Pod Insights Dan Snow's History Hit The Soviet Marshal Georgy Zhukov About this episode Marshal Georgy Zhukov was undoubtedly one of the Second World War's most formidable figures. Rising from humble peasant origins, Zhukov became the archetype of the Soviet warrior. He commanded vast armies of millions in some of the biggest, bloodiest and most pivotal battles not just of the Second World War but, in all human history. He was celebrated as the saviour of Moscow and the commander who captured the capital of the Third Reich, and is believed by many to be one of history’s greatest military leaders. But his immense popularity and success may also have sown the seeds of his political vulnerability at home in the paranoid Soviet system.
In this episode of Dan Snow's History Hit, part five of The Commanders series, we go beyond the legend to explore the man behind the myth. What made Zhukov the leader he became? How did he not only survive the tumultuous world of Soviet politics but thrive? And, does he truly deserve his towering reputation or were his victories at the expense of the men who served under him?
Our guide to explore Zhukov's life is the renowned historian Geoffrey Roberts. He is an emeritus professor of modern history at University College Cork and a leading expert on Soviet military history. He is also the author of Stalin's general: the life of Georgy Zhukov, so there is no one better to unpack the life, decisions, and legacy of the man who helped shape the outcome of the Second World War, and examine the fine line between glory and danger in Stalin’s Soviet Union.
If you would like to read more of Geoffrey's work, his latest book is Wartime Letters – Kathleen Harriman https://geoffreyroberts.net/book/wartime-letters-kathleen-harriman/
Produced and edited by Dougal Patmore.
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Transcript 11,778 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:57 Dan Snow? Moscow, juin 1945. 40.000 soviets soldats parádejíme po Redovým štátu. Přestože je rána, jejich hlavy jsou vysoké, jejich šířky jsou vysoké, jejich uniformy jsou čisté a krizné, jejich šáty jsou pohřešené. Metal na jejich rifách je zatřesen do vysokého šířky.
2:22 Dan Snow? Přežívají v pohodě vítězství. Je to okamžik, kdy se podívají na jejich historické úspěchy v případě příliš obrovského bolesti, která se způsobila sovětské unii během druhé světové války. Zatímco jim představili kámen a chaos 1941 a 1942. Přežili drahé vítězství, které způsobily zeměstské země. Ale sovětská unia je vítězna a teď jedna z největších států na světě.
2:59 Dan Snow? Na hlavě tohoto mocného pokazení vojenského mocnosti se pohybuje muž s bílým čaržem. Hůr je testován, skityčný, těžký, ale jeho křížník způsobuje příliš příznivý pohyb. Jeho domnívání je jisté, je bolestivé. Sedí v sobě v sobě, když se pokračuje po masových řádách sovětských vojenských trupů. Když parádejí přes Leninovu morselium, bánačky se vyskytují a je zde zjevný zvuk tisíce mužů, které vystavují mocný hurá.
3:35 Dan Snow? Přes toto plodloho bojům se pohybuje bánačka, flagy jejich fascistických nepřátel. Oficiální zpráva je, že je tato bánačka přenášena na velkou párku Leninové morselium, projevováný symbolem vítězství. Ale podle očekávání, jsou vlastně přenášena na západě muže s bílým čaržem, zvědavého jeho klíčové role jako architekt sovětského úspěchu. Tohle je jeho okamžik, když přežívají v zásluhě jeho mužů.
4:09 Dan Snow? On top of Lenin's mausoleum, dignitaries are gathered to watch the parade. Generals and diplomats from around the world, high-ranking Politburo members. At their centre stands Joseph Stalin. He's the unquestioned leader of a victorious nation, arguably the mightiest military power on the planet. Something seems to be distracting him. He's no longer watching the massed ranks of his men streaming past. Instead, his eyes are locked on to the man riding the white horse. He sees the self-assured control of its rider, the reverence with which the men view him, and a cloud of poisonous suspicion begins to fill his thoughts.
4:54 Dan Snow? The man riding the white charger is Georgi Konstantinovich Zhukov, marshal of the Soviet Union, Stalin's favourite general until now, the saviour of Moscow in 1941, architect of the transformation in and around Stalingrad in 42 and 43, the man who led Soviet armies from defeat to victory in campaigns that would crush Hitler's forces and ultimately capture the very capital of the Third Reich, Berlin, in 1945. Zhukov was the archetypal Soviet warrior. From humble origins, he'd risen through the ranks to become one of the mightiest warlords of the Second World War, with millions of men at his command.
5:37 Dan Snow? He's considered by some to be one of the greatest military leaders of all time, and perhaps it was just that, his popularity, his reputation, his success, that would lead to his downfall, as insecure Soviet leaders felt the threat he posed to their control. You're listening to Dan Snow's History. This is episode five in our commanders series. We're digging in for the lives and decisions of five legendary World War II commanders. We're going to cut through the myth, we're going to examine what shaped them, what shaped their styles of command. In this episode, we're going to be joined by historian Geoffrey Roberts, Samaritan Professor of History at University College Cork. He is an expert on Russian, Soviet foreign and military policy. Stalin and the Second World War, so we've come to the right place.
6:21 Dan Snow? He's even written a biography, it's today's subject, called Stalin's General: The Life of Georgy Zhukov. He is the perfect person to help us determine whether Marshal Zhukov truly deserves his reputation as one of the great commanders of the Second World War.
6:44 Dan Snow? In December 1896, around 60 miles east of Moscow, in the town of Strelkovka, Zhukov was born. His origins were humble. Indeed, his family were peasants. His father was a cobbler, his mother a labourer.
7:01 Speaker 05 Zhukov came from a peasant background. At the age of 12, he was apprenticed as a farrier. He was very fortunate that when he was a child, this was a time when primary education was being introduced into the Russian countryside, yeah? So he had an elementary education, so he had an educational foundation for his later successors. And of course, he received more education as part of his service in the armed forces. By the time the outbreak of the First World War in 1914, he's finished his apprenticeship and he has a couple of apprentices of his own. Now, interesting point here is that when war breaks out, Zhukov is not among those who volunteers for military service. He waits until he's conscripted.
7:43 Speaker 05 So he's conscripted into the Tsarist Army in 1915. And because he is a skilled worker and because he also has a certain level of education, he gets posted to a cavalry regiment, yeah? So he's part of the elite of the Tsarist Army during the First World War.
7:59 Dan Snow? Zhukov may have joined a fashionable unit where the officers were aristocrats, princes of the blood, the sort who moved in and around royal circles. But the troopers, the guys who did the grunt work, you'll be surprised alone, people like Zhukov were cut from a different cloth. They were still very much peasants. But it meant that people like him got a glimpse into another world entirely. With war, some comes opportunity. And Zhukov began to show his qualities as a soldier and a leader. But unlike many of the commanders in this series, the First World War was only an initial stepping stone for Zhukov. Instead, it was what followed. It was the Russian Civil War that really forged Zhukov into commander that we recognise today.
8:44 Speaker 05 He gets promoted. He is an uncommissioned officer and he has quite a good service record. He sees quite a lot of action. He's wounded a couple of times. He's decorated for bravery. But then what happens is that come the 1917 revolution in Russia, the Tsarist army disintegrates in large part, including Zhukov's unit at that time. So then basically Zhukov returns home, returns to his home village. But then what happens next is that Zhukov is conscripted again. He's conscripted by the Bolsheviks into the newly created Workers and Peasants Army, which comes to be known as the Red Army. And he's conscripted because he has this military experience. He's an NCO. He's just the kind of person they want to get back into the armed forces.
9:28 Speaker 05 But again, he's conscripted, right? But when he's conscripted into the newly created Red Army, that's when his political education becomes. Before that, he wasn't very political at all. But when he becomes part of the Red Army, then he gets very political and indeed himself becomes a communist, right? It's actually when he becomes a Red Army soldier, that's when he develops the self-control and discipline for which he later becomes feigned and anti-terminations. But of course, I have to remember, he's growing up. This is his early adulthood and yeah, sure, he matures. But again, in the Red Army, he has a successful career. He becomes what's effectively an officer. He's decorated for bravery again. He sees quite a lot of military action.
10:13 Speaker 05 But post-revolution, when the Russian Civil War comes to an end in 1921, 1922, Zhukov opts to remain within the Red Army. So it's his choice to continue the life of a soldier. And what he says about that, he says that what he liked about being a soldier was that every day was different. There's always something new happening, something going on. So for him, soldier was always interesting.
10:37 Dan Snow? The Russian Civil War really shaped the military education that someone like Zhukov received. To put it simply, this wasn't a war of trends. And static lines across the Western Front like the First World War. It was chaotic, it was sprawling, it was forced across vast territories, there were enormous advances and retreats. From nineteen seventeen to nineteen twenty-three, mobility was everything. Huge cavalry armies galloped across immense distances, often with little logistical support. Keeping men supplied with food, ammunition, winter clothing was as challenging as defeating the enemy. It was the kind of warfare that demanded quick thinking, improvisation, constant movement,
11:21 Dan Snow? decisiveness and the ability to identify and then strike at weak points across a shifting front. For an officer, speed, endurance, initiative were more important than, for example, marshalling overpowering firepower.
11:37 Speaker 05 It is very much a very mobile war. It's a war of manoeuvre, constantly changing front lines. Very, very complex struggle because, okay, so it's a civil war between the Bolsheviks on the one hand and the so-called white armies on the other hand. But there's several different white armed formations that the Bolsheviks are fighting on several different fronts. And Zhukov actually serves on several different fronts. So that's a very complex, fluid struggle. And of course, it is a civil war, right? So there's a struggle, a very brutal struggle going on behind the lines as well as on the front line as well. And in fact, Zhukov's part of that. His last military action during the civil war period, at the end of the civil war period, was being part of a unit that was suppressing, very brutally suppressing, a peasant revolt against Bolshevik rule.
12:19 Speaker 05 For all of the Red Army's like top commanders later on in the Second World War, the civil war, more so than the First World War, is a hugely kind of like formative experience in their military education.
12:31 Dan Snow? Yeah, mobility, being very confident with astonishing uncertainty, I can imagine, not sure where the enemy even are, what way you're going to be advancing next season. And then also pivot, strike, pivot, strike in different directions, different, you know, I can imagine that it's a heck of a training.
12:46 Speaker 05 Yeah, sure, but Zhukov is also trying to reduce. The uncertainty, yes, right, to understand the situation, to grasp the situation, right, to actually control it. I think that's one of his qualities. As he matures as a top-level military commander, is that ability to to envisage what's going on in a very complex battlefield or a complex campaign or a series of operations and attempt to actually impose order and discipline, because that's the way you're going to win.
13:12 Dan Snow? The mobility of the civil war suited Zhukov. He was a cavalryman after all, never happier than in the saddle, covering vast distances, taking an enemy in the flank by surprise. The war had taught him about managing complex and confusing combat situations, the importance of manoeuvre warfare. By 1923, following the victory of the Red Army in the civil war, he was in command of a cavalry regiment. He had gone to graduate from the Higher School of Cavalry in 1925 and progressed to the elite Frunz Military Academy. By 1933, he commanded an entire cavalry division. But as Zhukov advanced through the ranks, a new threat emerged. But that wasn't an attack by an enemy nation.
13:55 Dan Snow? It was the enemies at home he needed to worry about. During the 1930s, Stalin had become paranoid about potential opposition groups derailing the Soviet project, or more accurately, his project. He orchestrated a massive series of purges. He's peaked in around 1906 to 1908 during what became known as the Great Purge. Hundreds of thousands of so-called enemies of the people were arrested, they were tortured, they were executed, imprisoned. Stalin's secret police were busy. These purges were accompanied by show trials. There were accusations of treason and sabotage. Much of the old Bolshevik elite were destroyed.
14:37 Dan Snow? Stalin's personal dictatorship was cemented in. Every strata of society was affected, party officials, intellectuals, ordinary citizens. The Soviet military high command were far from immune. Between 1927 and 38, thousands of officers from martial downwards were removed, in some cases tried and executed. When so many officers faced ruin, imprisonment and death. How did Zhukov survive?
15:06 Speaker 05 Well, he didn't just survive, he thrives. Zhukov personally benefits from the purges. So in the 1920s, Zhukov is a Red Army commander. He becomes a regimental commander. That's where he remains. For the 1920s, seven years, he's a regimental commander. It's only in the 1930s that his promotion to the very top ranks of the Red Army begin. Okay, and that happens for two reasons. First is because there's a massive expansion of the Soviet Armed Forces during the 1930s. Rearmament, you know, to actually meet various external threats which Stalin and the other Soviet leaders see, right? But the second thing that's going on is from the mid 1930s on was are these like massive purges of the armed forces, right?
15:48 Speaker 05 And it's actually the purging of various people that creates vacancies for Zhukov to fill. So that's what's happened. When he's getting promoted, he's actually stepping into the positions that previously have been held by officers who have now been purged. Why is Zhukov himself not purged? It's because he's loyal and also because, okay, Zhukov becomes a communist, adopts a communist identity. He's committed to the communist cause, but Zhukov is not very political, right? So he doesn't get involved in political intrigues, yeah? So he's kind of like relatively apoliticalness, I think, helps him survive. But basically, he remains loyal. He doesn't cause any trouble. It's not to seem to be a political challenge in any way.
16:33 Speaker 05 But there's no doubt at all is that personally, in terms of his career progress, Zhukov benefits from Stalin's purges. When Zhukov comes decades later to write his memoirs, he tries to put a different spin on that. He says he was lucky to escape the purges and he tells stories about how he came under threat. Now, you know, I'm one of Zhukov's biographers. I kind of like to believe these stories, but I don't see any evidence for them. I'm a bit skeptical about that. Yeah, Zhukov survives because he was a loyal Soviet soldier and communist. And also he gets promoted because he's a very able soldier, a very able commander. Okay, he's not, he's no military genius. He's actually not one of the rising stars of the Red Army in the 1930s, right? But he's very, very, very solid. He's very, very liable, very, very competent.
17:18 Speaker 05 And whatever position he's given, he gets the job done.
17:21 Dan Snow? Zhukov's rise had so far? Been steady. He was clearly a competent officer and perhaps more importantly at that point, he was a reliable, loyal communist and party member. But in May 1939, Zhukov received the posting that would put him on the map as a battlefield commander. Between 1938 and 1909, there had been a series of bloody clashes, it's now largely forgotten but super important at the time, between Soviet and Japanese troops along the Kalkingo River on the Mongolian-Manchurian border. Zhukov was initially sent to investigate the reasons for unsatisfactory Soviet performance in the area. But as Geoffrey explains, this
18:06 Dan Snow? was an act of fate that would push Zhukov to the fore with a victory that would have an outsized strategic effect.
18:15 Speaker 05 Zhukov is also very lucky in his career in many ways. And this is one of these lucky turning points in his life because basically he's he's sent to Mongolia, to the Mongolian-Manchurian border in May 1939 on an inspection tour. He's sent there to have a look at the Red Army formation there, which is like locked in a, not actually in combat with the Japanese, but in a confrontation with the Japanese. Because Japan had invaded Manchuria in 1931. And that had created a border between Japanese occupied Manchuria and Mongolia. And there are border clashes, there are border conflicts and tensions. It's not actually quite clear. So Zhukov's sent to a place called Haokingo, Haokingo
19:00 Speaker 05 River, to actually inspect, see what's going on, to assess the performance of the local military command. But what happens when he's there is that there are some actual clashes with the Japanese, clashes in which the Soviets don't perform too well actually, right? So that creates an opening for Zhukov because his masters in Moscow decide, as he's on the spot, and he's got a good reputation, they decide to employ him the commander of the local forces at Haokingo. So that's how he comes to this senior command on the Mongolian Manchurian. Sure and border and how he comes to fight this battle with the Japanese in August nineteen thirty nine um the Haokin Gold Battle.
19:42 Speaker 05 Okay, and what he does is that he during this battle, he executes a classic kind of encirclement maneuver. Against the Japanese army, you know, he advances in the center, pins the Japanese down and then outflanks them. And he circles Japanese forces and he fixes huge defeat on Japanese forces. The Japanese defeat at Haokin Gold reinforces the difficulties they'll have in relation to their their campaign in China. Which isn't going very well, so it reinforces the advocates of the so-called Southern strategies. So, oh, I'll be that Japan should actually expand into Southeast Asia and the Pacific, of course, which actually precipitates. The clash with the United States, yeah. And that makes his reputation as a military, come on, of course, this is his first large scale combat operation.
20:27 Speaker 05 Yeah, okay, he had combat experience from the First World War and Civil War, but it's not until nineteen thirty nine. They actually conducts an actual military uh operation, yeah, so leads him later. Being promoted to the rank of full general. Zhukov's also lucky in another respect, so he has this luck being the man on on the spot. In time for this battle with the Japanese, which is very successful. But after the Haokin Gold Battle, Zhukov remains in Mongolia to negotiate with the Japanese. The terms of the armistice and negotiate a settlement of the conflict there. So he's out in Mongolia for several months after August nineteen thirty nine.
21:08 Speaker 05 Which of course coincides with the Red Army's attack on Finland in um the winter of nineteen thirty nine forty, right? And of course, that, okay, ultimately, the Red Army subdued the Finns, forces the Finns to. Sign a peace treaty which conceives the territory that Stalin wanted to capture from Finland. But the campaign is a very costly one and there's lots of mistakes made, I don't care. But Zhukov, because he's in the forest, has nothing to do with the campaign, so his reputation, he remains um unblemished.
21:38 Dan Snow? Following his success in Mongolia, Zhukov was awarded the Soviet Union's highest military honour, Hero of the Soviet Union. The first of four occasions on which he'd received the award. He was also promoted to general and given command of the Kiev Special Military District, a vitally important role in the defence of the Soviet Union's western borders.
21:57 Speaker 05 After the Finnish war, the winter war, Stalin appoints Marshal Timoshenko as the new Defence Minister. Marshal Timoshenko and Zhukov are quite personally close, having served together in the 1930s. So Zhukov's appointment to that major position is partly, at least in part, to do with his personal connections to Timoshenko. I don't think Zhukov was thinking about defending the Soviet Union. No, no, no. What he's thinking about is like all the Red Army leaders are thinking about. They're thinking about how they're going to attack Germany. I'm not saying what offensive operations they're going to conduct because the basic strategic
22:38 Speaker 05 orientation of the Red Army High Command, Zhukov included, was that when the Germans attacked, they weren't just going to sit back and defend, they were going to deal with that attack by launching a series of counter-offensives. And that's one of the reasons why Zhukov is posted to this frontline military district based around Kiev, yeah, because of his offensive success at Hauser-Kinold and because he's seen as someone who will be able to conduct the large-scale offensive operations which the Soviets plan to initiate when the Germans attack them. And it's also that kind of offensive-minded orientation of Zhukov's which leads to his next promotion.
23:22 Speaker 05 So he's head of the Kiev Military District, 1940, early 1941. Then in February 1941, he's appointed Chief of the General Staff. Okay. And that appointment follows a series of war games that the Soviets had conducted in January 1941. And these are war games about fighting a war with Germany. And Zhukov had taken part in those war games and had basically won, won these war games. So again, that reinforces his reputation as someone who has the ability to actually conduct counter-offensive operations against the Germans when the war comes.
23:58 Speaker 05 It makes sense to actually appoint Zhukov, chief of the general staff, because that's the basic strategic concepts that the Soviets have. When war begins, they're going to fight an offensive war against Germany. And that doesn't necessarily mean they're going to launch a preemptive strike. Or the idea is when the Germans attack, the Soviets are going to counter-attack. And Zhukov is seen as being the right person to be chief of the general staff in relation to that strategy. But here's the thing, Zhukov wasn't really a staff officer. He never had been. I don't think Zhukov ever really wanted to be chief of the general staff. You know, Zhukov was a frontline officer, and that was where his talent lay actually, not as a chief of the general staff.
24:40 Dan Snow? In June nineteen forty one, Nazi Germany and its allies launched Operation Barbarossa. It was the largest invasion in human history. Millions of enemy troops poured across the border from German-occupied Poland into the Soviet Union. Zhukov's plans would finally be put to the test. They would be found severely lacking.
25:04 Speaker 05 A crucial point here about the initial success of Operation Barbarossa, right? A lot of it was very much to do with the flawed nature of the Soviet preparations for this offensive war with Germany. Because what happens, okay, when the Germans launch Operation Barbarossa, the Soviets attempt to implement these plans for counter-offensive operations. And Zhukov is very much part of that. He's not actually part of it. The Germans attack on June twenty second. Within a day or two, Zhukov has returned to the Kiev Military District to actually take part in the counter-offensive that's going to be launched from that direction.
25:45 Speaker 05 But his counter-offensive turned out to be disastrous. They failed and they actually exposed hundreds of thousands of Soviet troops to encirclement, right? Those massive encircle operations also reveal another problem with Soviet preparation for the war. Is that they don't have any doctrine or plans or training to deal with encirclement? Because that wasn't what they anticipated happening. Anticipate being in circle, they anticipated encircling the German attackers. Zhukov as chief of the general staff does bear a lot of responsibility for the disaster that befalls the Red Army as a result of Operation Barbarossa. It's not just him, it's obviously the whole of the High Command. And obviously Stalin, Stalin is the supreme commander.
26:30 Speaker 05 Ultimately, it's Stalin's responsibility, not Zhukov's. But what you can say in Zhukov's favour is that in response to this huge disaster which unfolds as a result of Operation Barbarossa, where the Germans are very, very quickly reached the outskirts of Leningrad, Moscow, they they capture Kiev, they're penetrating very deep into Ukraine and southern Russia. It's at no time during this process does he lose his cool. He keeps his composure, right? And that's generally true of the Red Army. But one thing that does happen as a result of Barbarossa, what's going on, and it's not to do with failure, is that Zhukov leaves the position of chief of the Soviet General Staff. He's placed in charge of a reserve front, right?
27:15 Speaker 05 What's called a reserve front, about a big front, about fifty divisions, right? It is sometimes seen as a demotion, but I don't think it was. Zhukov was stepping aside as being chief of the general staff because he had a lot more to contribute as being actually a frontline commander of this reserve front. And it's this reserve front that actually does actually launch a partially successful counter offensive against the Germans as they're advancing towards Moscow along the Smolensk Moscow axis, yeah. But the other thing to say about this disaster of June twenty second, right? Is that at the time, it wasn't so shocking. Because of course, this is the German army that conquered France in just a few weeks, over around Western Europe, right?
27:56 Speaker 05 It wasn't shocking that the Germans had this huge military successes initially with Operation Barbarossa. So in that sense, blame wasn't being attached, right? What was actually shocking, or came to be shocking was The Soviets, the Red Army, Zhukov, Stalin, the Soviet hardcore, they were able to survive this huge defeat, huge defeat. By the end of nineteen forty one, the Soviets have suffered four million casualties. Just think about that.
28:24 Dan Snow? Barbarossa had been a catastrophe. Millions of men had been lost, thousands of kilometres of territory lost, untold destruction done. German forces had advanced deep into the Soviet Union. Following his removal as chief of staff in July nineteen forty one, Zhukov was sent to take control of several critical frontline commands. He redeemed himself. He proved his mettle as a frontline commander. He played a key role in stabilising collapsing sectors, such as during the defence of Leningrad. By the autumn, the fall of nineteen forty one, both sides had been battered and bloodied. But the German High Command was determined to make one last push to finish off the Soviet Union that year. They would strike at the
29:07 Dan Snow? capital, Moscow. They would decapitate the Soviet state. Zhukov was placed in charge of its defence.
29:17 Speaker 05 Of course, there is this famous photo of advanced German units being within the sight of the Kremlin, yes? And they're there and there's a, in the distance, there's the the Krim. That's what nowadays we would call like fake news, yes? It's a fake photo, obviously. It's a propaganda photo. Okay, so but why is it that the Germans are approaching Moscow when initially during the autumn, where you have the famous respiteza, the time of bad roads because of the rain and stuff like that, mud and things like that. And then all in that because of like the wintry conditions, which develop in October, November. Why is it that they're approaching at that point? Well, they're approaching at that point because their advance on Moscow has been held up for about two months in the Smolensk area. Huge
29:58 Speaker 05 battles going on in the Smolensk area, which delayed the German approach to Moscow, to the outskirts of Moscow. And it's really those Smolensk battles that are actually crucial battles in saving Moscow from German capture. And of course, one of those Smolensk battles is the battle that Zhukov waged as commander of this reserve front, Battle of And it's a battle in the Malensk area where Zhukov is able to push the Germans back, actually recapture occupied territory. Now, okay, the Germans recapture that territory not long after, but it's part of the massive delay the Germans suffered on the road to Moscow. But the Germans by October nineteen forty one are very much within striking distance
30:41 Speaker 05 of Moscow. Zhukov is recalled to Moscow by Stalin to take control of the defence of Moscow. He's recalled, by the way, from Leningrad, yeah, and he'd been sent to Leningrad by Stalin in order to help save Leningrad from German capture. Okay, but then Moscow becomes more of a priority. So Stalin brings him to Moscow, puts him in command of an army formation called the Western Front. So the Soviet, it's the Western Front of the Soviet Army. And its task is to defend the Soviet capital from the German, of German advance. And that's what it does. But also what's happening at the same time is that the Soviets are accumulating
31:22 Speaker 05 reserves east of Moscow, number of divisions east of Moscow, with a view to actually launching a counter-offensive, which will push the Germans away and safeguard Moscow. And Zhukov is very much part of the planning and preparation for that counter-offensive. Of course, you know, he's in charge of it. He's the commander of the front that conducts that. It's actually Zhukov's defence of Moscow and his counter-offensive of Moscow that really makes his reputation as a Soviet general. That's when it happens, right? So Zhukov very much seen as being the savior of Moscow. Of course, the other person who's seen as being the savior of Moscow
32:03 Speaker 05 at the time, and also in retrospect, is Stalin. Because Stalin doesn't evacuate the Soviet capital. There is quite a large scale evacuation of various Soviet ministries and diplomats and so on to Kubishov out of harm's way. But Stalin himself remains in Moscow. And of course, there's this famous parade through Red Square on November seventh nineteen Forty one, where Stalin reviews, reviews the troops, troops which are parading through Resskwa very shortly after us being sent to the front. So there's, there's a huge kind of like psychological aspect to the Moscow battle. And Zhukov is very much part
32:45 Speaker 05 of that psychology that we can survive and we can win. But also Stalin as well. So it's Stalin and Zhukov who saved Moscow, the two of them together. And that has actually, what the Moscow counter offensive signified was the operation Barbarossa had failed as a strategic operation. It was a failure. And now what the Germans were faced with, they were faced with fighting a war of attrition on the eastern front. And that was a war that they were going to lose. And of course, who was it who commanded the Soviet forces that launched the Moscow counter offensive? It was Zhukov.
33:21 Dan Snow? You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit. The best is yet to come. Stick with us.
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36:53 Dan Snow? Zhukov hadn't just halted the Nazi juggernaut outside Moscow, but for the first time in this war, he'd inflicted a stinging defeat upon it. This helped to convince Stalin that he'd finally found the right man for one of the toughest jobs in military history. Jeffrey explains.
37:13 Speaker 05 So I'd have met Zhukov, he knew Zhukov, you know about, of course you know about how king gold, right? He'd worked very closely with Zhukov when Zhukov was chief of the general staff. Zhukov has scores of meetings with Stalin in the period leading up to the German invasion in June 94. Yeah, so Stalin absolutely knows him, right? That's why he placed him in charge of this reserve front, right? And I think Zhukov's request, I think Zhukov requested to be relieved at the position of chief of the general staff because he thought he could do more good in charge of this reserve front. Now, there's an important biographical point to make here, which is in his memoirs, Zhukov claims that he was dismissed as being chief of the general staff because he'd
37:57 Speaker 05 opposed Stalin's policy in relation to Kiev, right? So there was a big battle of Kiev in the summer of 1941, right? And basically, Zhukov claims that he wanted to withdraw Soviet forces from the Kiev era to save them from encirclement by the Germans, whereas Stalin opposed that, Stalin did want to give up the defence of Kiev. So Zhukov says, well, we disagree. So Stalin, remove me in my position and then I went to command this reserve front. I'm not saying, I don't think that happened. I'm not saying there wasn't a disagreement. I think there was a disagreement between Zhukov and Stalin over what to do at Kiev. But I don't think that was the reason he left the chief of general staff position and went to reserve. I went to reserve because he was seen
38:42 Speaker 05 as the person that could actually do a job there in terms of mounting some kind of actual successful counter-offensive against the Germans, and he did that, he succeeded. And then he goes to Leningrad and he does quite a good job in Leningrad. So Zhukov is the obvious man for Stalin to call to Moscow, to defend Moscow, and Moscow is very much seen. Alexander Frey, you know, just not a, not a theory or a notion, right? Stalin, the Soviets fear greatly that Moscow is going to be captured by the Germans. So it's quite natural that Stalin will bring his best general back to Moscow to conduct the defence of the Soviet capital. And here's the thing, why does Stalin see Zhukov as his best general?
39:27 Speaker 05 Okay, it's obviously to do with Zhukov's performance as a commander, but it's also to do with Stalin's absolute conviction about Zhukov's loyalty and discipline and that he will do what is necessary, whatever it takes, and he'll also follow orders. He'll carry out his instructions to the left. So Stalin has this huge kind of trust in Zhukov as his top general.
39:54 Dan Snow? Moscow may have been saved, but victory was far from assured. The Wehrmacht and its allies may have received a bloody nose in the snows outside the Soviet capital, but its strength was certainly not spent yet. During the summer of 1942, Nazi Germany launched a monumental new offensive, this time in southern Russia. The aim was to seize the Soviet oilfields of the Caucasus, something vital to both sides. Germany needed them to fuel its war machine, and their loss would cripple the Soviet capacity to fight. German forces surging across southern Russia also struck towards the Volga, around the city of Stalingrad, in a bid to disrupt Soviet traffic on that great river, as well as seize
40:39 Dan Snow? the important industrial city. Zhukov would once again be called on by Stalin as the Soviet Union faced another crisis.
40:49 Speaker 05 The failure of Operation Barbarossa and the success of the Moscow counter-offensive. Okay, there are a series of winter battles, but basically there's kind of retrenchment by both sides as they prepare for the next round of spring and summer campaign. That's launched in June 1942, and like Barbarossa, initially, that campaign is a huge success, although... The casualties suffered by the Soviet side in summer nineteen forty two are considerably less than they were in nineteen forty one. The Soviets had learned some lessons about defence and about needing to retreat. Now, okay, so the Germans have launched some campaign,
41:28 Speaker 05 but actually Stalin and Zhukov remain convinced that the main battle is going to take place in front of Moscow. Their view is that Moscow is still the Germans' main target, because if the Germans could capture Moscow, they can win the war effectively. They don't really appreciate what's going on in the south. It takes them a while to get up to speed, right? But once Stalin does get up to speed and sees what's happening in the south, sees the breakthroughs that the Germans are making in the southern theatre, right, and sees the the threat to Stalingrad, like by August forty two, the Germans are on the outskirts
42:07 Speaker 05 of Stalingrad. That's the moment in which he gives Zhukov another job, right? He transfers him from being the chief of the Western Front Command, and he makes Zhukov his Deputy Supreme Commander, right? And Zhukov's job as Deputy Supreme Commander is basically is Stalin's personal representative, has all the power and authority that entails. But his most fundamental task is to coordinate the activities of the different Soviet fronts, because there are a number of different fronts, and they're fighting alongside each other. There's a need to to coordinate their action, to supervise their action, right? So that's Zhukov's job
42:47 Speaker 05 as Stavka Coordinator. Okay, and the first place he's sent to do this job of coordination, he's sent to Stalingrad, to the Stalingrad area, to actually coordinate the defence of Stalingrad, city itself, but also on the flanks of the city, and also the fighting that's going on elsewhere in the south. So Zhukov is very much at the centre of the unfolding action at Stalingrad. But the question is, okay, so the Soviets are defending, they're trying to stop the Germans from capturing the whole of Stalingrad. Of course, the Germans, as you know, actually did capture. Up to ninety percent of Stalingrad, but the ten percent that didn't capture was crucial
43:29 Speaker 05 to maintaining supply lines across the Volga. But the question is, well, what are you going to do apart from defending Stalingrad? Okay, and what you're going to do is another version of what the Soviets had done in relation to the Moscow battle. You're going to build up your forces in the rear and on the flanks, and you're going to launch a counteroffensive, a counteroffensive which has two goals. Firstly, to encircle the Germans within the city of Stalingrad, but actually, more importantly, actually to cut off the Germans' southern campaign, to trap the German forces heading towards Baku in the south. And that concept
44:11 Speaker 05 is not just about Stalingrad, it's not just about defeating the German southern campaign or rolling it back. It's actually seen as being a war-winning grand strategy, you know? The Soviets, if they can pull this off, they can not just win in the south, they can win across the whole of the front. It's Zhukov and not just Zhukov, it's Zhukov and Vasilevsky. Vasilevsky, who is the new chief of the Soviet General Staff, and Zhukov and Vasilevsky were very closely together in the war. It's Zhukov and Vasilevsky's plan for this massive counteroffensive in Stalingrad. It's their idea. They're the two who actually supervise the development, the operationalisation of this plan. And that's why, of course, we know, there is this famous
44:55 Speaker 05 Soviet counteroffensive in November nineteen forty-two, which very successfully entrapped the Germans in Stalingrad, policies, general policies, Sixth Army, yeah. Actually, the Soviets are rather surprised at how many Germans they trapped. They'd anticipated trapping about a hundred thousand, but as it turns out, there's about three hundred thousand German troops they trapped. So that's very successful. And then, you know, we all know about the subsequent siege of the German forces in Stalingrad and their eventual surrender at the end of January nineteen forty-three. The other Soviet operational goal is not achieved. They don't succeed in trapping the Germans in the south. The Germans were able to withdraw their forces.
45:36 Speaker 05 And the fact that the Germans are able to withdraw their forces from the Frust towards Baku, that's of huge significance. Because what that means is that for the next two years, they're able to wage a fighting, step-by-step defensive campaign in southern Russia and very, very importantly, in Ukraine. So that failure of the, actually the bigger goal of the operation is quite a sickle. Obviously, but what's that is a huge success.
46:03 Dan Snow? Despite the vast bloodshed at Stalingrad, Zhukov had once again achieved a stunning victory. And it is argued that it was here that the tide of the war was irrevocably turned. But how had he done it? And would there be any way back for Nazi Germany?
46:21 Speaker 05 It's meticulous preparation, preparation of overwhelming force to actually deliver the offensive blows and achieve the operational effect. Attention to detail, yeah. Zhukov is obsessed with preparation, obsessed with inspections, right? Training, yeah? Assembling all the technical means necessary to actually conduct the operations, right? It's his imagination which leads to this concept of a massive counteroffensive operation at Stalingrad. But in practical terms, he's involved in the coordination of the fronts, the various fronts involved in the operation and also, you know, making sure that the fronts are actually prepared and able to carry out their operational tasks.
47:05 Speaker 05 I suppose the overall mark of Zhukov is he placed a great emphasis on maskarovka. Maskarovka, masking, yes? Covering up Soviet intentions. And that is a big feature of the preparations for the Stalingrad counteroffensive is the degree to which the Soviets are able to cover up their intentions and to actually spring quite a big surprise on the Germans. And not just on the Germans, of course, because the big success of the Stalingrad operation wasn't just. Trapping the Germans, it was breaking through the flanks of the Axis armies. That campaign broke the Italian, Romanian and Hungarian armies, didn't it?
47:46 Speaker 05 Yeah, and it's actually their defeat at Stalingrad that leads to the disintegration, the political disintegration of Hitler's Axis alliance. And the way I look at the Stalingrad battle is that the Stalingrad battle is the point of no return for the Germans. There's no way back from the strategic defeat at Stalingrad. There's no, oh, Stalingrad, there's no doubt about the outcome of the war. The question is, how long is it going to take? How costly is it going to be, right? So for me, Stalingrad is the great turning point of the Soviet-German war, right?
48:19 Dan Snow? Zhukov may have achieved remarkable victories and broken the back of the Axis armies, but it had all come at a terrible price. Soviet casualties would continue to be terrible throughout the remainder of the war. A common criticism of Zhukov is that he was careless with the lives of his men. But is that really the case? Jeffrey doesn't think so.
48:39 Speaker 05 Nothing annoyed Zhukov more than these accusations that he was indifferent to the casualties on his own side, right? Nothing annoyed Zhukov more than armchair generals lecturing him or anyone else on how they could have won all these battles at far less cost but more efficiently, right? Look, Zhukov's casualties were no worse than any other Soviet generals. If you actually compare the stats, they're more or less the same. So the casualties are a function of the situation and the nature of the war. If you think about the casualties that are incurred on the Western Front during the First World War, it's kind of comparable levels we're talking about here in the Eastern Front context. But the other thing to remember is that Zhukov, Stalin in particular as well,
49:24 Speaker 05 were very like sensitive about the issue of casualties because of course, Soviet manpower resources are not unlimited. At the fairest point in the war, they find themselves running out of personnel. So they're very conceited to conserve their personnel as far as possible. But having said that, yeah, I mean, Zhukov, Stalin, all of the Soviet command, they were prepared to sacrifice. What soldiers were necessary to achieve their goals? I don't think they were like callous or cruel in relation to their troops, but they were certainly ruthless and determined and were prepared to incur high casualties, very high casualties in order to win the war. Okay, you can certainly make an argument they could have won the war with fewer casualties, but who knows?
50:09 Speaker 05 You can say that their disciplinary regime was too harsh. I mean, during the war, the Soviets executed more than 150,000 of their own troops for whatever, various offensives, right? But anyhow, you have to ask the question, was that the only way that they could win the war? And are you prepared to risk losing the war by maybe having a more benign approach to military discipline?
50:36 Dan Snow? You're listening to Dan Snow's History at There's More Coming Up.
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52:16 Dan Snow? Following the Soviet victory at Stalingrad, Soviet forces advanced rapidly. They'd retaken swathes of land and cities, including places like Kursk. The Germans had eventually halted the Soviets' advance with a series of desperate counterattacks, and the front had stabilised by March 1943. However, a large bulge was left projecting into the German line. Both sides knew that a clash here was inevitable. Hitler hoped to pinch off the bulge and destroy the Soviet forces within it, which then would forestall a Soviet summer offensive. On the other hand, Stalin believed the enemy was on the back foot and wanted to switch back to the offensive. Zhukov urged caution.
52:59 Dan Snow? He argued that they should let the Germans attack, be drawn into a trap with potentially devastating consequences.
53:08 Speaker 05 The Kursk battle was the Germans' last major offensive battle of the Soviet-German war. And the Soviets, Zhukov, they saw it coming. In a way, it was kind of obvious that the Germans would launch a big attack in the Kursk area. So the basic plan was to actually, to defend, to attrit, to wage a war of attrition in the Kursk area against the Germans, and having worn down the Germans, to launch a series of counter-offensive campaigns, right? And that's exactly what happened. The German attack in the Kursk salient failed, they suffered huge casualties, and the Soviets were able to launch a series of offensive operations. One of the most important of which was, and this is the one that Zhukov was centrally involved in
53:50 Speaker 05 as coordinator of the fronts, was an offensive into Ukraine. So following the Kursk battle, there's a year-long battle, which the Soviets fight to expel the Germans from Ukraine. And Zhukov is very much involved in that battle. He's centrally involved in recapturing Kiev in November 1943. So it's this huge battle for Ukraine in 1943, 1944, and it's one of the main focuses of Zhukov's activities in that period.
54:21 Dan Snow? After Kursk, it's clear that the Allies are going to win the Second World War. It's clear that the Soviets are going to liberate their own country and indeed push into much of Eastern and Central Europe. What's his thinking now in terms of strategy and as the operational plan? Is it just keep up the tempo operations, keep punching the Germans, keep them off balance? Or are you in Stalin, hoping to gobble up as much of Europe as possible? Like, what do you think's going through his head now from late 43 onwards?
54:50 Speaker 05 He very much focused on defeating the Germans, on reaching Berlin. That's his focus. So, okay, so you have the cursed battle in the summer of 1943. The next big operation campaign starts in the summer of 1944, June 1944. The famous Operation Bagration, which is an operation against Army Group Centre. And the aim of that operation is to liberate Belarusia from German occupation and to defeat, destroy Army Group Centre, right? One of the main directions of that Operation Bagration was towards Warsaw, into Poland and into Warsaw. And that's a hugely successful operation. So by the end of July, the Red Army is on the outskirts of Warsaw.
55:33 Speaker 05 But here's the thing, for Zhukov, Warsaw was a secondary objective, right? Zhukov argued in favour of focusing on entering into German territory in East Prussia. His focus is very much on the invasion of German territory. He thinks that Warsaw and Poland, that can wait. It's getting into Germany is what he wants to do. But he's overruled. The Soviet leadership thinks that actually it'll be easier to advance through Poland to Germany rather than to do it through East Prussia. So that's the question is, Zhukov is focused on getting to Germany, invading Germany, capturing Berlin. That's Zhukov's focus.
56:16 Dan Snow? Zhukov had led campaigns that had utterly shattered the Wehrmacht and Germany's allies.
56:23 Dan Snow? By the spring of 1945, Soviet armies were now deep into the Third Reich and were marching inexorably towards Berlin. Zhukov would finally get his chance to strike at the very heart of the fascist beast.
56:37 Speaker 05 So actually, the last great Soviet military operation of the Second World War is the operation which Zhukov captures Warsaw and then heads towards Berlin. In fact, the aim of the operation was to capture Berlin by February 1945. That was the strategic goal. And indeed, Zhukov's view at the time was that his forces were capable of capturing Berlin as early as February or maybe March 1945. The problem was, the danger was, were they capable of holding on to Berlin, having captured it, yeah? Okay, the Germans were down, but they weren't out, right?
57:20 Speaker 05 They still had considerable forces on hand in the Berlin area. There were lots of, like, dangers of German, localized German counter-attack, which could do a lot of damage to Soviet forces heading towards Berlin. So in the end, a decision was taken, and I think Zhukov was part of this decision, was to halt the advance on Berlin. This is in, you know, February 1945, with a view to resuming it later on in the year. And of course, that what happens is that the Soviet advance on Berlin is resumed in April 1945. The main thrust of that advance was conducted by the First Belarusian Front, and the commander of the First Belarusian Front was Zhukov.
58:02 Speaker 05 And it was Stalin who decided to give Zhukov this command and this mission of capturing Berlin, which was kind of like obvious in a way, natural, because of course, you know, Zhukov was Stalin's deputy supreme commander. Zhukov was Stalin's general, so it was only natural that Stalin would actually assign Zhukov this final mission, wartime mission of capturing Berlin.
58:28 Dan Snow? On the 16th of April 1945, the Soviet assault on Berlin began. The city was soon encircled. Soviet forces began to advance through the shattered cityscape itself. After days of desperate fighting amongst the smashed ruins of the Nazi capital, on the 2nd of May 1945, the last German forces in the city surrendered. Hitler was dead. Nazi Germany was utterly defeated. Days later, on the 8th of May, the formal surrender of Nazi Germany was signed in Berlin, overseen by Marshal Zhukov, who signed the decree on behalf of the Soviet Union. Zhukov was at the zenith of his career.
59:13 Dan Snow? But in the Soviet Union, when Stalin's your boss, success means danger. During the war, Zhukov had shown total loyalty to Stalin. He'd brought him victory after victory. He'd walked the tightrope of keeping on the right side of his mercurial leader. But with the laurels of victory being heaped upon Zhukov's head, Stalin's suspicions of him only grew. Some said that Stalin even feared his vaunted marshal.
59:41 Speaker 05 I think we've started with scared of Zhukov. Certainly suspicious, but then Stalin was suspicious of everyone. Zhukov has this reputation of being the only one among Stalin's generals being willing to stand up to Stalin, to speak his body first. And I think there is something to that reputation. But in the end, Zhukov is subordinate. It is a partnership, but in this partnership Stalin is the dominant partner. And that's true throughout the whole war. Of course, what happens at the end of the war is that Stalin goes very, I want to say suspicious, he gets very irritated with Zhukov because he thinks Zhukov is garnering too much of the glory of the victory in the Great Petrowar.
1:00:24 Speaker 05 He thinks that Zhukov is claiming too much credit for the great military feats of the war, and that he thinks that Stalin himself, he should get more credit than Zhukov seems to be. Stalin falls out with Zhukov. After the war, in June nineteen forty five, there's this victory parade in Red Square, yeah, and Zhukov is the one who takes the salute at this victory parade. Stalin is reviews the play from on top of the Lenin Mosley, right? But Zhukov takes the salute and then Zhukov finishes taking the salute, he's on the horse line, and then he goes out, he makes this speech, and then there's this parade of the various representatives of the various Soviet armed forces formation, right?
1:01:05 Speaker 05 And as part of that parade, when the high point of that parade is when two hundred Nazi banners are piled up against the Kremlin wall. Well, there's a very interesting eyewitness report of that parade. It's by Kathleen Harriman, who was the daughter of the American ambassador in Moscow this time, Avril Harriman. So she's at the parade, right? And what she witnesses, and she writes, this is in a letter a couple of days after the parade, what she sees is these banners being piled up against Zhukov's feet, at Zhukov's feet. That's the way she sees that scene being enacted, and that's not what you see when you see the Soviet newsreel event. I don't know, but I have a feeling that that moment might be the moment when Stalin's
1:01:49 Speaker 05 relationship or attitude towards Zhukov begins to sour. Okay, and that leads eventually to Zhukov being demoted and sent off to regional commands after the war. But a couple of points about that, about Zhukov's post-war banishment, if you like. The first point is that Zhukov never blamed Stalin for what happened to him. He didn't blame Stalin, he thought that Stalin was misled by people around him, right? And the second thing is Zhukov's like banishment and punishment is alienation from Stalin or distancing from Stalin is actually quite short-lived. By the late nineteen forties, when Stalin is still alive, Zhukov is being rehabilitated. He's coming back into the fold at the very top levels.
1:02:31 Speaker 05 In fact, Zhukov's opinion was that if Stalin hadn't have died, what he did in March nineteen fifty-three, Stalin was going to appoint him Minister of Defence. So one shouldn't exaggerate the extent of Stalin's falling out with Zhukov after the war. Zhukov's punishment by Stalin was, believe me, was very, very mild compared to the punishment that was meted out to other Soviet generals who were seen to be disloyal or insubordinate or something like that.
1:02:58 Dan Snow? In March nineteen fifty-three, Stalin suffered a massive stroke and died. His passing would provide Zhukov with The moment of rebirth and opportunity to step out of the wilderness as the Soviet Union lunged into a leadership crisis. This time, Zhukov would act to defend his nation against the possibility of a new era of terror from within.
1:03:22 Speaker 05 So after Stalin dies, Zhukov becomes deputy defence minister. And Beria, early on in that role, he plays a very kind of dramatic role in the arrest of Beria, Levrenty Beria, the Soviet security chief, right? Who's seen as by the other Soviet leaders as being a threat, as being a new Stalin, a new dictator, right? So they decide to arrest Beria and Zhukov is the main person who's deputed to actually carry out arrests, physical arrests. They lure Beria to a meeting and then Zhukov enters the meeting with so high ranking Soviet officers. And he grabs hold of Beria and he arrests him because a few months later, Beria is executed. But then a couple of years later, Zhukov becomes the minister of defence, yeah?
1:04:07 Speaker 05 And again, this is we're talking about Zhukov's lack in service to his career. The reason he becomes minister of defence in January nineteen fifty five is because the previous incumbent, Bulganyan, had stepped aside to become the new Soviet prime minister. Because Khrushchev, the new party leader, had fallen out with Malenko, who was the prime minister at the time. So Malenko was ousted by Khrushchev and then Bulganyan becomes the new prime minister, which creates a vacancy for Zhukov to become to minister of defence. And as minister of defence, Zhukov develops into being very hugely popular. He was always popular, but an even more popular figure in the Soviet Union.
1:04:48 Speaker 05 Problem is, that creates Zhukov as a threat as far as Khrushchev is concerned. Khrushchev falls out with Zhukov and dismisses him as minister of defence and actually forces Zhukov to retire from the armed forces in nineteen fifty eight. Yeah, so he has this amazing life story in many ways. He has this amazing kind of like military career during the Second World War. But then he also has this hugely colourful post-war political career as well.
1:05:14 Dan Snow? Zhukov's popularity and prestige meant that once again, he'd been pushed from the stage of national politics. Following his forced retirement, Zhukov lived quietly, writing his memoirs, spending time with his family and going on hunting and fishing trips. Old age and ill health eventually took their toll, and Georgi Zhukov, Marshal of the Soviet Union, died in April 1974 at the age of 77 in the Kremlin hospital. This is a series about some of the great commanders of the Second World War. And by the close of the conflict, the nature of things meant that not just the Soviets, but all the Allied armies had a raft of incredibly talented and successful leaders. How should we think about Zhukov?
1:05:58 Dan Snow? Is he the great genius of the Soviet war effort? Or was he merely first among equals?
1:06:04 Speaker 05 When I started writing my biography of Zhukov, or started on the work on it, I was skeptical, right? As far as I was concerned, Zhukov was too much of a disciplinarian, too much of a kick-ass commander, too vulgar. My preferred Soviet general of the Second World War was Rokosovski, who I saw as being much more benign, much more intellectual, right? Much more caring about his truths. But during the course of writing the biography, my perspective changed, actually. I got more sympathetic towards Zhukov as I went along, which is the kind of thing that I think tends to happen to biographers. So my disdain for his command style was balanced by my actual observation of all his qualities as a general and as a commander.
1:06:46 Speaker 05 And these amazingly kind of like complex and challenging, stressful conditions, it was just quite incredible to observe Zhukov. And actually, I think he's probably first among equals. He's probably the best, very much first among equals. Certainly, you know, in Soviet times or in contemporary Russia, Zhukov would be mostly considered to be the top Soviet general of the Second World War. And, you know, there were lots of people, myself included, would say he has a good claim to be the top general of the whole of the Second World War, the greatest general of the Second World War. Because of what he did, the success. Okay, he made mistakes, it was very costly. But ultimately, you know, he won, or was instrumental in winning the Arctic of victory in the greatest war in human history.
1:07:30 Speaker 05 It's very, very hard to argue against that. Yeah, if you're like handing out the accolades as to who the greatest general is. You know, so the assist biographer, well, I'm examining very, very close on what he's doing on a day by day basis, how he's behaving, what he's saying, plans and okay, plans go wrong and mistakes are made. But yeah, no, he is very, very impressive character to follow his action in detail. So in the end, I am one of those who have come around to view that Zhukov was certainly the greatest Soviet general of the Second World War and possibly the greatest Allied general of the Second World War as well.
1:08:04 Dan Snow? Marshal Zhukov is surely the embodiment of the ultimate Soviet soldier. Humble peasant beginnings, talent, discipline, drive, coolness under pressure and importantly, unflinching loyalty. They all saw him ascend to the very pinnacle of military command. He was also, like all great commanders, I cannot overstate this, lucky. He was in the right place at the right time. He won a victory at Kalkan Goll as many of his comrades were struggling in the forests of Finland. Stalin's purge took the lives of thousands, but presented him with opportunities for advancement. Zhukov was a commander forged in the white heat of military disaster.
1:08:49 Dan Snow? The Soviet Union needed victory. He gave it to them. He imposed order on the most confusing and complex battlefields. He faced down the gravest crisis and turned it into victory. His reputation as the savior of Moscow in nineteen forty one was reinforced by the campaigns he led at Stalingrad and Kursk. And later, he achieved decisive victories. From there, he expelled German forces from Ukraine and led the final assault on Berlin in nineteen forty five. He proved himself time and again. His success, though, was paid for in blood. The men who served under him suffered terribly. He could be ruthless. He was willing to pursue.
1:09:33 Dan Snow? Victory at the heaviest of prices. Although by the brutal measure of the Eastern Front, he was no worse than any of his contemporaries. He wasn't just called upon on the battlefield. He was just as useful in a political emergency. Whether it was Stalin in the war years or Khrushchev during the political vacuum of the 1950s, Zhukov was equal to the task. Even if in the end, it was that capability that proved too much for both Stalin and Khrushchev. Zhukov, I think, certainly has a claim to being the greatest Soviet general of the Second World War, possibly the greatest Allied general of the entire conflict.
1:10:13 Dan Snow? He was without a doubt instrumental in winning the greatest series of campaigns in human history. Well, that's it, folks. Huge thanks to today's brilliant guest, Geoffrey Roberts, Emeritus Professor of History at University College Cork. His biography, Stalin's General: The Life of Georgi Zhukov is essential reading. And he's just written another book. His latest work is Wartime Letters: Kathleen Harriman. Now, they are really interesting and they include that fascinating I went to the Victory Parade, which I described at the start of the episode. This was the fifth in our commanders series. Next Monday brings us up to the final episode where we're going to wrap up the series by discussing the best of the rest, the ones you didn't get a look in. Who are the other Second World War commanders that you think should be on the list?
1:10:57 Dan Snow? Who have we missed out? To find out, make sure you hit following your podcast player right now so you don't miss a thing. Thank you so much for listening.
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