#283 - Antichrist vs Exorcist Debate: Who is the REAL Christ? | Ammon Hillman & Bob Larson

Watch this episode uncensored & ad-free on Patreon: https://patreon.com/dannyjones Phd classicist Ammon Hillman debates exorcist Bob Larson on the Bible, ancient Greek & Jesus Christ. GUEST LINKS Ammon's YouTube Channel: @ladybabylon666 Bob's YouTube channel: @boblarsonexorcism Bob's website: https://boblarson.org FOLLOW DANNY JONES https://www.instagram.com/dannyjones https://twitter.com/jonesdanny OUTLINE 00:00 - Exorcism on Danny 10:43 - Ammon confronts Bob 22:00 - Aristotle turned Ammon away from God 32:32 - Christianity blocks you from Aphrodite 41:05 - Ammon's name origins 48:06 - Queen of Babylon Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  So are they rolling right now?

• 0:08Danny Jones?

  I don't know. Are we rolling?

• 0:10Speaker 00

  Uh, yeah.

• 0:11Danny Jones?

  Okay, yes, we are rolling. So, wait, wait, wait. You were explaining to me how I could give myself to Jesus.

• 0:18Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 0:19Danny Jones?

  Is this okay? Okay.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  And the answer to that, an amen knows what I'm gonna say.

• 0:26Danny Jones?

  Mm-hmm. Steve, have you got me a white rag, please?

• 0:30Speaker 00

  It's both faith and trust in Christ.

• 0:36Speaker 00

  Jesus said, "If you're going to follow me, you have to deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow me." Now, picking up the cross is an allusion to all sorts of ways of self-negation. But you have to make God's will your will. You have to want His thoughts to be your thoughts, and to live a life pleasing to Him. That's not a perfectionist journey. It's a journey of faith. Of the Bible talks about gradually being transformed into the image of Christ.

• 1:14Speaker 00

  That can take a lifetime. It certainly can take a lot of years or months. But it means just stepping off one path to the other path by saying

• 1:27Speaker 00

  what Romans 10, 9, and 10 in the Bible tells us to say, says,

• 1:33Speaker 00

  "If you believe in your heart that God has raised Christ from the dead, and you confess it with your mouth, you will be saved. For with the heart man believes the righteousness of God,

• 1:53Speaker 00

  with the mouth he makes confession to that truth." Now, I've added a few colloquialisms. They're in it, but just to make it understandable to you in basic language.

• 2:05Danny Jones?

  Do I have to go to confession?

• 2:08Danny Jones?

  Do I have to confess my sins to anybody?

• 2:10Speaker 00

  To God.

• 2:11Danny Jones?

  Just to God?

• 2:12Speaker 00

  Here and now.

• 2:16Speaker 00

  You know what they are.

• 2:17Danny Jones?

  I confess my sins on every podcast. I don't hide anything.

• 2:21Speaker 00

  Of course you have sins.

• 2:25Speaker 00

  Your worst sin is rejecting Christ.

• 2:29Danny Jones?

  I don't necessarily reject Christ.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  Yes, you do.

• 2:32Danny Jones?

  I don't think I reject him.

• 2:33Speaker 00

  It's not a...

• 2:34Danny Jones?

  I believe Christ was a real person.

• 2:37Speaker 00

  Wait a minute. You're rejecting who he said he was. All right.

• 2:43Danny Jones?

  So that's where...

• 2:44Speaker 00

  We're not talking about a malicious, malignant, evil, deliberate defiance of God.

• 2:53Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 2:54Speaker 00

  We're talking about...

• 2:55Danny Jones?

  I'm skeptical. I'm skeptical.

• 2:58Speaker 00

  That's fine.

• 3:01Danny Jones?

  That's my job to be skeptical. I'm a journalist.

• 3:03Speaker 00

  Then maybe this is your first step on the path to God. For some people, it doesn't happen necessarily in an instant. It's progressive.

• 3:17Speaker 00

  But they have to at least say a prayer that quantifies the possibility of who Christ is and what he claimed. So if you say, and I've had many people who on their own have just gotten on their knees and said, "Christ, if you are

• 3:43Speaker 00

  who Christianity says you are, if you are truly God,

• 3:48Speaker 00

  I need you to show that to me.

• 3:53Speaker 00

  I need you to prove that to me in some way."

• 3:57Speaker 00

  God's willing to do that. It may not happen today or tomorrow.

• 4:02Speaker 00

  Could happen now, but it might be a process where any number of things happen that are just God coincidences.

• 4:10Danny Jones?

  Hmm. My skepticism comes in where people like you and you and people like you say these things that sound good, right? But all this stuff is coming from texts.

• 4:24Speaker 02

  Priceline Negotiator. It's me, the Priceline Negotiator. We don't need the jingle twice. What about a third time? Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights and rental cars. Seems like they just said it. Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app. Time to read the tagline. Fine. No one deals more deals than Priceline. Please stop. Priceline. Touche. Priceline.

• 4:54Speaker 03

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• 5:25Danny Jones?

  And I don't know how to read the texts. And everybody says the texts say something different.

• 5:29Speaker 00

  Not everybody says that. Certain individuals may say that.

• 5:33Danny Jones?

  People in Christianity, in theology that subscribe or ascribe to that religion, they all say the same thing. People that are outside that religion say different things. People like Dr. Hillman say different things. Everyone has their own interpretation of these texts. I don't know what's real.

• 5:52Speaker 00

  You simply say, Jesus Christ, if you are the Son of God, if you are the Creator of all that exists, if you gave me the breath of life, I need you in some way to show that to me.

• 6:15Speaker 00

  Because I'm not ready to make what Kierkegaard called the leap of faith.

• 6:20Danny Jones?

  Right. So I need to ask that.

• 6:23Speaker 00

  You need to ask God.

• 6:24Danny Jones?

  And see what happens.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  Just repeat after me.

• 6:26Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  And don't say anything you don't want to say.

• 6:28Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 6:34Speaker 00

  Say, Jesus Christ.

• 6:35Danny Jones?

  Jesus Christ.

• 6:38Speaker 00

  If you are God's son.

• 6:40Danny Jones?

  If you are God's son.

• 6:44Speaker 00

  If you always existed in eternity past.

• 6:48Danny Jones?

  If you always existed in eternity past.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  If it is true.

• 6:55Danny Jones?

  If it is true.

• 6:59Speaker 00

  The only forgiveness of sins.

• 7:02Danny Jones?

  The only forgiveness of sins.

• 7:05Speaker 00

  Is your death upon the cross.

• 7:07Danny Jones?

  Is your death upon the cross.

• 7:09Speaker 00

  I need to know that.

• 7:10Danny Jones?

  I need to know that.

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Show that to me, Lord.

• 7:15Danny Jones?

  Show that to me, Lord.

• 7:18Speaker 00

  And?

• 7:19Danny Jones?

  And?

• 7:21Speaker 00

  I will hand you all of my sins.

• 7:23Danny Jones?

  I will hand you all of my sins.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  To be forgiven.

• 7:27Danny Jones?

  To be forgiven.

• 7:29Speaker 00

  And walk a newness of life.

• 7:32Danny Jones?

  And walk the newness of life.

• 7:37Speaker 00

  Now, if you had.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  You really meant that and you embraced Christ now, I'd love to get some water and baptize you, but I won't do that. You're not ready for that shit, but.

• 7:48Danny Jones?

  Should I let him baptize?

• 7:49Speaker 00

  What, what? That's your decision, bro. What kind of, what kind of?

• 7:53Danny Jones?

  What's in that water?

• 7:54Speaker 00

  Nothing.

• 7:55Danny Jones?

  How do you make it?

• 7:56Speaker 00

  My prayer.

• 7:58Danny Jones?

  There's no chemicals in there?

• 7:59Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no, no, no. Baptismal water is simply a symbolic representation of dying to self and living to Christ. Because the scripture says in Romans, chapter six, that we are buried with Christ in baptism in the death, in death. That as he was raised from the dead to the glory of God, his father, we will be raised again to a new life in Christ. So it's just, just. It's just one of what's called the ordinances or the sacraments, depending on your theological position of the church. And through that, you express faith. So now

• 8:46Speaker 00

  you've put God on the spot, so to speak. If you meant what you said, and now you have to be open to God working in your life, and you don't know how that's gonna happen.

• 8:58Speaker 00

  It could be one of a million ways that God now will step in and show you what you were made for and created for. You have a brilliant mind. You have a quick mind. You have the ability to do incredibly great things. I'm not saying that to be facetious. I'm saying that in all honesty, you are and you're you're essentially a good person.

• 9:28Danny Jones?

  I try to be.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, with what tools you have. But you have to understand that the Christian life, Paul said, "This life that I live in my body, I live by the faith of the Son of God. For it is not me, but it is Christ within me." If Christ was not in me, I would have been dead a long time ago. Because the demons would have killed me. But they can't, because I belong to Christ. And so what you basically do is you you build these walls of protection around you and your family by faith in God.

• 10:13Speaker 00

  Now, that's not to say nothing bad will ever happen. Sometimes bad things do happen.

• 10:17Danny Jones?

  Now, let me ask you this. By repeating all those things you just told me, am I opening myself up to any vulnerability with demons?

• 10:23Speaker 00

  No, absolutely.

• 10:25Danny Jones?

  I'm protecting myself against the demons.

• 10:26Speaker 00

  In fact, quite the contrary. You have just served notice on the devil that you've taken a first step toward God. Now, they have to start backing away. Not a long ways away, but they start back, uh-oh, oh, no, oh, no. What are we going to do now? Now, they're scrambling. They're thinking, all right, we got to do this. We got to do this. We got to do this. We got to do this.

• 10:56Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 10:57Speaker 00

  Don't worry about them. Keep your eyes on God. Just that simple.

• 11:04Danny Jones?

  So now I can watch out for any sort of signs that I get from God?

• 11:08Speaker 00

  But you got to be looking for them.

• 11:10Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  You got to be saying every day, "God..."

• 11:14Speaker 00

  I'm looking for that truth that you're real.

• 11:20Speaker 00

  I don't want to wax poetic here, but you know, it might be a sunset. Like it would just be a beautiful day and you just say, wow, I'm grateful for this day, God. Whoops, why'd I say that?

• 11:34Danny Jones?

  I see. I understand.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  I'm thanking God for life.

• 11:37Danny Jones?

  Right.

• 11:38Speaker 00

  There it is.

• 11:39Danny Jones?

  Okay, I understand.

• 11:40Speaker 00

  See what happens next? You got my phone number.

• 11:42Danny Jones?

  Okay. I want to ask you if you think, based on everything you've learned about Amen and listening to podcasts, do you think that he is truly possessed by a demon?

• 11:52Speaker 00

  Unquestionably. Unquestionably. I can't see his face. That's the only problem because of these lights here, but that's okay.

• 11:59Speaker 04

  You put some light on my face?

• 12:00Speaker 00

  I can't.

• 12:01Speaker 04

  Am I gonna look like trash in this?

• 12:03Danny Jones?

  No, you look great. Show, can you show a picture of Amen on the camera?

• 12:06Speaker 00

  I can't see past his shirt.

• 12:07Danny Jones?

  There we go. Go to the solo, go to the solo on.

• 12:11Speaker 04

  Look, I have a glow.

• 12:12Danny Jones?

  Look, oh, he looks gorgeous.

• 12:14Speaker 04

  God. If you can't get in with that, something's wrong with you, baby.

• 12:20Speaker 00

  He wore that shirt for me today and he knows it.

• 12:23Speaker 04

  I did. Do you know who this is?

• 12:26Speaker 00

  You tell me.

• 12:27Danny Jones?

  That shirt?

• 12:27Speaker 04

  No, that's okay. I'm not your.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  I mean the shirt on the outside.

• 12:31Speaker 04

  I'm not your tour guide. I have a question. I have a question from the devil. The devil keeps telling me, Bob, he keeps telling me, yeah, but the problem is Bob has never read the Bible. I tell all my seminary and students when I was teaching at a seminary, I told all of them the first day of class, I said.

• 12:51Danny Jones?

  Oh, sorry, hold on. Put that right there.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Oh, is this a hearing device? Sorry, Bob, sorry. Um, I tell, I tell my seminary students the first day of class, um, you've never read the Bible and they all give me a dirty look, Bob.

• 13:06Speaker 00

  Well, I know where you're going with this.

• 13:08Speaker 04

  They all give me a dirty look. Well, let me go there. I'm a classical philologist.

• 13:13Speaker 00

  Why go there? I know where you're going.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  This is why the Harvard people won't come. I am a classical philologist.

• 13:18Speaker 00

  I know where you are. I've watched the videos.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  And you have never read the Bible. Tell me what a Christ is.

• 13:22Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  What is a Christ?

• 13:23Speaker 00

  I'm not going to tell you that.

• 13:24Speaker 04

  Because you don't know, Bob.

• 13:26Speaker 00

  Wait a minute.

• 13:26Speaker 04

  What is a Christ?

• 13:27Speaker 00

  Wait a minute. I did not agree.

• 13:29Speaker 04

  How is he supposed to believe? If you don't know what a Christ is or what a gospel is, that's why the people at Harvard.

• 13:36Speaker 00

  And I will either.

• 13:40Speaker 00

  Get up and walk out of here.

• 13:41Speaker 04

  Okay, why? Cause cowardice? If I'm possessed.

• 13:44Danny Jones?

  Let's be respectful. Let's be respectful.

• 13:46Speaker 04

  No, he just.

• 13:47Danny Jones?

  No, no, no. We gotta be nice to each other. We gotta be nice. That's the only way this is gonna happen.

• 13:53Speaker 00

  Understood, understood.

• 13:54Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 13:55Speaker 00

  Now.

• 13:55Danny Jones?

  Let's just discuss the facts, the texts, and everything we're here to discuss, and let's not call each other names or be rude.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  Thank you, Danny.

• 14:01Danny Jones?

  Okay, is that okay, Bob?

• 14:02Speaker 00

  I was thinking, as I stepped out of the room a moment ago, that it would be a good idea. Where are you in New Mexico?

• 14:12Speaker 04

  I'm in, I'm in Taos, New Mexico.

• 14:15Speaker 00

  Taos? Of course, why not? The New Age capital of New Mexico.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  Right off of, no, no, no. I'm not into any hippie stuff. I can't stand hippies.

• 14:24Speaker 00

  Okay, okay.

• 14:25Speaker 04

  I've been studying Greek and the Bible for the last thirty-five years. That's what I wanna talk about. I wanna talk about the Bible.

• 14:33Speaker 00

  I, I, I'm just, I would like to suggest.

• 14:36Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 14:38Speaker 00

  That to really have a candid conversation.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  Uh huh.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  No cameras. You get in your car and drive down to Phoenix.

• 14:49Speaker 04

  Yeah, but that makes you look like a coward.

• 14:50Speaker 00

  And I will be happy to spend time with you. Normally, we ask for a donation to help cover my staffing and facilities.

• 15:02Speaker 04

  Because you're greedy, Bob. It's flim flam.

• 15:03Speaker 00

  But.

• 15:03Danny Jones?

  You gotta be nice. Listen.

• 15:04Speaker 00

  I will be happy.

• 15:06Speaker 04

  Oh, God.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  I will be happy.

• 15:08Speaker 04

  With the devil back!

• 15:09Speaker 00

  I will be happy to provide you with a complimentary exorcism session.

• 15:16Speaker 04

  No, thank you. I don't, I don't have a demon, Bob. I wanted to talk about the Bible. I don't have a demon.

• 15:22Speaker 00

  Which would be.

• 15:23Danny Jones?

  First of all, wait, wait, wait. We have to, we have to appreciate the fact that Bob is the only one who has the balls to come in here and talk to you.

• 15:31Speaker 04

  Oh, that's kudos. Big balls.

• 15:33Danny Jones?

  No one else will do it.

• 15:34Speaker 04

  Nobody, Bob. And this was Harvard people. This was Harvard.

• 15:38Danny Jones?

  Let him go, let him go.

• 15:38Speaker 00

  But you're not letting me talk.

• 15:40Danny Jones?

  Don't talk.

• 15:40Speaker 04

  Please, go ahead, go ahead.

• 15:41Speaker 00

  You're not, you're trying to control the agenda, so just let.

• 15:44Danny Jones?

  That's why I'm here.

• 15:45Speaker 00

  Let me finish speaking. Where it's just you and me, and maybe a ministry associate there with me. And that we have a candid conversation about you and your life and your beliefs, and I'm very happy to do that. But that would have to be in a setting. Where there's transparency and honesty and we can have an exchange without playing to the galleries.

• 16:15Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely. That's a great, wonderful idea. If I were demon possessed, Bob, but I'm not demon possessed, and I don't need your spiritual help. I was coming to you as one former man of God to another person who appreciates the Bible, Bob, and I just want to know, please tell me, why was Jesus arrested in a public park with a naked kid?

• 16:37Speaker 00

  This is the reason I didn't want you around in this room when I talked with him is because you're a control freak trying to get the upper hand on everything. So just be a human.

• 16:46Speaker 04

  One answer. That's the only question I'll ask you. That's it.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  Just talk to me. Talk to me as a human being.

• 16:50Danny Jones?

  Just ask him kindly what your question is.

• 16:53Speaker 00

  As a human being.

• 16:54Speaker 04

  When Jesus was arrested in Gethsemane with a naked kid screaming, "I'm not a child or Lasteis."

• 17:01Speaker 00

  We know what you think about. Okay.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  Could it be that he was actually...

• 17:04Speaker 00

  I'm about 30 seconds from walking out.

• 17:06Danny Jones?

  We have to take turns. I'm gonna ask the question, and then we have to stop, and we have to let Bob give his response.

• 17:11Speaker 04

  That's reasonable. When Jesus Christ was arrested in Gethsemane at 4:00 a.m. with a naked boy screaming, "I am not a child or Lasteis in Greek," could it actually be, Bob, that he was a creep doing creepy things?

• 17:29Danny Jones?

  Bob, the stage is yours.

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Are you suggesting that Christ was a [BLEEP]?

• 17:37Speaker 04

  No, I'm saying...

• 17:38Speaker 00

  Are you saying that he was a [BLEEP]?

• 17:40Speaker 04

  No, I'm saying the text says that Jesus Christ...

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Are you saying that Christ was a [BLEEP] based upon what you think the text said?

• 17:47Danny Jones?

  I think what he's saying is no, he doesn't believe it. He's not stating his own beliefs. What he's saying is he is repeating...

• 17:54Speaker 04

  I'm not interested in arguments. I'm saying the text. I want the real Jesus.

• 17:57Speaker 00

  That is intellectual dishonesty, and you know it, and you're not going to overpower me the way you normally do people. It's no wonder nobody wants to talk to you. Okay? So if you are suggesting in any way, shape, or form on any evidentiary basis that you have in your mind that Christ did that, there's no dialogue that we can have. I still, I'm still willing to meet with you in private.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Where there's no need for you to have to play to an audience and no need for me to prove anything to anybody.

• 18:40Speaker 04

  Have you read this, Bob? Have you actually read the Bible?

• 18:43Speaker 00

  You're just a broken record.

• 18:44Speaker 04

  No, no, I want to talk about the text.

• 18:47Speaker 00

  You do not possess the, you honestly don't possess the intellectual latitude to move outside of a predetermined frame of reference where you can beat your drum, and I'm not going to buy into that, okay? You're not.

• 19:02Speaker 04

  Is that me or the demon?

• 19:03Speaker 00

  You're not.

• 19:04Danny Jones?

  Why are you questioning whether or not Bob has read the Bible? What do you think? If there's something, if there's possible that he missed something, what do you think that is?

• 19:13Speaker 04

  You know, because Bob does what Bible scholars always do, and New Testament theologians, divinity degrees, they don't have access to that ground-based material. They, it's a...

• 19:24Danny Jones?

  And you're referring to the original sources?

• 19:27Speaker 04

  To the philology. They don't have access to the text, right?

• 19:30Speaker 00

  Well, what we have here...

• 19:31Danny Jones?

  Okay, hold on.

• 19:32Speaker 00

  What we have here is you against the world, you against 2,000 years of church history, you against the most esteemed scholars in the world, and quite frankly, I don't think you match up, and I'm not willing to have that debate because it's a dishonest debate.

• 19:50Speaker 04

  What's a Christ?

• 19:51Speaker 00

  In my opinion, okay. No, I know where you're going with that, and there's no point with the translation.

• 19:55Speaker 04

  Why, Bob? You tell everybody what a Christ is. You just converted this man.

• 19:59Speaker 00

  Just tell me.

• 20:00Speaker 04

  What is a Christ?

• 20:01Speaker 00

  No, we didn't convert him. What we did was to nudge him along the pathway.

• 20:05Danny Jones?

  I just gave up. I just gave myself to Christ. I just, I just opened my heart to Christ.

• 20:10Speaker 00

  You did give a measure of your life to Christ, and that is a great step to take.

• 20:14Danny Jones?

  So Amin told me, and 2 million people on my podcast, most of which believe what he is saying, because we have no way of discerning whether he's telling the lying or not, we have no way of finding out, reading these texts, but the way Amin described it to us, and there's millions of views on this stuff, that the word Christ in ancient Greek, the first time the word Christ was ever used in the history of humanity was for somebody that was using drugs.

• 20:39Speaker 00

  Okay, well, that's the gospel according to Amin.

• 20:42Danny Jones?

  No, no, not the gospel. He's talking about text earlier.

• 20:45Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no, that's the gospel according to him. That's what I'm saying. All right.

• 20:49Speaker 04

  No, that was Diaborus, essentially.

• 20:51Speaker 00

  So...

• 20:53Speaker 00

  We're going to discard the canonization of scripture, all the councils of the church that have been held throughout the ages, at great time effort and intellectual energy to go through all of these issues over and over again. And we're just gonna, because of this guy, throw them out the window? And say they don't matter anymore because I am the Greek scholar who knows the truth.

• 21:20Danny Jones?

  I don't think we need to throw anything out the window. All I'm looking for-

• 21:24Speaker 00

  Yes, we are.

• 21:24Danny Jones?

  I'm not, personally. And I know you're not. I don't think, I think it's okay that he is. I think it's okay that he is. But I don't think-

• 21:30Speaker 00

  He's entitled to have his position.

• 21:32Danny Jones?

  Of course. As so are you, and so am I. But my, my goal here is to just have a dialogue. No one's willing to have this dialogue, and I think it's freaking incredible that we're able to have this dialogue.

• 21:42Speaker 00

  We're not having a dialogue. We're not having a dialogue-

• 21:44Danny Jones?

  We're attempting to have a dialogue here.

• 21:45Speaker 00

  Because he is stuck, like a politician on talking points, and he is gonna stay there, and not move off of that to deal with the larger realm of church history, the Hebrew scriptures, as well as the Septuagint.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  Do you read the Septuagint, Bob?

• 22:08Speaker 00

  And so, as a result of that, he's got a couple of basic talking points, and he's just gonna keep throwing those out there over and over and over.

• 22:19Speaker 04

  Do you actually read the Septuagint, Bob?

• 22:20Speaker 00

  Which is intellectually dishonest.

• 22:22Speaker 04

  Do you read the Bible or the Septuagint?

• 22:25Speaker 00

  What I would like-

• 22:26Speaker 04

  I know you're gonna get up and leave because you're a coward. But the devil asked me to ask you.

• 22:30Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 22:31Speaker 04

  Have you actually read the Septuagint?

• 22:33Speaker 00

  If I hear one more ad hominem argument, this is over.

• 22:37Speaker 04

  Who do you think you are? You wanna walk out? Take the money and walk. Take it and walk. You're a coward. You don't read these texts, and people just like you are afraid. The head of Dallas Theological Seminary's Greek program wouldn't come here, Bob, and sit where you are.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  May I ask a question?

• 22:54Speaker 04

  Because none of you actually reads Ancient Greek.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  May I ask a question?

• 22:58Danny Jones?

  Yes. It's your turn. It's your turn.

• 23:01Speaker 00

  You are a self-confessed former Christian?

• 23:05Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 23:06Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  And-

• 23:08Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  You were born again?

• 23:11Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Huh?

• 23:13Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 23:14Speaker 00

  Okay. And then, at some point-

• 23:19Speaker 00

  You walked away from that?

• 23:21Speaker 04

  Definitely, yes.

• 23:21Speaker 00

  Okay, you're right. Now, without trying to make it sound like Greek and Hebrew had you walk away from it, can you tell me what that negative epiphany was?

• 23:36Speaker 04

  Yes, it was Aristotle's pure muse. It was that genius. It was that genius in the Greek, which is far harder. If you studied any, you know that Greek has capacity that English can will never achieve.

• 23:50Speaker 00

  We've all heard this before from you. I, I want to know from a personal standpoint.

• 23:55Speaker 04

  That's what turned me. The beauty in that.

• 23:56Speaker 00

  That's what you claim as an intellectual vortex, but I want to know what the practical

• 24:05Speaker 00

  decision was based on to walk away from your faith and to deny Christ to the extent to which you have. So to call it a [BLEEP] file, how did you get from here to here? I just want to know.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  Wait, what's the [BLEEP] file doing?

• 24:18Danny Jones?

  How did you get from, from your original view of Christ to the [BLEEP] of Christ?

• 24:22Speaker 04

  Oh, um, that took years of study. Um, uh, you know, I wrote in a book, Bob, The Chemical Muse that I published, I wrote in that book that Hebrew was the original language of the Greek, I mean of the Old Testament, just like everybody else says, right? Just like any panel scholars would tell you. I wrote that in a book. Why? Because it was not until I actually read and read and reread.

• 24:51Speaker 00

  And who?

• 24:51Speaker 04

  And worked with those sources until I realized, oh my God, this thing is not a translation. This is gorgeous, perfect Greek.

• 25:00Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 25:01Speaker 04

  And it's precise, right?

• 25:02Speaker 00

  Okay, we, we, we've heard all this before on his show.

• 25:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 00

  So, um, who published that book?

• 25:08Speaker 04

  The Septuagint?

• 25:10Speaker 00

  No, no, the book that you just referred to.

• 25:12Speaker 04

  The Septuagint.

• 25:13Danny Jones?

  Oh, no, no, you're talking about The Chemical Muse? You're talking about The Chemical Muse? The book that he published?

• 25:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. Did, who published that?

• 25:18Danny Jones?

  Who published Chemical Muse? Was it Macmillan?

• 25:20Speaker 04

  It's Macmillan now, but originally it's, uh, Saint James, no, uh, what's his name? It's a saint.

• 25:27Speaker 00

  Well, what was the name of the publisher?

• 25:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'll think of it. Oh.

• 25:30Danny Jones?

  Steve, Steve, Google it.

• 25:32Speaker 04

  Thomas Dunne Books and Saint Martin's, Saint Martin's Press.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Saint Martin's Press.

• 25:38Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  Okay, just curious, no.

• 25:41Speaker 04

  Why is that relevant though?

• 25:43Speaker 00

  Well, it's very relevant.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  I'm curious.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  Because that's, that's not a respected Christian publisher. It's a publisher that puts out a lot of crazy stuff out there.

• 25:53Speaker 04

  I wasn't trying to target a Christian audience, so it was just general.

• 25:57Speaker 00

  There was no, and was there a theological overview board that, that passed off on what you wrote in the book? No.

• 26:07Danny Jones?

  It wasn't, it wasn't a theological book.

• 26:10Speaker 04

  No, it was, no.

• 26:11Danny Jones?

  It was a history.

• 26:12Speaker 04

  Is that what you're getting at? It's a history book.

• 26:14Danny Jones?

  It was a history book on Roman pharmacy.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  I, I stand by the offer that I made.

• 26:19Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:19Speaker 00

  And I think it's a good offer. I'm getting a little tired of the devil staring me in the face on your shirt.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  Why would you, okay.

• 26:28Danny Jones?

  Anyway. We're just here to, to let the audience learn from you guys and listen to these ideas clash.

• 26:35Speaker 00

  But, but, but, but we have a clash, as I've already stated to you, of apostasy. And a departure from the faith, virulent apostasy. Uh, that is, uh, demonically based, in my opinion, and it's very difficult to have dialogue.

• 26:56Speaker 04

  How do you think that it's demonically based?

• 26:58Speaker 00

  Well, I think you're being aggressive and a little bit nasty and that's not really lending itself well to.

• 27:04Speaker 04

  Is there nastiness?

• 27:05Danny Jones?

  You call him a coward, that wasn't nice.

• 27:07Speaker 00

  I just asked a practical.

• 27:09Danny Jones?

  He's calm down.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  I asked, I asked a practical question and really didn't get an answer as to.

• 27:14Speaker 04

  Okay, what was your question? I'm sorry, I'll answer it again.

• 27:17Speaker 00

  How and when?

• 27:17Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:19Speaker 00

  Leaving the Greek and the Hebrew out of it and all of that intellectual posturing, just how, how and when? What age did you walk away from the faith?

• 27:28Speaker 04

  I was 21 and I was sitting in the room that I was renting with Jose, who's a veterinary student. It was a brilliant time and I was sitting there reading Aristotle and I realized, oh my God, the gorgeousness of this universe and the reason, it's so beautiful, it must. Be the foundation of everything. And it clicked in my head, something classical clicked in my head. And I said, oh, I get it. I understand the burden of sin, right? Because I was a big, I was a, you know, I was a Bible scholar. I was, you know, I was a student.

• 28:08Danny Jones?

  Okay, so what do you mean by that? I have a question. You understand the burden of sin. What did you mean by that?

• 28:12Speaker 04

  Um, so, um, the beauty of the universe is in, is in the design that it is. Um, perfect, right? And the classical world understood this and they worshipped as Bible. Tell you, they worshipped as a result, nature and the organization and music. Remember a third of education is music.

• 28:34Danny Jones?

  A third of education is music?

• 28:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, harmony, baby. If you don't understand what harmony is, it's because you don't worship nature. So that's what I was.

• 28:43Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 28:44Speaker 04

  Thinking about when I was reading Aristotle.

• 28:46Speaker 00

  That was, that was an abrupt U-turn from where you were at theologically and personally. And so.

• 28:53Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  Okay. And so you chose Socrates? You chose Greek philosophy?

• 28:59Speaker 04

  No, I didn't. Well, then. Socrates, I gotta think about Plato.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  Greek philosophy and all the gods and goddesses that come along with it. And that understanding of a worldview that became.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  I had a demon help me there. I think I'm gonna pre-identify what you're gonna identify as a demon.

• 29:16Speaker 00

  So you, you, you basically adopted a Socratic worldview?

• 29:21Speaker 04

  No, no, absolutely not. It was not that sophisticated. I was sitting there reading Aristotle and I realized the beauty and harmony of the universe. The first thing I said, I've got to go get laid. And I went to a bar and I picked out the first girl that was good lucking. And I said, you must take me home and you must fornicate. And she said, great. I said, I'm a virgin.

• 29:43Speaker 00

  Are you being facetious or truthful?

• 29:45Speaker 04

  Absolutely not. I should take you to the bar that I went to. It's a country western bar.

• 29:49Danny Jones?

  You, you. Oh, yeah, you talked about this in the first podcast.

• 29:51Speaker 00

  Wait, wait, you, you had this a moment and you did what? You went to a bar?

• 29:57Speaker 04

  I understood. And got laid. I understood the beauty and I realized, holy mackerel, I want that beauty. I was a virgin, Bob. You know how it is when you're in the church, you gotta keep that virginity going, right?

• 30:10Speaker 00

  Can you just stop editorializing and give us some facts here? You went to the bar.

• 30:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, Your Honor, I went out and I got laid because I was 21.

• 30:20Danny Jones?

  Can you hear him okay?

• 30:21Speaker 00

  It was not, no. It wasn't Aristotle. You went to the bar.

• 30:25Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 30:26Speaker 00

  And then you went and got laid.

• 30:28Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 30:29Speaker 04

  Fantastic.

• 30:29Speaker 00

  Okay, alright, well.

• 30:32Danny Jones?

  And then, and then was there something about your first sexual experience, losing your virginity, that had something to do with this?

• 30:38Speaker 04

  Yeah, it didn't feel guilty. It felt good.

• 30:43Danny Jones?

  Okay, were you, let me ask you this. I don't know the answer to this.

• 30:46Speaker 00

  Well, hold on.

• 30:46Danny Jones?

  Were you a virgin because of your devotion to?

• 30:49Speaker 04

  Definitely. I've listened to J. Vernon McGee. Do you know J. Vernon McGee?

• 30:55Speaker 02

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• 31:01Speaker 02

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• 31:10Speaker 02

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• 31:16Speaker 02

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• 31:53Speaker 00

  Do I know J. Vernon McGee? Bless his dearly departed soul, of course I know who he was.

• 31:59Danny Jones?

  So, so you.

• 32:00Speaker 04

  What a man. That was a man.

• 32:02Speaker 00

  Well, yes, he had a lot of theological prejudices, but that's not the issue.

• 32:07Speaker 04

  He was not a pervert, though. That guy was straight up.

• 32:10Speaker 00

  Let me understand this.

• 32:12Speaker 04

  Yeah, go ahead.

• 32:14Speaker 00

  Born again Christian.

• 32:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Loving Jesus.

• 32:17Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:19Speaker 00

  As I understand admiring me and what I did.

• 32:22Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 32:23Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 32:24Danny Jones?

  Let, let, let him interrogate you.

• 32:25Speaker 04

  Sorry, am I?

• 32:26Speaker 00

  And then.

• 32:27Danny Jones?

  No, you're good, you're good.

• 32:27Speaker 00

  And then.

• 32:32Speaker 00

  Aristotle's view of reality, of good and evil, of the cosmos and how it exists and why it exists, turns you around.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  You go to a bar and then get laid and it felt good.

• 32:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  That's what you said.

• 32:52Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 32:53Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Guilty as charged.

• 32:59Speaker 04

  Of what?

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Of apostasy. That, obviously.

• 33:05Speaker 04

  But with Damon or not?

• 33:06Speaker 00

  Obviously, in my opinion, you, you turned, you made a moral U-turn. Remember I said earlier, people don't have as much of an intellectual objection to the gospels, they have a moral objection to the gospel. Arrest my case. You had a moral objection

• 33:27Speaker 00

  and you decided to go down that path, which was contrary to the path that preceded you.

• 33:35Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 33:36Speaker 00

  To which you were very devoted.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Oh, God, I used to bomb, I used to jerk off and get so depressed because Jesus was watching me jerk off. And I knew it was bad, man, I knew it was bad.

• 33:47Danny Jones?

  Did that affect you, like?

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Oh, wait a minute.

• 33:49Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah, every time I was coming home from college and I looked up at the billboard, they had this.

• 33:53Speaker 00

  At this point, we don't, don't need to know about your masturbation practices.

• 33:58Danny Jones?

  Well, he was saying that, I think the, the reason he was explaining that was because he felt like he was sinning by actually going out and having sex with a woman, so he had to masturbate and he felt, he said, he, I think what he's expressed. He felt guilty of that.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Okay, okay.

• 34:12Speaker 04

  The guilt of masturbation.

• 34:13Speaker 00

  So finally, you dispelled that guilt by, by going out and having sexual intercourse.

• 34:19Speaker 04

  And I dispelled it all night long.

• 34:20Danny Jones?

  So did that make him?

• 34:21Speaker 00

  You, you sinned and you loved it.

• 34:25Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 34:25Speaker 00

  And it's been downhill ever since?

• 34:28Speaker 04

  No, no, that was the beginning of my training. It's been glorious.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Okay, okay.

• 34:32Danny Jones?

  So your life has been better since, since you left Christ?

• 34:35Speaker 04

  Oh God, if you can't find Aphrodite, right? Christianity blocks you from Aphrodite. Right? And that's a whole part of existence, the great mother. It's why you can't worship a great mother in Christianity.

• 34:47Danny Jones?

  Why can't you worship? Is that true? You can't worship a great mother?

• 34:49Speaker 00

  Well, you know, this could get rather interesting. Uh, I've been to Ephesus. I've seen the statues of Aphrodite. Which is this goddess with, um, multiple breasts.

• 35:04Speaker 04

  That's Artemis.

• 35:05Speaker 00

  That's Artemis, but it's also Aphrodite.

• 35:07Speaker 04

  No, it's not. Artemis is a virgin. Artemis is a virgin.

• 35:10Speaker 00

  They're basically interchangeable.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  No, no, you have sex in the temple of Aphrodite. No, that's a big distinction. You can't say Artemis is a-

• 35:17Speaker 00

  With pendulum breast hanging from her.

• 35:20Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  And it was in, in front of statues like this, that the maidens were deflowered to become, uh, advocates of the goddess. I mean, there's all sorts of hideous stuff.

• 35:32Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 35:33Speaker 00

  But it's all, almost all of it, the Greeks were highly sexualized.

• 35:37Danny Jones?

  Yes, right. Yeah, I think he made that pretty clear.

• 35:39Speaker 00

  And this is what the culture was based on, and then this is what he bought into. So this part of the conversation has been helpful to me to understand. Uh, but what nationality are you?

• 35:53Speaker 04

  Oh God, just a mixture. Just all about some Dutch ancestors, some Germans, some Scottish. There's, I don't know, people just loved, man.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  Dutch, German, Scott.

• 36:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 36:05Speaker 00

  Is that basically it?

• 36:06Speaker 04

  Uh, no, supposedly there may be some native in there as well, but you know.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, okay. Well, that's, to me, is an exorcist consistent with what you're telling me.

• 36:18Danny Jones?

  No Scandinavian though.

• 36:21Speaker 00

  Well, thank God he doesn't have the Vikings you did.

• 36:24Danny Jones?

  Yeah.

• 36:24Speaker 00

  By the way, I should have had you break that curse.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  So, I, I think what we're talking about here, in my estimation, is an exorcist. Is that the currents that he had just described was not as epiphanous in a negative sense as we might think of it. It was the end result of a process that was intergenerational and probably going back to these ancestries. And there is something highly sexualized and debaucherous back there that was looking for a way to work itself through. And it found a victim, and he was that victim. And unfortunately, he did what he did.

• 37:13Danny Jones?

  No, I'm not a victim, Bob.

• 37:15Speaker 00

  Don't all people experience that? I just want to finish by saying.

• 37:18Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  To me, the mystery of Christ is that even Amen could return to the fold and become an advocate for the grace and the mercy of God. Paul killed Christians. Two thieves were crucified with Jesus. One repented.

• 37:49Danny Jones?

  Oh, they were thieves?

• 37:50Speaker 00

  I do not, what?

• 37:52Danny Jones?

  The thieves were crucified on both sides?

• 37:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, one, one, one repented, one didn't. I'm just saying that I marvel at the grace of God that even you could return to faith in Christ. I don't know what it would take. I don't know how it could happen. I'd be happy to. It could happen. You'd have to explain to me. I would love to play some part in that process. Like those thieves. It doesn't say they're thieves, Bob. It says they're child. But, but, you, you. People worthy of death. Right now, the problem. According to Roman law. The problem, as I see it, is that you've dug such a deep hole by being so vehement. In your opposition to historic Christianity as we know it, in 2,000 years of church

• 38:36Speaker 00

  history, it would take a lot to turn that ship around.

• 38:40Speaker 04

  It would.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  But God is powerful and God could do it.

• 38:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:45Danny Jones?

  Like, so, so my perspective, and I think a lot of people listening to this, here, the history of the word Lasteis and the translations of the word Lasteis, which Julius Caesar famously called the, the guys that kidnapped him, the, the pirates that kidnapped him and held ransom for him, he, he crucified them and he called them publicly Lasteis, right? These guys were people who kidnapped a child, Julius Caesar when he was a child. So, when you see Jesus saying, being caught in this scene in the Bible, in the public park with the kid, and he goes, "I'm not a Lasteis, I'm not a Lasteis," and then, eight hours later, he's crucified, which, which, which is what happens to people who are kidnapping children.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  That's the gospel according to Amen.

• 39:32Danny Jones?

  No, no, no, but that's, that's the true history of what happened with Julius Caesar.

• 39:36Speaker 00

  No, it is not the true, it is not the true history.

• 39:37Danny Jones?

  That's not what happened to Julius Caesar?

• 39:39Speaker 00

  Why don't you consult independent scholars about those questions?

• 39:47Danny Jones?

  I have, I've asked independent scholars about the history of Julius Caesar.

• 39:50Speaker 00

  Now, you've asked them to be on your show, but you-

• 39:51Danny Jones?

  No, no, this is off the show, this is private conversations I've had.

• 39:53Speaker 00

  No, okay, well, I always suggest that you do that. So, as I understand, were you dismissed from Dallas Theological Seminary?

• 40:01Speaker 04

  No, I left, I went and saw the president, I left, and I told him, I said, "Your program's not what it's up, it's not up to standard as it was under J. Vernon McGee." And he agreed to me, this is waffred, he said, "I know that."

• 40:14Danny Jones?

  He said that?

• 40:15Speaker 04

  Yes, "Your Greek program is terrible, it's fallen off."

• 40:19Speaker 00

  Okay, okay, but I would suggest-

• 40:21Speaker 04

  And at that point, I already had a bachelor's, so it was a waste of time.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  I would suggest you take that question to a conservative seminary like Dallas.

• 40:29Speaker 04

  He did, Dallas, he did to Dallas.

• 40:31Speaker 00

  And there are-

• 40:32Danny Jones?

  Wouldn't- I want to take that to an unbiased source because by definition, somebody who's in a seminary is going to be biased.

• 40:39Speaker 00

  You're taking this from a biased source.

• 40:41Danny Jones?

  I agree, I agree, but I have.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  You know, they're all going to be, everybody's biased.

• 40:45Danny Jones?

  I've asked people who are in the middle of this, though, people who aren't on the religious side, people who aren't, who think Amen is full of shit. I've talked to people who think he's completely full of shit. And I asked them about this history of Caesar, Julius Caesar, and crucifying Lestace and the word Lestace being used. And they can agree on that. They don't necessarily agree with his theories, but they do agree on that principle.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:08Danny Jones?

  So that's, that's what I'm, that's what I'm, I'm just asking, do you understand my position, how I'm, why I'm skeptical?

• 41:13Speaker 00

  Yeah, I understand your position. You're not a Greek scholar.

• 41:16Danny Jones?

  You understand why I'm skeptical, though? How can I be a Greek scholar?

• 41:19Speaker 00

  I understand that because you've been tainted by him.

• 41:24Speaker 04

  Hey, now you're getting aggressive.

• 41:25Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:26Speaker 04

  I love it, Bob.

• 41:27Speaker 00

  And he's not, and, and, and he's not credible.

• 41:30Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 41:31Danny Jones?

  But he does have a PhD in classical philology.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  Well, but he appears to, and, and, and he, you know, he wants to be considered that, but in the bigger scheme of things, I understand you, maybe you haven't been able to facilitate the forum that would allow the proper scholars to be here and debate that.

• 41:51Danny Jones?

  I think, I think this will open the door to it. Now that you've kind of broken the seal, I think now this will open the door to it.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  I do think that somebody who claims to be following Christ, who suddenly throws that overboard for Aristotle and a night of hot sex, is really not credible.

• 42:15Speaker 04

  That's what you base your credibility on?

• 42:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:18Speaker 04

  You realize he can't read this book?

• 42:19Speaker 00

  So my, my, my.

• 42:20Speaker 04

  You realize he can't read this? This is great, Bob. Would you like to translate for us?

• 42:23Speaker 00

  Here.

• 42:24Speaker 04

  Here's the Bible.

• 42:25Speaker 00

  My, uh, my original-

• 42:27Speaker 04

  The devil told me to do this. It's the Bible, Bob.

• 42:30Danny Jones?

  He thinks the devil's talking to him, Bob.

• 42:31Speaker 04

  Watch people, look, look at your audience.

• 42:34Speaker 00

  He's not talking, he's manifesting demons.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  You don't want me-

• 42:37Speaker 00

  He's manifesting demons.

• 42:38Speaker 04

  You don't wanna play this, Bob. Don't let Dan, Danny show the world-

• 42:42Speaker 00

  I-

• 42:42Speaker 04

  That you cannot read the fucking bible, you flim-flamming- That's from the devil.

• 42:48Danny Jones?

  That's not from him, that's from the devil.

• 42:49Speaker 04

  Make sure and get the flim-flamming. Make sure and get the flim-flamming. And, he said something about the incubus in your wife, too.

• 42:54Speaker 00

  You're digging your hole deeper, Amon. You really maybe should stop, Rob.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  Oh, God, you're afraid.

• 43:00Speaker 00

  By the way, I do have a question.

• 43:01Speaker 04

  They're afraid. They're afraid.

• 43:03Danny Jones?

  We're doing this to learn, I think we're learning a lot here.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  May I, may I ask a simple question?

• 43:07Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Is Amon your Christian name?

• 43:09Speaker 04

  It is my third name, it's my second middle name.

• 43:12Speaker 00

  Exactly. Has anybody called you out on that?

• 43:15Speaker 04

  Look, here, here, it's on my driver's license, Bob, you wanna see it?

• 43:19Speaker 00

  But, but, but it's not your Christian name.

• 43:21Speaker 04

  What the, what does that mean?

• 43:23Danny Jones?

  What is the Christian, what is the Christian name?

• 43:26Speaker 04

  My mother gave me four names when I was born. David, Charles, Ammon Hillman, and I go by Amon. Because David murdered a bunch of people.

• 43:37Speaker 00

  Wait, wait, wait, why did they give you Amon?

• 43:40Danny Jones?

  Let's see the driver's license, we need proof. Can you pull, can you punch it on this, Steve?

• 43:45Speaker 00

  Well, I'm just asking, why did they give you, I'm just curious.

• 43:49Danny Jones?

  It doesn't say Amon.

• 43:50Speaker 04

  Oh, they didn't put the, they didn't put the fucking Amon on my- It's on my birth certificate.

• 43:54Speaker 00

  If you don't stop using the F-word, I will leave.

• 43:57Danny Jones?

  Alright, stop, stop.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  I'm not gonna put up with that.

• 43:59Speaker 04

  Can I bring Chewie and just tell him that it's on my birth certificate, my second middle?

• 44:03Danny Jones?

  We need to make this, hold on, both, please.

• 44:05Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 44:05Danny Jones?

  We need to make this something that people can learn from, that's the purpose of this. Not, not you two friendly. No, just respectful so people can learn from this, we need to make this-

• 44:12Speaker 04

  No F-bombs.

• 44:13Speaker 00

  Where did the name Amon come from?

• 44:17Speaker 04

  I, I'm-

• 44:18Speaker 00

  Where did the name Amon come from?

• 44:20Speaker 04

  Um, my uncle's name is also Amon, his first name, so I don't know. Yeah, I really don't. Well, there's a bunch of immigrants from Europe, man, from all different places, I have no idea. No idea.

• 44:30Speaker 00

  Just, just curious.

• 44:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, that's okay.

• 44:33Danny Jones?

  Where do you think it comes from?

• 44:34Speaker 04

  What makes you curious?

• 44:35Speaker 00

  I don't know. Maybe the Ammonites.

• 44:39Danny Jones?

  Who are the Ammonites?

• 44:41Speaker 00

  Ask him.

• 44:41Danny Jones?

  Who are the Ammonites?

• 44:42Speaker 04

  Oh, there nobody, um.

• 44:44Danny Jones?

  There nobody?

• 44:44Speaker 04

  Isidore, Isidore said.

• 44:46Speaker 00

  Huh?

• 44:47Speaker 04

  Isidore, Saint Isidore. He wrote.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm talking about the ancient civilization.

• 44:54Speaker 04

  I know you're talking about the, the Ammonites, or as my southern relatives preachers would say, Ammonites.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  They say Ammonites, but you say Ammon. And, and I'm just curious, I don't know, you know, that may be just a red herring, but it's.

• 45:06Speaker 04

  I think it is.

• 45:07Speaker 00

  I find it rather interesting that you were given that name, if that is what you were given.

• 45:11Speaker 04

  Yes, I haven't given it much thought.

• 45:13Speaker 00

  And you want to tell this man what the Ammonites were like, what they did?

• 45:17Speaker 04

  It was one of the groups that, you know, they wanted to destroy, um.

• 45:21Speaker 00

  Israel.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  In the Septuagint, um, they're talking about.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  They were the enemy of Israel.

• 45:26Speaker 04

  And they had to.

• 45:27Speaker 00

  And they practiced, they practiced human sacrifice.

• 45:30Danny Jones?

  He's letting you talk, let's let, let's let, let's let him describe.

• 45:33Speaker 00

  I'm not sure he's going to tell you the whole truth.

• 45:35Danny Jones?

  Well, if he does it, then you can correct him.

• 45:36Speaker 04

  They were one of the people that was genocided in antiquity, yeah.

• 45:41Danny Jones?

  The Ammonites were genocidal.

• 45:42Speaker 04

  That's what the text says, yeah.

• 45:44Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 45:45Speaker 04

  There's not much evidence for it, that's what the text says.

• 45:47Speaker 00

  Who were they historically? Who were they historically? Who did they worship?

• 45:51Speaker 04

  Um, I think you're probably going to say Moloch or something like that.

• 45:55Speaker 00

  Yes, Moloch, yes, and they practiced, they practiced infant sacrifice.

• 45:59Speaker 04

  Infant with the.

• 46:00Speaker 00

  And blood rituals and all sorts of sexual assentiousness.

• 46:04Speaker 04

  All sorts.

• 46:05Speaker 00

  Okay, so I don't know that there's a connection, but oftentimes, a name, as you well know, from ancient Hebrew culture, always designated something spiritually about the progeny. Now, is it possible that there's a curse of Ammon on this man?

• 46:29Speaker 00

  And it was put there, maybe not deliberately, but perhaps deliberately by an ancestor. I don't know if, if, if he's telling the truth.

• 46:38Speaker 04

  That is the sexiest thing.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  If this is an ancestral name, uh, I would say I'd change my name. But he hasn't and he may, I'm just suggesting.

• 46:50Danny Jones?

  Well, your name, your, your public name was D. What'd you call it? Did you ever call yourself David? Or did it was it?

• 46:55Speaker 04

  D C A Hillman was what I got.

• 46:57Danny Jones?

  When did you change it to Amon?

• 46:59Speaker 04

  I didn't change anything. My mother gave me.

• 47:01Speaker 00

  But you now, you now want to be known as Amon.

• 47:04Danny Jones?

  When did you kill David?

• 47:05Speaker 04

  Oh, oh, when did I get rid of? Yeah. When I realized that he was a mass.

• 47:09Speaker 00

  You now, you now want to be known as Amon.

• 47:11Speaker 04

  No, no. Carl Ruck was sitting with me one day, Dr. Carl Ruck. He's a classicist. And he's sitting with me one day.

• 47:18Danny Jones?

  He's a Harvard classical philologist.

• 47:19Speaker 04

  I turned to him and I said, I said, Hey, you know, David was a mass murderer. I hate that name. And he goes, why don't you use your middle name? What is it? And I said, well, I've got two, Charles and Amon. And he goes, oh, Amon, that's a good one. Use that one.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  Priceline negotiator. It's me, the. Priceline negotiator. We don't need the jingle twice. What about a third time? Stop it. This is about vacation inflation and how Priceline negotiates amazing deals on hotels, flights and rental cars. Seems like they just started. Yeah, but I didn't mention that you can save up to 60% off hotels in the Priceline app. Time to read the timeline. Fine. No one deals more deals than. Priceline. Please stop. Priceline. Touche. Priceline. Priceline.

• 48:02Speaker 05

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• 48:13Speaker 05

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• 48:17Speaker 05

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• 48:19Speaker 03

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• 48:26Speaker 05

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• 48:32Speaker 04

  That's a true story.

• 48:33Danny Jones?

  It has a better ring to it than Charles.

• 48:35Speaker 00

  There may be nothing to that, but I just find it interesting. I find it interesting because everything that you're suggesting is consistent with that type of a belief system.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  What if I told you that Saint Isidore said that the name of the Antichrist is Amon?

• 48:53Speaker 00

  Could be.

• 48:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, he said that.

• 48:54Speaker 00

  Well, it could be many names.

• 48:57Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, I'm just, it's interesting. Like you, I find it just interesting.

• 49:02Speaker 00

  If you sacrificed your children to Moloch in a

• 49:05Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 49:06Speaker 00

  In a bloody ritual, I would say that could lead to the Antichrist. It could lead to a lot of things. But really, at a bottom line here, you're not interested in renouncing the devil? And renouncing the path that you're on to receive an exorcism at this point? You're not?

• 49:31Speaker 04

  I wouldn't dare. I wouldn't dare step forward and renounce the devil. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Just like I wouldn't dare step forward, renounce Vishnu, right? I'm not a renouncer. I'm not a renouncer, and I can't do that.

• 49:49Speaker 00

  Okay, so you're not willing to renounce that? And as you know,

• 49:54Speaker 04

  My brain says I have to have this.

• 49:55Speaker 00

  Every historic Christian baptism included the renunciation of the devil.

• 50:02Speaker 04

  Of course.

• 50:02Speaker 00

  Okay, all right. And you're not willing to stand with historic Christianity?

• 50:09Speaker 04

  No, because what we have now is not what they had in antiquity.

• 50:12Speaker 00

  You've rewritten Christianity, you've rewritten the Bible, you've rewritten all these things, the Gospel according to Ammon.

• 50:20Speaker 00

  So there's really no discussion here, except the possibility of a private discussion in which you might tell me some things you won't tell in front of a camera.

• 50:32Speaker 04

  You know, in antiquity, Bob, the pagans and the Christians

• 50:35Speaker 00

  You're not responding to what I said.

• 50:37Speaker 04

  I am responding with this answer. In antiquity, the pagans and the Christians, prominent intellectuals would come together, and they still had that classical civilizations focus on the gymnasium. And they would come, just like you and me, and they would debate back and forth, right? I am not looking for any sort of ceremony with crosses. I don't care. It doesn't matter to me, Bob. What matters to me is the facts that are in this book that I have dedicated my life to studying.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  We get that. May I ask just an obvious question? What is tattooed on your head?

• 51:11Speaker 04

  Oh, my goodness. Bob, that's the point the devil was making.

• 51:15Speaker 00

  I can't see it. I can't see it.

• 51:17Speaker 04

  Read it, Bob.

• 51:18Speaker 00

  Well, I can't read it.

• 51:20Danny Jones?

  It says Medea.

• 51:23Speaker 04

  That's Greek, Bob.

• 51:25Speaker 00

  And, why is it there?

• 51:27Danny Jones?

  What is the one on the other side?

• 51:28Speaker 04

  There.

• 51:28Danny Jones?

  That Linear B?

• 51:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, this is Linear B. Medea, same name. And this, Bob, is Etruscan.

• 51:34Speaker 00

  And wait a minute, wait a minute. Why, why is Medea there?

• 51:38Speaker 04

  It's the same, I'm telling you that, it's the same name in Etruscan. Mathia. She was so well-known in antiquity, the first Christ, that she was known all the way from the Black Sea to Spain. Imagine being that popular in antiquity.

• 51:55Danny Jones?

  Why was she so popular?

• 51:56Speaker 04

  That's difficult, because of what she could do with the Christing drugs.

• 52:01Speaker 00

  No, no, no, no, don't, you leap from Medea to Christ.

• 52:04Speaker 04

  She was the first Christ.

• 52:06Speaker 00

  Wait a minute.

• 52:07Speaker 04

  Historically.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  You're not telling me what she did. What did she do?

• 52:11Speaker 04

  Um, what did she do? Like, what was her job? She was the queen of Babylon.

• 52:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  Queen of Babylon.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 52:21Speaker 00

  The, the fountain of all witchcraft, Babylon.

• 52:26Speaker 04

  Um, the Medes.

• 52:27Speaker 00

  Babylon the greatest fallen. I'm sure you know those words. Yes.

• 52:32Speaker 04

  Yes, you're right.

• 52:32Speaker 00

  Babylon the symbol of ultimate evil.

• 52:36Speaker 04

  The witchcraft, the sorcery, the pornea.

• 52:40Speaker 00

  And that's, and that's basically what you have on your head.

• 52:44Speaker 04

  Not basically, that is what I have on my head.

• 52:47Speaker 00

  And you think we can have a reasonable dialogue? You really think that?

• 52:52Speaker 04

  Why does that mean we can't have a reasonable?

• 52:54Danny Jones?

  I think this is fascinating.

• 52:55Speaker 00

  You tattooed with the symbol of witchcraft and sorcery, and you want, you want a dialogue?

• 53:01Speaker 04

  On my head.

• 53:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 53:02Speaker 04

  Definitely. Why do you put tattooed names on your head in antiquity?

• 53:06Speaker 00

  You, you, come on now, Aman. Let's just, can you drop the public persona for a moment and just be very real here?

• 53:14Speaker 04

  No, this is me, Bob.

• 53:14Speaker 00

  You went from believing that Jesus Christ was your Lord and Savior.

• 53:19Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely.

• 53:21Speaker 00

  That you were a sinful being in need of forgiveness. Overnight.

• 53:27Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:28Speaker 00

  Because of Aristotle.

• 53:29Speaker 04

  Not overnight, instantly with Aristotle.

• 53:32Speaker 00

  Enjoying.

• 53:34Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 53:34Speaker 00

  Fornication.

• 53:35Speaker 04

  Definitely.

• 53:36Speaker 00

  And then tattooing on your head.

• 53:39Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  The whore of Babylon.

• 53:43Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 53:44Danny Jones?

  The whore of Babylon.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  Well, that's, that's a, that's a, that's an interesting leap. I, you know, if I did not believe in the grace of God and the power of Christ, I would think you are hopeless, but you're not. You're not hopeless. There have been worse than you.

• 54:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  Who have turned again to Christ.

• 54:03Danny Jones?

  What, but what is your understanding of the, of Lady Babylon?

• 54:06Speaker 00

  Huh?

• 54:06Danny Jones?

  What is your understanding of Lady Babylon? Your, your, your personal understanding?

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Well, Babylon has both literally and metaphorically stood as the ultimate example of sorcery, witchcraft and rebellion against God. Over and over again, it's referred

• 54:23Speaker 04

  Because of Medea, because of this woman.

• 54:24Speaker 00

  To be ultimate rebellion against God.

• 54:26Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 54:27Speaker 00

  And in the end of time, Babylon the Great has fallen.

• 54:32Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 54:32Speaker 00

  It speaks of this kingdom finally being judged by Christ and cast down.

• 54:37Danny Jones?

  Okay.

• 54:37Speaker 00

  At the end of the age.

• 54:38Speaker 04

  The morning star, by the morning star.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  And so, so he has this on his head.

• 54:44Danny Jones?

  And who was Lady Babylon? What did she do?

• 54:46Speaker 00

  Well, well, this is just a symbol, okay? It's the symbol is of rebellion, of witchcraft.

• 54:54Danny Jones?

  Okay, I see.

• 54:54Speaker 00

  Of the worship of the devil, of human sacrifice. You name it, all the licentious possibilities that are there.

• 55:02Speaker 04

  What about medicine?

• 55:03Speaker 00

  That is tattooed on his head.

• 55:06Speaker 04

  Did you know the word medicine comes from Medea, from first Christ?

• 55:09Speaker 00

  Who tattoos this on his head stands in judgment of Christ as a [BLEEP] file. I'm done. I'm done. I don't have enough Celsius to keep going.

• 55:20Speaker 04

  That has nothing to do with the Bible, though. I don't understand.

• 55:22Speaker 00

  But my offer still stands.

• 55:23Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 55:24Speaker 00

  My offer still stands.

• 55:25Speaker 04

  Cause you're a flimflammer. I'm not gonna take your offer.

• 55:26Speaker 00

  You'll come see me personally.

• 55:27Speaker 04

  You came here to get five grand. That's what you fucking came here for.

• 55:30Speaker 00

  No microphones. Just you and I talking man to man.

• 55:34Speaker 04

  Scary. You're a scared little man. And that's the problem, just like the first of Harvard.

• 55:38Danny Jones?

  He's not. He's sat here and he's been talking to you for 30 minutes.

• 55:40Speaker 04

  No, he hasn't been talking about the Bible. He doesn't want to talk about the Bible because he can't.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 55:45Speaker 04

  Just like the people at Harvard can't. What is it, Christ, Bob?

• 55:49Speaker 00

  You know.

• 55:50Danny Jones?

  How was when, how was Medea the first Christ? Can you explain how Medea was a Christ?

• 55:54Speaker 04

  Diador Siculus, the historian comes along and he says, this is what Medea did.

• 55:59Speaker 00

  If there were any more ad hominem arguments, we would be done.

• 56:02Speaker 04

  You just talked about my tattoos. You're such a hypocrite, just like the Christians everywhere.

• 56:06Speaker 00

  But you didn't deny what I said about, you did not deny what I said about the tattoos. You didn't deny it. So, look.

• 56:15Speaker 04

  What if I picked out your ears and I said, you bigger bastard, you take it personally, Bob?

• 56:19Speaker 00

  Why don't you let me say a prayer?

• 56:22Speaker 04

  You can say a prayer all you want.

• 56:24Speaker 00

  I would like to.

• 56:25Speaker 04

  I'm not restricting you.

• 56:26Speaker 00

  I would like to say a prayer.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Please.

• 56:27Danny Jones?

  Let's do it.

• 56:28Speaker 00

  Okay.

• 56:29Speaker 04

  Please.

• 56:29Danny Jones?

  Let's say a prayer.

• 56:30Speaker 00

  And I would like to put some holy oil on you when I pray.

• 56:35Speaker 04

  You can take that holy oil and shove it in your ass, Bob. I'm not one of your victims.

• 56:41Speaker 00

  Wait a minute, what'd you just say?

• 56:42Speaker 04

  I'm not one of your victims. You want to hit me with your cross, you psychologically abusive.

• 56:48Danny Jones?

  Why is the holy water psychologically abusive?

• 56:50Speaker 00

  Wait, what did you just, I say I could do with this?

• 56:53Danny Jones?

  He said, put the water where the sun doesn't shine.

• 56:55Speaker 00

  Do you know what this is a symbol of?

• 56:58Speaker 04

  I think it's a symbol of your.

• 56:59Speaker 00

  Of the Holy Spirit.

• 57:01Speaker 04

  Desire to invade my space, weirdo.

• 57:03Speaker 00

  It's a symbol of the Holy Spirit. And you said I could shove it where?

• 57:09Speaker 04

  What's the word for Holy Spirit? What's the word for Holy Spirit, Bob?

• 57:14Speaker 04

  You don't even know that. You're a flim flammer. You have any snake oil?

• 57:18Danny Jones?

  What is the word for Holy Spirit? I don't know.

• 57:21Speaker 04

  Seriously, Bob, look, these are all his terms, dude. He doesn't even know gospel. What does the word gospel mean, Bob?

• 57:28Danny Jones?

  All right.

• 57:28Speaker 00

  What did I do with?

• 57:29Danny Jones?

  Are we wrapping it up, Bob? Or you got, are you gonna book or something?

• 57:32Speaker 04

  The devil told me you were a coward, Bob.

• 57:35Danny Jones?

  All right, we're, we're wrapping it up.

• 57:36Speaker 00

  I will not listen to this.

• 57:39Danny Jones?

  I appreciate, I appreciate.

• 57:41Speaker 00

  Kind of abusive, filthy, negative language.

• 57:45Danny Jones?

  All right, that's enough. We don't need to call names.

• 57:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:48Danny Jones?

  Bob showed up here, he engaged with you.

• 57:51Speaker 04

  You still gonna pay him?

• 57:53Danny Jones?

  He, he engaged with you.

• 57:54Speaker 04

  You still gonna pay him?

• 57:55Danny Jones?

  If he agrees to let me publish this, then yes.

• 57:58Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 57:58Danny Jones?

  Well, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna pay him, I'm gonna donate to the church.

• 58:00Speaker 04

  Remember, Bob, that's what you're all about. Remember that. When he makes his charitable donation, that's you, buddy. That's you.

• 58:09Speaker 00

  Let me see that envelope.

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Is there cash in here?

• 58:16Danny Jones?

  Cash.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Oh, I was gonna rip it up.

• 58:18Speaker 04

  That's your prostitution money. You just have him give it to your church, you flim flammer.

• 58:24Danny Jones?

  Alright, let's not be rude.

• 58:26Speaker 04

  Dude, he said I was demon possessed. He can't take it back? Well, you can say, "Oh, I'm aggressive with the devil." But when the devil gets aggressive with you, you're a coward and you back down. You go live the rest of your life knowing the devil got the best over you.

• 58:41Speaker 00

  I think this audience sees clearly what has happened here and your reframing of it is not going to work.

• 58:49Speaker 04

  You're exactly right.

• 58:50Speaker 00

  I will let the audience be the judge.

• 58:52Speaker 04

  You're exactly right. That's the best thing to say. You should have finished with that. You should have put that on the [bleep].

• 58:56Danny Jones?

  Yeah, well.

• 58:57Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 58:57Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 58:58Danny Jones?

  Thank you, Bob. I really appreciate your time.

• 58:59Speaker 04

  Don't touch my daughter on the way out either.

• 59:02Speaker 00

  What?

• 59:03Speaker 04

  Don't touch my daughter on the way out.

• 59:08Speaker 00

  Are you recording that part?

• 59:09Danny Jones?

  Yeah, it's recording.

• 59:10Speaker 04

  Oh, Bob, I'm a dad. I'm just giving you advice. You do the same thing with your daughters.

• 59:17Speaker 04

  Bob, how many times do you talk about [bleep]ing children on the show?

• 59:23Speaker 04

  And then you have the balls to look at me and say, "You got tattoos. You must be possessed." You've got a lot of gumption.

• 59:34Speaker 04

  I thought for sure you'd come here because I knew you when I was young. And I said, "This guy's got balls. He will confront." And then you were sitting out there talking about confronting the devil? And now you're all afraid.

• 59:44Danny Jones?

  He's the only one. I don't... dozens of people who came here. He's the only one.

• 59:48Speaker 04

  Are you gonna let him play the whole thing? Or are you gonna tell him you can't play parts?

• 59:52Speaker 00

  I had my say.

• 59:53Speaker 04

  Yeah?

• 59:54Speaker 00

  I stated my decision.

• 59:55Speaker 04

  You have the right?

• 59:57Danny Jones?

  Thank you, Bob. I appreciate it.

• 59:58Speaker 00

  Yeah. Thanks for coming, Bob.

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• 1:01:01Speaker 07

  Il fait froid à l'extérieur. Mais vous savez ce que ça signifie ?

• 1:01:07Speaker 07

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