Thomas Perez Jr.

On the night of August 8th, 2018, Thomas Perez Jr. of Fontana, CA called the Fontana Police Department to report that his father, Thomas Perez Sr., had been missing for about seventeen hours. Join Mike and Morf as they discuss Thomas Perez Jr. Thomas caught the attention of the police by the way he was acting when they arrived. They also discovered that bleach had been used inside the house, blood in the house, and his father's mattress had been removed, as had some of his clothing. You can help support the show through Patreon. We'd love to connect with listeners on social media. We are available on the following platforms: Facebook - Facebook Discussion group - Instagram - Threads - X Formerly Twitter - Blue Sky - Twitch - Tik Tok Criminology is an Emash Digital production hosted by Mike Ferguson and Mike Morford.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Criminology is a true crime podcast that may contain discussion about violent or disturbing topics. Listener discretion is advised.

• 0:37Speaker 01

  Hello everyone and welcome to episode 403 of the Criminology Podcast. I'm Mike Ferguson.

• 0:42Speaker 02

  And this is Mike Morford.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  Mr. Morford, how's your week going, buddy?

• 0:46Speaker 02

  Uh, so far, so good. How you doing?

• 0:48Speaker 01

  I'm doing great. You know, the weather here is up and down. It's 30, it's 75. So that kind of plays havoc on the old, uh, sinuses, you know, a little bit, but, uh, you can tell that spring is peaking, right? I mean, spring, we just hit spring, but the warmer weather is just around the corner.

• 1:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, before you know it, you'll be sweating and wishing it was cold again.

• 1:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, not snow cold, but maybe not 95. All right, let's go ahead and give our Patreon shout outs. We had one this week and that's Patrick Erickson, but that's great new support and we really appreciate it.

• 1:26Speaker 02

  Patrick, thank you so much. That means a lot. And for anyone else that wants to help support the show, head over to patreon.com/criminology to get signed up.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  All right, Mor, if it's time to jump into this week's case, you know, we've covered a lot of cases over the years that leave listeners angry, angry about the circumstances, angry over the people involved, and sometimes angry about the levels of incompetency of the people involved in solving the crimes, or just their flat out arrogance and disregard for the truth. This week's case may top that list as far as the ordeal that one man named Thomas Perez Jr. went through and what he had to endure. Just a word of warning for our pet loving listeners, we Do have to talk about some threats against a beloved pet dog, but rest assured,

• 2:15Speaker 01

  the dog wasn't actually harmed. It's just a very important piece of this story. And you know, one thing that I've learned more of, and I'm sure you have too, is our listeners are pet lovers. I mean, the majority, I mean, 99% it seems like. They love their pets and stories involving pets being hurt can really be tough for many listeners.

• 2:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you're an animal loving family. So are we. So we get it. We certainly understand that.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  So we did want to throw out that warning, but it's important for people listening. Don't turn the podcast off because the, the dog is not actually harmed. It's just, like I said, a very important part of the story that has to be talked about.

• 3:09Speaker 02

  On the night of August 8th, 2018, Thomas Perez Jr. Of Fontana, California, called the Fontana Police Department to ask if there had been any reports of an elderly man, perhaps walking around somewhere lost or confused because his father, Thomas Perez Senior, had been missing for about 17 hours. At the time, the father and son were living together about 50 miles from Los Angeles. Thomas Jr., who is 53 years old, had gone through a divorce and moved back in with Thomas Senior, who liked his independence and didn't want to move into an assisted living facility. So the two living together was ideal and helpful for both of them.

• 3:47Speaker 01

  On August 7th, the previous night, Thomas Senior, who was 71 years old, had taken his dog for a walk somewhere between 9:30 and 10 and never returned. It was supposed to be a quick walk to check the mail, but it was taking too long. What was most worrisome though, is that it was clear that it wasn't just an unexpectedly long walk. The dog named Margosha, or Margot, as they called her, was a lab retriever mix, which Thomas Junior had raised since she was a puppy.

• 4:20Speaker 01

  But Thomas senior didn't. And it wasn't just an extended visit with one of his neighbors, many of whom he was friends with. He was gone overnight and then all day the next day. Thomas junior was getting really worried. So at around 2:30 PM, he called to try to check with the police department and see if his dad had wandered off or gotten hurt.

• 4:42Speaker 02

  From pretty much the moment Thomas junior made that call, officers felt that there was more to the situation. 17 hours, especially overnight hours, is a long time for an elderly person to be missing without their loved ones, especially loved ones who live in the same home, to not worry and take action. It seems more likely that if your elderly father, who was beginning to show signs of dementia, went out with the dog at night and only the dog returned, you would immediately start looking for him. At least that's what the police thought. A lot of people might think the worst that maybe a fall or hit run somewhere in the neighborhood. When officers arrived at the home to get more information about Thomas senior, they felt things were a little bit off.

• 5:23Speaker 02

  According to the guardian.com, Officer Joanna Pena felt that Thomas was acting distracted and unconcerned with his father's disappearance. Even his behavior during his call to the non emergency number seemed suspicious. She would later say in a court deposition, he didn't seem very worried about his father missing, and he kept rambling off to different topics that was not about the missing person report.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  And you know, for me and so many of these cases that we do, the person who calls in to make a report, it's interesting to dissect their behavior. You know, when police come out, they start to interview the person, you know, their actions, their demeanor. I think it's important to, you know, take a look at it now. Oftentimes, in some of these cases, you have people online kind of making wild theories, right, as to what it means as far as the way someone is acting. And I know we've said it before, Morph, but people act differently. They react differently to different situations.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  So, I mean, it's hard to just come out and flat out say that this person is hiding something or they're not acting the way they should be because, you know, let's face it, not everybody reacts the same way, but it's still fascinating to sit and analyze someone's actions.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't think there's a cookie cutter way of reacting to stressful situations or things you're concerned with. Some people are calmer than other people. You know, some people show a lot of emotions. Some people are very stoked and don't show any. I will say, you know, if it was my loved one that went out and only the dog came back, especially if they were elderly, sick, or whatever that situation might be, I don't think I would wait that long. I'd at least be looking around, maybe driving out, asking neighbors to maybe keep an eye out. I think I would have sprang into action a little bit sooner.

• 7:32Speaker 02

  So, you know, to be fair, from the police standpoint, that does seem to me to be a little bit of a long period to wait to get started with saying your dad's missing.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I'm right there with you. I feel as though the dog coming back is a more worrisome aspect of the whole situation, right? If neither one comes back, then, well, maybe you could make the argument that they went to go visit somebody or, you know, whatever. You can make some different arguments, but the dog coming back without the owner, I think adds a... Another element to it, also factor in, you know, that he is in his seventies, apparently has some age-related, you know, issues with maybe early onset dementia

• 8:25Speaker 01

  or something like that. I think you have to factor all of that in. My level of concern would be, I think, much greater than what we're seeing out of Thomas Jr. But I will tell you this, in these cases, my mind always goes back to Chris Watts. I don't know why, but more if I know you remember it, you know, his interview, initial kind of interviews when he was at his home and the police come out, they start to talk to him. People online, very early on in that case, they were so quick to point out that it just didn't seem right. Now, they turned out to be correct. People have done that in other cases,

• 9:09Speaker 01

  many other cases as well, and it turns out not to be correct, right? There are suspicions, but the Chris Watts case always jumps out at me because people were spot on very quickly with his demeanor, something being wrong with it.

• 9:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. And one thing you mentioned was the fact that you'd be concerned that, especially because the dog came back alone, I've can remember several cases we've covered over the years where a dog came back on their own and it was never a good outcome. So, right away when you said that, I'm thinking, okay, this, this could turn out to be bad.

• 9:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Lacey Peterson case kind of jumps out at me there specifically, you know, centered around the, the dog coming back. It wasn't just Officer Pena that felt something was off. Fontana Police Department Chief Mark Dorsey later wrote in a police statement, "We noticed the house and particularly the father's bedroom was in disarray. The home was in the middle of being renovated when Thomas Senior disappeared, but apparently that explanation didn't cut it." According to Chief Dorsey, Thomas Jr. even told them that he had recently gotten rid of his father's mattress, donated some of his clothes to Goodwill and had used bleach to clean the home.

• 10:31Speaker 02

  You threw something up just now where you said it was in disarray. According to the police chief, you know, there's times when my house is in disarray. I've got two kids. They make a mess. We're constantly cleaning up. We're telling them to clean up. We've had work done on the house recently, so there's stuff being moved around. So if somebody came into my house during that process, they might say, oh, the house is in disarray. That doesn't automatically mean something happened nefarious. You know, there could be explanations for it. And, you know, according to what we know here, there was work going on in the home.

• 11:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, people donate clothes to Goodwill, right? All the time. I'm sure some people use bleach to clean their home. But the mattress does kind of stand out to me because, okay, it was recently gotten rid of. But how many people get rid of their mattress without having a new one to take its place? So if it's just gone and there's nothing there to replace it, that to me seems strange. I mean, I think you can't take just one thing, right? In a vacuum and say, oh, this is pointing towards something very bad. But you can take everything in its entirety and kind of say, well, this stuff just isn't adding up.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  And I think that's what police were doing.

• 11:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think because now they've got the extended time that he waited to report his dead missing. They have him sort of not seeming concerned in their opinion. And now you have a missing mattress. So, you know, things are starting to maybe pop in their mind that, hey, we need to check this out. Thomas Jr. Was taken to the police station for further questioning. Because he had called them for help, was trying to cooperate with them to find his father. He voluntarily went to the station. He would be questioned for the next 17 hours with no attorney to represent or advocate for him. Meanwhile, investigators worked hard to find evidence of the crime they believe happened.

• 12:36Speaker 02

  At first, Thomas tried to think of places that officers could search or people they could contact. But investigators didn't bother to check any of these places or get in touch with any of the people he named.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  So what does that tell you, Morf? And for me, it's one of two things. Either. They're not doing their job because they're not checking into those things. And you can make that case either way, or they've already kind of narrowed in on him. And maybe you could call that tunnel vision. But I think by this point, they're really honing in on Thomas Jr.

• 13:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I understand they want to do their due diligence. And if things he's saying aren't adding up, or they're just getting a gut feeling that something's off, you know, maybe pursue that. But on the other hand, there's nothing clear here that indicates that anything that first happened, that Thomas Jr. Did anything? No physical evidence, they haven't found a body, you know, that kind of stuff. So, you know, I hate to see them do a rush to judgment at the same time.

• 13:43Speaker 01

  A dog belonging to a sheriff's volunteer, not an official canine officer, was brought to the press home to try to find some kind of scent trail. It did end up alerting and indicating the presence of human remains in one of the bedrooms upstairs. Photographs were taken of reddish brown stains at the bottom of the staircase and on one of the lower steps. Investigators felt that these stains were blood and backed up the dog's alert. There were what appeared to be smaller blood stains throughout the house. Officers used Blue Star to try to illuminate blood, but it will also react to certain foods and chemicals. So if there is a presumptive positive from Blue Star,

• 14:26Speaker 01

  a sample needs to be taken and analyzed to make sure that it's really human blood. Despite not having results from these tests, investigators believe this indicated some type of struggle. Thomas Jr. Blamed the tiny blood spots on his father's diabetes. He had to prick his fingers to check his blood sugar quite often. It's also important to note that with a home being renovated, it's possible that a lot of the reaction was actually to the chemicals and paint and other materials.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  According to KTLA.com, a neighbor who saw the commotion unfolding spoke to investigators and told them that Thomas Jr. Was quote mentally unstable. The neighbor also mentioned that he often seemed frustrated with his father. Thomas Jr. Admitted that he and his father had recently argued over the home renovations. It was 4:41 in the morning when an officer swabbed Thomas's cheek to take a DNA sample. Shortly after this, it was time for a shift change. Detectives David Janus and Kyle Guthrie took over the interrogation from Detective Robert Miller.

• 15:31Speaker 01

  So Morph, one of the things that strikes me here is, yeah, they are suspicious of Thomas Jr. I don't think there's any doubt about that, but he's also, you know, very cooperative. You know, he voluntarily comes down to talk to them. He's giving a cheek swab. He hasn't hired an attorney. He's at this point acting like, you know, he's trying to be helpful in finding his father. The detectives took Thomas for a drive around town, stopping at spots which they deemed relevant to their investigation. A coffee shop, a clothes donation bin, where they told him that his father's clothing had been found.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  New home build sites that were still under construction with plenty of empty dirt lots where a body could be quickly buried. They even took him to a golf course to see if it jogged his memory. When they got near the pond on the course, Thomas apparently asked, don't bodies float? Despite the fact that authorities had not tracked down Thomas Senior yet, they told Thomas Jr. That they had found his body. They claimed he had been stabbed to death. They also told Thomas that they knew he was responsible for his father's murder. No matter how many times he denied it, the detectives interrogating him just didn't believe his story.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  According to People Magazine, during the interrogation, Detective Kyle Guthrie told Thomas Jr. It did happen. It did happen. You killed him and he's dead. You know, you killed him. You're not being honest with yourself. How can you sit there and say you don't know what happened?

• 17:13Speaker 02

  Video footage from the interrogation shows Thomas sobbing, scratching himself, tearing out his own hair and pulling on his shirt until it ripped. He had been prescribed medication for high blood pressure and for anxiety. And during that 17 hour interrogation, he went without it, even though he says he asked detectives for his medication. But one of the detectives actually told him that the meds were the reason he couldn't remember killing his own father, saying, "That medication you're taking has caused you, Thomas, to have some issues." They added, "The medication, it took over and we need to find daddy right now." One of the detectives asked Thomas if he stabbed his father and Thomas replied, "I didn't think that I did."

• 17:55Speaker 02

  It seemed like Thomas Jr. might be on the brink of confessing to his father's murder and police were not about to let up.

• 18:02Speaker 01

  So I think we have to dissect this a little bit more. I mean, we have talked about police, you know, kind of possibly having tunnel vision, thinking Thomas Jr. did it. I think we're at the point now where to them, at least, there's no doubt he did it. They're, they're going through that exercise of, you know, basically saying, "We know you did it. Tell us what you did." But to me, you know, his response is strange. If somebody told me, "You stabbed your father." I don't believe that my response would be, "I didn't think that I did." I'm pretty sure I would be emphatic, "No, you're wrong. I didn't do it."

• 18:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, that seems to be what I would think too. But I, you know, we all know that in stressful situations, long interrogations, maybe without breaks, in this case, he didn't have medications. It might cause someone to say something that they didn't mean to say, or they misworded it, or they sometimes just start to doubt what's even true and get confused, that kind of stuff. We see, we've seen that in so many instances.

• 19:19Speaker 01

  Well, let's not forget, 17 hours of being interrogated is a very long time. And you're right, people have- Said things just to kind of get out of that room. And in some cases, actually admitted to crimes that they didn't really commit. Just because they were, they're tired, they're tired of being interrogated and they wanted it to stop. Losing weight on your own can feel like a fight you keep losing. Weight loss by Hers offers access to the FDA approved Wegovy pill and the Wegovy pen. Wegovy is the first ever GLP-1 weight loss medication available in a pill. And it also comes as a pen. So you've got options.

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• 21:06Speaker 01

  Investigators allowed Thomas to speak with his friend and business partner Carl Peraza. But it was clear that they expected Carl to help extract information from Thomas, not be there to offer his support. Carl later stated in a deposition, the officers indicated that what they needed me to do most was try to get an exact location of where Tom not only buried his father, but also to confess that he murdered his father. They went into some detail as to They had overwhelming evidence with blood everywhere. They told Carl that Thomas Jr. was going to be detained for murder and that they had video footage of Thomas disposing

• 21:49Speaker 01

  of bloody clothing. So when he finally got to talk to someone he knew, he didn't get a reality check or comfort. When Carl spoke to Thomas Jr. In the interrogation room, Carl told him how strong the police case was against him, saying it's blood everywhere in the garage, in the truck. But after Carl left the room, he learned that investigators only had circumstantial evidence, which changed everything for him. Carl said in his statement, I wanted to go in and let Tom know after I just drove him to try to confess that it was circumstantial, not overwhelming as I was told. But Carl Perez wasn't allowed

• 22:31Speaker 01

  back into the interrogation room and Thomas Jr. Was on his own.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  Police didn't let up with their pressure on Thomas Jr. One of the detectives even warned Thomas that he could be on the hook financially for the bogus search for his father, potentially facing up to a million dollars in restitution would likely scare anyone. With Thomas still claiming he didn't kill his father, detectives decided to try to tug at his heartstrings. They brought his dog, Margot, into the interrogation room and told him that they knew Margot had been in the home when the murder occurred and that she had even witnessed it and walked through Thomas senior's blood, leaving bloody paw prints. They told Thomas that Margot had been traumatized and was suffering from depression and would have to be euthanized. Thomas got down on the floor of the interrogation

• 23:17Speaker 02

  room and started hugging and petting Margot. As if Thomas Jr. Hadn't been through enough, now he was facing his dog being euthanized. Thomas, pinpointing the moment he fully broke down, told CNN, I was still hanging on, dealing with that loss until they told me they were going to kill my dog too. Margot was then removed from the interrogation room and taken to a shelter in another county and surrender is a stray.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  And more if we all know that police can lie. Right? There are Supreme Court rulings and things that allow them to do that. But to me, there, there's a point where, okay, it's one thing to kind of mislead someone. Say they have certain evidence when maybe they don't and trying to get a confession to saying that they're going to euthanize your dog. I mean, at a point, you really start to feel for Thomas Jr., right? If he didn't really have anything to do with his dad's disappearance, you feel bad for the guy.

• 24:23Speaker 02

  And all the cases we've covered, I've never heard of the police bringing in people that aren't investigators or attorneys into an interrogation room. But here they brought in not only his friend, but his dog. I don't think I've ever heard of that happening before. And, you know, they're trying to use that to, to weigh on him. And if you're already upset and have been through everything he's been through, I can't even imagine as a, as a pet owner, someone now having my dog in front of me saying, listen, we're going to have to euthanize your dog as a result of something that you know you didn't do.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  And this was the point where Thomas Jr. seems to have been broken. He blurted out, I'm sorry, dad. I had no idea. I love you. Even though he said he had no inkling of where his dad was or what happened and didn't actually admit to doing anything, detectives took his apology as a confession that he had killed Thomas Senior. Thomas then apparently began talking aloud to his sister who wasn't in the room. He said, I didn't mean to take your daddy away. I have no idea. I still don't understand. Thomas then threw up into the trash can in the room, but the detectives thought that this was just theatrics.

• 25:45Speaker 01

  They left him alone in the interrogation room when they went to go write their reports and inform their supervisors that they were done and that Thomas had confessed. It was during that brief time that according to Thomas Jr., he tried to take his own life by hanging himself with his shoestrings, but it was unsuccessful.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Detective Janice's written report described Thomas walking them through the entire thing and that he clearly confessed to the murder. Detective Janice wrote, Thomas said he grabbed a pair of scissors and went over to the couch and stabbed his dad. He said if he was enraged, he probably stabbed him a lot. Thomas said after his dad was stabbed, his dad went upstairs to the bathroom. Thomas heard him fall, so he went up there and saw his dad lying on the ground of the bathroom, not waking up. He said he slapped him in the face a few times, but he still wouldn't wake up. Thomas's dog came into the bathroom, and so he tried getting the dog out of the bathroom because there was blood everywhere. Once he got the dog out, he then wrapped up his dad's body in the green shower curtain

• 26:51Speaker 02

  and transported his body down the stairs and into the garage. He then put his dad's body into the back of his truck.

• 26:57Speaker 01

  And I said earlier, Morf, that it's fascinating to analyze, you know, what someone says, let's say, in their initial kind of interview, maybe at their home or whatever with police. But this is equally fascinating, maybe even more so because, you know, they have spent a lot of time with Thomas. We said he was interrogated for like 17 hours. And this statement specifically has to be analyzed because the words Thomas said, they hold a lot of weight. But if you pay close attention to the words and phrases, like if he was enraged and he

• 27:38Speaker 01

  probably stabbed him a lot, you know, those are not the words of someone confessing to a murder. They sound to me like hypothetical scenarios. The story that Thomas Senior was stabbed downstairs and then walked upstairs to the bathroom and then collapsed conveniently explains how there were reddish brown stains at the base of the stairs, but a potential cadaver dog hit upstairs. It also fits with the neighbor's claim that Thomas Senior's truck was parked in a different way than usual and that it looked like there was something in the bed, leading to the possibility of it being a body. It really pulled kind of every piece of evidence together.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  By this point, police had everything stacked against Thomas Jr. And he was rightfully terrified of the situation. There was just one big problem. Thomas Senior was alive and well.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  It turns out that the first evening Thomas senior was gone. He had taken the train to his brother's house in Los Angeles. After that visit, he took a bus to see a friend of his. From there, he planned to see his daughter. He had been at Los Angeles International Airport, waiting for a flight to visit his daughter in Oakland. When she saw his missing poster on the news and contacted the Fontana Police Department to inform them. He had voluntarily left the house the night before, but left his wallet and phone behind by accident. Airport police found him and he was safe.

• 29:07Speaker 01

  Well, that's a big wrinkle in the story, right? I mean detectives have already written it up. That Thomas junior has confessed to killing his dad. But his dad is found alive and well. And I can't help but think more of, you know, in a lot of the unsolved cases we do. We talk about what people leave behind. And to me, very often, I think it's troubling when people leave behind their purse, their wallet, cellphone, you know, things like that. It doesn't seem normal that somebody would leave those things behind if they're going off voluntarily. But that's exactly what we see happen here.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  He just forgot them.

• 29:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, you would think too, with him, Thomas senior being found, that everything's going to come to a halt here and they're going to realize the error of their ways and apologize and say, okay, you can leave now, but as you're about to discuss, that's not what happened.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, even though this was no longer a missing persons case and certainly not a murder case since Thomas senior was alive and well. No one told Thomas junior. He was still in custody and police were still trying to pry more information from him. According to Thomas junior's attorney, once detectives learned that they had made a monumental mistake. They had Thomas Jr. Placed on an involuntary psychiatric hold. He wasn't read his rights until he was being transported to the hospital. Thomas Jr. Would later say in a court document, they left me in that mental anguish. And to just suffer continually, I suffered that way for three days.

• 30:52Speaker 01

  It was actually put into Thomas's file at the hospital, not to let him speak to anyone. Because he was still technically in police custody. His father tried to call him several times, but couldn't get through. Until finally, one of the nurses told him that his dad was on the phone.

• 31:09Speaker 02

  For days, Thomas Jr. Thought that his father was dead. He also thought his beloved dog, Margot, had been euthanized. He wasn't released from the hospital and from police custody until the afternoon of August 13th. Nearly four days after Thomas Senior had been located. Thomas was feeling like he couldn't handle what was going on. Not because he was actually experiencing suicidal ideations in his everyday life. But because of what happened to him at the hands of police. So perhaps the temporary hospital stay was warranted. He was experiencing a pretty severe and traumatic stressor. He'd been told his father was dead, brutally murdered, actually. And then he was responsible for everything. Even though he couldn't remember anything, not a murder, not a cleanup, not hiding his father's body. Nothing.

• 31:54Speaker 02

  It's not hard to see how this kind of ordeal could break Thomas Jr.'s will and his spirit.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  And we said from the very beginning, Morth, that this is the type of case that was going to make people angry. And I'm telling you right now, I'm angry. I understand that, you know, police can go to certain lengths. To try to solve cases, to try to get a confession. But this to me is so far over the line. I just can't believe that this would happen to somebody. I'm trying to put myself in this, you know, position, but I can't because it seems so far fetched that this story doesn't even seem real, but it is.

• 32:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, and anyone can make a mistake, you know, everybody's human, even the police and.

• 32:44Speaker 02

  Once they realized that their theory wasn't right, that Thomas Senior was alive, they could have ended this at that point and said, okay, we messed up. We made a mistake. Let's make this right and apologized and set the wheels in motion to, to get Thomas Junior out of there. But you know, that the fact they tried to double down and keep going down that avenue, that's what I have a real problem with.

• 33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that's a good point, right? Everybody can make a mistake, but to me, it's what do you do after you learn that you've made a mistake? Do you apologize? Do you try to set things right? Or do you just double down as though you didn't make a mistake at all? And I think that's where things really go off the rails. So, you know, we kind of have to ask, how did things get this far? How and why did detectives go to these lengths? One detective told the LA Times, "We had been with Mr. Perez all day and we were running out of things to say to him to try to get the answer. We used a ruse to elicit certain

• 33:54Speaker 01

  information that is perfectly legal under the law and it's perfectly legal under the policies and procedures of the Fontana Police Department." In a statement on Facebook, Fontana's Chief of Police Mark Dorsey wrote, "In situations like these, it is acceptable and perfectly legal to use different tactics and techniques, such as ruses, to elicit information from people suspected of potential criminal activity." And he admitted that that was done in this case in order to gain resolution. Chief Dorsey also offered an explanation as to why the investigation immediately focused on Thomas Junior, even though he had called

• 34:37Speaker 01

  them for help in the first place. He said, "I can recall a local case in the past that had similar circumstances and the investigators were able to recover the murdered victim hidden by the same individual reporting the victim missing." It is sort of common for perpetrators to insert themselves into investigations, but as we know now, that's not what happened here. So, you know, let's talk about his statement a little bit. It is legal. Right for police to use ruses and things like that to lie. And sometimes it does turn out that the person who is reporting the crime is the person who actually committed it. It's true.

• 35:22Speaker 01

  The perpetrators often like to insert themselves into investigations. Those are things that we all know. But I don't think that this statement adequately explained the links they went to. Kind of as you said, more, some of the stuff they did would be okay up to a point. But once they knew that, you know, Thomas senior was alive, there's no doubt that the stuff they did after that was way over the line. And you could argue some of the other stuff before that was over the line, but certainly the stuff after that.

• 35:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, there has to be some kind of line where you go too far. You stop, you don't keep going there, especially when evidence comes to light that what you thought was the case is not the case. You know, we have someone that you thought is murdered. They're alive. You know, they're alive. You find out what happened to them, but you still continue down this path almost with blinders on. And I don't know if it's a pride thing or what happened, but I mean, it just, it feels like there was just no let up here and they were going to go down this, this path. And I think it's irresponsible.

• 36:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm right with you there.

• 36:44Speaker 02

  Thomas junior wasn't just reunited with his dad, Thomas senior, but thankfully he was also reunited with his dog, Margot. She had been microchipped and the shelter in Riverside County she was sent to was able to get in touch with the Perez's and they picked her up and took her home. She sadly had suffered a torn ligament at some point and had to undergo surgery, but she too was happy to be back at home. When a lot of people discuss this case online, they understandably get upset by the details, but it's Margot's involvement that really seems to set people off. The fact that police tried to use her and threaten her to get Thomas junior to confess to something he didn't do is a step too far for most people.

• 37:24Speaker 01

  You would think at this point, the Fontana PD realizing a massive blunder would want to close the door on this case and let it fade away. But that's not what happened. Because of the cadaver dog hitting and the potential blood stains, investigators refused to give up on the Perez home as a crime scene. On August 15th, Detective Miller applied for another search warrant, writing, "It's believed by myself and other detectives involved in this investigation that there is a possible victim that has not yet been located." This request for a warrant was asking permission to place a GPS tracker on Thomas's vehicle,

• 38:07Speaker 01

  but the further investigation was a waste of time. There was no crime committed, no missing victim, and eventually, police interest in Thomas died down.

• 38:17Speaker 02

  Looking back at the ordeal he went through, Thomas Jr. understands how he ended up confessing to something he didn't do. He said in a deposition, "I start to absorb this false belief that they put together. I'm accepting it as a truth." In August 2019, a year after his ordeal, Thomas Jr. filed a federal civil lawsuit against the city of Fontana for grievances including due process violations, inflicting emotional distress, unlawful search, excessive force, and false imprisonment. There was also a question as to whether any evidence was planted by investigators. A photograph taken at the Perez home shows multiple round spots of blood, almost like fingerprints, on the door between the kitchen and the garage.

• 39:01Speaker 02

  Body cam footage from when an officer was inside the home, speaking to Thomas Jr., though, shows a door that doesn't appear to have any blood stains on it. It was from a different angle, further away, without the flash on, so it's hard to say for sure. Thomas Jr.'s attorney, Jerry Stirring, told CBS, "After I watched the video and watched the interrogation of Tom Perez, what I divined is that they could get you and I to confess to killing Abe Lincoln if they wanted to."

• 39:28Speaker 01

  There are certain interrogation techniques like the read technique that are known to be likely to produce false confessions. The read technique was used in a few big cases that you may recognize like the West Memphis Three and the Central Park Five. Cornell Law School in an article titled "A Call to Eradicate the Read Technique: An Alternative to Deceptive Interrogations" explains that the read technique teaches law enforcement to start with an assumption of guilt and rely on their ability to detect deception through nonverbal behavior like fidgeting and avoiding eye contact. We aren't sure if detectives use this technique on Thomas Jr., but it's not a stretch to imagine

• 40:13Speaker 01

  that a worried, hungry, unmedicated, sleep deprived person, especially one who's being told he had murdered his own father and may not even remember doing it, may not make the most normal amount of eye contact or move their body in a normal way. Sure, a guilty person may do things like self-sue because they're afraid to be caught, but wouldn't a person being falsely accused also need to do those things like fidget because they're afraid that no one will believe them. The read technique is also more likely to produce false confessions in people with mental health issues. Thomas was prescribed medication

• 40:54Speaker 01

  for anxiety that he didn't have access to during that interrogation. A lot of the reason that this technique is so successful is that if you just confess, the interrogation will be over. For someone with anxiety, maybe even on the brink of a panic attack, it can feel so intense that you think you're really dying. Just confess and maybe it will feel like you can breathe again.

• 41:19Speaker 02

  During his court deposition, Thomas Jr. said, "I never want to be in that kind of place again mentally. I didn't know such a place exists." I think it's a place few of us have truly been and certainly not for the same reasons that Thomas had been thrown in such terrible place mentally. U.S. District Court Judge Dolly G concluded, "A reasonable juror could conclude that the detectives inflicted unconstitutional psychological torture on Thomas Jr." In 2023, Judge G also wrote that their tactics indisputably led to his subjective confusion and disorientation to the point he falsely confessed to killing his father and tried to take his own life.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Detective Guthrie disagreed with the judge, saying in his deposition, "I don't think that the techniques we used on him are the reason why he admitted to killing his father." It's true that law enforcement officers are allowed to lie to suspects, so they didn't do anything illegal there, but this case proves that just because they can lie to people doesn't mean they should, especially about things that they can't be sure of, like the fact that Thomas Senior had been stabbed to death.

• 42:29Speaker 02

  The city of Fontana fought in court for years, and finally, after five years, they agreed to settle with Thomas Jr. as long as they didn't have to admit that they had done anything wrong. Thomas received a payment of nearly $900,000 in the settlement, $898,000 to be exact. Incredibly, it doesn't seem that anyone was even punished over this horrendous situation. Many people were actually promoted. Chief Dorsey was just a lieutenant at the time this happened. Detectives Guthrie and Janice both made the rank of sergeant.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  And we said it upfront, right, Morf, people are gonna be upset about this case, and it is upsetting. And I think you said it perfectly, right? There is a line, and maybe that line is fuzzy, and it's hard for people to know when they've crossed over it, but to me, this case, it's pretty clear cut that that line was crossed.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I get that they paid $900,000 to settle this, but the fact they wanted to make sure they didn't have to apologize or admit to doing anything wrong, that part just makes me mad. And if I was Thomas Jr., I would have tried to fight to have them include an apology in there someplace because it just, it seems like it's the least they could do.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Well, I don't understand it. Why are people so opposed to admitting that maybe they crossed the line, you know? I don't think that's the worst thing in the world to admit that maybe you could have done something or should have done something differently. But I think there are a lot of people, and especially a lot of institutions, that just flat out don't want to admit that they did anything wrong. And maybe legally, they didn't. But there is a distinction, right? Between what's legal and what's, let's say, morally ethical.

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Thomas Jr. and Thomas Sr. still live together in the same house, but their lives have undoubtedly changed since August of 2018. Thomas Jr.'s friend Carl said in court documents of Thomas Jr., he's not the same. Thomas said, "I got to a point where I was afraid to even get the mail anymore." Sadly, his dog, Margot, passed away in February of 2023. Although years have passed since he was put through this hellish ordeal, Thomas Jr. hasn't forgotten it and says the best advice is, "Don't call the cops." That's a pretty bad state of affairs for a guy that did the right thing, originally calling the police when his dad vanished.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  And now he would be afraid to call them if this happened again.

• 45:18Speaker 02

  It's a sad situation all around. It's not even the first case with a false confession that we've covered on the show. Looking back on the case, it's interesting because if Thomas Sr. had been murdered and the police had just told Thomas Jr., "Sorry, there's no reports of an old man wandering around," and they let it go, especially if Thomas Jr. had been responsible, people would likely have been almost as outraged as they are today about the false confession. Knowing that the police found blood and that a cadaver dog had been alerted, people would have wondered why investigators didn't act. They would ask what it took for Thomas Sr. to get justice. It just seems like maybe there should have been a middle ground here between not digging into a crime and talking an innocent person into thinking they may have committed it.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  And we're all for good police work and catching bad guys, but we also hate to see irresponsible and hastily carried out investigations that lead to this kind of situation.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there's no doubt about that. I mean, I do think... You know, police have a tough job. I also think that there's some gray area. But to me, this one crossed the line. You know, I understand that they honed in on him. They thought he was acting strange. They thought he had killed his dad. And they were trying to elicit a confession. I understand that. It happens all the time. But at a certain point, they knew Thomas Senior was alive and well. So the fact that they kept at it after that is what outrages me.

• 46:50Speaker 01

  Not so much what they did before, because I think that happens quite a bit. Now, it's unfortunate when it happens to somebody who's not guilty, who didn't actually do it. But it's also part of what they have to do to solve cases. So, you know, I get that.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, just this case just all the way around frustrates me. You know, because there were some things we talked about when Thomas Junior first came into the police or first made contact with the police, that didn't sit right with them. And, you know, maybe if you are investigators, you you're kind of wondering about, they don't add up. But the lack of a body, the lack of any solid proof that any crime had ever happened. You would think that the brakes would be applied at some point, especially when Thomas Senior was found to be alive and well. And they continued down that path. It just, it makes no sense to me. And it's, it's what makes this case so frustrating.

• 47:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you talk about the brakes being put on. I think they have to be put on once Thomas Senior is found alive. And it's determined that, you know, he voluntarily, you know, went all these places or had travel plans or whatever it was. That's probably the most frustrating part is that they continued to the point where they thought, well, somebody else must have been killed. So they applied for additional search warrants. But it's a fascinating case. You know, it's one of those that, you know, you can dissect and look at different aspects of it.

• 48:32Speaker 01

  From the demeanor of Thomas Junior from the very beginning, right? When he called the police to their actions.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  Before and after finding out that Thomas Sr. Was a lot. It's also one of those cases more of that. I think if you wrote it for like a movie script or a television script, it might be laughable, right? People would say, that doesn't make sense. That would never happen. Well, it did happen. This is real.

• 49:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, certainly not a movie or a story to Thomas Jr. He lived it. And one of the most terrible things that we've mentioned several times in this episode is Margot was almost put to death euthanized because of their beliefs. They sent her to the pound and had, you know, they not been able to find her and bring her home, she might've been put to death. For what? For, for their belief that he had done, committed a crime that he didn't? That's one of the things that, you know, animal lovers, pet lovers would be angered about. And I don't blame people for feeling like that.

• 49:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it, my final analysis is it's just a very frustrating case. No doubt about it. But that's it for our episode on Thomas Perez Jr. As always, if you love the show, but haven't done so yet, take a minute, go out, leave a rating, you can leave a review as well. Also, keep telling your friends. Word of mouth about the podcast really goes a long way.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  If you want to find us on social media, run every major platform to search Criminology Podcast on your favorites. And for news about the show, old episodes and more, head over to our website, criminologypodcast.com. And finally, if you want to join a discussion group about the podcast or the cases we discuss, head over to Facebook and search for Criminology Podcast Discussion and Fans.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  So that's it for another episode of Criminology, but Morph and I will be back with all of you next Saturday night for a brand new episode. So until then for Mike.

• 50:45Speaker 02

  And Morphe.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  We'll talk to you next week.

• 50:47Speaker 02

  Take care everyone.