They haven't really looked at it. Why are there no UFOs seen in Africa? Well, there, there are UFOs seen in Africa. In fact, there's books written about UFOs in Africa, right? And, um,

• 44:05Danny Jones?

  Zimbabwe, right?

• 44:06Speaker 03

  And then there's the landing in Zimbabwe at the aerial school. That's, that's well known, right? And then you've got, um, why is there no physical evidence? There's plenty of physical evidence. These things land and break tree branches and leave marks in the ground and leave radiation traces and leave chemical traces. And we have chemical traces, and some of these are being studied. And in fact, In the same issue that our paper on the new science of UAPs is being published, Jacques Vallée is publishing a paper on the reexamination of tree bark that was scorched by a very luminous UFO that landed putting out hundreds of megawatts of light, basically burnt the trees and the forest clearing. And they re-studied the tree bark. They actually

• 44:50Speaker 03

  went and re-sampled the tree bark recently. When did this happen? This happened in, was it 1965, I think? And they still have the tree bark? Yeah, well, the trees are still growing. The bark's still there. The burnt bark is still there? The bark's still there. Yeah, it's just under layers, right? So you can still get that. And so they, so they looked at that and were using that to estimate the amount of light that these things put out. So these things put out hundreds of megawatts of light in some cases. And that observation was from a physicist. A physicist was driving down the road in northern, it was near Haynesville, Louisiana, which was actually Arkansas. They were actually north of it, north enough to be in Arkansas that landing happened. And

• 45:35Speaker 03

  the physicist saw this bright light coming from the forest and was driving with his family on the highway and saw this. And as he was getting closer, realized that the light was brighter than the light on, from his headlights. And he did a quick calculation in his head, knowing how bright his headlights were, to figure out that this thing is crazy bright, and I don't want to be anywhere near it, right? So he literally stopped on the highway, did a U-turn, and got out of there. Right, right. And reported it, right? So, reported it, and then investigators came out and found the landing site and found, found the damage done. Where was this again? North of Haynesville, Louisiana. Louisiana, okay. Yeah, just across the border in Arkansas. And, yeah, so Jacques Vallée has written

• 46:19Speaker 03

  a paper on this where they estimate the luminance of these things. So the luminance, the amount of light coming from some of these UFOs is, is on the order of the amount of power of a small nuclear reactor. Why are they making so much light? Using a whole nuclear reactor's power to create enough this light to burn train bark. It's not clear why they're so luminous in some cases, very odd. Is this part of their, you know, their propulsion technology? It could be. I don't know, but then it's basically a waste product.

• 46:53Danny Jones?

  Do we know anything about any of this stuff?

• 46:56Speaker 03

  Very little.

• 46:56Danny Jones?

  This is so, it's such a frustrating topic for me sometimes.

• 46:58Speaker 03

  It's really frustrating. I think very, very little is known and I think our government knows very little. And I think that's one reason why disclosure doesn't happen faster is because I don't think they know what to disclose.

• 47:09Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 47:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, I really honestly don't.

• 47:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, I don't think, because it's going to raise many more questions that they just don't have answers to.

• 47:19Speaker 03

  And so, you know, one, one government official who's worked on these things and, and I won't name him, but we had a chance to talk to him, we scientists did, and asked him, I said, how many of these craft are operating on, in the earth environment in any given time? Just order magnitude, 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000? He goes, we have no idea. He goes, I don't know. In fact, wrote down the question, can I write down this question so I can ask it? He didn't know the answer. They don't even know how many craft we're dealing with. And that's the level of ignorance we're at. And it's, and, and why is simple is we've been treating it as nonsense for 80 years. And it's not nonsense. And when they don't treat it as nonsense.

• 47:59Danny Jones?

  The public has been treating it.

• 48:00Speaker 03

  The public treats it as nonsense.

• 48:02Danny Jones?

  The government has been treating it that way for years?

• 48:03Speaker 03

  I think a lot of them. I mean, there's different government agencies and there's different groups in the government.

• 48:07Danny Jones?

  Sure, sure.

• 48:07Speaker 03

  So, so, one of them might not be treating, might be treating it seriously, but they're not taken seriously by the others. And that leads to budget problems and, which is why ATIP gets cut and you're just going to perpetuate this problem.

• 48:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Have you ever?

• 48:23Speaker 03

  Something that we really ought to just put money into and solve the problem.

• 48:26Danny Jones?

  Have you ever listened or talked to a lady billionaire, Catherine Fitz?

• 48:31Speaker 03

  No, I'm not, I'm not familiar with her.

• 48:33Danny Jones?

  She's very interesting. We had her on the podcast recently. She worked for the Department of HUD, uh, under, she got hired under the Clinton administration and she continued under the Bush administration. And she was basically there to like clean up all the all the fraud that was going on and with the mortgages and all this stuff.

• 48:50Speaker 03

  I have heard about her, yes, okay.

• 48:51Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah, and and she basically, she was doing the math with, you know, all of the money that was going in different, she basically, she's like a math wizard, so she figures out where all the money goes in government, within all the agencies all around the world, the economy, the banks, the dollar, everything. And she basically speculates, and we were talking about on the podcast, we were talking about Doge and how Doge is going in to clean up all these agencies like USAID, and they're looking into the IRS and social security and all this stuff. She goes, uh, there's 21 trillion dollars missing from the Department of Defense.

• 49:36Danny Jones?

  She goes, if I was hired by the president to go find all the waste, fraud and abuse, I would go straight to the 21 billion dollars that went dark.

• 49:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 49:46Danny Jones?

  And she goes, she noticed.

• 49:47Speaker 03

  What's the deficit? I mean, that's like two thirds of the deficit, right?

• 49:49Danny Jones?

  Right. And she noticed that as soon as that 21 trillion dollars went missing, offshore accounts started ballooning.

• 49:57Speaker 03

  Whoa, whoa, whoa. Why would that happen?

• 50:00Danny Jones?

  Because money is being moved somewhere to offshore accounts, is what she's basically alluding to there.

• 50:06Speaker 03

  Right, right.

• 50:07Danny Jones?

  So, and I think part of her hypothesis is the the government, the the top, top, top layer of the government that needs to get shit done and doesn't want to have to worry about laws, the constitution, the bureaucracy, Congress, the Senate, all of that. If they want to get shit done, they need to have their own pool of money that they can they can operate outside the law and do whatever they want to do, fund whatever they want to fund, build whatever they want to build, their own secret military, whatever it is, without having to worry about laws and without having the public know about it. And she speculates that that's probably what happened. And and.

• 50:53Danny Jones?

  You know, it gets into whole, a whole nother realm of theories about, you know, break away civilizations and all this stuff.

• 51:01Speaker 03

  Right.

• 51:01Danny Jones?

  But that

• 51:02Speaker 03

  It's a whole part of the swamp, but nobody's tromped around in yet.

• 51:04Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right. But like the $21 trillion, I mean, you would imagine if you wanted to rule the world, run the world and you have unlimited money, you could do some shit that no one would know, including these people that we're looking at in Congress and these whistleblowers, or anyone who's in the traditional government that we like to think of as the government. They would have no clue.

• 51:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 51:29Danny Jones?

  What's going on.

• 51:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true.

• 51:32Danny Jones?

  So

• 51:32Speaker 03

  I can see, I can see that.

• 51:34Danny Jones?

  So, so, yeah, no, it's hard to be, it's hard to be optimistic about this thing. And it's, it's sometimes, I don't know if you feel the same way, but, but sometimes I feel like I'm just wasting my time and mental energy thinking about it because it's like, no one's ever going to say anything. Like, you can have fun speculating about it all day long, but we're never going to have any objective evidence or any, we're never going to know the real facts about what this stuff is. On a, on like a verifiable level, right? Like, there's never going to be anything that's verified that you can be like, oh, yeah, you're talking about facts, right? It's all going to be subjective.

• 52:07Speaker 03

  Right, yeah. And that's, that's basically why I wanted to get scientists, scientists in academia involved, because when scientists get involved and academics get involved, we'll share information, we talk to each other, we will, and we'll make this public, and that's what we do.

• 52:22Danny Jones?

  Well, then you

• 52:22Speaker 03

  And so, and if you can look at the author list on the paper, I mean, this is, we got, we got scientists from what, seven countries?

• 52:29Danny Jones?

  Okay, oh, Dolan, Jacques Vallée.

• 52:32Speaker 03

  Jacques Vallée, Beatrice

• 52:33Danny Jones?

  Ryan Graves.

• 52:33Speaker 03

  is there, Brian Graves is involved, we've got, we've got the French people, Luc Denis and, and, and then Iman Aspro from Ireland, we've got, you know, people from all over the country, Massimo Teo Dorani, Eduardo Russo, all over Europe as well. And so, you know, we're, and we talk to each other and we're working together and we are all trying to figure this out, and that's what, and I, and I think scientists could figure this out. The problem is funding, right? Right now, all these different groups, we've got several different international groups trying to collect data on UAPs, and we're all struggling for funding. And, you know, the only places that most, you're either going to get it from a very rich donor like

• 53:20Speaker 03

  Like Avi Loeb did to form the Galileo Project, or you get it from making, being funded by a documentary filmmaker like we did, from Carolyn Corey, who made it A Tear in the Sky, right? So, so we get money that, those are ways we can get money. But, but if the government or NASA was, had grant money available, we would all be applying and we would be getting it and we would be working.

• 53:49Speaker 03

  And we'd be getting answers and maybe that's one reason why we're not getting money. Right?

• 53:55Danny Jones?

  Right, and your, your, your friends that were studying anti-gravity might be just allowed to study anti-gravity.

• 54:02Speaker 03

  Could be too, yeah.

• 54:03Danny Jones?

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• 54:48Danny Jones?

  And my favorite is this chocolate flavor. And I love it because not only does it have so much protein and vitamins and stuff, but you actually do feel full after you drink one of them. It's not a burst of carbs or a protein break. It's just the perfect balance for me. It was designed by experts to provide all the ingredients your body needs for a meal. And HUEL is insanely affordable. It's cheaper than a chicken sandwich. So for me, it's the perfect balanced meal for on the go. Get 15% off for new customers using my exclusive code, DANY, D A N N Y, at huell.com. Please see our description for full terms and conditions. Skip the stress, not the nutrition. And try HUEL today for complete nutrition in a bottle. So, yeah, The Tear in the Sky, what, so what, that documentary was about?

• 55:33Speaker 03

  That was our, our UAPX group, which was founded by Kevin Day and Gary Voorhees. And along with Jason Turner, they were all involved with the Nimitz Encounter. Kevin Day was the radar operator. Oh, really? Yeah, so they all wanted answers as to what these Tic Tacs were. So they formed UAPX and they got, um, they got me involved as, as a, as a physicist. And then my colleague, Matthew Shidagas, who I work with at University at Albany. And, um, and we formed a team and went out to, um, Laguna Beach in California and Avalon on Catalina Island and set up two stations to basically modern, monitor the Catalina

• 56:18Speaker 03

  Channel for five days to watch, watch for UAPs. Which fine. It was interesting and there's spoilers here. So if you haven't seen the movie, you might pause.

• 56:28Speaker 03

  Fast forward. The movie doesn't have, the movie is mainly a documentary of our mission. So it's, it's a, it, it conveys all the real excitement that we had in doing the, working on this project for the first time, actually going out there with real equipment, trying to really look for these things. And, you know, on your first mission, you, what do you learn on your first mission typically? You learn what not to do, right? And which is exactly what happened. And we learned exactly what not to do, which is why we've gotten better at this. And, um, we, you know, there's, early on, there's a bright light that's seen from the guys on Catalina, um, moving across the sky, doesn't appear to be an airplane, uh, very bright.

• 57:14Speaker 03

  And we, they contact us in Laguna and we tried to check it out and, um, we're checking on our apps to see if it's a satellite, a known satellite, and that's not coming up to be a known satellite. So we didn't know what this was, but it turned out it was the International Space Station. Why didn't it show up on our apps? Because the stupid app we were using was off by one hour because of daylight savings time. Oh, no. And so, but who figured this out? One of the physicists did. Matthew Shidagas, my colleague, figured this out. He goes, I think it was the space station and it just disappeared at one point. And he said it disappeared because it went behind the terminator, went into the shadow of the earth. Right. It just didn't reflect light anymore. So he did, he did the calculations.

• 57:55Speaker 03

  He got, he found the real orbit and was like, yeah, it was the right time and the right direction. And then he did. He actually did the calculations that is in, so we've got a third paper in the same special issue in progress in aerospace sciences. This is, the third paper is on the UAPX mission to Catalina. So that paper describes, you know, the results of what happened from our study that is featured in a terran sky.

• 58:21Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 58:22Speaker 03

  And that's first authored by Matthew, Matthew Shadagas. And Matthew did the calculations where he took the iPhone images of the object and measured how many pixels and then did the calculations. Well, if this is so many hundred miles away in orbit, it should be this big. And he comes out to like 111 feet across, which is, he was off by a foot on the size of the space station.

• 58:45Danny Jones?

  No way. By measuring the pixels.

• 58:47Speaker 03

  By measuring the pixel size. Yeah, because he's a physicist. He knows what he's doing.

• 58:51Danny Jones?

  That's amazing, man.

• 58:53Speaker 03

  And when, I love it when, when it all comes together like that. And I'm talking like, what's his name from the A-team? I love it when, when a plan comes together. But that's exactly what happens. And it's, and to have a good physicist on the job is a good thing. It's, you know, I'm reminded of John Stewart's quote, it's amazing what scientists can do and no one makes them stop.

• 59:14Danny Jones?

  Yeah, right.

• 59:15Speaker 03

  I totally agree with that.

• 59:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, just like, you know, going back to what we were, how we were talking about, like, the evolution of technology and, and how like physics has been stagnated. Like, you know, look at the Civil War, 1860s, we were, we were shooting muskets. And then within the timeframe of a human lifespan, we went from that to dropping fusion devices out of airplanes.

• 59:43Speaker 03

  Right.

• 59:44Danny Jones?

  I mean, that's just astonishing level of technological innovation in such a, such a short period of time.

• 59:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 59:51Danny Jones?

  It's just, it's just, it just blows my mind to think.

• 59:53Speaker 03

  And it's when, and it's those fusion devices that UFOs hang around.

• 59:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 59:57Speaker 03

  And shut down. And we're worried about.

• 59:59Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:00:00Speaker 03

  Interesting. And that's another interesting thing that came out in this paper. I found that the so next week, starting later this week is the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies meeting. So after this, I'm actually flying to Alabama to go to that meeting.

• 1:00:14Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:15Speaker 03

  And the SCU team, one of the studies that they did is they studied sightings at military bases, population centers, and and nuclear centers. And they've been they've studied those from the 1940s through the 1970s. And they have a series of papers on these things.

• 1:00:33Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  And they found that the UFO, the number of sightings at nuclear centers is statistically significantly more higher than the sightings at nearby airbase, army or air bases or population centers. These things are clearly hanging out nuclear sites.

• 1:00:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 03

  And in fact, that happens early on. It starts actually when the nuclear sites were being created, when they started construction.

• 1:01:02Danny Jones?

  Interesting.

• 1:01:03Speaker 03

  Which is really odd, because how did they know? How would anyone know what's going to be made there? Right? So it's either clever enough, either clever, you're either clever enough.

• 1:01:14Danny Jones?

  Like before, before the nukes were actually there.

• 1:01:16Speaker 03

  Before the nukes were actually there, the UFOs were there watching. And they stayed watching through like 1952.

• 1:01:21Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:22Speaker 03

  And then dropped off and never in those lever levels never came back. So it was clearly we're watching the creation of these nuclear sites.

• 1:01:31Danny Jones?

  Has anyone ever talked about or reported on sightings of these things underwater? Because there's, there's hundreds of nuclear submarines circling the oceans right now that are just loaded with nukes.

• 1:01:47Speaker 03

  Well, that's a good question. And that's, you know, the, the two people currently who are looking into that, you've got Richard Dolan's book.

• 1:01:54Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:55Speaker 03

  His first book has come out. He's got two more coming out. So the first book goes from. Antiquity back to what 1969, I think, is his first book and the next book will be in next 20 years or so. And then the third book will be more recent. And you've got Admiral Timothy Collette, who wrote his white paper for the Seoul Foundation on submerged objects. I think that's the ignored aspect of UAPs. I mean UFOs, the UFO, the focus has been on flying, but these things go underwater.

• 1:02:27Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And the oceans are are less explored than the moon. We, I think we've

• 1:02:34Speaker 03

  Less explored than Mars.

• 1:02:36Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  We know, we know the surface of Mars better than we know the whole surface of Earth. Which is crazy.

• 1:02:42Danny Jones?

  That's insane to think about. Like 10% I think of the ocean floors that we mapped.

• 1:02:46Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's a water planet. I mean, we don't really, it's probably the most poorly named planet in the solar system next to Uranus, perhaps. It should just be called water or ocean. I mean, if you just, I mean, for fun, just take a globe and hold it up so that you're looking at the Pacific Ocean, right? And it is literally the whole circle.

• 1:03:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:08Speaker 03

  It's a water planet.

• 1:03:09Danny Jones?

  One whole side of it is completely ocean.

• 1:03:10Speaker 03

  The one whole side of it is just ocean.

• 1:03:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:12Speaker 03

  It's really amazing when you can see, you know, and for anybody who's flown from Los Angeles to Australia or New Zealand, you're really aware of that because it's 12 hours. You look out the window and it's still water.

• 1:03:24Danny Jones?

  Even halfway to Hawaii.

• 1:03:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, it's, yeah, it's a lot of water. And we don't know what's under there. We really don't. It's really pretty remarkable.

• 1:03:34Danny Jones?

  Well, you know, it is a majority, a water planet, but like us, we are the most intelligent life form that we know of that exists here. We're this upright bipedal hominid that has evolved, obviously, to survive on Earth.

• 1:03:59Danny Jones?

  And a lot of these things that we see, a lot of these reports of like beings and stuff, they all look just like us, bipedal, upright, walking hominids. And if they came from some other planet, like what are the chances that they would evolve to look just like us, right? Like, I think we're one of, one of two million catalogued species on the earth. And there's 20 hominids, and out of the 20 various variations of hominids, we're one of the 20. So we're like 0.001% of living beings on this earth. And we've, we're the only one that has been able to figure out how to communicate beyond our earth and develop technology to be able to leave the earth. So like, just, just calculating how rare we are on planet earth, like, we haven't been

• 1:04:43Danny Jones?

  able to find life on other planets, let alone life that evolved to look exactly like the 0.001% of life on this earth. So like, what is the percentage of, of, I don't know if you know the answer to this, but like, out of all of the planets that are habitable, are able to inhabit life, how many of them have, are just complete water worlds? Or have more water than we have?

• 1:05:09Speaker 03

  Ah, that's a good question. We know that about 20% of the planets, 20% of the star systems have a planet in what we call the habitable zone, where you could have, where the temperature is right to have liquid water.

• 1:05:23Danny Jones?

  20%.

• 1:05:24Speaker 03

  20% of the stars. So go out tonight, count out five stars. One of those stars has a planet in the right place to be able to have liquid water.

• 1:05:32Danny Jones?

  Right, okay.

• 1:05:33Speaker 03

  Whether it's a rocky planet or a gas planet, you know, you don't know, and so it might not be habitable.

• 1:05:39Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:05:40Speaker 03

  But it's in what we call the habitable zone. And water is very common, and very probably many of the terrestrial worlds have, have oceans or are water worlds in some way. I mean, Venus used to have an ocean, we know that now. My friend Mike Way, who was at NASA, who I met when I went, first went to NASA. Michael Way studies Venus, and he's probably the Venus expert. And so, he used to have green oceans, beautiful green oceans. I would love to see something like that.

• 1:06:13Danny Jones?

  How long ago?

• 1:06:14Speaker 03

  Before it got hot.

• 1:06:17Speaker 03

  Before the runaway global warming, so.

• 1:06:20Danny Jones?

  The runaway global warming?

• 1:06:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:06:22Danny Jones?

  Does he have any ideas of like?

• 1:06:24Speaker 03

  I don't know what the time periods were, but it's it's billions of years ago. Yeah.

• 1:06:27Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 1:06:28Speaker 03

  But, yeah, so, and so Venus is interesting that way. Mars used to have liquid water. We know that too. And so, and we know many of the current, you know, moons around Jupiter have oceans under ice, right? So Europa has an ice crust with a 60 mile deep ocean underneath. So a lot of them are ocean worlds. And you could easily imagine that with ocean worlds being so prevalent,

• 1:06:57Speaker 03

  anybody able to come here, if you had life evolve on another planet that could be interstellar capable and could come to Earth, they might very well be from an ocean world, in which case our oceans aren't going to be that different from their oceans. Atmospheres are horrible. You don't want to, we live on a surface with an atmosphere. It's a really pretty crappy place to live because, as you know, the environment changes every day.

• 1:07:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:25Speaker 03

  Right? That yesterday is cold and rainy. Today it's bright and sunny, right? And and warm.

• 1:07:32Speaker 03

  But atmospheres, the temperature can, the temperature changes dramatically day by day, even even within a day. But if you go from planet to planet, it's extremely different. So you go to look at Venus, you've got 100 times the air pressure on Earth, which would crush you. And you've got a carbon dioxide atmosphere. The chemicals are different, carbon dioxide atmosphere, and it's about 800 degrees Fahrenheit. I mean, when I was working at Ames is when the Magellan probe was studying Venus with radar. And one of the big mysteries that came up then was that the mountain tops. In V on Venus became radar reflective. When it got cold, so when it got to like, when the temperatures dropped to like 600 degrees

• 1:08:17Speaker 03

  or something like this, when it got cold on Venus on the mountain tops, they would become radar reflective. You couldn't figure this out until they figured out it was snow. It was lead and bismuth snow. They had metal snowflakes. Snow, so vaporized lead and vaporized bismuth in the atmosphere would crystallize and form snowflakes and fall on the mountain tops. You have metal on the mountain tops, covering metal, snowflakes covering mountain tops. That's amazing. That's what a cold day in hell looks like. Yeah. Right? That's really pretty amazing. I would love to see that, but not with 100 atmospheres of pressure. That's horrible.

• 1:08:59Speaker 03

  So Venus is a horrible place to live and then you go to Mars and you've got here, what, about 100 degrees below zero Fahrenheit, right? And you've got one one hundredth of the air pressure, so you need a spacesuit. So atmospheres vary dramatically. But if you look at an ocean, an ocean, the pressure's only going, the pressure changes one atmosphere every 32 feet, right? Yep. So you're going to, you go down 32 feet, you're at two atmospheres, you know, you'd have to go down 3,000 feet. Basically, our oceans are only about 5,000 feet deep. So you go down about 5,000 feet, you're looking at, you know, several hundred atmospheres, a thousand atmospheres, right?

• 1:09:41Speaker 03

  On the order of a thousand atmospheres or already of 100, 100 atmospheres. So it's about, so by the bottom of our oceans, the air pressure, the water pressure is about the same as the air pressure on the surface of Venus. Right. Similar, close. I'm talking orders of magnitude here. And so all you need to do is to get the pressure right, you just go down to the right depth and you'll have the pressure you want, right? And water is always between zero or between zero and 100 degrees centigrade or between 32 and 212 Fahrenheit, right? So otherwise it isn't liquid water, right? Oh, right. So the temperatures don't vary dramatically, but atmospheres they do. On Venus, it's 800 degrees. On Mars, it's 100 degrees below.

• 1:10:27Speaker 03

  So you've got a thousand degrees in temperature difference.

• 1:10:30Danny Jones?

  So no matter what planet you're on, liquid water is gonna be relatively the same.

• 1:10:34Speaker 03

  Almost the same everywhere. The biggest difference is really gonna be the chemical constituents or biology.

• 1:10:40Danny Jones?

  Yes.

• 1:10:41Speaker 03

  Biological bacteria or something which could be bad for you.

• 1:10:45Danny Jones?

  Oh, that's fascinating.

• 1:10:47Speaker 03

  That's the only difference. So going from one water world to another would be easy. And in fact, if I was an interstellar traveler preparing to just make a home on another planet and another star system I've never been to, I would bring equipment to live underwater. Because if I would build, I would bring the, you know, what's needed to set up a home underwater. And that's where I'd make my home. It would be the best place. You're shielded from radiation. You're shielded from meteorite impacts. You're shielded from all these things. A lot of protective shielding. Oceans are great places to live.

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• 1:12:23Danny Jones?

  What do you make of the time traveler theory?

• 1:12:27Speaker 03

  All the, none of these theories seem to work. That's really the problem. They don't, they don't seem to, they don't seem to describe, explain all, well, time travel is hard because we don't have a theory of time traveling. So, so equally, it's equally difficult or maybe more so than the whole warp drive problem, right?

• 1:12:51Speaker 03

  Or anti-gravity problems. So I don't, so I'm not sure what to make of that.

• 1:12:57Danny Jones?

  Isn't the idea of time travel that you can't travel back farther than when the first time machine was created?

• 1:13:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, according to general relativity. So if general relativity is the theory you're going to work from, that's basically what you're stuck with. Right?

• 1:13:13Danny Jones?

  Right. So if we're seeing hypothetical time travelers right now, that means time travel has to exist, has to be created at least right now.

• 1:13:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:13:28Danny Jones?

  Right?

• 1:13:28Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:13:29Danny Jones?

  So, and that's also possible.

• 1:13:30Speaker 03

  That could be the $20 trillion right there, but.

• 1:13:33Danny Jones?

  That could be the $20 trillion.

• 1:13:34Speaker 03

  That could be the $20 trillion, but then.

• 1:13:36Danny Jones?

  When did that go missing? 1995 or something?

• 1:13:38Speaker 03

  But that doesn't explain the reports on her 50 years ago.

• 1:13:41Danny Jones?

  That doesn't explain that. Right. But unless time travel is figured out on another planet.

• 1:13:44Speaker 03

  Another way, unless, yeah, something like that could happen. So they could be extraterrestrial time travelers.

• 1:13:49Danny Jones?

  Extra, yeah, you have to have both. That has to be extraterrestrial time travel.

• 1:13:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's where these explanations start to, they get messy because the, the, the data, what we know really doesn't have a good explanation.

• 1:14:05Speaker 03

  And I think that, you know, we haven't come up with a, with a, with a simple explanation yet that, that describes everything. And, um, and that's what makes it hard.

• 1:14:17Speaker 03

  But I think that's also why disclosure isn't easy because all these questions are going to come up with disclosure. I, I bet nobody has the answer.

• 1:14:26Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:26Speaker 03

  You really have to study these things for a long time with a lot of people to get answers. And it's hard.

• 1:14:35Danny Jones?

  What do you make of, um, the idea that, cause there, there was, um, how long ago was that whole New Jersey drone incident where we had all those drones floating?

• 1:14:44Speaker 03

  Oh, it started in late October, I think, and went through about end of February-ish.

• 1:14:49Danny Jones?

  End of February. Yeah, just this past year, this exact year we're in right now. It ended a few months ago.

• 1:14:54Speaker 03

  And it wasn't just New Jersey. That was, that was actually an interesting thing, you know, the, you know, and of course the FAA comes up with some statement, they're testing drones or something, which, and that's nonsense because they're seen.

• 1:15:07Speaker 03

  They were seen off the coast of Oregon and Seattle, too. Those were actually.

• 1:15:10Danny Jones?

  And Florida, I think.

• 1:15:11Speaker 03

  And, and, yeah, and they were, and they were seen in about seventeen countries.

• 1:15:15Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:15:16Speaker 03

  Global, it was global, yeah. It's a problem. Again, we don't have a good explanation for what happened.

• 1:15:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, and there was people trying to speculate it was like non-human and like, but if it was, it wasn't, they weren't traveling in any kind of crazy speeds. They weren't making maneuvers.

• 1:15:29Speaker 03

  Some of the sightings in Seattle, off the coast of Seattle and Oregon were, sounded like non-human craft. But those were more isolated. There was a lot more going on in New Jersey, but partly because it was, it's more populated. And I think you've got a lot more misidentifications happening.

• 1:15:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:48Speaker 03

  And I remember seeing photographs of, of, and, of craft. And I, my brother is very good with airplanes. I sent him this, I said, what do you think this is? He goes, oh, this is this kind of helicopter. And he sent me pictures of this helicopter. Yeah, it matches that helicopter. So there were a lot of misidentifications again.

• 1:16:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:06Speaker 03

  And a lot of UFO enthusiasts would say, well, it wasn't really a helicopter. It's disguising itself as a helicopter. And I was like, oh, please, we, at some point you have to.

• 1:16:16Danny Jones?

  Wouldn't be that hard.

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  Let's just calm down.

• 1:16:19Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:16:19Speaker 03

  Actually collect data on these things so we can actually figure this out instead of just guessing all the time.

• 1:16:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I can't imagine it would that be that hard to send somebody up there to figure out what the hell they were. I mean, if we wanted to know what they were, somebody could have figured that out very easily.

• 1:16:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, and actually, Ben Kukiewski from our UAPX team, he's a pilot and he actually performed some flights over New Jersey and that area to try to see if he could see these things from the air and just weren't successful.

• 1:16:45Danny Jones?

  They weren't successful?

• 1:16:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, he just didn't see any, that's all.

• 1:16:48Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:16:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:16:50Danny Jones?

  I saw.

• 1:16:51Speaker 03

  They weren't that common, but they were, they were common enough that people were seeing them. Maybe you've got several million people in the area, right? And so.

• 1:16:59Danny Jones?

  Wright Field shut down their, their runways because of these things. And there was even one that crashed. I think we found, we found something, Steve, I don't remember, we found like a photo of one that allegedly crashed. And it was, it was like, we, we tracked down the company and it was a company based out of somewhere in the Northeast that was manufacturing drones that were powered by.

• 1:17:25Danny Jones?

  Oh, fuck. I can't remember the name. There's some, some sort of chemical that was powering these drones. I want to say hydrogen, maybe hydrogen powered drones, but like it showed like a police officer holding like a couple of police officers holding this thing. It was like the size of a quadcopter that was like the size of this table.

• 1:17:42Speaker 03

  Wow, wow, that's amazing.

• 1:17:43Danny Jones?

  Maybe it had, maybe it had six propellers on it or something like that, but it looked like something, you know, standard, didn't look like anything crazy.

• 1:17:49Speaker 03

  I think what was going on was more standard things were happening in New Jersey. There was a lot, there's a lot of activity. There's a lot of air activity in the area. I'm pointing outside as if we're still there. I live in New York, so it would be for me, it's just over that way, but not from Florida.

• 1:18:06Danny Jones?

  There it is. NYPD recovers massive drone found abandoned. Click on that.

• 1:18:11Speaker 03

  Oh, that's cool.

• 1:18:13Danny Jones?

  Okay. So it was the New York posted, posted on it. In tri-state area. Scroll down, police recovered a, yeah, that, that was the one we found for sure. Go up.

• 1:18:24Speaker 03

  Under the two-year-old boy's foot.

• 1:18:26Danny Jones?

  Massive drone apparently abandoned in the Brooklyn, in a Brooklyn Navy Yard. Photo obtained by the Post shows NYPD officer holding up the unwieldy aircraft, the body of which appears to be more than five feet in diameter. Cops responded to the email tip alerting them to the presence of the drone, which they found on the sidewalk on Fifth Street between Market Street and Morris Avenue.

• 1:18:44Speaker 03

  Wow. So it was actually found in Brooklyn. That's crazy.

• 1:18:46Danny Jones?

  There was, um, yeah, look at that thing.

• 1:18:50Danny Jones?

  They, but remember we were looking at it, we were, they were able to track down the name of the company that manufactured them.

• 1:18:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I'm trying to find the manufacturer.

• 1:18:59Danny Jones?

  Ammonia, look, look, look. Officers were investigating passengers, passersby said, he worked in the building that houses the headquarters of the drones manufacturer, which he identified as Amagi Inc., a sustainable energy startup working using ammonia as a renewable fuel source, including aerial vehicles.

• 1:19:21Speaker 03

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 1:19:23Danny Jones?

  Have you ever heard of that before, anything like that before?

• 1:19:25Speaker 03

  No, I haven't.

• 1:19:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's, I mean, that's something to be, I'm, I'm glad to learn this because it's good. It's important to be aware of what's in the air if you're going to study what's in the air, right? We have to learn about all these things. So, and I think especially around New Jersey, that was hard because there were, I'm sure, once the, once the reports of these, you know, unknown objects were coming out, a lot of people, you know, with, who owned drones were like, now's a great time to go fly my drone. And then they send up their drones, and the next thing you know, it's a mess. Right? So.

• 1:19:59Danny Jones?

  But I think we, I mean, I think the United States military had to have known what that was, or else there would have been some sort of like state of emergency, or they would have been getting rid of, if it was, it couldn't have been a foreign actor, they wouldn't let it stay up for that long. Even like Trump was talking about it because they were flying over his golf course.

• 1:20:16Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:20:17Danny Jones?

  And they were flying like over some sort of military base in North Carolina, and they, they simply would not allow that to be there, if it was something they didn't understand or weren't aware of.

• 1:20:29Speaker 03

  I would, I would hope so, but yeah.

• 1:20:32Danny Jones?

  And I think there was also some sort of speculation.

• 1:20:35Speaker 03

  You have these things flying over from Homestrom Air Force Base, shutting down nuclear missiles, and no one did anything about it for decades.

• 1:20:41Danny Jones?

  Not those, though.

• 1:20:41Speaker 03

  But not those things, yeah.

• 1:20:43Danny Jones?

  Yeah, those were something that were really unexplainable.

• 1:20:45Speaker 03

  Right. Yeah, I mean, and that's part of what makes these things complicated. An unidentified object could be many things, right? And a lot of them can be conflated, and that's, makes it hard.

• 1:20:59Danny Jones?

  There's some, like even going back to Roswell, right? Like, in, in 1947, when, when that thing crashed, like, we still don't even know what happened with that, right? There's still like so much speculation on, on what happened. There's like, you know, there's, there's a handful of different theories of what happened, and no one can agree on anything, except for the fact that it probably wasn't a weather balloon, right? There was, allegedly, there was the, the guy who wrote the book on Roswell, day after Roswell, he explained.

• 1:21:29Speaker 03

  Is that Corso's book?

• 1:21:30Danny Jones?

  Yes, of course, that's Corso's book. You know, he explained there being Kevlar and Velcro. In this crash, like clearly manmade technology that was that was found that you know, no one ever talks about that. Like if this was some sort of, you know, interstellar craft, then why were they using Velcro and Kevlar?

• 1:21:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, I thought he had mentioned he had, he was claiming that they developed Kevlar from what was found in the craft, but I didn't know about the Velcro part.

• 1:21:58Danny Jones?

  Hmm. Yeah.

• 1:22:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I haven't, I haven't read his books. I don't know those details. I'd seen an interview with him.

• 1:22:04Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, that, that's, that whole thing is a real mess because you've got, um,

• 1:22:14Speaker 03

  you've got the US government coming out with multiple statements throughout the years, changing the story every time, right? And, you know, one of my favorite ones from the early 1990s was that was an air force statement that said it was they were testing a Mars lander and the disc was the back shell of the lander. Well, who's testing a Mars lander in 1947 before 10 years before Sputnik?

• 1:22:38Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:22:39Speaker 03

  That's ridiculous thing to even say. Doesn't make any sense. And so clearly a lie, right? And, um, and then after that, you know, came out, they, they came up with Project Mogul, but Project Mogul is a weather balloon problem. What they were trying to do with Project Mogul is they were trying to, they wanted to put, um, radio, radio detector, radio wave detectors up so that they could detect the electromagnetic radiation from nuclear explosions from Soviet bomb testing, right? So, but the problem is you wanted to hold these balloons at something like 50,000 feet. The problem with balloons is you let the thing go up and the balloon goes up and up and up. And as the balloon goes up, the air pressure outside goes down. So the balloon gets bigger

• 1:23:23Speaker 03

  and expands and eventually breaks and the thing falls. So they, so Project Mogul was about trying to figure out how to maintain a certain, a certain altitude for a balloon.

• 1:23:35Speaker 03

  And so they were releasing test balloons, right? They're trying to be up at 50,000 feet. And then the claim is that the balloon that was launched in early June,

• 1:23:46Speaker 03

  what, or, yeah, the balloon that was launched in early June was the one that crashed on Mac Brazel's farm or ranch in Roswell, near Roswell, New Mexico. But the problem is that when you look at the records of the New York University professor who was running Project Mogul, they didn't launch a balloon in June. They couldn't launch. The weather was bad. So they didn't launch. Yeah. So there was no balloon up. And had they done it, if had they done it, it would have been an illegal thing to do because the conditions weren't right to be able to monitor the position of the balloon. It wouldn't have been a good experiment anyway. So they didn't even have a balloon up. We have those records. We know it wasn't Project Mogul. But the, but

• 1:24:29Speaker 03

  Kirkpatrick at an arrow comes out with his report and says again, it's Project Mogul, which we know it's not. So when we know the government has been changing the story every time and lying every time. So what, what actually happened is a good question. I mean, what, what was so serious that when the military found, when the army found that the sheriff of, in the area went to the ranch to look at the debris himself, they found that out and they detained him and his family for five days. What warrants that? A radio balloon experiment? Really? Yeah. That's hard to believe.

• 1:25:12Danny Jones?

  This is the paradox of trying to rely on the government to give us any sort of confirmation about any of this stuff. Exactly. Right? This is, this is the paradox of it because, you know, they have been clearly trying to deceive and, you know, muddy up the waters of this topic forever. Yeah. So trying to rely on them is a, something that's, you know, it's futile. It feels like it's just like, I think it's a waste of time. I think so, too. Plus there's, plus there are other governments on the planet, other governments who actually know things. Yeah. Let's work with them. Go on to talk to the Chileans. Maybe they'll talk.

• 1:25:55Speaker 03

  They've collected data. They've collected information. You know, I'd I'd rather spend time with other governments than wasting time with this one.

• 1:26:02Danny Jones?

  But a lot of those governments are subservient to the US government.

• 1:26:05Speaker 03

  And that is a problem.

• 1:26:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I've heard stories that this whole topic, there's like zero stigma when it comes to this stuff in like Russia, for example, like even like, like the government and the population, they're all into like esoteric UFOs astrology and all this stuff and they're openly.

• 1:26:25Speaker 03

  They go through waves like we do. And we talk about that Russia a little bit in our paper. We didn't have the the French co-authors worked produced a lot of the material on the Russians. So we talked about that in the paper and they they'd gone through phases where they would start studying UFOs and then somebody would say that's ridiculous and they would shut it down and then they would start up again and shut it down, kind of like what happens here goes up and down a good bit.

• 1:26:51Danny Jones?

  And who who were the the folks that you got the information from in Russia? Like, were there certain?

• 1:26:58Speaker 03

  Oh, they were from documents from.

• 1:27:00Danny Jones?

  Oh, actual documents.

• 1:27:01Speaker 03

  Documents, yeah. Yeah. So we learned a little bit about what went on there, but a lot of it's not known. I mean, the Soviet Union was pretty tight lipped about everything it did. So.

• 1:27:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:13Speaker 03

  I don't think like the US government, you're never going to find out what the Russians knew.

• 1:27:17Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:27:18Speaker 03

  It's a problem.

• 1:27:19Danny Jones?

  Right. Yeah. And then, you know, there's lots of cases that happened in like South America where like even stuff that Jacques Vallée is written about, that's like really frightening stuff. And I'm sure you're familiar with James Fox's documentary about Brazil.

• 1:27:35Speaker 03

  In Brazil.

• 1:27:38Danny Jones?

  What was the name of this? The town in Brazil again?

• 1:27:41Speaker 03

  There's there's the.

• 1:27:42Danny Jones?

  It was like the Roswell of Brazil, basically. But they, you know, they explained that crash and there was like multiple witnesses and the next day the US Air Force came down.

• 1:27:50Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:27:50Danny Jones?

  And landed there and supposedly took these bodies away that, you know, and they claimed it looked like it was like two arms, two legs. It looked like a demon smelled like a demon.

• 1:28:00Speaker 03

  The description so like sulfur. Everybody thinks it's a demon.

• 1:28:04Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:04Speaker 03

  And so they're always great descriptions.

• 1:28:06Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:28:06Speaker 03

  It's very funny.

• 1:28:07Danny Jones?

  That was Virginia.

• 1:28:08Speaker 03

  Virginia.

• 1:28:09Danny Jones?

  Virginia.

• 1:28:10Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 1:28:10Danny Jones?

  Yeah, you know, and it's like, then like the stories like that are the ones that like that just doesn't fit into any.

• 1:28:19Speaker 03

  They're weird. Yeah, they're weird. And then there's there was there's the explosion in Uba Tuba. In Brazil where they had, they saw a disc coming in, the fishermen, these fishermen saw a disc coming in that then pulls up, looks like it's going to crash into the ocean, it pulls up just at the last minute and then just explodes and then left debris and they collected debris and that's been analyzed by multiple people by this point and

• 1:28:44Danny Jones?

  Oh, has it?

• 1:28:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's almost, yeah, it's magnesium.

• 1:28:47Danny Jones?

  We have it? We can look at it?

• 1:28:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, it exists.

• 1:28:50Danny Jones?

  And it's like

• 1:28:50Speaker 03

  I don't have it in my position.

• 1:28:52Danny Jones?

  Or is it like locked away in the government?

• 1:28:53Speaker 03

  No, there are other, um, other researchers have it. I don't know. I know that, um, Robert Powell from SCU has studied it and wrote a paper on it with Phyllis Boodinger, who's a physical chemist who's worked on a lot of cases.

• 1:29:07Danny Jones?

  Is that kind of stuff's, um, material, is that kind of material, something that would be able to be created on Earth?

• 1:29:15Speaker 03

  Um, it was very pure magnesium, which would have been very hard to purify back when it exploded, which I don't remember exactly what the date was.

• 1:29:23Danny Jones?

  But not impossible.

• 1:29:25Speaker 03

  But not impossible, probably, yeah. But it would be very expensive and very hard. So it's hard to imagine that somebody made a craft of this and then it blew up and, and this one heck of a story still.

• 1:29:35Danny Jones?

  It is. It is one heck of a story. But some of this stuff is like, you know, when, when you have things that you have people talking about demons smelling like sulfur, running around the woods and getting people sick where they're like dying. I think one of the cops that handled the thing died allegedly. It's like, wow, this sounds like some sort of like biblical character.

• 1:29:56Speaker 03

  I had a weird synchronicity involving a UFO crap, a landing. Um, I knew about, I had heard, heard about the, this landing that happened in the Mexican state of Chihuahua. Where people describe it as the UFO was just left there, doors open, keys in the ignition is usually how people describe it, which is just as a, you know, saying that it's just there unoccupied. And a lot of, you know, UFO people will say that it's, was gifted to us or something, which I don't, I I was like gifted. Are you serious? The thing's a Trojan horse. They've got

• 1:30:38Speaker 03

  I wouldn't trust it. But, but anyway, yeah, people have weird ideas about what's all going on. Weird belief systems. And so, and I'm more suspicious and skeptical still. And so, so I had heard that story and that, that, and that, and the story I heard was that it landed in Mexico and the American government went in and grabbed it. Right. Just stole it and took it. And that's the story I heard. And I, so I knew this, this story. And I didn't know many of the details. So I was flying out to Los Angeles to film our scenes with William Shatner for A Tear in the Sky. And I landed in LA and I was, had an Uber driver driving us up to Castle Studios in Burbank.

• 1:31:22Speaker 03

  And I'm chatting with the Uber driver. He wants to know what I'm doing. Oh, I'm very excited because we're going up to film some scenes with William Shatner for this documentary on UFOs. And he goes, oh, UFOs, that is so cool. You study them? Yes. And and he goes, yeah, my dad, he goes, I'm originally from Mexico and my dad was a Mexican general. And he handled a lot of top secret stuff in Mexico. And he, oh, he used to tell me some crazy stories, but I was, I was really young at the time. I was like 13, 14. So I didn't believe half of them. So I didn't take them seriously, but now I wish I had. And, and, and he said, yeah, he told me once about this UFO that landed in Chihuahua. And I was like, whoa, whoa.

• 1:32:04Speaker 03

  I'm going to hear this story from the Mexican side, right? I couldn't believe it. I was like, what a strange coincidence. I'm in the car being driven by the son of a Mexican general who had access to all this top secret stuff. And he's telling me the story. So he goes, yeah, this UFO landed in Chihuahua and they sent a team in. They had a guy in the back, you know, some distance away with a radio. And the rest of the team went in to investigate and they all died. And they didn't know why they died and they didn't know what to do. The guy radioed back panicked. You know, the whole team is dead. I don't know what to do. And they call, they called the Americans to come down and take this thing. So we didn't just steal it. They Mexicans called us to come help them with it.

• 1:32:48Speaker 03

  And so then he goes, so then the Americans came in and the Americans came in and they, they got the craft and took it away. And that's the story he told me and I was like, yeah, it's the same story. I know, I know this story, but from the other side, right? So it's like, it's like a weird confirmation, right? That, yeah, this probably really happened. Yeah.

• 1:33:07Danny Jones?

  Isn't it funny? Some of the stuff that you can learn from Uber drivers.

• 1:33:11Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. He's just the guy driving my Uber while I'm filming a UFO doc, on my way to film a UFO documentary. What a weird coincidence.

• 1:33:19Danny Jones?

  How many people did he say died?

• 1:33:22Speaker 03

  I don't know how big the team was. Yeah. He didn't say.

• 1:33:24Danny Jones?

  And they all died from coming in contact with this thing?

• 1:33:26Speaker 03

  They all came in contact with it and died. I don't know why. Yeah. They didn't know why. Yeah.

• 1:33:33Danny Jones?

  Now that's some of the stuff.

• 1:33:34Speaker 03

  That's one hell of a gift.

• 1:33:35Danny Jones?

  That's some of the stuff that, yeah, yeah. Right? Good Lord. Now there's been studies on people that have come in contact with these things, right? And had it problems, right? Like, like problems with their brains.

• 1:33:46Speaker 03

  Radiate, well, radiation burns and, um, are, are, yeah, that happens just, um, burns from the luminosity alone are bad. Right? Um, so that's a problem, but there are people who have had radiation burns and radiation sickness from being in contact with these things.

• 1:34:04Danny Jones?

  Hmm. And do we know how many people roughly or like how many people were involved in the study?

• 1:34:09Speaker 03

  No, I don't know if there's the Cash Landrum case where they actually got cancer from radiation contact. There was the, what, John's, John Burrows, who was involved in the, um, in the English, the case in England with the landing at, um,

• 1:34:27Danny Jones?

  Rendlesham?

• 1:34:28Speaker 03

  Rendlesham Forest between Bentwaters Air Force Base. And yeah, right, right up there. Yeah. So John Burrows was, he had, he had health problems from being in contact with radiation there. And he had problem, he sued the, the air force, if I remember right, he sued the air force for his medical records. Because his medical records were classified.

• 1:34:49Speaker 03

  Having come into contact with this, so.

• 1:34:54Danny Jones?

  That's so bizarre, man.

• 1:34:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, when you really dig into this, it's it's it's not at all boring. It's really interesting and it's complicated. There's a lot going on. It's not. It's not a simple blow offable thing, you know?

• 1:35:10Danny Jones?

  I feel like NASA has to know more. NASA has to have some idea.

• 1:35:14Speaker 03

  I would like, I would think so too. Yes.

• 1:35:17Danny Jones?

  Yeah, I mean, just think about like the like.

• 1:35:19Speaker 03

  I mean, I know, I know astronauts have seen things. I talked to, I got to meet, um.

• 1:35:26Speaker 03

  I met and talked to Alan Bean, who was on on the moon on Apollo thirteen fourteen.

• 1:35:31Danny Jones?

  Oh, really?

• 1:35:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. No, no, Alan Bean was in twelve. He was in Paula. Yeah, he he's now since passed away, unfortunately, but he.

• 1:35:42Speaker 03

  I was very lucky. The the documentary in the shadow of the moon, the Ron Howard film on the moon landings.

• 1:35:50Danny Jones?

  I haven't seen that one.

• 1:35:51Speaker 03

  Oh, it's excellent. They spent most of the time is interviewing the actual astronauts. And they had a premiere showing at the Rose Haden Planetarium in New York City. And I being at Albany, our, the chair of our department had tickets to go see the premiere showing. And he couldn't go, so I just gotten done teaching the astronomy class and I came into the office and he said, Kevin, you teach astronomy. Would you like to go see this? And I was like, wow, when is it? He goes, tonight. And I was like, it was, it started like seven o'clock or something. And it was like two o'clock in the afternoon. I was like, holy cow, I'm gonna like leave now if I'm gonna go do this. So.

• 1:36:31Speaker 03

  So my wife couldn't go sadly, but my postdoc, Dennis Kinshaga could go. And so me and my postdoc drove down to go see the the premiere showing of the mood documentary. And I didn't have time to even look at the brochure. I just hopped in the car and we went and we're driving and he goes, have you read this? I said, no, I haven't even looked at it. He goes, it says, stay afterwards for a reception where you can meet the astronauts. And I was like, what astronauts? And he goes, I don't know. It doesn't say. And I was like, well, they're not gonna be shuttle astronauts. If it's a Apollo film, they're gonna have to be Apollo astronauts. And and he goes, yeah, it looks like Buzz Aldrin's gonna be there. And yeah, it was, I mean, it was Buzz Aldrin and Edgar Mitchell was there and Alan Bean and.

• 1:37:18Speaker 03

  And Harrison Schmidt was there and oh Harrison Schmidt was wonderful. He was the only scientist who's ever been to the moon. He's the only geologist.

• 1:37:25Danny Jones?

  Who's ever been to the moon?

• 1:37:26Speaker 03

  Who's been to the moon.

• 1:37:27Danny Jones?

  Harrison Schmidt?

• 1:37:28Speaker 03

  Harrison Schmidt. He was, he's, yeah, he is, um, yeah, he was in Apollo 17. The big, the picture of, of the astronaut standing next to that giant boulder, I think is a picture of him.

• 1:37:40Danny Jones?

  Okay. And he was a, what was his, he was a geologist?

• 1:37:45Speaker 03

  A geologist. Yeah. And he, oh, he talked, he was so nice. He talked to us for a half hour. Just me and Dennis talked to us for, I mean, we weren't excluding anybody, but he was, he was talking about what it was like to be on the moon. And the, they were at Torres Littre, which is a big canyon. He says it's wider than the Grand Canyon. You're standing on the edge of this giant canyon, bigger than the Grand Canyon, with the earth in the sky. And he's, he's in tears describing this. And we're just like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm hearing, hearing what the moon is like from somebody who's been there. I mean, it's really amazing.

• 1:38:17Danny Jones?

  How old was he at the time?

• 1:38:19Speaker 03

  I don't know how, how old he was. He, he looked quite young, but yeah. But they all told amazing stories. They all told craziest stories about things you never hear about, which was really spectacular. Like Alan Bean, when we talked to him, he was describing what happened when they launched. He said there was Apollo 12. They all had their, um, NASA was getting kind of cocky and there was a thunderstorm and they decided to launch with the Apollo.

• 1:38:47Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow. He's only 37 when it, when he walked on the moon.

• 1:38:49Speaker 03

  When he walked on the moon, yeah.

• 1:38:52Speaker 03

  Yeah. So they decided to launch in a thunderstorm. And he said, we had just cleared the tower and the, and the module got hit by lightning and it took out the power. So all the electricity went out. And he said that they had the option to abort. He goes, we can abort and, or do we just ride this thing blind into orbit? You know, the thing is designed to just rocket into orbit, right? So it would have just, they were hoping it would just still go into orbit. So they voted to just ride it into orbit. So they rode that thing into orbit blind with all the lights off. It was dark, pitch black capsule in a rocket going into orbit. And they got into orbit and they had to then get their flashlights out and try to power everything up again.

• 1:39:36Speaker 03

  Get it working, hopefully get it working. So they could get back, back home if they needed. So there, um, So they were able to get the power restored, but when they rebooted the computers, the navigation database, the navigation system, put them at the launch point rather than in orbit. So they had to program their position and orbit into the navigation computer, right?

• 1:40:02Danny Jones?

  Manually.

• 1:40:03Speaker 03

  Manually. So they could get their position and orbit from ground control, but they couldn't get the orientation of the spaceship. The ground control couldn't tell the orientation of the craft. So they had to manually get the orientation of the craft, and they did it by sighting stars. They made a recticle out of masking tape and put it on the window and measured where it was. And then they did that on the other window. They got a star lined up on that window and then they lined up, they put another recticle up where another star that they could identify was on the other window. And they measured the positions of those rectangles and sent that information down to Houston where they then calculated the orientation of the spaceship.

• 1:40:45Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 1:40:46Speaker 03

  I mean, it was, these guys, the reason they pulled it off in 1960 is because they were, or 1969, or I guess that launch was, what, 70? Would have been 1970 or something, but.

• 1:40:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:40:58Speaker 03

  The way, they pulled it off because they were brilliant.

• 1:41:00Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:41:01Speaker 03

  And, you know, I'm not sure anybody today could pull that off, you know?

• 1:41:06Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:41:07Speaker 03

  It's tough. I mean, nobody, we rely too much on computers and calculators and everything for everything, right? Nobody's going to be able to identify a star, you'd have to get on Google to get a star map and, you know, people, you know, but the astronauts could look out the window and tell you what stars were.

• 1:41:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:24Speaker 03

  They knew this.

• 1:41:25Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:26Speaker 03

  They were well educated. They knew what they were doing. Brilliant.

• 1:41:29Danny Jones?

  You know, that's a, you know, that's an interesting thing is that the technology during the Apollo programs is one of the only technologies that just never expounded upon itself and never grew, never wasn't doubled or even able to advance in the way other technologies are. Like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, look at, look at cell phones, the way cell phones has, have evolved since the first cell phones. And, you know, vehicles, uh, every, every single type of technology, computers even. And then. The Apollo technology that was used to launch the astronauts to the moon is the only

• 1:42:11Danny Jones?

  technology that we haven't been able to increase its ability or even duplicate it, you know, 50 to 60 years later. It's just so.

• 1:42:24Speaker 03

  I mean, some of it, it was, it was, they were early computers, right? So they were, but they were robust. They weren't, they weren't, they weren't powerful, but they were robust. Right? And that's the, that's the cool thing about them. And that's what didn't last was the robustness, right? Because to make them more powerful, they have to become, you have to make everything smaller. So it has to become less robust.

• 1:42:45Danny Jones?

  What, what, what, why do you think that we haven't been going back? Cause I would just imagine like in, in, in, in the op, in the perfect world, we would have kept going back ever since, every single year, developing new, new technologies, faster ways to get there, way, you know, building bases there.

• 1:43:03Speaker 03

  We fight too many wars.

• 1:43:05Danny Jones?

  You think that's it?

• 1:43:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, we stopped because of Vietnam. Vietnam was too expensive. And then we had the recession in the eighties and then.

• 1:43:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:13Speaker 03

  And then for what, for the last 20 years, we've been fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. And I mean, we're always fighting wars.

• 1:43:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:20Speaker 03

  That's what humans do. It's awful. Yeah.

• 1:43:25Danny Jones?

  I mean, but like even.

• 1:43:26Speaker 03

  We're always so excited about the next one, but.

• 1:43:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:29Speaker 03

  We never think about the amount of damage it does and the toll it takes and the, you know, it's, it's a big problem.

• 1:43:36Danny Jones?

  It's just, it's mind blowing to me, you know, cause the first, the first mission to the moon is like the greatest achievement of humankind.

• 1:43:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:43:46Danny Jones?

  Ever, you know, and just the idea that we would be so naive or whatever, whatever you want to call it to, to not want to invest more money into that and to just scrap it. It's just like, if you were, if I was watching this movie a hundred years from now, I'd be like, what the fuck are you people doing?

• 1:44:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true. I, I feel the same way. And yes, have, having watched, you know, the moon launches when I was a kid, I always wanted to go to the moon and, you know, and what I turned 60 last month. So like, I'm probably not going to go to the moon.

• 1:44:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:44:22Speaker 03

  Sucks. I would have liked to.

• 1:44:24Danny Jones?

  Well, um, I think, wasn't it, isn't there a planned, a manned mission, a manned mission that's planned to go happen soon?

• 1:44:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, they were supposed to go next year.

• 1:44:32Danny Jones?

  Isn't it Artemis?

• 1:44:34Speaker 03

  Artemis, yeah. Which I think was kind of done wrong. I mean, it's Artemis is what the sister of Apollo, right? So it's it's the idea and they were gonna have the first woman on the moon. And when I saw that they had one woman.

• 1:44:45Danny Jones?

  The first woman, okay.

• 1:44:46Speaker 03

  They were gonna have the first woman on the on in the mission. And I was like, Jesus, just make them all women. I mean, it's Artemis. They should all be women going to the moon. Why not? All right. Plenty of good women.

• 1:44:57Danny Jones?

  Was Artemis a girl?

• 1:44:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's the sister of Apollo.

• 1:45:01Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:45:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, the idea was, I mean,

• 1:45:04Danny Jones?

  I love how we name all these things.

• 1:45:05Speaker 03

  Greek mythology, it was it was Artemis and Apollo and Apollo was sent into the heavens, right? So they're separated. Or Artemis was sent in the heavens, right? She's the she's the moon.

• 1:45:14Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:45:15Speaker 03

  And she's represented by the moon. And the whole point of Apollo mission was to reunite Apollo with Artemis. It was quite a beautiful idea.

• 1:45:22Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:45:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:45:24Danny Jones?

  I love how all these NASA people are so obsessed with the ancient Greeks. They want to rename everything.

• 1:45:28Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 1:45:29Danny Jones?

  Wasn't there there? I was recently learning about some of some like NSA rockets or NRO rockets that were launched out of Vandenberg. And it was, oh, God, I can't remember what it was now. But they named them all after like ancient Greek goddesses or something like this.

• 1:45:47Speaker 03

  That's great. Yeah. Well, there are rules for naming astronomers have rules for naming features on planets. So all of the features on Venus are all goddesses.

• 1:45:57Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:45:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:45:58Danny Jones?

  Why do they do this?

• 1:46:00Speaker 03

  They they well, they have some kind of consistency and

• 1:46:03Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:04Speaker 03

  and naming and all of that. Like, all of Uranus's moons are all named after Shakespeare characters.

• 1:46:11Danny Jones?

  Wow.

• 1:46:12Speaker 03

  Miranda and and Ariel and Ariel. Yeah.

• 1:46:16Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 1:46:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46:18Danny Jones?

  Also, are there?

• 1:46:20Speaker 03

  And I think the the volcanoes, I think volcanoes on Io are all

• 1:46:27Danny Jones?

  On what?

• 1:46:28Speaker 03

  Jupiter's moon Io are named after blacksmiths or something like that. Famous blacksmiths from

• 1:46:35Danny Jones?

  There's volcanoes on Jupiter's moons.

• 1:46:37Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Jupiter's moon Io is the most volcanic world in our solar system.

• 1:46:42Danny Jones?

  Whoa.

• 1:46:42Speaker 03

  Tons of volcanoes always going off.

• 1:46:44Danny Jones?

  Really?

• 1:46:45Speaker 03

  Blowing into space even. It's amazing. Yeah, the pictures are amazing. Yeah.

• 1:46:50Danny Jones?

  Are there any other moons that you're aware of that are have the unique features that our moon has with like the distance to the sun that perfectly occludes the sun the way our moon does?

• 1:47:01Speaker 03

  No, no, I don't.

• 1:47:03Danny Jones?

  What do you astronomers make of the moon?

• 1:47:05Speaker 03

  That is a weird coincidence, right? It's a pretty amazing coincidence and um.

• 1:47:10Danny Jones?

  It seems almost impossible.

• 1:47:12Speaker 03

  Probably pretty, it's probably pretty unique in this, in the galaxy even I would imagine for that to happen. I mean, you can, you could be anywhere around a planet and arrange yourself so that it would block almost perfectly right, but not from the surface. That's a, that's a. And the moon moves away from the earth, so that's not going to be like that forever either. And it wasn't always like that. The moon used to be a lot closer.

• 1:47:36Danny Jones?

  How far do we know how, uh, what the speed is the moon is moving away from earth?

• 1:47:40Speaker 03

  I should know this was, this was a Trivial Pursuit question. We had, we were playing Trivial Pursuit at home once and it was a question and I got it wrong because I thought it was a centimeter. I think it's an inch. I think it's an inch, an inch.

• 1:47:56Danny Jones?

  An inch?

• 1:47:58Speaker 03

  I should know this. It's an inch. Um, yeah, thank you.

• 1:48:01Danny Jones?

  The moon is currently moving away from the earth by approximately one and a half inches per year.

• 1:48:05Speaker 03

  It's one and a half inches per year. There it is. Thank you, Google.

• 1:48:08Danny Jones?

  The retreat is due to tidal forces and gravitation, gravitational interaction between earths and the moon.

• 1:48:13Speaker 03

  Yep, energy, energy getting taken up by our oceans.

• 1:48:18Danny Jones?

  So, oh, energy from the oceans?

• 1:48:21Speaker 03

  Well, the moon pulls on the oceans, so it loses gravitational energy by pulling on the oceans. So it's.

• 1:48:27Danny Jones?

  Right, right, right.

• 1:48:28Speaker 03

  And angular momentum exchange, actually.

• 1:48:31Danny Jones?

  Whoa, so, uh.

• 1:48:33Speaker 03

  Inch and a half per year. That's what it was. Yeah.

• 1:48:35Danny Jones?

  So do this math, Steve. Find out how close the moon would have been a billion years ago if it's doing one and a half inches a year.

• 1:48:44Danny Jones?

  Would it be?

• 1:48:46Speaker 03

  A billion?

• 1:48:47Danny Jones?

  Yeah, do the math. Do a billion times 1.5 and see how much closer it be. So it's it's 300 and what 50 million?

• 1:48:54Speaker 03

  It's about 200, it's about 200, it's around 200.

• 1:48:57Danny Jones?

  200,000.

• 1:48:57Speaker 03

  60,000 miles away.

• 1:48:59Danny Jones?

  260,000 miles away right now. So yeah, you would have to do, you would have to do.

• 1:49:05Speaker 03

  You can figure out how many, if you figure out how far it moves in a million years. So it's gonna be a million inches, right?

• 1:49:12Danny Jones?

  A million.

• 1:49:12Speaker 03

  So about 1.5.

• 1:49:14Danny Jones?

  1.5 million inches, right?

• 1:49:16Speaker 03

  1.5 million inches per year.

• 1:49:18Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:49:19Speaker 03

  And how many?

• 1:49:21Danny Jones?

  How many?

• 1:49:21Speaker 03

  How many feet is that gonna be? Let's say it's, let's say 1.2 inches and then we basically have, so it's 1.2 million inches per year is, gives you about point 1 million, so about 100,000 feet per year, a little more than 100,000 feet per year.

• 1:49:38Danny Jones?

  100,000 feet per year?

• 1:49:40Speaker 03

  And you're looking at about 5,000, 5,000 miles per, 5,000 feet per mile. So you're probably looking about.

• 1:49:50Speaker 03

  So what is that gonna be? About 2,000 or 20,000? I'm trying to do the 20,000. So about 20,000 miles difference every million years.

• 1:50:00Danny Jones?

  20,000.

• 1:50:01Speaker 03

  And that's gonna change as it moves away because the gravitational force falls off as one over squared. So it won't be constant.

• 1:50:08Danny Jones?

  Oh, so it's not constant, right?

• 1:50:09Speaker 03

  So it's not a simple, you gotta use some calculus to get the right answer.

• 1:50:12Danny Jones?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:50:12Speaker 03

  But you're looking at something like 20,000 miles per year.

• 1:50:17Danny Jones?

  So as it gets.

• 1:50:18Speaker 03

  Per million years.

• 1:50:18Danny Jones?

  So as it gets farther, is it gonna start moving faster?

• 1:50:23Danny Jones?

  Or is it gonna start slowing down?

• 1:50:24Speaker 03

  I think it should slow down. It should slow down because the interaction gets weaker, so.

• 1:50:29Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm. And also our moon is the only, correct me if I'm wrong, but ours is the only one that's a perfect sphere?

• 1:50:36Danny Jones?

  Like a lot of them are potato, are potatoes, right?

• 1:50:38Speaker 03

  Uh, a lot of the small ones are potatoes shaped, weird shapes, yeah. But the larger ones are pretty, pretty spherical.

• 1:50:45Danny Jones?

  They're all pretty, the larger ones are pretty spherical.

• 1:50:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:49Speaker 03

  Gravity makes things pretty round.

• 1:50:52Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Um, all right. I had to get a quick pee break. I'm gonna tell this guy to turn off his, uh, blower. We'll be right back. We're back. We were, yeah, we were talking about the moon. One quick, uh, one more thing that just popped into my head. You ever heard of a guy? I asked this to like almost everybody. Have you heard of a guy named Hal Povinmeyer?

• 1:51:07Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:51:07Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 1:51:08Speaker 03

  I think I would have remembered that name.

• 1:51:09Danny Jones?

  That's all I have.

• 1:51:10Speaker 03

  Remembered, remembered having heard that name.

• 1:51:14Danny Jones?

  Uh, yeah, I heard a crazy story about this guy who allegedly worked at NASA, who was in charge of mapping the moon and his name was Hal Povinmeyer. So I've asked probably, uh, 50 different people that have come on the show if they've ever heard of him and they never heard of him. Okay. I had this guy, um, on the podcast. I'm sure you're familiar with this guy Bart Seibrell, who wrote the whole, he had, he, his whole identity is revolved around, uh, proving that the moon landings were for, were fake.

• 1:51:39Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 1:51:39Danny Jones?

  Yeah. And he, uh, one of his biggest, um, one of his biggest pieces of evidence that he shows or tries to prove that they were fake is because we can't get through this, this radiation belt called the Van Allen, you know, the Van Allen radiation belt, right? So he says that, uh, it's impossible to send a life form through there and get back and we can't do it. And it's so thick or whatever, that no one will be able to survive. And on top of that, he's like, oh, the moon's too, it's like 250 degrees Fahrenheit or something. Maybe it was more than that and like the sunlight.

• 1:52:08Speaker 03

  Oh, that surface temperature changes dramatically from sunlight to non-sunlight.

• 1:52:11Danny Jones?

  And the shadow, it goes like below 200 degrees Fahrenheit or whatever. And he's like, how could the lunar lander stay there for that long? Blah, blah, blah, blah. And like, you know, he, he's done a bunch of crazy documentaries, trying to show all this evidence of how it was forged. And like when he came in here.

• 1:52:23Speaker 03

  The Japanese probes now have photos of the landing sites.

• 1:52:27Danny Jones?

  The Japanese probes have photos of the landing sites now. Oh, really? And you can see the, like the prints from the, really? After all this time?

• 1:52:35Speaker 03

  Well, then there's no weather. It's not going anywhere.

• 1:52:38Danny Jones?

  Right. There's no weather.

• 1:52:39Speaker 03

  A million years from now, they'll still be there exactly the same. Well, they'll be covered with more dust. Yeah, it won't change. It changes more meteorites hit the moon and create dust, but that's it.

• 1:52:48Danny Jones?

  Right, right.

• 1:52:50Speaker 03

  Eventually be buried in dust, but that's, but the meteorite rate, the cratering rate's so low now. So.

• 1:52:57Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:57Speaker 03

  So it's not going to happen very much.

• 1:52:59Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 1:52:59Speaker 03

  Take a long time.

• 1:53:01Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Yeah. The, the, um.

• 1:53:03Speaker 03

  Our society will be gone and erased from the earth and that'll still be on the moon.

• 1:53:08Danny Jones?

  That long.

• 1:53:10Speaker 03

  Really? Yeah, it'll, yeah, it, it, there was a study out of, it's another NASA study that estimated how long it would take for evidence of our civilization to disappear, and it's something like 20 million years.

• 1:53:25Danny Jones?

  For all evidence, that long?

• 1:53:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:28Danny Jones?

  I would imagine it'd be shorter.

• 1:53:30Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, most, that, that's all, almost all the evidence would be gone. You'd still have some, you'd still have chemical.

• 1:53:36Danny Jones?

  The Washington Monument would probably still be there.

• 1:53:38Speaker 03

  You'd still have chemical evidence, but that's it, but that's it.

• 1:53:41Danny Jones?

  You, I would ima, I would imagine that like, you know, New York City, all the skyscrapers, I think somebody was on here one time and, and told me, and been like, that's as far as my evidence goes, somebody told me at once, that the skyscrapers would basically be disintegrated in something like, uh, 50,000 years or something like that. And, uh, all that would be left as far as like buildings from us would be like the great pyramids, which weren't from us, and like the Washington Monument, the Hoover Dam, big kind of like stone structures.

• 1:54:10Speaker 03

  You've got to go to geological time scales to get rid of those, so.

• 1:54:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:54:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, so that, so that paper, the question was, has there been another civilization before us that we didn't know about?

• 1:54:22Danny Jones?

  Oh.

• 1:54:22Speaker 03

  And that's possible if it's, if it's older than 50, 20 million years ago, yeah.

• 1:54:28Danny Jones?

  Older than 20 million years ago? Why would it have to be that old?

• 1:54:33Speaker 03

  Cause it, cause you would still have evidence of it. So it takes about, it'll take, it would take about 20 million years to get rid of the evidence, geologic time.

• 1:54:41Danny Jones?

  Oh, okay.

• 1:54:43Speaker 03

  But you could have something that was older than that, that you would never know about.

• 1:54:47Danny Jones?

  But we do, I mean, we do have evidence of shit that we don't know how it was constructed, right? Like the pyramids, stone heads, things like this, like, we don't have any, I don't know if you saw, but that guy Zahi Hawass just went on Joe Rogan's podcast, he's like the head of antiquities for, uh, Egypt, and, uh, it was an eye-opening conversation. It was like very dogmatic, like didn't, wasn't open to any of like, any explainable theories of how some of these stones were moved or raised to that level.

• 1:55:13Speaker 03

  The stones are huge. Have you been to Giza?

• 1:55:14Danny Jones?

  I've never been to Giza, no.

• 1:55:15Speaker 03

  They're ginormous. I mean, you could climb up, I mean, one of the stones is like, it's five feet high. I mean, this is. These are giant stones.

• 1:55:22Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:22Speaker 03

  You know, you want to climb up the pyramid. It takes some effort because they're not small. Yeah.

• 1:55:26Danny Jones?

  And inside of the pyramids too, like in some of like the chambers from what I understand is there's, there's a massive pieces of granite, like, like blocks of granite that weigh, you know, hundreds of tons.

• 1:55:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:55:38Danny Jones?

  That were supposed to be, and the conventional explanation by the Egyptologists is that they came from the Aswan quarry, which is like 500 miles away. So these Egyptians would have had to moot, you know, first of all, cut these giant stones, these granite, the hardest, one of the hardest stones on earth.

• 1:55:51Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:55:51Danny Jones?

  And move them 500 miles, then raise them hundreds of feet in the air inside these pyramids and.

• 1:55:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I would love to see this done because it would have been spectacular.

• 1:56:01Danny Jones?

  And the conventional explanation is to how they cut this granite was with pounding stones and copper chisels. That's the archaeological evidence of tools that they had. During that, uh, I think it was the early dynastic, uh, pyramids or when the, the early dynastic Egyptians that built those. And, um, there's just so many, so many unanswered questions. And, um, you know, this kind of goes to, you know, this conversation that we've been having a little bit because it's, it really exposes the dichotomy between academic institutions and sort of like, you know, self-taught people who, who are just looking at this stuff, questioning it from, from, you know, a self-educated standpoint.

• 1:56:45Danny Jones?

  Right? Because there's, there's, there's just this clash of people who spend their lives studying stuff in an academic sense. Who, um, they, they don't just study the fascinating mysteries. They have to study, they have to start from like the ground level to figuring out. You know, doing a lot of the boring work along the, along the way to understand the, the foundations of these societies or these technologies or the history of the stuff and not just necessarily being like, oh, wow, crazy, you know, pyramid. It must've been aliens. Would you have, you have people coming from that, from that perspective and kind of like reverse engineering from there, figuring out, okay. You know, let's just say academic, the academic consensus is this was built with

• 1:57:28Danny Jones?

  copper chisels and pounding stones and moving it with ropes and pulleys. Well, how do you explain these perfectly cut saw blade marks in this granite or these scoop marks out of this granite? It looks like it was melted with some sort of chemical. Or, or these, have you seen these? These are, uh, these are granite vases that were found in the bottom of the Bent Pyramid that were, uh,

• 1:57:51Speaker 03

  Is that a real one?

• 1:57:51Danny Jones?

  This is a 3D print.

• 1:57:55Danny Jones?

  They were scanned. A gentleman who lives close to here, Matt Bell, he bought a bunch of these off the antiquities market and they were supposed to be made around, I think the carbon dating for them is like around 2,500 B.C. So like 4,500 years ago, something like that. And that is the, that's when the, the academic Egyptologists say they were using copper chisels and pounding stones. But this thing is perfectly symmetrical. They measured it with a light scanner and they brought it to a huge aerospace corporation in the U.S., one of the top aerospace companies and they measured it with one of their scanners. And the diameter of this thing from bottom, from

• 1:58:35Danny Jones?

  the top of the lip to the very bottom of it is perfectly symmetrical within the, the biggest deviation in symmetry there is, is like this less than the size of a human hair.

• 1:58:49Danny Jones?

  So, so how do they do that with that technology? This is a mystery. This is something you won't get a reasonable answer from, from somebody in, in academic Egyptology. So,

• 1:58:59Speaker 03

  Wow, yeah.

• 1:59:01Danny Jones?

  You know, this kind of goes to our whole like astronomy versus aliens and you know, how, you know, academics are kind of, they kind of stray away from this stuff.

• 1:59:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, although I, although I, I, people are clever. We really are very clever. And

• 1:59:16Speaker 03

  And unfortunately, we don't know all of the technology that was always used, right?

• 1:59:20Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:21Speaker 03

  And I think that's part of the problem. We don't have records of all of the technology that was developed and.

• 1:59:26Danny Jones?

  If they were using some sort of like ancient chemical slurries or something to make stones stones soft, we probably wouldn't have evidence of that. Or if they had metal tools, power.

• 1:59:36Speaker 03

  And technology gets lost. I mean.

• 1:59:37Danny Jones?

  If they had toasters, we wouldn't see it. We wouldn't have, we wouldn't have any evidence of toasters.

• 1:59:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's right. I mean, and technology gets lost. I mean, the Romans learned how to make cement, right? So you've got the, what is it? The Pantheon, right? Has is a cement dome, right?

• 1:59:52Danny Jones?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:59:53Speaker 03

  It's Roman cement. It's solid. It's still there, right? And, um, and when Brunelleschi wanted to make a dome for the, um, the cathedral in Florence, they didn't know how to make cement. So they made theirs out of brick, right? And they had to go make it out of brick, but, um, because the technology for making cement was lost, but.

• 2:00:12Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:13Speaker 03

  You know, so we don't know a lot of, and then you've got, what is the, the anti cathera mechanism?

• 2:00:18Danny Jones?

  Oh, yes.

• 2:00:19Speaker 03

  I'm pronouncing that right.

• 2:00:20Danny Jones?

  The anti cathera.

• 2:00:21Speaker 03

  That, that actually.

• 2:00:22Danny Jones?

  Was found in the shipwreck, right?

• 2:00:23Speaker 03

  Found in a shipwreck that actually has gears, you know, several hundred years before, um, Da Vinci's gears. And it's, um, so we didn't know they had gear technology back then. We have one example of it, right? And so was that one artisan learned how to make gears and use them? Or where is it a widespread technology? And so that's our those, because you can very often have a gifted artisan come up with their own technology and maybe make that vase like that, right? But, um, but then that gets lost when the person dies.

• 2:00:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:56Speaker 03

  So.

• 2:00:57Danny Jones?

  And they don't have, I mean.

• 2:00:59Speaker 03

  So some of these, I think a lot of this, uh, technology is a complicated thing and complicated stories and type.

• 2:01:06Speaker 03

  And not all technology that gets developed is widely used. It's not all and not just because it's a secret in the government. It could be just a few people just know how to do it.

• 2:01:16Danny Jones?

  Right. Right. And the, and you know, all the records that we use to learn about the shit that was happening thousands of years ago in antiquity is, you know, is written down the, I mean, think of the stuff that before we had the written word, what was going on and how were they able to keep records of it? And how can we study that? Because even the written stuff now is all copies.

• 2:01:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:39Danny Jones?

  It's all been copied and copied and translated. And, you know, it's been thousands of years. So it's just like, we're playing this game of telephone, trying to get the most

• 2:01:47Speaker 03

  It's a game of telephone.

• 2:01:48Danny Jones?

  The most accurate possible picture.

• 2:01:50Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:01:50Danny Jones?

  That we can. But some of these things don't, some stuff just doesn't add up. And there's people that are in these, you know, some of these ivory tower institutions that just aren't going to let go of it.

• 2:02:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, you get these, these simplistic pet theories that just won't go away. Yeah, that's true. And you really, that's really why you have to look at all the data. You've got to explain everything. And if you can't explain why that vase is so symmetric, you've got a problem.

• 2:02:18Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, those are the anomalies, right?

• 2:02:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah. But it's like, it's so, it's such, it's so disheartening when you just, it's, it's like human beings, they just like, we prefer to argue about who's right versus like trying to maybe have an open mind and maybe look at this from a different angle and try, but it's like, we don't want to rewrite history, though. You know, that's the thing. We don't, we don't, we don't want to undo all of that work.

• 2:02:46Speaker 03

  That's part of our worldview, and we don't like changing worldviews. That's a problem.

• 2:02:50Danny Jones?

  Yes. And, you know, this is, this is one of the things that I've been thinking about a lot is the, the way humans have evolved forever with the development of technology and how it's changed us. Like,

• 2:03:08Danny Jones?

  Before we had the written word or our ability to store our memory outside of our brains, I'm sure that we had, I mean, I imagine we must have had a far greater degree of sensory abilities to, to sense other things in nature that we may not be able to sense now, or the things that have atrophied, right? Because it's, it's obvious, I mean, I would imagine that our memory, wouldn't our memory had to have been far greater back before we were able to store our memory and store things on, on phones or on, on, in writing and stuff like this with

• 2:03:53Danny Jones?

  technology? Like you were alluding to before, how now, you know, when the Apollo astronauts were able to figure out the stars, to figure out exactly where they were before they had the ability to just like figure it out on with AI and a computer, you know, they were, they, they had, their minds were, whoa, what the fuck? What was that?

• 2:04:11Danny Jones?

  This thing just fell off. Uh, I'm gonna say that leaf blower hero is...

• 2:04:16Danny Jones?

  Is that thing really loud right now?

• 2:04:17Danny Jones?

  It's getting loud, yeah.

• 2:04:19Danny Jones?

  Alright, let me go talk to this guy.

• 2:04:21Danny Jones?

  Be sure to remember your thought, because you stopped in the middle.

• 2:04:24Danny Jones?

  Give him 20 bucks. Yeah, no, I imagine that with like, technology, the evolution of technology, uh, in relativity to, uh, the evolution of human beings, I would imagine that technology is eventually going to compensate for a lot of our abilities and a lot of like the function of the brain, right? Because like, how I was explaining, like, I think ancient humans probably had far more sensory abilities than we do now, like how now we've become more lazy, rely on AI and technology to do all these things, including compensate for our memory. So I like wonder how that is going to affect us.

• 2:05:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, I suppose you could still look at that with some, some existing cultures that still pass things down verbally, right? That would be interesting. People who study that probably would have a lot to say about our memory and...

• 2:05:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:05:14Speaker 03

  How that works and how they were able to... In code cultural information that way. That's interesting.

• 2:05:21Danny Jones?

  Yeah, yeah, I would be, it would be, it would be interesting to see a study on like, you know, like, I know there's a lot of, there's a lot of people right now that are, you know, there's a lot of uncontacted tribes that are just completely disconnected from the rest of the technological world.

• 2:05:35Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:05:36Danny Jones?

  You know, just like imagine the civilization that we have now, like in the most advanced metropolitan cities on earth, you know, you have Dubai and simultaneously on the other side of the world, you have people running around naked. You know, so like, couldn't it have been, if you go back 50 to 100, 200,000 years, wouldn't it be possible that there could have been two types of civilizations there? Maybe a really advanced one and maybe a not so advanced one that saw some sort of, some sort of catastrophe coming or could have foreseen some sort of cataclysmic events coming and they were able to like escape or go underwater or whatever.

• 2:06:15Speaker 03

  It's one of the theories for what the UAP are, right? And being underwater too. We don't, we don't know who creates these things and who these people are.

• 2:06:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:25Speaker 03

  Are they humans from the future? Are the humans from the past? Are they?

• 2:06:28Danny Jones?

  Are they both?

• 2:06:29Speaker 03

  Both? Are they humans that broke off of the rest of us first at some point in time? It's a lot of, or are they extraterrestrials? You know, through all those possibilities too.

• 2:06:40Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

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• 2:07:41Danny Jones?

  Um, so what were you, you were explaining briefly on our break, you have a friend who, who's your friend that had that nuclear?

• 2:07:47Speaker 03

  Oh, yes, my friend Matthew.

• 2:07:50Danny Jones?

  Are you kidding me?

• 2:07:52Speaker 06

  Ha ha, fool that Danny Jones. Take this.

• 2:07:57Danny Jones?

  You gotta be kidding me. Before we took another break, I was asking you about your friend who came up with that nuclear.

• 2:08:06Speaker 03

  Oh, Matthew, yes.

• 2:08:07Danny Jones?

  Yeah, Matthew.

• 2:08:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, we were, so we were, especially after our Catalina mission. Matthew and I were brainstorming about how we might be able to get the attention of UFOs. How could you, how could you get some of their attention and have them come and check you out, right? What could you do? You know, and so we started with simple ideas. What if we went out in a boat and just lit off a bunch of fireworks and then wait and see what happens, right? Or something, but yeah, that's not that interesting and that happens a bit and they're probably not interested in that, but.

• 2:08:41Danny Jones?

  Scoot this way just a little bit.

• 2:08:43Speaker 03

  You know, so.

• 2:08:44Danny Jones?

  Yeah, there you go.

• 2:08:45Speaker 03

  So, so the question is what, what are they interested in? Well, they're interested in our nuclear weapon sites, right? So, so how do they, how do you think they detect them? Well, there's really only, you know, two main ways you could do it. You could detect camera rays coming off of them, you know, unless there's lots of shielding, in which case the only thing you can't shield are neutrinos, right? So maybe they can detect neutrinos, but that's hard to imagine because neutrinos don't interact with very much, which is why we use giant tanks of water to try to catch a neutrino, right? So.

• 2:09:19Speaker 03

  So we were thinking, yeah, it'd be cool if you could get, um, then what if we had, if we had a small, small nuclear reactor, we could have a small nuclear reactor start it up and whatever it pumps out, you know, the radiation it pumps out, they'll see it and they'll come check it out and we can study them. I mean, we're just brainstorming and, you know, kind of like you would if you were 10 years old, right? Just coming up with crazy ideas and what can you do? And neither one of us would dream of taking a nuclear reactor out into the public somewhere to try to, I mean, highly illegal, highly dangerous and highly dangerous for us and everybody, you know, you don't do, you just don't do things

• 2:09:57Speaker 03

  like that. So, um, so we were just brainstorming and, um, and a few weeks later, he comes, Matthew comes to me, he goes, I have this great idea on how we can make a nuclear reactor. I'm like, but we can't really use that thing. He goes, no, but the idea for a nuclear reactor is kind of cool. You gotta listen to this. So he explains to me, he's got this idea for a lithium fission reaction. And of course, my first thought is, you know, like what most physicists would think, well, you use fission for heavy nuclei, which, and iron's the most stable. So fission is when you break apart a nucleus, right? So uranium, you, you give

• 2:10:42Speaker 03

  it a neutron, it becomes unstable and breaks apart and you get energy from that, but it makes two smaller nuclei. So you break apart big ones and plutonium is the same way. So I was like, well, lithium, that's lithium comes, you know, right after helium, right? So it's very light nucleus. And I said, well, lithium, you mean fusion, right? And he goes, no, no, no, fission. I'm like, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. How, how does this work? He goes, you can, you could actually, you can actually get, if you add neutrons, you can have nuclear fission, you can have them, the nuclei will break apart into tritium, which

• 2:11:23Speaker 03

  is heavy hydrogen. And then this tritium is a radioactive gas, which two good things about it, one is it only has a half-life of 25 years, not like 25,000 years, like something like uranium or plutonium that you have to bury and hope that nobody goes there for the next 25,000 years. But this only has a half-life of 25 years and it's hydrogen, so it escapes to space, basically.

• 2:11:48Speaker 03

  And um, so that's very nice. And you could actually use the tritium in other nuclear reactors as well. So you could actually collect the tritium and use it. So this is a cool reactor. And um, so he actually set up, set out to actually build, build this thing and he, and he did it. Yeah, I mean, has a, has a lithium crystal that he got and he's um,

• 2:12:11Danny Jones?

  The what?

• 2:12:12Speaker 03

  It's a, it's a, it's a lithium fluoride crystal that he got and um, and he is, you, it's a subcritical reaction. So you have to add, it only works while you're adding neutrons. It'll keep itself running for a little while, but it dies down. It doesn't, it isn't going to blow. It's not possible for it to blow up, which is the other good thing about it.

• 2:12:32Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:12:33Speaker 03

  So he likes to call it instead of the demon core, which is what they had with plutonium, right? That was actually dangerous. He calls this the angel core, which is a kind of a nice name. I like that name actually. Yeah. So it's a, so he calls it the angel core because it's not dangerous. And um, and he has done, already done experiments activating it with neutrons. And yeah, you can get the thing running and producing energy. Pretty amazing. Yeah.

• 2:13:00Danny Jones?

  And how mu, and you were explaining so like the side of as much of that stuff you could fit in like a little mug like that would last for how long?

• 2:13:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was something like the piece he has is about the size of this coffee cup. And he's, and if I remember right, um, I don't, I'm not misquoting him, but it was something this big could produce enough power to power your house for a million years. Which is amazing. I mean, it's a game changer. It's a huge deal.

• 2:13:24Danny Jones?

  And what, what is standing in his way from implementing something like this? Or like?

• 2:13:29Speaker 03

  Oh, you need money to do the tests. You need money to do tests. You need to figure out how to get the energy out of it because the energy is coming in, coming out in, um, in the form of, you know, um,

• 2:13:44Speaker 03

  High-energy particles. So you've got to convert those high-energy particles to electricity to be able to use it and so on. And that's, that's the classic problem from nuclear power. Because nuclear power, you get, you have to couple this 21st century technology with 18th century technology, steam engines, right? You use the high-energy powers, particles to heat up water, boil water, make steam, and you power a steam engine. So nuclear power has been pretty crummy because you can't couple this nuclear technology with, you know, mechanical technology easily.

• 2:14:18Danny Jones?

  Hmm.

• 2:14:19Speaker 03

  And so he's been working on that as well.

• 2:14:23Danny Jones?

  Yeah, something like that. I mean, it's, it's amazing that more funding and research and, and focus isn't going to things like that. That could literally change the trajectory of humanity.

• 2:14:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, there's been, I mean, main, the, the little focus that's been, has been in fusion research, which is reasonable, but, um, but you should be funding other things too. I mean, you have to, you, and typically you've got two types of fusion research that's been done. You've got laser and, you know, laser confinement fusion, where you shine laser beams on hydrogen pellets and get them to implode. Or you've got magnetic confusion, or magnetic confinement fusion, where you hold a plasma and make hydrogen plasma in a magnetic field and you pinch it with the magnetic field and make it, compress it and make it fuse. So you've got those two different types and they compete for funding, right?

• 2:15:17Speaker 03

  So almost all the funding goes to those things. There had been some funding, some, some work done, actually at RPI, had been done in sono fusion, which is with air bubbles in, air bubbles in purified water, you can actually use sound waves to compress them and you can get fusion that way. And so that can be done on tabletop. And, and there had been some research done on that and that got nixed by competitors and a lot of drama. So that was done at RPI for a while.

• 2:15:58Speaker 03

  But a lot of these ideas that really haven't been explored because there's no money to explore them because the money goes to the money, the little money there is goes to the big ones, you know, laser fusion or or magnetic confinement fusion. So.

• 2:16:13Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's just shocking that like there's like not people out there with an exorbitant amounts of money like Elon Musk type people who would be willing to throw money at something like this that could change the paradigm.

• 2:16:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, that would be worthwhile.

• 2:16:26Danny Jones?

  Yeah, you would imagine. Frustrating.

• 2:16:29Speaker 03

  It is hard. I mean, when you're making new discoveries, you really have to explore lots of possibilities. And this is what nature does when, you know, you can see it in evolution, the pre Cambrian explosion, right? This is the explosion of the evolution of many types of life forms in the pre Cambrian era. You know, when you have the first, you know, you have the first animals, right? There are many different kinds. And then most of them die out because they don't work. And then the ones that survive are good ones and they keep going, right? And they evolve. And that's how you should do it. Yeah. And that's what you saw with the bicycle. The bicycle gets invented. And what happens? You get an explosion with many different kinds of bicycles. You got bicycles with giant wheels in the front, giant wheels in the back, which didn't work well. So they you only saw a few of those.

• 2:17:14Speaker 03

  And you try everything and see what works. And the same thing should be happening with other technological advances, like, you know, like nuclear power. Yeah, try, try some of these other ideas, put some money into it, see what happens.

• 2:17:28Danny Jones?

  Yeah. Fascinating stuff, Kevin. Thanks again for coming and doing this, man. I really learned a lot today.

• 2:17:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Thank you for having me. This has been great fun.

• 2:17:36Danny Jones?

  Where can people that are listening or watching find out more of your research? Do you have a website or any social media stuff?

• 2:17:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have a website at the University at Albany. So you can search for me there. And my colleague Matthew Shadagas does too. So you can search for both of us there.

• 2:17:51Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 2:17:52Speaker 03

  We have our UAPX website, which is right now, we're, we're working more closely with SCU, the Scientific Coalition for UAP Studies and.

• 2:18:03Danny Jones?

  All right.

• 2:18:04Speaker 03

  So you can Google and find us. Yep.

• 2:18:07Danny Jones?

  Fantastic. Oh, look at that.

• 2:18:09Speaker 03

  There's our UAPX website.

• 2:18:10Danny Jones?

  There we go. Amazing. Well, we'll link it all below and hopefully we can get to the bottom of this.

• 2:18:15Speaker 03

  All right. Thank you so much.

• 2:18:16Danny Jones?

  Do it again soon. All right.

• 2:18:17Speaker 03

  That'd be great.

• 2:18:17Danny Jones?

  Good night, everybody.

• 2:18:19Speaker 07

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