Who really wrote Maxwell's equations?

Daniel and Kelly talk to Kathy Joseph about the true, twisted history of humanity's understanding of electromagnetism See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Daniel Whiteson?

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• 0:05Speaker 01

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• 0:35Speaker 02

  Hey, I'm Niall Rogers. This fall, I'll be driving across the country, meeting some of today's coolest and most fascinating artists. We'll explore the stories before the moments that changed everything. Because every musician remembers the moment where it all began. Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeart Radio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:12Speaker 03

  And I gotta tell you, Maxwell is hard to read. For weird, weird reasons. Maxwell, it's not all mathematical. It's mostly words, and with a little bit of math. But the math is confusingly written, and Maxwell makes ridiculous amounts of mathematical mistakes.

• 1:34Speaker 03

  At first, when I saw it, I'm like, I must be wrong. This is Maxwell. And then I realized, no, every paper is 80 pages long and has 80 mistakes in it.

• 1:44Speaker 04

  Oh, no. It's good to know you can be famous and make tons of mistakes.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 1:50Speaker 03

  And it's actually inspiring. But yeah, Maxwell had this amazing mind to take these crazy ideas from Faraday, which no one had thought of things this way, and put it in math terms. And I have nothing but the utmost respect and love for Maxwell. And also, reading him can give you a stomach ache.

• 2:15Daniel Whiteson?

  That's a little snippet from our conversation today about the history of science, specifically understanding who really came up with Maxwell's equations. How much did he rely on the experiments done before him? And how much did the theorists after him clean up his work? Welcome to Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe.

• 2:48Speaker 04

  Hello, I'm Kelly Wiener Smith, and I don't know anything about Faraday, or Maxwell, or any of the people that we're going to be talking about today, though I seem to remember Faraday being associated with the cage of some sort. Daniel, did we let him out of the cage eventually?

• 3:02Daniel Whiteson?

  He's still in there. Oh, my God. Somebody let him out. Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I've been taught the standard lore of physics history.

• 3:12Speaker 04

  Whoa. Does every physics class teach standard physics history lore? Or are there some classes where you just do the actual science with no history?

• 3:21Daniel Whiteson?

  No, I feel like there's a standard set of anecdotes that get passed down from generation to generation. You get a little bit of the flavor of the people when you're learning about the equations sometimes, but mostly it's just the equations. And it's usually not the equations the way those folks wrote them. It's usually always in the modern notation, which I find a little confusing because like, you know, Newton didn't write equations mathematically. He wrote sentences and he used verbs and stuff like this. And so it's funny to say, and then Newton wrote down this equation. It's like, well, that didn't actually happen, did it? So, yeah, it's confusing.

• 3:56Speaker 04

  All right, so we're about to talk to a historian of physics who has a bunch of amazing stories we're going to hear today. But do you have a favorite history of physics story?

• 4:04Daniel Whiteson?

  I do have a favorite, actually, though I'm not sure it's family friendly. It's a story of one guy who actually goes on to win the Nobel Prize, who every evening would come in and urinate on the competitor's experiment so that they weren't ready to run for the day.

• 4:20Speaker 04

  No.

• 4:20Daniel Whiteson?

  And the lore is that this was captured on video, though I've never actually seen the video myself. But yeah, this is a story bouncing around the halls of particle physics.

• 4:30Speaker 04

  Oh, my gosh, how long ago was this?

• 4:32Daniel Whiteson?

  This apparently was in the 70s.

• 4:35Speaker 04

  My favorite urine-based physics story, is it Hennig Brandt, the guy who discovered phosphorus by boiling his own urine and finding it accidentally? Is that right?

• 4:44Daniel Whiteson?

  No, nothing that glamorous. And I won't repeat the names in the story because I've been told by other people that the story is apocryphal. But whether it's true or not, it's a story which exists in the halls of physics and is told with much relish.

• 4:56Speaker 04

  But my urine story is true, right? Not apocryphal?

• 5:01Daniel Whiteson?

  I can't fact check that myself, but it sounds right.

• 5:03Speaker 04

  Okay, all right. We had a 3D printed trophy for BaFest based on a famous painting of this man boiling his urine to discover phosphorus. Anyway, so now that we've told some good stories, some true, some maybe not so true, should we transition to the definitely true stories that Kathy has for us today?

• 5:20Daniel Whiteson?

  That's right. Neither of us are historians of physics, so we reached out to Kathy Joseph, who is an expert in the history of electromagnetism, how all these crazy personalities wove their work together, to give us the understanding that we have today, and maybe the gaps that exist in those modern stories, and what we can learn from digging in detail into the past. Kathy is great because she actually goes back and reads the original papers written by these folks, rather than just trusting the modern summaries.

• 5:47Speaker 04

  I love that about Kathy. And I love her sense of humor. So let's jump in.

• 5:55Daniel Whiteson?

  So it's my pleasure to welcome to the show Kathy Joseph. She's a very well-known YouTuber who has a channel about the history of physics. It's called Kathy Loves Physics. Check it out. She also was a high school physics teacher for many years and is the author of the very entertaining and illuminating book, The Lightning Tamers. Kathy, welcome to the show.

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me.

• 6:16Daniel Whiteson?

  Thanks very much for being on. Tell us how you ended up being a physics history YouTuber when you were originally a physics PhD student and a physics high school teacher. Connect those dots for us. What is Kathy's history?

• 6:29Speaker 03

  Ah, well, I've always been sort of interested in history, but much more from the historical fiction point of view. I like learning about how ordinary people lived in the past. So I always studied history by just looking into different people and enjoying their stories. And with a caveat that I know that everything I was getting was not necessarily true, which I think helped me in the future, because I've always been suspicious of everything I read as like, is that historically true or not? Because I did that. And then I ended up through my various paths in my career,

• 7:14Speaker 03

  helping someone edit a book on non-destructive testing, which is just as exciting as it sounds. It's an engineering book.

• 7:26Speaker 03

  Like, how to test if different devices are okay, or different items are okay? Like, is there a weakness in the line of train? And without breaking it up. And they had different sections on different ways to test things. And I ended up editing a section on x-rays. And I'm like, well, let's look into the history of x-rays a little bit to spice this up a little bit. And the history of x-rays is amazing. There's poetry, there's crazy, crazy things. And I started to just look into the history every once in a while, just for my own edification.

• 8:11Speaker 03

  And then I ended up being a high school physics teacher, which I loved.

• 8:15Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow, thank you for your service.

• 8:18Daniel Whiteson?

  That's really the front lines of education right there.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  It is the front lines of education, but it's also the place where you can make the most difference. Like, if you talk to anyone who did any accomplishment in life, nine times out of 10, they say they were inspired by a high school teacher.

• 8:37Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:38Daniel Whiteson?

  Absolutely. And shout out to all the high school science teachers out there who are inspiring the next generation of scientists who are going to create the next layer of history.

• 8:47Speaker 04

  Amen. How does writing pop science differ when you're writing pop historical science? Is it a different set of skills that you need to be writing about the history, or a different, like, set of research techniques? Or did you learn everything you needed when you were working on your physics PhD?

• 9:03Speaker 03

  Working on my physics PhD taught me nothing except that...

• 9:10Speaker 03

  Except that the way I was trying to work on it was not working for me. And the way I approach looking at the history is as a way to teach the physics. It's always a way to teach the physics and it's a mystery story. Every single one of them is a mystery story. Who did it and why?

• 9:35Daniel Whiteson?

  I love the way that you approach history. You make it so personal because science is just people, right? It's weird people having accidents and rivalries and writing grumpy letters back and forth. And I think a lot of people, when they think of the history of physics, they only take the sort of sanitized, summarized version in a textbook, like a straight line from not understanding to understanding. When really it's like a crazy zigzag that later people patched up and they removed a lot of the fun bits. So I was hoping that you would take us through some of the history of our understanding of electromagnetism, some of the messy discoveries and the fun stories. Where do you think is a fun place to jump in? Take us back to sort of like before we understood electricity at all. What were people doing to try to understand it? What were the experiments that were helping us figure it out?

• 10:21Speaker 03

  Well, one of the things that really surprised me was that in the 1700s, electricity wasn't really a science. It was an entertainment. And it was also a way to get ahead in life. You could be a good musician or you could be a scientist or you could be a poet, especially in France. The king who made Versailles, the Sun King, he was very into like using science as a way of entertainment and a way of showing that you were noble. If you were elite, you spoke poetry and you knew about science and you did crazy experiments.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  And there's all these amazing, amazing drawings from that time period. Like the cover of my book has this little drawout circle of this woman in this beautiful giant ball gown.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  Rubbing this sphere. And then there's a child hung up by strings off the air. And his feet is touching the ball. So the electricity flows through him to this little girl in another little cute elegant gown, standing on a wooden platform, having little electric pieces of paper or fluff or gold foil rise to her hand as she's electrified. And there's so many pictures. In fact, if you look really closely at the book, you can see the French letters from the words on the other side of the page. Because they were printed out in little books.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  And I went to this museum called the Spark Museum. And I got to hold an original book from 1749. That was tiny. It was like two inches long and one inch wide. It was tiny so that they could put them in their little pockets of their elegant gowns and what have you. Where so they could take it out and look at these incredibly intricate portraits that they put inside them.

• 12:33Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow, we should start making two inch versions of modern textbooks. That would be pretty hilarious.

• 12:37Speaker 04

  Well, it sounds like a little cheat sheet for like how to be interesting at a party. I need more pockets to hold those so that people will invite me places.

• 12:44Daniel Whiteson?

  Physics is definitely not the way to be interesting at a party.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  Oh, it could be depending on the party. There are some pretty boring parties. If you're trying to entertain with electricity at a time when we don't understand electricity well, are there also a lot of stories of people hurting themselves or the children they're stringing up by their feet?

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Yes, not as many as you would expect, considering how dangerous it was. But I think that's because the time was so dangerous. They don't have antibiotics. You could die a million ways from Sunday. And they sort of felt, and many of them said, I want to die from electricity. There was this German scientist named Matthias Boza, one of my favorite scientists of all time, because he was a performer, a grand performer. And he would, for example, electrify a pretty woman by having her stand on something and while someone rubbed that sphere and then give her a kiss.

• 13:46Speaker 03

  And he called it Venus electrificata. And then he wrote a bad poetry about it like, you know, I kissed Venus standing on the wax. My lips trembled, my teeth almost broke.

• 14:01Speaker 04

  It's a great kiss. And it was the idea that like, he wanted to create a spark so that they would both be like, ooh, fun.

• 14:08Speaker 03

  But it hurt.

• 14:11Speaker 03

  It wouldn't hurt with their hands, but it would sure hurt with your lips.

• 14:14Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 14:15Daniel Whiteson?

  Well, the history of flirting with physics is fascinating. But so physics is a way to like amaze and awe and entertain, or electricity is. At what point did people start to wonder like, can we understand this to do experiments to try to, you know, force the universe to reveal how it works? When did we really begin to understand it?

• 14:35Speaker 03

  Well, that kind of happened simultaneously. For example, there was this French scientist named Dufay. And he was the first person who made the sort of rules of electricity. He had this theory that if something was electrified and a neutral object came to it and stuck on it, the neutral object could absorb some of the electricity and then be repelled by it, which is what we think happens today. And he did an experiment like that. And he had two charged rods. And he's like, okay, if it repels from one, it should repel from the other. But it didn't.

• 15:19Speaker 03

  It was attracted to the other. And then it was repelled by that and attracted to the first and went bouncing back and forth between these two charged objects, one made out of glass and one made of wax. So he said, there's two kinds of electricity. Vitreous electricity or electricity that comes from glass and resinous electricity or resin based, wax based. So Charles Sistinay de Vey was a real inspiration for Boza doing his crazy experiments. So I found that happens all through the history of science. Someone makes a real breakthrough on our understanding.

• 16:03Speaker 03

  But then someone else makes it popular. Either by making a useful device or making a fun device or both. Like with x-rays, they mostly thought it was fun for a while.

• 16:17Speaker 04

  Oops.

• 16:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. They would go on traveling things and give x-rays for, you know, like a quarter just for fun.

• 16:26Daniel Whiteson?

  With shockingly high doses, right?

• 16:28Speaker 03

  At first, no, because they couldn't figure out how to make shockingly high doses. You had to stay there for a really long time because it just wouldn't work. It took a while to just figure out how to up the dose as well. But I'm sorry, I got back onto x-rays, but it's the true with all of it. It's not one at a time. And I think that is a problem with most history of science books is that they focus on this one part of technology or one discovery or whatever, and they're not in isolation. The theory happens at the same time as the developments in technology, same time as it affecting

• 17:09Speaker 03

  the culture, and they're all intertwined with each other and they're all influencing each other. And it's not linear, like you were saying before. It's not like this person makes this person. Sometimes you go backwards.

• 17:25Daniel Whiteson?

  Right.

• 17:25Speaker 03

  And one of our greatest discoveries was the discovery of the idea of electric fields. And that happened because a guy named Michael Faraday went, you know what? I've discovered so much, I should look in the history and see what it tells me.

• 17:42Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, so I want to hear all about the history of Michael Faraday and how that laid the groundwork for Maxwell to get maybe too much credit for Maxwell's equations. But first, we have to take a quick break.

• 18:01Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by Miguel.

• 18:19Speaker 05

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• 18:55Speaker 02

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• 19:05Speaker 06

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• 20:44Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, we're back and we're talking to historian Kathy Joseph of the YouTube channel Kathy Loves Physics about how the history of electromagnetism and the history of physics in general is a little bit messier and a lot less linear than you might have thought, at least than I thought. So tell us about Michael Faraday and his experiments and what he helped us understand and how he did it.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  Oh, Michael Faraday is my favorite scientist of all time.

• 21:09Speaker 04

  I think that's the second time you've said that, isn't it?

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Is it?

• 21:12Speaker 04

  I think that means that you just are full of enthusiasm and love for your topic. I thought your favorite was the one who did the electric smooches.

• 21:19Speaker 03

  Oh, shoot. No.

• 21:24Daniel Whiteson?

  It's okay. You can have a new favorite every 10 minutes. They're all wonderful.

• 21:28Speaker 03

  Bose is one of my favorites.

• 21:30Daniel Whiteson?

  Okay.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  Michael Faraday is clear in a way my favorite.

• 21:33Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. Why is that? Because he was a fan of the history as well?

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Partially.

• 21:40Speaker 03

  You asked me to talk about Michael Faraday, but I'm going to first start saying I didn't start off by thinking the history of science was that important. I started off by thinking the history of science was interesting to me. And I thought it might be a little bit helpful for helping other people understand science. But it's turned into...

• 22:03Speaker 03

  A deep belief that the science and technology doesn't come from the equations. It comes from how we got the equations. And no one has been more influential and more poetic than Michael Faraday. Michael Faraday was born in the slums of London to a mostly out of work and sick father. And he went to school for a week before his teacher told his big brother to get a switch to hit him with because he called his brother Robert instead of Robert. And the brother went to the mom and said, this is what I'm supposed to do.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  And the mom marched in there and took both kids out of school and homeschooled four kids. She had two daughters as well, who weren't allowed to go to school. And she knew no math and he never learned math. He had a terrible math phobia. They had no books.

• 23:06Daniel Whiteson?

  One of the greatest physicists of all time. You're telling me he had a math phobia?

• 23:10Speaker 03

  Terrible math phobia. He called it hieroglyphics.

• 23:16Speaker 03

  He never wrote an equation. He didn't really understand them.

• 23:20Daniel Whiteson?

  He never wrote an equation. How does Faraday do all of his physics and leave such an imprint on history of physics without writing an equation?

• 23:28Speaker 03

  It's amazing. Well, Maxwell actually read Faraday and said, this is mathematical. It's just not in mathematical terms. So to Maxwell, Faraday was mathematical. It just, you know, you can do math in language.

• 23:46Daniel Whiteson?

  Does that mean that Faraday's papers are in like sentences rather than in symbols? He's like writing descriptions of what he sees and describing relationships, but just not using like equals and numbers?

• 23:57Speaker 03

  Right. Not using equals and numbers and stuff like that. But also Faraday had this amazing knack of seeing sort of what lies underneath.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  Our world and developing it. He was a chemist and a physicist. So he had no education.

• 24:20Daniel Whiteson?

  Except for his mom.

• 24:21Speaker 03

  Except for his mom.

• 24:22Daniel Whiteson?

  Big props to Faraday's mom.

• 24:24Speaker 03

  Big props, who he loved. His relationship with his mom is so sweet. I'm getting ahead of myself. He was this poor kid. He always hanging out at a booksellers just to look at the books in their window. And the bookseller, this guy named Rebaugh, gave him a job as a delivery boy and then gave him a job as a bookbinder and let him read the books that were in the bookshelf. And there was a book there by a woman named Jane Marset called Conversations in Chemistry. There is this guy named Humphry Davy, who was a famous chemist, like the world's famous

• 25:04Speaker 03

  chemist, who is doing experiments with this giant battery to separate chemicals and discovered a whole bunch of different chemicals. This was 1800 about. His talks were the most popular thing in England. Like, they had to make the road one way to deal with traffic when he gave a talk.

• 25:26Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 25:27Speaker 03

  He has letters to his parents and brother about like, you know, I'm very excited about this talk. They're reselling my tickets at fifty pounds. And I'm like, oh, my God, that's what they pay people for a year of labor at the time. I mean, like.

• 25:42Speaker 04

  He's like Taylor Swift.

• 25:43Speaker 03

  He was a Taylor Swift. Poets would go to him for new language and like famous poets, Coolidge and Southby. And I don't know very much about poetry, but they would go to him. And he was very, very popular. And this woman went to his talk named James Marset. And she's like, I wish I knew some chemistry so I could understand this better. So she asked her husband to help her. And then she wrote this book, Conversations in Chemistry. And that's how Faraday learned chemistry.

• 26:16Speaker 04

  I didn't realize women were so important in Faraday's education.

• 26:20Speaker 03

  You know what? Women keep on coming up throughout everyone's story. And what I found so lovely about Faraday, lots of times when you go through the history of science, partially is a different time period. So you find people who.

• 26:40Speaker 03

  Would affect, you know, sexism and racism, classism and all this stuff. And they disappoint you sometimes. And sometimes people you don't expect turn out to be wonderful. But when you read their private letters, you get to know who they are as people. At their bad points, at their good points. And yes, I judge people. I'm a historian. That's how it works. And Faraday, I haven't read everything. He could disappoint me, but he was always, everything I've read. He was kind and he was supportive and he was lovely. I call him the original slam poet.

• 27:23Speaker 03

  Like slam poets do poetry without rhyming. And if you read his talks, he says stuff like, I'm no poet. But if you listen carefully, a poem will form in your mind.

• 27:39Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, wow, that is nice.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's great.

• 27:42Speaker 03

  I'm like, okay, I'm waving myself.

• 27:47Speaker 04

  Oh, the vapors.

• 27:48Speaker 03

  So the vapors. He loved physics as much as I love physics.

• 27:55Daniel Whiteson?

  And he actually did a bunch of experiments, right? He like played around in the laboratory and made these discoveries himself, right?

• 28:02Speaker 03

  Yes, his big claim to fame was when he was working on trying to make glass for the English government for lenses, which he said just gave him nervous headaches. So on July 4th, 1831, he quit, day of independence for him. And I remember that date, of course. And then he decided he's like, okay, electricity can make magnetism. He knew if you had a coil of wire and you put electricity in it, it acted like a bar magnet. And if you put it around the iron bar, it really acted like a strong bar magnet.

• 28:41Speaker 04

  And had he figured that out or somebody else knew that and he just knew it?

• 28:44Speaker 03

  Okay, so this guy named Orsted figured out that electricity would move a magnet. And Orsted thought there were spiraling currents. One spiraling current was moving the north, one was moving the south, all sorts of stuff. And Faraday's like, no, no, no, he didn't experiment. And he found current could move magnet in a circle and a magnet could move a current in a circle.

• 29:10Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  And they call that the first motor, but like unless you want a motor to stir mercury, it's not very useful. Like, okay, great. But what it did was it showed them that this was a very strange force. Every other force is a push or a pull. This force is like Gandalf's staff. You know, they put the staff down and then the force is going in circles around it. And this was different than how anyone thought of some physics laws at the time. And then in 1831, he found out that you could use magnetism to make electricity.

• 29:54Speaker 03

  Because he actually had two coils on an iron ring. He's like, maybe the iron wills move the electricity from one coil to the other. And what happened instead was when he put electricity in one coil, he got a burst of electricity in the other. And when he took it away, it got a burst of electricity in the other direction.

• 30:16Daniel Whiteson?

  And so did he think about this in terms of charges or fluids or fields? What do you think was going on in Faraday's head? How did he understand this?

• 30:24Speaker 03

  He understood it in terms of fields because he was the one to come up with the idea of fields.

• 30:31Daniel Whiteson?

  Because when I was taught the history of physics, usually Maxwell is given the credit for that. Maxwell is the one who thinks about things in terms of fields for the first time. But you're saying it's Faraday.

• 30:40Speaker 03

  It's 100% Faraday. And Maxwell even wrote his first paper called On Faraday's Lines of Force. In Maxwell's famous 1864 paper where he describes how light is an electromagnetic wave, he says, this is exactly like Faraday said in 1846.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  This is same in principle. In his book, he says, "The purpose of everything I did was to get you to appreciate and understand Faraday's work."

• 31:14Daniel Whiteson?

  Like you were saying before, he's like translating and popularizing.

• 31:17Speaker 03

  Right.

• 31:17Daniel Whiteson?

  But I want to ask you to tell us the story about Faraday and Wheatstone at the Royal Society, which seemed like a sort of turning point in the history of physics.

• 31:26Speaker 03

  Oh, this is great. This is great. So Faraday had created the idea of magnetic fields. He created the idea of electric fields. He found out that a magnetic field could change the polarization of light. So he found a connection between electricity, magnetism, and light. He found that everything had a magnetic effect. He coined the term magnetic field. Faraday did all this.

• 31:52Daniel Whiteson?

  This is all Faraday. Okay.

• 31:53Speaker 03

  All Faraday and created the idea of electric fields and dielectrics and every other term you use in chemistry, like cathode, anode, electrode, all came from Faraday.

• 32:04Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow, Faraday did everything, basically.

• 32:06Speaker 03

  He did everything.

• 32:08Daniel Whiteson?

  I'm sure he made his mom proud.

• 32:10Speaker 03

  He wrote his wife a letter that said, "Please stop talking to my mom about what I'm doing because I'm getting sick of her growing too much. I'm like, we don't need anymore."

• 32:21Speaker 04

  Oh, that's nice, though. It's nice that his mom gets to be proud after doing all of that hard work to train him.

• 32:26Speaker 03

  They were so adorable with each other. It's crazy.

• 32:29Daniel Whiteson?

  All right. So Faraday figures this all out, and then he's at the Royal Society.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  He's at the Royal Society. This is 1846, May of 1846, and he's supposed to introduce a talk by a guy named Charles Wheatstone. And Wheatstone had a well-known fear of public speaking. So he was supposed to go in and he just bailed. He walks out the back door right before the speech stopped. I've been told that they now lock the back door at the Royal Society because they still have talks there. And I'm like, no, you should make it extra easy to run out the back door because look at all the great things that happened because of this. But anyway, he bailed. Now, Faraday was the most organized

• 33:15Speaker 03

  person you've ever encountered in history. I put my money down on that. Like, he put a number next to every paragraph in his lab notebook. And he worked for, I think, thirty or so years.

• 33:31Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  And from number one to number, like, I don't know, twenty thousand or something. Like.

• 33:37Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow.

• 33:38Speaker 04

  Why? What would you do with that information?

• 33:41Speaker 03

  So he could refer to past paragraphs.

• 33:43Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, man. As I said, in paragraph seven thousand four hundred and forty-two.

• 33:47Speaker 03

  Right, right, right, right, right, right. Exactly. And that's what he'd do with his papers, too. All his papers on electricity were numbered, and then he would refer to, like, five different ones. And I'm like, this is hard for me to follow.

• 34:01Daniel Whiteson?

  I love that you've gone back and read all the original papers. That's awesome. Anyway, so he's at the Royal Society. Wheatstone walks out the back door.

• 34:08Speaker 03

  He's supposed to give an introduction, but now he has to talk for an hour, and he never was unprepared. He studied how to talk. He was always very, very well prepared, but he wasn't.

• 34:20Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  So he starts talking about the vague reflections of my mind. I think he called it something like that. And he said, okay, imagine you have a magnet and another magnet combined with their lines of magnetic force. Or you have an electric thing, an electric thing, and they're combined by their lines of electric force. You vibrate one. It's going to make a vibration in those lines of force. And then it'll vibrate the other one.

• 34:52Speaker 03

  He said, maybe, just maybe, that's what light is. He said, I'm trying to keep the vibrations and remove the ether.

• 35:02Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow. So Faraday, magnetism, Faraday has the idea of fields. Faraday figured out dipoles and dielectrics. Faraday even came up with the idea that light is a vibration of electromagnetic fields.

• 35:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:14Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 35:14Daniel Whiteson?

  And he only revealed it because he gave an impromptu talk at the Royal Society because Wheatstone ran out the back door?

• 35:21Speaker 03

  Exactly. And then afterwards, they asked him to write it up. It's like a three-page paper.

• 35:27Daniel Whiteson?

  Wow.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  It's thoughts on ray vibrations. It's very short, and a good half of it is, I might be wrong. Don't take me.

• 35:38Speaker 03

  Don't be upset with me. I'm just speaking out of my behind, basically. I have to fill up the time. Don't be mad at me. Well, the weird thing is, in 1837, when Faraday built the Faraday cage, which protected him from electric fields, and came up with the idea that non-metals affect the electric field, and came up with the idea of an electric field. This made everyone mad. Everyone hated it.

• 36:10Speaker 04

  Why?

• 36:11Speaker 03

  Well, two reasons. One is because he thought of... So imagine two magnets, and you're pushing the two norths together. You could imagine the magnetic field lines around them getting more and more compressed, and that's why they're repelling each other. And that's how we think of it, right? I mean, as physicists. Or we can think of it that way, as physicists. Well, they didn't think of it that way back then. They didn't think of it as compressing curved lines of force. They thought of it as repelling force and attraction force.

• 36:52Speaker 03

  And so to think of electric repulsion and attraction as combining and compressing these lines of force seemed just ludicrous to them, and seemed oppositional to the mathematical science that they had at the time. So there was lots of letters of like, "I really respect you, Mr. Faraday, Professor Faraday, whatever, and let me tell you the 12 reasons why you're wrong." My favorite was someone wrote in about all the reasons he thought he was wrong, and he numbered the paragraph. I'm like, yes!

• 37:33Speaker 04

  He's speaking Faraday's language.

• 37:34Speaker 03

  You're like, "This is showing my love for you. I follow you. I just don't believe this." And the other part is that Faraday thought that dielectrics, non-conductors, propelled the electric field forward instead of reduce the electric field.

• 37:52Daniel Whiteson?

  All right, so draw a dotted line for us between Faraday and Maxwell. Was Maxwell in the audience that day at the Royal Society? Did he read Faraday's papers? How does Maxwell then get credit for pulling together all of these ideas into what we now call Maxwell's Equations?

• 38:07Speaker 04

  I think that's a great topic for us to tackle after the break.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  Hey, it's Niall Rogers, host of Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series. I'm driving across the country, meeting some of today's most fascinating artists. We're exploring the stories before the moment that changed everything. This week, I'm joined by my friend, John Legend. So you're helping Will.i.am write hooks. What made "Ordinary People" become the one song from those sound checks you knew you had to make your own?

• 38:48Speaker 05

  I was just writing for the Black Eyed Peas. I wasn't expecting to write something for myself in that session, but I wrote the hook for "Ordinary People," and I recorded a demo, and I'm like, I would rather keep "Ordinary People" for myself. The station in Chicago, WCCI, they start playing it before we're promoting it. The song spoke for itself. It became the defining song for my first album. I knew it was special, but you never know how special it's going to be and how much impact it's going to have in people's lives. And you never believe that you're going to actually change people's lives with a song.

• 39:17Speaker 02

  Experience Before the Moment, a Lincoln original series on the iHeartRadio app, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 39:27Speaker 06

  I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of Smart Talks with IBM. I spoke with Dr. Laura Jayhai of Cleveland Clinic about how advanced computing is helping shorten the path from medical discovery to treatment.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  The moment that there is a compound that someone in a lab thinks it would be effective to treat a certain disease, it takes about 10 to 13 years from that moment to when that drug is on a shelf for a patient. A big part of that gap could be computationally solved. Better simulation of compounds, designing drug trials that are more efficient, that would finish faster. That was the motivation to bring computational tools and technology closer to biomedical researchers.

• 40:14Speaker 06

  Learn more about how Cleveland Clinic and IBM are using AI and quantum computing to revolutionize biomedical research at ibm.com/smarttalks.

• 40:27Speaker 04

  Sponsored by GSK, the makers of Extensura, dipyomocamab ULAA. If your asthma keeps interrupting, it may be time to try something else. Extensura is an ultra-long-acting prescription-maintenance treatment for severe asthma, eosinophilic type, ages 12 and older. It isn't for sudden breathing problems. Extensura is the first and only add-on treatment that can help deliver protection from asthma attacks with two doses a year. Just one dose every six months. That's a lot of time for everything in between. Serious allergic reactions can occur. Get help right away for swelling of face, mouth, tongue, or trouble breathing. Don't change or stop medicines, including steroids, unless told by your doctor. Report if you have a parasitic infection.

• 41:10Speaker 04

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• 41:35Speaker 04

  All right, and we're back.

• 41:36Daniel Whiteson?

  And we're talking to Kathy Joseph, famous YouTuber of Kathy Loves Physics fame, who's telling us all about the history of Maxwell's equations. So when we broke off, Faraday had revealed all the big insights about how electromagnetism works, and you were going to tell us about how Maxwell pulled this all together and somehow won the PR battle for history.

• 41:55Speaker 03

  He deserves it because Faraday had all these ideas, and they're amazing ideas. But in order to use it to predict other things, we need the math. And Maxwell added that secret sauce, the math.

• 42:15Speaker 03

  And also because of Maxwell, we have vector mathematics. But anyway, let me start with what Maxwell started. He didn't go to these meetings. He had never done electricity experiments before. And what happened was, as a young man, he was probably 21 or 22 years old. He wrote a letter to a mentor. And Maxwell had a funny way of putting things. He was allowed to study his own things. So he said, I'm entering the unholy state of bachelorhood.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  And I want to attack electricity. What should I do? Should I read Faraday? Or should I read Ampere and Poisot? And all these other people who are much more mathematical. Ampere and Faraday, by the way, were good pen pals. They met each other once, but they were good friends with each other. Even when they disagreed. And the person he wrote to, a guy named William Thompson, who eventually became Lord Kelvin, like the temperature, had actually inspired Faraday to do some experiments. And was, as he put it, full of Faraday fire. And he told Maxwell to start with Faraday. Faraday is the greatest.

• 43:32Speaker 03

  He was as big a Faraday fan as I am, I think. And Maxwell was like, well, aren't they in conflict with the other physicists? And this guy Thompson, he's like, no, no. They work well together. You just have to see it right. He writes it many times, like, Sir William Thompson inspired me to do this. To see how Faraday's view of reality worked with all these equations with these other views of reality. And meshed together.

• 44:07Speaker 04

  It's amazing to me how often science is actually a community effort. And it's easy to teach as though it's one name because that's easier to remember. And you don't want people to have to remember four names for every concept. But it truly seems like it is a community effort. Somebody puts you on a certain path. They help you understand it. They encourage you to keep doing it. And sorry, anyway, go ahead.

• 44:25Speaker 03

  No, it's always such a tangled weave. That's what makes it beautiful to me. It's not like this person did this thing on this date and then... That's boring, too. It's much more exciting, all these people interacting with each other. What inspires people? I mean, we teach physics without knowing how anyone is inspired. And in my mind, it's like, now I know 100 stories about how different people were inspired in different ways. It's not to be repetitive, inspiring.

• 44:58Daniel Whiteson?

  So what's Maxwell's reaction to reading Faraday? Maxwell's sort of a mathematical person and Faraday is more of a poet of physics. Does Maxwell like what he reads? Does it make sense to him? Does he struggle with it?

• 45:09Speaker 03

  He's immediately enthralled. He loves it. He writes this paper called On Faraday's Lines of Force. I'm a mathematical person. I don't have trouble with advanced math. It's just one of my skills. And I gotta tell you, Maxwell is hard to read for weird, weird reasons. Maxwell, it's not all mathematical. It's mostly words and with a little bit of math. But the math is confusingly written and Maxwell makes ridiculous amounts of mathematical mistakes. At first, when I saw it, I'm like, I must be wrong. This is Maxwell. And then I realized,

• 45:51Speaker 03

  no, every paper is 80 pages long and has 80 mistakes in it.

• 45:57Speaker 04

  Oh, no. It's good to know you can be famous and make tons of mistakes.

• 46:01Daniel Whiteson?

  Exactly.

• 46:03Speaker 03

  And it's actually inspiring. But yeah, Maxwell had this amazing mind to take these crazy ideas from Faraday, which no one had thought of things this way, and put it in math terms. And I have nothing but the utmost respect and love for Maxwell. And also, reading him can give you a stomach ache.

• 46:28Speaker 04

  So you said he made a lot of mistakes. Were these being pointed out at the time? Or did somebody eventually come through and smooth everything for him?

• 46:35Speaker 03

  So first, he published this on Faraday's Lines of Force. And I have to tell you this thing. He sent it to Faraday. And then he had a meeting with Faraday where he explained it in simple terms. I mean, like, I wish he had someone recording that. And Faraday said, he did a really good job. He wrote Maxwell and he said, I really think every mathematical scientist should do what you did. But of course, Maxwell didn't do it on paper. He only did it verbally with Faraday.

• 47:06Speaker 03

  But you know, you come up with your ideas, you still have to explain it to others. And Faraday made an impassioned plea that every mathematical scientist should put their ideas out there so that other people can decipher the hieroglyphics and do experiments on it, use it to develop it. So he did that before Faraday died, and I'm still sad about that, even though he died as an older man. And then Maxwell, who was thirty years younger than Faraday, I think, he read this article that people had done this experiment with an electric

• 47:48Speaker 03

  and magnetic component that was equal to the speed of light. And he was like, oh, I'm going to go back to on Faraday's lines of force. And this time he called it on physical lines of force. And write up the equations up to getting to an electromagnetic wave going at the speed of light in that material. And then he realized that that paper was full of mistakes and confusions and weird negative signs and, and he didn't develop the electromagnetic wave very well. So he wrote another paper in eighteen sixty-four, and this is his most

• 48:31Speaker 03

  famous paper, but that still had mistakes in it.

• 48:35Speaker 04

  Check your math, guys.

• 48:36Speaker 03

  Check your math.

• 48:37Daniel Whiteson?

  We're the reviewer number two here. Like, seriously, somebody's gonna be fixing this stuff up for him.

• 48:41Speaker 03

  Well, no one could have reviewed this thing. I say it's a paper, but it was really three or four papers, part one, part two, part three, part one, part two, part four. And each one is like twenty pages, thirty pages long, of really complicated math where Maxwell did weird things like if he had three directions for a field, like electric field, he wouldn't call it E X, E Y, E Z. He'd call it alpha, beta, gamma.

• 49:09Daniel Whiteson?

  So they're all just independent variables. Wow.

• 49:11Speaker 03

  Just all independent variables. And sometimes he'd only include one of those variables with the idea that we would know he meant all three.

• 49:21Daniel Whiteson?

  So when I'm teaching electromagnetism, I give them these beautiful short equations that are symmetric between electricity and magnetism, and we call them Maxwell's equations. But Maxwell doesn't sound like he wrote them down in that way. So how did we get from Maxwell's like individual components and four pies and sign mistakes to the equations that we all know and love today?

• 49:43Speaker 03

  Well, he sort of did.

• 49:46Speaker 03

  If you pick and choose from his three papers and his book, you can get Maxwell's equations aside from a stray four pi. Maxwell didn't like four pi in the electric field for a charge. So he added four pies everywhere else and he changed where he put these four pies.

• 50:08Daniel Whiteson?

  Sounds like a theorist, you know?

• 50:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I mean, I love Maxwell and also just like, ah, but anyway, so when he published these things, people tried to understand. There was various people, because everyone knew Maxwell was brilliant and they knew Faraday was brilliant and they were trying to get it. So a lot of people wrote a paper or two about this. But the person who really dived into it was a guy named Oliver Heaviside, who was working for his uncle named Charles Wheatstone, the same guy who chickened out on the talk.

• 50:44Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, my gosh, small community.

• 50:46Speaker 03

  I gotta say Victorian English Science Society was small. Anyway, Oliver Heaviside was working for his uncle. He had a high school education. He sees Maxwell's book, because Maxwell wrote a 500 page book in a library. He's like, okay, this is the most brilliant thing I've ever seen. I'm going to quit my job. I'm going to teach myself math. I'm going to teach myself physics. I'm going to teach myself. I mean, he knew about basic physics for his engineering job, but advanced physics. I'm going to teach myself advanced mathematics, like quaternions. I'm going to teach myself all of this so I can figure it out. Spent like nine years in his parents attic with the.

• 51:33Speaker 03

  Middle of the night, he only liked to work in the middle of the night supposedly. All night, every night.

• 51:37Daniel Whiteson?

  Really kook.

• 51:38Speaker 03

  And then he starts publishing an engineering magazine. And he publishes paper after paper after paper after paper after paper. And what made Oliver Heaviside easier was just simple things like Maxwell either used three letters or he used these weird swirly German letters that are really hard to distinguish in E from an F. And it's like, you look at these equations and you're like, wait, what is this equation saying? It looks like it's saying E, E, E over, like, what does this say?

• 52:16Daniel Whiteson?

  Oh, no.

• 52:17Speaker 03

  And Oliver Heaviside did stuff like using capital letters in Roman letters and making them bold. So you can read his stuff. It's a lot easier to read Oliver Heaviside. And he did other things. Maxwell had this idea of potentials and Heaviside hated the potentials. He called them evil.

• 52:42Speaker 03

  But by trying to get rid of it, he got very close to getting Maxwell's equations. That's the simplest way to put it. I gave a whole talk at U C Irvine with all the details about it, but like, the short version of it is he got close. And then after spending all that time studying it, all that time writing papers, he gets the owner of the magazine, the electrician, quit. And the new owner asked everyone, he said, I asked everyone who could possibly have wanted to read your paper, and I couldn't find a single person who read any of your papers.

• 53:22Daniel Whiteson?

  That's devastating. Wicked burn.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  I'm just imagining how Heaviside must have felt. He quit his job, spent 10 years on this without knowing if it's going to be any good. He had publications and a couple of major publications because it was much easier at that time to do that, even if you weren't in academia. But he was told that no one was interested, right? And then like months later, it must have seemed like, uh huh. He hears the greatest news ever. Out of Germany, a guy named Heinrich Hertz had done an experiment. He used something called a rump corff coil with these long sticks on it, antenna.

• 54:10Speaker 03

  And he made a vibrating electric system that vibrated slower than visible light. He had it emerge from one place and he received it in another place. And he found it moved at the speed of light. He discovered radio waves.

• 54:28Speaker 03

  And he said, the reason I did this was to validate the Maxwell Faraday equations. And in fact, his old boss had challenged him. There was a contest. You could get a hundred florin or a hundred gold, whatever. If you could experimentally validate Maxwell's equations. And Hertz said, this is too hard. I can't do it. And then years later, when he did it, he sent it to his boss, Hemmholz. And he said, I'm sorry to bother you, but this is something you asked about years before. And he wrote back a postcard.

• 55:14Speaker 03

  It just said, Bravo, we'll publish it Wednesday.

• 55:20Speaker 03

  And the whole world went, oh my God, Maxwell's laws. We have to figure out Maxwell. So they picked up Maxwell's book and they said, oh my God, we have to find someone to figure out Maxwell.

• 55:34Speaker 03

  Not us.

• 55:36Speaker 03

  And so Oliver Heaviside got a lot more popular because of that. Also, Hertz wrote one paper before his early death on the theory of Maxwell's equations. And one of the influences of that was that he said in it, I think that Oliver Heaviside is working on a similar thing. So people started to read Heaviside as well. But if you look at like, early Einstein papers, he calls them Maxwell-Hertz equations. Like you said, these equations have so many names on them, so many names that can go to them. Honestly, if you're going to give two names, I think it should be Faraday-Maxwell, or Maxwell-Faraday.

• 56:21Daniel Whiteson?

  Just cutting Heaviside out, huh?

• 56:23Speaker 03

  I think he was incredibly influential. There are some people who I've been very disappointed in, and their influence, but not Heaviside. What he managed to accomplish is astonishing. But he made the equations more readable. And if you can't make them more readable, you can't use them. But he didn't come up with the original idea, or the original equations, or make the final formation.

• 56:52Daniel Whiteson?

  But physics takes a community, right? It's not just a couple of people. Everybody plays their role. It's amazing how many people had to be in the right place at the right time, and be supported by or ditched by Charles Wheatstone in order for all this history to come together the way that it did.

• 57:06Speaker 03

  Or Faraday almost didn't get a job in science. It was just that Humphry Davy had an assistant who got in a fight with a bottle washer, who got in a fight with a delivery boy. And after the bottles got broken, Davy said, okay, Faraday, you can work for me. And so if there hadn't been that one altercation, I do not see how Faraday could have gotten a job in science. By then, he was working as a bookbinder, and he couldn't take days off, and he had no connections at all, except the one person who knew him was Davy, just a tiny bit.

• 57:50Speaker 03

  Because he'd asked him for a job and he'd showed him a book he'd written. And Davey's like, well, that's great, but I don't have an opening. So if that one fight hadn't happened, I don't see how Faraday would have gotten his job. I don't see how anyone else would have come up with the idea of electric fields. And if they hadn't come up with it later, it would have been too late for Maxwell. So would we have radio? Would we have equals mc squared? Would we have relativity? I mean, Faraday inspired the creation of the generator. Would we have generators? Probably, but it would have been later. I mean, I don't know where our life would have been if those two young boys hadn't gotten a fight.

• 58:35Daniel Whiteson?

  And you know, while the physics itself is mostly established like classical electromagnetism, it's fascinating to me that the history of it is still being written and being rewritten and being revised. That part is still very alive. Do you think the story of Maxwell's equations is going to change over the next 100 years? Are we going to start telling more of the story of Heaviside or more of the story of Faraday? Or do you think that's sort of like become set in stone in our culture?

• 59:00Speaker 03

  I think we have separated the history from the science. I think that most of the people who talk about the history do not know the science. I mean, maybe they took a couple of classes. And I'm just saying most. But when you teach the history to make an interesting story more than to teach the science, you miss out on the purpose of these people's lives. And when you teach the science without having any of the history, you miss out on what this stuff means and where we can go with it. And I did that.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  I mean, I taught for many, many years without the history because I didn't know it and I didn't know it was important. My hope is that. I can show by example that this is not a little side project of like, oh, if we have an extra five minutes, maybe I'll tell you a little bit about the history. But don't worry, it's not on the quiz, it's not on the test, you don't have to pay any attention. To be something like, this is where our ideas came from.

• 1:00:12Daniel Whiteson?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Speaker 03

  And for me, that is a never ending source of inspiration and development. Because the more you learn, the more other people can learn from it, the more it can grow and develop. So I'm hoping that it's not stationary at all, that it is growing and developing and expanding.

• 1:00:38Daniel Whiteson?

  And it's worth digging into the history because there's lots of past there that were dropped and not explored, and some of which could still be fruitful. You know, I read papers recently about the ether idea, which is coming back into fashion. So you never know what idea is going to be tossed aside and then resuscitated. So yeah, knowing the history is absolutely crucial.

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  There was also a scientist, and now his name is escaping me, and in the early 1900s, he decided to redo Faraday's last experiment, which did not work with modern equipment. And I use modern equipment because, you know, 40 years later, right? And then he won the Nobel Prize for that work.

• 1:01:17Speaker 04

  Whoa.

• 1:01:18Speaker 03

  And I'm not making this up. He said in his Nobel Prize speech, "I went to Faraday's work and I thought, this is an interesting experiment, not because I had anything negative to say about Faraday, just we had new equipment and I thought I would redo it." So yeah, there's gold in them hills.

• 1:01:37Speaker 04

  And that feels like a perfect note to end on. That's a good reason to look back to the past.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:01:45Daniel Whiteson?

  Thanks very much, Kathy, for coming on and telling us the true history of electromagnetism.

• 1:01:48Speaker 03

  Thanks for having me. This was lots of fun.

• 1:01:51Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  Daniel and Kelly's Extraordinary Universe is produced by iHeartRadio. We would love to hear from you.

• 1:02:04Daniel Whiteson?

  We really would. We want to know what questions you have about this extraordinary universe.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

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