The Livingston County Murders

Several shocking crimes took place within one specific area, Livingston County, MI. For years, investigators wondered if these crimes were connected and if there was some sort of deranged serial killer on the loose there. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the Livingston County murders. Understandably, residents there were uneasy and they wondered if their friend, neighbor, coworker, or someone right next to them in a store might be responsible. You can help support the show through Patreon. We'd love to connect with listeners on social media. We are available on the following platforms: Facebook - Facebook Discussion group - Instagram - Threads - X Formerly Twitter - Blue Sky - Twitch - Tik Tok Criminology is an Emash Digital production hosted by Mike Ferguson and Mike Morford. ©2026 Emash Digital-All rights reserved. This content is the sole property of Emash Digital. Any unauthorized re-selling, re-purposing, or re-distribution, is strictly prohibited, and will be subject to legal action.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Hello everyone and welcome to episode 395 of the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  And this is Mike Morford.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  Mr. Morford, how you doing today, buddy?

• 0:47Speaker 02

  I'm doing pretty good. How you doing?

• 0:49Speaker 01

  I'm doing good. I mean, we, we did get quite a bit of snow, I think almost 16 inches. But I know a lot of parts of the country got it that aren't used to snow. We're used to it, but 16's a, it's a little more than we're used to for sure. So we're still digging out.

• 1:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't miss that, but you know, I think northern up in Tampa got a little bit of, uh, snow, some flurries and stuff, and that's unusual for down here. I like to look at it. I missed that part of it, but I definitely don't miss shoveling it or cleaning it up.

• 1:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, it's caused a quite a mess for sure. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Grayson Evans, Katie and Justin Ware. So a lot of great new support. We really appreciate it.

• 1:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's really awesome. We can't thank you enough for anyone else that would like to head over to patreon.com/criminology and you can get started.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  All right, let's go ahead and dive into this week's case, or should I say cases? Because this week we're talking about some shocking crimes that took place within one specific area, Livingston County, Michigan. For years, investigators wondered if these crimes were connected and if there was some sort of deranged serial killer on the loose there. Understandably, these crimes led residents there to be uneasy, wondering if their friend, neighbor, coworker, or you know, someone right next to them in a store might be responsible.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  Consisting of almost 600 square miles, Livingston County is located in the southeastern part of the state. In 1980, the population of that county was around 100,000 people. Today, it's nearly doubled to just under 200,000. According to the most recent data available, Livingston County is home to many middle and upper-income families. And when it comes to crime, it's one of the safest areas of Michigan to live in. But that wasn't always the case. Beginning in 1981, a series of disturbing and brutal murders began.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  On September 29th, 1981, the body of Anne Marie Doragazi was found in a ditch about 20 feet from the side of the road in Milford, Michigan. The 20-year-old had not been seen in a few days, since the evening of the 26th. At the time, she had been working at Camp Dearborn, a 626-acre campground located off of General Motors Road. She lived in a trailer on site and could often be seen walking down General Motors Road on her way to or from the Speedway Gas Station for a snack and cigarette run.

• 3:27Speaker 02

  Anne Marie's body was found off of General Motors Road, the same street that she walked down regularly, just half an hour after she was officially reported missing. Staff members at the camp had the weekend off. So when she didn't return, it didn't set off any real alarm bells. But by Tuesday, when she still wasn't there, it was clear that something was wrong. She had been left partially clothed, wearing her shoes and socks with her shirt pulled up over her head. Her pants and underwear were on the ground next to her body, but there was no sign of sexual assault. Her purse, which still had cash inside of it, was also close to her, and she was still wearing her jewelry. So robbery didn't seem like a motive. The medical examiner determined that Anne Marie had been strangled to death.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Although the examination couldn't determine exactly when she died, it was estimated to be sometime between the 26th and the 29th, which really doesn't narrow down any windows since she was last seen on the 26th and found on the 29th.

• 4:24Speaker 01

  Anne Marie's body, when it was found, was completely dry despite steady rain the night before, leading investigators to believe that she had been placed there that morning. There was a can of soda and a pack of cigarettes with her body. Milford Police Department Sergeant Ed Pilch told DetroitNews.com, "That scene was very odd. It didn't seem right. If police were right, it means that she had to have been held in some other location for a time before her killer moved her body to the spot where it was found near Camp Dearborn. Detectives didn't have much to go on and they had no real leads, but they knew that since

• 5:05Speaker 01

  she hadn't been robbed, that the motive for this murder was something else. And more, if as you go through some of these cases, you know, you can really tell when police are kind of up against it, meaning they don't have a lot to work with. You know, some crime scenes offer up a wealth of information and some very little. I mean, you could say that this one did offer up information. You know, there was still money in Anne Marie's purse. She still had her jewelry on. Okay, that doesn't scream out robbery at all, but then you look at the fact that her clothes

• 5:50Speaker 01

  were tampered with. You know, she was essentially almost naked, but there were no signs of sexual assault. So I think if you're, you know, law enforcement, you're trying to figure out what all of that means.

• 6:05Speaker 02

  It's a very confusing set of clues. The fact that she's not robbed, she's not sexually assaulted. It almost seems like the only motive maybe was just murdering her and, you know, short of maybe they were going to do something else and maybe got scared off or something like that happened. But yeah, it's a, it's a strange set of circumstances. And one thing that jumps out to me is If you're a resident in that area, we mentioned this is a woman that was always walking down the road. People would see her and say, oh, there she goes again. And, you know, to have this happen to someone like that, that you see in your town, going

• 6:47Speaker 02

  back and forth on the same street all the time. I think it really puts into perspective how close to home something like this is.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  And then there's the element that, you know, it seems as though her body was kept somewhere else. Because of the rain, her body being dry meant that it was most likely put there after it had rained. So, I mean, I, I don't know, man. If you're investigators, you're just trying to sort things out, figure things out. But there's not a lot here.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Retired Detroit homicide detective Bill Peterson told Hometown Life.com that the killer wanted Anne Marie to be found, saying, "If he had wanted to dispose of the body, he would have chosen certainly a different place. The body was clearly in view from the road." Sergeant Pilch agreed, telling Detroit News.com, "If you really wanted to hide a body, there are several wooded and remote areas it could have been done and possibly never found." Sadly, with no solid leads or witnesses, and in a time before DNA could help the case along, Anne Marie's case grew cold. For some time after the murder, Livingston County residents talked amongst themselves about the case. But as time passed, it was less and less on their minds, until another body turned up.

• 8:08Speaker 01

  On March 20th, 1982, 16-year-old Kimberly Luisell didn't return to her home in South Lyon, Michigan. She hadn't been home in days, and had been spending a lot of time at the home of her boyfriend, Robert, who lived in Redford, about 25 miles away. Kimberly's disappearance wasn't treated as urgent by authorities, who believed she had likely just run away from home. But her sister Cindy, who was 13 at the time, has always disagreed with that notion. Cindy told the Livingston Daily News, she called to say she was coming home. She wasn't a runaway, but her parents didn't approve of Kimberly's relationship with her boyfriend

• 8:50Speaker 01

  because he was a few years older than her and investigators thought she was probably just out being a little bit rebellious. She had been having trouble in school because she skipped so much in order to be able to hitchhike to her boyfriend's house without her parents knowing. They were even threatening to send her somewhere else for her education, somewhere far from her boyfriend. Sometimes Kimberly even took her sister Cindy with her during these excursions.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  Both police and Kimberly's parents waited anxiously, hoping she'd be home soon. But the last day that anyone saw Kimberly on March 20th, the relationship between her and her boyfriend was kind of rocky. Some sources say that he broke up with her, while others note that they just discussed breaking up. Either way, he had gone to work and she left on foot trying to get back home. When he last saw her, she apparently was upset by their discussion or argument and she didn't want to sit around waiting for him to get home. Her boyfriend's younger brother walked Kimberly to the intersection of Centralia Road and Six Mile Road and waited with her until someone pulled over and offered her a ride. He felt like the person who was going to give her a ride was a little bit weird, so he actually made sure to remember the license plate number.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  Ain't no more if we talk about hitchhiking a lot, but in 82, a lot of people were still hitchhiking, even though I think the dangers by then were pretty well-known. It just didn't stop people from hitchhiking. Now, there was no Uber, no Lyft, nothing like that. So you either had your own car or you were able to get someone to take you somewhere or you hitchhiked.

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was so common back then. I remember even in my small town, I'd always see people hitchhiking. And it was people, not just hitchhiking, but people also going out of their way to pick people up. And I think most times it was a nice, you know, deed that was being done and the person got where they're going safely. But we know that sometimes that wasn't always the case. And you just imagine this, this boy that she's with is sizing this guy up saying, now he just looks kind of sus. I'm going to take his license plate number down. And it's, it's crazy to think that just looking at somebody, you would think, ah, he looks fine. Or, you know, he looks kind of creepy. I'm going to take his license plate number down.

• 11:18Speaker 02

  Imagine if that was Ted Bundy, you know, pulling up, he probably wouldn't have taken his license plate number down because he looked so, so average.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  But I do think it says something about what this kid thought, right? About the, either the looks of the driver, the vibe of the driver. There was something there. There had to have been for him to say, oh, I'm, I'm going to memorize this license plate number.

• 11:44Speaker 02

  And good for him for doing that because he took that extra step to say, hey, you know, just in case I'm going to remember this.

• 11:51Speaker 01

  But despite the driver being a bit odd, he delivered Kimberly safely. And she was dropped off on the corner of Eight Mile Road and Merriman Road, where she used a payphone to call people she knew to ask for a ride. She was still about 20 miles from home. Around 6:30 PM, she was spotted by an acquaintance who was driving by the area. She was wearing jeans and a faux fur jacket at the time. This is the last time anyone knew Kimberly's whereabouts. It seems like she wasn't able to find a ride from anyone she knew, and likely decided to try to walk until she found another ride or made it home. Sadly, she'd never make it home.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  Kimberly's body was found almost a month later on April 14th. A couple was walking along a trail in the Island Lake Recreation Area off of Grand River and Kinzie.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  When they discovered her remains, this area was about seven miles from her home. She was completely nude. None of her clothing or any of her personal belongings were ever recovered. She had been beaten, sexually assaulted and strangled. It was estimated that she had been dead for four to six days, despite being last seen almost a month before.

• 13:11Speaker 02

  Dynamite and blasting caps were actually discovered during the search near Kimberly's body. Police determined that it was completely unrelated to the case, but it posed a very real danger. According to the Daily Press in Argus, there were more than 50 live explosive charges left unattended by Cangio, a company based in Marysville, Michigan, that was searching the area for oil and natural gas. Lieutenant William Partner, commander of the Michigan State Police, referred to it in the article as gross negligence. Both police and Kimberly's killer were pretty lucky that they didn't accidentally stumble across any of it while they were in the area.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  So that's a little scary, right? You've got these explosives. It sounds like anybody could have just walked up there and accidentally caused the, you know, big explosion. But then obviously you have the murder and you have to compare it to the other one that we talked about. There are some similarities, but there are some big differences. Kimberly was sexually assaulted where Anne Marie was not. They were both strangled. Kimberly was beaten, but it seems like both of them were kept for some period of time

• 14:31Speaker 01

  before their bodies were dumped, for the lack of a better word.

• 14:37Speaker 02

  Now, although there are a couple of differences, as you mentioned, there are similarities. To me, I'm thinking if you're the police, you have to at least, until you can rule something out or rule something in, you have to think that these cases may be related. You know, two lone women in this county within a relatively short span. How could you not think there could be a something to it? So I think for police, it was better to err on the side of caution and until something would tell them that, hey, these are two different cases not connected.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Something else about the area where Kimberly's body was left was a clue to police its location. It was not a well-known or traveled area. And police believe that if her body was dumped there in the dark, the killer must have known the area well and likely was local. The specific area where her body was found was on a field behind a park and ride. The park and ride is a designated area off the main road where people can park, usually for free, and take public transportation. This park and ride consisted of a tiny dirt lot cut out in the middle of thick trees. There's no lighting nearby.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  There was a fence separating the lot from the woods, but there was one part of the fence that was broken, allowing local teens to use the area as a shortcut and get to the gravel pits where they would swim. If the killer didn't know about the hole in the fence, they would have had to have lifted Kimberly's body up and over and then scaled themselves to get to the area where she was found. Approaching the area from any other direction would have meant a long stretch through the woods. So it's assumed that her killer pulled into that lot. Kimberly's sister Cindy said in an interview with the Livingston Daily News, how would they have gotten back there if they didn't know about that area?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  Once again, police were stuck. They had no suspects, no witnesses, and no real motive. And Kimberly's case cooled off. And this is something that comes up in a lot of cases, right? You're off the beaten path. So, you know, authorities have to take that into consideration. Would an outsider know about this place? Would they know that there's a hole in this fence? Or did somebody just happen upon it? And what's the likelihood of that scenario? It does make it seem as though this is most likely someone local to the area

• 17:28Speaker 01

  who knew about the park and ride, knew about the hole in the fence. And to me, that would shape the investigation.

• 17:38Speaker 02

  And I don't know if it's a scary proposition that the killer is someone that lives in the area as opposed to someone that's passing through like a drifter. You know, I think both would be scary. If you've got some stranger coming into your town committing these crimes, but the possibility that they lived there, knew this area, that's frightening all on its own.

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• 19:23Speaker 02

  On March 19th, 1983, just one day short of exactly one year to the day that Kimberly Louisell was last seen, there was another suspicious disappearance. At the time, 19-year-old Christina Castiglione was living with her parents in Redford. She had recently started working as a clerk in the research department at Detroit Edison Company and was also interested in joining the Army. Some reports note that her father took away her driving privileges, while others state that she sold her car because the insurance cost was too expensive. Either way, instead of driving her Mustang around town, she had to walk and hitch rides. The last time anyone saw her, she was walking down five-mile road near Beach Daily Road,

• 20:05Speaker 02

  which is just west of US Highway 24. It was about 8:00 PM.

• 20:10Speaker 01

  Christopher, the guy Christina was dating at the time, saw her walking while he and his friends were on the way to a party. He didn't tell his friends to stop and pick her up, because she didn't like those particular friends of his. They stopped at a liquor store shortly after they saw her. So Christopher started walking back toward Christina to talk to her, but she was gone. Christina's mother called the police to report her missing on March 21st. On March 29th, 10 days after she was last seen, Christina's body was found by a hunter behind a park-and-ride in the Oak Grove State Game Area in Deerfield Township.

• 20:51Speaker 01

  She was partially clothed, wearing only a t-shirt, and it was clear that she had been beaten and strangled. An autopsy would confirm that she had been sexually assaulted. Despite this being years before DNA would make its way into courtrooms, the medical examiner collected and preserved foreign DNA sample from her body.

• 21:14Speaker 02

  Investigators believe that Christina was killed very shortly after her boyfriend saw her walking. Her body had to have been left in the area before a snowstorm that happened after that last sighting of her. And she had obviously been there since before the snow started melting. Investigators initially suspected Ron Lotilla, the man that discovered Christina's body. One of the first things that made him seem suspicious to detectives was that he had claimed to have been out hunting and fishing when he found her body, but he didn't have any weapons or fishing rods, which made them wonder what he had really been doing out there. His brother also owns some property in that area, not too far from where Christina was last seen. When he said he had no problem taking a polygraph exam and then never showed

• 21:57Speaker 02

  up for it, it made it look like he knew he had something to hide. Investigators eventually lost track of him after he moved to New Jersey. At some point, he was involved in an accident that injured him and caused a loss of function in his legs. It's not clear if investigators just never felt there was enough hard evidence to pursue him more as a suspect, or if they felt that if it was him, at least he couldn't do it again. Either way, he was never charged in her murder and the case remained officially open.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  And I think more, you know, like the first two cases, there, there are some similarities here. Christina was sexually assaulted, beaten, strangled. There was strangulation in all three of these cases. And, you know, this hunter who found her, it does seem a little suspicious. If you say you're out hunting and fishing, but you don't have a gun or fishing rods, okay, well, you're either a terrible hunter and/or fisherman, or you're not telling the truth.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Yeah. And sometimes someone will lie about something like that, not because they're the killer, but because maybe they're doing something else shady that they didn't want police to know about. And, you know, how many times do we talk about it being someone that's a hunter or out in the woods that just happens to randomly find these bodies? You know, it's, it happens so often.

• 23:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, my thought on that is a lot of times bodies are dumped in places where, you know, most people just have no reason to go to, but a hunter might. The other thing that, you know, really kind of stuck out to me was her boyfriend, seeing her trying to walk back to talk to her, but then all of a sudden she's gone. Is that because, you know, she got into a car, she was snatched up off the street? Or he just was late and she was already gone by that time? I don't know.

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, from the, the research, it doesn't sound like it was that long a time span before he went back to where he had seen her. And there was just no sign of her. So it seems that whatever happened, happened pretty quickly.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  Well, and I said, you know, did she get into a car? Because there is kind of a hitchhiking angle, right? With some of these murders. So you could have a killer who's out stalking in his vehicle, his or her, I guess. I'm saying his, just because it's more likely to be a male, but cruising around, hoping that someone needs a ride. And that's a scary thought, right? The stalking aspect to these killers. You think about someone just going out every night, driving around,

• 25:00Speaker 01

  looking for that opportunity to present itself for them to claim their next victim. I think that's very scary.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  And by this point, there's been three similar murders in this county of women that are out on their own hitchhiking. So, you know, what, if you're in that area and you're someone that hitchhikes, where you have a loved one that hitchhikes, maybe your daughter or sister or something, you're probably thinking, all right, we've got to. Band together and do some carpooling or something to to get people around so they don't have to put themselves at risk hitchhiking.

• 25:42Speaker 01

  Christina was the third murdered girl in Livingston County in a span of two and a half years, and people were beginning to grow even more concerned as news spread of another body being found. Authorities started to wonder whether they were looking at one killer, possibly a serial killer, or more than one. And like you always say, more of what's scarier, right? One person killing multiple people or multiple killers out looking for victims. In Christina and Kimberly's cases, both of their bodies were found on state land near Park and Rides. Both Kimberly and Christina had brown hair

• 26:25Speaker 01

  and brown eyes. They were abducted on nearly the exact same date in different years. But as interesting as all of that was, there was no hard evidence to link their murders.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  The three murders grew cold, but the investigations were never inactive for long. Teams of dedicated investigators were tasked with looking into each case multiple times over the years, but there were never any new leads. Amazingly, the evidence collected at a crime scene in the early 1980s was perfectly preserved and stored for decades. Livingston County Sheriff Mike Murphy told Livingston Daily, "The work that was done back in 1983 to preserve the evidence, to process the scene, was an outstanding effort by everybody that was at the scene." Sometime in the early 2000s, the DNA sample collected from Christina Castiglione was entered in the CODIS, but there were no matches in

• 27:20Speaker 02

  the database. It did rule out, however, Ron Latilla, the man who discovered her body. His DNA did not match the killers.

• 27:28Speaker 01

  In 2022, both Christina's and Kimberly's cases were reopened. The Livingston County cold case team looked into Christina's murder while the Michigan State Police cold case unit gave Christina's case files to students from the Michigan State University School of Criminal Justice. In March of 2022, a grant was awarded to the Livingston County cold case team, which made it possible for investigators to retest evidence in older unsolved cases. The grant was through Season of Justice, a nonprofit dedicated to providing funding

• 28:08Speaker 01

  for investigative agencies and families to help solve cold cases and bring resolution to those impacted by unsolved violent crimes. In May of 2022, that DNA sample was sent to Authram Incorporated in Texas for analysis. Authram started by using a technique called forensic-grade genome sequencing, which helped give genealogists the information they needed to track down the killer's extended family members.

• 28:42Speaker 02

  Using this knowledge, the Livingston County cold case team was able to begin focusing their investigation on only the people the DNA could potentially belong to. First, they found the suspect's uncle. They were able to look at multiple nephews of that first man and figure out where they were in 1983, but none of them could have been the killer. There was another nephew, but he had passed away by then, so investigators had to find his living direct relatives, like a son or a brother, to be able to confirm whether their suspect was the deceased nephew. Luckily, the man had both a brother and a son who were willing to cooperate with the investigation. With their help, it was proven that the DNA could only belong to one man.

• 29:24Speaker 02

  It turns out that the person who killed Christina Castiglione was a man named Charles David Shaw. And there was more. DNA also proved that not only had Shaw kill Christina, but he had also murdered Kimberly. Police suspected that the same killer had been responsible in both cases, and they were proven right.

• 29:42Speaker 01

  Unfortunately for the families of Christina and Kimberly, Charles David Shaw would never face justice. Shaw was found dead in November of 1983, just nine months after he killed Christina. He was 27 years old. His mother found him hanging in the closet, but investigators didn't believe that he had purposely taken his own life. He was wearing women's clothing and shoes, and there was no note left. His official cause of death is listed as accidental sexual asphyxiation. There's no telling how many victims there would have been if he hadn't accidentally strangled himself to death.

• 30:25Speaker 01

  So I'm getting a little bit of some BTK vibes there with the wearing of women's clothing, the asphyxiating, you know, yourself. You know, I love that show Mindhunters. I think we've talked about it before. I don't know why they stopped it. I wish they would bring it back. But there is in the, in the last season of, that they aired, a scene where the guy who was playing BTK was doing some stuff in his house and he was caught by his wife. And for some reason, that always stands out to me. It's a very eerie scene. But this just reminded of me of that. It popped up in my head.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, it feels like there's definitely some BTK vibes here. And, you know, this guy seems like he's, could be a serial killer. You know, they've connected him to two victims so far. Not enough to connect him to the first. But, you know, he's looking good as somebody that is a, is a serial offender.

• 31:31Speaker 01

  Well, and, and, you know, with him dying just nine months after he killed Christina, and we said he was only 27 years old. It's hard not to think more of that. This is a guy who would have gone on to kill until he was caught. And you have to ask the question, how many victims could he have had if he had not accidentally strangled himself?

• 32:02Speaker 02

  Authorities couldn't work out any link between Shaw and Christina or Kimberly. They didn't seem to know each other or have any reason to cross paths. It must have been just random crimes of opportunity. Livingston County Sheriff Mike Murphy told Livingston Daily, "When there's a homicide, there's normally some sort of connection between the victim and the suspect. And in this case, there was none." Shawn was living in Livonia at the time, less than five miles from where Christina was last seen. He must have seen her shortly after the last verified sighting of her.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  Shaw's own family members didn't have many nice things to say about him. They had plenty of things that stuck out in hindsight, though. According to CBS News, they described him as a sex addict with a disturbing life. He was also said to have struggled with mental illness and his gender identity. Shaw's criminal record includes an eerie incident. He was arrested for trying to abduct a young woman in the parking lot of a McDonald's in Fowlerville, Michigan. This was in 1981. He served about two weeks in jail before he was released on probation. While Shaw was only charged for a failed abduction,

• 33:19Speaker 01

  this clearly could have been an early attempt to assault and murder a young woman. His next two victims, at least the ones we know about, didn't get away. Maybe if he was serving some real time, instead of just two weeks, Kimberly and Christina might be a lot. And this is something that always irks me. I just don't understand how, when you have tried to abduct someone, your punishment is two weeks. That just doesn't seem right.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  I get it, it was a failed abduction, but it was still an attempt to abduct. Again, I'm not a prosecutor, I don't know the exact...

• 34:10Speaker 01

  Charges or, or anything, or definitely what would have been in place in 1981, but two weeks seems kind of ridiculous to me.

• 34:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Some of these cases we talk about from the eighties or back, back in that timeframe, they're just, they blow your mind when you hear what somebody did. And then to get two weeks, that's, I mean, that's, that's nothing for trying to abduct someone, whether you were successful or not, you know, it's, it's just, uh, I don't know, it's kind of asinine.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm with you. And it's hard not to play that what if game, right? What if he had received some real time? You know, what would that have done? Would Kimberly and Christina still be alive? Now you can make the argument that no matter how much time he served, he was probably going to do this when he got out.

• 35:03Speaker 02

  And I think it's further evidence that he's a serial predator because we know he committed two murders and this may very well have been a, a third one that if he was successful.

• 35:16Speaker 02

  Even before 1981, Shaw had his run-ins with police. In 1973, he was arrested for breaking and entering in Livonia. He was arrested by the Livonia Police Department again in 1977, this time on charges of drug possession. Then, as we mentioned in 1981, he was arrested for kidnapping in Fallerville, about 50 miles away from Livonia. The next year, he was arrested for larceny after stealing women's shoes from a Kmart. Shaw's name was actually mentioned to authorities early on during the investigation into Kimberly's murder. There was nothing but the hunch of a property manager who thought that a former resident who had recently moved out of a unit in the area of Kimberly's abduction

• 35:57Speaker 02

  was mentally unstable and capable of something awful. The unit had been left in terrible condition. That resident was Charles David Shaw. It's not clear if police took the landlord's hunch seriously or checked into Shaw.

• 36:10Speaker 01

  And obviously more if we don't have all the details, right? Of what police did in the wake of this kind of hunch, right? By the property manager, but obviously this person was correct. This Charles David Shaw was a guy who should have been looked into. We just don't know if the police took it seriously or, or what they did.

• 36:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know. He came forward with a hunch just because he thought this guy was that strange. And the fact he turns out to be right is it's pretty fascinating. And you would have to wonder, you have to play the what if game. Could they have prevented other victims had they questioned this guy brought him in? Maybe he would have cracked or confessed or something and, and this would have been solved quickly.

• 37:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, on the flip side of it, right? Being strange is, is not a crime. So, you know, you got, you have to weigh that factor as well. As we mentioned earlier, there is information that indicates that Kimberly may have been held for some time after her abduction. And she had been missing almost a month when her body was found, but she had only been dead for about four to six days. Apparently her stomach contents didn't match the last meal she was known to have had. And the amount of decomposition when her body was discovered didn't line up with her having been dead since she was last seen. There are a couple of possibilities here.

• 37:47Speaker 01

  The first is that Kimberly had run off and stayed someplace willingly for some time before she crossed paths with Shaw. The other possibility is that he abducted her when she went missing and kept her alive somewhere for weeks before killing her.

• 38:08Speaker 02

  Shaw's name was actually brought up again to investigators in 2019 when his ex-wife called in a tip regarding the Oakland County child killer case. This is the name given to the suspect who's believed to have murdered at least four children in Michigan's Oakland County between 1976 and 1977. As far as we know from that investigation, Shaw isn't related to any of those crimes in any way, but it shows you what kind of person he was that people close to him would think it was even a possibility. We know now that Shaw had been dead a long time when she called that tip in about the Oakland County child killer. So there was no way the rumor was going to ruin his life. This gives more weight to it being a legitimate concern of hers and less of a scorned ex-spouse

• 38:53Speaker 02

  kind of thing. The timing lines up with the release of a documentary about the case. So it's not completely out of the question that she really was just watching a new documentary and felt that she could help the investigation.

• 39:05Speaker 01

  Kimberly's sister Cindy has done interviews over the years trying to bring attention to her sister's unsolved murder before her case was officially linked to Christina's. In an interview with Gray Hughes from the YouTube channel Gray Hughes Investigates, she mentioned that authorities told their mother that they believed her captor had repeatedly strangled her just until the point where she would pass out and that her death may have been an accident. Cindy was confused as to how they would come to that conclusion, but since Shaw died in this same manner, it certainly seems like a possibility.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  It's possible that there are other attempted abductions that Shaw was responsible for, and it's possible that he has more victims out there that he just can't be connected to because there's no DNA. It's honestly a miracle that DNA was even collected and properly stored in either of these solved cases, let alone that it survived as long as it did for testing and retesting. There are a few disappearances that could be connected to Shaw, but there's no hard evidence to prove it. Kimberly's sister Cindy believed that the disappearance of a girl named Kelly Brownlee could be related to Kimberly's murder. Cindy told Fox 2 Detroit, it is just too much of coincidence that they were pretty much within the same vicinity and the same timeframe.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  17-year-old Kelly Marie Brownlee was last seen at the 12 Oaks Mall in Novi, Michigan, on May 20th, 1982. She had brown hair and brown eyes, just like Kimberly and Christina. That mall is about a 10-minute drive from Eight Mile Road in Merriman, where Kimberly was last seen, and about a 20-minute drive from Five Mile Road in Beach Daily, where Christina was last seen. It's more than half an hour from East Point and an hour from McComb Township. Despite suspicion of Shaw and Kelly's disappearance, investigators seem to believe

• 41:08Speaker 01

  that her disappearance could be linked to a man named Arthur Nelson Reams, who claimed to have killed up to six people.

• 41:16Speaker 02

  Reams was convicted of killing 13-year-old Cynthia Zerziki, who disappeared from East Point, Michigan on April 20th, 1986.

• 41:25Speaker 02

  She was his son's girlfriend at the time. In 2008, Ream led investigators to McComb Township, Michigan, where they found her body. After hearing the claim that he was a serial killer, investigators kept searching the area, but didn't find any other bodies. Three of the five victims that investigators suspect he killed had blond hair and bluer green eyes. And it appears that Cynthia Zarziki fit this description, too. 13-year-old Cynthia Kuhn, who has also been connected to Ream's, had brown hair and brown eyes. She fit more of Charles Shaw's victim type. But Charles Shaw would have been 14 years old the year she disappeared.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  So we started this episode talking about the murder of Anne Marie Dorigazi. It's still unknown whether or not Shaw is responsible for her murder. She was killed the same year of his failed abduction attempt in 1981. Anne being found two days after she disappeared, but dry despite overnight rain and clearly visible from the road in basically the exact area she vanished from, makes it very likely that she was held like Kimberly, appears to have been. And when it comes to Anne, it's possible that she made some kind of last-minute

• 42:44Speaker 01

  plan for the weekend and was kidnapped on her way back to camp after she had stopped at the Speedway and purchased a soda and pack of cigarettes. This is one case where any kind of surveillance footage would have been extremely helpful. There would have been a clear timeline if we knew exactly when she had been at the gas station.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  Investigators seem to have a strong lead in Anne Marie's murder that has led them to suspect someone in particular, but they've remained tight-lipped about who that suspect is. Talking about Ann's murder, Sergeant Ed Pilch told Hometown Life.com, "In my opinion, this case is not a whodunit." In fact, he said, "That within a few minutes of reading the material, we knew it could be solved. We know who is likely responsible, and we have been working to establish enough evidence to proceed. We believe she knew her murderer." That's a pretty strong feeling for a cold case with limited physical evidence. So there must be something in that case file that seems like a solid lead that makes them drawn to the suspect.

• 43:47Speaker 01

  Police seem pretty sure they know who killed Ann, but even Kimberly's relatives were convinced that her killer was someone she knew and trusted. That turned out not to be the case. She didn't know Shaw. Ann's brother, Bill Dorogazi, told DetroitNews.com, "Sometimes it seems like they have a strong suspect and are really close to breaking something, and then nothing." As of the time of this recording, Ann Marie Dorogazi's case is still one of two listed on the Milford Police Department's cold case page. If you have any information about Ann's murder, you can contact the Milford Police Detective

• 44:28Speaker 01

  Bureau by calling 248-684-1815. And if you have any information about Charles David Shaw and any potential crimes he's responsible for, you can also contact authorities to call in your tip. You never know what could be helpful and might solve the decades-old cold case. So as we wrap this episode up more, you know, we talked about a number of murders, two of which, you know, were connected to Shaw. As I always tend to think, it's probably more likely than not that he had other victims that police just haven't connected him to yet.

• 45:15Speaker 01

  The one thing that, you know, really jumped out at me here at the end was the police talking about Anne Marie's murder and basically saying, you know, this is not a whodunit. They know who it is or who they believe it is, and they just haven't been able to put enough evidence together to charge that individual. But they also said, we believe she knew her murderer.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Now, that's pretty interesting because, you know, out of the three cases, hers was a little bit different than the other two because the other two were sexually assaulted and she hadn't been, you know, she wasn't robbed. So maybe there was like a beef that someone had with her and that was the reason for a murder. So I can understand why police might be keen on somebody else over Shaw in her case.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, we said there are similarities, but it did stand out to me, right? Anne Marie's murder versus the other two women. In her case, there were definitely some differences and you pointed some of those out. No sexual assault, no robbery. So what are you left with? If it's not a stranger murder, then basically what you're most likely looking at is someone who had a problem with her. As you said, a beef and took out their rage or their frustration on her and killed her.

• 46:55Speaker 01

  And it kind of seems as though that's what the police are alluding to. Now, whether they'll ever be able to put enough together to charge that person, you know, we'll have to wait on and see on that.

• 47:11Speaker 02

  Well, and thankfully they did solve two of the three cases and linked them to the Shaw guy and what a scumbag he turned out to be. And, you know, to this point, he hasn't been connected to other murders, but it wouldn't surprise me in the future if his DNA winds up being found and links him to other cases.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it wouldn't surprise me either. The one thing that I think may limit that is just the fact that when you're talking about the early 80s, how much did they collect? How was it stored? And did it basically survive all those years? It's less likely, right? Than a murder case that just happened within the last 10 years. But no doubt, Charles David Shaw was a nasty, nasty individual. But that's it for our episode on the Livingston County murders. As always, if you love the show but haven't done it yet, take a minute, go out, leave us a review, a rating. Also,

• 48:18Speaker 01

  keep telling your friends. Word of mouth about the podcast really helps us out.

• 48:23Speaker 02

  If you want to find us on social media, run every major platform. Just search for Criminology Podcast on your favorites. You can also join our Facebook discussion group, Criminology Podcast Discussion and Fans, and discuss the show and cases we've covered. And for news about the show and old episodes, head over to criminologypodcast.com.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  So that's it for another episode of Criminology, but Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then, for Mike

• 48:52Speaker 02

  And Morph.

• 48:53Speaker 01

  We'll talk to you next week.

• 48:55Speaker 02

  Take care, everyone.