Actor Alexander Ludwig on How Stoicism Helped Him Get Sober

Ryan speaks with Alexander Ludwig about how studying Stoicism gave him the discipline to quit drinking, the power of surrendering to the moment, pursuing mastery of the crafts of acting and songwriting, the mindset he has maintained while navigating his career, and more. Alexander Ludwig is a Canadian actor and country musician. He is most known for his starring and supporting roles in the History Channel series Vikings and the films Bad Boys for Life, Lone Survivor, The Hunger Games, and Race to Witch Mountain. He currently stars on the series Heels. He began his acting career in commercials at the age of nine and moved into movie work shortly thereafter. As a musician, Ludwig released his self-titled EP in 2021, and then his debut album Highway 99 in 2022 via BBR Music Group. Ludwig has also participated in competitive freestyle skiing. ✉️ Sign up for the Daily Stoic email: https://dailystoic.com/dailyemail🏛 Check out the Daily Stoic Store for Stoic inspired products, signed books, and more.📱 Follow us: Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, FacebookSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info. 📢 Share | ⚙️ Manage Subscription

• 0:03Speaker 00

  Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Stoic. Each weekday, we bring you a meditation inspired by the ancient Stoics, something to help you live up to those four Stoic virtues of courage, justice, temperance, and wisdom. And then here on the weekend, we take a deeper dive into those same topics. We interview Stoic philosophers. We explore at length how these Stoic ideas can be applied to our actual lives and the challenging issues of our time. Here on the weekend, when you have a little bit more space, when things have slowed down, be sure to take some time to think, to go for a walk, to sit with your journal,

• 0:46Speaker 00

  and most importantly, to prepare for what the week ahead may bring.

• 0:57Speaker 00

  Hey, it's Ryan Holiday. Welcome to another episode of the Daily Stoic Podcast. Regretfully, we will never have the real Cato on this podcast. We won't have Cato the Younger or his great-great-grandfather, Cato the Elder, the two towering Stoics of our time. But we can have today a guy who played a guy named Cato, a very talented and fascinating actor, recommended to me by a previous guest, Atticus, the poet, whose work I have been enjoying recently, whose work I've actually apparently enjoyed for a long time, but wasn't always aware of it. You may know him from the series Vikings. He currently stars in Heels, which my wife and I have been watching,

• 1:42Speaker 00

  a fascinating show about professional wrestling in the deep south. It reminds me kind of of where we live. He's been in 23 movies and three television series. He was Cato in The Hunger Games. He was also in Lone Survivor and Bad Boys for Life. He just released his first album, Highway 99, and his name is Alexander Ludwig. We have a fascinating conversation in today's episode about mastery, about craft, about...

• 2:14Speaker 00

  Sobriety and recovery, being in command of oneself. And we talk a bit about Cato as well. I was really looking forward to this conversation. I'm glad we got to do it in person. And without further ado, I will bring you that conversation. Check out Vikings, check out Heels, check him out on Twitter and Instagram, at Alexander Ludwig. And I believe he is a expectant or recent father by the time you are listening to this. So congratulations to him on that. I will send him a copy of The Daily Dad. He's a big fan of the books. And so we go deep into Stoicism and a bunch of other stuff. And I'll let you listen to that right now.

• 3:02Speaker 00

  So I heard Stoicism helped you quit drinking. Is that true?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  So, yeah, Stoicism has been, first off, not to pump your tires. You are my favorite author.

• 3:12Speaker 00

  Well, thank you.

• 3:13Speaker 01

  Hands down.

• 3:13Speaker 00

  I'll take it.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  Stoicism, to me, changed my life. And I'm not the kind of guy, and this is something that I need to continue to work on, that can just sit on a couch and read for hours.

• 3:25Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  So a lot of the books that I read, I read with my ears.

• 3:29Speaker 00

  Of course. Whatever, whatever works.

• 3:31Speaker 01

  But no, Stoicism has had a huge impact in my life.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  Do you remember how you found it?

• 3:41Speaker 01

  It, there was always like nuggets in other books that I read. Like, I loved like a lot of different self-improvement books or whatever. You'd find nuggets of it, and I love history.

• 3:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 3:50Speaker 01

  So every once in a while, I'd hear these things, like a quote from Aristotle, like, freedom is obedience to self-formulated rules, right? Or something like that. And you're just like, huh. And then you hear other things. And then it was really your books that introduced me on a whole nother level to it. And of course Duncan and myself, and Duncan Penn, who I think you had on this podcast, yeah, is somebody who I talk about it with all the time as well.

• 4:15Speaker 00

  Really?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  Interesting. All right. So walk me through, how does Stoicism help you get sober?

• 4:23Speaker 01

  So people think that rehab, people who haven't been,

• 4:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:29Speaker 01

  Is, it's like, I think they have this preconceived notion that, that there's like this pill they give you. And suddenly it, it just all goes away, you know? And you go to rehab and you come out and things are just fine.

• 4:43Speaker 01

  And what I realized it was for me, when I was there, is it's a deep dive into why we make the choices we make and why we're so self-destructive.

• 4:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 4:58Speaker 01

  As human beings. And after you do, after you start understanding more about what is kind of triggering you on this journey, the, the answer to these, to these kind of insecurities is discipline. And it is a structure and people, it's funny, as I've read more, as I get older and the more things I've, I've taught myself, I've realized that a lot of, a lot of the spiritual practices or a lot of books that I've read are almost saying the same thing in different ways.

• 5:32Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  Like the, the, the theme that I found most important to me is that, for lack of a better word, discipline is destiny.

• 5:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 5:42Speaker 01

  And, and that has been my way out of the turbulence in my life back, back in the day.

• 5:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think like if anyone's ever been to physical therapy or rehab from an injury, you get the sense that it's like, oh, I'm going to be worked on. I'm going to go and I'm going to get massages or this kind of treatment or this medicine. But really they're like, no, here's the work that you have to do. Right? And it's the same for, I think, the other forms of rehab. Like it's, they don't, you don't go there and then they're like, here are all the secrets to not drinking or doing this or that anymore. What they're like is here are the things that you have to do every single day of your life.

• 6:25Speaker 00

  And the second you stop, like, as they say, they say it works if you work it. Right? Like if you do that work, then you'll stay sober. If you don't do that work, you won't. And it's really, really hard work. It's like the hardest work because it's on yourself and it's against habits or practices or assumptions you've had your whole life.

• 6:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. Hundred percent. It's, I mean, and, and some people refer that as, refer to that as the program. Yes. Really, it's just your program. It's whatever you need to do every day to, to center yourself. Yeah. And to feel grounded. And admittedly, there's days where I'm not as good. Yeah, sure. And there's days that I am. And I think one of the, the things I'm really trying to find tune right now is, is how to do this when things that are out of my control are taking me out of my element. Like, I'm not gonna be on my farm in Bastrop, you know? You're right. You know, I'm not gonna be in my, my, my element. I'm, I'm gonna be traveling and overseas. And I think that's, that is an art in itself is

• 7:25Speaker 01

  how to, how to do those, those basic things that will center you for the rest of the day. Cause that's really all the program is, once you've understood what is kind of fueling those self-destructive behaviors. Well, isn't there an acronym for like HALT? HALT, yeah. Yeah. Hungry, angry, lonely, tired. And then I add thirsty, cause I don't know why they don't bring that in too. I'm like, I'm like, there's times. And basically, all that's saying is, here's something I realized. I think whenever you're sitting there and you're going like, man, like, I just, I need a vacation. Yeah. Like, I just, I need to be in, in Mexico right now. Or, damn, like, I wish my house was bigger. I just wish I was in a bigger house.

• 8:07Speaker 01

  I, I, I find it so funny because I'm like, do you actually want to be in Mexico right now? Or do you like the person you think you're gonna be in Mexico right now? Yes. And it's same with that house, right? Like, like, or do you like the person you've become to be in that? Mm-hmm. You know? And I think, you know, it's, it's, it's kind of the same theme from your book. It's just like, you get what you are. Yes. So just be the best version of yourself. As possible.

• 8:36Speaker 00

  Well, it's funny, in meditations, there's a passage where Marcus realises like doing exactly that. He's like, I know you think you want to get away from it all.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:44Speaker 00

  Like in the country or the beach or whatever. And he's like, but actually, whatever you need is inside of you right now. He says like, you can retreat and go on vacation inside your own soul.

• 8:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:53Speaker 00

  Right now. And I think it's true, right? We think, okay, if I can just get away from all these external things.

• 8:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Then I won't feel what I'm feeling.

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:02Speaker 00

  And obviously, sometimes that's what we do. And then sometimes we do like a substance or a thought pattern or whatever as the other version of escape. But what we really just have to deal with is whatever that feeling is.

• 9:14Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  And if you can deal with that feeling and process it and work on it, that's actually a more sustainable and permanent solution to that thing. But we can, I think, to me, one of the things that addiction is, is like a sort of a proven pattern where whenever you get that feeling, you do that bad thing that I think you're not supposed to do.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  And then it become, they become, the relief becomes associated with that feeling.

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 9:42Speaker 00

  Even if it's also destroying your life at the same time.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 9:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:45Speaker 01

  And it's your coping mechanism, you know, it is your higher power.

• 9:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  It's what you go to.

• 9:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Um, right? It's like we, we fall on our habits. And if that's your habit, you're going to fall on that, right?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  But I, you know, I'm so grateful, um, for Stoicism in my life. And I think that so many young kids right now, especially people growing up in this world with social media and just being flooded by these self-promoting people.

• 10:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:14Speaker 01

  And I'm not saying that there's any, like, everybody, you know, has their own life and I'm not about to judge them. But it's just, if I was a kid growing up and like, my idols were the, some of the things that I see now.

• 10:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:26Speaker 01

  It's, um, it's very scary because I think that it just kind of. Can

• 10:33Speaker 00

  We don't understand that it's not real.

• 10:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:35Speaker 00

  That it's a performance.

• 10:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 10:37Speaker 00

  And in some cases, it's literally not real because there's filters on top of it and there's editing on top of it. And you don't understand that that is not actual life. That is fake life.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  The highlight reel of people's life. Or, you know, for some of these like business gurus, this is their their way of getting you to sign up for something, right?

• 10:56Speaker 00

  Yes, yes. You think Andrew Tate or whatever is a successful whatever, but actually his only success is selling you stuff.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 11:05Speaker 00

  Well, you know, speaking of your show heals, it's like, it's like watching professional wrestling and not knowing that it's fake. Like, yes, you don't, that it's all scripted, that it's designed to make you feel good about some people, bad about some people, vicariously follow along, stimulates or very primal urges, which when it is presented as entertainment, there's absolutely no problem with it.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:27Speaker 00

  The problem is it's not like these are, you're following these parenting bloggers and going like, why am I shitty because my house isn't clean like theirs? And you don't understand that they picked this location that they're shooting from because you can't see what's on the other side of the couch.

• 11:43Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 11:44Speaker 00

  Which is the same mess that's in your house. Or that the house is a rental or the car is a rental.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Or whatever.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  And, and I just feel like it's this, it's this kind of teaching for people that that really is the way out. Because if I could sum up everything that I've read into a few words from you, it's, you're gonna be okay. You're, it's going to be okay. Follow this. Like, like, because I think that

• 12:16Speaker 01

  everyone is being made to feel like they're not good enough right now. Sure. You know, in the world. And

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Through this, you realize that you can do that for yourself. You know, through these, these small practices, that this everyday routine, that you don't need validation externally, that this all comes internally and happiness isn't something to be gotten, it is the way.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  You know, you know what I like about that hall acronym, though, is that like, I think we think people that are like sober, or in great shape, or really successful, like, we think that they're just sort of gutting it out with sheer superhuman strength all the time.

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Right? That like, they just always do the right thing, that they are never tempted, that it's never hard for them. And that's, not only is that not true, but the real secret is just trying to avoid the scenarios or the environments where you are vulnerable to not being who you want to be. You know what I mean? So it's like, if you're like, hey, I make bad decisions when I'm upset, right? You just try not to make fewer decisions when you're upset. It's not like you just magically don't have a temper.

• 13:30Speaker 01

  No.

• 13:30Speaker 00

  Right?

• 13:31Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 13:31Speaker 00

  Like, everyone has a temper, but you try to be the person that goes, hey, these are my processes, these are the systems I have, this is a little bit of self-discipline I have that says, hey, when I'm pissed off, I write the email, but I don't send it, right? Or like, my Twitter account is on somebody else's phone.

• 13:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:47Speaker 00

  So I don't have the ability to angrily fire something off when I'm in the middle of a contract negotiate, or whatever, right? Like, you think about, how do you set up processes so you don't make bad decisions when you're hungry, angry, lonely, tired? You know, I, I think, I, I read this study once that was saying like, most fights between couples happen when one or more of them is hungry. And you're like, oh, yeah, right.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  I totally believe that.

• 14:13Speaker 00

  You're not actually fighting about like, whose fault it was that you're late. You're fighting because you were trying to get to a restaurant, and you're not at the restaurant, and you're both hungry. And when you realize that, you're like, let's just table this discussion till after we eat. And, and not only are we not actually going to have to have the discussion later, but like, we're both going to apologize, we're both going to admit we're wrong.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:36Speaker 00

  Cause we'll be different people then.

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, I, I completely agree with that. I also feel like it's, I feel like so many, so many people, including myself,

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Want to follow this, this, what's the right way?

• 14:54Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 14:54Speaker 01

  What's the right way to do it, right? And, and the right way is the way that works for you.

• 14:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 14:59Speaker 01

  You know, and I feel like that's, that's something that, that I, I struggled to figure out along the way is I was like, oh, everyone has just what works for them. You know, some people can survive on, on, on less sleep and be totally fine.

• 15:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:14Speaker 01

  I'm not one of those people. I never have been.

• 15:16Speaker 00

  And chances are though, you're not one of those people. If you think you're one of those people, you're probably fooling yourself, right? But like, yes, I get what you're saying.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  But that was, but that's interesting to me because I, I saw that, I actually read that book, Why We Sleep, that author, right? And I, and I, and that's like, there's, the percentage of people who can actually do that is staggeringly low.

• 15:37Speaker 00

  You're the exception that proves the rule.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  Well, how much sleep do you get a night?

• 15:42Speaker 00

  Uh, I, I need like at least eight. I can function on seven and if it's less than seven, I'm like trash.

• 15:50Speaker 01

  And are you edgy?

• 15:51Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Like you're moody?

• 15:53Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Okay. See, so me too.

• 15:55Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. I need to sleep and like, obviously when you have kids or you're working, like there's, there's, you know, I was just like, just did this talk and I had to like get up at four in the morning to catch a flight. There's definitely like, I can do it.

• 16:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course.

• 16:07Speaker 00

  I just, I think what you realize is you're like, what are the conditions that more often than not I do my best?

• 16:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  Right? Like, um, the other day we, we took our kids to this like water park. And so we spent the night and then we drove back and I came here to the office. We got back at like two in the afternoon and there was something I had to write. And so I get in the office, normally my routine is I get up early, I go on this walk, I write in the morning, I'm done.

• 16:32Speaker 00

  But for, for whatever reason, this day it was flipped, like I got in the office at two and as I sat down to record, it, or to, to write. It was just garbage. Like I wasn't feeling it and it was sexually, I'm actually really glad it happened because I was like, oh yeah, this is why I have my routine. Because who I am at 2pm is a fundamentally different person than who I am at 7am. As a writer, I could do a phone call at, you know, at 8am and be just as good on the phone at 2pm or whatever, right? I can run at those times, but as far as who I need to be to do my main thing, which is writing, that's the time I have to do it at. And understanding that and then building around that is really important.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  So it's like, if I'm trying to write at 2 and it's not happening, I don't like beat myself up and go like, why am I not good? You know, why are, well, maybe I'm an imposter. I don't think that. I, I just understand that I am not setting myself up for success in that environment. And ideally you want to make, you want to build your life and make your decisions when it's in your control, around the times and places and tools that make you the person that you want to be. And that's like a huge part of it. So it's like, I think sometimes people think it's about discipline in the moment, which it is, but it's also about the discipline way before that. A good example actually with sleep is like, people go like, I'm not a morning person or I have trouble getting out of bed in the morning.

• 18:02Speaker 00

  And that's actually not a matter of discipline. The discipline is you should have gone to bed earlier, right?

• 18:08Speaker 01

  That's always my question for you. When do you go to bed?

• 18:10Speaker 00

  Yeah. Uh, if it's at 10, 10:30, then I'm like on top of it. And if it's lingering and lagging, that's like, that lapse of discipline doesn't feel like a big lapse of discipline, but the, the next day or the day after, that's the lagging indicator of whether I made that right decision. And I think this is true for lots of things. It's like someone's sobriety is not.

• 18:33Speaker 00

  Just simply like in this moment, do you drink or not drink? Do you accept, you know, the pass or not the pass? But it's, did you decide to go to a meeting six days ago? Or five days ago, or four days ago, or three days ago? Right? Like when you, it's when you start blowing off the little things, the in the, the lagging, or the, the, when you, it's when you start blowing off the little things leading up to it, that you're setting yourselves up, you're setting yourself up for an inevitable failure or lapse of discipline when it really counts.

• 19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I think, I mean, literally, that is the theme of discipline is destiny, right? The little things are the big things.

• 19:14Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:14Speaker 01

  In life, in your career, in your relationship, in everything. It's, it's, and that's something that took me so long to realize in my life. You know, and when it comes to drinking, it's like, if you're not on top of your sobriety, your addict is doing pushups in the parking lot, right? Like, it's getting, it's getting ready for you.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 19:35Speaker 01

  For that moment.

• 19:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:36Speaker 01

  Where, where, where it jumps you, you know? And I think I always have to be careful with myself about when I am feeling good, when I do feel like I have it under control.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 19:47Speaker 01

  Because it's always going to be there. I'm always going to be an addict. It's just where I, you know, where, where I used to put my time and energy into things that were self-destructive. I now put them into things that are creative and, and, you know, going to help me move my life and my family's life forward.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  And that can be a huge asset, too.

• 20:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:12Speaker 01

  So what once was kind of destroying my life is now changed my life for the better in ways I could never have imagined. You know, five years ago, yeah, I was in rehab in Arizona. I had no idea what my life was going to, yeah, going to hold. And, and it's actually insane when they talk about the promises and, and AA about, you know, all these things that will happen if you just love yourself, if you just follow this program, if you just do the hard work. And even me, you're just like, oh, I hope so. I mean, I guess, I mean, everything else isn't working, so I guess I'll try this. It's insane. I look back and I just go, how was that five years?

• 20:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Like, the things that have changed in my life is just, it's just magical.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  There's a great quote, um, all growth is a leap in the dark, right? And so like, all change, all process, right? Involves a certain amount of trust. Like, someone says, hey, you want to be a writer? Do these things, right? Someone says, hey, you want to be sober? Do these things. Hey, you want to have a good marriage? Do these things. And you can be like, yeah, yeah, sure, right? Or you can be like, okay, I will actually do those things, right? And when you do those things, when you trust that process, it usually works out. More often than not, it works out. You, no one's gonna, no one can tell you how quickly it will work out, or how easy it will be, but like, the process is the sort of tried and true process for a reason. And it requires the person to have both the courage and the

• 21:36Speaker 00

  discipline to sort of go, okay, I trust you, I trust this, and also, I'm going to listen to this, I'm going to stick with this. Um, and if you can do that, then yeah, magical things are on the other side of it. But the problem is we, we have doubts, or we, we go, I'll do it 20% of the way, or I'll do it sometimes, and then we don't, we don't get the thing, and then we go, see, it didn't work.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  Exactly. Because we forgot the final step. And it was the hardest step for me, and it's actually one that, that, that I apply to my work all the time, which is surrender.

• 22:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:14Speaker 01

  And letting go.

• 22:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:15Speaker 01

  And allowing those things to come to you. You know, I always tell people, and they're like, I want to be an actor, and I want to do this. It was like, like, I, the only reason I am where I am in my career, or that I have one, is because I always made a promise to my younger self. I said, if I'm 80 year old, 80 years, 80, 80 years old, or jobless, at least I will have made my 12 year old self proud.

• 22:38Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 22:39Speaker 01

  You know, because this is what I knew, I just had this knowing I had to do. I can't promise you that it will happen when you want it to, or how you want it to. But

• 22:51Speaker 01

  If you love it.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  You know, with everything that you are and you do it over and over and over again, it will happen for you. I believe that.

• 23:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:00Speaker 01

  You know, if you, if you, if you study, if you train, if you love it. And the irony in it is that the love and the joy is in the process of doing it.

• 23:08Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:08Speaker 01

  That's the most important thing is once you actually fall in love with what you're doing, the outcomes just happen.

• 23:22Speaker 00

  That's the paradoxical, almost insane thing that you have to, you have to get people to accept, which is that you will actually have better results when you stop thinking about results or even wanting the results.

• 23:36Speaker 01

  I know, that's the most, that's the most fucked up shit about it. Excuse my language, but like it's like, it is so, that is the most fucked up part about it is the second, and it's a true with like, it's actually, it's true with how I met my wife. When I, when I met her and I was finally like, you know what? Like, I'm good. Like, I'm just gonna just, I'm good. I'm good on my own. I don't need this.

• 23:57Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  You know, every job I've gone into that and said that, like, look, I'm grateful for the opportunity. I don't need it.

• 24:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  You know, I'm gonna go give my performance. I'm not here to get a job. Whatever happens, happens. Those are the ones that end up happening. And the ones that I was like, oh, I got this. This is mine. I have to get this. I have to get, never.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:15Speaker 01

  And I just think that's so.

• 24:16Speaker 00

  It's kind of like golf, like the harder you are trying to hit the ball in a very specific place and show people how good you are at doing it.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:24Speaker 00

  That's when you shank it.

• 24:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:25Speaker 00

  Right? That's when you clip the top of it or embarrass yourself. Do you know what I mean? Like, and it is weird, like, it's, it's, it almost sounds like a lie that successful people are making up to deceive people who are behind them on the path. But it's true, like, my books have sold better and I've had more success.

• 24:47Speaker 00

  That is directly correlated with how little I have thought about those things, or cared about those things, or aimed for those things. Like, I think almost entirely about, what do I want to say? What am I trying to do? What's, what, what, what is this project? Like, am I hap- it, it, did, did I win or succeed when I turned it in?

• 25:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:12Speaker 00

  Right? And then everything else is extra? Once I got to that place, all of a sudden, all the things that I really wanted before, that I was aiming for very specifically, but was not getting, they just started happening.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  So here's a question for you. Once that started happening, right? All the things that you wanted before.

• 25:32Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 25:33Speaker 01

  And you start getting those things.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:36Speaker 01

  Do you find yourself having to retrain yourself to not hoard those things that you get? You know, because I also feel like you didn't want those things.

• 25:46Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Right? Or you did want them, then you didn't want them. Then they came.

• 25:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  And now you get to enjoy them.

• 25:54Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 25:55Speaker 01

  I think the trap is trying to build, you know what I mean?

• 26:00Speaker 00

  Trying to keep them. Yeah, no, totally. It's like, okay, like, as an author, you want to hit number one on a bestseller, or you want to hit, you want to sell lots of copies. So the more you think about that, the less energy you're actually focused on, like, making something good.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Making something true.

• 26:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  Right? So soon as you stop thinking about that, you actually have more energy, more effort, more purity in the thing. And then let's say that actually gets you the thing. You hit number one and selling it crazy. What can happen is now you're like, that's normal. That's what I deserve. That's who I am. And now you're thinking about keeping it.

• 26:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:34Speaker 00

  And you're already, you've already left the pure, present, uh, inner-focused state that unlocked the thing in the first place. So, so I try to think of it as like ephemeral and not mine. And like, my job is just to do what I do. That's the gift.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Love that.

• 26:54Speaker 00

  That's the, that's- Success and then the other stuff, you get it or you don't. And it's, the Stoics have this great, where they call them preferred indifference. So it's like, it's better to be working than not working, to sell lots of copies than no copies, to be rich than poor, right? All, it's better to have those things than not have those things. But you're at a place where you're good either way.

• 27:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 27:18Speaker 00

  Right? And if you can get there, then I think that's the place where you do like the good work.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 27:26Speaker 00

  But it must be weird as an actor, because like, I have a lot more control over my destiny than you do.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  That's bullshit.

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Right? Like you, uh, someone picks you, they allow you to do the thing or not. Then it, then they tell you, and to a certain degree, how to do the thing.

• 27:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Then someone edits the thing, then someone markets the thing. How have you come to practice surrender and acceptance? Like, how, how have you narrowed your focus on what you do as an actor?

• 27:54Speaker 01

  Like, so why I always wanted to be an actor was because I love telling stories. And I wanted to inspire people. Like, I loved, that's what I loved. It was never about, um, everything else that came with it.

• 28:07Speaker 00

  Right, some people might want to be famous, they might want to be rich, they might just want to get the hell out of where they're from.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  I, I'd be lying if I didn't say that finances played a part in it. Like, if I couldn't make money doing this, I don't know if I would. That, that's just me being completely blunt. Like, I love it, but I never saw myself on stage doing it for five cents, you know, or like a dollar. Like, I, I need to provide for my family.

• 28:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  But that wasn't, but the impetus for doing this was truly because I genuinely loved it. But it would also be wrong of me to deny the fact that when things go well, it means that more, there's more opportunities

• 28:41Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 28:41Speaker 01

  to do what I love.

• 28:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:44Speaker 01

  Being in Austin is so amazing for me because, um, you know, I, I do have a great group of friends in Los Angeles. And I think, I think it's a great, you know, there's a lot of great stuff to it.

• 28:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  I just didn't want to be reminded every single day about my business and about all this stuff. Like, for me, I love getting to retreat and going to work on, you know, for me, for me, writing is a big, big part of my life as well. And, and me and my partners, we, we develop television shows and we, and we write scripts. So we attach different, you know, you, you put together a package and you'll, and you'll pitch it to big studios or whatever. That's how I take my control back. You know, is, is Kate, as opposed to waiting for You know, my version of one thing I realized like you can't, you can't,

• 29:29Speaker 01

  you can allow somebody else to inspire you.

• 29:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 29:32Speaker 01

  You cannot try to recreate their career.

• 29:34Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  So like, for example, like Will Smith and I are doing Bad Boys together, right? Like, I grew up, and he's autotop right now, but like, I grew up absolutely loving Will. And just from my experience with Will, he is just an incredible human being, an incredible business guy. We're all human beings and we all, we all make mistakes. But I can allow his career to inspire me as a human being and as an actor. But I can't go, where's my version of this movie?

• 30:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  You know?

• 30:07Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 30:08Speaker 01

  Cause that's not how, what makes him special in his, right, was that he was where he was at the time that he was.

• 30:15Speaker 00

  You can't, you can't recreate something that's already happened.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:18Speaker 01

  So for me, knowing that, it's like, okay, well, what are the stories that I actually want to tell? And I'm going to create those opportunities for myself.

• 30:25Speaker 00

  I do get what you're saying, though. It's picking where one lives. Again, the Stoics should say, you should be able to be above jealousy and comparison and FOMO and all these things wherever you live.

• 30:35Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 30:36Speaker 00

  Great, like, somebody should be able to be sober in the middle of a nightclub or a bar. But also, the nightclub and the bar is literally designed to prompt you to want to drink, right? And people around you are offering to drink. So it's not a great place for a person who wants to be sober. I have found that choosing where one lives and how one designs one day, one's day, is really powerful in terms of helping you be the person that you know you want to be.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:03Speaker 00

  And living around people that are not, you're not competing with and actually don't really care about what you do at all.

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:11Speaker 00

  I find helps me be more pure and independent in what I do because there's not this sort of warping influence of like, how did they get that? Or should I be doing that? Or?

• 31:27Speaker 00

  Why are they doing more than me? It's like, I'm here doing my own thing.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 00

  And I, because it's out of sight, it's out of mind and it helps me be better.

• 31:35Speaker 01

  And, you know, it's funny, Hollywood, I feel like creates the illusion of competition.

• 31:40Speaker 00

  Sure, like social media.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:42Speaker 01

  Whereas in reality, it's, it's not as competitive as people make it out to be. There are, there are roles that I am so right for. And there will be a very few other guys, my age, my type, that are, that are right for that. Like, in that sense, I guess you could say we're competing against each other.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  But in reality, like, it's, it's not that. And I think that there's this feeling of totally perpetuated by insecurities.

• 32:07Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Of just, I have to one up, I have to act better, I have to be better. And it's just, I don't, that's not the father I want to be, that's not the husband I want to be, that's not the man I want to be. And that's part of why I think, I do think leaving home, even as a child, can be a huge life hack.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  I think just like broadening your horizons and being someone new. And Lauren and I, my wife, we've, we'd never been to Austin, you know? And I'd heard such amazing things. And once we got here, it was just like, oh, man. Like, I feel like this is how like life was back in the seventies, you know? You know, or like back before everything. It's just, you go to certain places, like even this town, I'm just like, are you kidding me? Like, right over the fucking bookstore? Like, this is incredible. Like, I love this.

• 32:49Speaker 00

  Also, like, there's something to be said too about like, I think there's this, when you're like, when you want to do a certain profession, like, okay. Every, everyone is in New York or LA or whatever.

• 32:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:59Speaker 00

  And because everyone's there, there is competition in the sense that like, there's only so many apartments. And so everything's more expensive, right?

• 33:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  And I think being able to live in a place, although Austin is becoming very expensive. But I think, so you can do it anywhere. But, uh, living below your means or living outside of the bubble or the scene where you're not also competing. In terms of status with other people, it allows you to make better artistic or creative or business decisions because you're being much more rational about them. You're not like, hey, everyone, like in my industry, you have to drive this kind of car or you're a loser.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  Right. And then it's like, well, you have to work however many days a year just to pay for that thing.

• 33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  And then so you're not thinking, like when I decided, when I went to my publisher, I was like, I want to write a book about an obscure school of ancient philosophy. They were like, what? You know? That sounds like a terrible idea. And they, and they offered me less money for it.

• 33:51Speaker 01

  Right.

• 33:52Speaker 00

  And if I was living a different lifestyle than I was.

• 33:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  The decision to say, I don't really care. I'll take whatever the offer is, wouldn't have been possible.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:02Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 34:03Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. I mean, this is, that is the key, I think, to, I think, just to, to living a, a, a nice life. But also to, especially for, for people who like artists, actors, authors, you know, people where it's, nothing is guaranteed. You're almost living a little bit of an entrepreneurial lifestyle as well, where it's just you, you can make money very fast and very quickly. But you can also go years, you know, you don't.

• 34:31Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  And.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Especially if you want to be choosy about.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Your craft.

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Well, that's, so this is what I said to my manager always is I said, the greatest power I have as an actor is to be able to sit back and, and choose. And I've always had this mindset and it's served me well so far. Which is, I would rather be a part of a great film and not be the lead.

• 34:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:55Speaker 01

  Than be the lead of a piece of shit film and, and get paid.

• 34:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 01

  Way more. And I feel like I've consistently throughout my life have been able to turn down money jobs for the ones that ironically pay you nothing.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  But to work with great people. And it has slowly but surely continued

• 35:17Speaker 01

  to produce opportunities and things that I've, I had never experienced. And.

• 35:23Speaker 01

  Only in hindsight, I can see that, you know, I didn't see it at the time. It was very frustrating to me being like, God, I really want to take this job, but I can't.

• 35:30Speaker 00

  But that takes a lot of discipline, right? They're like, we want you for this. We will pay you a lot for this. And the alternative is not working, right? Like if you're a person who wants to work,

• 35:41Speaker 01

  I love working.

• 35:42Speaker 00

  Want to be, you know, want to be wanted. And then obviously you want money.

• 35:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:46Speaker 00

  To say like, no, to say that's almost right, but not right. That's like the hardest thing to do in the world. Like for me, when I get offered like talks and stuff and it's like, well, I wasn't doing anything on Tuesday, the 17th.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:59Speaker 00

  You know, but the discipline to say,

• 36:04Speaker 00

  I'm going to leave that space open for something potentially better, which may, might be nothing. I struggle with that all the time.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. I think all of us do. It's, it's, it's really, really difficult, but, but also, it's not that difficult if you live as responsibly as you possibly can, right? Because like, for me, it was just like,

• 36:29Speaker 01

  man, like it would be nice, but I don't need it. And, and to me, those offers, I don't even consider them offers because to me, it's like, the first thing I always say is, okay, don't tell me what I'm getting, don't tell me what the offer is. If money wasn't an object, would I do this?

• 36:44Speaker 00

  Interesting.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Would I do this?

• 36:46Speaker 00

  Yeah. Right. Cause it's not hard if you didn't know about it. Like if you'd never heard, like if you were just like, I wasn't doing anything on the 17th, you'd be like, I'm not doing anything on the 17th.

• 36:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 00

  The hard part is someone told you, do you want to do nothing on the 17th?

• 36:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Or do you want to do this thing that's worth this amount of money? Now it's hard because it feels like you're choosing the irresponsible choice versus the responsible choice. When actually the responsible choice may well be to say, no.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  Luckily, I think now too, actors are, actors get away with a lot more shit than they used to. Because I think there's so much content out that, and to, in two ways, that's actually really nice because you can take risks on things that perhaps there's no way you would have touched back in the day.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 37:32Speaker 01

  Cause back in the day, when it was like theatrical releases, if it didn't do well, you know, you maybe had one or two more shots, but that was it. Whereas now it's like, if it's bad, nobody sees it. If it's good, maybe people see it.

• 37:44Speaker 00

  And it might take a long time for them to see it.

• 37:46Speaker 01

  I mean, Vikes is a great example of that. I mean, we started that show. I mean, the first episode, basically, we had the 10th year anniversary like last week, like, you know, 10 years ago.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  And people are like, have you heard of this new show?

• 37:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I literally, the security guy at the airport yesterday pulled me over. He's like, dude, I'm just finishing season four. I'm like, where the fuck are you? Like, we needed you like six years ago, man. I needed you when I could have renegotiated.

• 38:11Speaker 00

  Right, right, right, sure.

• 38:13Speaker 01

  But he was, uh, no, but it was so nice. And I, and obviously, that's, that's great, too. But it's just crazy because there's so much out there. It just takes a very, very long time.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Well, it's like, do you have a scarcity mindset about what you do or a abundance mindset? Like, I have a quote in The Obstacle's Away from Richard Branson where he's like, "Opportunities are like buses. There's always one coming around." That is so hard, that, that feels almost egotistical and delusional to accept.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Yes, 100%.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  It's so, like, you're, because I think a lot of people get into acting or writing or any of the creative professions or anything because they want to be wanted. They want to feel good. They want to be validated. And so it, like, to, to, to go, no, actually, like, lots of people, like, you're going to have more offers than you know what to do with, right? That feels preposterously egotistical to believe. So when you're like, I'm going to pass on this sure thing right now because I'm actually confident there, there's going to be better stuff in the future, that feels, that feels irresponsible.

• 39:17Speaker 01

  It does.

• 39:17Speaker 00

  But it, it's probably truer than the alternative, especially, as you said, like, that we do actually live in a world where there's a lot more content, a lot more opportunities, a lot, uh, lower, or bigger margin for error than there was in the past where it's like, yeah, if you don't take this, if you don't take this shot, you'll never get another one.

• 39:37Speaker 01

  By saying no, you're saying yes to abundance.

• 39:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  You know, and it's, it's a very, yeah, it's, it's a lot easier said than done.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  But it does feel good sometimes.

• 39:49Speaker 00

  To say no?

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:51Speaker 00

  Well, it's very empowering.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Very.

• 39:52Speaker 00

  I actually don't need this.

• 39:53Speaker 01

  Yes. You know, no, you can't own me for this.

• 39:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  It's like, huh, that feels great.

• 40:00Speaker 00

  Well, do you know who Molly Bloom is?

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Till I'm on the corner of the street, like dancing for change.

• 40:06Speaker 00

  Thank you for the job. You know Molly Bloom, like Molly's Game, the Aaron

• 40:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 40:09Speaker 00

  Movie?

• 40:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:10Speaker 00

  She was telling me, so like, the premise of that movie is basically

• 40:12Speaker 01

  Did you have her on this podcast?

• 40:13Speaker 00

  She was just here like three, four days ago.

• 40:14Speaker 01

  I would have loved to come for that.

• 40:16Speaker 00

  She was, she was, she was saying like, the premise of the movie and in real life is basically like, the government was like, if you turn on all these people, we'll give you the $5 million of your ill-gotten gains back. Right? And she was like, no, I'm not going to do it. And we were talking about how like, obviously that's an extremely difficult thing to do. But like, how, one way to think about that is how rich you are afterwards, even though you have no money.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  If, to be the kind of person that could say no to $5 million. You have to be very rich, right? And there's different ways to be rich, right? Like, to be very powerful, very in control of yourself, very in control of your wants and needs, to be able to be like, my ethics or my principles are more important to me than literally millions of dollars, right? And so that's, that's the stand she ends up taking, which I'm sure wasn't easy. But like, she leaves that not feeling like, I just lost $5 million. But that actually, I am more powerful than $5 million.

• 41:16Speaker 01

  Fuel's you, yes.

• 41:17Speaker 00

  And Matthew McConaughey told me the same thing, when he would pass on these rom-com roles that were going from, you know, it was five, 10, 15 million dollars.

• 41:23Speaker 01

  Seventeen, crazy shit, yeah.

• 41:24Speaker 00

  Insane, insane amounts of money, that at first, that was terrifying. But then the other side of that is like, no, no, no, I decide what I do. And I, you can't really buy me. And to get to that place is a pretty magical place. It's a very privileged place, but it's a magical place.

• 41:42Speaker 01

  Exactly. And that's, that's the other thing is like, it's a privileged place to be.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  But. It took, it took years of also doing that to get to that privileged place.

• 41:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  If that makes sense. Like, I feel like, you know, when people, um, you know, start speaking, you know, uh, whatever it's at a function or something, or, or on television, they're talking about, you know, how they live through gratitude and blah, blah, blah, right? And it's just like, well, that's easy for you to say.

• 42:12Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  And I'm like, yeah, but to be fair, those, those same people have been doing that.

• 42:18Speaker 00

  For a long time.

• 42:19Speaker 01

  For a long time.

• 42:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  It's just that you're only seeing them now. Um, so.

• 42:24Speaker 00

  Yeah. If it's a new attitude, then it's fake. But if it's, that's what got you there.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly.

• 42:29Speaker 00

  Although also though, it's like, one of the ways you get to a place where you can say no, is by saying yes to a lot of things for a long time.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 42:38Speaker 00

  That's the other side that people miss. It's like, now I can be like, I don't want to do that. Like, or I only want to do it on these terms, in this way. Um, that's because I said yes to so much for so long. And I made commitments and sacrifices to get to the point where you are in, more in control of your own destiny than, than you were at an early point in your career. Right? Like, it's all work for free. I won't complain. I won't be entitled. You do that for a long time. Then you get to a place where you're like, now I'm good. Now I have leverage. I'm going to use that leverage. So otherwise, what's the point of the leverage?

• 43:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. And in the same way, your yeses were strategic early on. Your no's are still strategic, you know, now. Um, so, yeah. I mean, I, that's kind of how I operate as well now, is it's just, um, and I love working. Like, I love, it's my favorite thing in the world to do.

• 43:34Speaker 00

  That's why it's hard, but that makes it hard to say no. Because you like, the alternative of not working feels bad.

• 43:42Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I feel incredibly guilty because I know how privileged I am to even be offered anything. Cause I remember what it was like when I was offered nothing.

• 43:49Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  You know? And I just wished, I'm like, God, how can this guy, you know, they say, how do you get any actor complaint? Give him a job, right?

• 43:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:56Speaker 01

  I'm like, how is this guy even complaining about this job? Like, I'd die for this job.

• 43:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 44:06Speaker 00

  So speaking of Stoicism, it's a little on the nose, but you know, you you played a character with a Stoic name.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  So funny, and I learned that from your book.

• 44:14Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Do you think that she got it?

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Well, she used a bunch of famous sort of Greek and Roman names for all the characters and.

• 44:23Speaker 01

  But Cato was a good one.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  It's probably an illusion. I mean, what's actually funny is like, so the founding of America, the founders would all write these like letters that that was like how they would communicate. They would write these letters that would be published in newspapers.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:36Speaker 00

  And they would all pick names like they're fake names because they wouldn't write it as like Thomas Jefferson or James Madison or or or Alexander Hamilton. They would all pick fake names and they would pick like Cato or.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  No way.

• 44:48Speaker 00

  Epictetus or Marcus or they would pick that was just the name. So she was probably also doing that a little bit or just like sort of a fake name thing. But yeah, I just, I wondered if you know, if you picked up on that.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  I did.

• 45:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 45:00Speaker 01

  I did because when I started learning about it, I was like, that's really interesting. And then somebody told me that Ludwig means my, my, my, uh, last name means famous warrior.

• 45:09Speaker 00

  Oh.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  In German, I was like, well, I have played a lot of famous warriors. That's interesting.

• 45:12Speaker 00

  Yeah. Cato is one of the more interesting Stoics because he doesn't really write anything like he there's no.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  How do we know anything about him?

• 45:21Speaker 00

  You can't go get like his, his essays on philosophy, but he to the other Stoics was the number one Stoic and it's because of who he was, like it was how he lived, like he, he lived the Stoic principles. So his peer is Cicero and Cicero writes all the great essays on Stoicism. He's how we know about a lot of the ancient Stoics. But he actually like when, when the rubber met the road sort of tended to struggle. And when things got hard, Cato was like even beyond what the philosophy, you would expect the philosophy to, to be able to bring out of a person.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  That's pretty, that's pretty, um, because like anything like these, even, even philosophy has to be tried and tested, right?

• 46:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  To an extent, like, like. Does this work, right? I would imagine at the beginning, but for a human being to have that kind of faith in something.

• 46:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, so Cato is famous ultimately for his suicide. Do you know this story?

• 46:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 46:22Speaker 00

  So, okay, so Cato.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  If it's in your books, I've heard this.

• 46:24Speaker 00

  Cato and the big clash in the ancient world. I think we even have, it's in the wall somewhere. I can't see it. This is a great book that I just, I just read about Cato and Cicero. But basically, it's the clash in the ancient world. Like Caesar is like the ambitious, talented, like plays to the crowd, but doesn't really have a conscience. Just is out for himself.

• 46:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:49Speaker 00

  And Cato is this sort of like principled, sort of old school, like basically one wants to be emperor. One wants to preserve the republic. And there's this clash and they end up fighting and there's a lot. But in the end, basically Caesar wins and Cato is faced with the choice of basically submitting to Caesar. And Caesar would have forgiven him or like probably blessed him, but he would have demanded a certain subservience from him. And Cato refuses. So he has this big dinner party and, you know, they talk about philosophy. It goes on for hours and hours. And then, you know, he says goodbye to everyone.

• 47:34Speaker 00

  He puts them on ships and says like, you gotta get out of here before Caesar gets you. And then he goes to bed. He wakes up in the middle of the night. He reads this, uh, this book about, about, um, about Socrates. And then he grabs his sword and he disembowels himself like up the middle. And when he falls, like, you know, collapses to the ground, people rush in and they, they're like, they try, they stop him. They stop him from totally doing it and they stitch him back up and. He wakes up in the middle of this. This is like, this could be in Vikings, basically. He wakes up in the middle, sees that they're trying to save him,

• 48:15Speaker 00

  but refuses to, you know, basically exist in a world that is so the opposite of how he wants it to be. And he, he rips it open with his hands. And that's how he goes out.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 48:27Speaker 00

  That's how he goes out. And so that, that was, so Cato's defiance of Caesar is this sort of monument for all time, ultimately of like the, the mission of the republic. So, so Caesar wins and Cato dies. But that sort of example stands for thousands of years. And this is ultimately what like the sort of the founders draw on as they're, they're, they're creating America. It's like, it's like they're picking up the torch or the baton or the defiance of, of, of Cato in the, in those last moments.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  So who was the original Stoic?

• 49:10Speaker 00

  The original Stoic is this guy named Zeno.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  Zeno, yes.

• 49:12Speaker 00

  So Zeno loses everything in a shipwreck. He washes up in Athens and ends up founding this, this school of philosophy. And then this is actually funny. So this is in Athens in Greece. And so that's, it's the invention of philosophy. It eventually makes its way to Rome like several generations later. And Cato the Elder, which is Cato the Younger, who's probably who your character is named after, that's Cato's great, great grandfather. He's there when the philosophers are like doing their talks. And he was like even more old school than Cato. And he watched one of the philosophers argue one thing one day. And then the next day argue the opposite of that thing. Like, you know, like sort of a philosophical trick.

• 49:54Speaker 00

  And he's so appalled by this that he, he orders that they be exiled from Rome and philosophy be banned.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  Come on.

• 50:04Speaker 00

  Having no idea that his great, great grandson would later become one of the great philosophers of all time. It's pretty nuts.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  How many books do you think you've read on Stoicism?

• 50:16Speaker 00

  A lot, a lot. I actually tend to read less on Stoicism these days. And I just try to read about interesting people.

• 50:26Speaker 00

  People I like, people I dislike, times I like, times I dislike. And I try to look for the ideas of the philosophy in stories that I admire or am appalled by.

• 50:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I saw that so much in Discipline is Destiny.

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  I mean, I loved all those choices that you had. And it's one of those books that you could read over and over again. That's what I love about your books. I feel like you can read them over and over again. In fact, I would argue you should read them over and over again because there's different, all these different stories. Every time I read it, I'm reading a different book.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  Well, the Stoics talk about that too, actually. Seneca says we have to linger on the works of the master thinkers. Like, we have to go over them over and over again. But there's this poet, Heraclitus, who the Stoics like. And he would say, "The reason we reread things is that," he says, "we never step in the same river twice." "The river is different, but also the man is different."

• 51:25Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 51:26Speaker 00

  Right, and so the words are exactly the same when I pick up Marcus Aurelius in 2006, right, in my college apartment. And when I'm, you know, three years ago, in March 2020, I pick up Marcus Aurelius, as the world is sort of melting down, and it strikes me, oh, wait, Marcus Aurelius was writing during a plague. When he talks about plagues and what they do to people and how it can destroy your character, he wasn't like being metaphorical. He was talking about what we were about to go through, right?

• 52:07Speaker 00

  And you realize, oh, I would have had no, I would have had no ability to understand the material on this level.

• 52:18Speaker 00

  If the events of the world were forcing that top of mind, right? It's like what you read when you read the Stoics as a single person and then you read the Stoics when you have kids.

• 52:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:30Speaker 00

  You go, oh, this is a person who buried multiple children before they reached adulthood. And you go, oh, like he's grieving when he writes this passage and he's coming at it from a person who's been, you know, had their heart broken, but is trying not to be a broken person, right? And you go, oh, you just never, it would have been impossible for you to comprehend what was happening at the levels of the levels of the levels below in the text until you had some frame of reference in your own experience. And so it is really important that you go back and you watch a movie that hit you when you were 15 years old. You watch it again when you're older because you realize all these things were happening

• 53:15Speaker 00

  that you didn't know. There's, there was references to films that you hadn't seen.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 00

  And there's quotes from people that you never heard of. And the same goes for books. And I think one of the things I like to do is go back and reread books because I notice, why did I highlight that passage? Like what was, why did I care about that then? Now I care about it even more. Now it doesn't matter to me at all. Like you just, you get things, you get different things out of the stuff when you come back to it.

• 53:39Speaker 01

  Tony Hopkins was telling me that he only reads books now. He doesn't even watch any.

• 53:45Speaker 00

  Anthony Hopkins? He's a big fan of the Stoics, actually.

• 53:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I wish I had known about it when we worked together because we worked together probably six years now, but he was such a great, I'm going to talk about another guy who like lives by.

• 53:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  Recovery, but.

• 54:01Speaker 00

  Yes, and is a very, from the people that I've known and the conversations I've had with him, is a very sort of quiet, but prolific like ally and supporter of people who are where he was at earlier times in his journey. He's a, he's a very much embodiment of that idea of being of service.

• 54:22Speaker 01

  Being of service, you know, and that's.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  You can do it. You can be. I think the problem with me is everything I always want to do a hundred and thousand percent, right? It's like, it's like everything I want to be all in. You know, if I'm gonna serve, I'm gonna, I'm gonna serve every single person in the world. And it's like, it's ludicrous, right? But it's like-

• 54:42Speaker 00

  You gotta put your mask on first.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, right? And, and I, and I've realized like, no, you, you can serve by just being kind to somebody on the street. You know, it's like, it, it, there's, you have no idea how that's gonna affect somebody or their family when they, when they get home, but-

• 55:00Speaker 00

  You can also serve just by having your shit together, being a good example.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  Yes, be a hundred percent. Well, that, that's funny, because in recovery, that's what they talk about, right? It's like, it's like, I, all I can do is be an example for people that are there.

• 55:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:13Speaker 01

  Um, but I can't, I can't tell them that they need to do anything.

• 55:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  You know, that's up to them. But it, but I can be an example.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  But Tony is, he's the living and breathing embodiment of that. And, and even while we were shooting, it was a small independent film, um, that I did with him and Ray Liotta back in the day in, in Canada. And he was like, um, he'd finish working and he'd go to an AA meeting and he would be sponsoring people there. And it was just like, it was surreal. He's an incredible human being.

• 55:45Speaker 00

  Well, talking about being okay, there's some clip, I think it's maybe on Jimmy Kimmel or something. And he talks about how he, um, he pulls up like a photo of himself when he's like a little kid sometimes. And he just goes, see, we did okay, man.

• 55:57Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 55:58Speaker 00

  And, and it's a nice way of redefining, like, because you can be so unhappy in the present moment. You can be hard on yourself. You can wonder why you didn't do more, why you did, you know, why you did X, Y, or Z, the things you didn't fulfill. But like, compared, as you said, compared to the 12-year-old version of yourself, you're fucking crushing it.

• 56:16Speaker 01

  It's ridiculous.

• 56:17Speaker 00

  You did so, like- I wanted to write one book. That was like, to me, like, you know what I mean? It's like, if I could do this one time, wouldn't that be incredible? Like, how lucky would that be? And then you do it and you don't feel that way. You tell yourself, well, what if I do it 20 more times? Then, and, and so if you can go back and remember what your definition of enough was, or success, or like profound, like a profound, you know, gift would be, you can realize like how far you already are past that.

• 56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I, you know, if I could go back to my younger self, like especially in my teenage years and, you know, I just, I feel like I always thought that I would mistake like gratitude for complacency, right? And I'm like, they're too, they're so, so different. I'm like, you can stop beating yourself up and, and still be an ambitious person.

• 57:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, you may actually do better work because you're not, you're not wasting time on the parts that don't matter. You're only focused on what you control.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Exactly. And, and I, I wish so badly I could have been like, just let it go. Just allow this to happen. You're doing great. Like, just, it's all gonna be good. Just focus on what you can control and let the rest go. And I feel like more people in this world need to hear that, especially, that's why I love your work so much and I feel like it's so timeless. But you've done, you know, Russell Brand released a, I don't know if you've ever met, have you ever met Russell Brand before? I, I actually, I haven't either, but the people who I talked to said that he's a great dude. But he, um, he, he released like an AA book.

• 57:59Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, he has like a recovery book.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Right? And I, and I read it and it was excellent. You know, it was humorous and it was great. And it was like, for the, for somebody who, the funniest thing is people are like, well, like, how do I know if I'm an alcoholic? It's like, well, look, if you're asking that question, you know, he's, that's probably,

• 58:14Speaker 00

  Regular people are not asking themselves that question.

• 58:16Speaker 01

  Exactly. It's like, that's the thing.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  But it seems like, no, no, alcoholics are just this. It's not me. There's no way. You read Russell Brand's recovery book. It's a great way for somebody who's like, just trying to understand it without like, getting caught up on the God thing and all of that stuff. But I feel like that's what you've done with Stoicism. You've made it, you've made, like, I don't believe that I could have read, just from me, could have read some of the books you have read and digested it the way you have, but I can read your books and it speaks to me. Tenfold, you know, I feel like I understand it. And because you simplify it, you make it relatable. And I recommend your books to absolutely everybody. Anybody who's going through a hard time, like even, even people like in recovery.

• 59:00Speaker 01

  I'm like, read, read about the Stoics, read these books, because it's truly that you can draw so many parallels between, between the two.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  You know, there's a, there's a very weird moment. I think it's in Silence of the Lambs where Hannibal Lecter quotes this. He's like, you know, as Marcus Aurelius said, and you totally skip over the first time. Yeah, there's like, there's a very weird, like Anthony Hopkins, Marcus Aurelius connection where as like the worst villain in the history of film.

• 59:31Speaker 00

  It's pretty cool.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  I'm looking up.

• 59:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, no, he's, he's, he's the best. So there's, there's saying no, that's obviously a big part of it. But how do you deal with rejection?

• 59:42Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 59:43Speaker 00

  Cause that's, that's gotta be the worst part of your profession. It's not just that you don't necessarily control all parts of it, but that other people get to tell you, you can't do the thing that you wanted to do.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  No, I, so I don't want to, just out of respect for the person, but I just worked with this incredibly talented, one of my favorite A-list actors. And we were just hanging out in our trailer together and I was talking to him about exactly that. And, you know, I was just like, man, I'm, I'm very jealous of you because I feel like you, you hit it. Cause like the nineties, like when I grew up, like to me, those, some of those are the best films ever. And it's, it's what.

• 1:00:35Speaker 00

  Everyone thinks that about their generation of films.

• 1:00:37Speaker 01

  But that's true. But I mean, to be fair, my favorite film is like Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. But in terms of like the nineties, I felt like in so many ways, that was like the peak.

• 1:00:45Speaker 00

  It's indie films.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was like, there was a lot of great stuff coming out.

• 1:00:49Speaker 00

  Budget, like awesome, cool movies.

• 1:00:51Speaker 01

  Maybe not the best film ever was in the nineties, but I would say that there was a lot of good films that inspired me to want to become an actor.

• 1:00:58Speaker 00

  Things you can't make now.

• 1:00:59Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. And that's what I said, I was like, I am so jealous of you because, you know, all the things that, that inspired me to want to become an actor. And now I'm like, well, where are they? Like what, I'm here now and I'm ready, like I'm ready to do it. And like, I'm actually in a place in my career where I could do it.

• 1:01:15Speaker 01

  And then we were talking about rejection and, you know, and he said to me, I still fight for roles.

• 1:01:23Speaker 00

  Sure. Everyone does.

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  And I was like, what are you talking about?

• 1:01:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  Alexander, I still fight for roles. And I was like, don't tell me that. Don't tell me that right now. You're telling me this is never ends.

• 1:01:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:35Speaker 01

  Cause of course, it like, I've seen it in myself that, you know, before I was just this kid and there was thousands of people going out for a role. Then there were hundreds.

• 1:01:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  Then there was five.

• 1:01:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  You know, and, and then those five kind of went away and a new five came and I always managed to just be there. But like.

• 1:01:53Speaker 00

  But it never goes to zero.

• 1:01:54Speaker 01

  Never goes to zero.

• 1:01:55Speaker 00

  Because they're all like, what if you can't do it? They're obviously thinking about other potent, they, they have to think about more than one person.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  And, and somewhere out there, there's one super talented A-list actor, losing a job to another one. And then, and, and, and it, it's never going. It's not like you reached this destination and suddenly I'm there. I get to do whatever I want, whenever I want. And everyone only offers what I want to me.

• 1:02:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  It's just, that's never gonna happen. And of course it's not.

• 1:02:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  So for me, it's that knowing that is actually really encouraging because when it comes to rejection. Bryan Cranston said this in his book, and I think you can apply this to pretty much anything in life. But when it comes to acting, I'm there to give a performance, not to get a job.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:02:44Speaker 01

  You know, and so often we imagine what, it's not just the job when you lose it. You lose the job and the fantasy that came with that job.

• 1:02:57Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  Oh my God, once I get this job.

• 1:02:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  I'm gonna finally be happy and this is gonna happen.

• 1:03:02Speaker 00

  A-lister, then I'll have, don't have to care about money.

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Money ever again and blah, blah. And first off, there's not an A-lister I've met yet that's, that doesn't worry about, you know, money and feel like they're finally good. Which is amazing, but it's just what happens.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:19Speaker 01

  And that's just not a thing. So for me, I lean into it, you know, for me now, it's like.

• 1:03:29Speaker 01

  In the same way that I said, you know, all the jobs I've gotten were the ones where I'm like, I don't need this. Would it be great? Absolutely, but I don't need this.

• 1:03:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  You know, I want, it would be great to do these things, but if not, there's be another one that comes along. It's a hard thing to do, especially when it's a, when it's a role you feel like you can absolutely do justice by. But weirdly enough, I've yet to, in my entire career, I have yet to lose a role that I've gone, damn, like, I really, really wish I got that.

• 1:04:02Speaker 00

  Which is, by the way, how the mind works, right? Like, you, people go, I don't want to regret this for the rest of my life. And it's like, that never happens, actually. Your mind always finds a way that what you did is the best thing to do.

• 1:04:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:12Speaker 00

  So why can't you give yourself, like, you go through some devastating breakup. 20 years later, you're like, I'm so glad that happened.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

  You know that inevitably that's where you're gonna end up.

• 1:04:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:22Speaker 00

  But then you're like, but I would like to torture myself for at least the first four or five years.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:28Speaker 00

  Before I get there. And it's like, no, you could just give yourself,

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:31Speaker 00

  You know how you're gonna feel about this in a long enough time from now? So why don't you, why don't you give yourself that gift now?

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Now, exactly. It's hard, especially when you're, when you're like, a really ambitious person.

• 1:04:46Speaker 00

  Sure.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Because I feel like sometimes it, there's just this immense pressure. And, and, and to me, stoicism was always, has always been the way out of that. That pressure I put on myself and everything, because it's like, it gets you down to the root of like, oh, wait, why am I actually doing this?

• 1:05:04Speaker 00

  And why, is this something in my control or something that's not in my control?

• 1:05:07Speaker 01

  And that's the main thing, is like, what is and what isn't? Like, what's in my control? You know, knowing that I show up to every single opportunity 100% prepared, the way I like to, that's in my control. What they decide is not up to me. What's in my control is what I create.

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:23Speaker 01

  You know, or, or the offers. Cause like, now we're, it's really cool, we're in this place where it's like, there will be some great offers that come by, and there'll be a lot of bad ones.

• 1:05:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:32Speaker 01

  And then there'll be stuff that I fight for.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Speaker 01

  And that's kind of just how it is forever. And every opportunity, you just have to to look at a different way and just see, is this something that's going to to elevate me and and make me feel great when I'm a part of it or not, you know, regardless of of money or anything like that?

• 1:05:50Speaker 00

  Well, and the acceptance of rejection is so hard because you don't get where you are, whether it's an entrepreneur, a creative, or or an artist, by accepting no, right? So it's like you, people said it wasn't going to work. They said you were never going to make it. They said you were too short, you were too fat, you were too

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:08Speaker 00

  this gender, that gender, right? Like, and you got where you got by not taking no for an answer. And then eventually you arrive at a place where you have to practice with the Stoics called the art of acquiescence, where you're like, actually, I do have to accept. I do have to take no as an answer because this isn't in my control.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:28Speaker 00

  And and perhaps fighting for this thing, maybe I will succeed, but it's actually not the right thing for me. Like, there's a great expression I love, I heard where it's like, don't run to catch trains, like, you missed some of the trains. Do you know what I mean? Like, you don't actually know that getting on that train is, that could be the train that crashes, right?

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  You never know.

• 1:06:51Speaker 00

  You could meet the person you're meant to marry on the next train.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:53Speaker 00

  Like, just coming coming to terms with the fact that sometimes it doesn't go your way, sometimes you don't get it. That feels so dangerously like complacency and like, you know, like, you know, that expression, show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser. I think we're we're nervous of being the person that accepts rejection, that that will make us a nobody or a nothing.

• 1:07:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Speaker 00

  But I think if you actually have some confidence and you're like, I'll make the next thing work, like, maybe this one wasn't meant for me, that's the attitude that actually gets you the next shot and the next shot and lets you keep going.

• 1:07:27Speaker 01

  Have you read The Power of Intention?

• 1:07:29Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  So my mom just sent me this book and I I just finished it yesterday and I'm rereading it right now. I started this morning. I think what you just said was so, so well said and

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  You're not this complacent nobody if you're worried about that. You know, it's like, it's like.

• 1:07:53Speaker 00

  Complacency is probably not your problem.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, you know, you have the art of intentions. It's like you intend to do something and you're going to do something. It's just maybe you just missed this train and maybe that's exactly what you needed to miss.

• 1:08:08Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:12Speaker 00

  Dude, thank you so much. This is awesome.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  Brian, you're the man. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it, too.

• 1:08:22Speaker 00

  Thanks so much for listening. If you could rate this podcast and leave a review on iTunes, that would mean so much to us and it would really help the show. We appreciate it and I'll see you next episode.