Churchill's Secret Army

Trap doors under toilets, hidden radio rooms in the back of wardrobes, secret bases behind waterfalls.... Dan investigates an extraordinary network of secret resistance cells set up during Britain's "darkest hour". In the summer of 1940, Britain and its empire stood alone as the Nazi war machine stormed through Europe. Prime Minister Winston Churchill created something extraordinary: secret factions of men and women trained to wreak havoc behind the lines of an invading army. Dan once again joins forces with Andy Chatterton from the Coleshill Auxiliary Research Team, who are unearthing this incredible part of World War Two for another bunker hunt. What they find on this adventure is truly extraordinary. You can learn more about Britain's secret resistance in Andy's book 'Fortress Britain 1940: Britain's Unsung and Secret Defences on Land, Sea and in the Air'. With thanks to Chris Hale, Nina, Will and Martyn from CART, Andy Aust and Duncan Akers. Produced by Mariana Des Forges and edited by Dougal Patmore. You can watch our video documentary on Churchill's Secret Army! Sign up here to watch: https://access.historyhit.com/videos/churchills-secret-army You can also email the podcast directly at [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. We need your help! Let us know what you want from Dan Snow's History Hit by filling in our anonymous survey here: https://forms.gle/PvgayWLkWGjYT4St6 Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Dan Snow?

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• 0:32Speaker 01

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the 3rd century? I'm Misha Glennie and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 0:47Speaker 02

  It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 0:56Speaker 01

  In Our Time, listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Tea or coffee? Love a cup of tea.

• 1:13Dan Snow?

  Hi everybody, welcome to Dan Snow's History Hit. Now, if you're a long time listener to this podcast, and why wouldn't you be? You may remember that back in the summer of 2023, my producer Yana and I went in search of hidden World War II bunkers in the New Forest, near where I live. Well, these bunkers are so exciting, they were set up in preparation for a German invasion. So, local British men would hide down those bunkers. Once that invasion had taken place, they would lie in wait for the Germans. They would then emerge at night and carry out acts of ambush and sabotage and assassination to try and disrupt that German invasion.

• 1:57Dan Snow?

  They were called auxiliary units and the men who served in them were Britain's unassuming, silent assassins. And in the vast majority of cases, they took the secret of that service to their grave. And that meant they also took the secret of the location of most of these bunkers to their graves. So now hundreds of those bunkers lie hidden along Britain's coastlines, particularly here in the south. It's difficult to say how many of them still exist. No maps ever made marking the location. As I said, the auxiliary units were sworn to total secrecy. So it's only now, 80 years later, as people, well, literally stumble across, sometimes fall into these bunkers as they cave in,

• 2:41Dan Snow?

  that we can build a better picture of Britain's deadly defensive network. A year and a half ago, we were scouring the New Forest. We got that tantalizing tip-off that a local man said he'd come across one of these bunkers as a child, he was playing with his friends in the forest. But we made only a very minor discovery. So listen, I accept that single wire may not have been the most exciting thing in the world. Well, friends, there's been a development in the story. Since that podcast came out, we have received another tip-off. News of another bunker that's been discovered way down in the South West. So that's where I've come now. I'm just walking along that coast. You hear the waves crashing the pebbles beneath my feet.

• 3:25Dan Snow?

  I can't tell exactly where I am sadly because we're going to keep this location a secret. But the History Hit team has assembled and we're on the way there now. And what makes this mission so particularly special is that we're going to be joined by, most probably, the last surviving member of any auxiliary unit, Ken Welch. And by extraordinary coincidence, Ken served in this bunker as a teenager with his dad. He too was sworn to absolute secrecy and he never told a soul about it until the last couple of years. He's now 98 years old and he's going to be joining me as we go in search of his former bunker,

• 4:07Dan Snow?

  which he has not been back to for 80 years since the war. Of course, our guide is the brilliant historian, Andy Chatterton, who's an expert on British wartime resistance. If you're new to this podcast or you need a refresher, then don't worry. We're going to cover the history of the auxiliary units again and we're going to be giving you the lowdown on Hitler's planned invasion of Britain as you join us for another History Hit bunker hunt.

• 4:44Dan Snow?

  In the summer of 1940, the balance of the Second World War was firmly in Hitler's favour. In less than a year, the European order had been dismantled. Poland had been crushed in weeks, Denmark and Norway followed in the spring. Then came the biggest blow of all: the fall of France in June 1940. What made it so stunning was just the victory, but how fast it had happened. German forces used what is commonly known as blitzkrieg, an innovative form of lightning warfare, combining tanks, aircraft, artillery, infantry, radios, and speed.

• 5:29Dan Snow?

  The supposedly impregnable defences of the Maginot Line were bypassed, and in just six weeks, mighty France had been humbled.

• 5:42Dan Snow?

  Meanwhile, the British Expeditionary Force, fighting alongside the French, had barely escaped from Europe during the Dunkirk evacuation. It was a miracle of survival, but it couldn't disguise a strategic disaster. Britain's army had been humiliated, most of its heavy equipment had been lost. It seemed very possible that a German invasion of Britain was imminent.

• 6:14Dan Snow?

  All right, Andy, summer of 1940. The big headline is shocking, mind-blowing collapse of Allied forces in Western Europe. The Brits, the French, totally defeated in the Battle of France. That came as a surprise.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, a massive surprise. If you think at the start of the Second World War, the French army is the largest and most mechanised army in the world, and they've just been beaten in six weeks. Destroyed. And we can look back in hindsight and say whatever we like about the German invasion or the likelihood of a German invasion of Britain, but at that point... It was an absolute shock and the German army seemed unstoppable.

• 6:53Dan Snow?

  And had the British government made any plans for defending the home island before that disaster?

• 7:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it had started. In the years kind of running up to the Second World War, there was a slight ponderance around actually is attack the best form of defence. So larger amounts of battalions went out to France because that was the feeling that actually attack is the best form of defence. But that's not to say that regulars weren't still in Britain. And after the fall of France, basically with all our mobility basically left on the beaches or most of it.

• 7:24Dan Snow?

  Yeah, so all the tanks and vehicles and trucks, everything's just left in France.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  Exactly right. Suddenly, we have to think about how do we defend Britain without such mobility. So General Ironside, the CNC of home forces, constructed in a matter of weeks this whole, that we still see in our landscape today, pillboxes and stoplines and anti-tank teeth and anti-tank ditches. This huge amounts of concrete that come into our landscape.

• 7:51Dan Snow?

  In fact, Andy, I mean, this is almost like it was planned, but we are now about 30 metres due south of a concrete pillbox.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, there it is.

• 8:00Dan Snow?

  It's overgrown, it looks like it's in someone's private garden, it's overgrown with ivy and it's got long grass going on the roof. But yeah, that is not an uncommon feature. People listening to this abroad, it's quite normal to see that along, particularly the British south and east coasts, like where we are now, Devon. This feature in pretty good for amphibians, wouldn't it?

• 8:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, would have been, would have been, yeah.

• 8:18Dan Snow?

  Perfect, perfect beach.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  And actually, when we see pillboxes like that one, I think it in many ways kind of reinforces our perception of Britain at that time. It's isolated, concrete boxes that look a bit rubbish, if I'm being honest.

• 8:35Dan Snow?

  Yeah, German armoured division lands here, I don't know how long that's going to last.

• 8:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, exactly, exactly. But seeing it in a wartime setting, seeing it connected up with the other pillboxes in the area, seeing the slit trenches around it, seeing the fact that it's camouflaged. And seeing the fact there's part of a stop line that's pushing the invading German army in the direction we want them to go, means that then we can use the limited mobility that we've got much more effectively. The Germans will always go in there with the least part of the resistance. So by pushing them around the pillboxes, by pushing them around the tiger's teeth, we can much better utilise the limited amounts of tanks and vehicles that we have to more effectively counter-attack.

• 9:14Dan Snow?

  Right, so actually the governments and the military have really got a grip on this. They're playing for the Germans landing on these shores, what to do. Gosh, there's a plan, which is fight them here on the beaches, but then if they do get inland, to sort of funnel them, channel them into places where you can ambush them, kill them, use the high ground.

• 9:30Speaker 03

  Exactly right, exactly right. And Einstein at the time got a large amount of criticism, and continues today, but actually, I think he was utilising the resources he had at that point really well, really well. And it's almost like an Iron Age hill fight, where the defences channel the attackers in the direction where you want them to go, and therefore you know where they're going up, and therefore you can attack them in the place you're happy to.

• 9:50Dan Snow?

  And a bit like the trench warfare, that generation of officers would have known so well. You use the barbed wire, you leave sort of gaps here and there, and then they're very well covered with artillery and mortars and machine guns. So it's like you create killing zones.

• 10:00Speaker 03

  Exactly right, exactly right. So that, yeah, as you say, the whole of the South is covered in these concrete boxes, which, as I said, look pretty rubbish, but actually would have been a really effective way of stopping them.

• 10:10Dan Snow?

  Andy, that's what's going on here in Britain. What's going on just over there on the other side of the channel? What preparations is Hitler making?

• 10:16Speaker 03

  It's an interesting question, because the fall of France has happened, Germany is uproarously happy, it's gone far better than they could ever, ever have expected. And then suddenly they have this challenge of the channel, of the moats that we've got. And Hitler's plan isn't just one plan, and this is the trouble. He asked the navy, the air force and the army to come up with their own separate plans. Each one is slightly contradictory to the other. Göring's ultimately confident that he can destroy the Royal Air Force to give them air superiority. He doesn't think that's going to be a problem. He's kind of seen the Battle of France, and to an extent the RAF did struggle, and the effectiveness of the Stuka, the dive bomber plane. I mean, Göring's a confident guy anyway,

• 11:00Speaker 03

  right? But now, after France, he is super confident. He didn't think the RAF stands a chance.

• 11:05Dan Snow?

  So the Air Force are telling Hitler, "We don't even need to invade, we're gonna knock the RAF out, then we're gonna bomb Britain to its knees, they'll have to make peace."

• 11:12Speaker 03

  Exactly right.

• 11:12Dan Snow?

  But the Army and the Navy, what are they up to?

• 11:14Speaker 03

  Well, the Navy wants quite a narrow invasion period because they realise that the Royal Navy is the largest and strongest navy in the world. And so they want a narrow window to operate in. The Army wants a wide window to operate in because they don't want to be stuck in a narrow zone where the British Army can concentrate the counter-attack. So immediately, there's a real issue with the invasion plans because everyone has different objectives, have different plans. And it goes for Hitler's whole approach throughout the war is to not give one general or one armed force the superiority. And that's exactly demonstrated in his plans for the invasion.

• 11:55Dan Snow?

  So the Navy, wait for a day like this, we're on this beach, it's a beautiful day, the sun's out, the sea is flat. So the Navy wanna kind of dash across on a narrow front and just try and land as many troops as they can before the Royal Navy comes.

• 12:07Speaker 03

  That's exactly right, yeah.

• 12:08Dan Snow?

  But the Army, I guess, they what, so they wanna land, keep the British guessing? They wanna land from anywhere from the Isle of Wight to Dover and...

• 12:14Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 12:14Dan Snow?

  Wow, okay.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  Exactly, because they're more dispersed and they know where they're coming and we don't. The British don't know where they're coming, so we're gonna have to disperse our limited reserves. And we got 300,000-odd troops back from Dunkirk, but they're still recovering frankly, and the whole of the German military forces incredibly confident this could happen. Perhaps apart from the Navy, who see the reality of what the Royal Navy is capable of.

• 12:39Dan Snow?

  So Hitler's invasion plans fraught with difficulties and contradictions right from the beginning.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, and they were getting in thousands of river barges that were gonna transport the troops across, either to be tugged across or with their own engine. And, you know, if you're in a flat-bottomed river barge going across the Channel, it's...

• 12:57Dan Snow?

  Yeah, I think people could think about it as a sort of canal boat, almost.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly, exactly right.

• 13:00Dan Snow?

  It's bonkers.

• 13:01Speaker 03

  It's absolutely bonkers.

• 13:02Dan Snow?

  Ironically, it'd be all right in a day like this.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  It would be.

• 13:04Dan Snow?

  Not many of these days on the Channel are there.

• 13:05Speaker 03

  No, there are not, there are not.

• 13:07Dan Snow?

  So that's why the Battle of Britain matters, because if you're gonna take all these canal boats, these barges, across the Channel in the teeth of opposition by the Royal Navy, you need to have total control of the air so your planes can help your fragile naval forces to beat off the British.

• 13:21Speaker 03

  Exactly right. You're already at a disadvantage, you don't need your enemy to have superiority in the air as well.

• 13:27Dan Snow?

  And so winning superiority in the air is a necessary precondition for any S invasion start?

• 13:32Speaker 03

  It absolutely is, because we saw in Dunkirk, actually hitting boats from the air is quite difficult. But if you're trundling along in a barge and you see a British plane overhead, you know you're pretty much done for. So yeah, absolutely, air superiority is a must. But Goering's supremely confident that's going to happen.

• 13:49Dan Snow?

  And that's the point about the Battle of Britain. Britain defeats that German attempt to win control of the skies. So that's why the invasion could never take place, because they haven't got that precondition.

• 13:58Speaker 03

  That's exactly right. And frankly, the German navy was never really very confident that it was achievable anyway. So it's very easy for us to look back in hindsight and say, Operation Sea Lion was a complete washout. It was never going to work. At the time, the German army had just sped through Europe. They seemed capable of anything. So all the defences we put in place, all the thinking that we had to do, the bravery of the airmen, the bravery of the guys in the pillboxes around us, it shouldn't be misunderstood. The German army had just sped through Western Europe and they looked unstoppable. So we had to prepare for the worst outcome.

• 14:42Dan Snow?

  There's such a powerful perception that Britain in those early days of World War II was ill-prepared for an invasion. We imagine that protecting Britain's coastlines was a bumbling army of part-timers, a dad's army, manning a handful of little concrete boxes. But that's simply not the reality. By mid-1940, a formidable nationwide resistance network was already in place. Within that network was an important organisation called the Auxiliary Units. Thousands of men, ready to take to secret underground bunkers in the event of an invasion, ready to emerge and sabotage the enemy advance.

• 15:27Dan Snow?

  This was Churchill's secret army.

• 15:36Dan Snow?

  So Andy, what are these bunkers that we're looking for?

• 15:38Speaker 03

  They are being used by this group called the Auxiliary Units, whose role is to disappear to these bunkers as soon as the Germans come into their area, leave their families, who have no idea what they're up to, and disappear to these bunkers and then come out at night and disrupt the supply chain. This isn't about taking on the German army face to face, this is about causing as much chaos at night to slow down that German advance.

• 16:00Dan Snow?

  Sabotage, assassination, ambush?

• 16:02Speaker 03

  Exactly, all of those things. Anything that's going to take the Germans to take a step backwards, to pause, to allow our regular troops to have more time to recover and counter-attack.

• 16:11Dan Snow?

  Is this a pre-war thing, or is it suddenly getting stood up in a bit of a panic as Britain faced invasion in the summer of 1940?

• 16:16Speaker 03

  It has its roots in pre-war, it has its roots in two pre-war organisations, one set up by MI6, one set up by the British military. By kind of May, just around Dunkirk, it's kind of up and running and being recruited very, very quickly across the countries in these kind of key vulnerable counties.

• 16:34Dan Snow?

  That German invasion doesn't come, but this organisation remains? They continue what they're training and preparing?

• 16:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, training locally, obviously training to gain access to the targets that they would try and hit as the Germans came through. They use the British Army as practice, which the regular troops did not enjoy because they were so often shown up as not being very good at guarding airfields or country houses. And also train at the Auxiliary Units headquarters in a place called Colehill House, up near Highworth, near Swindon. And there they would go and train for a weekend, again not being able to tell their wives and family where they're going, but nonetheless, go up there, train and learn everything they need to know. So going across fields at night, where to place explosives on German tanks and planes, how to take out a sentry silently with a knife, all the stuff that you need to know to be effective.

• 17:19Dan Snow?

  And these are men who are still doing their day jobs?

• 17:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely, and quite tough day jobs. I mean, lots of them are farmers and quarrymen and miners, so during the day, just carrying on as normal, and then at night and weekends, training to a really high standard in terms of their guerrilla saboteur roles. And they would live their normal lives right up until the point the Germans entered their town. So if we're in Devon, for example, and the German invasion is taking place in the South East, the guys in Devon would not come operational until the Germans are almost on the boundary of their town or village.

• 17:49Dan Snow?

  Nobody could know.

• 17:51Speaker 03

  Nobody could, no, not their their closest family and friends. And anyone who did happen to come across their operational base or ask too many questions would have to be added to a list of people that have to be assassinated as soon as the Germans came in. Because their window of operation is so short, it's perceived to be around two weeks, they had enough rations for two weeks, that anything that had the potential to shorten that time, they had to deal with immediately. So it sounds overly brutal, but actually, you know, looking at that bigger picture, if Britain had fallen, that's essentially it. A lot of the auxiliary unit members we've spoken to over the years kind of understood that bigger picture, that the sacrifice that they would have to make, their communities unknowingly would have to make, would have been worth it for the bigger picture.

• 18:32Dan Snow?

  It's estimated that there were up to 500 auxiliary units along Britain's coastal counties, hiding in plain sight in tight-knit communities. As I mentioned earlier, the only known living survivor of an auxiliary unit is a man named Ken Welch. He's down in Cornwall, and as part of our mission to find a bunker that, well, still resembles a bunker, we're taking Ken. We're going to try and find the one he was stationed at with his father 80 years ago. One that he hasn't been back to since.

• 19:08Dan Snow?

  Hello.

• 19:09Speaker 04

  Hello.

• 19:09Dan Snow?

  Now, you can't be Ken.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  I'm Ken.

• 19:11Dan Snow?

  You don't look old enough.

• 19:13Speaker 04

  I'm not.

• 19:13Dan Snow?

  What are you talking about?

• 19:14Speaker 04

  I'm only 25.

• 19:15Dan Snow?

  Oh, exactly, you look 25. Nice to meet you. I'm Dan.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  Same to you.

• 19:19Dan Snow?

  Let me take my shoes off.

• 19:20Speaker 04

  Oh, you don't have to do that.

• 19:22Dan Snow?

  Well, we've...

• 19:22Speaker 04

  Just wipe them.

• 19:23Dan Snow?

  Are you sure? Okay, yeah, we're all right.

• 19:25Speaker 04

  Please, don't even offer it.

• 19:30Dan Snow?

  Ken, you were a young boy. Do you remember the war starting?

• 19:33Speaker 04

  Yes, I do. I was sitting on a chair in my grandmother's kitchen. I think it was a Sunday morning, and 11 o'clock, and I heard the Chamberlain declare a war with Germany.

• 19:45Dan Snow?

  And talk to me about your dad, because he did a job that you probably didn't know about initially.

• 19:51Speaker 04

  Oh, yes, he worked in a quarry, taking out big lumps of granite for making monuments and stuff like that. And then the war came along, and somehow he got into this auxiliary unit business.

• 20:04Dan Snow?

  You didn't know about that?

• 20:05Speaker 04

  No, I didn't know what was happening.

• 20:08Dan Snow?

  So he would go to work all day?

• 20:10Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 20:10Dan Snow?

  And then, but he'd be off during the night doing his, well, you didn't know what he was doing?

• 20:14Speaker 04

  No, I didn't know where he was going. All I knew was he would come home with a tommy gun and bits and pieces like that. I was sixteen then, but I was only a month off seventeen and so I said to him a bit, why? Can I have a go at that? So they arranged for me to, I put my age on for a year.

• 20:32Dan Snow?

  So your dad let you join the unit?

• 20:34Speaker 04

  Yes, he let me join, yes, yeah. I suppose he thought he could take care of me somehow.

• 20:39Dan Snow?

  But you must have been an exceptional teenager because they didn't want any old kid hanging around with them.

• 20:43Speaker 04

  Well, I was full of life and very interested in stuff like that.

• 20:47Dan Snow?

  And did you know what you were joined? Do you think, well, I'm just joining the Home Guard, I'll just go and sign up?

• 20:53Speaker 04

  I knew it wasn't the Home Guard proper, but I just thought I was joining a kind of Home Guard, a secret sort of thing, which I was very excited about. But I never considered the consequences if we were invaded. What happened was if we were invaded, we would go to the operation base. We had a fortnight's supplies there, stuff like that. And we would go out at night, we wouldn't go out during the day, we'd go out at night and do as much damage as possible. We would have had made Penrith Viaduct unusable in case we were invaded. You know, that sort of stuff. We had to do as much damage to delay the enemy as possible.

• 21:35Dan Snow?

  So you're a member of this crew and you did the training. You had to explode, demolition, explosives?

• 21:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's right.

• 21:40Dan Snow?

  Assassination, what, small homes?

• 21:42Speaker 04

  Yes, we used to go to Swindon for training for a weekend once in a while. I went up to Swindon. I remember going up, it was in November time and it was very cold.

• 21:56Speaker 04

  And we were in these big half-ramped huts and there was two tortoise fires in them. And we got there one each end, both red hot, they were, I remember. And we had our meals with the officers, they were treated like officers.

• 22:13Speaker 04

  And we went out training at night, crawling around the fields. We had a bit of fun up there.

• 22:18Dan Snow?

  And was it fun being alongside your dad?

• 22:20Speaker 04

  Yes, we got on very well, father and I, yeah.

• 22:24Dan Snow?

  And what about the secrecy? Did you have to discuss killing people if they found out where the base was and things like that?

• 22:30Speaker 04

  We had to sign a secret document, you know, to swear the secrecy. There was a cottage, a couple of people lived in the cottage that could see, and not the entrance, but the gateway to where our old B was. And of course, they would see us going in and out, every Saturday or Sunday. And of course, if we were invaded, then the Germans would get hold of them and torture them to find out what they knew.

• 23:00Speaker 04

  So if we were invaded, somebody would have had to have gone and said goodbye to those. They would have had to have been shot, I'm afraid. Terrible situation. I don't know who would have done it. They might have drawn straws to to find the one that would go and do it.

• 23:15Dan Snow?

  So those are the kind of conversations you were having, planning for the invasion, right down to killing this old couple?

• 23:21Speaker 04

  Yes, well, yes, that's right. And if anything happened, if we were invaded and anything happened to me, if I were injured in any way, then I would have had to have been shot, because they would have tortured me, questioned me if I was captured, you see?

• 23:39Dan Snow?

  Wow.

• 23:39Speaker 04

  That was the situation. It was a scary situation. I never realised how scary it was.

• 23:46Dan Snow?

  I bet it was more scary for your dad.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Yes, yes.

• 23:49Dan Snow?

  Imagine being on the unit where they have to shoot his own son.

• 23:52Speaker 04

  Yes, that would have been the situation.

• 23:56Dan Snow?

  What do you remember of the bunker?

• 23:58Speaker 04

  I just remember going up there and spending a weekend and and stuff like that, just to see how we got on over for a couple of nights. There was a front entrance, of course, and then there was a way out the back. We had a little ladder to climb up to grab the back. And after we got out the back, we just have to hope there's nobody out there to see us coming out, but we had to take our chance on that, I suppose.

• 24:26Dan Snow?

  So Ken, it's very exciting. We're going to try and find the old bunker today, are we?

• 24:29Speaker 04

  I think so. Going to see what it is.

• 24:31Dan Snow?

  Surely you'll be like a salmon returning to where it was spawned. You'll have a homing beacon standing right there.

• 24:37Speaker 04

  Yes, yes, it's rather a long time since I returned home. And prodigal son is why it's concerned, I think.

• 24:45Dan Snow?

  Yeah, so what, eighty years or something?

• 24:47Speaker 04

  Well, yes, it is, I suppose, yes. It was nineteen forty-four till now. Yeah, that's right.

• 24:56Dan Snow?

  This is Dan Snow's History here. More after this.

• 25:03Dan Snow?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. I never thought about the history of coffee. You make it, you drink it, nothing more to it. Then I've had a TikTok video about how people in the seventeen hundreds would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it. I love that sort of discovery, a detail, but suddenly you're imagining how people lived and drank and socialized. Now I wonder what will baffle historians about us: mugs. It's a ceramic vessel, but crucially, it has a handle. Well, that's the joy of TikTok, folks. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different. Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Learn more at tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 25:45Dan Snow?

  This episode is brought to you by Decagon. If you've ever been trapped in phone tree hell, pushing zero fifty times while a voice robot pretends not to hear you, you know true psychological warfare. It's brutal, folks. Thankfully, that kind of horror is now confined to the history books. Customer service has evolved. Decagon helps companies create personalized, concierge-style customer experiences with AI agents across chat, email, voice, and SMS. They're available 24/7, feel natural to talk to, and can resolve customer requests on their own, so businesses can keep up with requests without losing their personal touch. Plus, because workflows can be updated using natural language. Teams can make changes themselves.

• 26:28Dan Snow?

  Decagon gives your team full visibility into why agents make decisions and what's happening across every conversation, helping to power millions of conversations every day. Ready to transform your customer support? Go to decagon.ai/dansnow to see what Decagon can do for your team. That's decagon.ai/dansnow. Check Decagon out at decagon.ai/dansnow.

• 26:58Speaker 05

  In a world where swords were sharp.

• 27:01Speaker 06

  And hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is. Two fearless historians.

• 27:06Speaker 05

  Me, Matt Lewis.

• 27:08Speaker 06

  And me, Dr Eleanor Yanaga, dive headfirst into the mud, blood, and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.

• 27:15Speaker 05

  So for plagues, crusades, and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts.

• 27:34Dan Snow?

  Andrew Chatterton, what are these bunkers like?

• 27:37Speaker 03

  They are the most remarkable structures. They are underground. Essentially, they're a bit like a big Anderson shelter, but a lot more complicated and a lot more cool. So as you're walking along, you will find, as an auxiliary, a hatch, a hatch of some form that's flush to the ground, heavily disguised. And the way into the hatch can be done in various forms. So it might be that you stamp on it and it comes up in a counterweight system and swivels around and lets you in. It might be that you pull what looks like a tree root and that will either activate the counterweight system or it'll ring a bell in the bunker and the other guys can let you in.

• 28:10Dan Snow?

  Oof, that's cool.

• 28:10Speaker 03

  Or you have like different coloured, each member of the patrol has a different coloured marble. And then you roll it down what looks like a mouse hole. Goes underground, rattles about in a tin, and then they let you in.

• 28:19Dan Snow?

  Don't be silly.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. So once you're in, you'll find a ladder going down maybe kind of 12, 15 feet into a shaft, almost like a chimney. Go down to the bottom. Quite often you're confronted at the bottom with a blast wall. So that's there to, if the Germans happen to get into the hatch and drop a grenade down, it protects the main chamber from the blast. You weave your way around the blast wall and then you're into the main chamber. So the main chamber is where the guys would have been during the day. Bunks there to sleep, tables, food, equipment. Occasionally there's a kitchen, which isn't ideal for kind of keeping secrets. So they would funnel the chimney up a hollow tree and the smoke would disperse at the top of the tree line so it wouldn't kind of go through the forest to give the Germans a clue. There's quite often a pretty horrific Elson Chemical toilet,

• 29:02Speaker 03

  which after two weeks of nervous men constantly using it would be pretty grim. They used to store their explosives mainly away from the place that you're staying in, which that's just good thinking. So there'd be an explosive store just down the road a little bit. And then into an escape tunnel, which can lead kind of 60 to 100 foot away. That often goes into a water source to kind of aid in your escape. But essentially, most of the patrols knew that if the Germans were at your entry hatch, you're pretty much done for. So some didn't even bother with an escape tunnel at all.

• 29:30Dan Snow?

  So how do you even go about looking for these needles in a haystack? Are they all over the UK?

• 29:34Speaker 03

  They are almost exclusively in coastal counties. So if you think from the Orkneys at the top of Britain, kind of down the north east coast.

• 29:41Dan Snow?

  Wow, all the way up.

• 29:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, east coast, south east corner, south coast, southwest and south Wales. There's not much on the west side of the UK because they didn't see there was a perceived threat from the Irish side.

• 29:50Dan Snow?

  And they're set in from the coast a bit?

• 29:52Speaker 03

  They tend to be set in kind of five to six miles inland because they don't want to be caught up in any initial wave of invasion. And then they're in areas where there's a key target as well. So it might be near a key road or a key bridge or near an airfield that Luftwaffe might take over, a key manor house that the Germans might take as a local HQ. In some cases, near the house of a prominent member of the British Union of Fascists, who would have been seen as a collaborator and would have been assassinated immediately as well. So tend to be five to six miles inland, near key targets, incredibly well disguised.

• 30:24Dan Snow?

  So have you developed a bit of a nose for it? Do you just walk across a landscape and think, "Oh, I reckon there should be one around here"?

• 30:29Speaker 03

  You do, you do get a weird feel for it because you kind of see, well, actually that's a good escape route down there, there's a river down there, there's a good target there. You do get a feel for it. And what we do have is that in about 1943, a list of all of those who are currently serving in the auxiliary units in 43 were put together with their addresses. So as researchers... All we have to play with is, well, actually, these guys all seem to live near each other. That's probably one patrol. Then you look at, well, actually, there's a good target there. Oh, and there's a forest there. That's likely where the OB is. You know, if it's intact, you could be walking around that forest for weeks without finding it. But, yeah, it's a, it'd be too easy.

• 31:04Dan Snow?

  Well, you and I've got previous there, buddy. Tearing around the neat forest.

• 31:10Dan Snow?

  We arrive on top of a tree-covered bank overlooking an old quarry. Among the scrub is a square manhole, like one that you'd find in the street.

• 31:23Dan Snow?

  But going down through the rock, once you look inside, you see a vertical tunnel with a rudimentary ladder fixed into the wall, just as Ken said. Ken, how are you feeling?

• 31:36Speaker 04

  Well, not too bad, not too bad at all. Whoever discovered this place again must have had some hell of a job getting into it.

• 31:46Dan Snow?

  It goes down into an open chamber cut into the granite. It's not exactly an easy way in for an older gentleman, but luckily a better route has been found by the local historians Chris Hale and Gareth Wynn, who recently rediscovered this bunker and have joined us on this expedition. Ken, do you want an arm up this slope? Do you want an arm?

• 32:06Speaker 04

  I can hang on to this.

• 32:07Dan Snow?

  Okay, okay, let's do it. Okay. All right, let's come on up. We go round the bank and are faced with a muddy incline that goes up to a small hole in the side of the rock face. What do you think, Andy? Feel good?

• 32:19Speaker 03

  Feels good. Well, I can see wiggly tin already, which is, which is a good sign. Always a good sign.

• 32:24Dan Snow?

  Look at this, Ken. You truly have no idea anything of note was here if you weren't already in the know. We're coming to something up here. We make our way up cautiously with Ken, climbing over fallen trees and jutting out roots.

• 32:36Speaker 03

  Have a rest there, Ken, and see.

• 32:38Dan Snow?

  Just, yeah, have a, have a pause there.

• 32:39Speaker 04

  Yes, thank you.

• 32:41Dan Snow?

  What do you make of this, eh?

• 32:43Speaker 04

  Yes, I seem to remember that. That doorway looked bigger than it is.

• 32:48Speaker 03

  Yeah, so we think this was probably the escape tunnel. So we think it, dog, the dog legs out that way.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  It was out the other end.

• 32:55Speaker 03

  Do you think? Do you think?

• 32:57Dan Snow?

  What's it like, what's it like being back here after 80 years, Ken? Surprised?

• 33:01Speaker 04

  Yeah, I'm surprised. Didn't think I'd ever see this again.

• 33:05Speaker 03

  When was the last time you came? What did you think? October, November, 44? Something like that? Yeah.

• 33:10Dan Snow?

  The Second World War was still raging when you were last here.

• 33:13Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 33:14Speaker 03

  Try him.

• 33:15Dan Snow?

  What do you think, should we try and, you wanna try and get inside, Ken?

• 33:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, have a go.

• 33:19Dan Snow?

  Eventually, we make it inside.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  That's it, watch your head.

• 33:23Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  We're in.

• 33:24Dan Snow?

  What do you think of this place then, does it look familiar?

• 33:27Speaker 04

  This is a good gosh.

• 33:29Speaker 03

  So what was in this section here, was this where the beds were?

• 33:32Speaker 04

  Yeah, I remember it. I thought it was wider than this, but it isn't. I think they did, um, made tea and stuff back there on the steps.

• 33:40Speaker 03

  Was that right? Was that the tea making facilities? Critical.

• 33:43Speaker 04

  So you didn't have a cup of tea, I was much able to stand up easier than I can now.

• 33:51Speaker 03

  So from here, you would have been based here for a fortnight, and you would be going out every night. I can't believe that it would be seven to eight men cramped in here.

• 33:59Speaker 04

  Seven.

• 34:00Speaker 03

  Seven men cramped in here was, it's not a lot of space, is it? So, Ken, so you would come in, and in here, in forty-three, forty-four, what would we have seen in this structure? Would we have seen bunks either side?

• 34:13Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course we would have seen some bunks on, on each side. I think there was three, three bunks, I think, all the way down, down to the bottom. Never had much room in the middle, I suppose, I can remember.

• 34:24Speaker 03

  No.

• 34:25Speaker 04

  Like I say, we used to have a cup of tea, but we used to make them on the steps, I think.

• 34:29Speaker 03

  Right.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  At a primer stove, you know, in those days.

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 34:33Speaker 04

  Never had the modern ones like today.

• 34:35Speaker 03

  No. And what was the lighting, what did you use for lighting?

• 34:39Speaker 04

  Candles.

• 34:40Speaker 03

  Candles, just candles.

• 34:41Dan Snow?

  And would you leave weapons in here?

• 34:43Speaker 04

  No weapons, we took our weapons home.

• 34:45Dan Snow?

  Oh, you took them home?

• 34:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. The, the explosives and stuff were stored here.

• 34:50Dan Snow?

  You kept all the explosives here?

• 34:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it was down there at the entrance, just as you come in, in there in that space.

• 34:57Dan Snow?

  Oh, there, yeah?

• 34:58Speaker 04

  I think.

• 34:58Dan Snow?

  Must have been very relaxing, sleeping, sleeping with your head next to all those explosives.

• 35:03Speaker 03

  With candles about, yeah? Smoking.

• 35:06Dan Snow?

  So how is this different to other ones you've been to?

• 35:09Speaker 03

  Well, this is slightly different because they've made use of the quarry surroundings. And obviously, quite a few of them worked in the quarry. So we're quite used to handling explosives and digging out. And this is what this one really is. Usually, they're in a forest or a copse or something like that. So this is a little bit different. But it does give you that impression of just how grim it would have been. Seven men in here for a fortnight, under real pressure, in here during the day. No real light, just really, really grim stuff.

• 35:34Dan Snow?

  Yeah, I mean, yesterday it poured with rain. As a result, in here it's pretty damp today. So it would have been grim potentially.

• 35:40Speaker 03

  Really, really grim. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, imagine trying to get some sleep. And it's so important for them to get sleep during the day. Because you're coming out every night to go on a mission, to go and blow up a convoy, to go and assassinate someone. So you needed that rest. But gaining rest in here must have been really difficult.

• 35:55Dan Snow?

  Imagine if the enemy had invaded.

• 35:56Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 35:57Dan Snow?

  And this would have been your...

• 35:58Speaker 04

  Home for two weeks.

• 35:59Dan Snow?

  For two weeks.

• 36:00Speaker 04

  Yeah, or longer if you lived long enough. Their life expectancy was two weeks.

• 36:07Speaker 03

  Because your window of operation was so small, expected to be so small, just a fortnight, you had to go out every night to go and destroy something, to go and cause havoc. If the Germans came to Mabe, you and your dad would have disappeared. You would have come here.

• 36:21Speaker 04

  Would have come here.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  And your mum wouldn't have any clue where you've gone or what you're up to.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  No.

• 36:26Speaker 03

  You never told her.

• 36:26Speaker 04

  She never knew.

• 36:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 36:28Speaker 04

  I don't think she knew the day she died.

• 36:30Speaker 03

  Wow.

• 36:31Speaker 04

  Or even when she died, I don't think she knew.

• 36:33Dan Snow?

  And you're a teenager.

• 36:34Speaker 04

  Yes, I was a teenager, seventeen. Seventeen years old.

• 36:38Dan Snow?

  It must have been fun being with your dad.

• 36:39Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 36:40Dan Snow?

  I'd like to be with my son.

• 36:41Speaker 04

  Yes, I would much. He was good. He took care of me, no doubt about that. Wherever he went, he took me with him, like, you know. If he went out on exercise, crawling around the fields, I'd be with him.

• 36:53Dan Snow?

  And you must have been proud to be with your dad.

• 36:55Speaker 04

  Oh, I was quite happy, yes. Enjoyed it. Really enjoyed it in those days. My goodness me. Thank you for bringing me here. 1944, right? Eighty years.

• 37:06Dan Snow?

  There's something extraordinary about bringing someone back to a place like this. You can see it in their face. The moment the memories come back. Eighty years is a lifetime, and yet the bunker is still here, almost untouched really. For us, it's amazing to step inside a proper auxiliary bunker, the kind we'd have been so desperate to find on our last venture into this story. It really brought to life what it would have been like to be cramped inside, waiting for the sounds of the enemy overhead. But the auxiliary units were only one piece of a much bigger web of resistance, all ready to spring into action

• 37:48Dan Snow?

  in the face of an invasion. Through his groundbreaking research, Andy has recently discovered that there was yet another secret resistance faction, one ready to go even further had Britain been conquered by the Germans.

• 38:03Speaker 03

  So we researched the auxiliary units, which we know were very much on the coastal counties, on the vulnerable counties to invasion. But for years and years, we were getting information from all parts of the country, saying, oh, my granddad or my grandmother was definitely in New York's units. They were trained in unarmed combat, they were trained in explosives, they had hideouts where they were to come out and blow up, you know, German infrastructure. But this was coming from Leicestershire and Nottingham and Liverpool and all over the country, where we know absolutely there were no aux units, which was confusing to say the least. And then in 2010, the official history of MI6 came out by a chap called Keith Jeffrey. And in that book, there are about three paragraphs, unreferenced, about section seven. Now, section seven is a MI6,

• 38:47Speaker 03

  a SIS group, that was there purely as a post-occupation resistance. So after Britain had been defeated militarily, this group would have become active. And it's MI6, i.e. the Foreign Secret Service, rather than MI5, because of what they were doing in mainland Europe. They were taking what they'd learnt in mainland Europe and implementing it in the UK. And it was so secret, this group, that MI6 didn't tell MI5. They weren't very keen on the military knowing. And so all the members that they recruited, all signed official secrets acts. And as we'll go into, we know, less than 20, but has the potential, because this isn't just the coastal counties, it is the coastal counties, plus all of England, certainly, Wales, that's a huge amount of people potentially involved,

• 39:32Speaker 03

  possibly tens of thousands of people, who signed official secrets acts, and almost all of them went to the grave without telling anyone anything.

• 39:39Dan Snow?

  Who are the ones that you have managed to talk to and have they been willing to finally break their silence?

• 39:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's really interesting. So from the Keith Jeffrey official history thing, we know that there were three guys in SIS MI6 who were kind of leading this. There's a chap called Valentine Vivian, who was head of Section 5, which was counter espionage. There was a chap called Richard Gambier Parry, who was part of Section 8, which was the communications, so the wireless part of SIS, and also a really mysterious guy called David Boyle, who was head of, or part of, Section N, which was something to do with diplomatic mail. But these guys were in charge of the recruitment and training and the establishment of this resistance group. And they went around the country. So they started in six counties in July 1940, in Norfolk, Suffolk, Sussex, Somerset, Coolmore and Devon, where they

• 40:28Speaker 03

  did a trial of these wireless sets and they proved to be really successful. And then they recruited everywhere in the country. It's hard to imagine just how wide this network was. For example, we've got a chap who came forward in the early 2000s called Peter Atwater. Peter is a really good example of the type of people or children that SIS were recruiting for Section 7. Peter was 14 when he was recruited for Section 7. He was an ARP messenger and he was part of the Air Training Corps as well. And he lived in Matlock in Derbyshire. His role had the Germans occupied Matlock was initially as an observer. He was to walk around Matlock and gather information on the occupying forces.

• 41:13Speaker 03

  He would then take this back to his cell leader, a chap called Mr. Topless, who was a draper. At the back of Mr. Topless's draper shop was a fake cupboard. You go through the fake cupboard and the back is a room with a wireless set in. There are two female wireless operators called a Mrs. Key and a Miss Swan.

• 41:35Speaker 03

  He would then pass this information on to them. They would then radio this information about the occupying forces to either a unoccupied zone. So they thought that Britain would be like France, it'd be an occupied zone and an unoccupied zone, with Scotland's most likely to be the unoccupied zone, with some kind of petan vichy-like government in charge there. Or the information, because Richard Gambier-Perry was involved, the information from these wireless sets might have been powerful enough to eventually end up in Canada with some kind of government in exile. So his role was to do this. Incidentally, in the, under the table where the wireless set was, was a grenade with the pin stapled to the table. So if the Germans had somehow found out that

• 42:18Speaker 03

  this was a resistance cell, broken through and found Miss Swan and Miss Keith in the back room, they could have pulled the grenade very easily, thrown it over their shoulders, grabbed their wireless set and escaped to carry on. Because this is about long-term resistance. So the Auxiliary Units and Special DUCs Branch had that very set window to disrupt an invasion. This is much more like the French Resistance, where you can move, you have kind of portable wireless sets and move quickly and keep going for as long as possible. Peter also was responsible for finding a room or a building in which people on the run from the occupying forces could be passed on. So rather like the escape lines in France, in occupied Europe, where

• 43:00Speaker 03

  an Allied airman was shot down, if the resistance got hold of him, they would pass him on from house to house to house, from safe house to safe house, to try and get him back to neutral territory from where he can then make his way back to Britain. It looks like Section 7 were setting up an escape line for enemies of the occupying forces to try and get them out to an unoccupied zone, presumably Scotland or maybe Ireland. So that was being prepared. He had to meet other boys of his same age in Birmingham, I think they met. Each of these chaps were part of the escape line, so they knew who to pass them on to. So it looks like it was carrying up through the Midlands and up through north. And when they met, they had to talk or include a word in their conversation to ensure that they weren't being followed

• 43:44Speaker 03

  or that they weren't under duress. So what better subject to talk about than the weather? So Peter had to include the word ice in any conversation he had if he was meeting with one of these guys under occupation. And another thing Peter was, said that a bit later on, he was taught was, was how to be a sniper. So a 15 year old was being taught, and he used some very specific terminology here. He was, he was being taught, he said, by terrifying ex First World War NCOs how to be a sniper. Peter was 15, but as a father, that is a terrifying prospect. And his parents had no idea what he was up to.

• 44:23Dan Snow?

  You listen to Dan Snow's History Hit. Thank you, Val, and I'm Strassia. There's more coming.

• 44:32Speaker 05

  In a world where swords were sharp.

• 44:35Speaker 06

  And hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is. Two fearless historians.

• 44:41Speaker 05

  Me, Matt Lewis.

• 44:42Speaker 06

  And me, Dr Eleanor Yanaga, dive headfirst into the mud, blood, and very strange customs of the Middle Ages.

• 44:49Speaker 05

  So for plagues, crusades, and Viking raids, and plenty of other things that don't rhyme, subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts.

• 45:08Dan Snow?

  And it wasn't just young boys, it was girls as well.

• 45:10Speaker 03

  Correct, absolutely. And a lot of what Peter said there, you can take with a pinch of salt because it's one guy telling you. But then, as I wrote the book, families from Southampton and Leicestershire were telling me exactly the same stories about their grandfathers, in this case, being taught by terrifying NCOs, using very similar terminology. And then, just before I published, a family got in touch, whose grandfather, William Hughes, was a sharpshooter during the First World War. And he said in Liverpool, he was teaching resistors, and he used the word teenagers, in unarmed combat and how to be snipers in the tunnels underneath the Mersey. So suddenly, one man's story is then confirmed by multiple other independent stories across the country. But you're right, it wasn't just men and

• 45:54Speaker 03

  boys being recruited. And this is a key difference with Section 7 and SIS, that they were actively recruiting women in combat roles and teaching them how to use explosives, how to create Molotov cocktails, how to derail trains, and most importantly, how to become honey traps, how to use the garrote. And I know that you've had podcasts here talking about some Dutch women who were famous or infamous for their roles in dispatching German officers and German soldiers. Exactly the same as being done here in preparation for an occupation. So that's a fantastic example. A lady called Jennifer Lockley got in touch with us, saying that

• 46:34Speaker 03

  her mother was in the auxiliary units. We know, and that she was from near Leeds. So there's two things there. There's no women in the auxiliary units and there was no auxiliary units in Leeds. So we knew something was going on. So we talked to her about section seven. And then it seems that on her deathbed, her mother Irene called her in and said, I've got something to tell you. Jennifer thought she was going to be told that she was adopted or something. But actually, her mother said that she was part of a secret resistance cell in a village near Leeds. She was in a cell with her father, her uncle, and her two cousins. And they're based in a cave. And she was taught how to use, as I said, Molotov cocktails, how to use the garrote, how to derail trains, how to make the occupying

• 47:17Speaker 03

  forces lie as an absolute nightmare. Now, her daughter Jennifer thought she might be losing it a bit in her final days. But then when we started talking to her about section seven, some stories from her childhood started to make sense. So for example, she remembers in the in the 50s, standing in a hallway as a pots and pans salesman had come to the door, and her mother had opened the door and the salesman was quite aggressive in his sales patter, and put his foot in the door to stop Irene shutting it. The next thing that Jennifer remembers is the pots and pans salesman sailing through the air, the pots and pans tumbling everywhere, because now she can see that her mother had performed like an unarmed combat move on this guy. And That is amazing. I know, I know. And Jennifer's saying so out of character for her mother. This

• 48:01Speaker 03

  memory has just stuck with her because, you know, her mother was a, wouldn't say boot to a goose type of lady. And but suddenly this chap was flying through the air. And the whole point of SIS recruiting women is basically the mistake that the pots and pans salesman had made, that he does not suspect a shy retiring housewife to be able to do that. And that's exactly why they recruited people like Jennifer. They also recruited a lady called Priscilla Ross from Hornchurch. Now, Priscilla said that very similar things to Jennifer, and obviously in a very separate part of the country, Hornchurch in Essex. She was taught how to make Molotov cocktails, how to garrote, how to derail trains, how to assassinate German officers. Her base was under a church in Hornchurch with a tombstone that if you moved the top,

• 48:46Speaker 03

  kind of swiveled over and revealed an entrance underneath the church. So I've been in touch with the church in Hornchurch and had, from their perspective, a weird conversation about whether they had any moving tombstones in their graveyard, which they did not. But they did say that they'd just found a space under the church, which they had not known about, and they couldn't find an entrance. So, so something else for us maybe to go and look at.

• 49:12Dan Snow?

  Buddy, yeah, we're going, we're going to Hornchurch, no question about that. So what you're saying is here, there was, there is a network, people still living among us today because they were young, they were boys and girls, who are trained killers, saboteurs and resistors. And because they never got, the balloon never went up, they never got the call, they just went and lived the rest of their lives and never told a soul.

• 49:38Speaker 03

  Correct, absolutely. So for example, Peter Atwater and Matlock knew of two other cells near him and Matlock. So potentially this could be absolutely huge and, and they didn't really even know who they were working for. So at the end of the war, Peter was part of the local history society and he told his story and, and had started to read about the auxiliary units and presumed that's what he was in. And in fact, to the extent that there's the blue plaque above what was the Draper's shop, saying this was a auxiliary units radio cell, but it wasn't. So Peter didn't know what he was in at all. That's how secret it is. The people who are in it didn't even know what they're in. And, and most of them, because they weren't called upon, said absolutely nothing. There's another example from Yorkshire of a, of a mother who passed away fairly recently, who was high up in the WI in Yorkshire.

• 50:23Speaker 03

  She told her family that she was responsible for driving, using the WI as a cover, for driving around Yorkshire. And she used very specific terminology, delivering explosives and weapons to caves all around Yorkshire. So there is, there's so much tantalising information out there. We know relative, well, very little essentially as to the size of this group and also what their objectives were. What does success look like for Section Seven? Because the resistance in mainland Europe had Britain as a island of hope, of a platform from which liberation can come from. If Britain had fallen and we were occupied. Is the US going to get involved in the war? If so, the Atlantic Ocean is a big old gap between us and liberation. What does success look like for a ongoing resistance?

• 51:08Speaker 03

  I'd say it's, and again, very much suicidal, but just talks about the bravery of these people.

• 51:14Dan Snow?

  So obviously, one of the first things I want to say to listeners is if any of this rings true, you need to get in touch with Andy because it must be very frustrating for you. This, we're in the last months and years of being able to talk to these people. If they were 14 or so in 1940, they're going to be mid to late 90s. So just check, just check that your nan is not like Irene and can actually throw a pots and pan salesman down the footpath. And what about the archives? Presumably this stuff has been, the government has declassified this stuff now. Is there a paper trail here that you can exploit?

• 51:47Speaker 03

  Nope. I don't know whether they've gone for a longer period of the official secret act just because the people they're recruiting were so young. But there is, as far as we can see, there's nothing in the archives. There's the piece by Keith Jeffrey, who obviously had access to official MI6 content that's in the official histories. And actually, interesting, section seven officially of MI6 is the accountancy arm. So they've hidden this resistance group under an accountancy arm. So even if you're looking up section seven MI6, you're just going to get accounts rather than ruthless resistors. So we are very much looking for that paper trail because it has to be paid for. There has to be some kind of paper trail somewhere, but we, we have yet to find it yet.

• 52:31Dan Snow?

  Are we confident that you think you will one day?

• 52:33Speaker 03

  I hope so. Wouldn't that be amazing? I'm not sure when it will be released if it is, but we'll certainly keep searching because I'd just love to get an idea of just the number of people involved in this. Because as I said, it's got the potential to be thousands and thousands. I mean, the auxiliary units was, we think about six and a half thousand and the special duties branch, about four and a half thousand. But this is the potential to be. Double that at least. So yeah, much more than that. So this is huge potential to be an amazing story.

• 52:59Dan Snow?

  And wouldn't it be great to get the last survivors some recognition? Because there's been zero acknowledgement, zero recognition, nothing at all so far.

• 53:06Speaker 03

  Absolutely nothing. Yeah, no, no, exactly right. The only thing is I said is there's three paragraphs in the official history of MI6 kind of hidden, absolutely nothing from anyone. And actually, you know, it took years and years for the auxiliary units to get recognised. It was only in the mid 2000s that we managed to get them permission to walk past the cenotaph on a member in Sunday, for example. So, and that's the auxiliary units, which has essentially been in the public eye since David Lambeau wrote that first book about it in 1968. And there's certainly no medal for any of these groups. None of these groups were officially given the Defence Medal, unlike the Home Guard. So yeah, absolutely no recognition at all, which is really awful, considering the sacrifice these guys were prepared to make in this country's hour of need.

• 53:48Dan Snow?

  It's just such a fascinating story and exactly the kind of history I love. Every time we come back to it, we uncover something new, new artefacts, new stories, missing places, new details that beget more questions and, well, we realise there's need for more answers. So as I say, if you've heard stories from family members like the ones Andy mentioned, or stumbled across something unusual while you're out walking the dog or exploring your local woods, we would love to hear from you. Please get in touch at [email protected]. Andy and I are always looking for new leads. You can dive deeper into Britain's wartime resistance in Andy's book, Britain's Secret Defences: Civilian Saboteurs, Spies and Assassins.

• 54:32Dan Snow?

  Strong recommend for that. Also, of course, I've got to recommend, you've got to go and watch our latest documentary on our History Hit TV channel. You'll get to see inside the auxiliary bunker we visited with Ken and plenty more from our recent bunker hunting adventures. The documentary is called Churchill's Secret Army. All you've got to do is subscribe to History Hit. You will find a link to sign up and watch in the show notes this podcast. Thank you for doing that. But above all, folks, obviously, a huge thank you to Ken Welch. What an amazing man. And to everyone at the Coles Hill Auxiliary Research Team for their meticulous work. See you next time.

• 55:26Speaker 01

  In Our Time is a world-class seminar every week. Why was Jeremy a lonely snail? What were lines doing in York in the third century? I'm Misha Glennie and every week I'm joined by expert guests to explore the ideas that shape our world.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  It's one of the first times really that you consistently see someone painting teeth. I know that sounds bonkers. If I was going to define mathematics, I would say it's the study of structure.

• 55:50Speaker 01

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• 56:00Dan Snow?

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