Nancy Guthrie

Nancy Guthrie was seen by anyone in her family just before ten PM on January 31st, when a family member dropped her off at her home. Police now believe that she was abducted from her home by an unknown assailant. This case has made headlines for weeks now, with new details coming out daily. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss the disappearance and alleged abduction of Nancy Guthrie. Nancy's daughter, Savannah, is known to millions of people as a host on the popular Today show. That may have been one of the causes initially of the media frenzy. But now, people have been swept up by the emerging details, such as doorbell camera footage of the suspected perpetrator. There have been multiple ransom demands, some proven to be hoaxes, but no proof of life has been offered, and no credible demands have been made. The public is clamoring to find out what happened to Nancy and what her current status is. You can help support the show through Patreon. We'd love to connect with listeners on social media. We are available on the following platforms: Facebook - Facebook Discussion group - Instagram - Threads - X Formerly Twitter - Blue Sky - Twitch - Tik Tok Criminology is an Emash Digital production hosted by Mike Ferguson and Mike Morford.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Hello everyone and welcome to episode 397 of the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson.

• 0:43Speaker 02

  And this is Mike Morford.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  Mr. Morford, how you doing, buddy?

• 0:47Speaker 02

  I'm doing pretty good. How you doing?

• 0:48Speaker 01

  I'm doing great.

• 0:50Speaker 02

  I hear you're working on your, uh, your studio digs for you and Gibby there for your in-person recording.

• 0:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have, we have a new studio, which, you know, after 10 years, cause we're almost 10 years into this thing, it seems weird. And, and strangely, I was almost nervous recording for the first time, which, you know, is weird. We've been doing this so long, but I got a little bit of nerves just because it was a new, I guess, space. But as soon as we started recording, you know, that kind of went away and we just got into the, you know, the, the swing of things.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  Yeah. Anytime you change things up, there's always a little bit of jitters and, you know, getting used to it, but it's, it's hard to believe it's almost 10 years and what we've been around for eight or nine now.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38Speaker 02

  Crazy how time flies.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it really does. Well, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had Tammy Forkum and Seth Keener who jumped out at our highest level. So great new support. We really appreciate it.

• 1:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, thanks so much to Tammy and Seth and everyone else that supports the show. For anyone else that would like to head over to patreon.com/criminology to get started.

• 2:01Speaker 01

  And we have to do another reminder because time is running out, but in case you haven't heard, Morphe and I will be at Crime Con Vegas in just a few short months and we want to see you guys there.

• 2:12Speaker 02

  Crime Con is the world's biggest and best true crime convention. It's happening at Caesar's Palace, May 29th through the 31st. This is one of a kind of event to see all your favorite celebs from the world of true crime and to stop by and hang out with Mike and I on Creator's Row.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  We're also planning our annual criminology TCAT meetup with listeners. So you don't want to miss that. And if you're going to book now, use our promo code criminology. That will save you 10% on your standard badges when you check out at crimecon.com.

• 2:44Speaker 01

  All right, Morf. So now that we have all that out of the way, we need to dive into this week's case, and it is a big one. The missing persons and presumed abduction case of Nancy Guthrie out of Tucson, Arizona. If you've turned on the TV at all over the past week and a half, you have likely been greeted with stories and headlines about Nancy's case. There's so much to go over and unpack. And this is going to be a really full episode. And we'll have an expert on who's going to provide some insight into how things work behind the scenes on a case like this.

• 3:24Speaker 02

  And Mike, you've mentioned a presumed abduction. And the more details that come out and are released by law enforcement, the more this seems highly likely that it is an abduction. You seem to have an 84 year old woman dragged away from her home in the middle of the night. It's a terrifying situation and people want to see a good resolution. This doesn't seem like a random incident, as we'll discuss. It seems to have involved some planning, and it's likely that Nancy Guthrie was targeted. For those listeners who don't know, one of Nancy Guthrie's daughters Savannah is a well-known television news anchor. She's been the co-host of NBC's The Today Show since 2011.

• 4:00Speaker 01

  For the public, the news about this abduction broke late on February 2nd or early on the 3rd. By this point, Nancy had been missing from her home in the northern part of Tucson, Arizona for days. Before we get into the details of the disappearance, we need to talk about this area of Tucson, where Nancy lives, the Catalina Foothills, because it'll come into play. Tucson is a desert community. Lots of sand, lots of cactuses. It's made up of hilly terrain with culverts and hills. Now, most news outlets are not reporting Nancy's home address.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  And we won't be either, but we can say it's near East Skyline Drive and North Campbell Avenue. It's a $1 million home, and this is an upscale neighborhood with houses that are spread out, and the lighting is not the best. And this lack of lighting and the location of the homes is going to play a large role in this case. Nancy's home was armed with a security system and cameras, and that too is a big part of the story.

• 5:10Speaker 02

  Investigators believed early on that Nancy may have been kidnapped. She was last seen by anyone in her family just before 10:00 PM on January 31st, when a family member dropped her off at her home. Police have bounced around in clarifying who dropped her off, but most reports say that it was her son-in-law, Tommaso Sione, and that he dropped her off after a family dinner. Nancy was supposed to go to a friend's home the next morning to watch a live stream of church service, as she did every Sunday, but she didn't show up, which is out of character for her, and that raised concern. Thankfully, sometime after 11:00 AM, that friend contacted Nancy's family members so they could check on her. Just before noon, her family arrived at Nancy's home but couldn't find her. They checked the house itself, as well as the surrounding property.

• 5:55Speaker 02

  By noon, they contacted the Pima County Sheriff's Department to report her disappearance, and that officially kicked off the investigation into this case.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  It was clear that Nancy's family immediately took this situation seriously. Her daughter Savannah, who lives in New York City, flew out to Arizona as soon as she could. She was set to co-host the Olympics opening ceremony in Milan, Italy, but understandably, due to her mother's disappearance, she withdrew from that responsibility and stayed close to her sister Annie and brother Cameron. Cameron lives in Vermont, so he too had to get out to Arizona. It was immediately clear to investigators that something bad had happened to Nancy, and she hadn't just popped out of the house unannounced. Her car was still parked in the garage.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Her cellphone, wallet, and an Apple Watch that she always wore were still at the home. Perhaps more importantly, her hearing aid and her medication, which she needed to take daily for a chronic health condition, had also been left behind. The actual medication Nancy takes has not been named, but according to the FBI, it's needed for a heart condition. And according to reports, not taking this medication could be fatal for Nancy. So it's pretty clear that police knew right away, this was a race against time. And to me more, you know, this is just a nightmare of a situation.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  You have an 84 year old woman who, you know, if Nancy is anything like the people in my life at that age, they have a pretty set pattern. Most people, when they get into their 80s, they may still be active, but by and large, they're not spur of the moment as much as maybe a 20 year old, right? The patterns are pretty well established. And one thing that you don't see often is someone dropping, you know, off the grid, not contacting people, right? That's just not normal.

• 8:15Speaker 01

  And I can only imagine what the family was, was going through in this period.

• 8:22Speaker 02

  And we do hear sometimes that senior citizens, older people will sometimes have conditions like dementia, those kinds of things, Alzheimer's, and they'll wander off. But as we'll talk about shortly, that's not the case with Nancy. Everyone that, that knew her said that, you know, she was very sharp, very alert, didn't have any of those conditions. She also had some physical elements that we'll get into that would have probably prevented her from just walking off. So I think to the, the credit of the police, they seemed to say early on, okay, this, this woman didn't just walk out of her front door and go someplace, something happened to her. And I think that approach was the right one.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Investigating Nancy's devices helped authorities put together a timeline of when something seemed to have happened to Nancy. And we're going to go over the full timeline, starting back before Nancy vanished. On Saturday night, January 31st at 5:32 PM, Nancy traveled to her daughter Annie's and son in La Tomas' home, and reportedly she took an Uber there. While there, the family reportedly played games and had dinner. Later that night, family dropped Nancy off at her home at 9:48 PM. The security system recorded the garage door opening at 9:48 and closing at 9:50. And again, it's fuzzy on who actually dropped Nancy off, but most reports say that it was her son-in-law.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  Early on the morning of Sunday, February 1st, at 1:47 AM, the home security system doorbell camera, or Nest Cam, at the front door of Nancy's home, disconnected, or went offline. And we're going to talk about this further. 27 minutes later, at 2:12 AM, the security system detected a person at the front door, although no video was initially available. 16 minutes later, at 2:28 AM, Nancy's Pacemaker app, which was connected via Bluetooth, disconnected from her phone. A lot of people hear this and think that her Pacemaker disconnecting means that she could have died,

• 10:30Speaker 01

  but that simply means that she likely moved far away enough from the Bluetooth signal that it disconnected. Sort of what happens when you go too far with your headphones or your earbuds from a Bluetooth signal. And I have a similar situation more. I have a glucose monitor that I wear on my arm that's connected to my iPhone. And if I happen to leave, you know, my phone on one level of the house and I, I go to the, the second level, eventually it disconnects and there's an alarm on the phone that drives the whole family crazy.

• 11:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, those alerts, the signals, those Bluetooth connections can be tricky. You know, I go on one side of my house out in the yard and I seem to drop my connections for Bluetooth stuff. But I go to the other side of the house and it's perfectly fine. So, you know, the signals definitely can help tell a little bit of what's going on. It's not until over nine hours later, at 11:56 AM, that family arrived at the home to check on Nancy and found it empty. Again, this is an area where police have been tight lipped. We don't really know which family member went to the home, but it was presumably Nancy's daughter, Annie, or Tomaso, or both. At 12:03 PM, the call is made to police,

• 11:50Speaker 02

  and at 12:15, the first patrol car arrived. So at least by what police were able to establish early on, it seems like the first sign of trouble may have been around 1:47 AM when that front camera disconnected. Now, the cameras and security sensors seem to do their job, but there was a problem. To record and maintain video footage captured by the cameras, Nancy would have needed a subscription plan, and she didn't have one. So that meant short of real time alerts that someone was at her door, for example, there wouldn't be any video of what transpired.

• 12:22Speaker 01

  And that is kind of one of the shortfalls, I guess, for the lack of a better word, of some of these front door cameras or different security systems. You know, if you don't sign up for the subscription, really what you have are alerts. You don't get kind of that record of the video in many of them. And for a lot of people, that's probably enough, right? They get an alert. That's all they really want until something bad happens, right? And then you kind of wish you had that video to look at. And that's obviously what we're talking about in this case.

• 13:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, we've got pretty heavy security at our house here. And, you know, after this case, I'm already looking at options to upgrade and maximize the protection for us, you know, because this really opened my eyes to some of the shortcomings that you can have in your security.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  We should point out that some reports state that the camera that detected a person was an interior camera inside the home, while others report that it was from the exterior camera near the front door. If it really was an interior camera that sensed movements, it could have been Nancy moving around in her home, or it could have been someone who had entered the home. It was eventually revealed that the exterior camera near the front door was physically removed. Presumably by the assailant in this case, based on the timeline provided by that security system and Nancy's pacemaker app disconnecting,

• 14:06Speaker 01

  we can surmise that someone showed up at her front step at 1:47 or before, somehow gained entry into Nancy's home and forced her out of it by 2:12, when she got far away from her Bluetooth signal and it lost contact. After that, we just don't know what happened. This is where the questions begin. Was she marched off on foot? Was she put into a car? Did she get into a car willingly? We just don't know.

• 14:39Speaker 02

  As police looked around the property, they found some very important and disturbing clues. First, there were several blood drops on the front doorstep. There's a video of this blood and it's very noticeable if you're looking down. Some people ask the question, how did her family not notice that blood when they showed up to check on her? And if they were looking forward and maybe at the door or through a window, they may not have seen it. The blood trail seemed to lead away from the porch and then stopped. And by blood trail, we don't mean like a large pool or indication that there was blood spraying, just several drops indicating that someone was bleeding pretty steadily. DNA testing would quickly prove that this blood was Nancy's. So it was clear that when she left her home, she was injured and bleeding.

• 15:23Speaker 01

  There have been no reports of any broken windows or forced entry into the home. And we know the garage door did not open after it closed the night before at 9:50. So it seems likely that Nancy was taken out the front door where the blood was. There have also been some reports stating that the back door of the home was standing open. This all leads to the question. If this person didn't break into the home using force, did they simply find a door unlocked and enter? Or could they have used a key? Or maybe, you know, Nancy let this person in? There's no way to know for sure at this point.

• 16:03Speaker 02

  So let's recap what we know up to this point. Nancy, according to the family, was dropped off at her home the night before and made it safely inside. We have to assume that to be true because her pacemaker was detected inside the home. At some point in the early morning hours, just before 2:00 a.m., it seems someone showed up outside her home. And by 2:30 a.m., that person, along with Nancy, were gone. And Nancy was injured in the process. What we don't really know is what happened in between. How did the person get in? And what happened once they were inside? Obviously, police may have more information, but if so, they're holding it back.

• 16:40Speaker 01

  So based on everything we've talked about up to this point, it seems like someone came into Nancy's house, something bad happened and they took her. But police, likely early on, before they knew much of this stuff, had to explore the possibility that Nancy could have walked away from her home on her own, perhaps confused. But no one, not her family, not investigators, really believed that Nancy had walked away from her home and had gotten lost in the desert. She had, as you said, more no known issues with her memory that would have caused, you know, wandering or confusion, nothing like dementia or Alzheimer's.

• 17:24Speaker 01

  To the contrary, Nancy has been described as being very sharp. Now Nancy does suffer from limited mobility and uses a cane, making it unlikely that she would have made it very far from her house, even if she did, for some reason, end up wandering off in the middle of the night. We also talked about Nancy having a pacemaker, taking medicine. So even if she had wandered out of the home, she likely would not have made it far on foot. So based on everything police knew about Nancy and what they found at her house, it was pretty clear to them that this was an abduction. But who would take Nancy and why?

• 18:08Speaker 02

  By February 4th, multiple news outlets had received ransom notes demanding money in exchange for Nancy's safe return. The Tucson-based station K O L D has an online contact form for submitting tips, and they received the demand for $4 million of Bitcoin through this online forum. The deadline was set for February 5th, but allowed for a February 9 Bitcoin delivery with an extra $2 million, tacked on as interest for the delay. Nancy's daughter Annie and her husband Tomaso both reportedly received text messages asking them if they had obtained the Bitcoin yet. But it seems that initially, these news outlets, maybe working with police, didn't publicly share that they had received these ransom demands.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  After none of the news outlets shared the details about the ransom demands, TMZ received an email essentially outlining these ransom demands. According to a People Magazine article, the letter begins by saying, "She," meaning Nancy, "is safe but scared." As far as we know, there was no proof of life offered in the letter. The TMZ news about a ransom spread quickly. So at this point, it was hard to keep under wraps. But in big cases like this, there's always the possibility that someone out to make

• 19:33Speaker 01

  a quick buck and not actually connected to the crime will involve themselves, and that's exactly what happened. There has been at least one confirmed hoaxer, and authorities have already caught him. On February 5th, 42-year-old Derek Kalella was arrested at his home in Hawthorne, California. He has been charged with transmitting a demand for ransom and anonymously using a telecommunications device with the intent to abuse, threaten, or harass another person. It turns out that those texts to Annie and Tomaso were from him. He also called one of her family members.

• 20:15Speaker 01

  It hasn't been disclosed who the call lasted nine seconds. The authorities were quick to warn people. Do not make ransom demands like this because you will get caught and be in hot water. Heath Janky FBI Phoenix Special Agent in Charge put out a statement that read in part, "To those imposters who are trying to take advantage and profit from this situation, we will investigate and ensure you're held accountable for your actions."

• 20:46Speaker 02

  It never ceases to amaze me how many people slimy people come out of the woodwork in a tragic situation like this to try and make a quick buck and try and weasel their way into the, you know, the, the hearts of the family members that are wanting their loved one back. And here they are trying to make, take advantage of them and get money out of them. It's, it's really pitiful and thank God the FBI was able to catch this guy quickly.

• 21:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, to me, it's really despicable that people will come out after a tragedy such as this and try to fleece the family for money. You could also make the argument about like a natural disaster, right? A hurricane or something to that effect. You undoubtedly always have people who come out and say that they're disaster cleanup people. And basically they're just fleecing people out of money.

• 21:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, you know, this kind of situation brings out the best in some people and the worst in others.

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• 23:18Speaker 02

  At the time we're recording this, there have reportedly been multiple ransom demands sent using a variety of methods, later email, text. One person claimed to know who the abductor was, but wanted one Bitcoin, which is the equivalent of close to $60,000 in exchange for the information. They reportedly supplied their own email and contact information. There's a large reward being offered in this case, so why wouldn't you just go that route and try to provide the name of the perp if you had it and collect the reward and do it the right way? One of the ransom demands gave instructions and an account that money was to be transferred into. According to reports, up to $6 million was to go into this account, which is a publicly viewable account, by the way.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  According to some reports, a very small amount was deposited into it, less than $300 total. This could have been done by the authorities in an attempt to track to see who tries to collect or withdraw that money.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Nancy's children have expressed an interest in paying these ransoms. If it means getting their mom back safely, they have appeared in multiple videos that were released, asking for communication from the abductor, as well as proof of life. And we don't want to spend too much time on these ransoms because they may have nothing to do with Nancy's case. They could just be red herrings. But unfortunately, the authorities have to consider all of these demands as possibly being connected. And in a race against time to save a sick and elderly woman, that can be a real waste of time and resources.

• 24:57Speaker 01

  What we do know for sure is that all of the deadlines given in these ransoms have passed. And there's been no proof of life for Nancy offered, and no communication that's confirmed to be from the actual abductor.

• 25:14Speaker 02

  On Tuesday, February 10th, we got some major news. It took over a week to recover them, but it turns out that despite Nancy not having a subscription plan for the Nest camera, the system did save the recordings in the cloud somewhere. The FBI was able to help restore the data, and it confirms that there was someone on Nancy's porch tampering with her camera. They released this video, and it's chilling to say the least. Someone in a ski mask and gloves walks up to Nancy's door. You can see that they were wearing a backpack and have some kind of handgun holstered on the front of their waist. They're wearing what looks like multiple pairs of disposable gloves. It almost looks like they're surprised by the camera because they don't head right to it. Once they're aware

• 25:57Speaker 02

  of it, they put their hands up in a way that covers their face as they try to figure out how to take the camera down. And what's interesting is I hadn't seen this kind of holster. You know, I know they make holsters that sort of are for concealed carry. They go on the inside of your pants someplace, but the ones I've typically seen, they go on your right side or your left side, whereas this one was down the front of his pants, basically. But, you know, I know you do a lot of shooting, and you're familiar with that kind of holster.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's actually called appendix carry and it's become more and more popular over the years. And I think now a lot of holster companies are actually making holsters for this appendix carry. I have never done it just because it seems strange to holster a gun that is directly pointed at, well, let's be honest, more if you're most prized possessions. I don't know how else to say it. It can be a little scary, but it is a very popular way to carry now.

• 27:09Speaker 02

  Yeah. And that's, you know, some of the experts I've seen on some of the shows were saying they're not familiar with that, but maybe that's something that's really unique. Maybe somebody does remember somebody that carries a gun like that, maybe at the shooting range or whatever. And that's going to be something that's, that's a big clue. And it's also in the video, you can see that it's like a right hand grab. So it appears the person's likely right-handed.

• 27:35Speaker 01

  Well, I don't know what type of experts these would be because that would be strange to me to have an expert say that they're not familiar with this type of carry because it's pretty well known. So we have this person on the porch, right? They're figuring out how to take the camera down. Then the person walks away from the camera for a moment, looking around before deciding to grab some shrubbery from the front of the house. And it seems like they were planning on draping it over the camera lens, perhaps. It appears that they have some kind of flashlight in their mouth because when they walk back to the camera, there's a light shining from their mouth. They then place the shrubbery over

• 28:20Speaker 01

  the camera lens, blocking the view. This is likely so that they could use both hands to remove the camera without recording more of their face. In photos and video from the crime scene, on the ground next to the welcome mat, directly next to the drops of blood on the porch, was all of this shrubbery that the suspect had used to cover the camera.

• 28:44Speaker 02

  It's clear that this person had taken steps to keep from being identified, but even in a ski mask, there were clues. Most people seem to think that the abductor is a man. He's likely white or Hispanic. He has large, round eyes and appears to have a neatly manicured mustache that protrudes through the mouth hole, as well as possible hair under his lip, perhaps indicating a goatee. Some people also seem to think that this person has a very neatly manicured set of eyebrows. It's important to point out that this is that kind of black and white thermal night imaging, which isn't nearly like seeing someone in the daylight and in color. But still, the video provides a lot of helpful details. From these details, we can get a good view of the intruder's walk, their gait, their

• 29:29Speaker 02

  build. Although initially, no official height or weight or other descriptors of the person was released by the authorities, Susan Constantine, a body language and human behavioral expert, shared in a New York Post video that she believes the suspect has big brown eyes, stands five foot 10 to five foot 11, and is in good shape with a medium to stocky build.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Some of the other key things seen in the video may provide important clues. For one thing, the intruder is wearing a distinct backpack. And it looks like when they arrive at the scene, that backpack is full. You can see that there's clearly stuff in the bag. Now, what it is, we don't know, but it could be a big clue. Because if that person was there to rob Nancy, you'd think they'd have an empty bag with them so that they could carry out valuables, jewelry, money, whatever they can fit in there. So the fact that the bag was full could mean that robbery wasn't the motive.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  It could also mean that perhaps things connected to a pre-planned, forceful abduction could be in the bag. Maybe rope, zip ties, handcuffs, a bag to put over Nancy's head, any number of things. CNN reported that the backpack is widely believed to be an Ozark Trail hiker brand. Ozark Trail is Walmart's private label outdoor brand. The authorities have confirmed that they believe the backpack is indeed an Ozark Trail backpack, so that bag could turn out to be an important clue. And the authorities will likely try to trace any sales of that bag.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  The person is also wearing like, what's kind of like a tracksuit type of zip up jacket and light colored running shoes or sneakers. There's also a lot of speculation and online debate about the brand of clothing and shoes, but no official indication from authorities about that as of the time we're recording this. And I think more of when you take all of this into consideration, right, the video and everything that we've talked about, it's pretty easy to see why authorities would, after, you know, gaining this knowledge,

• 31:54Speaker 01

  quickly pivot from a missing persons case to more of an abduction.

• 32:02Speaker 02

  While all of these images of the suspect were being released, agents from the FBI and officers from the sheriff's department were going door to door in Annie and Tommaso's neighborhood, interviewing neighbors and also searching properties and and drainage pipes. We still don't know what specifically they were searching for, or what information they felt Nancy's daughter and son-in-law's neighbors could have about Nancy's disappearance. One neighbor said the agents were looking for cameras and wanted to search the wash that ran along their backyard. We should point out that Annie and Tommaso's home is about four miles away from Nancy's, or about a 10 minute drive. And this is not the first time that police have had interest in their home. They've been there multiple times, searching around it and inside of it.

• 32:47Speaker 02

  Police also towed away their vehicle and took it for processing reportedly with their blessing and not with a warrant.

• 32:54Speaker 01

  Early on in the investigation, Ashley Banfield reported that according to her confidential source, Nancy's son-in-law, Tomaso Seoni, the husband of her daughter Annie, and possibly the last person to see her the night before she disappeared, was potentially the prime suspect in the case. Authorities seemed to refute this at their next press conference, though, and Tomaso has not been arrested or charged in this case, but many people are still suspicious of him and the continued searching of his home and nearby homes of his neighbors. Probably has not helped to ease that suspicion. Obviously, in cases like this, police start looking at the people closest to the victim

• 33:39Speaker 01

  and then work out from there. And in Nancy's case, that's no exception. Whether police behind the scenes suspect Tomaso of being involved or have any reason to keep digging into him, we don't know. But it did seem odd to me more if that, you know, police seem to have spent a lot of time searching in and around Annie and Tomaso's home and then also searching around the neighbor, their neighbor's homes. I mean, they even took their vehicle. So I get it.

• 34:18Speaker 01

  That seems like a lot and you can understand maybe why it fueled some of the suspicion of Tomaso and maybe even Annie, but again, we just don't know.

• 34:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, to me, that's very interesting because, you know, they're spending a lot of time there, as much time, if not more than the time they spent around Nancy's property. And so to, you know, I take that to mean something's sending them there, whatever that is, we don't know. But I don't think they'd be spending that much time, resources in and around their home as well as all their neighbors' yards if there wasn't something there they were seeking and some reason for them to be there. On Tuesday, February 10th, there was more breaking news when it was confirmed that the Pima County Sheriff's Department had a person of interest detained for questioning in Nancy's case.

• 35:13Speaker 02

  This was in the town of Rio Roco, located an hour south of Tucson and just 20 minutes from the Mexican border. The man identified as Carlos Palazuelos was reportedly pulled over in a traffic stop without incident. Either at that same moment or later on, the home in which he lives in with his partner, his children, and his mother-in-law was raided by police. According to Carlos and his family, the door was knocked off the hinges. His car and phones were searched and given back to him. It's not clear why investigators were interested in Carlos or what led them to him, but he was released and wasn't charged. Carlos, who was clearly unnerved and upset by the run-in with police, was interviewed

• 35:56Speaker 02

  by multiple news outlets and said he had no idea why police were interested in him. He does have family in Tucson, and he also works there as a delivery driver. So whatever led police to him may have had something to do with that. But since police did let him go, it seems like they don't think he's involved. Carlos said he didn't know Nancy Guthrie and wasn't sure if he ever delivered to her home.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  So this lead or potential lead seems to have been a dead end, but police have kept busy looking at all possible clues in the case. There were early reports that investigators wanted the surveillance footage from a Circle K gas station in between Annie and Tomaso's home and Nancy's. It seems that they were hoping to obtain footage of any people or vehicles in the area around the time Nancy vanished. Some reports say that a vehicle of interest was developed from that video, but as of now, investigators have been tight-lipped about why it's of interest or what kind of vehicle it is.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  As of now, the time of this recording, this is where things stand in Nancy Guthrie's case. And unfortunately, we don't have a lot to go on. And we don't know if there's a strong suspect police are looking at. There was very early mention by some sources that there was possible DNA evidence left by the abductor, but it was never really mentioned again, or confirmed. But it seems like a tantalizing clue if it's true. There are also reports that investigators are seeking voluntary cheek swabs of landscapers and workers who may have been to Nancy Guthrie's home. The best evidence or clue may be the video footage of Nancy's presumed abductor. We talked about his clothing, his backpack, certain things about his face, and someone out there may recognize him by his walk or his body movements or mannerisms.

• 37:44Speaker 01

  Likely because of a lack of evidence and information and due to the continued searches of her daughter's home. Nancy's children have been under a microscope. Their grief and anxiety in the videos they release are being picked apart as meaning something else or indicating X, Y, or Z. People say stuff like, there was a lot of blinking in this video. Savannah wore makeup in this one. Annie sounds like a robot. Or why is the son-in-law absent from these videos? Is he hiding something? For Savannah, she's used to being in the public eye and facing criticism or negative comments. But for the

• 38:28Speaker 01

  rest of her family, being in the spotlight and being accused by some of being involved, that's got to be tough. And I think more of you see this frequently from people online, right? They pick apart these videos. I think more often than not, what they're saying, you know, turns out not to be true, or it doesn't mean what they think it means. Now, every now and then, people are right. I think the Chris Watts videos are a perfect example of that. But, you know, I think we have to be really careful. Unfortunately, I don't think a lot of people are. But, you know, when you are talking about the family and

• 39:10Speaker 01

  really casting suspicion on them, and it's tough.

• 39:16Speaker 02

  And if they're not involved in any way and have nothing to do with Nancy's abduction.

• 39:23Speaker 01

  You know, they're going through a lot and then they have to deal with this, you know, suspicion and accusation on top of it. It can't be easy. And then if there's a conclusion in this case down the road, they're going to have to deal with that stuff. And, you know, all the suspicion they were under the scrutiny. So just not a good situation for Nancy's family to be in.

• 39:45Speaker 02

  Theories in this case are running wild. Some people think that the family wanted Nancy dead so they could inherit her home or property. But theories also range from terrorism to cartel involvement to even the Jeffrey Epstein files playing a role. For now, we just don't know why Nancy was abducted, or by who, or what their end goal is. People are also jumping on every bit of news and connecting it to the case. This week, an 84 year old woman was life flighted to a hospital in the Tucson area, and people ran wild with the theory that it was Nancy and that she had been found. It turned out not to be her.

• 40:21Speaker 01

  On Wednesday, February 11th, what was described as a black glove was found by searchers about a mile and a half from Nancy's home. Some reports said that two gloves were found. And apparently, that's what police are confirming, that it was two gloves. Either way, in an investigation where no stone is being left unturned, the authorities are likely going to try and determine who dropped that glove or gloves, and whether it's connected to Nancy's case. Gloves can be a rich source of DNA. So it seems likely that police can ID the owner. But is it another red herring? If it's not related to the case, then it's just another waste of time and resources.

• 41:06Speaker 02

  So I think we have to speculate a bit. Is it possible that financial gain by a stranger could be a motive in this case? Nancy's daughter Savannah Guthrie being on TV could be related to why someone targeted her mom. She's famous and worth millions. So perhaps someone could have abducted Nancy for ransom, expecting Savannah to pay. And if someone wanted to target Savannah by going after her mom Nancy, Nancy wasn't hard to find. It's no secret that Nancy lives in Tucson. She's lived there since the 1970s. And Savannah's quite open about the fact and has even talked about living in Tucson on the Today Show as recently as November 2025. In that episode, Savannah said, "My mom still lives there."

• 41:49Speaker 02

  And she appeared on camera with her mom and sister in Tucson. While they didn't film at Nancy's home, someone could have easily gleaned enough information to track Nancy down. Savannah has talked publicly at other times about how her father passed away in 1988, and his obituaries online for anyone to look up. So it was probably easy for anyone to figure out that Nancy was on her own.

• 42:11Speaker 01

  And let's face it, Morph, in this day and age, there's so much information online. It's, it's not that hard at all, right? To track someone down if you really wanted to. Financial gain by a stranger, like you talked about, Morph, certainly is a possibility. And we touched on financial gain by someone close to Nancy. What we haven't talked about is what if the motive for this abduction is not financial? We mentioned how the person showed up to the home with a full backpack, apparently not planning on stealing anything. What if the motive was a sexual attack?

• 42:52Speaker 01

  Women who are alone and vulnerable, even elderly women are often targeted for those kinds of attacks. But often, in a great many of those cases, after the attack, the attacker flees the home for a quick getaway. They don't bring the victim with them. And we mentioned Nancy wasn't extremely mobile. She couldn't walk far, and she needed a cane. She wouldn't have been easy to move, especially for one person. And that raises another possibility. Was there more than one perpetrator? We only see one person in the video. But that doesn't mean there wasn't a second person involved, perhaps out of view of the

• 43:37Speaker 01

  camera or waiting in a nearby getaway vehicle.

• 43:42Speaker 02

  It seems like police are counting on surveillance footage as well as physical evidence to use to solve this case. They likely are tracking cell phones and vehicles in the area of Nancy's home around the time of the abduction, and they're likely digging into the various ransom demands. But to this point, all of that has not led to an arrest or to Nancy Guthrie's recovery. Patience with the investigators is wearing thin for some people. There's been a lot of criticism in this case. In one instance, Nancy's home was opened back up to her family and people were free to go back and forth to it, with reporters even filming the bloody entryway. Then suddenly, without warning, police raced back to the home once again, putting up crime scene tape before searching the roof and nearby drains.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  And Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanas, the lead person at most of the press conferences in this case, drew the ire of people when he was spotted at a University of Arizona basketball game earlier this week at the height of the investigation. While he's certainly entitled to a life outside of work, the optics didn't look good. The longer this case goes without resolution, the more negative comments seem to come the investigators' way.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  You know, this is a case that is not like many others we've covered. Part of that is because so much is unfolding by the day. There's so much information to sort out and dissect just for us as podcast hosts or for our listeners. So you can imagine how big a task this is, dealing with all this for investigators who are racing against time to find Nancy. To help us understand the ins and outs of a case like this and everything that's involved, we invited on an expert to help walk us through it all, Sergeant Marlon Marachi.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Spent 24 years with the LAPD and has worked in the Internal Affairs Department and as a public information officer. With there being so much stuff to sort through and put out there for the public in a case like Nancy's, we asked Sergeant Marachi how law enforcement decides what to put out there and what to hold back.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  One of the things that stands out the most about this case is the fact that yes, it is viral, it's nationwide, and lucky that the Pima County Sheriff's Office decided to make it a multi-jurisdictional, multi-functional operation with the FBI, right? And so, when you are doing these soundbites, you're giving these press conferences, you want to be able to preserve as much information as possible because we don't want to like tip off the suspect, one, two, but rewards are very important, they're suitable, and they're good to go, if you will, in terms of getting some momentum and getting tips

• 46:31Speaker 03

  out there for people to report and see, hey, you know what, yeah, I saw the suspect, or I know this information, so on and so forth. But the big challenge with this particular case is that it's nationwide, right? It's viral. So, imagine you working at the command post as one of the officers, or one of the deputies, or one of the agents, and you're just getting flooded with all these leads, all this information. You want to be able to decipher what's a really good lead and, you know, go with that lead and investigate, no stone goes unturned. And so, that's one of the big challenges. But what people are not talking a lot about is the fact that when you have a multi-jurisdictional,

• 47:12Speaker 03

  multi-functional operation, you got to determine who's going to take lead on this. In other words, hand over the baton, Pima County Sheriff's, and let us do what we're really good at doing. Not to say that Pima County is not good at what they're doing, however, you do need the necessary resources, tools and equipment, forensics, digital evidence, you need that personnel, and you need all those resources to ensure that you're doing a full-blown investigation as you're trying to find Ms. Guthrie, and of course, the ultimate goal is to get her home safe.

• 47:48Speaker 02

  Sergeant Marachi next discussed the challenge of so many people working together and deciding on how to handle everything coming in as far as tips and leads.

• 47:57Speaker 03

  What you would do is you would create a command post and start delegating certain duties. Like for example, you'll have maybe a supervisor to say, okay, when you get this type of digital evidence, then you're going to be in charge of that information to disseminate. You overhear the supervisor, command staff administrator, when you get these tips and they believe that they saw something very important, then you're going to be responsible for that and it all gets funneled to one person, right? But with that being said, the most important evidence is what's inside the house. And guess what? We weren't able to get any type of evidence as to what happened in that house.

• 48:38Speaker 03

  As you can tell from the facts, there's about a 40 to 50 minute gap, right? A lapse in time where the suspect was in there. And so what we do need to know is process that crime scene and get what happened inside, especially in the bedroom, right? Or the whole house for that matter. But as you know, and we all know, is that the scene was secured and then all of a sudden a couple of days later it was opened, where the media got let in and you know, you saw the media taking recordings of the blood splatter right there by the door. I believe there were some in the backyard as well. And people walking in and out, the family let back in.

• 49:22Speaker 03

  That just is going to be a major challenge because it is going to cause some type of contamination that's going to compromise the entire investigation.

• 49:31Speaker 02

  We asked Sergeant Marachi how unusual it was for Nancy's home to be released as a crime scene so quickly.

• 49:40Speaker 03

  During my time to patrol, when we responded to these critical missings, right? And certainly, I haven't worked an abduction case. I just want to go on the record to say that. However, there is some primary, basic, fundamental investigative duties and responsibilities as you arrive at scene. And one of those basic duties is to secure the perimeter as much as possible. Why? Because the experts, right, the detectives are going to come and process that crime scene. Because it is a crime scene, right? You have a possible kidnapping, abduction. Yeah, and you know, and chances are, you might, and again, I want to be clear here, you might have a murder. You might have a murder case. We don't know that yet. So when you have all these thoughts, right, and all these preliminary criminal acts, if you will,

• 50:26Speaker 03

  you have to preserve that crime scene. That's super, super important. So what you would do is you would do an inner perimeter, right? Tape off everything around the house. And then you would also do an outer perimeter where the quadrant, at least the closest quadrant. And that's determined by the supervisor at scene, how you want that outer perimeter. And then what you do is you grab a deputy that has a log. That's going to log every single person that comes into the scene and out the scene. And you want to keep that log in chronological order.

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Sergeant Marachi talked about some of the video surveillance clues in this case.

• 51:03Speaker 03

  Definitely, you have a possible suspect, right? At scene, attempting to get into the front door, right? If he's trying to be deceitful by covering the doorbell camera, then that gives you some intentions that he's trying to get into the house. So you can establish that as the case moves forward, okay? After that, we don't know what's to come. And again, I think the most important information, and I'm sure the FBI has all this information, perhaps all this evidence is when you process the crime scene as it relates to what's inside the house. We haven't heard about anything that's inside the house, and I think that's super important.

• 51:46Speaker 03

  You know, where the gatherings happen to be, if the house is in disarray, if it's disheveled. You know, maybe you can kind of come up with a theory as to what is it that the suspect did in terms of, okay, they entered the front door and they perhaps went this direction. The bedroom's located on the east side of the house. So now they made a left turn and went to this direction. There's just so much information where you can build up this theory. But again, it's the unknown. The hardest part about these type of cases is what we don't know. I guess that's the best way to label it.

• 52:23Speaker 02

  We asked Sergeant Marachi to share his thoughts on the decision to share these images at the time they did.

• 52:32Speaker 03

  My thinking is, is that it takes time to process video surveillance. And you want to make sure that you're depicting solid information that's going to appease the media, right? And definitely let the community know, right? For tips. So it's not so much that it took so long. But I, what I will say, had the FBI would have taken the lead on this from day one, right? Chances are, we probably would have gotten this video surveillance evidence a couple of days ago. Or I should say, a couple of days prior. Now you have something to go by, right? So now we have a suspect, and we have clothing, we got stature,

• 53:15Speaker 03

  height, maybe weight. And I'm telling you, man, the FBI has all these tools and equipments that can probably go ahead and identify who this person is. And again, investigations like this take time to process.

• 53:31Speaker 02

  We asked Sergeant Marachi, if he was the public information officer in this case, and was about to go out now with the latest information to address the public and appeal for help, how would he approach it?

• 53:43Speaker 03

  What I would do as a PIO, I will give, this is updated information. As you can see, this surveillance video depicts a suspect. We believe that it's a male individual. As you can see, the clothing, please, as anybody has seen any type of clothing similar to the suspect that's depicted in this video surveillance, give us a call. I would really focus in on the tipping, right, to call the hotline and to call the tip line because now you have something to go by. Because for all we know, maybe a couple of miles down the road or somewhere, someone's going to say, oh, you know what? Yeah, here's the clothing that kind of matches what

• 54:22Speaker 03

  we just saw in that surveillance video. Or here's that mask. So I would really focus and hone in on the hat, on the fact that we need your help. We need you to get out there and let us know if you have any information, or you happen to see something similar to this suspect, this individual, please give us a call. And of course, someone's going to ask, so what's the latest and what's the next steps? Well, the next step is to definitely grab that lead of this video surveillance of this male individual and just move forward and try as and make a full-blown attempt to identify who this person is.

• 55:04Speaker 01

  We asked Sergeant Marachi if there's a risk to releasing this video, if it might tip off the suspect, and he gets rid of stuff that may tie him to the crime.

• 55:15Speaker 03

  Those are the calculated risks that you take in investigations, but you're better off given the information, because we do have some good Samaritans out there that will call and update us and help the FBI and Pima County Sheriff's Office, right? As opposed to, and again, we can both agree that if this individual saw this, yeah, he's on the run, man. Time is of the essence.

• 55:42Speaker 01

  We can't thank Sergeant Marlon Marachi enough for coming on. Be sure to check out his work, including on this case, on his YouTube channel, The Marlon Marachi Show. That's M-A-R-R-A-C-H-E.

• 55:55Speaker 02

  There's no doubt that Nancy Guthrie's children and her grandchildren just want her home. Until that happens and they're reunited, they're undoubtedly going through hell. And Nancy herself, you can't imagine what a terrifying ordeal this had to be for her. She likely woke up that night to a masked man in her home and was attacked. It could be out there now being held someplace and being terrorized by her captor.

• 56:18Speaker 01

  In the most recent updates, as we were about to record, we have the following items. First, and this comes from KVOA's Jacob Owens. He says that police are asking for any doorbell video footage from anyone near Nancy's home from Sunday, January 11th, between 9:00 PM and midnight. He also mentions that police are interested in footage from Saturday, January 31st, between 9:30 and 11:00 AM, as there was reportedly a suspicious vehicle on Via Entrada about 10:00 AM. Those with cameras are asked to check before any possible video is overwritten.

• 57:00Speaker 01

  Another big update is that according to Nancy Grace, police are now looking for a gray pickup truck that was seen at some point in Nancy's neighborhood. There aren't many details about it, but they seem to want to ID the driver and talk to them.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Other late breaking details include a surveillance video that surfaced over the past 24 hours of an unidentified man a few miles from Nancy Guthrie's home who was carrying multiple backpacks and appeared to try and throw one over a fence. This was around the timeframe that Nancy was abducted, but apparently that man has now been identified and ruled out in connection with Nancy's case.

• 57:38Speaker 01

  Police have also put out an official description of the suspect, describing them as a male, medium build and standing five foot nine, five foot 10.

• 57:50Speaker 02

  In what may be the biggest and most important news to come out, it's being reported that a glove not belonging to Nancy was found inside her home, and it's been sent to a lab in Florida that could yield some major clues. So we'll have to wait to see where that goes.

• 58:05Speaker 01

  While most of, you know, the latest info seems to indicate that, all right, police might be closer to figuring out what happened to Nancy. There has been some discouraging news being reported, and that is that there appears to be some friction or disconnect between the Pima County Sheriff's Office and the FBI. There apparently is some bickering and back and forth over who's in charge and handling and sharing of the evidence and case details. That's probably the last thing Nancy's family wants to hear. So hopefully they can work that out.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  There's now a $100,000 reward doubled from $50,000 being offered for information that leads to either Nancy Guthrie's recovery or an arrest in this case. If you have any information, you can contact the FBI by calling 800-225-5324, or the non-emergency line of the Pima County Sheriff's Department at 520-351-4900. Hey, it's Morphe here with a very late update. After Mike and I recorded this in the overnight hours of Friday, February 13th to Saturday, February 14th, there was a SWAT raid at a home two miles from Nancy Guthrie's on the 6,200 block of Camini, De Michael in Tucson.

• 59:23Speaker 02

  At the same time, there was a traffic stop at a nearby Culver's fast food restaurant. These two incidents are reportedly connected to each other and to the Nancy Guthrie case. Reportedly, there were multiple people taken into custody in these two incidents. Some reports say that three and up to four people were taken into custody. There are also unconfirmed reports that someone may have taken their life in connection to these incidents, but there's no way to confirm it. And again, it may not be true. At the Culver's police stop, a silver or gray Range Rover that looked as if it had been parked there for a while and was dirty, was being heavily looked at by police on scene. And eventually they made entry into the back of the SUV. When they did, they surrounded police vehicles around it

• 1:00:06Speaker 02

  and raised yellow tarps to prevent witnesses or reporters from looking inside. What if anything was in there? We don't know. The SUV was then towed away. It seems like this latest action by police may already be proving to be a false lead. According to Brian Enton of News Nation in an X post from the morning of February 14th, he states, "The Pima County Sheriff tells local affiliate K O L D, last night's operation was, quote, 'Nothing more than a lead track down that led to a search warrant and no arrest,' and added, 'Just tracking down leads, no arrest, and no signs of Nancy.' That is what Pima County Sheriff Chris Nanas just told me last night."

• 1:00:49Speaker 02

  So sadly, it seems like there's a good possibility Nancy's still out there someplace. Let's hope for the best for her.

• 1:00:55Speaker 01

  So more of it as we wrap this case up, obviously, and we said it early on, right? This is a story that is all over the news. It is receiving a ton of attention. And I think by and large, most of that is because Nancy's daughter Savannah is a, is a big star. Let's face it, she has been on, you know, this very big show, The Today Show for many years. She's known to millions of people. That's one of the reasons, right, that this case would receive so much attention.

• 1:01:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, it definitely seems like that was what fueled it. But I think now it's because the, it's so strange, the clues are so strange. Now you've got this creepy video. I think it's sort of grown legs. Well, it was initially, you know, caught the attention of people because her daughter's famous. Now I think the, the case is just taking over the news cycle because of all the strange clues and strange twists and, and the daily things that are coming to light. It's almost like a soap opera playing out in real time and people are just interested in it.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  We do have some interesting aspects. You know, first of all, the Footage captured of the person who I think we all believe may be Nancy's abductor. What's with the, the full backpack? It kind of makes it seem like the person is not there to rob. And it seems very likely that Nancy Guthrie was abducted. And then you have, you know, these ransom demands, some proven to be hoaxes. Others I don't think have been confirmed. There's just so much going on, Morph.

• 1:02:51Speaker 02

  And there's another strange thing is, you know, why did this happen? Is it a pre-planned abduction? Did he go there with some other intent? A home invasion and something went wrong and he panicked. It's, it's sort of the unknown that is really interesting. On one hand too, it seems like this person came very prepared. Gloves, ski mask, covered head to toe, only their eyes visible, their mouth. They, they seem to know that they, there's a good chance they would be seen. They have a gun, so you know they, they mean business. They're not just there to scare someone.

• 1:03:36Speaker 02

  It seems like they would possibly use that gun if they needed to. So it seems like there's a lot of prep, but then also there's a very amateur attempt with the shrubbery to hang it over the camera. So it's almost like they knew there would be cameras, but then they're surprised by a camera at the same point. And I imagine now that that video is out there, this person has to be really scared and looking over their shoulder that there's, there's going to be a knock at their door any minute.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the, the camera is a big deal to me because there is this. Thought by people online that, well, why are the police looking so hard? It seems that, you know, Annie and Tomaso, they've done so many searches in around their home, their neighbors' properties. Okay, what do they know that they are not revealing to the public? But then you have this doorbell camera and you would think anyone connected closely with Nancy would know that that camera was there and would either not try to enter

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  the home by the front door, maybe they would pick the back door. So in a way, I don't know, it almost seems like this person wasn't prepared for that and improvised. I'm not sure, Morf, what to make of it.

• 1:05:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's definitely a little bit of a clash here. It seems like on one hand, they, they were prepared. On the other hand, they were surprised. So I wonder if they had cased this home out or had been there in some capacity, whether it's as a delivery person or as a guest, whatever it might be. And they forgot about that, that particular camera. Just fascinating. But one thing that I have a theory on that jumped out to me was the first instance where we know that person's at the doorstep is at 1:47 a.m. And that's when the, you know, the, the doorbell seemed, the door cam, call it cam, Nest cam, seemed

• 1:05:44Speaker 02

  to go offline. And I think that could be the point where he's fooling around with it and literally yanks it off the law and takes it with him when, when he flees. But what I find interesting is that 27 minutes later, 2:12, the security system again detects a person at the front door, although the, there's no video because by this point he's ripped the camera down. I think what he did, and this is just my theory, is that at 1:47, he yanked that camera down and he probably went to hide out to see if police came, to see if it would set off some, some kind of alarm. Because I know with different alarm systems, if you interfere with them, if you try and

• 1:06:29Speaker 02

  You know, destroy them. They're they're built to trigger, you know, someone to come out for the alarm company to call the police and send someone out. So I have a hunch that this person went over, watched from a distance to see if police came. And after, you know, 27 minutes, he didn't see any police. He said, Okay, I feel safe now. I can go back and enter the house. And that's why at 212, it detects that person at the door again. So I I tend to think that's what happened. That he was hanging out, waiting to see if police would respond.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting theory. But that's what we're dealing with right now, right? Or theories, speculation, because we don't know. The police don't know. So we don't know. But the one thing I do know is that this is a case that we're going to be following. Many people are going to be following. And hopefully, there is a break that comes sooner than later. I mean, my hope is obviously that they can recover Nancy a lot and unharmed. But unfortunately, I feel like the longer that this goes on, the less likely that is.

• 1:07:49Speaker 01

  I hate to say that. But I think that's the truth.

• 1:07:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, there's no doubt that, again, we mentioned because of her medication, that not having that medicine could be fatal for her. And being all these days out now, who knows if she's gotten sick, or, again, she was hurt during the abduction. We know that because of the blood. So she could have been sustained injuries there that that wouldn't have been good for her. So. You know, time will tell, but you know, if this person wanted something, they haven't clearly communicated with the family. If it was some kind of ransom or they wanted something returned for Nancy, they provided no proof of life. They've, you know, we've had these mystery ransoms, but we don't know if any of them were from the actual doctor.

• 1:08:38Speaker 02

  So what does this person want? That's the, the key takeaway for me is the remaining question is, why did he do this? And what's his end goal?

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  But I think a lot of people are assuming that Nancy was the target because of her famous daughter. But what if that's not the case, Morf? What if this person had no idea that this woman, Nancy, who lived there, his daughter was a famous TV celebrity and only found that out after the fact? Is that possible?

• 1:09:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. And then, you know, we, we have the, the fact that this person took her from the house. If it was simply, you know, if he didn't know that she was the mother of somebody famous, and it wasn't about a ransom, maybe he went there just for a home burglar, even though the bag was full, or he was going to do a home invasion. But the unusual part is that he chose to take Nancy with him. So that to me, you know, that seems like more of a work for him to try and get away with a, you know, a elderly lady in tow that can't move around good. It's going to slow him down and make it more likely for him to be caught. And then

• 1:09:54Speaker 02

  he has to presumably, if she's okay, or he's going to try and keep her alive, he has to take care of her, keep her someplace. That's even more of a commitment on his part. So, you know, it's going to be interesting to see if she's found, if she's okay, how she was treated and what this person did to try and keep her alive. Because if she dies, this person's facing a murder charge as opposed to a kidnapping, which is already serious enough.

• 1:10:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, just all things that hopefully we will get answers to down the road. But that's it for our episode on Nancy Guthrie. As always, if you love the show and you haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, leave us a rating, a review. Also, keep telling your friends. Word of mouth about the podcast really helps us out.

• 1:10:43Speaker 02

  If you want to find us on social media, we're on every major platform. Just search for Criminology Podcast on your favorites. You can also find news, old episodes, and more about the show on criminologypodcast.com. And if you want to join a discussion group about the show and the cases we discuss, head over to Facebook and search for Criminology Podcast Discussion and Fans.

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  So that's it for another episode of Criminology, but Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night with a brand new episode. So until then, for Mike.

• 1:11:14Speaker 02

  And Morph.

• 1:11:15Speaker 01

  We'll talk to you next week.

• 1:11:16Speaker 02

  Take care, everyone.