Michael Ian Black on Vulnerability, Becoming an Actor, and Raising Kids

Ryan talks to Michael Ian Black about how becoming a father forced him to face his emotionally cauterized state, how the theater became his escape from reality, our obligation as human beings to serve the common good, and more. Michael Ian Black is a multi-media talent who’s starred in numerous films and TV series, written and/or directed two films, is a prolific author and commentator, and regularly tours the country performing his ribald brand of jokes and observations. He most recently starred in TVLand's “The Jim Gaffigan Show” and Comedy Central’s “Another Period.” He also reprised one of his iconic film roles in Netflix’s “Wet Hot American Summer: Ten Years Later.”Michael has authored 11 books, including the one we talk about today, A Better Man: A (Mostly Serious) Letter to My Son. This book reveals his own complicated relationship with his father, explores the damage and rising violence caused by the expectations placed on boys to “man up,” and searches for the best way to help young men be part of the solution, not the problem.80,000 Hours is a nonprofit that provides free research and support to help people have a positive impact with their career. To get started planning a career that works on one of the world’s most pressing problems, sign up now at 80000hours.org/stoic. Kion Aminos is backed by over 20 years of clinical research, has the highest quality ingredients, no fillers or junk, undergoes rigorous quality testing, and tastes amazing with all-natural flavors. Go to getkion.com/dailystoic to save 20% on subscriptions and 10% on one-time purchases. Right now, when you purchase a 3-month Babbel subscription, you’ll get an additional 3 months for FREE. That’s 6 months, for the price of 3! Just go to Babbel.com and use promo code DAILYSTOIC. GiveWell is the best site for figuring out how and where to donate your money to have the greatest impact. Go to Givewell.org to read more about their research or donate to any of their recommended charities. Enter Daily Stoic at checkout so they know we sent you. Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemailCheck out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more. Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:07Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Weekend Edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,

• 0:50Ryan Holiday?

  and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

• 0:57Ryan Holiday?

  All the Stoics were active in life, trying to make a difference, trying to have a positive impact on the world. They were suspicious of the pen and ink philosophers, of people who just wrote about stuff who didn't do it. But we've talked before about how you're only on this planet for like 4,000 weeks. Let's say you work for 40 years of that time. That's 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year for 40 years. That's 80,000 hours. Your career is roughly 80,000 hours. It's a lot of time, but it's also not a lot of time. You really can't afford to waste it. But if you dedicate yourself and end that time productively and effectively, you can have a huge positive impact on the world. You can serve the common good, as the Stoics talk about.

• 1:39Ryan Holiday?

  Well, 80,000 hours is a nonprofit that provides free research and support to help people do just that, to have a positive impact with their career. You can join their newsletter. They'll send you a free in-depth guide that takes you through all the steps, all the way to a concrete career plan. They host an awesome job board with nearly 1,000 open, high-impact career opportunities, and they offer free one-on-one advice to help you switch paths. There's also a great 80,000 Hours podcast, which hosts super in-depth conversations with experts about how To best tackle pressing global problems. You can join the newsletter right now. Get a free copy of their in-depth career guide sent right to your inbox. Just sign up at 80,000hours.org/stoic.

• 2:21Ryan Holiday?

  That's 80, the number 80,000 spelled out hours.org/stoic. 80,000hours.org/stoic. And just to be clear, they're a nonprofit and everything they provide is free always. They're fully philanthropically funded. Their only goal is to help you have more impact in your career with those 80,000 hours that you have on this planet. To get started planning a career that works, sign up at 80,000hours.org/stoic.

• 2:53Ryan Holiday?

  Man, it was quite a busy week for me. I realized I was in five states in four days. I did a virtual talk. I did a talk in Charlotte. I did a talk in Connecticut. Then I did a talk in Los Angeles, met some cool people. Matt Ruhl, the coach of the Carolina Panthers, came out to my talk in Charlotte, which was very nice. He's a busy guy. He stopped by and then Les Snead of the Los Angeles Rams and his wonderful wife Kara popped in when I was in Los Angeles. So it was cool to have some familiar faces in the audience. And then Les gave me a ride back to

• 3:38Ryan Holiday?

  the airport. So it was a weird football centric week for me because I also spoke to the NFL's social media teams, which was kind of a cool experience. So a busy week for me. I just got back home. I'm recording this now, about to go downstairs and do a little live event here at the Painted Porch, my bookstore, the wonderful author Jack Carr. So his episode will be coming up on the podcast soon. But my episode today, which I've been looking forward to for a long time, ever since I read an essay that he published in The Atlantic. Actually, to go back before that, I feel like I've always seen him on television. As I tell him, I used to watch this show he was on in reruns when I would get home from school in the afternoon. But Michael

• 4:23Ryan Holiday?

  Ian Black is just one of those funny people that has been on television forever. And I read this article he wrote in The Atlantic about the way that becoming a father had forced him to change emotionally. And it was really interesting whether you're a parent or not, because there is this stereotype, the lowercase stoic, the suppressed, repressed, automaton stoic, which is not what it is. We make this distinction between lowercase, uppercase stoicism. I think we've talked more than enough on this podcast about the importance of accessing, processing, not pretending that your emotions don't exist. And we'll get into that in today's episode. Today's guest is just, I mean, a multimedia talent.

• 5:06Ryan Holiday?

  He's published 11 books. He's been on everything from The Jim Gaffigan Show. He's part of the comedy group Stella. He's been, if you haven't seen Wet Hot American Summer, just one of the great sort of cult comedy classics of all time. I remember him from Best Week Ever when I was in high school. But his new book, A Better Man, A Mostly Serious Letter To My Son, I just really, really enjoyed. It reveals his own complicated relationship with his father, explores the damage and rising violence caused by the expectation placed on boys to man up, and searches for a better way to help young men be part of the solution and not part of the problem. But it's just an introspective and delightful book, and

• 5:48Ryan Holiday?

  I think we have a really good conversation. And I'm excited to bring that to you. You can follow him on Twitter and Instagram @MichaelIanBlack. You can go to his website, michaelianblack.org. Not a nonprofit, it's just the name of his website. And do check out his new book, A Better Man, A Mostly Serious Letter To My Son. And I'm going to make a case, as I do at the beginning of the episode, for a revival of the television show Ed, which I remember Michael Ian Black being on and enjoying, have very fond memories of. And anyways, here's my interview with Michael Ian Black. And hopefully, this week will be a little calmer and stiller for me than the others. In the meantime, enjoy.

• 6:39Ryan Holiday?

  I had Scott Thompson from Kids in the Hall on a while back. I was thinking about all the times I would come home from school and watch reruns of Kids in the Hall on Comedy Central. And then I was, as I was preparing for this, I was thinking of the other show that I used to watch a little bit later, but I used to watch reruns of Ed, which I think is a highly underrated show.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Thanks, I appreciate that. It's a good show.

• 7:02Ryan Holiday?

  I thought it was. It was also a very sweet show.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:06Ryan Holiday?

  Unfortunately, it's not, you know, like, and this is kind of right before, I guess, the rise of the sort of anti-hero show and the not-sweet show. Like, I feel like the last 20 or so years of shows on television have primarily been about not being sweet.

• 7:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's true. I feel like even at the time, Ed's earnestness was a little bit unusual. It was, it was still a pretty snarky era in television, and we were not a very snarky show.

• 7:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, and, and maybe that earnestness, it doesn't exist on television for a reason, which is that it makes people uncomfortable.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Oh, people hate earnestness.

• 7:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  People, people hate to be confronted with, with people expressing themselves in an open and honest way.

• 8:03Ryan Holiday?

  There's kind of almost a not-interestingness to earnestness, because there's not, like, a secret life, there's not, like, this deep backstory, it's not rooted in some profound trauma, it's just like, this person is good and generally tries to do good. Tune in next week.

• 8:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, when you, when you put it like that, I'm like, oh, wait, I don't want to watch that show either.

• 8:29Ryan Holiday?

  But I actually find that like when I watch, like someone will be like, you gotta check out this new Netflix show or this one or whatever. And then I'm, I'm like, you know, I'm to get into the show, it's like a 20 hour investment or whatever. You watch all this stuff and then you're just like, I fucking hate this person. This person is awful. Like, like I'm not rooting for them. And the only reason I am rooting for them is that the other people are worse, you know, and it's just, it's, it feels like it, it does feel like, remember, I remember when I was a kid, the whole thing was like, whether, you know, violent video games made people more violent. I don't know if I buy that argument or not, but it does feel like hours and hours of consuming television in which no one is sincere, no one is good. And, and people are always awful and self-absorbed, sort

• 9:11Ryan Holiday?

  of anti-heroes. That's got, I feel like that has to have some impact on culture and people.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  Well, the, the, or the other question is, is it really, is it just reflecting kind of the culture as it is? And I don't know the answer to that. I will say Ted Lasso, incredibly earnest and incredibly successful.

• 9:30Ryan Holiday?

  That's true. Yes. No, it, it, it actually has some, some Ed vibes. He's, he's, uh, he's, it's sort of fish out of water, funny sidekicks, not actually a lot happening, you know, and then of course, both about very exciting sports, soccer and bowling.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly right. We were, we were the Ted Lasso of bowling.

• 9:52Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. But you, you didn't get to be a loss leader for the most valuable company in the world. So you didn't get quite as much runway.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  No, we really did not.

• 10:02Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I read the essay that you published in the Atlantic before you did the book. And so I was excited to read the book and I know parts of the essay are, are at the back of the book. But the one line in that essay that has struck me, I have two young kids, but I thought was, was perfectly said. You were saying that you weren't prepared to be a father, having spent the last 30 years of your life in an emotionally cauterized state.

• 10:28Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 10:29Ryan Holiday?

  Uh, talk to me about the emotionally cauterized state. Cause to me, that perfectly encapsulates where a, a lot of people are and perhaps don't even know it.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think it's particularly true for men that we are conditioned to, uh,

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Immediately scab over any wounds that we have with the idea that we will strengthen ourselves if we don't acknowledge whatever pain we're experiencing. And that has some truth to it. I think there is some truth to walking through life without wearing your vulnerabilities on your sleeve. But the drawback of it is that there may come a point in your life, and for me, it was upon becoming a dad, where I wasn't able to release whatever

• 11:31Speaker 01

  kind of was was going on with me. I had a hard time expressing, you know, name, name your emotion, joy, grief, vulnerability, pain, anxiety. I had a hard time expressing those things because I didn't have the emotional vocabulary, because I'd spent the previous 30 years of my life doing everything I in my power I could to to not express those things. So when when the stakes got higher, I didn't have the tools.

• 12:02Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I I've sort of likened it to like putting things on a credit card, right? You're not paying for them, but eventually the bill comes due and then there's a lot of interest attached.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  I think that's a really good analogy, and you just expressed it very quickly and much better than I did in my rambling response to your question.

• 12:22Ryan Holiday?

  Well, no, because it you're like, well, I don't want to feel this because this makes me weak or vulnerable, or it overwhelms me. So I'm just going to stuff it down. And then that is the thing about having kids is now like, no, no amount of fortitude or strength or stuff it down this can block the incredible emotions that it brings out of you. So you're just totally overwhelmed all the time.

• 12:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there are a lot of people, men in particular, who manage to preserve that. Invulnerability or attempt to preserve that invulnerability. And I think it it ends up impacting their relationship with their kids. You know, I think for the for the worse, you know, we we there's so many stories about the strong silent dad, you know, the who was unreachable to their kids. And I just didn't want to be that dad, you know? I just didn't want to be that guy. So I had to figure out why I had to figure out ways to break down my own barriers.

• 13:30Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's I think it's probably hard because the profession that you chose is benefited by like. So if you're like, I'm going to feel this feeling that maybe that helps you as an individual. If you're like, I'm going to find what's funny or weird, or I'm going to deny this feeling that that might be better for comedic purposes, but bad for you as an individual. So these things are kind of in in tension with each other, wouldn't you think?

• 13:57Speaker 01

  They could be. They had been in my case because I'd spent a lot of my previous career deflecting and being sarcastic and being deadpan, and that had served me really well. But it wasn't serving me well as a human, you know, serving me pretty well as a as a guy who could talk about shit on VH1.

• 14:15Ryan Holiday?

  Well, it's it's like they talk about like, oh, does does being a drug addict? Does it make Jimi Hendrix a better musician, right? Or does could Nirvana have been possible if Kurt Cobain was sober? And it's like, perhaps, but it's it's it's only helpful in the short term since it killed both of them. So it's like, maybe one is better than the other, but averaged out over the course of one's life. It's obviously a shitty strategy.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  It's also true that, yeah, I agree with that entirely. It's also true that things that serve one facet of your life may not serve the rest of your life. And at a certain point, you may have to make a choice and decide what's more important. On the other hand, when it comes to this kind of work, emotional work, I'm of the belief that.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  It can only help you as a human and probably as an artist to figure out ways to be the broadest spectrum part of yourself, you know, to open up and be vulnerable and be available.

• 15:26Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, on, on paper, it's absurd. It's like, no, actually being disconnected from who I am, what makes me a human being, what I'm going through on my life, in my life, et cetera. That will make me better at connecting with millions of other humans all over the world going through their own thing. It's like, of course, actually figuring out what you're going through and processing and not stuffing it down, of course, it would make you a better artist. But it's a, it's a, it's a risky thing in the short term because the stuffing it down or whatever you've been using early in your life, it has worked up until a point. So you, you're, it's like when a golfer has reinvents their swing or something, or you, you have to look, relearn how to do something. That's the scary part, I think.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  Well, I wonder in the case of a lot of artists, musicians, comedians, what have you, if there is a sense of you're packing everything that you have into this one outlet. And so when they, when, when a musician says, well, you know, my guitar is how I express myself. I wonder if that's literally true for some people where you are only able to speak through the instrument. And so if you were to sort of open up and you had those other avenues available to you, whether you wouldn't feel like I'm giving something up by doing that. I tend to think that's probably not the case, but I can understand the temptation to feel that way.

• 16:51Ryan Holiday?

  Well, yeah, I think obviously being emotionally cauterized is sort of one coping mechanism. I also think like sort of being really ambitious is another way because you're like, well, I'm focused on my career and when I achieve this, then I'll feel good. And instead of going like, I'm sad because my dad, I didn't feel like my dad was proud of me. You get to say to yourself, my dad will be proud of me when I accomplish X, right? So it's like this sort of thing that you're directing all that energy towards and it allows you not to have to feel what you're feeling. And then so if you're like, well, I'm actually going to focus on all these other things, maybe it puts that conditional, that thing you're hoping for, it, it, it endangers that.

• 17:33Speaker 01

  I I think that's probably true. Yeah, I agree with that.

• 17:37Ryan Holiday?

  Was that part of it for you? Is that what I I think? Because I I I think like what makes someone want to be an artist? Like I I think about like, I was obviously like, I didn't feel like I could communicate with my parents, or I didn't feel understood. So I was like, if I go in my room and sit at the computer, I can write this out and then it will be there. Like then I'll be able to communicate, then I'll feel seen and understood. And I I do feel like most creative types have some sort of wound like that, like a need to be seen or understood or appreciated or impressive. And that is so by instead of going like, I feel shitty about this, you go, I just need to achieve this and then I won't feel that.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  I don't know what it was in my case that put me on the path that I'm on. I started really young. I was like nine when I did my first play and I was like, oh yeah, that that's what I'll do for the rest of my life. You know, like an idiot. I was like, I'll just do this. This is great. But I I couldn't tell you what it what what what hole that was filling for me. I knew that it was easier to meet girls even at nine if you could do theater, because it seemed like there were a lot of girls who were doing that. And I was like, oh yeah, okay. So that makes that absolutely made sense for me. But beyond that, I don't know. I mean, I'm not saying there wasn't anything. There was. I just can't identify for you exactly what it was.

• 19:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But did you? Did you? You wanted to be like good and big at it, I imagine. You didn't fall in love with the I mean, you fall in love with the process of it, but I think a lot for a lot of people, this is why I think there tends to be a sort of an element of narcissism and attention seeking is like, you also want to be like famous and well known for it.

• 19:24Speaker 01

  That wasn't really that didn't that never really played into it for me. My thought was always, I'm going to be an actor. But in my head, what that meant was I'm going to be poor and I'm going to travel around the country doing like regional theaters and make a make a a small little living in that way. Like it like my thought wasn't, I'm going to go be a movie star or I'm going to be a TV star. I wasn't like opposed to that, but that wasn't what I was actively seeking. I was really, I was really interested in, I liked theaters, like literally theaters. I liked being in theaters. I liked working on plays. I liked the people.

• 20:10Ryan Holiday?

  Do you think it was about the community then? Like that you felt at home with these people and maybe you didn't feel that like literally at home?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  Maybe it may have been about community. There was also something, and I'm gonna sound super pretentious here. But I wasn't raised with religion. And there was something kind, there were, there were, like theaters for me were like, were like sanctuaries. And they felt sancti, like sanctified spaces to me. And I could just hang out in theaters by myself. I could just, I remember one summer I went to like this summer camp that I wasn't really happy at. And every camper was responsible for like signing up for what activities you wanted to do that day. I just wouldn't sign up for anything and I would just go to the theater and like, which was this big barn. And just like hang out, up, hang out there all day, like up in the rafters by myself, just reading.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  And being contemplative and navel gazing and doing whatever. But that's where I felt at home and I felt really peaceful there.

• 21:10Ryan Holiday?

  Well, from what I read in the book, it sounded like your actual house was the opposite of all those things.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I grew up in a fairly chaotic environment. My mom was involved with another woman, which precipitated my parents divorce, as those things tend to do. And we grew, and that woman had, you know, a lot of anger issues. It was a small house. There were two women and four kids and a dog. And it was just, it was just an unpleasant place to be most of the time. So yeah, I definitely was looking for escape and, you know, theater may have been that for me.

• 21:51Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's sort of a fantasy world that you have some semblance of control over. And that is rewarding if you do it well.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's girls and at the end, there's, there's usually a pizza party.

• 22:07Speaker 01

  There were, there were almost no pizza parties at my house.

• 22:11Ryan Holiday?

  Uh, I was, I saw some picture the other day where it was like, the teacher promises you a pizza party and then it was like a regular pizza and then it was like cut in those super thin slices. And I was like, this is a traumatic childhood memory.

• 22:24Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Yeah. If you, you promised a pizza party and you get one sixty-fourth of a slice of pizza.

• 22:32Ryan Holiday?

  Well, I like, I, I was thinking about that the other day too, because like, uh, like I love, I love like popcorn, like movie popcorn and like, if you put like, I could eat an unlimited amount of it. Like if you could give me one of those, I could just eat it all. I would feel horrible after, but I could eat all of it. And I was like, where, I was trying to think about where this came from. And I was like, oh yeah, we would, we would have, we had this teacher, she would promise us like a popcorn party. And then we would get like one styrofoam bowl of popcorn, which is not remotely enough. So I was like, this is so obviously like, I'm just, I'm just like wanting what I couldn't have. And now I probably can't have any of it because I have no self-control over it.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Have you, and do you put this to the test? Will you get a large buttered popcorn at the movies and go through the whole thing? Because I think that really would make me sick.

• 23:18Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, I could not only go through like the large buttered one, but then I would get up in the middle of the movie and get a refill of said thing.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 23:25Ryan Holiday?

  And I could probably, I, I could finish the second one, but I'd probably get more like halfway through. And then, yeah, I would feel horrible after.

• 23:32Speaker 01

  That's, that, that's an impressive amount of popcorn. It's not the popcorn, it's the, it's the oil. It's, it's the oil. That's, that's impressive.

• 23:38Ryan Holiday?

  Well, and just the sheer amount of salt that you're probably consuming and then just the amount like that's guaranteeing your teeth are going to be filled with kernels. It's really a painful food to eat that much of.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Yeah. But kudos to you for, for overcoming this childhood trauma by gorging yourself on popcorn.

• 23:56Ryan Holiday?

  Well, now, and now I'm like, you know what? Just no more. Like you can't eat it in a healthy amount. You should just have zero. So I'm, I'm off the popcorn.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Wow. Well, that's sad. That's a little tragic.

• 24:06Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. I was thinking about, obviously the other, the other sort of reason to live in an emotionally cauterized state is that the world is fucking terrible. Like what's happening? Like it's, it's easier not to have to, and you open the book with being a parent whose kid went to the elementary school next to Sandy Hook, like. It's horrible to have to feel these things, so people don't.

• 24:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wonder if that's an excuse too, though, because for most people, first of all, I'm agreeing with your premise. The world is fucking horrible. Like, there's a lot of terrible shit. But for most people, your day-to-day life probably isn't terrible on a day-to-day basis. I mean, most people, at least in this country, you know, you have a roof and you have probably enough to eat and you're relatively, you know, you're probably not shivering every night. Like, for most people, like, your sort of subsistence existence, the level that you sort of subside on every day is probably pretty good.

• 25:14Speaker 01

  We all have to deal with tragedy. We all have to deal with illness. We all have to deal with death. We all have to deal with all the vicissitudes of life. But day-to-day, I don't know that we experience the actual world as being horrible, most of the time.

• 25:37Ryan Holiday?

  No, that's true. I'm just, I'm thinking like, okay, so you have kids, they open you up. Like, I had an eight-month-old when the pandemic started. And so you're opened up, you're this raw thing, and then you're just like, well, now I just have to worry all the time? Like, not just, I was already worried, because you don't want your kid to, I don't know, roll over on their stomach in the middle of the night, or the back. Again, which one is it supposed to be? And then, you know, there's this and that. Did I strap the car seat in properly? And then you're like, oh, wait, the plague's here. Wonderful.

• 26:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's, that's, that's obviously terrible. Yeah, I don't know. For, for as cut off as I am.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  I'm not a big worrier.

• 26:21Ryan Holiday?

  Really?

• 26:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, like with my kids, I just, and this actually may be a way of cutting off emotionally, is I was just like, well, you know what? Most kids grow up fine. My kids will probably be fine. I'm just gonna play the odds here, you know? Most kids don't have sudden infant death syndrome. My kid probably won't, so I'm not gonna worry about it so much.

• 26:46Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 26:46Speaker 01

  Like, I, that, and, but now that I look back on it, that also just may be a way of just cutting off emotionally. Maybe I should have been more worried.

• 26:54Ryan Holiday?

  Well, in the, in the book, you're like, so you, you know, he's, your son's at the school next to Sandy Hook, and then you're like, as I, as I, as I waited for the bus to bring you home, and I remember as I read, I was like, I could not have waited for the bus to bring my kid home. You know what I mean? I would have like driven to the school.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 27:11Ryan Holiday?

  Not to criticize your point, I'm just saying like, that it's, it, the, the uncertainty of it is like, is overwhelming.

• 27:18Speaker 01

  And that moment was overwhelming, as you can imagine. And just to be, just to clarify, you, you said, but I'll, I'll just make it clear. Sandy Hook took place in the town right next to my town.

• 27:29Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 01

  When my kids were also in elementary school. And that day was obviously horrific. At the time, that day, the school was giving us updates all the time. They were just like, look, we're in lockdown, all the schools are in lockdown, don't come to the school. We can't, basically, we just can't deal with that. We're gonna bring, the kids are gonna go home on the bus at the normal time, and you guys can explain to your kids how you see fit what's going on. Which kinda sucked, because we were like, I don't know how you explain this. I really don't know how to explain this.

• 28:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  To kids. Um, we told them the truth, you know, we, we, we just told them the truth. And we said, you know, this terrible thing happened, said what the thing was, and we said, but you guys are safe right now, you know, and, and we'll keep you safe. But even as I was saying that, I felt like I was lying, and that really... Was painful, like that was one of those moments as a parent where you're like, I can tell you you're safe, but after today, I don't know that I believe it. I don't believe it, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I feel like I'm lying to you right now and, and that really hurts.

• 28:46Ryan Holiday?

  No, you, you bring up a good point about the state of the world, which is like, you know, again, with some exceptions, but for the most part, like, technology has never been better, you know, like, the percentage of, of people who are doing well versus the percentage of people who are not doing well has probably never been better, you know, crime is, is down, you know, historically compared to, you know, the Middle Ages or whatever, right? Like, things are progressing wonderfully in all these ways. Then, yes, obviously weird things are happening in the news and in the world, but like, you spend a lot of time on Twitter, because I see you there, you, you interact with people and you're just like, what the fuck? Like, what, what is this world that I'm supposed to bring my kids into? What, what is wrong with people, right?

• 29:29Ryan Holiday?

  That is, it's like, it's a very strange, uh, and I wonder if those people are, you know, the, they're a reaction to what's happening in the world. They're like, it's easier just to be like this than to deal with the ambiguity and the uncertainty and the, the terror of it all.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Well, historically, we've never had access to this kind of information either, and that's part of what drives this.

• 29:55Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  The, the, the fear and, and the anxiety about the world is that we're, we just know so much more about what's going on in the world at any given time, and in the, in the back of our minds that every moment is the fact that the planet is basically dying and we're killing it. So that doesn't help.

• 30:16Ryan Holiday?

  No, it, it doesn't. Well, no, it's funny too, like, I remember when I was a kid, growing up in a sort of a conservative town, that the response to say like, the gay rights movement or whatever, was like, what am I supposed to tell my kids about this, right?

• 30:30Speaker 01

  Right.

• 30:30Ryan Holiday?

  And then, and then people seem to be remarkably, not, not all people, but those same people who are really concerned about, you know, insert, sort of, Private choice that people make in their private life, none of their business crap that they had to explain to their kids apparently, are like, not that upset about having to explain how 22 kids were murdered by a crazy person at their school, and don't feel any real moral imperative or guilt to be like, "And of course, we will do nothing about this."

• 31:04Speaker 01

  Right. Well, that's, you know, that is the schism in our country. There's a lot of private behavior that people get worked up about that I don't understand, and a lot of public behavior that I get worked up about that people don't want to seem to do anything about. I mean, the gun thing to me is just insanity, just insanity that we don't address this issue. And I, I, I can't for the life of me understand why we don't, but we don't.

• 31:46Ryan Holiday?

  And these are often people with children too. So it's not like, hey, we have two different, like, we have two different kinds of going through the world, and this issue that you're concerned about doesn't affect me. Like, we all worry about our kids. And like, the two guns, the planet, you know, the planet, these are things that affect everyone equally. And there's just this, the pandemic too, it's just like, I guess it's easier just to decide not to think about it.

• 32:17Speaker 01

  You know, I'm, I'm trying to be generous and say that the, the gun people believe that the best response to guns is more guns. And they, they believe that sincerely, that they would rather be armed and have everybody be armed, because to disarm is to invite...

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Chaos and violence. And I look at it from the exact opposite point of view and say, the fact that we're so heavily armed invites chaos and violence. And it's just, it's just a mindset that, that we can't, we like, we're just talking past each other constantly.

• 33:04Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's, it's very strange. And I say this as someone who, who owns guns, who hunts, who lives in, you know, in rural Texas. So I'm not like coming from this from some like sort of crazy extremist view. But when you're like, this is the only place that that happens. Like the only place in the world that that regularly happens. So there's the famous Onion article, like, what can we do, says country, you know, that's the only place in the world that this happens. And it's, it is weird. You know, like, we tell our kids that we have the best system of government in the world. We tell our kids, you can do anything you want, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then we just look at this like horrific, slow moving, constant train wreck. And we're just like, nothing you can do about.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  Nothing you can do. Yeah. And it's just not true. We, I mean, we know empirically, it's not true because as you said, this is the only place where it regularly happens. And we can look at the examples of other nations who have dealt with this issue and dealt with it successfully. It may be that at this point in our nation's history, we are so soaked in blood that it would be harder for us to deal with it than any other nation. That being said, that's not an excuse not to try. And the fact that we don't try to me is unconscionable.

• 34:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you know, there's that quote, like, if you're not a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. And if you're not a conservative, when you're older, you have no brain.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 34:31Ryan Holiday?

  I love, I love the almost, you know, there's that say it, say the quiet part out loud thing. Like where you're basically saying that as, as you become an adult, your heart should harden and you should care less about other people and other things. I love like the, the implicitness of that is so striking to me. That people will say it and not realize what they're copping to and how common that is.

• 35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think they're saying, you know, when you're young, you want to do what you can for the world. And when you're older, you're basically like, let me just get mine.

• 35:14Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, when you're older, you have your retirement to protect.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  It's atrocious. I'm trying to think if I've become more conservative as I've gotten older. Trying to think if that's true in any way, shape or form. I think the answer is no.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  I think the answer is no. It's possible. I think my views have shifted. It maybe becomes somewhat more nuanced.

• 35:39Ryan Holiday?

  And I don't think we mean that politically. It's not like, do you become more Democrat or more Republican?

• 35:43Speaker 01

  No, no, no.

• 35:43Ryan Holiday?

  It's like, are you more, like, I think about this, I think this is an area where it's, it's, it's much more clearly nonpartisan and thus illustrative, which is like, if you ask the young person, how do you solve like, the housing crisis? You're like, well, obviously we have to build a lot more houses. These people need somewhere to live, right?

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 36:02Ryan Holiday?

  And then as you get older and you own a house, you're like, well, I don't want them to build an apartment complex near me. Can't they build it somewhere else? Like, I just watched this lovely little town that I'm, I live in, not, they, they wanted to build a, an apartment thing, partly low income, but not like slums or anything, like, supposed to be like, I don't know, 500 units of housing or something. And they're like, this is in our, this is in our historic core. And I was like, it's next to an auto zone. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know?

• 36:32Speaker 01

  This is our- But a historic auto zone.

• 36:35Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, this is our-

• 36:36Speaker 01

  That's what you're not appreciating.

• 36:37Ryan Holiday?

  This is the historic tire changing district of our, of our rural town. And, and like, obviously, I get it. Look, it would cause more traffic. It's probably, certainly whatever this empty field is, is green, you know, part of the year, I get that. But, like, you get to a point where you're thinking, well, I don't want, your desire to not be caught in traffic means more to you than the-

• 37:03Ryan Holiday?

  Uh, unseen, but very real suffering of people who can't afford to live anywhere. And thus, you know, uh, you've got six people jammed in a one bedroom apartment or what like, like this sort of uns- the invisible suffering that your indifference or your selfishness creates, I think goes back to that emotionally cauterized place. You're like, that would be bad for this other thing that I kind of care about. And so you're able not to think about it.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  You know, you just made me think of a study that I feel like I've seen.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  And I don't even know if it's true, but I feel like there was, I've seen the results published all over the place online, whether or not the actual study exists. I'm going to look it up. Let me see.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  But it, but the gist of it is that conservatives in general are happier. And I wonder, so let me see where the, where this originally stems from. Why are conservatives happier than liberals by Jamie Napier of NYU and John Jost of NYU? Conservatives are happier than liberals from the University of Florida and University of Rochester. So just assuming that, uh, without reading the science behind it, just assuming it's correct. I wonder if it is partially because as a conservative, meaning in, in, you know.

• 38:28Ryan Holiday?

  Resistant to change, et cetera.

• 38:29Speaker 01

  Resistant to change. Well, conservative in this country does mean something specific. They would probably disagree with this, but, but, but I, I have a hard time. I have a hard time expand, finding the definition of American conservative that doesn't include a kind of me first philosophy.

• 38:52Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 38:52Speaker 01

  Me, not only me first, but me, me first, and often to the exclusion of others.

• 38:58Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, my group first.

• 39:00Speaker 01

  My group first.

• 39:00Ryan Holiday?

  Win, lose.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  If you can embrace that.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  And I could certainly see the temptation to embrace that. It seems like you might be happier because you don't have to saddle other people's problems or worries onto your back. You don't feel burdened by the fact that there are six people living in that apartment and that we could do something about it. But if we've got this cool open space next to the Autozone, and traffic could increase, why do I want to mess with that? Like, they're not my problem.

• 39:36Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  I can absolutely understand that. And I can understand why conservatives, if we use this sort of horrible definition that I've outlined, why they would be happier. I would be happier too if I didn't really concern myself with anything other than myself.

• 39:55Ryan Holiday?

  No, and look, this goes back to parenting too, right? Like, if you're one of the parents, like, I've made this distinction between like, having kids and being a parent. Like, having kids is not that hard, right? Well, obviously, everyone can do it. There's a financial burden and it does take a lot of time. But like, being a parent is, to me, like, actually feeling all those things, doing all those things, taking it very seriously. And the reason that's more stressful is that it means you never really feel like you're doing a good enough job. You really, it really hits you hard when you screw up.

• 40:36Ryan Holiday?

  There's a tension between like, what you want to do and what the right thing is. I saw a quote from Matthew McConaughey and he was saying, he's like, also, like, when you actually really love your kids and care about it, it's like, it's harder to say no, because like, you want, you want to give them whatever they want, right? And you can afford it. And so, like, you're having to say no and then feel that like, you're responsible for the no. It's not like, no, we can't afford it. It's like, no, I'm not allowing you to have. So, being a parent makes this hard thing, like, much harder because you have to feel all of it. Again, as opposed to just like, I had the kids, I work hard, I paid for it.

• 41:19Ryan Holiday?

  Like, you didn't die, I did my job.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's true. I mean, I think parenting, really parenting is, is just tough, dirty.

• 41:32Speaker 01

  Work. I mean, it's a slog. A lot of the time, the rewards aren't always obvious. You know, when you're going through it in the moment, you know, the rewards of, you know, cleaning up, you know, diarrhea that's so profound, it has shot up the top of the diaper. Like, you know, those moments aren't always like, you know, I just, I just love my kids. You know, if anything, the opposite, there, I hate my kids, I resent doing this, I'm exhausted, and I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. But you persist in it because you are invested in this life that you are responsible for.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  And when those moments come, those moments of, oh yeah, you turned out okay, or you did something on your own, it sounds simplistic to say it feels worth it. It's something beyond that. It's, um, I feel like I've done something that's good for the world. Like, you've brought somebody, you've helped shape somebody who's going to be good for the world. And, you know, it's not about your own greatness, it's not about your own genetics, it's not about any of that. It's legacy-making. It's, you almost feel like I've done something like, as a human, that fulfills my role as a human.

• 43:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  And that's not to say that you can't fulfill your role as a human without having kids. Of course you can. But having kids is one way of doing that. And parenting them and raising them to the best of your ability is certainly an obvious way to do that.

• 43:21Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, you quote that Michael Chabon parenting book, which I also like. He has a line in there about, he's writing his first book or something, and someone says, "Every kid you have is a book you won't write." And he's sort of reflecting, he wrote an article about it, sort of reflecting on it later, and he's like, "It's a good trait."

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course it's a good trade.

• 43:45Ryan Holiday?

  Of course, but it feels, that feel to, that feels like powerful logic, but it actually like, you're way, it's worth way more to you. And first off, I think it's a bullshit.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  It's horrendous logic.

• 43:58Ryan Holiday?

  It's, it's actually not true also, right? Like it's, it's bullshit. And there's plenty of super productive, super talented people who have done awesome stuff while having kids. But so what? Picasso had six extra paintings. He's fucking dead. Who cares?

• 44:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm of the opinion, I mean, look, it would be perfectly fine for this world if no more books were written. We've got enough books.

• 44:34Ryan Holiday?

  Probably, yes.

• 44:34Speaker 01

  You know, it wouldn't be okay for this world, or at least for humanity, if no more children were brought into it. At a certain point, we're going to run out of humans. We're not going to run out of books. But more than just the math of it, you know, you can't argue with biological imperatives. You can't really argue with your DNA. And for most of us, life wants to create life and, you know, and you feel good when you do it. I, I feel pretty good about having helped raise a couple of kids. And I imagine if you are a, an adoptive parent, it's the same thing.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  You feel exactly the same. You've, you've raised life. You've brought life into this world. It's just kind of who we are. And, and, and I, I was never somebody who was like, I need to have kids. I, I, even when, even when like my wife and I were having kids, we weren't like, oh, this is really gonna, this is really gonna, you know, make us as people. It was sort of like, well, we'll probably have kids at some point. So maybe we should try now, you know, and then we'll be done when we're still pretty young. Like they'll, they'll be grown, you know, and we'll be able to get our lives back. Like that was our attitude going into it. But having been a parent, you know, all the cliches about it are true. And it's not worth going into them, but they're all true, you know?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  It's just, it is the greatest thing you'll ever do. And, and.

• 46:09Speaker 01

  As horrible as it is sometimes, and it can be horrible at times. It's the fact of the, the fact of the pain almost proves its greatness. Like i- if the pain weren't so acute at times, i- i- it's sort of like the pain proves that, that, that it's, that it's a good thing that you're doing. You wouldn't care, you wouldn't experience the pain if you didn't care, if you weren't so invested in it, if, if, if it wasn't your whole life. The pain, you know, the pain would be minimal at best. You'd be like, well, you broke your leg. Hey, that sucks for you, kid. You know, I'm really sorry about that. You know, you're suffering because you're being bullied in school. Ah, geez, you know, suck it up, deal with it, kid. You know, but that, that's not the pain you feel.

• 46:53Speaker 01

  You feel like real horrible pain when your kid suffers.

• 46:57Ryan Holiday?

  I think about this when people are like, we're not going to have kids because of climate change, or we're not going to have kids, like, we don't want to get married until gay people are allowed to get married, or whatever that thing. It's like, you're, I, I appreciate the stand, right? I appreciate that, that, that you care about this, but that's like precisely why you should do it, because like we need more people like you to do it, right? Like, because look, awful people are, they're just not even thinking about it. They're just breathing away, uh, you know, not caring about, like, like, if you want to talk about multi-generational impact, like, think about, think about the impact that your grandparents had, like, through your, like, good or bad, right? You're like, my grandfather was a drunk, which is why my father was a bitter, angry

• 47:41Ryan Holiday?

  man, which is why I am in therapy today, or whatever it is. Like, that's the amount of impact that a person can have. And sure, like, it's wonderful to make comedy or to write books or whatever. Like, I, I, I listened to this interview with, with Sean Lennon one time, and people, he's like, people come, come up, he's like, people come up to me all the time, and they're like, you have no idea what your dad's music meant to be. And he was like, He was my dad. I know like a thousand times more what his music meant to you because he was only in my life for a few years and I know what he meant to me, right? And so like if you want to, I think we, it can be very easy to let your ego convince you that your work is terribly, terribly important.

• 48:26Ryan Holiday?

  But chances are what you do at home or the relationship you even have with whoever your spouse is will have a more tangible lasting impact on a real person than any of your creative work.

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Well, I think, I don't know if I said it in this book or another book, but it's like, I don't give a shit about my work outliving me in any way, shape or form. I don't give a shit about like professional legacy because when you think about like the billions of people who have ever lived, almost, you know, almost all of us are forgotten immediately.

• 49:07Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  And what's the best you can possibly hope for in terms of your legacy? Like a sixth grader writes a book report on you one day? Like they're shitty writers, you know, like that's, that's like the best, you know, some, some sixth grader somewhere is writing a book report on Julius Caesar and it's a shitty book report and that's Julius Caesar's legacy, you know?

• 49:32Ryan Holiday?

  But that's one of the, so Marcus Aurelius in Meditations, he's, he's the, he's that guy. He has Julius Caesar's job, right? And he's writing this diary to himself and he's like, he's, he's talking about Alexander the Great, Julius, then not Julius Caesar, but he's like, do you know what it means to Alexander the Great? Nothing. He's dead. Like he's not around. And, and he's like, even if he was, he's like, people are still stupid and annoying. It's the same people, right? You know, like, like, um, and, and that's the irony of course, is that he writes this work that 2,000 years later, like I quoted to you, but again, it doesn't do anything for him. He's dead. It does nothing for him. He died. He can't hear about it. It means nothing to him.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, that's just the truth, but like, what was his relationship like with his kids, you know?

• 50:21Ryan Holiday?

  His kids sucked. His kids sucked. If you've seen, if you've seen Gladiator, Joaquin Phoenix is playing Marcus Aurelius's actual son, probably underplaying it.

• 50:31Speaker 01

  Really?

• 50:32Ryan Holiday?

  Yes. That's one of the paradoxes was he's probably a psychopath, so maybe not his fault. But uh, he doesn't, he doesn't do a great job. Conversely, though, so Marcus Aurelius is not chosen to be emperor. His stepfather or the Emperor Hadrian selects this man Antoninus, who in turn has to adopt Marcus Aurelius. But so basically Marcus Aurelius, his stepfather, this guy Antoninus, who, you know, probably could have killed him if he wanted to. Instead decides like, I'm going to adopt this kid. And he does like the greatest job ever. So it's kind of, it's an interesting contrast, right? Like the positive impact someone can have. And then potentially the hole that someone can leave or also sometimes how it doesn't go our way.

• 51:16Ryan Holiday?

  But it is, uh, when I think about the ancient world, talk about an emotionally cauterized state. Marcus Aurelius has 11 or 12 children. Half of them die before adulthood. Like when you read about the past and you think like, obviously they cared about their kids the same amount. Like they, you know, like, obviously it's a little different, but like, it's very difficult not to be entranced by the sweetness and the cuteness of a child, particularly your own. And then just the regularity with which they would inexplicably die. What that, no wonder we were so awful to each other back then. Think of what the world was doing to us.

• 51:57Ryan Holiday?

  I think that helps explain slavery and capital punishment and lynchings and wars and all like, people were just horribly traumatized all the time. And thus much less concerned about inflicting trauma on other people.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  That's interesting. I mean, have there been studies done on the drop in infant mortality over time versus?

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Civil liberties, social progress, uh, and the rest.

• 52:27Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, on paper, it lines up, right? Like if you

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Steve Pink, right?

• 52:31Ryan Holiday?

  Steven Pinker's book on the decline of violence over time. Certainly the 20th century, although you could, one of the, again, tragic parts about America, you know, talking about Roe v. Wade, America, you know, wants to go backwards on reproductive rights, meanwhile, has an appallingly high infant mortality rate because we don't take care of poor parents who are struggling and we just go figure it out, you know, even though we could easily afford to address that. And so I wonder if that is also rooted in some of our violence and our dysfunction in other ways.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting. I mean, we do have it. We have an appallingly high infant mortality rate among very select groups of people because if you, if you, I'm sure if you look at the, you know, let's say, top 30% of income earners in this country, the infant mortality rate lines up with every other

• 53:24Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 53:24Speaker 01

  advanced nation.

• 53:25Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, it's, it's basically, it goes back to what we're just talking about. I have what I need. Why should I care that you don't?

• 53:32Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 53:34Ryan Holiday?

  And you should care because it shamefully indicts you.

• 53:38Speaker 01

  It also fucks up your country. I mean,

• 53:41Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  It's so short sighted, but when we allow persistent unhappiness, to use a very sort of vague word, but I think an apt word, when we allow persistent unhappiness among large swaths of our population, of course, it comes back to bite you in the ass.

• 53:59Ryan Holiday?

  Sure.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  In terms of violence or urban blight or whatever, when people are unhappy, they do shitty things.

• 54:09Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, I mean, you, you say you care about your kids and then you set them up a generation from now. To meet those other kids, right? Because the terrible part about how stratified America is, is they're not probably going to go to the same school as your kids.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 54:27Ryan Holiday?

  They're not going to swim in the same public swimming pool as your kids, right? Because you've already nipped all that.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  You've got a pool.

• 54:34Ryan Holiday?

  Nipped all that in the butt. Yeah, you've avoided that.

• 54:36Speaker 01

  You've got a pool or you've got a country club.

• 54:38Ryan Holiday?

  But eventually, they're going to meet your kid in a dark alley, right? Or like, when they overthrow the, the system of government that has neglected them for far too, like, eventually, those consequences come home to roost with the people that you claim to care the most about.

• 54:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, reality has an unfortunate way of bitch-slapping you. It just does.

• 55:01Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  You know, I was watching a YouTube explainer on income inequality in the Netherlands, and, not income inequality, wealth inequality. And they were explaining the difference between income inequality and wealth inequality, and how there's a fair amount of wealth inequality in the Netherlands. But generally speaking, the population is, as we all know, happier, healthier, taken care of, they've got all these systems in place. And the narrator of it was saying, the wealth inequality is worse in the Netherlands than

• 55:44Speaker 01

  it is in Ethiopia, but you'd rather be in the bottom 10% of Dutch citizens than the top 10% of Ethiopian citizens, because your quality of life is so much better.

• 55:54Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, no, no, of course. Just like you'd rather be alive today than be a king in the 1500s.

• 56:00Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Although, if you love grouse, maybe you'd rather be a king in the 1500s.

• 56:08Ryan Holiday?

  I mean, I think it's John Rawls, he talks about the, the sort of invisible veil, the philosophy is like, you have to think about these policy decisions, or how the world is set up, or the actions you take. As if its impact was going to be randomly distributed and you didn't get to choose how you received it, right? Which seems like a really basic, but is actually a pretty revolutionary way to think about it. Because again, we tend to think about like, hey, I don't want this low-income apartment complex in my neighborhood because I have an expensive house up the street that I'm over-leveraged on and it's going to make it worth less, or it's going to, you know, make my commute to work 30 minutes later.

• 56:50Ryan Holiday?

  But if you thought about it from, hey, I don't know, maybe, maybe someday I'm a future recipient or my kids are a future recipient of low-income housing, you're like, fuck it, build it, build a lot of it, right? And so you do have to, you do have to, it's, you know, we, it's not what's in it for me, but like, what's in it for people, right? So it's like, I've made this distinction too. Like, I think too often we think about things in terms of like, our kids instead of kids, right? So like, when people are like, we should, I, I forget who said this, but they're like, to go to the pool thing. They're like, when, when people used to say, we should build a pool for the kids, they meant like a rec center pool. That's what that used to mean.

• 57:33Ryan Holiday?

  Although historically in the United States, that would have been for a certain color of people.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Right, for the white kids.

• 57:39Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  So that's for the pool for the white kids.

• 57:41Ryan Holiday?

  That's, that's different than today, which is, let's build a pool in our backyard with a high wrought iron fence around it, so nobody but our family can use it.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. I mean, this country in particular has a terrible time with just the notion of community. And it seems to be getting worse.

• 58:04Ryan Holiday?

  It does. Well, the, the last, the last thing I wanted to talk about in the book, because this is my favorite chapters, you were sort of talking about not just vulnerability, but like, asking for help. Because that does seem to be a part of the sort of masculine, the masculinity you're talking about, which is, it's not just, hey, I don't want to admit that I have feelings, but I don't want to admit I don't know something, I don't want to admit I'm struggling with something, I don't want to admit that I need help on something. How have you thought about that in your own life? And then how have you thought about that with your kids? Because that, that seems like a very underrated skill. Like, help me with this, please.

• 58:43Speaker 01

  The, I think the line I have in the book, which is sort of half joking, but half serious, is the three most difficult words for a man to say are not, "I love you," they're, "I need help." Mm-hmm. And it's certainly been true in my case, where to admit that I'm struggling, to admit that I need help with something, it is, it's, it's almost painful. I mean, I, I, I experienced that sensation as pain, that idea of, "I'm lost on the road, and I have to go and speak to the gas station clerk about where I'm going."

• 59:28Speaker 01

  Like, that's a physically painful activity for me to have to do. I've started reframing the way I think about manhood with this very idea in mind. The idea that, specifically as a father, how are you supposed to model empathy and compassion and love if you yourself are cut off from receiving empathy, compassion, and love? You have to, and to, so to do that, to be able to receive that stuff, you have to be able to drop your guard and say, "I'm in pain. I'm suffering. I need help.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  I'm vulnerable." And the way I reframe it is to think about the kind of strength, as a guy, it requires to be able to admit those things. It requires a certain amount of balls to say, "I'm really struggling here. I'm in pain here." I need your help. I need your compassion. And accepting love for a guy, I think, is much harder than giving love. Giving love, I think, is, in a way, easy. We can express love in a lot of ways.

• 1:00:56Speaker 01

  We can go out and get a job and earn money and bring it home. And we can go out and, you know, kill an animal and put food on the table. We can give gifts. We can say the words. We can express it physically. But accepting somebody else's love is really hard for a guy because it necessitates lowering our defenses. And that's the hardest thing. That's the hardest thing for men to do, is just opening up the porticus and saying, "Come on in." Because we guard our castles pretty tightly.

• 1:01:30Ryan Holiday?

  There's a kid's book. It would have been too late for your kids, but it's actually quite beautiful. It's called The Boy, the Fox, the Horse, and the Mole. It's like this little fable. And one of the pages that I like to share with my kids, he says, "Asking for help isn't giving up. It's refusing to give up." Right? So it's weird, too, that we see it not only as a weakness, but that we don't see it as the obvious strength that it is. Right? Because like, if you refuse to accept help, if you refuse to admit you don't know something, if you refuse to collaborate or let people in, you're actually much weaker. Like, you're much less capable of doing things. Like, if you think you... One of the Stoics says, "You can't learn that which you think you already know."

• 1:02:15Ryan Holiday?

  And so like, if you aren't willing to ask, if you have closed yourself up, if you preemptively push people away, like, you won't get those things. And those things are valuable.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, the most valuable, I would say. We... Because...

• 1:02:34Speaker 01

  You know, what creates value is scarcity and rareness. And we are already filled to the brim with our own bullshit. So that has no value for us.

• 1:02:46Ryan Holiday?

  Yes.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  It's much more valuable to bring in somebody else's wisdom, experience, help, love and compassion.

• 1:02:53Ryan Holiday?

  When the irony is like when your kids ask for help on stuff, you're not like, what a fucking loser. You love it. It's the greatest thing in the whole world and it brings you, it brings you closer. Like it's wonderful. And then you refuse to open yourself up to that gift yourself.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah, that's perfectly said.

• 1:03:13Ryan Holiday?

  It's crazy. Yeah, I do. There is this, obviously, when people hear the word stoicism, they think sort of stoically enduring, you know, things in sort of the solitary way. But one of my favorite passages in Meditations, he says, um, you're like soldier, you're like a soldier storming a wall. So what if you have to reach up to a comrade for help? Like, that's what we're here for. And I think it goes in both directions. Obviously, we're here to help other people. So if people need help, you not only should give it when asked, but you should offer it unsolicited. But that like, you're not like harming the unit by not asking for help.

• 1:03:54Ryan Holiday?

  In fact, if you just stay down there, like not accomplishing the mission because you're afraid of looking weak, that actually is cowardice. Like, that is harming other people and of course yourself.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  And just for like a day to daily basis, we know how good it feels when we help somebody else. Like, why deny, why deny that to other people, you know?

• 1:04:20Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah, yeah. You're like, your friends, they're like, hey, could you help me with this? I'm sorry to bother you. And you're like, it's not a bother at all. And then you're like, I just, I don't want to bother them with this. Like, you know how it is with you. Or like, I think about this too, like when, when people ask for your help, unless you're a jerk, you're not like, you don't berate them for it, you know, you help them. But, but then, but then you're afraid that if you ask for help, they're going to berate you. And it's like.

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:04:50Ryan Holiday?

  What are you, what are you, what are you making up about this person? And if it is true, why are you friends with them in the first place? Why are you married to this person? If you think this is, my wife points this out to me sometimes when I, when we get in arguments, I'm mad about it. She's like, think about what the assumption you've made here says about me. And tell me one time that that has ever been like remotely close to my character. And then I'm like, yeah, of course, you're right. But that's what, that's the weird thing our head does.

• 1:05:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, because we're idiots.

• 1:05:24Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, that's, that's right. That's right. But we can be better, right? That's the, that's the whole point. Uh, and hopefully, hopefully we make our kids a little better.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. And, and, uh, at the same time, they make us better, too. That's, that's an undervalued part of parenting.

• 1:05:43Ryan Holiday?

  Yes, yes. Did you, have you read The Road?

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  Uh, the Cormac McCarthy book?

• 1:05:47Ryan Holiday?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:48Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:05:48Ryan Holiday?

  You haven't?

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  Oh, wait, let me take that back. I have read The Road. It's the only Cormac McCarthy book I've read. I just reflexively said no, because every time I pick up a Cormac McCarthy book, I'm like, I don't get it. I can't do it. But I have read The Road, yes.

• 1:06:01Ryan Holiday?

  Well, no, he talks about carrying the fire, like the kid is carrying, that's what I think kids are. But I also think like helping kids with it keeps the fire in, like, I know I've become a sweeter, nicer, more caring person because I have kids, because they've rekindled it in me, right? Because I'm not the same selfish, self-absorbed, you know, man-child that I would have otherwise been.

• 1:06:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. We, we owe a debt of gratitude to our children for improving us as people.

• 1:06:30Ryan Holiday?

  Well said. Well, Michael, thank you so much.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

• 1:06:38Ryan Holiday?

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.