Pod Insights Criminology The Littleton Colorado Mysteries About this episode As this episode drops, CrimeCon is taking place in Denver, Colorado. We're diving into a couple mysteries that occurred in Littleton, about 10 miles away from Denver. These are cases that garnered much less attention than other crimes, such as the Columbine shootings. But the circumstances of each make them very perplexing. Join Mike and Morf as they delve into the mysteries of Littleton, Colorado. The first case involves a triple murder in 2002 at a bowling alley called the AMF Broadway Lanes. The second case is the murder of two teenagers in 2000 at a Subway sandwich shop just blocks from Columbine High School. You can help support the show through Patreon. We'd love to connect with listeners on social media. We are available on the following platforms: Facebook - Facebook Discussion group - Instagram - Threads - X Formerly Twitter - Blue Sky - Twitch - Tik Tok Criminology is an Emash Digital production hosted by Mike Ferguson and Mike Morford.
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised.
0:37 Speaker 01 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 375 of the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson.
0:43 Speaker 02 And this is Mike Morford.
0:45 Speaker 01 Mr. Morford, how are you doing this week, buddy?
0:47 Speaker 02 I'm doing good. I'm excited to record this episode because that means that when this comes out, I'm at CrimeCon and that's always a fun thing that I do during the year.
0:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah. And again, I am sad that I'm gonna miss it. You know, we're taping this one a couple of weeks ahead of time just to be ready. But as each day passes, I get a little more and more sad that I'm not gonna be there.
1:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, we'll definitely miss you and hopefully everyone there will still have fun. And I think at the time this drops, we'll probably be having our joint TCAT and Criminology meetup. So, you know, maybe we can listen in person to the episode.
1:28 Speaker 01 That'd be pretty interesting, actually. Well, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Christopher Kilgore jump out at our highest level and Charlie. So that's a lot of great new support. We really appreciate it.
1:43 Speaker 02 Thanks so much for that support. It really helps out the show and for anyone else that would like to head over to patreon.com/criminology to get started.
1:51 Speaker 01 So more of talking about CrimeCon. This episode will air, you know, when you guys are at CrimeCon. So we decided to look into a couple of cases connected to Colorado. And we found two really interesting cases that happened in Littleton, Colorado, with one of them even reaching California. Littleton, just 10 miles southwest of Denver, is considered a municipality, and it currently has a population of about 45,000 residents. Littleton is just a few miles from the infamous 1999 school shooting at Columbine. While that infamous crime shocked that entire region of Colorado,
2:34 Speaker 01 the nation, and really the world, the cases we're talking about in this episode didn't get near as much attention. The first case we're looking into happened at a bowling alley called AMF Broadway Lanes, which once stood at 5485 South Broadway in Littleton. Sometimes when this case is discussed online, it's referenced as the bowling alley where the two Columbine shooters took bowling lessons. But that's not true. There were multiple bowling alleys nearby. It must have been a popular pastime in the area. Though AMF Broadway Lanes was not part of the Columbine High School mass shooting,
3:16 Speaker 01 the location saw its own tragedy less than three years later.
3:20 Speaker 02 For the three victims, January 27, 2002 was just another day. 27-year-old Aaron Gola and 30-year-old James Springer were working the closing shift at the bowling alley. 23-year-old Robert Zajak, who most often went by Bobby, was bowling and hanging out until closing because he was waiting for James to give him a ride home. Bobby worked at a different bowling alley in town, but he enjoyed the sport and spent a lot of his spare time bowling. He was an accomplished bowler who had won awards, and many people thought that he would one day be a professional. He was once able to boast a perfect score of 300. That night in January, he just happened to be at AMF Broadway Lanes with James and Aaron.
4:01 Speaker 01 So Morf, I want to ask you, are you a bowler? Do you bowl?
4:06 Speaker 02 I used to bowl, and I could say I was pretty average at best. I never got anywhere close to a 300. How about you?
4:14 Speaker 01 No, yeah, I don't bowl on a regular basis, probably haven't been in four or five years, but every now and then it's, it's fun. You know, bowling's fun, especially when you've got a bunch of people and you're sitting around like you, average at best, you know, 140, 150. No, no, I'm not even cracking 200 and certainly not flirting with 300, which is pretty amazing. Really. I know a lot of people can do it or have done it, but it's, it's quite a feat.
4:45 Speaker 02 And it seems like bowling alleys are fewer and few and far between nowadays. I know back in the eighties, especially when I was a teenager, they were very popular and it seems like they dissipated with time.
4:58 Speaker 01 Well, heck, when the Wii came out, you could just bowl, you know, on your, your TV. No, no need to go out, rent shoes, even leave the house.
5:08 Speaker 02 Can't beat that.
5:09 Speaker 01 James, the manager of the bowling alley, wasn't going to leave or take Bobby home until Erin had been picked up. As the manager, he would have to lock up and he didn't want Erin, a single mother with two young girls, waiting for her at home to have to wait outside alone at night. This probably wasn't something that was required of him as a manager. He's been described as an all around good guy and family man with two young kids of his own. In a report by KDVR Fox 31, he was described as a gentle giant. At 11:40 PM, Erin called one of her friends and let her know that she was almost done at work and
5:53 Speaker 01 was ready for a ride. Her friend headed right over, arriving about 10 minutes after she made the call. This was around 11:50. As she pulled into the lot and parked her car near the entrance, she saw someone coming out. She figured it was a straggling bowler who stayed till the last minute or someone she didn't know who worked there and had been closing up. The man who has been described as both a young adult and as middle aged. Was white with a shaved bald head, about six feet tall and wearing a dark trench coat that went down past his knees as the man made his way to a dark colored, late model pickup truck.
6:38 Speaker 01 He looked right at Erin's friend and sort of smirked at her. Then he got into his truck and drove away, heading south down Broadway.
6:48 Speaker 02 After a few minutes of waiting, Erin's friend decided to go inside and let her know that she was there. It was odd for Erin to not just come right out when her ride was there. The friend figured that if the man she saw leaving the bowling alley had been a customer that stayed very late, Erin might be inside finishing up a few things she couldn't do until he was gone. But Erin wasn't inside attending the last minute closing task. Everything was quiet. The friend called Erin's name, but there was no response. She made her way through the empty bowling alley to the office where she found the bodies of Erin, James and Bobby. They had all been shot. The safe kept inside the office was open and empty. Terrified, Erin's friend immediately called the police who raced to the scene.
7:32 Speaker 02 The bowling alley was sealed off and the investigation officially began.
7:36 Speaker 01 And here's one of those things more that, you know, sometimes pops up in, in a case. Erin sees this guy leave the bowling alley. Now, you don't make much of stuff like that. You know, like she would later say, that's probably just a bowler who just finished up and, you know, was headed home. Now the smirk, okay, that obviously takes on something different. After the discovery of the bodies, after it's known that a triple murder occurred. And this guy does as well. But as she's seeing him, it's probably not that big a deal.
8:18 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's gotta be a frightening scene to walk in on. You know, you're looking for your friend just there to give them a ride and you stumble upon this crime scene, these three bodies. And she must've been terrified and maybe even afraid that, hey, that guy I just saw, maybe that's the guy that did it and he's going to come back in and shoot me too. So. She probably was panicking, waiting for the police to get there.
8:43 Speaker 01 It's worth noting that there is a very tight timeline in this case. One that allowed the killer to come in, commit the crime and then escape all within a span of minutes. Everything seemed fine around 1140, when Erin called her friend for a ride. But by 1150, when that friend showed up, everyone inside the bowling alley was already dead. That's only 10 minutes, actually less than that if you take into account that the likely perpetrator was already on his way out at 1150 and nothing was wrong at 1140. It could be closer to maybe five to eight minutes that we're actually looking at here.
9:26 Speaker 01 The bowling alley had been broken into just one week earlier. On January 20th, the safe was damaged, but whoever broke in didn't manage to get it open. The leading theory is that this person returned on January 27th, when there would be an employee there to open it. The safe being open and empty certainly makes it look like a robbery. But why didn't the suspect just take the money and flee? Why kill three people?
9:57 Speaker 02 If the three were killed during a robbery, so that they couldn't identify the suspect, why did he simply smirk at the friend in the parking lot and leave? Wouldn't she be a good eyewitness too? Why not eliminate her as a witness? That leads to the possibility that the killer was someone known to one or more of the three victims, and they had to be eliminated. And perhaps Erin's friend was a stranger to them. The question also needs to be asked. If the victims cooperated with the killer and they didn't know him, why would he feel the need to execute them? It's always possible that one of the victims tried to fight back or flee, causing their attacker to start shooting. Maybe James, with his larger stature and good heart, did something to try to protect Erin that set off the suspect.
10:40 Speaker 01 And I think this is a question that's asked in a lot of cases like this. Where you have a robbery, robberies happen all the time. And often, you know, there is someone there at the establishment that is being robbed. If the robber is able to get what they want, if the people are complying and they're giving the robber what they want, why the need to kill them, right? That's a question that people ask all the time. And there are a lot of answers that could apply. Maybe the person wanted to make sure there were no witnesses left behind.
11:23 Speaker 01 Like you said, more, maybe this attacker was known to one or more of the victims.
11:30 Speaker 02 I'll say one thing, if that killer is the same person that struck a week earlier and tried to break into the safe and they came back and committed this crime, that's pretty brazen of them because you would think that just a week after something like that, the bowling alley might have more security, be on high alert, just be doing things to try and, you know, make sure there's no more targeting of them or robberies of them. So for them to come back that fast and do this, if it was them, it takes a lot of balls.
12:05 Speaker 01 Yeah, I agree with you because if my house was broken into, you better believe, I mean, I'm already on guard, but I'm going to be extra vigilant. I'm going to be changing locks, adding security, I'm going to be doing all these things. And you would think a business would too, seem strange to just a week later, try to hit that business again, when they're probably most on their, on guard. Now, there's a lot of talk online about two jackets found at the scene that didn't belong to any of the three victims. We couldn't find any specific information about them, but it could have been included
12:48 Speaker 01 in a segment on America's Most Wanted, which was also not readily available. Perhaps one or both jackets were left behind by the killer. The problem is, it's possible that these jackets are not connected to the crime or the killer at all, and were just left behind by patrons of the bowling alley. This possibility is reinforced due to Aaron's friend seeing a man believed to be the killer fleeing while wearing a long trench coat. Investigators were able to determine that the weapon used in the murders was a handgun. If they know the make or model of the gun that was used, they haven't released that information.
13:28 Speaker 02 In March of 2002, just two months after the bowling alley murders, three Littleton residents traveled to California, and they didn't make it home dying in a murder-suicide. This has led to some people asking if the killer in this incident may have been responsible for the bowling alley murders. On March 26, three bodies were found on a cliff near Bonny Doon Beach, about seven miles north of Santa Cruz, California. All three victims, one man and two women, had been shot in the head. Cesar Pacheco, one of the men who found the bodies, was shaken to say the least. He told the Santa Cruz Sentinel, "It's not a cool thing when you come to see the sunset and you see this." Dr. Richard T. Mason, Santa Cruz County's forensic pathologist, told the San Francisco
14:12 Speaker 02 Gate that the bodies were lying in a kind of circle near a sleeping bag. He said the women were both seated with their legs out in front of them, slumped forward, and he was seated behind them. A solid-off Remington Sportsman 12-gauge pump-action shotgun was on the ground in the middle of the bodies.
14:29 Speaker 01 Investigators were able to identify the three victims, as 19-year-old Brenda White, 19-year-old Melinda Leppe, and 26-year-old David Arthur Bachman, who were all from the town of Littleton, Colorado. Authorities believe that Bachman killed Brenda and Melinda, who were both sitting on beach towels, looking out at the ocean, when they were shot in the back of the head before taking his own life. He had one gunshot wound to his forehead. There are some reports that Melinda and Brenda were shot in the head and in the chest, but that's incorrect. Only three shell casings, one per person, were found at the scene.
15:10 Speaker 01 According to Santa Cruz County Coroner Steve Plaskett to the Santa Cruz Sentinel, the history of the relationship between the three people doesn't support the theory that the three were part of a murder-suicide pact. Police were not sure how long the trio had been in California, although three of them had ties to the South Tahoe area in California.
15:36 Speaker 02 News of the three deaths shocked people that knew them. Recollections of David Bachman differed. South Tahoe High School Principal Karen Ellis described him to the Tahoe Daily Tribune as a wonderful young man, while one former classmate said he was a smart, funny guy who seemed pretty together, adding that he was not an angry young man. A different former classmate recalled that he never seemed happy, explaining that he always seemed frustrated or angry.
16:04 Speaker 01 And how many times have you heard that more? You know, a lot of times, I think, when you're talking about a victim, you know, most of what people have to say about them is very glowing, right? This person was great, all of that. But every now and then, you see differing opinions of people. And maybe that's because, you know, one person or a couple of people didn't get along with that person, or they saw a different side of that person. It's just interesting to hear what people have to say. He's a wonderful young man to some. He's a person who never seemed happy and was always frustrated and
16:49 Speaker 01 angry to others.
16:51 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think it really comes down to that person's interactions, their experiences together, maybe their personalities clashed and they just didn't get along. And it is interesting to see how some people view one person in a different light than other people.
17:08 Speaker 01 Brenda White's friends and family never thought that any kind of suicide pact was possible. According to people who knew her, she had made a lot of plans, and she was going to move back to South Lake Tahoe. She was going to take night classes to get her GED, and she was also going to be the maid of honor in a friend's wedding. Melinda Lepi had plans too. While in California, she told her mother and one of her friends from high school about a tattoo she was excited to get when she was back in Colorado.
17:44 Speaker 02 Before traveling to California, the three lived in the same apartment complex in Littleton called Westlake Greens. Melinda and Brenda were best friends and had grown up together in South Lake Tahoe, California. Melinda and David, who also grew up in South Lake Tahoe, were dating and shared an apartment. All three of them had moved to Littleton in the spring of 2000 and moved out of their units in January 2002, about two months before their deaths. Bachman had lied to Melinda, claiming that he had won $5,000 in the Powerball lottery and that he was going to use it to pay for their life together. He also claimed he got hired at a mobile home park doing maintenance, but that was a lie too. He did have an interview for the job, but it was scheduled for March 28th, two days
18:29 Speaker 02 after his body was found.
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19:50 Speaker 01 Some online sleuths have tried to connect David Bachman to the Littleton bowling alley shootings and theorize that could be why he chose to die by suicide fearing the police would be on his heels. If Bachman is the one who robbed the bowling alley and killed Bobby, Aaron and James. He left no obvious trail of how he spent the money. It didn't seem like he spent it on any necessities like dependable tires for a car. On the way to California, the trio stopped in Reno, Nevada to visit Melinda's father. He saw the awful condition of the tires on their car and offered to buy new ones so that they could make their
20:33 Speaker 01 trip safely. Two ounces of marijuana were found with the three bodies on the beach, which back in 2002 was probably worth a couple of hundred bucks. The three had only about $1 between them when they died. So based on the lack of money and no clear connection between Bachman in the bowling alley besides online sleuths trying to make the connection, it's possible that David Bachman had nothing to do with the bowling alley murders. And I get why some people might be trying to connect Bachman to the bowling alley murders. The timing is there, right? You know, these people move out essentially the same month that the
21:18 Speaker 01 murders occur, but they don't head to California for a few weeks after that. And then obviously, David Bachman, you know, kills these two women and himself. So the theory on the part of many is that either he was remorseful for what he had done, or he just felt that, you know, police were going to catch up to him and he didn't want to be incarcerated.
21:47 Speaker 02 Yeah, the timing is certainly interesting, and I think that's the first thing that people spot when they say, okay, here's a double murder-suicide. The people are from Littleton, and just weeks before that, this mystery gunman had, you know, killed these people in the bowling alley. So I think it's only natural that you try and connect these two crimes together, maybe. But I just don't think there was really anything solid that links them. Most people that have studied the murder-suicides perpetrated by David Bachman felt that he was in a desperate situation. There was no way they were going to be able to make it back to Colorado without figuring out how to get money for gas and food on the way.
22:29 Speaker 02 Melinda's father, Ralph Leppi, told the Tahoe Daily Tribune, "When they had no money left and would have headed home, obviously all his lies would have been realized. I believe he backed himself in a corner and thought there was no other way out."
22:43 Speaker 01 David Bachman's vehicle might also rule him out as being responsible for the bowling alley deaths. The vehicle that Aaron's friend saw, the suspect getting into, was a dark pickup truck. And two months later, David Bachman was driving a 1984 white Dodge Colt. Most people agree that photos of David Bachman look absolutely nothing, like the sketch of the bald man seen getting into the truck. The timing of everything may be pretty coincidental. All three of the victims in California had moved out of their apartments in Littleton to take a road trip the same month of the bowling alley murders.
23:24 Speaker 01 But it's unclear whether they made their plans before or after the murders happened.
23:30 Speaker 02 Recent articles and press releases about the bowling alley murders haven't included the composite sketch, so it's possible that the authorities have lost confidence in its usefulness over the years. This sketch isn't included on the FBI's online information sheet about this case either. Maybe they figure the perpetrator's appearance has changed in the nearly quarter of a century since the murders. Or maybe they've decided they don't want people to second-guess calling in their tips if the person they suspect doesn't quite fit the composite.
24:00 Speaker 01 By mid-July 2015, AMF Broadway Lanes was officially closed. It seemed like there might be an incoming break in the case in February of 2021, when authorities announced that they were using forensic genetic genealogy, new technology to find a person of interest. Littleton Police Chief Doug Stevens told KDVR News, "Investigators are reviewing and retesting evidence, including items from the trash can in the men's room as well as on the property. These items have apparently never been revealed to the public, and it's unknown why investigators believe they could be relevant.
24:43 Speaker 01 Maybe the theory is that the suspect hid inside the bathroom until everyone else left, or maybe one of these items had blood on it, as if the killer had washed up before leaving the scene."
24:55 Speaker 02 In June 2021, investigators searched an area of the Platt River near Interstate 270, between York Street and Vasquez Boulevard in Littleton. We never learned what exactly they were hoping to discover, and if they did end up finding or collecting any evidence, the public hasn't been informed about it. This could mean they have something of interest that only someone involved with the murders would know about. But after four years since the search was done, with no apparent movement on the case, you'd think they would reveal something. If they found the smoking gun, it's likely they would have moved in on, or at least named the suspect by now. Back in 2021, Chief Stevens told KDVR,
25:35 Speaker 02 "This community, especially the families of James, Aaron, and Robert, deserve answers. We believe people familiar with the circumstances surrounding this case remain in our community. It's not too late to come forward."
25:48 Speaker 01 At one time, there was a $30,000 reward being offered in this case, although it's not clear if it's still available. If you have any information about the murders of Aaron Gola, James Springer, and Bobby Zajak, you can contact the FBI's Denver Field Office by calling 303-629-7171. You can also contact Crime Stoppers by phone at 720-913-7867, or go to their website, MetroDenverCrimeStoppers.com.
26:25 Speaker 01 So as we get ready to transition into our second case more, you know, there was one thing that that I meant to say earlier on, but I'll say it now. You know, there are quite a few cases of murder that involve bowling alleys. You know, many of them quite infamous. And I just wonder if that's because, you know, late at night, there's likely to be very few people in there, just the workers, you know, around closing time. And maybe it was thought that, you know, this was a cash business more so than others. Maybe
27:08 Speaker 01 I, I don't know, but that we've done some and there are quite a few others that we haven't covered.
27:15 Speaker 02 Yeah, that's a great point that you make. I can think of a number of different bowling alley cases. And for some reason, it does seem to be a popular target for people to commit these kinds of crimes. And maybe, as you said, maybe there's a lot of cash involved or, you know, criminals think there is. And maybe they think they store the money in the safes. And when they commit these crimes, there's going to be a jackpot in there for them. And a lot of times, it seems like there isn't that much cash. They commit these heinous crimes. And at the end of the day, it doesn't seem like they necessarily get a lot of money. It seems like a huge risk to risk your freedom. And, you know, depending on where you're
27:59 Speaker 02 at, maybe your, your life, if you're found guilty and executed for the crime, to get a minimal score like, like a lot of times they do.
28:08 Speaker 01 And I want to go back to, you know, this person is thought to be, you know, one person, right? It's thought to be this guy, Aaron Saul, leaving the, the place because of the, the timing of everything. If this guy got what he wanted, as far as, you know, the money, the people inside complied, gave it to him, why did he kill him? And there are a couple of different things that you can theorize regarding that. One is that, you know, he was known to one or more of the victims and could easily be identified. The other is that he didn't know them, but didn't want to take a chance.
28:54 Speaker 01 On them going to police and giving a description. But then you have to ask that question. He obviously saw Aaron's friend in the parking lot. Why would he leave her alive then? He obviously, he had to have known that she was going to be able to give a description of him.
29:16 Speaker 02 That's what I think is really frustrating in this case is that she did see him, assuming he's the killer. He has a general description, although the age, you know, sort of varied in different reports. Maybe she wasn't sure of the age, but she gave a pretty good description of his vehicle. He was bald and just frustrating to have that much of a clue and even make sketches of this person at one time, but have no resolution. And I think it's very likely there was no security cameras. If this crime happened today, there'd probably be a number of security cameras in the area that might have captured a license plate, information that might help them ID his truck. I just don't think that he'd be able to get away with this crime as easily if he did it today.
30:02 Speaker 01 Well, and all, and I'm also curious as to why it seems they are no longer using the composite sketch. I get it, years have passed, but could you not update the sketch to reflect what this guy may look like now? I don't know. It's like they've lost faith in it somehow. But hopefully this is one that, you know, maybe the forensic genetic genealogy testing that, that we talked about comes through at some point. And they can figure out who this guy is.
30:41 Speaker 02 The second case we're looking at a little in this week took place at a Subway sandwich shop just blocks from Columbine High School. The store located at 6768 West Coal Mine Avenue in Littleton is still there and still in operation. On February 14th, 2000, just before 1:00 in the morning, the bodies of 15-year-old Nicholas Kunsleman and his girlfriend, 16-year-old Stephanie Hart Griselle, were found behind the counter inside the subway. They had both been shot sometime earlier in the night. Another employee at the location had been driving by and noticed that the store was still lit up and it was far past closing time. So they decided to stop in and check on things. It was this employee that called police after finding the bodies.
31:26 Speaker 01 Nick worked at the shop and was supposed to lock up when the store closed and Stephanie was just visiting, hanging out while he did the closing routine and waiting for him to be done with work. Stephanie's mother Kelly didn't know anything was wrong until Valentine's Day morning when Stephanie wasn't in her room and her car wasn't in the driveway. She had last seen Stephanie the night before, wearing her pajamas and finishing up her algebra homework. After her mother went to sleep, expecting Stephanie to head to bed after she was done with her schoolwork, Stephanie snuck out to see Nick at work. She was obviously
32:06 Speaker 01 expecting to return home and leave no sign that she had even snuck out. Kelly turned on the TV and saw a news report about the murders before she was contacted and informed that Stephanie had been killed. Her car was parked in front of the subway and was visible on the news broadcast Kelly was watching. And we've talked many times, Morf, about finding out that your son or daughter has been killed. It has to be one of the most devastating things that anyone can go through, but I'm really feeling for Kelly here because
32:46 Speaker 01 she is seeing it kind of, you know, splayed out on the news before she's even contacted by the authorities.
32:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, it doesn't seem like this is a case where the news report said the victims' names before their family was contacted, but she probably put two and two together that, hey, that's my daughter's car in front of the subway that her boyfriend works at and immediately probably knew what had happened and that the worst thing possible could have happened.
33:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, because she's coupling now with the fact that her daughter didn't come home or wasn't there in the morning, you know, when she woke up.
33:27 Speaker 02 One of the first things police did was turn to the surveillance cameras around the store to see what, if anything, they recorded. Unfortunately, the one security camera at the location somehow didn't capture anything useful. For some reason, authorities searched a roof across the street from the subway as well as a trash can behind the store, possibly looking for the murder weapon. The reason for searching the roof across the street might be one of those things investigators are holding back from the public. What, if anything, was found remains a mystery. Police didn't share a lot with the public, other than they were searching for a white man in his late teens or early twenties. He was wearing a red jacket and flared pants, and he was seen in the area of the subway on
34:09 Speaker 02 the night of the murders. Jefferson County Sheriff's spokesman Steve Davis told the Denver Post, "It's unclear whether a robbery took place. Early on, police didn't disclose what amount, if any, was taken from the register, but in many later articles, it stated that the money inside the cash register remained untouched. This doesn't exactly rule out a robbery. The suspect could have been focused on the safe, looking for a large amount of cash, and could have gotten frustrated that Nick and Stephanie didn't have the key or the combination to it."
34:40 Speaker 01 And this is a strange one for me more right off the bat. It's got to be either a case where, like you said, the suspect got frustrated because, you know, they couldn't get into the safe. And then somehow, maybe in a panic, left after the murders without even taking the money from the register, right? Essentially left with nothing. Or these murders were targeted and they had nothing to do with robbery.
35:16 Speaker 02 Yeah, you would think even if this person had gone there with the intent of robbing the safe and getting the big score, when they couldn't get into the safe, you would think they want to take whatever cash they would have access to, just to get something out of it. After all, they've just murdered two people. Why would they want to leave empty handed? And I think maybe this is the frustrating part for police. They've got to figure out, did this really have anything to do with the robbery? Or, as you mentioned, were they targeted? Did they have a beef with one of the victims? I think the police had to consider all those possibilities.
35:53 Speaker 01 Two different witnesses described a potential suspect seen at or near the subway that night. Authorities released a composite sketch of each person's description. The two sketches are pretty similar to each other with some minor differences in the finer facial features, and they were both wearing some kind of hat. This person wasn't wearing a red jacket or flared pants as had been originally described. The person seen leaving the subway sometime that night has been described as a white man with light blonde hair. He was about five foot seven, weighing in around 150 to 170 pounds, and between the ages of
36:36 Speaker 01 16 and 20 years old. He was wearing blue jeans, tennis shoes, a black baseball hat, and either a black jacket with a red lining, or a red shirt.
36:47 Speaker 02 There were rumors that employees at that subway location were selling drugs out of the back door, which was supposed to be accessed only by employees, and that the murders had something to do with this drug dealing. Whether or not there's any truth to these rumors remains a mystery. Nick had only been working at that subway for about a month. It's notable that he was only 15 years old, and he was left to close the store by himself. You would think that an adult employee would have been with him. And that seems like a huge oversight to let someone under 18 be there to close, especially if they're the only employee working.
37:20 Speaker 01 Stephanie's mother Kelly sued the owner of that subway location, Joseph Hartman Jr., claiming that he was aware of the illegal drug sales going on to store and allowed it to happen, knowing that criminals were using the back door of the store, which was kept unlocked for that purpose. Since Stephanie wasn't an employee of the store, Kelly's lawsuit was dismissed. Hartman did receive a $19,000 fine from the Labor Department for violation of federal child labor laws because Nick, a minor, was working by himself. And, and you said it more, right? So strange that a 15-year-old would be closing up by himself.
38:04 Speaker 01 And obviously this fine was an indication that he shouldn't have been.
38:09 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, even if he's a really good employee, just at his age, you think you wouldn't want to leave him alone in a store to close up at night. You'd think there would be someone that's an adult there to supervise. I go back to when I worked, when I was 16, we worked without adults, but there was always two of us there in one of the stores I worked at. So we were never alone. It wouldn't be just one of us closing up. And I think I was 16, my coworkers were 16 or 17, and there would always be two of us. So we never had to worry about being on our own to close up at night.
38:48 Speaker 01 And the other thing that, you know, I was thinking was, this was a Sunday night, so Monday's a school day, and, you know, he's working by himself, but also till closing, pretty late. You know, let's say 10 o'clock. You're not going to get out of there at 10 o'clock if, if the store closes at 10 o'clock. So that doesn't seem right for a 15-year-old either.
39:15 Speaker 02 And that's actually, to me, it seems like a late time for a subway to close. A lot of things close early on Sunday nights, at least where I live. And in most of the places I've lived, you know, a lot of businesses are not open late on Sunday night. So for 10 o'clock Sunday night, that seems pretty late, you know, for this business to be closing down.
39:36 Speaker 01 That's because you live in Florida where the median age is 85.
39:41 Speaker 02 And well, that's true.
39:42 Speaker 01 There's no reason to stay open. A lot of places pass six because you know, not that many people are gonna be there.
39:50 Speaker 02 Well, even when I lived in New Jersey, I remember a lot of stuff closing pretty early on Sundays.
39:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're right. I mean, most places or a lot of places I should say do close earlier on Sunday. But we do know this subway was open until 10 o'clock.
40:05 Speaker 02 Ironically, Rachel Scott, who lost her life in the Columbine massacre, worked at that same subway until she was killed. Her back fence butted up against Stephanie's and Nick had once sketched her portrait. After Rachel's murder, her mother was given the sketch framed. Rachel's mom told the Denver Post, I always had concerns simply because the kids would lock up at night. She also said, I don't think Rachel ever felt unsafe. She loved working there. She also recalled that when Rachel worked a closing shift, she wasn't by herself. There was always a malemployee there.
40:40 Speaker 01 15 year old Nathan Grill, who had once worked at the subway, told UPI News. Everything was fine at 10 o'clock. Nick was helping his last customer. Nick was actually Nathan Grill's replacement because he quit about a month earlier. According to Nathan, he was at the restaurant from about 8:30 that evening until 10:00. And he said Stephanie must have gotten there sometime after he left because he didn't see her that night.
41:09 Speaker 02 There's one theory that the killer was someone who was angry that Nick and Stephanie were in love. They met in middle school and became even closer after the shooting at Columbine High, where they were both sophomores. Stephanie's mother Kelly told Denver 7 News. They were coming through it so good and they were so happy. We just really felt like that might be the last hard thing that we went through. Their bodies were discovered on Valentine's Day, which is part of where this theory that they were killed because they were in love may come into play. The murders likely happened though on February 13th before midnight, not on Valentine's Day.
41:44 Speaker 01 Today, that location closes at 9:30 PM. But back in 2000, the store was open until 10:00. One coworker explained that a robbery, even at the end of the night, would never make anyone rich. At that subway location, employees took large bills out of the register and placed them into the safe that only the manager had the key to. He estimated that an end of day robbery would result in a score of about $50 at most. Grill, who had worked at the shop for about eight months, estimated there would be closer to $200 at the end of the night, though by 10:15 just after closing, most of it would have been in the safe.
42:30 Speaker 02 Yeah. So you've got different accounts here. One person thinks that it might be $50. One person thinks it might be a couple hundred dollars, but can you imagine taking not one, but two lives for such little money? It's if that's the motive, it just, it seems like such a small value. Even back then, you know, 20, 25 years ago, almost this wasn't a giant score by any stretch of the imagination. And it makes you wonder why someone would risk going to prison for the rest of their life for such a small amount of money and, and take these two people's lives in cold blood.
43:09 Speaker 01 Well, first of all, I can't imagine taking a life for any amount of money. And I'm always still to this day, Morf, after we've been podcasting for seven, eight years, confounded by the thought process of many, especially when it comes to money as a motive for murder in these very small amounts. It just, it makes no sense to me whatsoever.
43:38 Speaker 02 And in this case, it looks like the money from the cash register wasn't taken at all. So that makes me think again, is that the real motive or is there some other kind of motive? Reports are kind of vague, but some state that the coworker who found the bodies said that she saw someone running from the store about 12:45 in the morning. If the store closed at 10 and the murders happened around that time, what would they have been doing in there for almost three hours? It's possible that someone was running away, but it wasn't the killer. Maybe someone else had entered the store and didn't want to be involved with police, even if they weren't the killer. If the rumors about drug sales from the store are true, could it have been someone looking to score some drugs, only to find two dead bodies freak out and then run?
44:21 Speaker 01 Nathan Grill told salon.com, "I don't think there's really a lot of drugs at the store, though he did admit that once in a while you see a couple of kids smoking pot there." According to that salon.com article, Grill was wearing a red jacket and flared pants, but he said, "I know I'm innocent. I'm not worried." Some people apparently suspect Grill could have been involved. If the murders were personally motivated or a robbery gone wrong, they feel as though Grill makes a great suspect. He knew Nick. He knew the protocols in the store since he had once worked there.
45:01 Speaker 01 He estimated the available money to be much higher than other employees estimated and felt that the surveillance system there was basically useless. On top of all that, he was wearing exactly the same outfit as the person investigators were looking for early on, and he was at the store at closing when he says everything was just fine. It's not clear if police looked at Grill and treated him as merely a witness or checked into him as a suspect.
45:33 Speaker 02 There's not a lot of information about or updates in this case for whatever reason. So there's no word on whether Grill or anyone else have officially been cleared. We also don't know if any evidence was left behind that could help lead to the killer. In 2017, Stephanie's mother, Kelly Griselle, told salon.com, "I thought that we would have the answers, like I say, within the first day or two." So 17 years, it's been a very long time. "I certainly never thought I would still be asking for help and for resolution to this." Kelly also told Fox 31 Denver, "I think people talk about closure. Certainly, I don't expect closure, but I do hope for justice. I know the case can still be solved."
46:16 Speaker 01 After 20 years had passed with no movement in the case, the reward for information was raised to $12,000. Investigators hope that the money and passage of time might encourage someone to talk. Elias Alberti, a Jefferson County Sheriff's Office homicide investigator, who has both composite sketches hanging on the wall above his desk, told Fox 31 Denver, 20 years is a long time. A lot of people's lives have changed. People's circumstances changed. We're hoping they're willing to share what they have kept secret for 20 years. And I think this is a thought that, you know,
47:00 Speaker 01 people have in a lot of unsolved cases where decades go by. You know, this idea morphed that people's lives change, their circumstances change. You maybe someone who found out or was told about what happened, was close to the killer. And then later on, that bond was severed for whatever reason. The thought is, okay, would they now possibly be willing to come forward? Because they don't have the same level of commitment that they had to that person. And I think that's, that's a very valid thought.
47:42 Speaker 01 But, you know, on the flip side, you know, what is the incentive for people to come forward? Yeah, there's a reward, but also you then have to explain why you knew about this or had this information for 20 years or more, and you never came forward.
48:05 Speaker 02 Yeah, I think everyone wants a case like this to be solved as soon as possible, especially the victim's loved ones. But if there's a positive thing about the length of time, time going by, case getting cold. Is that it does allow for people down the road, maybe for their circumstances to change and someone that had some information down the road, maybe they for some reason decided it's come time to come forward and tell what they know. And maybe that's because someone they were afraid of is no longer around and they feared for their safety all that time. Maybe now they don't. So I think there are some, some positive things that do come from the passage of time, despite everyone wanting quick answers. And I just
48:50 Speaker 02 want to say too, about the homicide investigator in this case, it doesn't seem like he's forgotten it. Like he packed this case away and you know, it's, it's collecting dust someplace. He has his composite sketches hanging on the wall, reminding him that this case is still unsolved. And I think that's probably a real positive thing for the families of, of these two, because they know that their, their loved ones aren't forgotten and the police are taking it seriously and think about it all the time.
49:20 Speaker 01 Yeah. Good point. The other thing that the passage of time does is bring in new technology, right? The technology gets better as the years go by. The, the problem always is, you know, whether or not the police have anything that they can use with this new technology. And a lot of times we don't know that because they don't share that for very obvious reasons.
49:47 Speaker 02 In February 2021, on the 21st anniversary of the murders, the reward for information was raised to $100,000. Jefferson County Sheriff Jeff Schrader told CBS, "With this significantly increased reward, people who haven't come forward with their information will be much more likely to do so now." We're continuing our diligent work to bring justice to Nicholas and Stephanie.
50:11 Speaker 01 Investigator Alberti has implied that there is information that has been withheld from the public to protect the integrity of the investigation. He told KDVR News, "There are some things in this case we don't talk about. We don't share and keys to the case that we don't let the general public know. The reason why is because we have had people try to admit to this before and we were able to use that information we haven't released to verify those people weren't telling the truth." Alberti told 9news.com, "More than one person has confessed to killing Nick and Stephanie, but because authorities held back certain information, these people haven't been able
50:56 Speaker 01 to answer questions correctly. We know based on those responses that they weren't involved." And this is the other thing that always gets to me. Why do you have so many people confessing to crimes that they didn't commit? I don't understand that.
51:13 Speaker 02 Yeah, I wonder if it's for attention or maybe for some harebrained attempt to collect reward money, which wouldn't make sense because if somehow you got charged and sent to prison for it, that reward's not going to do much good for you.
51:27 Speaker 01 And you're not going to get it anyway. They're not going to give it to you.
51:31 Speaker 02 So it is strange.
51:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, I just wonder how often mental health plays a big part in people coming forward and confessing to crimes they didn't commit. I don't, I don't know. I don't know what other reasons are there to do it?
51:50 Speaker 02 Nick and Stephanie were buried together at the same grave site. Stephanie's mom, Kelly, told Fox 31 Denver, "I think they wanted to be together, so we had one funeral and buried them together. They are forever at peace together. If you have any information about the murders of Nicholas Klinsman and Stephanie Hurt Griselle, you can contact the Metro Denver Crime Stoppers by calling 720-913-7867. You can also submit a tip on their website at metrodenvercrimestoppers.com anonimous-tips."
52:25 Speaker 02 You can remain anonymous, but those are the only two ways to submit your tip and be eligible for the reward of up to $100,000.
52:33 Speaker 01 And you know, as we wrap this episode up, in the second case that we're talking about, you know, $100,000 is a sizable reward. That is the type of money I think that could possibly entice someone to come forward with information. You know, so many times we're talking about 5,000, 10,000, not that that's not, you know, a good chunk of change, but is it worth the fallout that's going to come after someone discloses their information?
53:11 Speaker 01 Especially if they've kept it to themselves for 20 years or more, but 100,000, that might be worth it.
53:20 Speaker 02 Yeah, $100,000 is a lot of money and I can see people turning in to friends and coworkers, maybe that had nothing to do with it, but maybe were a little bit suspicious on the hopes that they could maybe collect on that money. You could see a lot of people motivated by money and that's a sizable reward.
53:40 Speaker 01 But obviously in both of these cases, you have, you know, some younger people killed, some people who really hadn't even started their lives yet more. You know, it's, it's always tragic, but I think there is some hope that both of these cases can be solved. We talked about in the first case, you know, they're, they're trying some genetic genealogy testing, using that technology. We've seen how valuable that can be. And in the second one, you know, investigators have said, there's, there's some things that we have that we haven't disclosed. Now, we don't know what that is.
54:26 Speaker 01 Is it evidence, physical evidence? Could it possibly be DNA? We don't know.
54:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, it seems like after all this much time has passed by that, you know, there's not going to be a piece of video surveillance that suddenly turns up or most likely not a witness that saw something that just remembered something. It seems like it's either going to take tips from somebody that has crucial information or that physical evidence, maybe that they have that they're not talking about publicly that links to somebody and, you know, maybe these, these crimes can one day be solved.
55:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, maybe they narrow down the person using genetic genealogy. Or maybe this person's DNA happens to wind up, you know, in a database because they get arrested or, you know, something along those lines. But we'll have to wait and see. That's it for our episode on the Littleton, Colorado mysteries. You know, with Crime Con taking place in Colorado, it would be amazing timing if one of these cold cases could finally be solved. Now, of course, one of the most well-known unsolved crimes out of Colorado is the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. We covered her murder over three episodes last year.
55:50 Speaker 01 2026 will be the 30 year anniversary of her death. Her case, as well as the ones we've talked about in this episode, may be worth talking about or sharing if you're at Crime Con. But if you love the show and haven't done so yet, you know, go out, leave us a rating, leave us a review. But also definitely keep telling your friends about the podcast. Word of mouth really means a lot.
56:18 Speaker 02 If you want to find us on social media, we're on every major platform. Just search for Criminology Podcast. You can also go to our website, criminologypodcast.com. And you can join our Facebook discussion group, Criminology Podcast Discussion and Fans.
56:33 Speaker 01 So that's it for another episode of Criminology. But Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then, for Mike.
56:43 Speaker 02 And Morph.
56:43 Speaker 01 We'll talk to you next week.
56:45 Speaker 02 Take care, everyone.
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