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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:02 Ryan Holiday? Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, where each day we read a passage of ancient wisdom designed to help you in your everyday life. On Tuesdays, we take a closer look at these Stoic ideas, how we can apply them in our actual lives. Thanks for listening, and I hope you enjoy.
0:28 Ryan Holiday? What does your calendar say? Unlike most of the emperors, Marcus Aurelius actually loved his wife. They were married for 30 years. Although there were rumors, and many scholars consider it just slander, that she was unfaithful, Marcus Aurelius seems to have never doubted Faustina, whom he'd been with since he was 17. She bore him 13 children, and when she died, he was profoundly devastated and promptly had her deified, building a statue of her outside the Temple of Venus, constructing another temple in her honor. There is one letter between him and his tutor Fronto where Marcus Aurelius said that he loved his wife and their life together more than just about anything else. "I call the gods to witness," he wrote, "that I would were I now living in exile with Faustina rather than without her on
1:12 Ryan Holiday? the palanquin. The palaces were nice," he was saying, "so was power. He knew his job was important, but none of it was better than the time you got to spend with his lovely partner." It's a wonderful sentiment, but how true was it? As they say, your calendar doesn't lie. Marcus Aurelius spent years away from Rome, fighting wars and visiting the provinces. He spent time in Greece, as all students of philosophy considered a must. He had cases to adjudicate dignitaries to receive, things to write. He no doubt spent a lot of time reading, a lot of time training, a lot of time committed to serving the people of Rome. In short, he was like a lot of us who claim that our family comes first, that there's no one more important to us, and
1:54 Ryan Holiday? we promptly put so many other things before them. Sometimes that stuff is life or death or matters of making a living. Sometimes, though, it's not nearly so essential, although we tell ourselves it is. The irony is that Mark Sturris never aspired to be the emperor. He didn't particularly like the job either, yet it took over his life, consumed his calendar all the same. Maybe Faustina was, in fact, unfaithful for that reason. Certainly, his absence helps better explain the problems with Commodus. In any case, it's a cautionary tale for all of us, a reminder, to play on Mark Sturris' phrase, not just to talk about being a family man, but to actually be one. And look, if you want to be a better parent, better spouse, you might like the Daily Dad email, which goes out every day.
2:38 Ryan Holiday? We also do a podcast version of it. You can listen to it each day. And then my wife and I, Samantha, do a weekend podcast episode most weekends as well. You can subscribe at DailyDad.com or click on the link in today's description, or just search The Daily Dad anywhere you get your podcasts, and follow us on social media, too. You're not always going to win. You're not always going to be recognized, but you appreciate yourself, you know what you did. Humility, getting a little bit better every day, every year, that's what makes you the greatest. One of the things you learn in life is that the best man doesn't always win.
3:21 Ryan Holiday? Cato, the towering Stoic, the one that all of the Stoics admired more than anyone else, famously loses. He loses to Julius Caesar. His army is vanquished. He ends up committing suicide. But just because Cato loses doesn't mean he's a loser. And in fact, all of the Stoics admire him more because of how he lost, because of what he did in that losing battle. No one could say that Cato gave anything less than his best. In fact, Cato gives everything. And it's a really important Stoic lesson. I am Ryan Holiday. I've written a number of books about Stoic philosophy, have spoken about it to everyone from the NBA to the NFL, sitting senators and special forces leaders. And in today's episode, we're going to talk about a fundamental reality of life in Stoicism,
4:05 Ryan Holiday? which is that we control what we put into things, but we don't control whether we succeed at things. We don't control what comes out of things. But the Stoics would say we always control whether we give our best, whether we really try at something, we control the effort that we're putting into it. And that's what I want to talk to you about in today's episode.
4:27 Ryan Holiday? The talk I just gave at the Naval Academy, I ended with this story about Jimmy Carter. So Jimmy Carter goes to the Naval Academy in 46, maybe graduates in 46. And so he wants to be on nuclear submarines. So he ends up, all the candidates are interviewed by Admiral Hyman Rickover, who's sort of the head of this program. He does it for years and years and years. And so it's this interview process. It's the best of the best. You know, it's the most competitive slot. And so it's sort of this long interview. They talk about books and they talk about physics and they talk about history. And then finally, Rickover goes, you know, how did you do in your class at the Naval Academy? Carter's like, you know, great. You know, I was like 32 out of, you know, 400, whatever. He's thinking about rank and sort of talking about his grades and how great he did. And Rickover just goes, but did you always do your best?
5:11 Ryan Holiday? And he's, of course, you know, your instinct is yeah, of course, right? And then he's like, thinks about it. And he's like, well, you know, he's thinking about all the times he didn't do his best.
5:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:21 Ryan Holiday? Right? Like all, you know, classes that he phoned in or, you know, could have gone and done extra PT doesn't. And he goes, you know what? No, I didn't always do my best. And then Rickover goes, why not? And then he just gets up and leaves. And that question sort of haunts Jimmy Carter for the rest of his life. Like his campaign biography, when he runs for his first office is called Why Not the Best? Like, why didn't you do your best? And so, yeah, I think people who are really great, and people don't always think of him as a great president. He actually was a great president and was a much better ex-president. Like, without question, the best person ever to have been president. Like, I mean, up until a couple of years ago, he was still building houses for Habitat for Humanity. He's cured all these diseases. He's brokered all these peace treaties and stuff. A great human being.
6:02 Ryan Holiday? But really great people are not actually thinking about, here's my list of accomplishments. They're like, I always did the best I could do in the situation that I was in. I didn't, I didn't quit, you know, three laps in. I went until I fucking fell over. You know, like that. To me, it's like, did you do your best? Yes or no?
6:23 Speaker 02 Yeah, and I think I don't know if there's ever truly 100%.
6:27 Ryan Holiday? Sure.
6:27 Speaker 02 Because throughout that, if it's something hard, you're gonna have the, you're gonna have the false step here and there. And like, you know, the debate in your head about quitting and whatever, and there might be a bit of wasted, I don't know if it's wasted time, but not productive time in that moment. But like, if you just keep, I think your best is dealing with that and seeing through that.
6:46 Ryan Holiday? Sure.
6:47 Speaker 02 So it's not like you're 100% optimal performance at all times.
6:50 Ryan Holiday? No.
6:50 Speaker 02 Whatever. It's, but it's, it's just not, I mean, it really is just not quitting in a sense.
6:55 Ryan Holiday? Yes.
6:55 Speaker 02 But I think that's in common with pretty much anybody that does anything in a high level.
7:03 Ryan Holiday? One of the best things I heard about Tom Brady is that Tom Brady is not obsessed with winning. What Tom Brady is actually obsessed with is getting better. He wants to improve the accuracy of his fourth quarter throws a little bit. He wants to get rid of the ball a little bit faster. He wants to make his reads a little bit better. He wants to be a little bit better as a leader. He wants to recover after games a little bit faster. What Tom Brady has always been obsessed with is that, getting better. And cumulatively, getting a little bit better every day, every year, compounded over a long enough time, that's what makes you the greatest. That's what makes you a Super Bowl champion. Of course, he also wants to win. Of course, winning is very important. But what actually drives him, what actually drives champions, what I try to focus on as a writer, is not
7:48 Ryan Holiday? the external things, not the things I don't control, but getting a little bit better every single day.
7:56 Ryan Holiday? There's a story that Roseanne Cash tells in her memoir. I think she's done maybe one or two albums. Obviously, she comes from sort of music royalty.
8:03 Speaker 03 Right.
8:04 Ryan Holiday? So she, she sort of gets a break in the business, but she has this dream. And in the dream, she's at this party and she sees the singer Linda Ronstadt talking to this man. Do you know this story?
8:15 Speaker 03 No, I don't.
8:16 Ryan Holiday? And so she walks up to him, they all have name tags, and the man's name tag, it just says Art, right? Which is symbolic of
8:22 Speaker 03 Yeah.
8:23 Ryan Holiday? her, her craft. So she goes and she tries to like, get in on this conversation as Linda Ronstadt's her hero. And she says, hi, you know, I'm Roseanne. And Art turns to her and he just says, we don't respect To dilettantes and then they turn away from her. And for her, this was this sort of turning point moment that she realized like she was doing music, but she wasn't really doing music. She wasn't all in on it. And so like, there's this turning point in her career where she goes back and she's, she gets coaches and she starts working with better collaborators. She stops. You know, she, this is the moment where she's like, I was only kind of doing this thing. And now I'm really going to do this thing. And that's how she becomes ultimately what she ends up becoming.
9:03 Speaker 03 That's awesome. I've not heard that story. That's great.
9:05 Ryan Holiday? Steven Pressfield tells a version of that story also in The War of Art. He's saying that that's the resistance, right? The resistance is, well, if I don't really try, if I'm half doing it, or I have this addiction, or this compulsion, or this, this other thing, then I can always use that as an excuse for why it's not happening for me. And then when it doesn't happen, I don't have to feel as bad because it's not a rejection of me. It's only a partial rejection of me.
9:37 Speaker 03 Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's much easier to just try a little bit and then eh, okay. I didn't put, I didn't go all in on it.
9:44 Ryan Holiday? I could have if I wanted to.
9:46 Speaker 03 Yeah, that whole thing versus, you know, working really hard and then failing. But to me, you know, I mean, obviously you don't really think like that, but I'm like, okay. At least I went out there and I gave it everything I had versus just sitting on the couch today.
10:03 Ryan Holiday? Folks have this word euthymia, which means tranquility. And Seneca says, well, what is that tranquility? How does one get it? It's not you retreat to the mountains or a monastery or some beautiful resort. He says euthymia in the course of life has to come from something else. And he says, he defines this euthymia as, he says, a sense of the path that you're on without being distracted by the paths that crisscross yours, even from those, especially from those who are hopelessly lost. So you think about the interchanges and the connections. You think about all the other companies doing what you do, going in similar. Think about what's happening in the industry, in the world. It's very easy to get distracted.
10:47 Ryan Holiday? When I was at American Apparel, I watched Dove destroy a billion-dollar company because instead of doing what he did well, what the company was meant to do, he started doing what Forever 21 was doing, and Urban Outfitters was doing, and H&M was doing. He lacked the discipline to stay on his path. He got distracted by the paths of those who crisscrossed him, even when some of those companies ultimately also were headed towards bankruptcy or having to reinvent themselves. So it takes a lot of discipline to know what you do, what makes you great, what your principles are, what your place in the market is, and to stay on that and to not get distracted, to not get distracted by every shiny other thing. And so euphemia is not just a recipe for personal happiness, tranquility, but it's
11:32 Ryan Holiday? also a recipe for success, right? Staying in your lane, staying on your tracks, doing what you set out to do, adhering to your strategic plan, your mission, your principles. This takes an enormous amount of discipline.
11:51 Ryan Holiday? One of the reasons that you don't focus on outcomes is that they don't last and they don't have nearly the impact that you think they're gonna have. I remember the first time I hit number one on the New York Times bestseller list, I'm like, "I did it, I made it." And then, of course, seven days later, somebody else is there behind you. I think it was like Donald Trump Jr. took my spot at number one. And then it came out that he had like purchased all those copies to get there. So it kind of undermines the accomplishment. Not only is it ephemeral, you find out in retrospect that it didn't mean maybe as much as you thought it was gonna mean. I remember I was reading about this actor, it might have been Brad Pitt. He's profiled in some magazines, like his first big press hit as an actor, and then he goes over to a friend's house a couple of days later, and he sees it lining the bottom of their birdcage, right? Which is what happens, right?
12:36 Ryan Holiday? All glory is fleeting, it doesn't last, the Latin saying, "Sic transit, gloria mundi", right? All glory is fleeting. But what's there, what does last, is the work that you did, the things that you learned, the understanding you got of yourself, the thing that you said, that lasts, that matters. And so that's what you try to focus on.
12:58 Ryan Holiday? You probably see me from my videos. I'm always moving around. I'm always active. I'm always doing stuff, even when I'm sitting, riding, I'm bouncing my legs around. I try to be active. The Stoics tried to be active. I try to be active. It's just my personality. I'm walking, I'm running, I'm biking. And as a guy with two little kids, I'm chasing them around all the time, too. Lately, I've been doing it in my new HOKA's, which I absolutely love. Conceived in the mountains and designed to defy the odds. HOKA delivers an unprecedented combination of enhanced cushioning and support for uniquely smooth ride. That's what I always feel about them. I've been wearing the new Mach 6. Get what's next in fast with HOKA shoes. I love wearing them. It's what I'm wearing when I'm writing. It's what I'm wearing when I'm going on walks to think about what I'm trying to write.
13:43 Ryan Holiday? It's got high-performance foam. It's got a sleek stripped down upper. It's lightweight and responsive. It's got the HOKA cushion that if you've ever put HOKA shoes on, you know what I'm talking about. And the ones I'm wearing right now have this upgraded midsole from Profly Plus. Join HOKA on the journey. Embrace limitless possibilities. Run like race day every day.
14:07 Ryan Holiday? Whenever you're sitting there and you're going, man, like, I just need to be in Mexico right now. Or damn, like, I wish my house was bigger. Just wish I was in a bigger house. I find it so funny because I'm like, do you actually want to be in Mexico right now? Or do you like the person you think you're going to be in Mexico right now? Yes. And it's the same with that house. And I think it's kind of the same theme from your book. It's just like, you get what you are. Yes. So just be the best version of yourself as possible.
14:41 Ryan Holiday? Famous quote from Marcus Aurelius, "The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way." And it's funny, it's actually in Book Five of Meditations. What Marcus Aurelius is talking about is people. He says, "In a sense, people are our proper occupation. Our job is to do them good and put up with them. But when they obstruct our proper tasks, they become irrelevant to us, like sun and wind and animals." He says, "Our actions may be impeded by them, but there can be no impeding our intentions or our dispositions because we can accommodate and adapt. The mind adapts and converts to its own purposes the obstacle to our acting. The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way." So when he's saying the obstacle is the way he's specifically talking about difficult people, he's saying that people are an opportunity to practice virtue, difficult people most
15:25 Ryan Holiday? of all. What these people are is a chance for you to try to do things differently. I think it's a wonderful phrase that people are our proper occupation. We are put here for each other. We are social, political animals, as the ancients would say, and our job is to figure out how to work with people, to get things out of them, to not be corrupted by them, to not be broken by them, to not let them turn us into assholes or sons of bitches, not to let them change us in a negative way, but actually when we deal with difficult, frustrating, or annoying, or noxious people, as Marcus really starts book two of Meditations, lamenting all the things that people are gonna do, people are there for is to present us opportunities to grow and change and learn and do good for them and the world.
16:09 Ryan Holiday? Favorite books, novels of all time, this is the moviegoer by Walker Percy. It's not exactly Stoic, although there is a bunch of Stoic themes. Walker Percy was introduced to Stoicism by his uncle Will Percy. And there's this amazing passage in the book, let me find it real fast. He's struggling, he has this sort of Stoic aunt who tries to give him something to lean on. His world kind of feels like he's spinning out of control. He doesn't know what's important, what he should try to do, who he should try to be. This is what his aunt Emily says. She says, "I don't know what we're doing on this insignificant cinder spinning away in a dark corner of the universe. That is a secret which the high gods have yet confided in me. Yet one thing I believe, and I believe
16:50 Ryan Holiday? it with every fiber of my being, a man must live by his lights and do what little he can and do it as best he can. In this world, goodness is destined to be defeated, but a man must go down fighting. That is the victory. To do anything less is to be less than a man." I think that's really the essence of Stoic philosophy. There was this expression in the old days that the gods favored the Catos of the world, basically, because Cato loses against Julius Caesar, but he was the better man. He did everything he could. It didn't go his way, but that was really the hero's cause. That's what we're talking about when we're talking about doing your best. You're not always gonna win. You're not always gonna be recognized. You're not always gonna be appreciated, but you appreciate
17:31 Ryan Holiday? yourself. You know what you did. You know you left it all on the field, right? You left it all in the jersey. You left it all in the chair. Whatever it is that you're doing, you did everything you could. That's not only enough, but it's plenty.
17:48 Ryan Holiday? In Meditations, Marcus really says ambition is tying your success to what other people do or say, right? If they select you, if they approve you, if they cheer for you. He says sanity is tying it to your own actions, right? That's the problem. So much of what we want, what we're aspiring to, what our goals are, are not in our control, as Epictetus would say. But in fact, they're the opposite. They're handing over that control, that judgment or evaluation to other people. And so when your ambition shifts more internally towards what you control, towards what you do, to who you were while you did it, you're empowered, right? And you're more self-sufficient. John Wooden said something like, "Success is peace of mind, which is the direct result in knowing that you
18:31 Ryan Holiday? made the best effort to do your best to become the best you're capable of becoming." And obviously, John Wooden cares a lot about winning, and he wins a lot. But you have this bigger, more encompassing definition of what your success is and who you're trying to be, how you judge yourself. So you can have a team that wins, that you're disappointed in, you can have a team that loses, that you couldn't be more proud of, right? And I try to get to a place, and I think I am at this place with my books, where some of the books I'm most proud of have sold the fewest copies, and the books that while proud of, I'm not changed by or puffed up by their success, right? Because I've done better since, right? I'm more focused on other things. I'm prouder of other things in other projects. So you do your work, you focus on what you can focus
19:15 Ryan Holiday? on, and you know, you leave the rest to God, the gods, luck, the market, the whims of the universe, whatever you want to call it, you leave it there.
19:28 Ryan Holiday? So we can imagine when Marcus comes to the end of life and realizes he's gonna die, I wonder if he thought about the passage that he wrote in Book 1036. He says, "It doesn't matter how good a life you've led, there will still be people standing around the bed who will welcome the sad event." His point was, if you're doing this for validation, if you're doing this to be loved, if you're doing this to be remembered, I mean, to be remembered, he says, is silly, because you're not gonna be around. But the point is, the rewards for doing the right thing have to be the right thing. You can't be doing it to be liked, you can't care about what other people think. You can't try to please everyone all the time and be everyone's favorite, especially as a leader. So Marcus had to constantly be aware of this. I remember if, when he actually came to the end of his life,
20:13 Ryan Holiday? if he thought about the fact that maybe secretly, some of these people didn't, were glad he would be gone soon. And if he had to come to terms with those words that he'd written so long ago.
20:25 Ryan Holiday? It's hard to say no. We have to realize that when you're saying no to things, you're also saying yes. It's when you eliminate the inessential, Marcus really says. But you're really doing the same yes to the essential. You get the double benefit, he says, when you say no. Getting rid of the extraneous, the extra, the unnecessary. And the double benefit is being able to do the essential, the urgent, the important, to do it even better. So I try to remind myself that every no is a yes, and every yes is also a no.
20:56 Ryan Holiday? The problem with goals is that most goals are based on things that we don't control, that are not up to us. My last book, when it came out, it debuted at number three on the New York Times list. It didn't even appear on the Wall Street Journalist. Couple of weeks later, I had a book hit number one on the Wall Street Journalist and not even appear on the New York Times list. So I'm supposed to hand over my happiness, my definition of what success is, to a process as complicated and ridiculous and opaque as that? I don't think so. For me, the success of the book is on what I put into it. If I did the work, if I know it's good. And there, I'm successful from launch forward. The Stoics would say, of course, we can have these preferred indifference. Like, it's better to hit the list than not hit the list, just like it's better to be rich than poor.
21:39 Ryan Holiday? But that's not what we focus on, because that's not what's up to us. We focus on what's up to us, what we put into it, our thoughts, our opinions, our intentions. Then we let everything else from there go. We accept it without arrogance if we get it, but we let it go with indifference if we don't.
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