Pod Insights Dan Snow's History Hit The Mongol Invasion of Europe About this episode In the 13th century, a force unlike any Europe had ever seen came thundering across the steppe. The Mongols had already carved out the largest land empire in history - but after conquering vast swathes of Asia, they turned their gaze west. Today, we explore why the Mongols began pushing into Europe and how successful their invasions really were.
For this, we’re joined by Marie Favereau, a historian specialising in the Mongol Empire and Islamic history, and author of ‘The Horde: How the Mongols Changed the World’.
Produced by James Hickmann and edited by Dougal Patmore.
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1:59 Dan Snow? Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. In the 13th century, a force unlike any other that Europe had ever seen came thundering from out of the steppe. The Mongols. They'd already carved out the largest land empire in history. They'd already reached the Sea of Japan. Now, they were heading west. Into the plains of Hungary and Poland, the Mongol armies swept with terrifying speed and ruthless efficiency. They didn't just defeat some of the finest troops in Eastern Europe, they utterly humiliated them.
2:43 Dan Snow? They left kings and entire kingdoms reeling in their wake. In this episode, we're going to explore why the Mongols began pushing into Europe, how successful their invasions really were, and what were the lasting repercussions they had for the continent. I'm very pleased they were joined again by Marie Favreau. She specializes in the history of the Mongol Empire and Islamic history. She's the author of the very brilliant The Horde: How the Mongols Changed the World. She talked to us from her base in Kyrgyzstan, where she researches all things Mongol. She doesn't just sit in the archives, she's out there on the steppe doing river crossings, long journeys on horseback, and using birds of prey.
3:27 Dan Snow? She's a legend. And here she is, telling us all about the Mongol invasion of Europe. Enjoy.
3:55 Dan Snow? Mary, so good to have you back on the podcast. Thanks for coming on.
3:58 Speaker 03 Thank you so much for inviting me again. I'm so excited.
4:02 Dan Snow? Well, I'm very excited because this is one of the great subjects of history and you are there on the ground researching it as we speak. Tell me about, well, the steppe world, the steppe world that you know, the steppe world that Genghis would have known, the Mongols, perhaps before the great Khan unified everything. What characterized lives of people on the steppe?
4:20 Speaker 03 Well, I mean, we have some information about 12th century nomads living in the steppe. So it's basically like Mongolia now and part of Central Asia, part of Kazakhstan and also Kyrgyzstan, where I'm sitting right now. And actually, in 12th century, life was not so bad. We know that people were living with herding and they had enough water. The weather was not that cold or that hot. And it was better than what it is today, we think. So people were strong. We should really think about nomads at that time as elite people, like people who are doing well, very well.
5:02 Speaker 03 Beyond that, of course, we need to think about people living with their horses. Horses were very important. I mean, they are still today, but at that time, men and horses would live together. They can even be buried together. So it's the connection between nature, animals, men and women, families was like just really special. So that's how I can define like 12th century nomadic steppe world.
5:31 Dan Snow? That's so interesting, Mary. So we think of nomadic people now on the fringes of something, being denied access to the glories of settled urban life. Are you saying they would have seen themselves as free, richer, they would have regarded themselves as lucky that they were able to traverse across the steppe and look down on city dwellers, settled agricultural communities?
5:50 Speaker 03 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you have to think that those people see themselves and they have the right to do it as the center of the world. They build up empires since the Skittian period, since the Hun's period. So at least 12, 3 centuries before Common Era, we have a lot of information on those peoples, how they were organized. So they have the memories of the empire, nomadic empires of the past. So for themselves. Like real rich, interesting life is nomadic life. Power is in the hands of nomads. That is very important because they see themselves at the centre. And then we're gonna talk about that.
6:32 Speaker 03 If they go out of the steppe, it's for a lot of reasons, but certainly not because they need to plunder cities or something. They are rich, they have gold, they have silver, they have copper, they have minerals, they have a lot of stuff. So steppe is rich also in terms of all those materials. So it's a different world from the one we imagine usually.
6:56 Dan Snow? Marie, you're selling me this life. I I wanna be a nomad. I don't know what I'm doing here in my stupid house. Okay, so we think of them as warriors. Is it the nature of being nomadic, of being in the saddle, of being able to live close to nature on the ground, close to food sources? Were they a mighty potential military force? If only they could be sort of unified and work together in big enough numbers?
7:17 Speaker 03 Well, that's a very good point. Yeah, you can see them as warriors. I mean, they were warriors because they have what warriors need at that time. They have horses, but also camels. So they can go fast. They have metallurgy, so they can build up weapons. They have the strongest weapons ever. They have iron swords. They also are excellent archmen and they can just practice on their horses. So they are excellent warriors, but their life is not dedicated to war. That's the important point because they are also very good at trade, at a lot of other things. So it's also family life. So, yeah, sure, if you look at Eurasia in 12th century,
8:02 Speaker 03 they are probably among the best warriors, but it doesn't mean that they live for war.
8:07 Dan Snow? The legend is that they were disunited, so that military potential was potential, until they were united, unified, brought together in large numbers by this. This figure Genghis Khan, we won't go too much into his early life and his extraordinary legend, we've done that before on this podcast, but tell me, it is true that he emerges and is able to unite these groups as never before, or is there precedent for this?
8:32 Speaker 03 Oh, that's a very important point. Actually, it's true that they were, they are fragmentation among those groups, so we can call them tribes or peoples, they like to call themselves peoples. But then the truth is, they have been united before, but under other names. You've heard of the Turks, it's a name we all know, right? The Turks are in Turkey today, but back then, they were in Mongolia. So they were the Hun, the Hunnu before, the Skittians also. So there were a lot of empires before the Mongols. The thing is, Genghis Khan built up something new, something bigger that we're gonna talk about. And he was able to actually sort of
9:15 Speaker 03 use this previous kind of legacy of empire, nomadic empires, to make it his own and to use the name Mongols as like a label for all those nomads who had also their own names, right? So yes, he's a unifier. He will build up some unifying state at the end of the 12th century, but this happened before. It's just under Genghis Khan, it's gonna be bigger than ever.
9:42 Dan Snow? And does he do that by, has he got a persuasive charismatic message? Is he just defeating other tribes, making them kneel to him? Is it marriage? What's the process?
9:51 Speaker 03 Good point. So of course he's a good warrior. Of course, he will act as a good like military leader, but it's not enough. You have to convince people. So he's also, even in his young age, very clever at building alliances, either with like political friends, but also he will build up a very strong couple with his wife birthday, which he married very young. And she's gonna help him to build up alliance and they will really together create a network of secured alliance with other nomadic leaders. Genghis, or we also in Mongolian calling Genghis, Genghis Khan, was Very clever at negotiating, you know.
10:36 Speaker 03 When you know you're not strong enough on the battlefield, you have to negotiate. And he's very good at that. So he's a very good diplomat. He's good at trade as well. So he will use everything to show he's the best. He's really an able leader for all the nomads of the great step.
10:55 Dan Snow? And is it an unwilling confederation? Are these disparate groups just like, fine, we've been bought off or he's outmaneuvered us diplomatically or he's conquered us? Or does he take decisive action to forge a new kind of confederation on the step? Does he try and erode tribal loyalties to build a successful loyalty to something different? Meritocracy, integration of different tribal units? Does he really try and forge something different?
11:23 Speaker 03 Yeah, that's a point. We know that Yutha's legacy I mentioned, but he's going to build up something new. So first of all, his own name. So actually, Genghis Khan or Genghis Khan is a title. It means probably something like universal Khan. Someone was like an emperor, like Caesar. But this title is unknown, unseen before. He invented it or someone suggested it to him and he picks it up. So he's using administration, like ideas of the past, but he's going to be able to produce something new. He's also very clever at integrating people. Because you have to think that at this period of time,
12:04 Speaker 03 in the Middle Ages anyway, peoples are more important than lands. If you have territories, but you have nobody just to pay tribute, to pay taxes or to grow stuff and do agriculture, it means nothing. So you really need to have more people. So he's going to be very good at integrating new peoples into the rank of the army, into the administration. And he's very open with that. So you don't need to speak Mongolian, to give an example. You don't need to be from the biggest lineage. If you are able, if you are clever, if you offer your service and you're loyal, then you can get into this first Mongol states. In that sense, he produced something new with new peoples.
12:49 Speaker 03 He's also, I think, very clever at understanding the world around him at a time when you don't have... Google Maps and media's information, right? How do you get information about the world around you? So he has fantastic spies and messengers that he can send everywhere. And he knows who is the powerful neighbors he has to fight with. Who is the interesting neighbors he might trade with and so on. So that's also part of his, I think, state building process.
13:21 Dan Snow? So he's a military genius like someone like Napoleon Bonaparte. But his legacy seems to endure because his empire holds together after he dies. So he's, this state building really does mean that his, his regime, his, what he's created will last for generations.
13:36 Speaker 03 Yeah, you're right. I mean, I think he has maybe some genius like Napoleon, but he has, I think, different views of the future. I mean, Mongols really consider past, present and future as all connected. It's part of their spirituality or religion, like they have to step religion. Where what you do is also for future generation. And I think in that sense, he was a really, really clever leader. And he thought about the future. And when he had four sons with his first wife, Bertie, I mentioned. And he planned for his four sons, territories, peoples, like states. He was really thinking about the future. This is why partially his work remain, you know?
14:20 Speaker 03 Also, Mongols as nomads, as previous nomadic empires are very, they adapt themselves to the world. So they are not rigid, it's not a rigid society. So they know that, okay, maybe today you're in power, but what about tomorrow? So you always have to be able to be flexible, to understand the world around you, to, if you grow, if you're like, you have more people, you have to extend, but it means you have to change your institutions. So it's very lively states that Genghis creates. And that is, successors are gonna support for generations.
14:58 Dan Snow? It's funny you say that. He sounds very pragmatic. He's happy to adapt. Is that something to do with that nomadic way of life? You know, that when the pasture runs out, you go somewhere else. If the weather's blocking the past, you go somewhere else. Who cares? Don't worry about it. Whereas us settled people are busy trying to stop our walls falling down and our house subsiding and keep our patch of soil fertile.
15:18 Speaker 03 I so agree with you. That's absolutely true. It's really come from this nomadic way of life. So you have to adapt. What's going to be the weather tomorrow? You know, what about if it's going to get cold or the wind? You have to move according to that, and it's not in your hands. So you have to adapt to external conditions, like weather conditions. But also you keep some identities. That's what I think is fascinating is like they remain themselves. There's something you have to keep as your own identity. Although you move, although you change, you remain Mongols, right? You keep your ancestors, you keep your house. You know, they live, so nomads live in a tent that we call yurt or ghar in Mongolian.
16:01 Speaker 03 It's around tents for usually six to eight people. It's your place, it's your house, it's a mobile home. You keep it with you and you move with it. And I think it's a real good symbol, this nomadic life. You have something that is you and your family. You move with it, so it's still you have your identity. But you move to other territories. You adapt to new weather conditions or new political conditions. So that's this combination between being yourself and adapting that also helped this incredible civilization to go on for centuries.
16:37 Dan Snow? Let's run through some of Genghis's extraordinary conquests. First of all, he charged into northern China.
16:44 Speaker 03 Yeah, well, there's two things. It's not that necessarily he, Genghis, wanted to attack China. I mean, northern China. Actually, China was at that time separated into, let's say, three big areas. Northern China, southern China. It's not, they were allied with Genghis's song. And central, western China, the Ten Guts. Genghis had some fight with them and integrated them first into his own empire. Then he attacked northern China. Northern China at that time. Was led by people that we can say are not really Chinese, they are kind of Mencu peoples. They had some sort of nomadic backgrounds.
17:29 Speaker 03 So for someone like Genghis and the Mongols, they are like people who come from the north. And for them, these people, either you submit them or if otherwise you negotiate, is they refuse and what happened, they didn't, they just refused to negotiate. But you have to fight. So it's the way they see the relations with northern China at that time. So that them, it took them time, it was hard. Because in northern China, Beijing, and you know, there's a lot of constructions like the wall. Although it's bit different from the wall, you the way you see it today, but there were a lot of settlements, big cities. And for Mongols, it was new to attack big cities.
18:10 Speaker 03 So they really had to sort of change their military forces and way of invasion in war. And it took them at least ten years to just get really into northern China. And then it will take them almost ten more years to really submit it and integrated northern China into their empire.
18:31 Dan Snow? As you say, that pragmatism comes through again because they turn themselves into brilliant practitioners of positional warfare, of siege warfare. They absorb new technologies, don't they, and welcome specialists or force specialists to work for them. The siege of Zhongdu, the siege of Beijing that you mentioned, that city is one of the most appalling and terrifying stories in medieval history.
18:51 Speaker 03 Absolutely, yes, yes, yes. And you know what, they attacked through the Tangguo, which I mentioned, you know, since central China, central western China. In Tangguo's kingdom, they had engineers who helped actually the Mongols to besiege Beijing. To like being able to do this siege warfare that they didn't master originally. So they integrate into their armies and all those engineers from the first subject they have, they integrate them. But it's true that it's a bloodshed in many ways. But the idea is not to kill everybody and to destroy everything. It's to really build up an empire and to get people to accept that the new power is a Mongol power.
19:36 Dan Snow? Yes, because there's a myth, isn't there, that the Mongols were this nihilistic force that just killed everything all the time. And that's a sort of Orientalist view, is it nowadays? I mean, Romans used spectacular violence when it suited them. The English did in Ireland. The Mongols presumably used violence to demonstrate the pointlessness of resisting them, but wanted rich cities to keep on providing tribute. They didn't want to destroy everything.
20:01 Speaker 03 Yeah, exactly. And that's why historians like me work a lot with my colleagues working on Roman Empire, for instance. And we really try to understand what's behind the conquests, what they want. And it's clear that they don't want to destroy. They want more taxpayers. They want more tribute. They want people to be able, very early on, to become their subjects. And once people become their subject, but they have to be protected because they become subjects, right? And they are not like enemies. So that's a very different vision than the one we used to have in the early 20th century or 19th centuries. And that's why historians now are producing very new narratives about Mongol Empire.
20:43 Dan Snow? You're listening to Dan Snow's History. We're talking about the Mongol invasion of Europe, more coming up.
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24:13 Dan Snow? There was then the big extraordinary attack to the West. Now, the name of this empire I have never successfully pronounced, so I'm leaving it to you, the expert, to talk about the empire that Genghis Khan topples next.
24:25 Speaker 03 Yeah, so in the West, you have two empires. One is called Karakhitai, okay? It's a bit smaller than the Chinese one, but it's like where I live now in Kyrgyzstan. It covered really the center of Asia, where you have cities like Bukhara and Samarkand, so rich Muslim cities. Here, I mean, Genghis did a very good job because he negotiated with the cities. The cities were mostly Muslims. The power, Karakhitai power, was Buddhist. Genghis said, "In my empire, you know, there's some sort of religious toleration. As long as you pay taxes and you're loyal to the power, you can practice your religion." And that was really well accepted,
25:08 Speaker 03 really well understood by the people. So many cities opened their doors. So they get into Central Asia. Then after you have this big empire, I think you mentioned, I mean, that's what you have in mind, the one we call Khorezem Shah. But that's the idea. Shah is a name we know because it's like the title of the king in Iran, the Shah of Iran. It means king. Now, the Mongols entered. So it's around 1218, 1220, they really get into Iran, actually. And then there, you have the biggest Muslim power at that time. We all heard of Abbasid in Baghdad, the caliph, right? But they are not so powerful. They represent a lot.
25:53 Speaker 03 The Abbasid dynasty is something that comes from the eighth centuries. It's very powerful in political terms, but militarily speaking, it's very weak. And the strongest Muslim power, the power in Iran at that time. And the Mongols attacked them because, I can tell you it's for one single, simple reason. The Shah in Iran refused to trade with the Mongols. He said, "No trade. I cut the road. I don't want your caravan. I don't want your gold. I don't want your merchants." And they killed even the Mongol merchants. And that's how the war started with the Shah in around 1218.
26:38 Speaker 03 And it was a very tough war, a very bloody war, as we heard. But the Mongols at that time were good at attacking cities. They had the experience of China. They really well prepared their campaign. And they get into Iran, up to Baghdad, actually, up to the Middle East in two years. So that's just really impressive in military terms.
27:02 Dan Snow? It really is one of the most impressive campaigns in history, isn't it? And you get the impression by this stage that the Mongols are so good at this. They move incredibly fast. Just explain to us how they move so fast. They move faster, don't they, than German armored spearheads during the Second World War? How do they manage that speed?
27:19 Speaker 03 They prepare a lot. That's the thing. It's not that they just really think about their plan. They have also scout troops they send ahead. So they need to know the terrain before, they need to know where they go. Mongols are very, also are special because, you know what? They fight, so two things are special with the Mongols. First, they fight during wintertime. Winter times is not a usual time for war. Everywhere in the world at that moment. In Middle Ages, you fight during spring or summer, not winter. So this is something that people are not expecting at that time. Like, people arriving suddenly during winter. So they are good at that. Also, Mongols are very good because they don't use mercenaries. They have their own troops.
28:04 Speaker 03 But they also move with their families. I said they are nomads, you remember? And they use their tents, the yurts, the round tents, right? With the family and the herds and the animals. So they are self-sufficient. So the Mongol army is part of the Mongol people themselves. The families go to the battlefield, not up to the battlefield. Because women and kids usually just stay away of the battlefield. But they are not far away. So it means that the warriors, they have food. They have also comports. They have their home, not so far. This is super special. This is something you cannot find with any other armies in the world at that time. The whole families.
28:47 Speaker 03 And also, because they are nomads, and I understand they have animals, they have herds, they have horses, camels. But they also have goats, sheeps. They have to respect the animal life. So it means they don't fight all the time. And they are very good at balancing moment of fighting and moment of calm rest, relaxing, political discussions, diplomacy and so on. So it's a very specific way of leading a war. And finally, these Mongol people, they are not so numerous. So I'm happy you don't ask me how many they are at that time because it's very hard to answer. But several thousands.
29:31 Speaker 03 I mean, maybe up to, at that time, in Central Asia and Iran, the Mongols were, let's say, 100,000. But we're not sure, right? But few, very few people, but very connected, very loyal to their power. There's a lot of solidarity among them. And in front of them, there are people who are fragmented, Muslim are fragmented. Christians, we're gonna talk about them, are very fragmented. They use mercenaries. Mercenaries, you don't pay them, they go away. Mongols are different, you know, they work differently. So I think that's also why they advanced so well and so quickly. And this is a great advantage for them.
30:10 Dan Snow? And they go even further in 1223, you see not Genghis himself, but two of his best generals. They're pushing into what we'd now sort of call, well, the Caucasus, would you say? And meeting the Rus, who would be fair-skinned European people. So they're reaching Europe at this stage.
30:27 Speaker 03 Yeah, and that's something that probably was not planned or not expected. So they won Central Asia and Iran. They arrived in what is Iraq today, and they are in thousand Caucasus, Azerbaijan, basically. But then the discussion goes on. They have nothing against the Rus. We call them the Rus at that time, you know, because it's like Russian principalities. It's very pragmatic state. So they have nothing against them. Problem is the Russian or Rus princes help their enemies, other nomads. We call them Kipchak. We know them under this name in the sources. These Kipchak guys are the enemies of the Mongols, are the nomads, right? And they are close to the Russians. They are their allies.
31:12 Speaker 03 The Mongols wrote to the Russian Rus princes and they say, look, you protecting our enemies. Just go away and it's okay with us. But if you protect them, then it's war, then you become our enemies as well. Of course, the Rus decided to, not all of them, but most of them decided to fight the Mongols. And that's when happened the first big battle between Mongol armies and Rus slash nomadic Western nomads in 1223 in Calca, we call it the Calca River. So it's like in Ukraine now, actually. And they met there and the Mongol just destroyed them like completely.
31:52 Speaker 03 They were really very efficient, very dedicated to their goal and they showed their forces. Genghis was not there. At that time, he remained in Central Asia. And as you said, it's the biggest and most seasoned generals attacked. So we called them Jibay and Subuday. And to these two guys, we know well them well in the sources. And they just destroyed the Russians armies. And more of that, actually, they figured out there's a lot to gain in those territories. Which Mongol didn't expect or didn't, we're not super interested in in the beginning. When they came back to Jingis, they said, we have to go back there because they are rich lands.
32:37 Speaker 03 It's interesting and we have to finish the work. This battle, we thought, OK, we are the winner one time, but we need to integrate them into our empire. So that's a beginning of a longer story.
32:49 Dan Snow? Then they wouldn't be the last people to cast their eye across. Donetsk can think it was full of valuables worth looting. OK, so they've got as far as Eastern Ukraine. There's then a bit of a pause, isn't there? But then that push towards Europe restarts in the 12, mid 1230s, would you say? How does that play out in the mid 1230s?
33:07 Speaker 03 OK, mid 1230s, Jingis already passed away. And his successor, his third son, Subuday, and he planned to continue his father's work. The Mongol decides collectively, like, of course, you have the king Khan, Khan. But it's also they organize assembly and they really decide together. They decide to go on, as I said, because it's worthwhile and they want to be certain that on their frontier, on their western frontier, they won't have enemies anymore. So they attacked again in the mid 1230s. And the idea was not just to conquer Europe. I mean, for them, Europe doesn't mean anything in a way. I mean, also because, as you know, it's fragmentary kingdoms.
33:51 Speaker 03 What they want is to get into the Russian principalities. They think that this area is a troubled area that they need to sort of pacify.
34:01 Dan Snow? When do you start hearing the Mongols mentioned in the European sources, in the European archive? What stage do they start going, hang on, we've got a big problem here?
34:09 Speaker 03 At that time in Europe, actually, the main enemies and the main topic was crusade. The idea was really to organize a new crusade, get into Middle East. And there was this fight since two centuries between the Christians and Muslims, to put it very simply, in the area. But then, when the Mongols came, actually, the first Christian kingdom who heard about the Mongols, Georgian kingdom. And there you have a queen, Rusudan. Her name is Rusudan. She's a very famous Georgian queen. And she informed the Pope, and she tried to inform all the Christian kingdoms that the Mongols are very dangerous enemies,
34:55 Speaker 03 that they are not Christians, and that they are much more dangerous than the Muslims. And that if there's a crusade, the crusade should be oriented against Mongols, not against Muslim states in Middle East. And Europe, people were puzzled. They didn't know what to think. First of all, they had not so much information about the world beyond Middle East. Like, what's in Central Asia? They had just basic ideas. So they tried to get more information about Mongols. Also, they knew, and that was true, that there were some Christians in Central Asia, even up to what is China today. And that's true.
35:37 Speaker 03 Those Christians, we call them Nestorian Christians, Eastern Christians. And among Mongol armies, even around Genghis Khan, there were Christian men and women. So although it's not Orthodox or Catholic Christians, it's Nestorian Christians, they were this Christian presence. So that's puzzled the Europe. Because they thought, are those people our potential allies? Or should we consider them as barbarians and enemies, just like the Muslims? Basically, we have, we see two different camps. Some of the European kings, a famous one is Frederick II,
36:20 Speaker 03 really thought, okay, those people are our enemies. We have to fight them. But others, around the Pope... Especially missionary orders like Franciscan and Dominican orders. So now maybe those people are not our enemies and maybe we should work with them for tomorrow's world in a way. So when we see the sources are really dual. Like in a way, we have very negative description of Mongols, like a variance crazy people coming from hell, Tartar, as they say. So people from hell, you know, the river of hell is called Tartar River. And others say, no, those might have been like special Christians and we need to work with them. So we have really two castes at that time in Europe.
37:08 Dan Snow? There's more Mongols invading Europe coming up after this.
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38:45 Dan Snow? Okay, so let's come back to that extraordinary year of 1241. You've mentioned that the Mongols are going to launch into, well, we can attack King Bella in Hungary. They also, is it just on the way or just a bit of a side hustle? They absolutely humiliate, they just rinse the forces of Poland as well.
39:04 Speaker 03 Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the Mongols, they attacked at the same time, different armies from Poland, from Hungary, from also other parts of what is Germany today. They are very good at attacking different armies at the same time. They coordinate very well. And in front of them, there are people who are not really, really strong allied, so they humiliated them. You see armies, which are very numerous armies, but completely overwhelmed by Mongol, also Mongol military tactics, the way they tease the enemy, the way they pretend to withdraw while actually they just hide and attack again.
39:49 Speaker 03 They don't know how to fight them. They don't know how to fight the Mongols. They are completely lost. As they don't know Mongols, they also don't know exactly how to, I cannot put that, you know, with my colleagues in anthropology, we work on violence. Perception of violence and exertion of violence is very different culturally. So they don't understand the Mongol violence. They think it's a different type of violence. It doesn't mean they are more violent than the Crusaders, for instance, at the same time, but they are differently violent. And this is super stressful for these armies, you know? They are really worried. And also, Mongols are good at, they are hunters.
40:31 Speaker 03 So they consider the enemies are maybe sometimes like animals they would hunt. So they know how to split, like you have a big group. In front of you and they know how to split the groups. So they separate people from each other. They know how to create panics among the enemies. And they use all this. And they have to do it because Mongols are not very numerous, as I said. They are outnumbered in fact. So they have to use tricks, you know?
40:59 Dan Snow? That's what makes it so extraordinary. So you imagine at the Battle of Leignitz, when they defeat these German and Polish troops, heavily armed knights, the Mongols seem to withdraw and all these knights charge after them and spread themselves out and then they're just absolutely hunted down in individual groups. For people familiar with the Battle of Hastings, some of those stories about the retreats at the Battle of Hastings that Duke William of Normandy does there as well, that same sort of thing. But clearly unbelievably well-drilled, well-organized troops. They fight these two battles in the same month against the Poles and the Germans and then against the Hungarians. I mean, it's got to be one of the most remarkable months in European history, April 12, 41, and they just crush these two massive European armies.
41:43 Speaker 03 Yes, you're right. But then what you see also in sources that from European side, people are just disagree among themselves. Who is chief? Who decided? And it's exactly the same problem you see with Crusade. It's like there's no clear hierarchy. You don't know who's in charge, who's more powerful in terms of even prestige, you know? On Mongol side, it's very clear. It's a two-man organisation. So you really know who's the general is in charge with 10,000 warriors. And then there's someone in charge with 1,000 warriors and one in charge with 100 and one in charge with 10. And they are super respectful with, you know, hierarchy.
42:27 Speaker 03 And that's what you need, you know, on the battlefield. So I think it's a very deeper way of fighting also. So that's a climax. But it's interesting because of course it remained like some sort of thematic moment for the European leaders, but some of them already thought. Well, we have to negotiate with the Mongols. So already you have this idea that not everybody want to fight them. I think it appears clearly that Mongols are not there to destroy everything. They don't want to do Tabula Raza, you know. They don't want to destroy cities or plunder everything. They have something else in mind. So people think it's good to negotiate. Also, there's another good strategies.
43:11 Speaker 03 And I have to say it's not coming from European leaders. It comes from the people, the poor people who have, you know, in Hungary and other places. They have to fight. It's very hard for them. They are scared. They just hide. And this is very clever because what happened is at some point Mongols want, as I said, they want taxpayers. They want an empire. They want people to pay tribute and there's nobody anymore. And they panic a little bit and they start asking people in Hungary and Poland, please come back to your villages. Please come back to your farms. We're gonna treat you well. We're gonna give you good statues. But people are not, you know, they of course are not stupid and they hide in the forest and they wait.
43:52 Speaker 03 And so it's also one of the reasons why the mobile at some point decided to leave the area because they cannot sustain themselves there and they cannot really transform those people into subjects because people don't want to. They just refuse, you know, to be the subject of the Mongols.
44:09 Dan Snow? Interesting. But after these crushing victories, they get to the Mediterranean coast. They get to Croatia. They see the Mediterranean.
44:17 Speaker 03 They do, but then they go there because they are still after this king Bela the Force. So the Hungarian king run away and the Mongols are after him. And Mongol idea is like you would have really to negotiate with leaders. Either you kill them because they don't want to negotiate. And that's what happened with Abbasid Khalif in 1258. Or they agree to negotiate. It happened with Armenian leaders who say, okay, fine, we're gonna find some common ground. And that's okay. But for them, the leader, the king, is the key person. So that's why they go after him. But they won't have him. I mean, it's interesting because it's a failure from Mongol side.
45:00 Speaker 03 They would never capture this famous Bela the Fourth, you know. They go to Croatia, they go behind him and they cannot catch him.
45:08 Dan Snow? So in terms of the Mongol presence in Europe, obviously, Europe's occasionally slightly tricky to define. Its edges are not that clear. But you end up with a long-lasting Mongol empire that doesn't include Poland and Hungary, but it does include what we might call today, or take me through it, the Caucasus, Russia and chunks of Ukraine and Belarus. How big is that empire for over the next couple hundred years?
45:33 Speaker 03 Well, yeah, part of the Mongols decided to stay in the area what is South and Russia today. We call it Sweet Historian, but it comes from old sources. Golden Horde, Horde is really a Mongol, Turk Mongol word, and Golden means imperial. And some of Mongol royal families, so actually from the eldest son of Genghis Khan, really wanted this area because it's excellent for nomadic life. You have a very excellent grasslands and it's also close to Europe. So trade potential was clear already for the Mongols there. So they build up this sort of state within the states, as we can say, this Golden Horde.
46:16 Speaker 03 And it's going to remain very strong during three centuries, up to the, almost up to the 16th century, actually. It's interesting because indeed they include the Russian principality. But early 14th centuries, you already see the differences between the northern parts, which would be Russia today, northern principality, and the south with this basically great part of Ukraine today. Kiev, Crimea, this whole area. It was part of the Golden Horde, so it was part of the Mongol Empire. It was a very important part, but it was seen as culturally different from the northern principality, from Novgorod, from Vladimir, from Moscow,
46:59 Speaker 03 what's going to be Moscow principality afterwards. And you see that taking shape slowly in the end of 13 and during a whole 14th century under the Mongols. Mongols considered them as their subjects. They don't attack them. They don't have bad relationship with the Slavic, to use a very general terms. Subject, they have rather good relationship with distance, you know, nomadic people that don't live in cities, settlers that live in cities and villages. And sometimes they go and visit the nomads when they need for political reasons or for trade. So they have a lot of exchange, but they don't live together.
47:39 Dan Snow? How interesting, so that you go and find the tented nomads and pay your dues to them. But we have accounts, don't we, from the 14th century of Mongol raiding parties riding as far as Germany and appearing in places like Prussia. It just jars with our traditional sense of European history, I think. It's astonishing how powerful this empire was for a long time.
48:00 Speaker 03 Yeah, but we had this negative view of Mongol that was developed up to 16th century, in fact, in Russian context. And after that, in imperial context, because nomads are like people you cannot control. So we didn't like them in those colonial empires in the world in 30th, 20th century, 19th century. But back in 13th, 14th century, the relationship on the like Western frontier was not so bad. Of course, there were moment of fight and raids, but usually it's because they backed up some rulers. So as they consider the Russian rule, sovereigns are the rulers.
48:40 Speaker 03 If a Russian prince would ask Mongol to help, Mongol would might decide to help. But it's an internal fight, you know, it's not that like Mongol on one side against Slavic people on the other side. It's like their subject have fight and troubles. Mongol are like a policeman, you know, sort of at some point say, okay, let's settle down the issues. What we want is to be paid on time and respect for our han, emperor. So I think for today, what is fascinating, like you see this state empire, but this is state, right? Where there's a combination of nomad with this very specific economic way of life and
49:24 Speaker 03 settlers, cities and villages and different religions as well. And they maintain some kind of peaceful relationship. And that's super special for Middle Ages or early modern period, even worse, you know, where you see fighting all over the place because of religious ideas and so on. So Mongols maintain some sort of not so bad, I would say, relationship among their subjects. And that's interesting to study.
49:53 Dan Snow? Yeah, different kind of imperial power. Can I end by asking you, what do you think the effect on Europe, not just those parts of Eastern Europe that were sort of occupied for generations, but on the rest of Europe? What was the effect on Europe of these Mongol invasions and then having Mongol power so close?
50:10 Speaker 03 Of course, we cannot jump from 13th, 14th century to nowadays. There's nothing in between, right? But I think Mongols just sort of show that the world could be more multi-religious or multiple whatever than people expected. Like, for instance, if you look at the Kingdom of France, we knew already there are Muslim communities and Jewish communities and we have all the Christians, right? But now we see that it can be even more complicated than that. And then they also see that the trade can go on beyond Middle East and we can do trade with Central Asia and Far East and China. So they open up Europe to something else.
50:54 Speaker 03 They created some expectations, for sure. People like Christopher Columbus, they was inspired by people like Marco Polo and people of the 13th, 14th centuries, which tried business far, far away and discovered crazy products and just so many different peoples that they'd never expected before. So they show a different world to the Europeans, I would say. And they also show that people can be mixed more than was seen or expected before, I guess. And also, very important, Mongols, so during their conquest already, you know what? They do maps. They want to map their empire. They want to understand territories and they want it on paper or on silk.
51:39 Speaker 03 So it can be painted on silk, you know, or on leather, but they want... To understand the world. And during Mongol period, there's a huge progress in world knowledge, like geography. So for European, after the Mongol, I would say the impacts, for me, biggest impact, like they understand better where they sit in the world, what is around them. And beyond religious belief, beyond Greek Ptolemaean geography, where you see monsters everywhere, they have a much clearer knowledge of distance, geography, roads, merchandise, they can negotiate and stuff like that. So they completely changed perception of the world. I would say that's the biggest impact in my sense.
52:23 Dan Snow? Well, it's hard to think of a bigger impact. Marie, thank you so much for coming on. One day, I'm going to come out to Central Asia with you and film as you gallop around and learn about the Mongols, getting your hands on and taking research into all sorts of fascinating different places. Thanks for coming on the podcast.
52:39 Speaker 03 Thank you so much for having me and welcome anytime.
52:44 Dan Snow? Thank you so much to you for listening to this episode of Dan Snow's History It. We could not make this podcast without you. That's actually true. So make sure, if you want to keep it going, that is, to hit follow in your podcast player right now, you'll get new episodes dropped into your podcast library automatically by the power of tech. You can listen anywhere you get your pods, Apple, Spotify, even BBC Sounds. Imagine a world, just imagine, where you never miss an episode of this podcast. I mean, it's there, the technology makes that possible. That could be your reality right now if you hit follow. See you next time.
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