Listener Questions #48

Daniel and Kelly answer questions about crackpots, hearing meteors, and the age of everything. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Daniel Whiteson?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  Hi, I'm Steph and I work at United Healthcare. When I think about United Healthcare's members, I think of my own family. My niece was diagnosed with an ultra-rare genetic disorder. I know how hard it is for families at United Healthcare. We can make it easier.

• 0:19Speaker 02

  I'm Brian. I care because I know what it's like to not speak the language. It's not easy. Health insurance is complicated. I would say our job is to make everything easy for our UAC members. I work for United Healthcare. I'm committed to care.

• 0:35Speaker 03

  This is the story of the one. As a shipping manager, he's running the dock, stocking supplies, and making sure every order goes out on time. And Granger helps him stay prepared. From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools, he counts on Granger to keep products moving and trucks rolling. So his operation runs smoothly, no matter the shift. Call 1-800-GRANGER, click Granger.com, or just stop by. Granger, for the ones who get it done.

• 1:05Speaker 04

  Small businesses are the pulse of every community. They bring people together, create opportunities, and drive growth. Chase for Business helps business owners like you with personalized guidance and convenient digital tools all in one place. With that guidance and your determination, you can take your business further and help build a brighter future for your community. Learn more at chase.com/business. Chase for Business: Make More of What's Yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A., Member FDIC. Copyright 2026, JPMorgan Chase & Company.

• 1:47Speaker 05

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 2:26Daniel Whiteson?

  When a meteor makes a fireball in the sky, is it possible to hear it when it's up so high?

• 2:33Kelly Weinersmith?

  People have a lot of crazy ideas and thoughts. What are DNK's favorites from their inbox? Daniel, I don't know if thoughts and inbox rhyme.

• 2:44Daniel Whiteson?

  How old is the tree, the stone, the air, the atoms in each one? What's the oldest thing that's anywhere beneath the stars and the sun?

• 2:53Kelly Weinersmith?

  Whatever questions keep you up at night, Daniel and Kelly's answers will make it right.

• 2:58Daniel Whiteson?

  Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Listener Universe.

• 3:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  Episode number 48.

• 3:16Kelly Weinersmith?

  Hello, I'm Kelly Weinersmith. I study parasites and space. And we've got a lot of great questions today, and they're all Daniel questions. This is a Daniel-run episode.

• 3:27Daniel Whiteson?

  Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist who loves to think about aliens and answer questions from listeners. And I'll say, Kelly, that I chose some that also ask for your input.

• 3:37Kelly Weinersmith?

  Aw, thank you. That was nice of you. And so I see that we have a question about what are some of our favorite sort of conspiracy theories, let's say, that come across our email box? And so what I want to know from you is, what is your favorite question, period? Not a conspiracy theory. What question, like, just lit you up when you read it?

• 3:59Daniel Whiteson?

  Ooh, that's tough. I can remember lots of moments when I saw a question in my inbox and I thought, oh, my gosh, what a fun question. Most often, these are questions from kids, you know, like, seven-year-olds with parents who listen to the podcast or something. And they ask a question that the parent couldn't answer. And so then they ask us to step in. That's like one of my favorite moments. But in terms of a specific question, just last week, I got a question from a nine-year-old who thought they had the solution to quantum gravity. They heard us discussing Hawking radiation, and they were like, wait a second, that's a quantum effect? And it's gravity? Isn't that quantum gravity? Can't you start from there and build a whole theory of quantum gravity?

• 4:42Daniel Whiteson?

  And I was like, wow, this nine-year-old is really paying attention.

• 4:45Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, holy cow. I feel like that, I mean, that is a great question, but I also feel like it's a question where at the end you're like, I'm not doing enough.

• 4:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  I wasn't that smart as a nine-year-old. This kid is gonna be like president slash emperor of the universe. And what am I doing over here?

• 5:04Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, only because you didn't have the benefit of this amazing podcast to stimulate your mind, right?

• 5:10Kelly Weinersmith?

  You're right, you're right.

• 5:11Daniel Whiteson?

  So what is your favorite question you've gotten over email, Kelly?

• 5:14Kelly Weinersmith?

  I get a lot of questions where, at the end, I realize either, whoa, I don't know the answer and I should have. Or I get a lot of questions that I love that are like, hey, you know what? Banana slugs. I want the Kelly version of banana slugs. And I'm like, oh, man, I appreciate that you thought, you know, X topic is something I want to know more about. But particularly, I want to know, you know, how's Kelly gonna connect that to diarrhea?

• 5:46Daniel Whiteson?

  I want the Kelly over-research treatment of this question.

• 5:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's right.

• 5:49Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 5:50Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, those are always like, they're exciting for me because usually I don't know the answer. And so it's an excuse to like dive in and do a ton of research. But also, it's just very flattering that someone thought, I need to know what Kelly thinks about banana slugs. And that always, I don't know, makes me feel great.

• 6:06Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, well, let's hear some questions from listeners. Our first question is from John McJunkin, who seems to be having a debate with a friend and wants us to weigh in.

• 6:15Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, that's, that's always a little bit dangerous. At least it's not a debate with a partner. Let's go ahead and see her the question.

• 6:22Speaker 07

  Hey, Daniel and Kelly. I'm John McJunkin, an old guy in Arizona with over 40 years in the music and audio engineering biz. And I think a lot about sound. I was once told by a friend that some meteors have enough mass and energy to create sound that is audible at ground level. He said he'd heard a meteor once make a fizzy whooshy sound. Does this ring true to you? It sort of seems plausible. The 1883 eruption of Krakatoa is said to have been audible thousands of miles away. But there's no way that a meteor could produce anywhere near the same massive force as a huge volcano eruption. And considering that it would take sound something like five minutes to travel from the mesosphere down to ground level, it could be a bit of a challenge to correlate a specific whoosh with a specific meteor.

• 7:05Speaker 07

  It would be super cool if meteors actually are audible, but I have my doubts. What do you think? If meteors are audible at ground level, maybe we could hear the Doppler-shifting rock and roll played by aliens as they zoom by if they have their windows rolled down. Thank you both so much for all you do.

• 7:24Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, this is fun. On the one hand, I think it would have been really interesting to have been present for the, what is it, Tunguska? Was that a meteor?

• 7:33Daniel Whiteson?

  Which flattened all those trees in Siberia?

• 7:35Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. To be able to like have heard that or been far enough away to have like felt a little bit of the pressure wave, but not been so close that you got like absolutely decimated. But yeah, I totally love this idea of imagining or knowing, like, what would it be like? This thing that I'll never see, tell me what it might be like.

• 7:53Daniel Whiteson?

  I'm glad that we don't live in interesting times when it comes to things from space, you know? It's fun to imagine and to wonder what that would be like. But boy, it could be really catastrophic, so.

• 8:05Kelly Weinersmith?

  Instead, we live in AI and geopolitical interesting times. So I guess time will tell which one we prefer.

• 8:11Daniel Whiteson?

  But mostly, we can go about our days without worrying about death from above due to falling rocks. But John is asking a really fun question, and it turns out to have a fascinating and subtle answer. Basically, he's asking, can you hear a meteor? And so let's first remind ourselves, like, what is hearing all about? How does that all work? Remember that sound is pressure waves, right? So things moving through the air change the airflow and make waves. The way that you are hearing me right now is some speaker is vibrating, and that is pushing physically, mechanically on some air. Even if you're getting like a digital signal and it seems all fancy, in the end, there's a speaker with a drum that's vibrating

• 8:54Daniel Whiteson?

  according to those digital signals and pushing the air. And your ear is hearing it because it's receiving those pressure waves in the air. So all of sound is pressure waves. And it travels at around 800 miles per hour, 1,200 kilometers per hour.

• 9:10Kelly Weinersmith?

  It still blows my mind that like something that's vibrating in my headphones is able to both make the sound of Daniel and the sound of Kelly. Like, I don't know, I'm impressed.

• 9:20Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, I think we had an episode on sound recently, and we talked about how, you know, voices are a mixture of different frequencies. And like the thing that makes you recognize my voice or your voice is that particular mixture of frequencies. Did I tell you about getting recognized by my voice?

• 9:38Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, yeah, you didn't tell me the whole story. Tell me the whole story.

• 9:41Daniel Whiteson?

  I was on vacation in Yosemite, walking across the parking lot, talking to Katrina, and somebody stopped me and said, "Excuse me, are you Daniel?" And I was like, "Um, do I know you?" And he was like, "No, but I listen to your podcast."

• 9:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  What?

• 9:55Daniel Whiteson?

  And this guy like drives across the country in a van and listens to us and knows our voices.

• 10:01Kelly Weinersmith?

  Hi, Van Guy!

• 10:02Daniel Whiteson?

  I know. And his brain was just like, "Wait a second, I know that voice."

• 10:06Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's amazing.

• 10:07Daniel Whiteson?

  And he said to me, "It's so weird to hear your voice coming out of your mouth." And I was like, "That's how it happens, man."

• 10:12Kelly Weinersmith?

  [laughing]

• 10:15Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, so you know, you can hear things that happen near you, but the farther away something is, the more diluted the power is. It's just like lots of other stuff. You have flashlight, the intensity of the light goes like one over distance squared. It's the same with sound. Somebody claps their hands, then the loudness of that sound decreases with distance, actually with distance squared. So for example, if you're standing next to an airplane, it sounds really, really loud. If you have an airplane flying overhead, you can hear it, but it's not as loud. If you see an airplane flying over you at like 30,000 feet or whatever, you can't hear it. It's too far away. I mean, technically, if you had a super microphone, maybe you could hear it, but the sound is really dispersed because of the distance.

• 11:00Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay, got it.

• 11:01Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, but we're not interested in hearing airplanes. We want to hear about meteors, right? So what are meteors and how do they make sound? Meteors are just rocks hitting the atmosphere. Remember, stuff in the solar system is moving, and the typical orbital speed is like 30 kilometers per second. That's the speed at which the Earth is going around the sun. So if you have something floating in the solar system or moving in the solar system, and the Earth runs into it, or equivalently, it runs into the Earth, you can expect it to impact at around 30 kilometers per second, maybe more if they're heading towards each other, or a little bit less if it's a glancing blow, but that's the order of magnitude. And what happens when rocks hit the atmosphere at 30 kilometers

• 11:41Daniel Whiteson?

  per second, right, is that you get a collision. And people think about this in terms of friction, but actually what's happening is that the air in front of the meteor gets so rapidly compressed that it turns into plasma. Just like how in the sun, you're compressing gas and it gets hot because of the pressure, and it starts to glow. That's what's happening in front of the asteroid. The gas in front of it gets super duper compressed, and it starts to glow. Then that heat disintegrates the asteroid.

• 12:12Kelly Weinersmith?

  That is fascinating, but has no connection to why you hear sound. Is that right? That's just like an illustration of how fast it's going?

• 12:19Daniel Whiteson?

  So that's what creates the visible signature.

• 12:22Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 12:22Daniel Whiteson?

  Right, is the glowing light.

• 12:23Kelly Weinersmith?

  Got it.

• 12:24Daniel Whiteson?

  But the plasma and the disintegration of the asteroid also creates sound, right? Because it's basically an explosion, right? You have this like plasma being created, and just like how you create high density, high temperature, high pressure when you set off a bomb, and the same thing is happening. And the scale of the effect depends entirely on the size of the object.

• 12:45Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 12:46Daniel Whiteson?

  And so what you typically see, like if you're looking up at night and you see a shooting star, you're probably seeing an object that's between a millimeter and a centimeter in size.

• 12:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  No.

• 12:55Daniel Whiteson?

  And it streaks across the sky, yes, and makes a visible track, and doesn't make it to the ground. It disintegrates before it hits the ground.

• 13:03Kelly Weinersmith?

  I was sure that shooting stars were like a meter or something. And yes, they disintegrated before they hit the ground, but like bigger than a centimeter or a millimeter, like the fact that you could see something from so far away that was a centimeter bit, that's huge!

• 13:19Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 13:20Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's amazing. It's not huge, it's tiny.

• 13:21Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes. We should be very glad that we're not seeing multiple meter-sized impactors every night.

• 13:28Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 13:28Daniel Whiteson?

  Because a meter-sized impactor leaves about the energy of a nuclear bomb when it disintegrates.

• 13:34Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's so good, okay.

• 13:35Daniel Whiteson?

  So like a centimeter is a shooting star, up to like 10 centimeter, we call a fireball. And some of those fragments even make it down to the ground to give you like meteorites, right? Those look fragments of these rocks left on the ground. If you're up to like a meter, then you can get ground impacts. Like the whole thing can actually hit the ground, like meteor crater in Arizona.

• 13:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 13:56Daniel Whiteson?

  Up to 20 meters wide was the size of the rock that caused the event in Chelyabinsk. Basically, the energy of a nuclear bomb.

• 14:05Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 14:05Daniel Whiteson?

  If you go up to 50 meters, then you get maybe city-scale devastation. Something 100 meters wide can wipe out a whole region like, you know, New England. If it's a kilometer wide, you're getting global effects, mass casualties. If it's 10 kilometers wide, then you have a mass extinction event, something like the dinosaurs. Bigger than that, and you're talking danger to the structure of the Earth itself.

• 14:31Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay. I'm not sleeping well tonight.

• 14:33Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, exactly. But fortunately, the tiny ones are very common, and the big ones are very, very rare.

• 14:41Kelly Weinersmith?

  Phew.

• 14:41Daniel Whiteson?

  So a millimeter across is very common. We're talking like millions are hitting the Earth every day at a millimeter or smaller.

• 14:48Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 14:49Daniel Whiteson?

  And as it gets bigger, it gets very, very rare. But the question we're asking today is, can you hear them, right? And so absolutely, these make shock waves, right? Because we're looking at a collision, and the collision is going to create shock waves in the air. The amount of energy released by like a 20-centimeter impactor at like 20 kilometers per second carries like tens of tons of TNT of energy. You know, you can measure energy in terms of like joules or kilocalories, but those are ridiculous when you're talking about explosions. So they have this unit of tons of TNT, which I think is kind of hilarious and steampunk as a unit, but it's cool. And whether you can hear it on the ground depends on a lot of things. It depends on like the speed, the altitude,

• 15:32Daniel Whiteson?

  the trajectory, and also the composition of it. It depends on like whether it explodes high in the atmosphere. Does it survive down to the ground? Like a denser iron meteor of the same size survives to lower altitudes, which creates a stronger shock wave at the surface. So in order to make something that you can hear on the ground, you probably need something like between 10 centimeters and a meter, what they call a fireball, the kind of thing that will leave stuff that makes it all the way to the ground. But here's the key thing about John's question, is that remember that sound is delayed relative to light. So if you see the thing streaking across the sky, then you would probably hear it much later, because it's still like tens of kilometers up in the atmosphere. It's

• 16:17Daniel Whiteson?

  pretty far away.

• 16:18Kelly Weinersmith?

  And this is like lightning and thunder, right? Like you

• 16:21Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly.

• 16:21Kelly Weinersmith?

  see the lightning, and then you count to see how long it is till you hear the thunder to figure out how far away that lightning strike was.

• 16:28Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly. The light and the sound are created at the same time, but light travels much, much faster than sound, almost instantaneously across these distances. And sound travels pretty fast, but much slower than light. And so by measuring the difference in the arrival times, you can actually tell how far away it is. Because if it's really close to you, they arrive at the same time. So when you see lightning and hear thunder at the same time, like, uh-oh, something close by has been zapped.

• 16:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  Get inside!

• 16:55Daniel Whiteson?

  And if there's a big gap, it means it took a while for the sound to get there. So same story here. This is pretty far away. It's tens of kilometers up. And so if you see something in the atmosphere that's very bright, you should expect to hear it quite delayed. We're talking like minutes later, right? So the sound and the light should not be synchronized. And John is asking about hearing like a fizzy, whooshy sound that's correlated with the light. Like you're looking up at the sky and you see a streak, and at the same time, you hear something.

• 17:28Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 17:29Daniel Whiteson?

  And that sounds improbable, right? Because of this whole issue of the speed of sound and the speed of light.

• 17:33Kelly Weinersmith?

  Sounds like John wins.

• 17:35Daniel Whiteson?

  No, but actually, it turns out, this can't happen.

• 17:38Kelly Weinersmith?

  What?

• 17:38Daniel Whiteson?

  And not by sound like breaking the laws of physics. When this plasma is produced, it can also generate low-frequency electromagnetic waves. So not visible light, way too low frequency for us to see, but those travel also at the speed of light. And then they can hit stuff nearby, things like leaves, or hair, or glasses, and induce vibrations in them.

• 18:01Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh no, John is wrong!

• 18:04Daniel Whiteson?

  And so these things can act like tiny speakers.

• 18:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  Whoa.

• 18:07Daniel Whiteson?

  So essentially, the information is transmitted at the speed of light, just like if you were sending it along wires. And then stuff around you acts like speakers. And so this is called electrophonic sounds. It's rare, and it's hard to study, but experts now generally accept that this is a real phenomenon.

• 18:26Kelly Weinersmith?

  Whoa.

• 18:26Daniel Whiteson?

  In order to generate these kind of electrophonic sounds, you'd need an impactor that's like probably several tens of centimeters across, so a pretty big one.

• 18:34Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 18:35Daniel Whiteson?

  So it's rare, it's unusual, but it's not impossible, John.

• 18:39Kelly Weinersmith?

  Whoa. All right. Sorry, John. That's probably not the answer you were hoping for, but it's an interesting one. So let's hear what John has to say.

• 18:46Speaker 07

  Thanks, Daniel and Kelly. So I'm okay with the answer, Kelly, because I learned something. I had never heard of electrophonic sound, and it's certainly not a phenomenon that would typically come up in conversations with my music producer and audio engineer colleagues. We tend to talk about things like the inverse square law in sound propagation, and the effect of things like temperature, atmospheric pressure, and humidity on the speed of sound. But you can bet that now I'll tell my advanced live sound students about electrophonic sound. It's a treat for this extraordinary to get a carefully measured response from his absolute favorite podcast. Thanks so much.

• 19:34Speaker 05

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 19:54Speaker 03

  I'm like a kid when I play music and I make music and I'm constantly asking questions. You know, whether it's an instrument I haven't played, or it's a melody that seems foreign. You know this, every night you play a show and it's the same set, but it's not the same show. At a certain point, your brain kind of goes on autopilot. When I'm in the studio, or if I'm making music, that's where that curiosity kind of comes back, you know? I haven't lost it yet, but I'm also on my sophomore album, so, and you, you obviously are an expert here.

• 20:19Speaker 05

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, what's up? This is Kelvin Washington from The iCouple with Rob Parker and Kelvin Washington. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it starts with a great deal on off-road-ready Tacoma or half-ton Tundra. Two of Toyota's longest-lasting trucks, combining power for work, tech for adventures, and style in between. Built on a reputation for quality and reliability, Toyota trucks are known for holding their value, which could mean big savings when it's time for your next Toyota. So get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shoptoyota.com for more.

• 21:04Speaker 05

  Toyota, let's go places. The biggest game of the season, right here, right now.

• 21:10Speaker 03

  Starts Saturday strong. It's Big Noon Saturday on Fox. And here we go. It all starts at 10 Eastern with Big Noon Kickoff, live with an epic pregame. The crowd, the atmosphere, this is what makes it special. Then, it's America's number one game. What a hit. The best pregame, the best announcers, the biggest games. Down the sideline, touchdown. It's Big Noon Saturday, noon Eastern on Fox. This is Hoda Kotb from Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. Halloween has a funny way of making you buy things you'd never normally buy. A 10-foot skeleton? Sure. A full-size fog machine? Why not? Three bags of candy that somehow become six bags of candy? It happens.

• 21:52Speaker 03

  Which brings me to the Chase Freedom Flex Card, the savvy decision that will earn you more cash back on the everyday purchases, plus the extraordinary Halloween tricks and treats. With Freedom Flex, you earn even more treats on your Halloween and everyday needs. You get 5% cash back on popular rotating quarterly categories, 3% on dining and drugstores, and 1% on all other purchases. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. That's no tricks, all treats. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. So sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex Card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex. This is a paid collaboration with Chase Freedom Flex. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N.A.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  Member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 22:42Kelly Weinersmith?

  And we're back, and the next question is a very fun question from Grant.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  Hello, Daniel and Kelly. I grew up in a scientist and science communicator household, and my dad gave some pop-sci interviews in the 70s on topics like animal cognition and magnetic field sensing that brought out the weirdos. As such, nut letters were a regular part of our family life through the 80s, with the best of America's exuberantly amateur theoreticians writing to us to explain why quantum magnetic ESP is being suppressed by fluoride. I've always had a nostalgia for that age of more innocent crack pottery. Do you have favorite crackpot theories? The ones that are just too much fun to get upset at? Is Daniel secretly rooting for the electric universe cranks?

• 23:40Speaker 03

  Or is Kelly an unacknowledged enthusiast of deep-hot biosphere abiogenic oil? Is the next podcast guest going to be Gene Ray or Ludwig von Plutonium? Yours and not taking anything too seriously, Grant.

• 23:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, my gosh. Okay, where do we start? Let's start by talking about how much we love getting emails.

• 23:59Daniel Whiteson?

  I do love getting emails. You know, I think that science is by the people and for the people, and it's especially important now to emphasize that. And I think that academics shouldn't be walled off in universities and unavailable. And so I think it's important that we break down these barriers and that everybody feels like they can access and a little bit participate in science, at the very least communicate with people who are being paid by them through their tax dollars to do science. So I love getting emails, not just from listeners, but from anybody out there who's thinking

• 24:37Daniel Whiteson?

  about the universe and wants to, in good faith, participate in this joyful exploration of how things work, right?

• 24:46Kelly Weinersmith?

  Well, then, can I ask you a kind of Kelly is grouchy question?

• 24:49Daniel Whiteson?

  Do you have another kind?

• 24:52Kelly Weinersmith?

  No. So here it goes. So I've been seeing an uptick in emails from high school students, and I love getting emails from high school students out of the blue, but I've been seeing an uptick in emails from students who essentially say, "I am required to write an essay on whatever I want, and part of my requirement is I have to interview an expert. And it needs to be a Zoom call. Can I have an hour of your time?" Have you been getting those kinds of? And what do you think of those? Because I, here, can I, real quick, what I think of those is that I feel like if you're trying to teach students how to do research, having them learn that it's okay to reach

• 25:33Kelly Weinersmith?

  out to experts is good, but I don't think that the system can handle, I don't want to call it a burden, because again, I love talking to high school students, and every once in a while, I'll have a high school student say, "I read your book. I've got some questions. Can we have a Zoom call? Absolutely. I would love to talk to you." But I get students who definitely don't care about the topic, but have to, have to have a 30-minute, well, you know, they didn't read the book, clearly.

• 26:01Daniel Whiteson?

  They're assigned to.

• 26:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes, this is an assignment they have to do. There's really no joy you can see in their eyes when you're talking about this topic. And so, yeah, what do you think about that being an assignment? Because I do want people to feel like they can reach out to us, but I also can't say yes to every invitation like this I get, because I wouldn't be able to write my next book.

• 26:20Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, I agree with you. I don't say yes to those. I offer an email exchange. I say, "Send me a list of questions, and I'll write back to you." Because face-to-face chats take a lot of time, they're hard to schedule, they're very inefficient. And I prefer asynchronous stuff, that I can squeeze in responses whenever I have a moment. You know, I use email, especially with the public, as a break. I'm working on something, it's hard, my brain is tired, oh, let's see what's in the inbox. And there's always something fun in there to read. And so I try to answer every email, and I also get a lot of random theories. You know, here's my theory of how physics went wrong in the beginning of the 20th century. And I read all of those.

• 27:05Daniel Whiteson?

  And, you know, I know this question from Grant is in good faith, and there are folks out there who are crackpots, but they don't always know that they're crackpots. You know, they're operating in good faith, they're trying to explore the universe, they're trying to figure it out, and as long as it's in good faith, then like, I welcome it. And so I give everybody, you know, 15 to 30 minutes. I'll read your theory, I'll write back, and I'll tell you what I think, and here are the flaws, and here's what you might work on. And often, people are not happy to get that feedback, because it's not always, "You're right, and let's meet in Stockholm to chat with the king of Sweden about it." It's often like, "Oh, you didn't think of this," or "Here's a concern," or whatever. But I think that there's an important role for outsiders, but I want to clarify this

• 27:49Daniel Whiteson?

  question of being in good faith. You know, there are definitely lots of people out there who want to understand the universe and want to come up with a theory, or find the current theories of physics unsatisfactory. You know, like, "I don't like that there's no local realism," or, "I don't like this idea of the fabric of spacetime." And that's cool, and it's totally valid, if you go off and then build your own theory. But there's also a growing population with an unfortunately large platform that I think is not operating in good faith. You know, people who are out there and are pushing conspiracy theories, spreading misinformation for clout, trying to convince you that academics are fraudsters and we're just wasting your

• 28:32Daniel Whiteson?

  time and tax dollars while padding our fat wallets, and everything we're doing is nonsense. And like, yeah, I know you're laughing at the fat wallets, right? But there's a lot of people out there who are very receptive to the message that like elites are dumb, actually, and/or lying to you. And here's the secret truth, which you can know.

• 28:52Kelly Weinersmith?

  Right, right.

• 28:53Daniel Whiteson?

  And even if those theories really make no sense and don't survive any level of scrutiny, you know, I'm talking like Terrence Howard's total nonsense, one times one equals two level stuff. There's a big audience for it and a lot of people buy it because they're primed to believe that elites are dumb, actually. And so that's what I mean when I say like, people not operating in good faith.

• 29:18Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah.

• 29:18Daniel Whiteson?

  You know, folks we've talked about on the pod before, you know, Ashton Forbes and this whole crowd of folks who are out there just to build clout and get your attention and your clicks and your ad dollars, not really trying to figure out how the universe works.

• 29:34Kelly Weinersmith?

  My equivalent is that it seems to me like there's more people out there these days trying to sell remedies for parasitic infections. And in order to sell those in the United States where there's not a lot of parasitic infections, you need to convince people that they're infected, but they don't realize it and that they could be feeling better. And the reason that they're tired isn't that you got five kids or, you know, like in kids and plus work is exhausting. It's because of the parasites. And so I'm getting more and more, not through the D K E U email, but I'm getting more and more folks reaching out saying like, I found this in my body. And what do I do? And, and it used to be that I would say, hey, look, I'm really sorry. I can't.

• 30:18Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 30:19Kelly Weinersmith?

  I can't try to diagnose based on a picture. Like, that doesn't look like a parasite to me. Very often it will be like, it, it looks pretty clear to me that's a piece of thread or microplastics or something, but it looks nothing like any parasite I've ever seen. But on the other hand, I don't know what their other symptoms are, and I'm not a medical doctor. And so I always tell them like, you should talk to a doctor and maybe you should be open to the idea that it might be helpful to talk to another kind of medical professional. It might be helpful to talk to someone with, you know, an emphasis in mental health, which is, you know, like the nicest way to say like, look, we all have times. I mean, the number of times I've thought I had cancer was crazy.

• 30:55Daniel Whiteson?

  I have diagnosed myself with toe cancer so many times.

• 30:58Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes. Well, and, and the, the solution for me, I needed to go on anxiety medications for a little while and talk to a therapist. And I think for some people, their stress manifests as maybe I'm infected by a parasite. And that's what they focus on instead of, do I have cancer?

• 31:11Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 31:11Kelly Weinersmith?

  And so anyway, it used to be that I would tell people, I'm sorry, I'm not the right kind of medical professional. It's not ethical for me to tell you what I think based on a photo. You need to talk to someone. But now the responses that are coming back aren't, okay, well, thanks for at least responding. The responses are, your community is suppressing the fact that there's a lot more parasites.

• 31:32Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, no.

• 31:33Kelly Weinersmith?

  And so now I'm getting these conspiracy theory.

• 31:36Daniel Whiteson?

  Are you in bed with big parasite killing?

• 31:37Kelly Weinersmith?

  I get, I don't, I'm not even sure I understand what the argument is. Why would, I mean, the parasitologists are always complaining, there's not enough jobs for us. We should be trying to like, you know, get the word out that there's, everyone's affected by parasites. You need to hire us to solve all these problems. But like, anyway, I'm getting a lot more people who are aggressively responding to me, saying that I am part of a like movement to cover this stuff up. Those are my least favorite emails.

• 32:01Daniel Whiteson?

  Those conspiracy theories never make any sense to me. And they strike me as odd because they don't survive, you know, even just like meeting one scientist, like the ones where they tell you physicists are suppressing the truth. They don't want to change the textbooks or like archaeologists don't want to rewrite the narrative. Like, have you met an archaeologist? Have you met a scientist? You can't get them to shut up about their new ideas, how everybody's wrong and I have a theory or whatever. And like, that's the dream. That's what everybody's trying to do. I want to disprove the standard model more than anything else. My personal scientific fantasy is to find something that makes no sense and requires

• 32:42Daniel Whiteson?

  us to like, throw everything away and start over. And that's not unique. Like, everybody feels that way. So there's something pervasive and sinister about these conspiracy theories because they mean that like, the people who are hearing them have no contact with scientists. And that's one reason why I want to be available. I want to be like, hey, look, I'm just a person being curious about the world like you are.

• 33:03Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yep, absolutely same.

• 33:05Daniel Whiteson?

  I've seen an uptick in a new kind of communication, which isn't too surprising, which is AI assisted theories of everything. It used to be people would write to me and say, I have this idea, this intuition, but I don't know how to express it with the math. Can you help me? And now instead it's, I have this idea, I fed it into Claude, here's what Claude wrote. I don't understand it. Can you read it?

• 33:27Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 33:28Daniel Whiteson?

  And that's not something I'm interested in doing. I'm interested in talking to people about their good faith ideas. I'm not so excited about talking to people's AIs about the AIs expression. Because if people produce something with AI, they can't read and they don't understand, then they can't tell whether it's nonsense. And 99% of the time it is, it's shiny nonsense that the AI produced to satisfy the user.

• 33:51Kelly Weinersmith?

  Right.

• 33:51Daniel Whiteson?

  And makes no sense. And so it's unfortunate, but I'm not interested in reading other people's AI output.

• 33:58Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah. Yeah. I'm, I'm not getting, I don't get a lot of AI output.

• 34:02Daniel Whiteson?

  Okay.

• 34:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  Thankfully. But, but I have friends who have gotten literal bags of feces sent to them in the mail, which maybe is worse.

• 34:11Daniel Whiteson?

  I think that's definitely worse.

• 34:12Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah.

• 34:13Daniel Whiteson?

  I can just hit delete and it's cleaned up. So.

• 34:15Kelly Weinersmith?

  Right, right. Yeah, no, this mess took a little bit more cleaning up afterwards. And it was, you know, came with a note like, I think I have parasites. Can you take a look? It was like, oh, absolutely not, friends. Absolutely not.

• 34:26Daniel Whiteson?

  So back to Grant's question, what are the favorite categories of theories? So I happened to be spending this week at the Aspen Center for Physics in beautiful Colorado. I come here every summer. It's wonderful. It's me and a bunch of theorists and we all talk about crazy ideas and whatever. And so I did a little informal survey and I asked folks like, hey, what kind of emails do you get? What theories do people tell you? What are your favorites? And unfortunately, most of them said, I don't read them. I just delete them. They're all the same.

• 34:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh.

• 34:55Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah. And I understand that, like, a lot of academics, you know, are overwhelmed by email and they don't respond to emails from colleagues. Or I have lots of colleagues who I will email and I never hear back from. I'm like, what's wrong with you?

• 35:08Kelly Weinersmith?

  Right, yeah.

• 35:09Daniel Whiteson?

  But if they can't even respond to emails from like, other physicists they're working with actively, then, you know, how could they respond to the public? So I think there's not a broad appetite among physicists for these theories. And it's true, we get a lot that are very similar. You know, physics took a wrong turn in the beginning of 20th century. Einstein was wrong, this kind of stuff. So there's a commonality to them and definitely patterns. And so I think a lot of physicists just don't read them.

• 35:35Kelly Weinersmith?

  To be fair to your colleagues, so like I, we, you and I both got an email once that was really long and it contained a long PDF. And I looked at it and I immediately was like, this would take me hours. I can't, I don't have hours. I don't know what to do. And I, I wrote to you and I was like, I want to respond, but I don't have time. What do we do? And you had a really good response, which was, what, you give everything 15, any email you get gets 15 minutes and you give your initial response based on 15 minutes? And I thought that was really nice. Cause like, you know, 15 minutes is actually still a lot of time from someone who gets a lot of emails.

• 36:13Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 36:14Kelly Weinersmith?

  And you then, I, you know, we share the same email box. And so I saw what your response was. And you gave a like thoughtful response based on those 15 minutes. And I thought that was really nice. And so I don't, I wonder if maybe if everybody had like a policy where it's like, you know, once a month, I'm willing to spend an hour and however many emails are in the box, I'll get to, you know, I'll give each of them 15 minutes and some might have to wait till the next month or, I don't know. Like, some way to respond, I think would be nice if you can.

• 36:41Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, I think, I hope that people prefer an imperfect response to no response because those are the options, right? Because I can't spend a week on every single one, coming up with alternatives and et cetera.

• 36:54Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah.

• 36:54Daniel Whiteson?

  But, you know, that's the whole context. And Grant's question was really like, which are your favorites? And I'll say that, um, you know, I like any sincere, good faith attempt to understand the universe. If it came from your brain and it's really your way of making sense of the cosmos and our experience in it, I love to hear it. My favorites are geometric ones. Like, I really like geometry. I like visual explanations. I like things that click together. I'm the kind of person, if you like, remember back when you're learning algebra and you're like solving a system of equations. I don't like thinking about it as equations on the page. I like thinking about it geometrically because two linear equations are the same as two lines and the solution is where they cross. And to me,

• 37:38Daniel Whiteson?

  that solution is much more appealing than like substitution and, you know, manipulating symbols on the page. So I like theories of everything that come from geometry, like people who think there's some hidden underneath geometry and out of that comes the electron and all the quarks and whatever. And I think that's probably true.

• 37:57Kelly Weinersmith?

  Cool.

• 37:57Daniel Whiteson?

  You know, I think there is something deep down, out of which comes all the complexity we see. So that's my favorite category.

• 38:04Kelly Weinersmith?

  I don't think I have a favorite category. Like, I, I love, I, I get a little bit intimidated sometimes when I get asked a question, for example, about how the immune system works. And if I get a specific medical question, I have to pass on that. I'm willing to give like broad strokes about like, this is what this parasite tends to do, but I can't get into super specifics because I've just, that doesn't seem ethical to me. But I, I don't know. In general, anytime anyone is like, more about banana slugs or, or more, you know, just, I, I get a lot of like, here's this natural thing I saw or heard about. I want to know more about it, but I don't really know where to go. That is like, sort of trusted, where I can be sure that I'm getting good information. So can you tell me about it?

• 38:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  And I, I don't know. I love, I, I really appreciate the trust and I really appreciate the opportunity to get to dig into, into more natural stuff because I love reading about it.

• 39:01Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, I also consulted our informal third co-host, Katrina.

• 39:05Kelly Weinersmith?

  Nice.

• 39:06Daniel Whiteson?

  And I asked her about it and she said she really loves when listeners have like, changed their diet, for example. Yesterday, we got an email from somebody who said that because of the podcast, they're now a big fan of beans and they even joined the Rancho Gordo Bean Club because of the podcast. And I'm thinking, all right, may the fiber be with you.

• 39:24Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, no, that's, do you really say that?

• 39:29Kelly Weinersmith?

  I'm writing down the name of the Rancho Gordo Bean Club because I've been meaning to ask you guys the name of that so I can join it too. But anyway.

• 39:35Daniel Whiteson?

  Absolutely. Yes. So we love emails from listeners. We love thoughts from listeners. We love theories from listeners. Please write to us. We will write you back.

• 39:44Kelly Weinersmith?

  We will.

• 39:44Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, Grant, I hope that answered your question.

• 39:47Kelly Weinersmith?

  Thanks for that question, Grant. Thank you, Daniel and Kelly.

• 39:50Speaker 03

  That answer took an unexpected turn that really hit a nerve for me because 35 years ago, I was one of those kids emailing a prominent scientist with a question for a high school research paper. I got a cruel blow off from the secretary that still smarts, and I ended up choosing engineering over physics shortly after. Thank you for your heartfelt and frankly touching answers, and keep up the good work.

• 40:26Daniel Whiteson?

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by breakout singer-songwriter Alex Warren.

• 40:47Speaker 03

  I'm like a kid when I play music and I make music and I'm constantly asking questions. You know, whether it's an instrument I haven't played, or it's a melody that seems foreign. You know, there's every night you play a show and it's the same set, but it's not the same show. At a certain point, your brain kind of goes on autopilot. When I'm in the studio, or if I'm making music, that's where that curiosity kind of comes back, you know? I haven't lost it yet, but I'm also on my sophomore album. So, and you, you obviously are an expert here.

• 41:12Daniel Whiteson?

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 41:21Speaker 04

  This is Shirley Strawberry from the Steve Harvey Morning Show. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it starts with a great deal on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or a Corolla sedan with the latest features and tech. Or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you could get more at trade-in, get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places. The biggest game of the season, right here, right now.

• 42:06Speaker 03

  Starts Saturday strong. It's Big Noon Saturday on Fox. And here we go. It all starts at 10 Eastern with Big Noon Kickoff, live with an epic pregame. The crowd, the atmosphere, this is what makes it special. Then, it's America's number one game. What a hit. The best pregame, the best announcers, the biggest games. Down the sideline, touchdown. It's Big Noon Saturday, noon Eastern on Fox. This is Hoda Kotb from Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb. Halloween has a funny way of making you buy things you'd never normally buy. A 10-foot skeleton? Sure. A full-size fog machine? Why not. Three bags of candy that somehow become six bags of candy? It happens.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  Which brings me to the Chase Freedom Flex card, the savvy decision that will earn you more cash back on the everyday purchases, plus the extraordinary Halloween tricks and

• 42:59Kelly Weinersmith?

  treats. With Freedom Flex, you earn even more treats on your Halloween and everyday needs. You get 5% cash back on popular rotating quarterly categories, 3% on dining and drugstores, and 1% on all other purchases. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. That's no tricks, all treats. More ways to earn, more ways to get rewarded. So, sign up for the Chase Freedom Flex card. Learn more at chase.com/getflex. This is a paid collaboration with Chase Freedom Flex. Cards issued by JP Morgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Subject to credit approval. Offer subject to change. Terms apply.

• 43:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  All right. Next up, we've got a question from the United Kingdom. Let's hear what Liam has to say.

• 43:54Speaker 07

  Hi, Daniel and Kelly. My name's Liam, and I'm a research technician from the UK. My work takes me to a lot of old growth forests and ancient woodlands. And being around the old trees all the time kind of got me thinking, how old can something get? How old can the trees get? How old could the carbon in the trees get? How old can the atoms in the trees get? What is the oldest something can be? Looking forward to your answer.

• 44:22Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow. Doesn't it sound like Liam has like the best job?

• 44:25Kelly Weinersmith?

  I was just thinking that. Like, if I could, you know, roll back the tape of my life and start again, working in old growth forests and ancient woodlands is like top-tier awesomeness.

• 44:36Daniel Whiteson?

  Being around old trees all the time, gosh, it just puts everything in perspective. It makes me wonder, like, what has this tree seen? You know, like, my life is a blink. I was just in the redwood forests of California and like saw the sequoias and like, wow, it just makes all your problems seem really minor, you know?

• 44:57Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, that's right. You should live in a sequoia forest and then be constantly blissed out. That would be great.

• 45:03Daniel Whiteson?

  Maybe. So Liam is asking about how old these trees can get, and how old the stuff in them can get, and how old is everything anyway? Wonderful question. And so remember, we have an episode from last year about old trees. It was from May 2025. And Kelly did a great job researching it, and of course acknowledging that the best trees and the oldest trees are in California.

• 45:26Kelly Weinersmith?

  Oh, my goodness. I'm not sure I said that. There were some competitors. I don't remember exactly, but you're right, the bristlecone pines are pretty old.

• 45:33Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes. They're amazing. They're like almost 5,000 years old. It's really incredible. Though at risk of toppling California, I will say that there is a contentious competitor, right? Not an individual tree, but there's this Pando network you've probably heard of. These are 47,000 aspen trees in Utah that are connected by a single root system and considered by some ecologists to be a single organism. And I think they have like a subtle genetic relationship. Do you know something about this?

• 46:06Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yeah, it always felt a little bit like cheating to me. Cause like, you know, the initial tree could have long since died, but it spread out and produced other trees that share the same root network. But you know, trees have a totally different way of living than humans do. That totally blows my mind. So maybe this works for trees. But yes, I do know. And I've seen some patches of aspens. And holy cow, there are fewer more beautiful things on this planet than looking at a big patch of aspens, especially when they're changing colors.

• 46:37Daniel Whiteson?

  And I'm like in Aspen this week. I'm like looking out my window right now. I see aspens. They're gorgeous.

• 46:41Kelly Weinersmith?

  So lucky.

• 46:42Daniel Whiteson?

  And I love the idea that this like community of trees is the single biggest organism on the planet. That's amazing. It has a name, right? They call it Pando. And they think that it's 14,000 to 16,000 years old. Right? So like, what has Pando seen?

• 46:58Kelly Weinersmith?

  I thought there was a huge patch of fungus under Oregon or something that we thought was the biggest organism on the planet.

• 47:04Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. I think we're gonna have to do a whole episode on what's the biggest organism on the planet or something, a ranking.

• 47:09Kelly Weinersmith?

  And I think we should also answer the question, what counts as an organism? Like, does the, you know, 47,000 trees that make up the aspen stand count as one individual? Is that fair?

• 47:20Daniel Whiteson?

  Right. Yes, exactly.

• 47:21Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 47:22Daniel Whiteson?

  And if we could connect humans by root systems, would we all be one?

• 47:26Kelly Weinersmith?

  No, thanks. I'm going on record as no thanks.

• 47:30Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. So these are some examples of really old trees. And more generally, as we talked about in that episode, there's like 25 species of trees that can live more than 1,000 years. There are also lots of trees that don't live very long, like dogwoods live, you know, 20, 30, 40 years. And the science is still out on this, you know, why do some trees live really long and some don't? How is it an evolutionary benefit? Check out that whole episode for a deep dive by Kelly, as usual, on the age of trees.

• 47:58Kelly Weinersmith?

  That was so fun to research.

• 48:00Daniel Whiteson?

  Trees are fun to be around and to think about.

• 48:02Kelly Weinersmith?

  And to sit under. And yes. So how old are carbon molecules?

• 48:08Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah. So one of the most amazing thing about trees is that they build themselves out of air.

• 48:13Kelly Weinersmith?

  That's crazy. Yeah.

• 48:14Daniel Whiteson?

  Right? Like, think about how you plant a seed in the ground and a tree grows out of it. And you might think to yourself, oh, well, where does the stuff to make the tree come from? And your first instinct might be the ground. It's like pulling stuff out of the ground and assembling it. But no, it is pulling carbon out of the air. Trees literally are biological machines to build themselves out of air. It blows.

• 48:38Kelly Weinersmith?

  It's crazy. Yeah. Yep.

• 48:41Daniel Whiteson?

  We have a palm tree that we planted 15 years ago. One time we were going to go to CERN for like nine months and we had this potted plant that we got from IKEA, just like a little potted palm tree. And we're like, oh, this is going to die. Let's just put it outside and we put it in the corner of our yard. And then we just left it there. And now it is taller than our house.

• 48:59Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 49:00Daniel Whiteson?

  Right? And I look at the thing sometimes, I'm like, that's just air. It's just air. It's unbelievable. Anyway, so the point is to answer Liam's question, like trees have carbon in them and this carbon is in several forms and there's a very complex carbon cycle on earth where you have carbon in the atmosphere and then trees can take that carbon in, right? To build themselves up and trees are about 50% carbon, often stored in cellulose, but then they die and then those trees return that carbon to the soil. And it can get washed out into the oceans where the carbon is mostly in the form of like HCO3 and CO3. And sometimes marine organisms can take that carbon in and make calcium carbonate.

• 49:44Daniel Whiteson?

  And if enough of that builds up, then you can get like limestone. So sometimes this carbon cycle can take like 10 or 100 million years before the limestone on the bottom of the ocean gets like subducted by tectonic activity back into magma, melted, and then like burped up back into the atmosphere by volcanoes. It's an incredible cycle.

• 50:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  And, and I'll mention that our plant friend Manuel Lerdau wants to come back on the show to talk about carbon cycle and stuff. That's, that's a lot of what he works on. So there'll be a lot more about this coming soon. And, you know, I have to throw space in there whenever I can. Well, you know, one, one of my favorite examples for why it would be hard to live on the moon is that the moon doesn't even have a lot of carbon.

• 50:28Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 50:28Kelly Weinersmith?

  And so it's like, how are you going to imagine growing things when you just don't even have carbon to start with? It's just so important. Okay. Anyway, back to trees.

• 50:37Daniel Whiteson?

  And so these cycles can be short, right? Like something can die and then decompose and then its carbon is back in the atmosphere. Or if like a forest fire comes through and burns the trees, the carbon is released back in the atmosphere.

• 50:49Kelly Weinersmith?

  Boo.

• 50:49Daniel Whiteson?

  So carbon can go into trees and back into the atmosphere in years. Or it could be like 200 million years, you know? And a single bit of carbon can be like a hunk of coal for a long, long time before it returns to the atmosphere. So individual carbon molecule that now we're talking about can be in one form for a long time or a short time. It's fascinating, many, many loops. And I'm really looking forward to that episode, digging into the carbon cycle.

• 51:16Kelly Weinersmith?

  But so is this, are we really answering Liam's question? Cause like, does it matter where the carbon has been? Like, I guess he wants to know, when did that carbon start?

• 51:26Daniel Whiteson?

  Yes.

• 51:27Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 51:27Daniel Whiteson?

  Right. So, well, I was thinking we talk about the trees and we talk about the molecules and now let's dig into the atoms, because you're right.

• 51:32Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay.

• 51:33Daniel Whiteson?

  If it changes from CO2 to calcium carbonate or whatever, it's the same carbon, right? Is it the same carbon? And the answer is yes, that the atoms are not changing, right? Chemistry is mostly clicking together things, but not changing their elements. So the carbon, the oxygen, the nitrogen, all of that stuff is just being rearranged. And that stuff is very, very old. It's all older than the earth, right? Because anything that's here on earth could not have been made on earth. You cannot make carbon or oxygen or nitrogen on earth. It requires fusion at the heart of stars.

• 52:08Kelly Weinersmith?

  Wow.

• 52:08Daniel Whiteson?

  So remember that the universe began and we mostly had hydrogen and then a little bit of helium. So the universe begins almost entirely hydrogen. And then to make this heavier stuff, carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, you need fusion at the heart of stars. And we have it here on earth because it was fused at the heart of some earlier star, which then exploded and spread its ashes through space. And that became part of the gas cloud, which formed our solar system. And any carbon atom that's in you or in a tree was created in that other star and survived that explosion and floated through space and survived the formation of the earth because none of these processes are powerful enough to break up carbon.

• 52:52Daniel Whiteson?

  And so it's been around for billions of years.

• 52:55Kelly Weinersmith?

  We are all star stuff.

• 52:57Daniel Whiteson?

  We are star stuff. Actually, we're mostly big bang stuff, right? Because the hydrogen that we're made out of is not star stuff. It was made during the big bang. And so like, if you get into the protons, right? All these elements, carbon, nitrogen, oxygen are made of a bunch of protons stuck together from the heart of stars. But where do those protons come from? Those all come from the big bang, right? So as the universe is cooling, we're talking 13.8 billion years ago, then quarks and gluons come together and cool. And instead of being a big soup, they fall together into mostly protons. And protons are stable. Protons, we think will live forever unless you like smash them together at the Large

• 53:42Daniel Whiteson?

  Hadron Collider or actually impact the earth like a super tiny little meteor, then they will live forever. Like you have a proton just sitting in space, come back in a hundred trillion years, we think you'll still have a proton. We don't know because we've only been able to measure protons and look for them decaying for, you know, a little while. But best measurements are that protons have a longer lifetime than the current age of the universe.

• 54:07Kelly Weinersmith?

  Okay. First, I, I think we're all just bang stuff, doesn't have the same, doesn't have the same flow as we're all just star stuff. But I see your point and I'm glad you corrected me. But, uh, but so when you are working at the LHC and you're destroying protons that otherwise would have lived forever, do you feel bad?

• 54:29Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, is it a proton genocide? I don't think protons have rights. No. So I don't think they have emotions. If they did and they, you know, if I was a panpsychic, somebody who believed that like consciousness is inherent in the universe and that electrons have a little bit of consciousness, then yes, I would feel bad. And now I'd have to feel very, very bad because we're doing it all the time, right? Like every 24 nanoseconds, we smash together like 10 to the 12 protons. So if I'm bad, I'm extremely bad.

• 54:57Kelly Weinersmith?

  That would be a lot to weigh on your conscience. Yeah.

• 55:02Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah, the protons are definitely not voting me their favorite person. So, you know, to answer Liam's question, trees are thousands of years old. The carbon molecules that are in them have probably been in that form for maybe longer, you know, up to millions of years old. The carbon atoms that are in those carbon molecules are definitely billions of years old. In the end, everything is made out of protons, which have been around since the universe was very, very young. It's all really, really old stuff. We're talking about the very beginning of time.

• 55:37Kelly Weinersmith?

  So even when you're not here anymore, the bits that were a part of you will go on living.

• 55:45Daniel Whiteson?

  Though they won't be in such a charming form again.

• 55:47Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes, you will have always been their best configuration. However, they'll go on to do other things. All right, Liam, what do you think?

• 55:56Speaker 07

  Hi guys, thanks for answering my question. While it's not too surprising that the molecules and particles in trees are probably going to be around for much longer, it's pretty cool to think about all the combinations and configurations they're going to be in past the earth, cell by day and beyond. I'm sad you think it's the best job in the world. It really is the best job in the world. I've just moved on to hydrography though, so less trees, more water, but should still be quite exciting. And thanks for answering my question. Also, I'm going to start a society for the protection of protons. Anyone is free to join, especially you, Daniel. Okay, thanks guys.

• 56:34Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. Thank you very much, everybody, for sharing your curiosity with us. We really do love hearing from you. We love answering your questions. We mean it right to us. We want to hear from you. Share your thoughts, share your ideas, share your curiosity. You'll hear back from us.

• 56:48Kelly Weinersmith?

  Yes. Daniel writes back in about 30 seconds. It takes me about a week. Write to us at [email protected] or you can share your questions with our amazing Discord community by going to danielandkelly.org and finding the link to our Discord channel.

• 57:02Daniel Whiteson?

  Thanks very much, everyone.

• 57:10Daniel Whiteson?

  Thanks, everybody, for listening. Please go and do us a favor and rate the show on whatever podcast app you're using. It really helps people find us.

• 57:18Kelly Weinersmith?

  Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is edited by the amazing Matt Kesselman.

• 57:23Daniel Whiteson?

  He really is a wizard. You can also find us online on Blue Sky, Instagram and X, D and K Universe. Come engage with us.

• 57:33Kelly Weinersmith?

  You can email us at [email protected]. We really do want to hear from you.

• 57:38Daniel Whiteson?

  And you can find our website, www.danielandkelly.org, where you'll also find an invitation to join our Discord where everybody comes and talks about the amazing universe.

• 57:50Kelly Weinersmith?

  And we also have the most amazing moderators. This is an iHeart Podcast. Thanks for joining us.

• 57:59Speaker 07

  This is Stugatz from Stugatz and Company Live. Buy smart, drive for less and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability. And it all starts with a great deal on an all-wheel drive Camry, Corolla Cross or a Corolla sedan with the latest features, N-Tech or test drive a spacious Grand Highlander or adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid models available, you can enjoy longer trips without all the stops. While Toyota's legendary resale value means you can get more at trade-in. Get a great deal today and a great value tomorrow. Shop toyota.com for deals and details. Toyota, let's go places. The biggest game of the season, right here, right now. Starts Saturday strong.

• 58:43Speaker 07

  It's Big Noon Saturday on Fox. And here we go.

• 58:47Daniel Whiteson?

  It all starts at 10 Eastern with Big Noon Kickoff, live with an epic pregame. The crowd, the atmosphere, this is what makes it special. Then it's America's number one game. What a hit. The best pregame, the best announcers, the biggest games. Down the sideline, touchdown. It's Big Noon Saturday, noon Eastern on Fox. Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln Original Series on the iHeart Radio app,

• 59:32Daniel Whiteson?

  YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 59:39Speaker 04

  Small businesses are the pulse of every community. They bring people together, create opportunities and drive growth. That's why Chase for Business helps small business owners like you by offering personalized guidance and digital tools that can help your business grow. With our guidance and your determination, you can take your business farther and help build a brighter future for your community. Learn more at chase.com/business. Chase for Business, make more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JP Morgan Chase Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Copyright 2026 JP Morgan Chase and Company.

• 1:00:13Kelly Weinersmith?

  This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.