It Can’t Think About You | How to Be a Better Friend, According to the Stoics

These are impersonal forces. This is fortune and fate. It’s not targeting you. It’s not favoring or picking on you. 🎟️ DAILY STOIC LIVE | Ryan Holiday is coming to a city near you! Grab tickets here | https://www.dailystoiclive.com/🎙️ AD-FREE | Support the podcast and go deeper into Stoicism by subscribing to The Daily Stoic Premium - unlock ad-free listening, early access, and bonus content: https://dailystoic.supercast.com/🎥 VIDEO EPISODES| Watch the video episodes on The Daily Stoic YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@DailyStoic/videos✉️ FREE STOIC WISDOM | Want Stoic wisdom delivered to your inbox daily? Sign up for the FREE Daily Stoic email at https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ryan Holiday?

  Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast, designed to help bring those four key Stoic virtues, courage, discipline, justice, and wisdom into the real world.

• 0:14Ryan Holiday?

  It can't think about you. It does so much damage. It sets us back so much. It's something we desperately don't want to happen. So yeah, we think about it a lot. We fret about it a lot. We dread it a lot. But it's worth remembering, as we said recently, about toxic people, that these things aren't thinking about you at all. Just as a Nero is not thinking about Seneca, the economy is not thinking about you. This drought is not scheming to disrupt your plans. The airport isn't trying to make you miss your flight unless you're meeting and therefore screw up your career. The highway doesn't care. Neither does gravity or cancer. These are impersonal forces. They are inanimate objects. This is fortune and fate. It's not targeting you.

• 0:59Ryan Holiday?

  It's not favoring or picking on you. We have to figure out how to deal with them without turning our minds over to them. We can't let them steal our focus or our happiness. We can't let them consume our every waking second. And most importantly, as Mark Schriles writes in Meditations, I love the Hayes translation. You may have heard me mention that, I don't know, once or twice. The point is, we can't let these inhuman forces steal our humanity. These things are indifferent to you, and your goal is to be a little more indifferent to them.

• 1:41Ryan Holiday?

  Hey, it's Ryan. Welcome to the Daily Stoic Podcast. You know, there's this stereotype of the Stoics as unfeeling and withdrawn, unfun. But friendship is a theme that runs throughout the Stoic writings. And in fact, one of the most powerful images we get from the Stoics is rooted in friendship. Seneca says, "You know you're making progress in this philosophy when you become a better friend to yourself." But you think about Seneca's letters, who's he writing to? He's writing to his friend Lucilius. You can't open Marcus Aurelius's Meditations and read Part One, Debts and Lessons, and not see how this man was shaped by so many different relationships.

• 2:24Ryan Holiday?

  People who taught him, people whom he loved. When you read his letters to his retor teacher franto, you go, man, this relationship has transcended like teacher and student, and they've become very close friends. And that's because, what kind of life is it if you are alone? If you are disconnected, if you do not have friends, and if you are not a friend yourself? So that's what we're going to talk about in today's episode. We did a deep dive over at Daily Stoic for some Stoic tips for being a great friend. I did not read this one. I worked on the article, but I didn't have time to do the audio. It was narrated by Kat Pichik, and I hope this episode inspires you to show up as a great friend to yourself and to others,

• 3:08Ryan Holiday?

  because that is, in many ways, the meaning of life. It is the secret to a good life. And while our friends might not always be great friends to us, we can strive to be great friends ourselves. That's something that's always in our control. That's what we're talking about in today's episode. So here's some Stoic tips on being a great friend. Be a great friend, have great friends. Talk to you soon.

• 3:35Speaker 01

  When we think of great Stoic figures like Marcus Aurelius, Cato, and Epictetus, we tend to focus solely on the individual, their perspective, their observations. But how did these brilliant thinkers treat those around them? We know from historical accounts that Marcus ruled the people of Rome with reason, and Cato earned the respect of his troops by sleeping in the trenches with them. Even so, out of all the Stoics that we read today, there's only one who gave us such comprehensive insight into how they spoke and acted towards their dearest friends. Seneca's Letters from a Stoic are nothing more than a series of deep conversations he had with a close friend.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Each letter covering a different topic or merely expanding upon what was said in earlier letters. The collection of correspondence certainly gives us more insight into Seneca himself, but it also raises as many questions as it answers. What does it mean to be a good friend? How does one go about maintaining meaningful friendships and discarding the ones that aren't in our best interest to keep? Lucky for us, philosophers like the Stoics mentioned above have already wrestled with these ideas. Here are several tips from our Stoic forefathers on how to have more genuine, meaningful, and timeless friendships. The Importance of Judgment If you consider any man a friend whom you do not trust as you trust yourself, you are

• 5:03Speaker 01

  mightily mistaken and you do not sufficiently understand what true friendship means. When friendship is settled, you must trust. Before friendship is formed, you must pass judgment. Ponder for a long time whether you shall admit a given person to your friendship, but when you have decided to admit him, welcome him with all your heart and soul. Seneca, Letters from a Stoic The ability to judge situations and people is an evolutionary gift. It wouldn't be beneficial for us to immediately trust every person we meet, as this would surely lead to being taken advantage of. Choosing a friend should, in many ways, be similar to the way you answer your door. When you hear a knock, you don't open for just anyone.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  For some, you leave it closed. For others, you may open the door but guard it nonetheless. Finally, there are those you let in. Only those who have consistently demonstrated their trustworthiness should be allowed to enter. Whether it's your home or your heart, the same rules apply. It's important to note that we get better at making accurate judgments with time. Stoics called this "oikiosis," which can be translated as appropriation or familiarization. We all begin life with an untainted understanding of what is good and bad. We seek what is pleasurable and avoid what is painful. The Stoics believed that with time, we could learn to refine our sense of good and make more accurate assessments about the natural world.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Of course, it will take time, and we won't always judge correctly. The friends that we properly judge, though, will remain in our lives forever.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Don't be, or befriend, the fair-weather friend.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  He who regards himself only, and enters upon friendships for this reason, reckons wrongly. The end will be like the beginning: he has made friends with one who might assist him out of bondage. At the first rattle of the chain, such a friend will desert him. These are the so-called "fair-weather friendships." One who is chosen for the sake of utility will be satisfactory only so long as he is useful. He who begins to be your friend because it pays, will also cease because it pays. A man will be attracted by some reward offered in exchange for his friendship, if he be attracted by aught in friendship other than friendship itself. Seneca, Letters from a Stoic We all know what the fair-weather friend looks like.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  You share a common interest that you engage in together. You communicate here and there. It looks like friendship, it feels like friendship, but when the hardships of life come storming about, these same friends are nowhere to be found.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  We need people we can rely on in times of crisis. It's why trust is such an important prerequisite to friendship. Not to mention, if we use someone for the sake of their utility, or merely as a means to some end, we aren't living up to our guiding principle of "summum bonum", meaning, we aren't living up to the values that are supposed to be embedded in everything we do. The Stoics would undoubtedly be in favor of seeking friendship because it is inherently good, not because it's useful. A good friend is always there when someone needs them. They don't shy away from tragedy or think themselves better than the person who needs their comfort. A good friend is there, period.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  Not only should we look for this quality in our current group of friends, but also in ourselves. Progress comes first. Above all, keep a close watch on this: That you are never so tied to your former acquaintances and friends that you are pulled down to their level. If you don't, you'll be ruined. You must choose whether to be loved by these friends and remain the same person, or to become a better person at the cost of those friends. If you try to have it both ways, you will neither make progress nor keep what you once had. Epictetus, Discourses. One of the hardest aspects of friendship is recognizing when it's time to let go. Sometimes a dear friend may still be trustworthy and loyal,

• 9:21Speaker 01

  but their actions towards others and the world around them no longer align with your morals. In such a case, we're faced with two choices: Either we maintain the friendship at the cost of our personal growth, or we end it at the cost of our friendship with that person. In the former scenario, we choose to keep ourselves from progressing. In the latter scenario, we make a difficult choice in support of our values. The stoic response to this situation would utilize the idea of preferred indifference, which in the context of friendship would look something like this: You should neither be overly upset nor overly joyous at the loss of a friend. Instead, you should be indifferent, fine either way.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  For the friends we keep, we get to enjoy what is hopefully a lifetime of companionship. For those we decide to let go, we are doing so in support of our values and personal growth. What does this mean? That we are free to embrace and cultivate any friendship we like, so long as it doesn't compromise our morals. Embrace the beauty of sharing. Nothing will ever please me, no matter how excellent or beneficial, if I must retain the knowledge of it to myself. And if wisdom were given to me under the express condition that it must be kept hidden and not uttered, I should refuse it. No good thing is pleasant to possess without friends to share it. Seneca, Letters from a Stoic

• 10:49Speaker 01

  If you think about some of the happiest moments in your life, chances are those memories involve people you care about. Maybe it's the night you ask the love of your life to marry you, or the day you secured your dream job and celebrated with friends and family. No matter the occasion, one thing is for certain: the best things in life are meant to be shared. Next time you're about to do something, or anything really, try bringing a friend. It doesn't matter if it's going on a big vacation, or simply binge-watching a new show on Netflix. Listen to the joy in their voice as you invite them and fully embrace the experience that you're about to share. You'll find that Seneca, as per usual, was right about this as well.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Thou art mortal, and so are they.

• 11:37Speaker 01

  Whenever you kiss your child, sibling, or friend, don't layer on top of the experience all the things you might wish, but hold them back and stop them, just as those who ride behind triumphant generals remind them they are mortal. In the same way, remind yourself that your precious one isn't one of your possessions, but something given for now, not forever. Epictetus, Discourses The concept of memento mori is well-known to the Stoic community. We wear necklaces that bear the saying, and keep skull-shaped coins in our pockets, and for what purpose? To remind us that our time is limited, that what we do matters. While the mantra is designed

• 12:18Speaker 01

  to remind us of our own mortality, we often forget that this also applies to everyone we know. Ask yourself, would you treat your friends the same way you do now if you knew they wouldn't be here tomorrow? It's not that we don't treat our friends well because we're mean spirited, but we certainly lose sight of the shortness of life. We overestimate how much time we have left with the people we care about. The way we treat others in each moment could be the last thing we ever do. We're all good at applying memento mori to ourselves in our own life, but it's in our best interest to keep this in mind during interactions with friends as well. If we can remember to treat our companions as if they could be gone at any moment,

• 13:01Speaker 01

  we'll be far less inclined to take them for granted. Seek balance, not control. Love the discipline you know and let it support you. Entrust everything willingly to the gods and then make your way through life. No one's master and no one's slave. Marcus Aurelius, Meditations 431. At the center of Stoic thought is the idea that we have to understand what we can and cannot control. Perhaps the most difficult thing to accept is that we can't control other people. We've all had those friends who always want to be in charge and boss people around. They're the ones who make the plans and change them as they please.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  In group settings and competitive environments, they're almost unbearable to be around. Almost. Being in pursuit of balance, we should never play this game. We should never seek to control other people, nor should we allow ourselves to be controlled. Instead, we should be mindful of the way we conduct ourselves and accepting of the way that others are.

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Some of the greatest pain we feel comes from our desire to change things about a person we can't possibly change. What should we be doing? Leading by example and allowing our character to serve as a guide for our friends who don't always act with our same level of self-control. Who we choose to spend our time with is a reflection of our character and our ability to judge others. As you begin to assess those around you and the friends you spend time with, reflect on who helps you grow and who holds you back. Who can you call at 3:00 in the morning on a weekday and they'll be at your door in a moment's notice? Who can you depend on to lift your spirits when you feel like there's no way up?

• 14:46Speaker 01

  Whatever your answer may be, friendship is one of life's greatest gifts. To have people to depend on in times of crisis and share wonderful memories with is valuable in and of itself. Whether we realize there are friends we need to let go or friends we need to work harder to keep, one thing is for certain: there is work to be done.