Ian Fleming's Commandos

Amid the chilling tension of the Cold War, Ian Fleming captured readers with his character James Bond, whose missions were based on his experiences with the elite and secretive 30 Assault Unit in WWII. 30AU was established in 1942 by British Naval Intelligence and was overseen by Fleming. Their role was to capture secret German documents, weapon blueprints, and communication codes from behind enemy lines. They often targeted command centres, labs, and bunkers to recover valuable information and technology before they could be destroyed by retreating Axis forces. Dan is joined on the podcast by historian Dave Roberts to uncover some of the true stories behind the plots of From Russia with Love, Moonraker and The Man With the Golden Gun, and the array of real commandos who inspired Fleming's Bond. Produced by Mariana Des Forges and edited by Dougal Patmore. Sign up to History Hit for hundreds of hours of original documentaries, with a new release every week and ad-free podcasts. Sign up at https://www.historyhit.com/subscribe. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Snow?

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• 2:30Dan Snow?

  1956. El mundo se divide entre dos enormes bloqueos de poder. Los armados nucleares. Trigas de cabello. Una rivalidad que se desborda en cada aspecto de la vida. Ese fue el año en que un autor británico publicó una novela. Una novela que capturó parte del entusiasmo y el subdifusión de la era. Una historia de engaño, seducción y espionaje letal. El nombre del novelista fue Ian Fleming. Su libro se llamaba "De Rusia con amor". El personaje principal era un operativo MI6 llamado Bond, James Bond.

• 3:18Dan Snow?

  Nuestro héroe enfrenta una conspiración sinisteramente orchestrated by Smersh, la agencia de inteligencia contrainteligente ruthless de la Unión Soviética. Determinado a eliminar a Bond y embarrassar a la inteligencia británica, Smersh ofrece una bait irresistible. La promesa de la máquina de cifrado de la CIA, Spectre. Fue atrapada frente a Bond, por supuesto, por un enigmático y hermoso defector, Tatiana Romanova. Llevando la bait, Bond embarca en una misión peligrosa a Istanbul, una ciudad de sombras. Una arena de competencia de oriente-veste. Fleming escribe: "Ese brillo en los ojos de Em, pensó Bond. Cuán bien sabía esos momentos cuando los ojos negros y gris de Em

• 4:03Dan Snow?

  traicionaban su entusiasmo y su codicia". "Tenía una última carta a jugar y sabía que era la de la ace de trump. Si pudiera venir a nosotros, traería su máquina de cifrado con ella. Es la nueva máquina Spectre, la cosa que daríamos nuestros ojos para tener". "Dios", dijo Bond suavemente, su mente agitándose por la inmensidad del premio. La Spectre, la máquina que les permitiría descifrar el tráfico secreto más alto de todos. Tener eso, incluso si su pérdida fue descubierta inmediatamente y los ajustes cambiaron, o la máquina retirada de servicio en embajadas rusas y centros espionales por todo el mundo, sería una victoria sin valor".

• 4:46Dan Snow?

  So, it's a cipher machine that could crack all top-secret Russian traffic. Well, that all sounds pretty familiar now. It sounds exactly like the Enigma machine, the one the Nazis used to encrypt all their messages during the Second World War. And yet, the eagle-eyed among you will have realised that 1956 was way before the whole story of Enigma had been declassified. So how had some novelist got wind of this intensely guarded official secret? Well, because Fleming was no ordinary novelist. He'd been a senior wartime intelligence officer. And he seems to have based this storyline on the hunt for the German cipher machine, the Enigma.

• 5:29Dan Snow?

  Fleming was drawing on his experience with 30 Assault Unit, which was a rather unconventional group of commandos who were formed to focus on capturing German signals intelligence, documents, blueprints, communications codes. They operated behind enemy lines, usually targeting command centres, signals hubs, intelligence bunkers, always looking for top-secret material and objects. So, folks, we've all heard the stories of this person or that person inspired Bond. My in-laws would like to tell you that one member of their family inspired Bond, and maybe they're right. But what is certainly true is that much of Bond

• 6:10Dan Snow?

  is based on the exploits the men of 30 Assault Unit. And that's because we know that Fleming was instrumental in forming that unit and in charge of overseeing their escapades. So today, let's talk about 30 Assault Unit. There is no better person to tell us this astonishing story than Dave Roberts. He's a historian, he's the leading voice on 30 Assault Unit, and he tells me how their DNA is still in many of the special operations units that we still have today. You're listening to Dan Snow's History Hit. This is the true story of Ian Fleming's Bond.

• 7:04Dan Snow?

  Dave, thank you very much for coming on the podcast.

• 7:07Speaker 04

  It's a pleasure to be here and thank you for having me.

• 7:09Dan Snow?

  Whose idea was this sneaky elite unit?

• 7:14Speaker 04

  Fleming would love us to believe that it was his original idea, but he basically pinched it from the Germans. The Germans, Admiral Canaris, had created a sort of a special intelligence unit for their early operations into the Balkans particularly, where this elite unit would race ahead on motorbikes, seize headquarters, codes and so on. They were known as the Abwehrkommando and Fleming, amongst others in the British intelligence world, had come across these. But in March 1942, it's Fleming that writes the proposal that grabs the attention and...

• 7:51Dan Snow?

  Well, in that case, let's talk about Ian Fleming. What has war been like thus far? Was he a pre-war intelligence officer or was he a wartime recruit?

• 8:00Speaker 04

  So he was a wartime recruit. He'd been headhunted by John Godfrey, Director of Naval Intelligence in early 1939. Prior to that, he'd been a failed stockbroker and a journalist for Reuters, who once famously described himself as the world's worst stockbroker, despite the fact that that was the family business, that's where they'd made all their money.

• 8:22Dan Snow?

  To be fair, the 1930s, the 20s and 30s have been a bit lumpy for the old stock market, so you've got to have some sympathy with them.

• 8:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, probably not the best time to be a stockbroker, but he turned out to be a better journalist and ended up covering a show trial in Moscow in the mid 30s, where some British engineers were being put on trial for spying. And that caught the attention of the Foreign Office, who then sent him back to Moscow to do a bit of fact finding. And that then brought into the attention of Naval Intelligence in July 39, as obviously war is approaching and they're having to gear up for another war.

• 8:59Dan Snow?

  Just before we launch into the war itself, is there anything about his character or his pre-war experiences that suggested that he'd be particularly good, particularly suited to his role? And when he was recruited, exactly what would that role be?

• 9:12Speaker 04

  So he was recruited as personal assistant to the Director of Naval Intelligence, which basically meant that anything that landed on the desk of the Director of Naval Intelligence, we're going to go through Fleming first. So he was going to be at the very heart of the British intelligence services. Pre-war, he'd had a very chequered past. He'd lived a bit of a Playboy lifestyle. He'd been a disappointment to his mother. His father had been killed in the First World War. And he had an elder brother, Peter, who was fairly successful as an author and a diplomat as well. So he had something to live up to. But I wouldn't say there was anything that really singled him out as an intelligence specialist.

• 9:54Dan Snow?

  But quite quickly, does he take to the job?

• 9:58Speaker 04

  He does. And I think one of the things that he probably does have is he has an imagination. And he has this idea that anything is worth trying. And some of the schemes, some of the plans that he comes up with are some of the most audacious of the war. Thirty Commandos is probably the most successful. But he's involved with Operation Postmaster, which is subject of ungentlemanly warfare, the Ministry of Ungentlemanly Warfare. He's part of that. He's involved in Operation Mince Meat. He's involved in Golden Iron Tracer, which plans in case Gibraltar falls to the Germans if Spain comes into the war. But

• 10:37Speaker 04

  probably his most audacious and flamboyant was Operation Ruthless, which is his plan to use a captured German bomber, crash-land it in the Channel, full of commandos. And then when the German rescue boat comes out to rescue the downed German crew, the commandos leap out, jump on the boat, capture the boat and their enigma machines and codebooks, and sail it back to the UK.

• 11:04Dan Snow?

  And what happened to that plan?

• 11:07Speaker 04

  Unbelievably, that plan made it to the point where they were about to take off, but unfortunately it was stopped by weather. Yeah, it seems mad that it would even get across that many tables that it needed to, but it did.

• 11:18Dan Snow?

  Wow, I love that plan. Okay, let's go back though. You mentioned a couple of the famous events, Operation Mincemeat. People have heard a podcast about that on this feed a few years ago for the anniversary. Talk to me about Operation Postmaster, featured in the recent Guy Ritchie film. Just while we're on the subject, Fleming appears in that. What's the myth versus reality on that episode?

• 11:37Speaker 04

  So as I said earlier, Fleming's at the heart of everything that's going on in the intelligence world, whether he's working for naval intelligence, but he's working hand in hand with SOE, with MI6, with MI5, all those intelligence organisations. He knows what's going on. So it's not surprising that he appears in the film with Operation Postmaster, with Mincemeat. He's always in the background. He's always enabling these things to happen without perhaps necessarily being the brains behind it. He's the one that is pushing it along.

• 12:12Dan Snow?

  So Operation Postmaster, going into the film anyway, they send a group of cutthroat men who they can deny their existence, they're so operating outside of the British military mainstream. They send them down to West Africa to sabotage German U-boat support vessels. And Fleming is seen as the man pulling the strings. Is there any truth to that or is it a great film?

• 12:30Speaker 04

  I love the film and I love the truth version of it. And it's not quite the film. The film I describe is, you know, the old commando comic stories. That's what the film is. The truth is probably a little less flamboyant.

• 12:43Dan Snow?

  And the truth on that occasion is, did they launch that raid and disable German capabilities to operate in the Atlantic?

• 12:49Speaker 04

  As far as I know, yes, that did happen and they were reasonably successful. And it did lead on to other things. And it's one of the very first operations like that. It's one of the very first times that Britain takes this fight to the Germans, you know, having been thoroughly humiliated by Dunkirk. It's one of those first chances we get to really kick back.

• 13:08Dan Snow?

  Let's talk about, so Fleming, he's helping to send out raids, special forces units down to the coast of Africa, all over the shop. He's tried to crash a load of commandos into the ocean on aircraft, which strikes me as extraordinary. Tell me about this 30 assault unit. What was his idea here?

• 13:26Speaker 04

  So if we look at early 1942, it's probably one of the darkest periods of the war for Britain at that time. America hadn't really geared up at its war effort yet. It was in the war, but it wasn't fully engaged. Britain had suffered some humiliations with the loss of Singapore and the loss of Benghazi. And the war in the Atlantic still wasn't going in Britain's favour. Although Bletchley Park were managing to crack codes and so on, numbers of shipping and tonnes of shipping that was being sunk in the early 1942 is going up and up. And in February 42, the Germans are introducing a new Enigma machine, a four rotor machine, which means that Bletchley Park will then go blind effectively on naval messages, which could be disastrous

• 14:10Speaker 04

  for the Battle in the Atlantic. So priority for all the intelligence agencies is this new Enigma machine, this special intelligence, as the Royal Navy called it. So Fleming comes up with this idea, and I strongly believe that his main and sole aim for this was to grab signals intelligence, SIGINT, Enigma codes, Enigma machines, Enigma ciphers, anything to enable Bletchley Park to keep reading these messages, so that U-boats didn't get the upper hand. So in March 42, he writes this proposal. The Director of Enable Intelligence, John Godfrey, agrees, pushes it forward to Joint Intelligence Committee, which is the

• 14:53Speaker 04

  most senior intelligence organisation in Britain. And at that meeting in August, it is approved that an intelligence assault unit will be formed with a variety of tasks, but the main one being signals intelligence.

• 15:08Dan Snow?

  That was just, shows how important that was. Fleming had obviously learned a lot about the war by this stage. What did he decide to differently, or what's he build on in terms of when he puts together this new unit?

• 15:18Speaker 04

  I think one of the things he decides when this new unit comes out is that up until this point, any signals intelligence, any enigma things that have been captured have almost been captured by luck rather than by any sort of planned organisation. And it's been done very hit and miss. So some had been captured, obviously, from U110 in May 40. There'd been some raids up in Norway that had come away with some. But he felt really strongly that one organisation, one unit specifically trained and targeted with this would be beneficial. And Chief of Combined Operations Louis Manbatten agrees with this, as does MI6.

• 15:57Speaker 04

  And via MI6, Bletchley Park see that this, having one specially trained organisation under the command of combined operations controlled by naval intelligence, will be the way to go forward.

• 16:10Dan Snow?

  And what kind of men is he looking for?

• 16:13Speaker 04

  So, as I said earlier, with any of these units, you tend to find that the eccentrics, the oddballs. And interestingly, every naval officer that was recruited into 30 Commando were reservists. They were Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve officers. So they were part timers, they weren't career naval officers. And it's a bit of a feeling that no career navy officer wanted to go anywhere near something this odd, that this was seen as career ending possibly for a professional naval officer. When it's formed in August 42, though, they choose Robert Ryder as the initial commanding officer. And he'd been the CO for the raid at Saint-Nazaire and won his VC there.

• 16:56Speaker 04

  So he was someone who was experienced, had a name, could carry some clout. And he recruits similar type men. So he recruits another polar explorer, Quentin Riley. And he also recruits Dunston Curtis, who was an MGB commander at Saint-Nazaire and won a DSC at Saint-Nazaire. So he starts to pull in like minded, slightly oddball, slightly unique characters. Because this was going to be a unique, slightly off the wall, private army, if you like.

• 17:30Dan Snow?

  And I'll pick you up on that. Who's private army? I mean, who's tasking these people? Is it Fleming?

• 17:37Speaker 04

  It is. So there was obviously some argument as to who would be in ultimate control. And it's put under the control of combined operations. But Fleming and naval intelligence make it very clear that they are the ones that are choosing the targets. They are the one that are issuing the orders. And the only thing that will come from combined operations is things like supplies and recruits and so on. But all the targets, all the planning, all that is coming through naval intelligence and all of that is coming through Fleming himself at this moment in time.

• 18:09Dan Snow?

  So, okay, how does he choose to wield this private army? What are its first few missions?

• 18:15Speaker 04

  So the very first time it appears is in Operation Torch, the invasion of North Africa in November forty-two. A small party had been detailed to assault Dieppe as part of the Dieppe raid, to grab some of this full rotor Enigma technology and codebooks. As we know, Dieppe was a disaster. The men that survived that formed the nucleus of this new unit. But the first time they go into action is in Algiers on the eighth of November, nineteen forty-two. They are tasked with assaulting the port of Algiers, capturing the French Admiralty buildings in Algiers, and finding whatever signals intelligence

• 18:56Speaker 04

  they can grab from that. This is Lieutenant Curtis and six Marines. They are due to assault Algiers harbour on two old British destroyers, very typical of the sort of Santander's Dieppe type raid. They're going to sail these two destroyers in, pull them up alongside in the port. These US infantry are going to leap over the side, take the port, and Curtis and his Marines are going to go off and seize the Admiralty. And all of this is going to happen because the French are just going to go, oh, it's the Americans, we'll let them in, it's fine, don't worry. Doesn't go to plan. The French decide that they are going to open fire on these two destroyers. One of the destroyers carries on into the harbour, the Americans unload, disembark, and are very quickly rounded up. Curtis decides,

• 19:41Speaker 04

  we're not doing this. His destroyer pulls away, and Curtis and his Marines land about six miles to the west of Algiers and decide to, in true Marine style, yump it into Algiers themselves on foot.

• 19:58Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Dan's Notes History. This is the story of Thirty Assault Unit, the story behind Bond, more coming up.

• 20:06Dan Snow?

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• 22:57Dan Snow?

  Do they get a good haul of intelligence materials?

• 23:00Speaker 04

  So, one of the things is that Curtis refers to the excellent planning that had been, he was surprised at how good the planning was because they arrive in Algiers, they're directed to Italian commissions, they're directed to certain targets. And they do come up with a decent haul. They walk away with a previously unknown Enigma machine used by the German Avver, which has very quickly got to Bletchley Park and allows them to break some traffic. So their first operation, although started disastrously, does create a decent enough haul for them to be, okay, this is something we need. And it begins to get them noticed in the eyes of the planners. And they start to be included in, in bigger and better plans. The next operation is that they head back to Algiers and they head back to Tunisia as

• 23:45Speaker 04

  the Americans and the British are starting to close in on Rommel's Africa Corps. And again, it's Curtis, it's about 15 Marines this time, in a couple of Jeeps and a motorcycle. And part of their operation, they basically SAS style, and drive across from the American First Army in the West, cross the German front line, and join up with the British Eighth Army in the East, having traveled about, roughly about 500 miles across desert and salt lakes. Thirty's commandos' role was to seize enemy intel as quickly as possible. So that meant that they had to be on the front line or ahead of the frontline troops.

• 24:27Speaker 04

  So often they found themselves arriving alongside first allied troops into a city. Sometimes over the first allied troops into towns and cities. Particularly when they get to France and Germany, they're liberating villages and towns in France before any Americans or British other troops get there. But in the desert, they didn't like keeping a low profile. So the stories of them hurtling past British infantry who are very gingerly digging for mines and so on. And suddenly these two jeeps go whizzing past, one of them flying a huge white Ensign. As these sailors in jeeps, described by somebody in Combined Operations as "authorized and armed expert looters", that's how they were described officially. So yeah, so they they caused a bit of a scene.

• 25:12Speaker 04

  They then are part of Operation Husky, the invasion of Sicily. And then they're also involved in Operation, the Operation Landing in Salerno in Italy. So they're in the planning for every amphibious landing that now goes on from this point onwards, culminating in the D-Day landings where they take part.

• 25:30Dan Snow?

  And that role, very simply put, that role is to go as near to the first wave as you can, but just with a very specific job of targeting enemy signals, communications, equipment, and trying to get it back to Betsy Parkinson as they can.

• 25:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, and a list of targets, the list of things they were tasked with obtaining grew and grew. So what you find is that they basically are given a shopping list from all the different departments. So they've obviously got signals, intelligence, but then they need to find technology for torpedoes, radar, they need to find technology for mines. Later on, they're tasked with hunting down the V1 sites, rocket technology, midget submarines, new propulsion systems, rocket scientists. So that what happens is they get this shopping list, which is produced in the Admiralty. And then these teams are sent out to go and find it. And the issue you have is not only you've got to get there before the enemy can destroy it,

• 26:29Speaker 04

  you've got to get there before the enemy can destroy it and before your own troops can go in and start to just basically loot, if you like.

• 26:37Dan Snow?

  We'll come on to another couple of case studies in a second, but in general, were they discharging their weapons? They doing a bit of fighting as well? Or are they slipping in and slipping out and keeping their heads down?

• 26:48Speaker 04

  They would try and avoid any confrontation if they could because they were very lightly armed. So they were riding around in Jeeps. Later on, they had some armored cars, but they were lightly armed. They had, generally they had American weapons because they often operated in the American areas. So it was easier. But really, if they did get into any trouble, they would sort of back out quite quickly and they became quite adept at that. But they weren't shy of getting involved and getting stuck in. And there are certainly lots of occasions where they'd get involved in the fighting. In fact, at one point, they get told off for getting involved in the fighting when they shouldn't have been.

• 27:25Dan Snow?

  Well, let's come on to D-Day, the ultimate amphibious landing. What were they doing that day?

• 27:30Speaker 04

  So at the end of 1943, 30 commando were basically called to the UK in preparation for D-Day. So it was clear then that they were going to be involved right at the heart of the planning. And they're reorganized, they're expanded. Prior to December 43, there'd been a maximum of sort of 50 men in the unit. As they approached D-Day, they're expanded to nearly 200. And the plan is that they'll land in three teams. So one team, Pike Force, will land on Juno Beach. On D-Day, eight hour plus 30, so 30 minutes after the first troops land, they land alongside the Canadians on Juno Beach. Curt Force will arrive on Gold Beach later that day.

• 28:15Speaker 04

  And then Wall Force, the main body of the unit, will arrive on Utah Beach two days later. So that's the plan. And each of those units is tasked with certain targets. So what we're known as the Black Books were prepared with target lists of what they were looking for, where they might find it.

• 28:35Dan Snow?

  And did they succeed?

• 28:37Speaker 04

  So yeah, and unbelievably, Kirkforce and Pikeforce land with no casualties at all. That's particularly surprising, I suppose, for Pikeforce who'd land alongside the Canadians. They landed alongside the North Shore Regiment, which was heavily hit with casualties. But Pikeforce, this small group, managed to get up onto Juno. They get up off the beach through Saint-Oman and end up the day at the chateau at Talvia, not having reached their first day target, which was the radar station at Douve, but certainly having made an impact through there. One of the Marines remembers seeing one of the naval officers landing on Juno Beach, carrying a walking stick and being more interested in the butterflies he could find in the hedge

• 29:22Speaker 04

  than actually the shells and the bullets that were whizzing past him at the time, which gives you some idea of the caliber of men that were involved.

• 29:30Dan Snow?

  Eccentric, brave, inquisitive.

• 29:34Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes. Yeah, and that was one of the things he was describing. He just seemed to be very curious all the time, apparently, this officer.

• 29:42Dan Snow?

  After D-Day, did they get useful intel?

• 29:46Speaker 04

  They did. So what they then do is they fan out and the targets become Cherbourg is the main German naval base in the area. But very quickly, once the V1 rockets start launching on the 13th of June, the RAF, who hadn't really been interested in this unit at all and didn't want anything to do with it, suddenly put out a request for 30AU to start finding some of these V1 launch sites and any relevant technology. So on the 17th of June, they find the first V1 site. And in fact, the Air Ministry write directly to the Director of Naval Intelligence, thanking him for 30AU's efforts and the captures that they've managed to find in that.

• 30:30Speaker 04

  So they could turn their hand to whatever was needed, really.

• 30:33Dan Snow?

  Speaking of which, submarine facilities, there's a famous raid that you've talked about in Brittany, isn't there? Tell me about that.

• 30:40Speaker 04

  Obviously, the ports were the main targets. Cherbourg fell around July time forty-four and they're then expanding out into Brittany, operating alongside American troops. So the only British unit really that's operating in that area. They're literally driving around trying to find anything, picking up intel on the spot, arriving in towns and villages as the Germans are exiting the other end, being welcomed by these French civilians because they're the first Allied troops that are in there. But there's one instance where they get a bit of intelligence that there's a German radar station up on the north coast at a place called Saint-Pabu. And Lieutenant Hughill is driving around with a small party of Marines, there's about

• 31:21Speaker 04

  half a dozen Marines, and he comes across a funeral procession and they're informed that the four young men who are being buried have just been murdered by the Germans up at Saint-Pabu. So Hughill, in true British style, goes, okay, let's go and have a look, let's go and see what's going on. They get close to the radar station and are told that there's roughly about between three and five hundred Germans in this radar station. There's Hughill, another lieutenant, and six Marines. And again, Hughill in true British style goes, okay, let's try something. Let's, let's pretend that we are the lead element of a very large force and let's go and see if we can get these Germans to surrender. So, under the cover of a white flag, him and two Marines walk up to the main gate

• 32:06Speaker 04

  of this radar station, asked to see the commandant, who turns up with his officers. There's a bit of a standoff. Some of the German officers, particularly a veteran of the Africa Corps, don't really want to surrender, but Hughill's quite adamant, you know, if you don't surrender, we've got a hundred odd tanks over the hill there that will just come and blast you out. So eventually, they do give up and these six Marines take the surrender of over two hundred and eighty Germans, simply by pretending to be part of a much larger force and bluffing these Germans into believing that. It almost doesn't quite go to plan because as the Marines are sort of taking the surrender,

• 32:48Speaker 04

  one of the Germans, as he walks past, one of the Marines hands him a camera and is very friendly and says, oh, you know, here's a present for you and so on. Sandy Powell, who's the Marine, takes the camera, looks at it and sees a very odd looking wire coming out of the top of it. And this German had basically booby-trapped the camera. And Powell decided, no, I'll put that aside. He does say that if he'd ever seen that German again, he wouldn't have been held responsible for what he would have done to him. But Hugo earns a DSC and the two Marines earn DSMs for that, Distinguished Service Cross and Distinguished Service Medals. So, things that they weren't supposed to be doing, you know, they would quite happily do. And again, it's just part of this mad story that is 30 Commander.

• 33:32Dan Snow?

  And I'm sure they made a good Hall of Intelligence material there as well in that radar station.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, and a rather large wine cellar as well, apparently.

• 33:41Dan Snow?

  You're listening to Dan's Notes History. This is the story of 30 Assault Unit, the story behind Bond, more coming up.

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• 35:27Dan Snow?

  Tell me about Tannbach Castle.

• 35:30Speaker 04

  So the officer I mentioned before, who was very interested in the butterflies, Trevid Glanville, who is an interesting character. He is leading a team in Germany. Sort of spring 1945, Germany's collapsing. And he grabs a bit of intelligence from a letter that they find. But there are some German naval documents in a castle called Schloss Tannbach, somewhere in the area. So he heads off. They arrive at this castle. They go up to the front door, knock on the door. Sentry answers and Glanville says, right, I'd like to see the admiral in please. And the sentry turns around and goes, which one? There are three of them.

• 36:13Speaker 04

  And what they'd stumbled across was the entire German naval archives from 1870, which had been transferred out of sort of Berlin or wherever, on the orders of Admiral Donitz, to, in a sense, try and prove that the Kriegsmarine had not been complicit with the Nazi regime. It was meant to try and prove that the Kriegsmarine had been honorable and professional rather than in any way. But the thing is, Glanville turns up with his team. There are three German admirals there. There is the original Countess who owns the castle and is still living in the castle and refuses to allow the Germans to fly a swastika outside the castle.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  But there are also a group of very fanatical Nazi female German naval women who spend the next day trying to burn all of these archives so that they can't get into the hands of the British. So Glanville ends up having to arm some of the German sailors that are there so that him, them and his marines can guard the German naval archives from these fanatical women who are trying to burn and destroy them.

• 37:24Dan Snow?

  Wow.

• 37:25Speaker 04

  It's such a significant haul of information that Fleming himself flies out from London to have a look at it and take charge and try and take a little bit of the glory for it as well.

• 37:36Dan Snow?

  How is Fleming using this intelligence in the bureaucrat's battle in Whitehall? I mean, is he growing in stature and importance as this unit comes up with more and more of the goods?

• 37:47Speaker 04

  I think Fleming finds himself in a difficult position because as the unit grows and grows and expands and becomes more professional and becomes more of a, if you like, a "normal" in inverted commas, "unit", he loses some of his control. It's no longer his own little private army. And he does clash heads with with some of the officers because particularly in 1945, he's trying to give operational orders to them and the Royal Marine Colonel, who's now in charge, is going, "No, I'm not taking operational orders from a naval officer who sits behind a desk in the Admiralty." So, yeah, he does begin to lose a bit of it. And although he was quite popular with the Marines, he was really not liked by the naval officers in the unit at all.

• 38:32Dan Snow?

  Tell me how you think that this unit, of all the people that he met during his work in intelligence, why did this unit, do you think, inspire Fleming's famous James Bond stories?

• 38:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, because one of the things you often see is such a body was the real James Bond. You know, my grandfather was the inspiration of James Bond and all of this. And the clear fact is that James Bond is an amalgamation of so many characters that Fleming came across during his time in intelligence. And some of those, yeah, did indeed work in 30AU. There's there's one who was touted as one of the strongest candidates for James Bond, and that's a naval lieutenant commander called Patrick D L Jobb. He was Scottish, he was an expert skier, he married a Norwegian wife, he was a sailor, and he was, again, a bit of an eccentric.

• 39:26Speaker 04

  He played the bagpipes regularly in camp at night in France and Germany. When they were operating in France, he had a captured German machine gun welded to the front of his jeep and would lead his small troop of vehicles by standing up in his jeep and waving a fencing sword in the direction he wanted to go. So, yeah, he's seen as sort of one of them, but... Thirty AU and its exploits and the people involved start to sort of filter into the Bond novels. So you can begin to see connections where Fleming has been involved in things and he's just sort of stored it away to use later on. So for instance, from

• 40:08Speaker 04

  Rushy with Love, the whole basis of that story is obviously the hunt for the Spectre machine, which is clearly an enigma machine. Some of the characters, so Tony Hughill, he appears in The Man with the Golden Gun. So he's a character in there. In Moonraker, Hugo Drax was involved with the V2 rocket technology and obviously Thirty AU were hunting those scientists and capturing those scientists at the end of the war. So there's definitely a lot of inspiration there for Bond.

• 40:41Dan Snow?

  What happened to the unit after the war and is its legacy continued?

• 40:46Speaker 04

  So at the end of the war, the unit is disbanded. But you can see inspiration, you can see the legacy of it in modern special forces today. So the idea of exploiting enemy intelligence and targets is used and has been used by special forces since then. In 2010, the Royal Navy renamed its UK Landing Force Support Group Command, they renamed that Thirty Commando Intelligence Exploitation Group in honour of their wartime predecessors. And that unit today is operating slightly in that Merkia intelligence, surveillance, electronic

• 41:24Speaker 04

  warfare aspect of modern warfare. So Thirty Commando lives on today. Its legacy can be seen in special forces operations and its legacy in terms of its men that served during the war. Sadly, there's only one survivor that we know of at the moment. That's Tom Bonham and he lives, he lives over in Canada very healthily, 101 years old.

• 41:50Dan Snow?

  What a legend. We Brits love to tell each other these stories about slightly eccentric, daring, very, very brave people who didn't think in straight lines, as Churchill said. There is something unusual about the Brits, or would the French, the Americans, the Germans, the Russians, all have stories like this about units and ways of going about things? It's just that we're blind to those because of our patriotism.

• 42:13Speaker 04

  I genuinely think there is something in the British psyche, or there certainly was in 1939, 94. There was definitely something in the British psyche that meant that we ended up with these types of men and these types of units. Because if you look at everything that's come after that in terms of special forces, it all feeds back to what the British were doing back then. You can see the origins of it back then. So I think it must have been, whether it was the circumstances or whether it was something in the psyche, but there was definitely something British about it.

• 42:43Dan Snow?

  Something very odd going in those big public schools, that's all I can say, turning out some very strange people. But turns out that they were good for the time. It worked, it worked. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

• 42:58Speaker 04

  Huge pleasure, Dan.

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• 44:11Dan Snow?

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