Pod Insights Criminology The Devil's Den Murders About this episode On Saturday July 26th, 2025, officers from the Arkansas State Police were notified that there had been a double homicide in the park. The bodies were identified as forty-three-year-old Clinton Brink and forty-one-year-old Cristen Brink. The two had been hiking with two of their daughters, who are seven and nine years old, at Devil's Den State Park. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss these horrific murders. The police had a description of the attacker as well as his vehicle and looked at all the video and photos they could find from that day. They arrested twenty-eight-year-old Andrew McGann on July 31st in Springdale, Arkansas. Do they have the right man and enough evidence to put him away? You can help support the show through Patreon. We'd love to connect with listeners on social media. We are available on the following platforms: Facebook - Facebook Discussion group - Instagram - Threads - X Formerly Twitter - Blue Sky - Twitch - Tik Tok Criminology is an Emash Digital production hosted by Mike Ferguson and Mike Morford.
Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised.
0:37 Speaker 01 Hello everyone and welcome to episode 371 of the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson.
0:43 Speaker 02 And this is Mike Morford.
0:45 Speaker 01 Mr. Morford, how you doing this week, buddy?
0:47 Speaker 02 I'm doing pretty good. How you doing?
0:49 Speaker 01 I'm doing great. My, uh, my oldest daughter is graduating from graduate school, actually later today. We're taping in the morning and so it's a, it's a cool thing, man. She's been in school for a long time and it's a big accomplishment.
1:08 Speaker 02 Now that time goes by, I, I, uh, just went to my daughter's first high school volleyball game yesterday and it was weird being in high school with my daughter there. So that time really goes by fast.
1:20 Speaker 01 It does. It does. So you gotta cherish it, no doubt about it. Let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Anita Erlinson and Sarah Brecken. So some great new support. We really appreciate it.
1:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, thank you so much for that support. It really helps us out. For anyone else that would like to, you can head over to patreon.com/criminology to get started.
1:43 Speaker 01 All right, we're diving right into this episode and this week we're discussing a case that many listeners may have seen recently in news headlines. We're talking about the case of the Devil's Den murders where two people were murdered at Devil's Den State Park in West Fork, Arkansas. News continues to break since this all happened so recently, but the good news is that the suspected killer in the case has been apprehended. While there still are some unanswered questions, there's a lot of information that we do know about.
2:18 Speaker 02 At around 2:30 in the afternoon on Saturday, July 26, 2025, officers from the Arkansas State Police were notified that there had been a double homicide in the park. The bodies were identified as 43-year-old Clinton Brink and 41-year-old Kristen Brink. The couple had been hiking with their two daughters, who were seven and nine years old, at Devil's Den State Park. The family was new to the state, having recently moved from South Dakota to Prairie Grove, Arkansas, and they decided to explore what the area had to offer. The park, being just 12 miles away, seemed like a great choice for a summer family outing. Sadly, their trip was cut short when they were attacked. Clinton and Kristen were stabbed to death, and it was
3:03 Speaker 02 an incredibly bloody scene. Their girls, luckily, were unharmed physically. When they were located by another hiker, they were still about half mile into the 2,500-acre park. The girls told the hiker what happened, and after getting to a safe spot with them, the hiker went back to find their parents. He ended up calling 911 to report the crime once they were able to get to an area with cellphone service.
3:26 Speaker 01 The Brink's two young daughters were able to tell police what happened and give them a basic description of the killer. Washington County Prosecutor Brandon Carter told CNN, "All the information that we're working off of started with two little girls. The witness, the most horrific thing that you could ever imagine. From the few details that have leaked out to the public, we know that the girls saw their father being stabbed in the chest. Then Kristen told the girls to run as far as they could. As they ran, they heard Kristen talking to the man, who neither of them recognized, and asked him why he was attacking them. Then
4:08 Speaker 01 their mother started screaming. The girls kept running until they couldn't hear the sound of their mother's screams." And more if this is just an absolutely horrific situation. You know, you have this family who really moved quite a ways.
4:27 Speaker 01 You know, South Dakota to Arkansas and that's a, that's a big jump. They're trying to figure out, you know, hey, what's around, what can we do? A state park seems like a great little family outing to take the kids on. And then it just turns into an absolute nightmare. And I can't help but think of not only what the, the parents went through, but what these two little girls went through. You know, actually seeing your dad being stabbed in the chest and then hearing your mother screaming while you're running away because that's what your dad told you to do. I mean, it breaks your heart.
5:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's very sad and horrific, the details of what they must have witnessed. And it's, you know, a shame because this family was just out minding their own business, having fun in a place that they thought would be fun and a good time for their family. And then to find themselves being attacked and having to have their, their little girls run off. Must be a horrifying way to die, to know what's happening and to know that what's going to happen to my daughters. Cause I'm sure that was probably the last thing that went through their minds.
5:44 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, like most parents in any situation, it seems like, you know, they were looking out for their kids first and foremost. You know, how, how do we get them away from the situation, knowing that it may not end up good for us?
6:01 Speaker 02 I'm sure that day when they went out, maybe the biggest worry they may have had is, did we forget anything? You know, are we going to encounter snakes, something like that, nothing like this. So, you know, probably something they never would have imagined when they went out there that day.
6:19 Speaker 01 Right. Do we have enough cold drinks in the cooler? You know, that's, that's probably one of the biggest worries they had.
6:27 Speaker 02 There were other people hiking and camping in the park that day, but no one witnessed the murders. Once authorities had been alerted, visitors began to notice that something was wrong. Even then, a double homicide was the last thing they thought had happened. Bobby Davis, who was at Devil's Den on July 26th, told Five News Online.com, "It was very obvious that something was going on, and we didn't know what. I thought maybe somebody had an accident on a trail, maybe they fell or something like that." Another camper in the area, Christine Davis, told the news outlet, "The truth came as a shock," saying, "You feel guilty, really, for being here."
7:07 Speaker 01 And Morv, I can see this happening in a lot of different situations. I mean, here, we're out at a state park, you hear someone scream. I mean, what is the first thing that is going to go through your mind? I doubt for most people, it's that they're being attacked, being stabbed. Now, you think, oh, they've turned an ankle, they hurt themselves somehow, and they're screaming out in pain. Then when you find out what really happened, I think, just like what Christine said, there's, there's going to be some guilt there.
7:42 Speaker 02 Yeah, that thought of knowing that you were in the same area hiking, and you weren't able to do anything to help them, probably would cause some guilt. And I think also the surroundings, the habitat, the trees, the growth, probably would have made it harder to see anything and hear anything. So, you know, it might have been a case where this attacker felt he had them in an isolated spot where nobody else would be able to see or help.
8:11 Speaker 01 The suspect was described as a white male with a medium build, who was wearing sunglasses and a black baseball cap. So, no eye color was given. He was wearing dark pants, fingerless gloves, and a long-sleeved shirt with the sleeves rolled up. It was also noted that he had a backpack with him. He probably blended right in with regular hikers and campers in the park, which has multiple hiking trails and campsites.
8:40 Speaker 01 The suspect was spotted driving out of the park and getting on state highway I-70 in a four-door black sedan that investigators believed was a Mazda that had its license plate covered and other identifying information like the make and model by some kind of tape. This was later revised to be a Kia Stinger when another witness came forward to say that they saw the suspect as he left the trail. He still had what looked like blood on his face when he got into the Kia. Investigators asked for cellphone pictures and videos as well as any footage from GoPros. There are no surveillance cameras anywhere in Devil's Den State Park.
9:25 Speaker 01 There's also no cellphone service in much of the park. Surveillance footage from a home near the park did capture the small black car heading away from the area, but it didn't clearly show who was driving.
9:39 Speaker 02 People being in the area, not necessarily seeing anything. I think the police might have still been interested in these GoPros and things like that because a lot of times those people out there are using those things. So maybe the police thought they captured something even without knowing it. And I think they wanted to review the footage that people had out there because it might reveal some clue that that person missed, but their recording equipment may have caught it.
10:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, I don't think they were thinking that they were going to, you know, capture the, the attack or the murder or anything like that, but could possibly someone have captured the killer while they were walking? And you want to get as many faces on camera as you can.
10:29 Speaker 02 Despite the murder investigation ongoing and the killer being uncaught, people were still let into the park after the murders. Sydney Turk, a visitor from Texas, recalled arriving about an hour after the Arkansas State Police were notified of the double homicide. The heavy law enforcement presence made her a little nervous, so she tried to figure out what was going on. She told CNN, "We asked three different park rangers if we were safe and if we needed to be worried about anything. And two of them not only told us we were safe, but directed us to different trails to continue hiking." All Sydney was able to get from officers was that an area of the park was an active site and that there was an emergency they were taking care of. But she had no idea a
11:13 Speaker 02 murder suspect could have been roaming the trails. She said of the situation, "It's just crazy. They let us continue hiking even though they hadn't found the guy yet. I think they should have told us that there was a dangerous situation and that we should leave the park." Authorities released a new photo of the suspect, taken from behind, showing a man wearing a hat, a black long-sleeved shirt, and a backpack. Investigators have stated that the photo was taken by a witness who was standing behind the suspect. He actually stood out so much that the witness felt compelled to take the photo.
11:47 Speaker 01 And I think I'm right there with Sydney. I would be a little upset to find out later that I was, you know, allowed to hike in this area where, you know, possibly a murder suspect was still there. I get it, the police can't come out and say everything all the time. But maybe a little heads up, a little, a little warning, give people a little bit of information so that they can make an informed decision, right, about whether they want to continue the hike or get back in their car and go home, which is what I would do, right, if I had that information.
12:31 Speaker 02 And I'm thinking the police probably didn't want to cause a panic and have people running crazy through the, through the woods and trying to get out to their cars and get out of there. But at the same time, you know, this guy hasn't been caught. How do they know he's not going to attack someone else? That could lead to more violence, more deaths. And, you know, I think those people have a right to be upset that they weren't informed of that.
12:56 Speaker 01 According to CBS News, a statement from family members of the Brink's noted that they died heroes protecting their little girls. This led many to believe that the suspect was trying to abduct one or both of the girls. And killed Clinton and Kristen simply because they were in the way. However, investigators have stated that while a motive is unknown, they don't think this was an attempted abduction of either of the children. Investigators noted that Clinton was the first person to be attacked and determined that Kristen was killed when she tried to help her husband. As Clinton struggled with their attacker, Kristen rushed their children toward the car.
13:39 Speaker 01 Major Stacy Rhodes, commander of the Arkansas State Police Criminal Investigation Division, told CBS, "The mother did not return all the way to the car with the kids. We believe that the mother took them to safety and then returned to help her husband."
13:56 Speaker 02 According to CBS News, authorities revealed that whoever was responsible had likely sustained an injury while attacking the couple. The murder weapon has only been described as a knife. No further information has been given. The suspect was at large for four very long and terrifying days. Investigators were overwhelmed with tips from across the United States. Campers and locals were on edge, worried that a dangerous killer might still be in the area. Thankfully, it didn't take long for an arrest to be made.
14:26 Speaker 01 Twenty-eight-year-old Andrew McGann was arrested just before 5:00 PM on July 31st at Lupita's Beauty Salon and Barbershop in Springdale, Arkansas, about 30 miles north of Devil's Den State Park. According to Adriana Ruiz, who was working at the salon that day, McGann refused to sign in on the waitlist at the front desk. The barber had been working to cut his hair for about five minutes. When authorities arrived to question McGann, he had cuts on his hands. His black Kia Stinger was parked outside. He agreed to let investigators look inside, and they spotted what looked like blood.
15:09 Speaker 01 He was handcuffed and walked out of the salon without incident, despite being mid haircut. The Kia was transported to the Arkansas State Police Troop L Headquarters in Lowell for further analysis immediately after his arrest. The salon closed for the day. McGann's hair wasn't even swept up off the floor in case investigators determined they needed it for any kind of analysis.
15:36 Speaker 01 No one in the community wanted to see the Devil's Den Killer go free, not even on the technicality that his hair wasn't collected. So when he's arrested, Morph, you know, he has cuts on his hands. They find what appears to be blood in his vehicle. My thought about this attack is that, first of all, it's close up, right? Anytime you're using a knife, it's a very close encounter. How could that person, the attacker, not walk away from something like that with at least some blood on them, probably covered in blood?
16:20 Speaker 01 And also, a lot of times, these frenzied attacks with a knife result in the perpetrator being cut themselves, right? When you're stabbing with a knife, a lot of times, people's hands slip down the knife. They get cut themselves or in the struggle. So that doesn't surprise me at all.
16:46 Speaker 02 Yeah, we don't know the severity of the cuts on his hands, but you know, he's got him and he's driving the same kind of car that they're looking for. He's reasonably close to this area. You know, I'm curious, I don't really know how they stumbled upon him in that hair salon, whether it was a tip or just checking out cars or just happened to spot his car. But you know, it's a good thing that they did find him there, pick him up, take him out without him doing anything else to anyone. So who is Andrew McGann and what's known about him? Unfortunately, there's not a ton of information out there on him yet, but nothing that we know points to any kind of motive.
17:28 Speaker 02 In 2015, McGann graduated from Fenwick High School, a private Catholic prep school in Oak Park, Illinois. While in high school, he played football, rugby and baseball. Four years after graduation, he moved with his parents to Bixby, about four and a half hours away from Oak Park. He managed to stay out of trouble with the law because as far as anyone could see to this point, McGann has no criminal record and he passed a strict background test when he obtained a teaching credential.
17:58 Speaker 01 Since McCann was arrested in the middle of a haircut, it might seem that he was trying to change his appearance so he could stay on the run without being recognized. But Major Rhodes explained to ABC News that you chalk that up to the fact that school starts next week. McCann had recently been hired at Springdale Public Schools and was set to start work when the upcoming school year began. He had asked the barber to keep most of his hair long, enough to cover his face. So it does seem he wanted to perhaps not be identified by possible witnesses. There was no hair in the composite sketch and no hair mentioned in the description released to the public. And in the photo of him from the back,
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20:18 Speaker 02 McGann holds an active teaching license in Texas, Arkansas, and Oklahoma. He seemed to kind of bounce around from place to place, staying just long enough to get into trouble and leaving before he could face any real consequences. He graduated from Oklahoma State University Tulsa with a Bachelor's of Science in Elementary Education in 2022. During the 2022 to 2023 school year, McGann taught 4th grade at Donald Elementary School in Flower Mountain, Texas. According to Sierra Markham, who some was a student in McGann's class there, she told CBS that McGann was pretty cold and pretty disinterested in his students. She also mentioned that he was very touchy with the girls in his class and was acting
21:03 Speaker 02 inappropriately with them, having them on his lap and making comments to them and keeping them back from recess for what another parent had explained he called "special lunches." She found out all this when her son came home crying and told her that he heard McGann tell a girl, "If you were older, I would love to marry you."
21:22 Speaker 01 And I think everybody probably just cringed at that statement. I mean, we're talking about a guy who's teaching 4th graders, telling a girl, "If you were older, I would love to marry you." A 4th grader. I don't know what is going on with some of these individuals. Does it make it worse somehow that this guy was a teacher? And to me, it does. I guess it's because my wife is a teacher, my dad, my stepmom, they were teachers. So I've grown up my whole life around teachers.
22:05 Speaker 01 And I always held teachers in such high regard, looking at them as kind of, you know, role models and shapers of young kids. We put a lot of trust in teachers. You think, you know, you're sending your kids to school. And when you find out that a teacher does things like this, I don't know, it just hits hard.
22:32 Speaker 02 Yeah, these are people that are put in place to take care of your most precious commodity, your children. And as we mentioned, he did pass a background check, but to hear these disturbing accounts, inappropriate things he's doing, letting little girls sit on his lap, telling them he would marry them, having special lunches with them, it's a lot of red flags popping up and, you know, it tells you there's something going on here that's, that's not normal.
23:02 Speaker 01 Lindsey Camp Poljak, another parent with a son in McCann's class in Flower Mound, told NBC News that her son came home one day and told her that his teacher plays tag at recess every day with the girls and only gave candy and other special gifts to the girls in his class and not to the boys. Kyle Swanson, whose son was in McCann's fourth grade class in Texas, told the AP News, McCann was just off putting and that he wouldn't really look at or speak to him. He called his first time meeting McCann a strange interaction. According to CBS News,
23:43 Speaker 01 McCann was placed on administrative leave in the spring of 2023 due to complaints of poor classroom management and poor professional judgment.
23:55 Speaker 02 McCann resigned, leaving his class with a substitute teacher for the rest of the year, and the internal investigation into his conduct was closed. One school administrator in an email sent out to parents wrote, "While our investigation did not find any evidence of inappropriate behavior with a student, we did find his classroom management and professional judgment to be below our district's expectations." After resigning in Texas, he moved out of state and on to Oklahoma. During the 2023 to 2024 school year, he was a fifth grade teacher at Spring Creek Elementary in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. From the summer of 2024 until May of this year, McCann was a fifth
24:36 Speaker 02 grade teacher at Spring Creek Elementary School in Oklahoma City. He resigned from the Sand Springs Public School District in Oklahoma in May before moving to Arkansas.
24:46 Speaker 01 Because there were never any charges against him, McGann's record was clean. When he went on to apply at other districts, everything looked fine with his background check and his teaching certificate. Broken Arrow Public Schools spokesperson Tara Thompson told the AP News, "There were no disciplinary actions taken against him during his time at Broken Arrow Public Schools, and nothing in his background or reference checks gave cause for concern." During the interview process, news of McGann's activities around children as a teacher, as well as the double murder he's accused of, understandably angered parents.
25:28 Speaker 01 Lindsay Poljak, after seeing news of his arrest, told NBC News, "He had no business being around our children." And Sierra Markham told CBS News, "We were literally dropping our kids off to a monster. The fact that he was allowed to continue teaching is what blows my mind." And I can see why parents would be outraged after they find all of this stuff out. I think the problem is that while a lot of suspicion surrounded him, seemingly at every teaching stop he had, there was no disciplinary action really taken against him, right? There was nothing on his record.
26:13 Speaker 01 And I don't know that that's all that out of the ordinary, because we've seen it in other lines of work as well. You know, how many cases have we done involving nurses who turn out to be killers? And you find out that there was all this suspicion surrounding them at this hospital and then this next hospital, but... They kind of either left on their own or they were pushed out, but those suspicions didn't follow them onto their next job because there was really nothing on their record. And I think it's something similar here that that we're looking at with McCann. And that's a scary thing.
26:57 Speaker 02 Yeah, the one thing that jumps out to me is the way he's moving around as a teacher so much. I know teachers might move from school to school for a better opportunity, or maybe something, you know, they want to teach a different kind of class, whatever it is, and there's reasons to move. But, you know, to me, it just seems odd that he would move over and over and over again, one job to the next. And if you're the next place that's hiring him, you know, I would wonder, is that a concern for you? Did they ask him, why are you moving from school to school to school? And are they reaching out to these previous places he's teach and asking, you know, for a reference, you know, why did he leave there? And what kind of teacher was he? So, you know, I'm wondering if that
27:40 Speaker 02 was done here because, you know, we talked about the red flags or disturbing things that he had said and done.
27:47 Speaker 01 The problem with background checks, and this may vary state by state, but, you know, when I was working, when I was managing people, hiring people, I would get called a lot for background checks. And at least where I live, there were certain things that you could say and certain things you couldn't say. So they may have done background checks at every stop. But when called, maybe they were only given that, you know, yes, he did work here from this time to this time. Because in a lot of places, that's really about all
28:27 Speaker 01 you're able to say. You can't go into, well, we had some suspicions and there's legally some things you're not supposed to say.
28:36 Speaker 02 And I just want to give the kids credit in this case, too, because they spoke up, they noticed something was wrong, it didn't sit right with them. And a lot of times, you know, sometimes my, my son.
28:50 Speaker 02 He's younger. He doesn't pay attention to me sometimes, I think. And I'm like, are you even listening to me? But then he'll come home and tell me something here at school. So it shows that he's paying attention. And I think these kids really absorb a lot of things. And when they don't feel they're right, or when it's bothering them, they'll tell their parents. And, you know, if it wasn't for them, how much would we even know that this guy had done?
29:13 Speaker 01 Well, I tell you, as we were talking through that, it really reminded me, I think it was the, the second season of Mindhunter, you know, when they were investigating that principal for tickling little kids' feet, or so I forget the exact thing. But he gave off some real creepy vibes. And, and I was reminded of that.
29:39 Speaker 02 As we mentioned early on, there are still many unanswered questions in this case, among them being whether the Brink family was targeted, or whether they were random victims. Arkansas State Police Director Mike Hager told NBC News, there's no reason to believe that there was any known association between the suspect and the victims. Authorities are now pointing to the likelihood that the attack was random. Those who knew the family agree, because there was no reason anyone who knew them would want them dead. Danica Harrell, a friend of the family, told KOCO News, they're such sweet people, and they're so genuine. I'm really struggling to understand why or how this could happen to such sweet people.
30:21 Speaker 01 And that thought more of that, you know, an attack is either completely random, or the family was targeted. I don't know which one is scarier. There's a part of me that thinks the, the random aspect of an attack like this is scary, that you can just be, you know, at the state park with your family, you're not doing anything wrong. You're not putting yourself in what should be a dangerous situation. And, I mean, you just happen to, to run into someone who's looking to
31:03 Speaker 01 Do harm. That's a scary thought.
31:06 Speaker 02 And in overwhelming majority of cases, people that die by violence are usually killed by someone they know. It's not a stranger. So, you know, the fact there's no connection here, it just makes it that rare case where it is seemingly someone they didn't know and just didn't have any connection to.
31:27 Speaker 01 Although the victims may have been random, it appears that the attack itself may have been premeditated. And after the attack, McGann did a sloppy job trying to cover his tracks. Arkansas State Police Director Colonel Mike Hagar told ABC News, "The information that the victims' daughters were able to provide to start us down this path, to be able to make this arrest, it all started with those two little girls." As far as getting any answers to the question of why McGann committed the murders, Major Rhodes told KOCO, "We're not going to talk about his motive right now." And Washington County Prosecutor Brandon Carter
32:09 Speaker 01 told Five News Online, "Just because an arrest has been made, doesn't mean the investigation is over." And that last statement definitely makes a lot of sense. I mean, yes, an arrest has been made. Some information has been made public, but there's still a lot of speculation. And by no means is the investigation over. I mean, they got a lot of work to do. They have to put a case together. They have to, you know, ultimately get a conviction. They have to prove that this guy actually committed the murders.
32:45 Speaker 02 And all that stuff to build a strong case takes time. And there may be other things that they're still looking for. Maybe they want to, you know, verify some, some different. Time elements or find some evidence that they are missing that they hope will maybe strengthen their case. So it makes sense that they're still, you know, despite the arrest, they're still looking for clues to build this case and that might take a little bit of time. So to this point, police aren't sharing a lot of details, which has led to lots of questions. Even if this was a random attack, why that day? There was just one week until McGann started his new job. Was he just blowing off steam? Why Devil's Den? And why were the Brink's attacked?
33:28 Speaker 02 At least one other couple has claimed to have crossed paths with McGann in the park, and that he kind of stared them down and gave off a very bad vibe. It's not clear from their account whether they encountered him before or after the murders, but it must be terrifying to know that he could have been deciding whether they were worth attacking when he was glaring at them. One of the people who passed him in the park that day, got a good enough look at him to notice that his eyes were light blue, his hair was blonde, and that his backpack was very distinctive. Other people who saw him in the park noticed that there was blood around him, but they couldn't tell whether or not he was injured. Some people were able to walk right past McGann on that fateful day without being harmed, but Clinton and Kristen Brink lost their lives.
34:11 Speaker 01 And this goes back to my thought, you know, this close up attack with a knife. I don't know how this guy could have walked away if he was the killer without being covered in some capacity with blood. Now, he was wearing a lot of black, which may have helped to hide that fact somewhat. But I mean, you can hear from people who encountered him, some people saw it.
34:39 Speaker 02 That's gotta be pretty scary to know that you walked right by this guy close enough that you could see blood or give a good description later on. And think about, hey, that could have been me if this guy had decided I was next, you know? Would you have any chance to really defend yourself in that situation? So I think people that encountered him that day are probably very thankful that they weren't attacked.
35:02 Speaker 01 There's been a lot of online speculation on forums like Reddit and web sleuths. People asking the question, was this really McCann's first serious crime? Did he really jump from being a little too hands on with young female students? Possibly even grooming them right to the murders of two complete strangers? We know he has lived in multiple states and these online sleuths have been digging for other unsolved cases with similar MO, especially crimes in camping areas and on hiking trails. Perhaps investigators are doing the same. For many people, it's just hard to believe that someone capable of something like this
35:48 Speaker 01 really has no criminal record and hasn't done anything like this in the past. And you know, for me, those are two very different things. Having no criminal record doesn't mean that the person hasn't done it in the past. It just means they weren't caught. But this question around whether, you know, this individual has done something similar in the past, you know, that always comes up for me in cases. Because normally what we're able to talk about is what is known, right? What investigators or reporters or whoever finds out and can verify.
36:33 Speaker 01 But what about all the unknown? I mean, most killers don't come out and say, well, you missed this one. Or, hey, I don't know why, but you don't know anything about this murder I committed. So I normally tend to lean towards the thought that a lot of killers that we talk about probably have more to their crimes than than we actually know about. And that could be the, the exact same here with, with this guy. If he ends up being found guilty.
37:12 Speaker 02 And I don't blame all these online sleuths for trying to look at other crimes that were, you know, maybe unsolved in the areas he's been in because, you know, as you were just talking about, maybe he has other unknown victims, maybe not even murder victims, but maybe he, you know, attacked someone, they survived, uh, and they thought it was a robbery gone wrong, or maybe he sexually assaulted someone on a trail someplace. It could be a number of different things. So, you know, these online sleuths are really digging and I, I hope police are going to do the same and just double check the areas he's been in to see if there's any crimes that might be connected to him.
37:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, I'm sure they are. The, the difference between the, the police and the online sleuths is that what the police are doing is a little harder to figure out, right? They don't always come out and tell you exactly what they're looking at or what they've found. Online sleuths are a lot easier to, to figure out. They're posting. So you can go check that out.
38:14 Speaker 02 Some people were surprised that McGann would be arrested for a shocking crime like this. Patrick Bailey, who went to high school with McGann and was on the rugby team with him, told krk.com, by no means was there ever an indication he'd be capable of something like this. According to the Washington Post, on his application to the Springdale School District, McGann wrote, "I like to role model making healthy choices for my students." You have to wonder, is this a blatant lie? Or is his personality drastically changed since his time in Oklahoma?
38:47 Speaker 01 And I think that's a really good question right there. You know, is this a person who has kind of had these thoughts and possibly even done some similar crimes over time? Or did something change in his life to cause him to, you know, want to kill?
39:11 Speaker 02 And how disturbing is it that, you know, he mentioned being a role model for students? How disturbing is it if he went into that profession? So he could be around children to target them that I mean, that's frightening and terrifying. And the fact he passed a background check, you know, I just, it's just very frightening.
39:32 Speaker 01 Yeah, but my other thought is, you know, this statement that he made on his application, you know, people put down what they think their audience wants to hear. You know, what's going to get me this job? It may not even be what they really believe. I mean, that happens with people who aren't killers, but killers especially seem to have, I should say, many of them have the ability to kind of snow people, right? Make them think that they're someone different than who they really are.
40:11 Speaker 01 I mean, you look at serial killers, they can't come out and let people know what they're all about. They have to act like they're the perfect neighbor, the, the perfect teacher, the perfect nurse. And it's only later that things come out about who they really are. And I think that's what leads to a lot of people saying after the fact, well, I can't believe that this person would do what they've been accused of doing. They were such a great neighbor. They would help me all the time, or this person was a great teacher, or whatever it is. It's because that's what they wanted you to believe.
40:53 Speaker 02 It's interesting when you see that, you hear that, you know, someone never saw it. There was no sign of it. But then there are other cases where somebody will say, oh yeah, I knew there was something up with that guy. That guy was so creepy, or this was very disturbing. So it's, it's interesting when you have this, this different accounts and different cases where people either recognize something in one case and, and nothing at all in another case.
41:20 Speaker 01 Well, let's face it. Some people are better hiding it than others. As of the time of this recording, Andrew James McGann has been charged with two counts of capital murder and is being held without bond at the Washington County Detention Center. McGann's DNA matched blood found at the scene. And according to ABC News, Arkansas State Police Director Colonel Mike Hagar said that when investigators searched McGann's home, they found evidence consistent with his being involved in this particular crime. Everything that was found in his home was not specified, but investigators did say that they found some items of clothing
42:04 Speaker 01 that matched what the suspect was wearing in that photo taken from someone standing behind him. And again, here, more if you have what we see a lot of times, investigators have to be careful with the information that they give out. But this one statement, they found evidence consistent with him being involved in this particular crime. Okay, it's not specific, but it sounds like they're pretty confident. And then obviously, when you think about his DNA matching, blood found at the scene of the crime, that's going to be really hard to get out from under to explain that I'm not to kill him.
42:49 Speaker 02 Yeah, if there's physical evidence in the home that links back, whether it's the murder weapon or blood on his clothes from the victims, you know, maybe if something of theirs that he took with him, any number of things that could tie him there. And it sounds like police are pretty confident what they found does tie him to those murders.
43:11 Speaker 01 And eventually, you know, my thought is we will find out what that is. We just don't know right now because this case is still unfolding.
43:21 Speaker 02 Exactly what McGann has said to police hasn't been released, but it's been stated that he basically admitted to the murders. When he was first questioned, and then when he was arrested, and again when he was transported to the jail, McGann was completely cooperative. He didn't resist at all and seemed to be extremely calm. We still don't know how McGann was injured. He could have cut himself during the attack, but at a press conference, a reporter asked if the injuries could have resulted from a loving parent trying to do whatever they could to protect their loved ones. And Colonel Hager said, absolutely, I would say you're correct. Washington County Prosecutor Brandon Carter backed that up, saying, "They absolutely protected those girls to their fullest extent, to the point that it cost them their lives."
44:06 Speaker 02 McGann's mugshots don't show any kind of serious facial injury. He does appear to have a few bruises and maybe a scratch or two, but whatever injury caused him to leave a trail of blood at the scene, doesn't appear to be visible.
44:18 Speaker 01 And going back to the Brink's more, I mean, they have to be viewed as heroes, right? They fought off their killer long enough to allow their daughters to escape. And perhaps, if it was one of the Brink's who indeed injured McGann, they may have helped solve their own murders and guarantee that there was enough evidence for an arrest and prosecution. Though they fought back valiantly, they were at a disadvantage. The killer was armed and likely attacked with no warning, and with no cellphone service in much of the park, there was no way for either of the Brink's or their children to call for help. They
45:01 Speaker 01 were also at a disadvantage due to the layout of the trail they were on. There would be no easy way to run away. According to NBC News, the area is described as one where the terrain is rugged and vegetation is thick. And they made it half a mile into the park. It would have taken time to get to a place where help could even be called, and then even more time for help to make it there. Time that the Brink's didn't have.
45:32 Speaker 02 Since this tragic double murder, there have been a few articles released in which hikers shared safety tips, hoping that people wouldn't be discouraged from enjoying the outdoors, but most of what was recommended may not have prevented these murders. Some of the tips included things like, "Don't hike alone," and "Don't hike at night." Overwhelmingly, trails and wildlife areas like the ones the Brink family was attacked on are beautiful and safe spaces to spend time in, and it's much more likely that you may twist an ankle or have a run in with a wild animal than to come across a dangerous killer. But cases like this prove, you never really know what can happen out there.
46:10 Speaker 01 McGann's next court appearance and arraignment is currently scheduled for August 25th. This date is likely to change, and it may be affected if there's a plea. If McGann did confess to killing Kristen and Clinton Brink, he could try to take a plea deal so that he can be sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole instead of facing the death penalty, which is on the table in the state of Arkansas. There could also always be some kind of not guilty by reason of insanity defense coming as well. However, in response to a question about this at a press conference, it was stated that it's too early to predict whether he will ever plead guilty. As of now, the prosecutor's
46:55 Speaker 01 office plans to pursue the death penalty in this case. Washington County Prosecutor Brandon Carter told Five News Online, "The defendant in this case is innocent until he's proven guilty, but I am confident that we have the right defendant in this case and that the public need not worry going forward." And finally, a flag has been placed on McGann's teaching certificate to boot.
47:23 Speaker 01 Well, I would sure as hell hope so, you know, at the very least. I mean, this guy is thought to be have killed two people. And, you know, we already know what's come out about him as far as being suspicious and what he did with some of his students. At the very least, there's, there needs to be a red flag on this guy when it comes to teaching. Although I don't think he's ever going to be in a position to even apply for a teaching position ever again. But who knows, things haven't been decided yet.
47:59 Speaker 02 As the prosecutor said, he's innocent until proven guilty. But if by some miracle, he's not found guilty and he goes back out on the streets. I think just everything that's come to light regarding the, the strange behaviors around the kids. I don't think, like you said, I don't think there's ever any chance he's ever going to be teaching kids again. And that's, that's a good thing.
48:21 Speaker 01 And, you know, for me, the fact that the prosecutor's office has come out and said that they plan to pursue the death penalty. In this case, that doesn't surprise me at all. It might be the very thing that would cause McGahn to plead guilty. You know, a lot of times prosecutors will offer to take the death penalty off the table. If they can get a guilty plea and a lot of people take that, you know, depending on the wealth of evidence against him. And I think a lot of people look at it as there's no way I'm getting out of this thing. They've got too much against me.
49:04 Speaker 01 I don't want to be put to death, so I'm going to plead guilty and take life without parole.
49:10 Speaker 02 Yeah, it seems like if there's, you know, we know there's people that are on both sides of the death penalty issue. It's a, it's a big thing of debate, but if there is a case that warrants the death penalty, this is certainly one of them. To murder two parents in front of their, their children and have to have those little girls run for their lives. And, and be scarred for the rest of their lives. It's just unthinkable and this is an especially heinous double murder. So I could see why they want to go after him with the death penalty here. We have to turn our attention to the survivors in this case, the Brink's two daughters.
49:51 Speaker 02 Colonel Hager told CNN, they have very, very strong family support in place. And he added, I have no doubt that those girls are going to be well taken care of. A GoFundMe that will benefit the Brink girls and pay for their parents' funerals stated that Clinton Kristen were loving parents to their three precious daughters, devoted to one another, devoted to their girls, and devoted to God. Due to the overwhelming amount of public support, the goal amount continues to rise. And as of the time of this recording was over $80,000.
50:23 Speaker 01 Clinton was a milk delivery driver for Highland Dairy. And Kristen was an emergency room nurse. Danica Harrell, a friend of the Brink's from when they lived in Miles, Montana, starting around 2018, said of the couple to the AP News, they were selfless and unconditional. With their love and support for their friends, they often played volleyball in the park and would invite anyone to join them. They touched many lives. There are accounts from patients who remember Kristen and were heartbroken to recognize their wonderful nurse from the emergency room as one of the victims on the news.
51:02 Speaker 02 The fact that the Brink family had recently relocated for Clinton's work and McGann had also recently relocated for work and they ended up in the same area at the same time is apparently just an awful twist of fate. All indications are they didn't know each other. They had no connection and so many things had to line up for them to both be in that park that day. If there had never been an investigation into McGann's behavior in Texas, he might not have been in Arkansas by 2025. If Clinton had been transferred for work, the Brink family may never have been in Arkansas. And if either of them had gone on a different day or picked a different trail, they might not have ever crossed paths, even though they were in the park at the same time.
51:45 Speaker 02 At the time of this episode, all trails at Devil's Den State Park were still closed until further notice.
51:52 Speaker 01 So more of as, as we wrap this one up, you know, we don't have the finality that we do in a lot of our cases because this is all very recent. You know, things are still happening. I mean, McGann hasn't even been arraigned yet. But it does seem from the little amount of information that we have that the authorities believe they have a pretty strong case against him. They feel confident. That's what I'm getting. Now, we still have to wait and see how everything plays out. You know, will there be a full blown
52:33 Speaker 01 trial? Will he plead not guilty? And this thing will have to be, you know, kind of a all out trial in court? Or will it kind of go the route I was talking about earlier where McGann looks at everything and says, you know what? I'm not beating this. I'd rather get out from under the death penalty. So I'll plead guilty and just take life in prison with no possibility of parole. Now that would save the state a lot of money as far as not having to go through this lengthy trial. The other thing it does is it saves the family from having to attend
53:18 Speaker 01 court every day, hear details that are really tough to take in and possibly the two girls from having to take the stand. I don't, I don't know if that would have to happen. But the one thing that, you know, I hope is that however it plays out, the details or more details come out about motive. Cause right now we have no idea, right? Why he was out there? Why did he pick the Brink's family to target? If he was the killer, what was going on in his life?
53:59 Speaker 01 These are all things that hopefully will come out because it's what we're missing right now.
54:06 Speaker 02 Yeah. And whether it's at the trial or if he takes a plea deal, maybe one of the conditions is he has to give up all the information why he did it, how he found them. Did he just think that he was going to attack the next couple that he saw, the next people on the trail? And it just happened to be this family. It would be good to just have some answers to help it make sense. And I hope one way or the other, whether it's a plea deal, a trial, I hope they do have good physical evidence that will make the case and, and connect all the dots. And sort of what you touched on, how horrifying would it be for these little girls to have to face that monster in court and relive and detail
54:52 Speaker 02 the horror they went through, explaining what he did and having him staring at them while they're doing it would be perhaps, you know, almost as bad as experiencing it again. So I, I hope it doesn't come to that personally.
55:08 Speaker 01 Yeah, I was thinking that too. Kind of maybe the cleanest way is for him to plead guilty, but still give up all the details and that might save the family. What would be a really tough trial? The other thing that, you know, we'll have to wait and see is, does it come out that he either admits to or gets connected to other crimes? Right? They have his DNA. I'm sure they're running it to see if it maybe matches any cold cases or unsolved cases. So something like that could come out as well.
55:51 Speaker 02 That's something we'll have to keep an eye on and see what developments are in this case.
55:55 Speaker 01 Yeah, absolutely. But that's it for our episode on the Devil's Den Murders. As always, if you love the show, but you haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, leave us a rating. You can leave a review. Also, keep telling your friends. Word of mouth about the criminology podcast really goes a long way.
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56:34 Speaker 01 So that's it for another episode of criminology, but Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then for Mike.
56:43 Speaker 02 And Morph.
56:44 Speaker 01 We'll talk to you next week.
56:45 Speaker 02 Take care, everyone.
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