Pod Insights Criminal Like a Bad Dream About this episode One day in 2011, Lindsey Schweigert’s roommate came home to an open garage, a missing dog, and an overflowing bathtub. Lindsey remembers waking up in police custody.
Ramya Nagesh is the author of A Practical Guide to Insane and Non-Insane Automatism in Criminal Law – Sleepwalking, Blackouts, Hypoglycaemia, and Other Issues.
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Transcript 0:01 Speaker 00 I'm Ina Garten and each week on Happy Hour, I invite new and old friends for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. On this week's episode, I'm joined by Chloé Mal. We talk all about her taking on the top job at Vogue, finding her personal style and her favorite lunch order in the iconic Conde Nast cafeteria. New episodes of Happy Hour are available every Wednesday. You can watch on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Cheers.
0:39 Speaker 01 How much more would you get done with a personal assistant in your pocket?
0:43 Speaker 02 Life's too short to be manually filing insurance claims and being on hold waiting for the lab tests that the doctor did. I don't know, I feel like it's allowing me to show up in ways that I've always wished I could show up. I just am so strapped for time.
0:58 Speaker 01 What we gain and give up when AI agents enter the picture. That's this week on Explain It To Me. Listen to new episodes Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts.
1:15 Speaker 03 Let's talk about the day in March of 2011. Maybe just a very detailed, step by step, what you did that evening, where you'd been, and then what the day had been like.
1:27 Speaker 04 Gosh, I remember it so vividly. So I had actually, the night before, I had returned from a trip at the Pentagon where I was working on a large project with the government. I was jet lagged, I was exhausted. I'd gotten in really late. So the next day, I remember sleeping in. I remember doing some things around the house. And then I went to fill my prescription. After I did that, I remember making myself a nice dinner.
1:56 Speaker 03 Lindsey Schweigert lived in a house in St. Louis. After dinner, she says she went to bed early, around 8:00 PM. Lindsay's roommate got home a few hours later.
2:07 Speaker 04 First thing he noticed was that my garage was up and the car was gone. I never left my garage up, ever. You could get right into the house that way. It was late at night. I would never do that. Second thing he noticed, the dog was gone. And then, he went into the bathroom and the water in the bathtub was overflowing. I am not a bath person. I cannot tell you the last time I've taken a bath.
2:34 Speaker 03 He thought something might have happened to Lindsay, like she'd been kidnapped. He called the police. And when he called a second time, they told him Lindsay was in jail. Lindsay says the last thing she remembers is falling asleep in her bed. When she woke up, she didn't know where she was.
2:55 Speaker 04 I remember being cold and wet. And then I remember being in the back of the police car in handcuffs.
3:01 Speaker 03 An officer told her she'd been driving and hit another car. Apparently, she'd refused to take a breathalyzer test. And she'd fallen three times when she was instructed to walk in a straight line. It was raining.
3:15 Speaker 04 I don't remember driving. I don't remember getting in my car. I was like, I just went, I went to bed. I mean, I was so out of it. I mean, if you even look at the mugshot from later, my eyes are just, my sweatshirt was on backwards. I was completely disoriented.
3:31 Speaker 03 Lindsay's dog was in the backseat of her car. They were less than a mile away from her house, outside of a Steak and Shake she liked to go to.
3:41 Speaker 04 I remember being frantic with the officer because he said that he's going to send my animal to the dog shelter.
3:49 Speaker 03 He took Lindsay to jail. Who did you call?
3:54 Speaker 04 My brother.
3:55 Speaker 03 And what did you say?
3:57 Speaker 04 I told him I have no idea what just happened to me, but I'm in jail and Tyson is at the dog pound and we have to go save my dog.
4:06 Speaker 03 Lindsay was let out on bail. After her brother picked her up, they found her dog at the pound. They drove back to Lindsay's house. And her roommate told her what he'd seen: the open garage, the bathtub overflowing.
4:22 Speaker 03 Since Lindsay didn't remember what had happened that night, she wondered if at one point she might have had something to drink. She didn't really think so, but she and her roommate checked. They went through the whole house, including the trash, and didn't find any sign that she'd been drinking. But she had taken a sleeping pill.
4:45 Speaker 03 For more than 10 years, Lindsay had been having trouble sleeping. Her doctor prescribed her pills to help. And every so often, the medication would stop helping, and her doctor would switch her prescription. Trazodone, Lunesta, then Ambien, and the generic version of Ambien, Zolpadem.
5:07 Speaker 05 Its warning label does include a long list of potential side effects, kind of in fine print, as they always are on these medications. Under the extremely rare category, the drug now does warn that it can lead to strange behavior and abnormal thinking. And it specifically warns that you might get out of bed while not being fully awake and do an activity you don't know you're doing. The next morning, you may not remember you did anything during the night.
5:34 Speaker 03 I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
5:48 Speaker 03 In November of 1937, an article appeared in a Sunday newspaper magazine called The American Weekly. It described a detective named Robert Ledru, who, 50 years earlier, was sent to a city on the coast of France to investigate a case of sailors who'd gone missing.
6:06 Speaker 05 He arrived there, he went to sleep, and the next day, he went to introduce himself to the local police force. And they said, you know, "Hold the phone. Actually, a far more serious offense has been committed overnight. Somebody has been murdered."
6:19 Speaker 03 Ramya Nagesh is a lawyer in the UK.
6:23 Speaker 03 A man had been found on the beach. He'd been shot. His belongings seemed untouched, so it didn't look like a robbery.
6:31 Speaker 05 There were some footprints found around the beach where this person had been killed, and they took plaster casts of the footprints. And he looked at the footprints and said, oh, these look really familiar. And by all reports, he spent the whole afternoon kind of staring at these footprints, refusing to interview witnesses, and looking more and more troubled. And then he announced he knew who had killed this man and retired to his room. And the next day, the sort of chief of police says, you know, we've recovered the bullet that killed the man. And he says, great, that will be the final bit of evidence I need. So he took the bullet, opens his own revolver, sees that one bullet is missing, and compared them, and said, yes, this is the bullet that fits into the revolver. And he said, I've solved the case. I am the person who killed this man.
7:14 Speaker 05 And he said that he had killed this man, but he had done it whilst asleep.
7:20 Speaker 03 Robert Ledru was put in jail. To make sure it was possible that he could have killed someone in his sleep, the police gave him a gun full of blanks to sleep with. And one night, he got out of bed and shot at a guard, still asleep. The American Weekly reported that he was diagnosed with homicidal somnambulism, caused by overstraining his mind, and that he spent the remaining 50 years of his life on a farm, sleeping in a room with bars, under police supervision.
7:52 Speaker 05 It's a case of the truth being almost stranger than fiction, I think.
7:56 Speaker 03 You know, I've never, I don't think I've ever sleepwalked in my life.
8:02 Speaker 05 I actually, I think that's one of the reasons I got so interested in it. When I was a child, I used to sleepwalk. I used to wake up near the front door with the keys in my hand. So clearly I was trying to escape or something in my sleep. But for over 20 years now, I've had an interest in the relationship between sleepwalking and committing crimes. People can do quite a lot of actions whilst they're asleep. It's not just kind of mindlessly walking around. They can go up and downstairs. They can drive cars and open doors and things like that.
8:37 Speaker 03 In one case, a woman woke up and saw a garden axe sitting on her nightstand. It hadn't been there when she fell asleep.
8:47 Speaker 03 As she was texting her partner, she noticed messages from the night before that she didn't remember, about hearing voices and seeing things and getting the axe from her tool shed for safety.
9:01 Speaker 03 Another time, in Australia, a woman woke up holding a paintbrush and then saw that she had apparently painted her front door in her sleep. There are stories of people waking up to find their furniture rearranged or waking up feeling sick and realizing that during the night they'd eaten raw eggs, even the shells, uncooked rice, cat food, and cigarettes with butter on them.
9:30 Speaker 03 Doctors have described patients who get dressed in things they wouldn't normally wear, going out in 20-degree weather, hardly wearing anything.
9:41 Speaker 03 What's the strangest thing that you've heard of someone doing while asleep?
9:46 Speaker 05 Oh, gosh. I heard of a case where a man would, every night, he was sleeping on the ground floor, their bedroom was on the ground floor. He would lift his wife up and put her outside. So he would open the window, lift his wife up and put her outside in the grass. And she'd wake up in the grass, sort of covered in dew or whatever. And her reaction was simply to put a mattress out there. So that's quite strange.
10:14 Speaker 03 At one time, people who sleepwalked were called noctambulae or night walkers. Some believed that they were possessed.
10:23 Speaker 05 Sleepwalking is something that's been known of for centuries. I mean, anyone who's studied Macbeth in school knows that Macbeth's wife sleepwalked, having been involved in the murder in that play, and was said to kind of wash her hands out of guilt.
10:41 Speaker 03 Quote, "Her eyes are open, but their sense is shut."
10:46 Speaker 05 People sort of had this idea that if you were sleepwalking, you were maybe acting out your dreams.
10:52 Speaker 03 In eighteen fifty-nine, an officer on patrol in London heard yelling coming from an apartment window. It was after one in the morning. It was a woman's voice shouting, "Save my children."
11:05 Speaker 05 He heard a crashing sound and realized someone from the apartment had thrown something through a pane of glass above him. They hadn't opened the window, they'd thrown something through that glass.
11:14 Speaker 03 The woman shouting had thrown one of her children through the window, an eighteen-month-old. The baby was taken to a hospital with head injuries, but survived. The mother was charged with attempted murder.
11:29 Speaker 05 She told police that she'd thought that there was a fire. She'd been dreaming that there was a fire and she was trying to save her family. She had no previous convictions. Everybody said that she was a good mother. And her story that she'd been asleep at the time that she threw her baby out of the window was unheard of in England at the time. So then there was a debate between the prosecution and the judge as to how they should proceed. And the judge wasn't really having any of it at first. He said, "Well, she was probably drunk. If I let her go now," he said, "she might go back to her family and throw another one out."
12:07 Speaker 03 He said, "If I were to allow her to go at large, it would be opening a very wide door. A man might set fire to his house and say it had been done while he was dreaming. It would be a most dangerous plea to establish."
12:22 Speaker 05 But her solicitor pushed for there to be no charge in the case. And eventually, the judge allowed her bail. Ultimately, there was never a trial in the case. And so effectively, her defense had been successful.
12:36 Speaker 03 A grand jury had refused to send the case to trial. It was the first time in the UK, as far as we know, that someone had successfully defended themselves in court by claiming to be asleep. But Ramya Nagesh says most sleepwalking doesn't involve dreaming at all.
12:56 Speaker 05 There is a condition called REM sleep disorder where you can act out your dreams, but that's more rare than sleepwalking, which happens in a different stage of sleep when you're not dreaming. And so people don't tend to act out their dreams.
13:11 Speaker 03 Two scientists, working at the world's first sleep laboratory at the University of Chicago, discovered REM sleep cycles in the 1950s. One of them, Nathaniel Kleitman, had started the lab, and he often experimented on himself. Once, he spent more than a month, 150 feet underground, in a cave with a graduate student, to see how the complete darkness would affect their sleep. Another time, he stayed awake for 180 hours to see what would happen. Since then, scientists have also studied sleepwalking, attributing it to
13:50 Speaker 03 the brain waking up too quickly from a kind of very deep sleep called "slow wave sleep." It also seems genetic.
13:59 Speaker 05 Now, people generally are very aware of it. There was sort of an explosion, if you like, of sleepwalking cases, relatively speaking, in the early 2000s and mid 2000s. And I think that's when it really started becoming something that people realized could lead you to commit crimes and therefore could be a defense.
14:22 Speaker 03 In 1987, a 23-year-old man named Kenneth Parks arrived at a police station in Toronto in the middle of the night. He had blood on his hands and said, "I think I've killed some people."
14:35 Speaker 05 He was a married man. He had a history of sleepwalking. And at the time of the incident in question, he'd been under extreme financial stress.
14:45 Speaker 03 Kenneth Parks had become addicted to betting on horse races. He was losing money and started spending his family's savings and embezzling money at work. He was caught, fired, and had to put the family house up for sale.
15:02 Speaker 03 One day, Kenneth went to a Gamblers Anonymous meeting and made plans to tell his wife's family about the problems he was having. That was a Wednesday. He resolved to tell them on Sunday. The night before, he fell asleep on the couch, watching Saturday Night Live around 1:30 a.m. The next thing he remembered was seeing his mother-in-law's face. He was in her house, 14 miles away. She looked frightened.
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16:36 Speaker 03 If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.com/criminal to start your free trial. That's Shopify.com/criminal. Go to Shopify.com/criminal today to hear your first...
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17:39 Speaker 03 cooler, I think I might try their chai. Maybe mix with a scoop of their coffee flavor. Embrace your salty side. Go to kachava.com and use code CRIMINAL for 15% off your first order. That's kachava spelled K-A-C-H-A-V-A dot com, code CRIMINAL. The Toronto Police started putting together what happened after Kenneth Parks fell asleep on his couch. Here's Ramiya Gesh.
18:08 Speaker 05 He rose from his bed, he walked out of his house, got into his car, and drove 23 kilometers to his parents-in-law's house. Once inside their house, he arms himself with a kitchen knife and he brutally attacked his parents-in-law. By all accounts, he was very close to his parents-in-law. This wasn't one of those sort of stereotypical, you know, jokes where somebody has animosity with their parents-in-law. He was very close with them. And the attack was so severe that actually it left his mother-in-law dead. He'd killed his mother-in-law by stabbing, and his father-in-law did survive but was very badly injured.
18:46 Speaker 03 At the police station, Kenneth became aware of injuries to his hands. He'd cut them very badly during the attack, severing tendons. He was taken to a hospital. An emergency room doctor who saw him noted that he seemed sad, remorseful, and perplexed.
19:07 Speaker 03 At first, doctors thought he might have had a psychotic episode or been on drugs. But he said he only occasionally drank and almost never did drugs. And that night, he did neither. And he didn't have any history of psychosis. Eventually, Kenneth was sent to a sleep specialist. At first, the sleep specialist was skeptical that he could have committed the crime entirely while asleep. But Kenneth had sometimes sleepwalked as a child. Once, he almost went out a window. And sleepwalking ran in the family. In jail, Kenneth's cellmates noticed that he would sometimes sit up in bed with his
19:49 Speaker 03 eyes open, mumbling but unresponsive, seemingly asleep. The jury in the case agreed that Kenneth Parks had been sleepwalking when he killed his mother-in-law. But the judge had to decide whether sleepwalking fell under the defense "not guilty by a reason of insanity" or something else, called "non-insane automatism."
20:14 Speaker 05 Non-insane automatism is effectively when your body is doing something, but your mind isn't in control of it. And an example used in law school is you're driving along in your car, you've got the window down because it's a hot day, you don't have very good air conditioning, and a swarm of bees flies into your car. And they encircle your head so that you lose control and you crash into somebody on the sidewalk. That's an example of what we call non-insane automatism, because your mind isn't in control of what your body's doing, but you're not insane. You're not suffering from a medical condition. So the judge directed the jury at trial that if they were satisfied that he was sleepwalking
20:57 Speaker 05 at the time, they could acquit him entirely. So no punishment, no conviction, on the basis that he was suffering from non-insane automatism. And the jury came back and duly acquitted him.
21:12 Speaker 03 The prosecution appealed and the case went to the Canadian Supreme Court.
21:17 Speaker 05 The Supreme Court considered the matter in some detail and decided that actually the original judge was right. And they set out some principles for considering cases of sleepwalking and how it should be characterized by the courts.
21:33 Speaker 03 The court used a test to determine whether a condition could be considered insanity.
21:39 Speaker 05 There are two aspects to it, and one is whether or not the person poses a continuing danger, and the second is whether or not the cause of the defect is internal or external. And they really kind of focused on the continuing danger aspect because on the medical evidence, Kenneth Parks was highly unlikely to commit such an offence again whilst asleep. And so they said, well, effectively, in shorthand, they said, there's no real point in finding him legally insane and sending him to hospital because there's nothing they can do for him. And so he was fully acquitted and went on to kind of live his life quite quietly after that. But that decision really made shockwaves nationally and internationally because it
22:22 Speaker 05 was the first time in modern history that somebody had committed such a brutal offence and been completely cleared of any responsibility because they'd been asleep. So that's where we're left, and I think that's why it exercises the public imagination so much and the public say, well, hang on a minute, somebody's died here. And we know who did it, but we can't say anything more than that. We can't do anything about it.
22:46 Speaker 03 Ramyan Agesh says that in many cases where someone commits a violent act while sleepwalking, they don't have any history of violence.
22:55 Speaker 05 And secondly, of course, the criminal law is based on punishment and rehabilitation of people who have consciously chosen to do things that are harmful to others or contrary to our kind of societal morals. And the difficulty is in sleepwalking. We lose our ability to control what we're doing.
23:16 Speaker 03 Today, there are experts who work specifically on what some call "sleep forensics", which includes trying to identify the signs of sleepwalking.
23:27 Speaker 05 They will interview the defendant. They will sometimes conduct sleep studies, which is where somebody goes into hospital. They fall asleep in a hospital, they spend the night in hospital, but they're hooked up to all sorts of machines which monitor their breathing, their heart rate, their activity, their brainwaves. And then they determine, based on their history and the sleep study, the likelihood that they could have been sleepwalking at the time. So it's not an easy defence. It's not something that people can just fall onto and say, "Oh, I was asleep."
24:00 Speaker 03 Nine years after Kenneth Parks was first acquitted, a man named Scott Falater, who lived in Phoenix, Arizona, was arrested and charged with murdering his wife, Yarmilla.
24:12 Speaker 03 A neighbour had called 911 during the night. He said he saw Scott Falater throw Yarmilla into the pool in their backyard and hold her head under the water.
24:23 Speaker 03 When police arrived, they found Yarmilla Falater dead in the pool. She'd been stabbed many times. Scott was upstairs. He said he was confused and had just woken up.
24:37 Speaker 03 He said Yarmilla had asked him to fix their pool filter, and that the last thing he remembered was going out to try to fix it at about 9pm. When he came back inside, he said Yarmilla was asleep on the couch, and that he kissed her and went upstairs to sleep.
24:54 Speaker 05 At trial, Scott Falater tried to claim he was sleepwalking. However, prosecution experts said, "Well, there are several things that tend against that."
25:05 Speaker 03 The neighbour had called the police so that he'd noticed Scott Falater motioning at his dog.
25:12 Speaker 05 The dog was barking, and he saw Mr Falater telling the dog to lie down and be quiet.
25:18 Speaker 03 The neighbour also described seeing Scott Falater put gloves on before he rolled Yarmilla into the pool. And police found bloody clothes and a hunting knife in the back of Scott's car.
25:33 Speaker 03 Scott Falater's family said he had a history of sleepwalking. But the prosecutor said he, quote, "did not fit the mold of a sleepwalker."
25:43 Speaker 05 Because when we're sleepwalking, we can commit a great deal of actions. We can cook, we can get dressed, we can drive, and we can attack somebody. But we can't do things that require complex, intelligent thought. So concealing a crime, trying to tell your dog to be quiet to conceal your crime, is evidence of a more intelligent, sort of, complex thought. The fact that Scott Falato had been seen motioning his dog to be quiet, and then the fact he'd also hidden his clothes and the hunting knife in the back of his car, was said to be indicators that he'd been thinking about the crime and how to cover it up. And so they said, "Well, that's not something you would do whilst you're asleep."
26:25 Speaker 03 I mean, right, because if you don't know what you're doing, you don't care that your clothes are bloody.
26:30 Speaker 05 Exactly, yeah. You don't have the ability to think, "Oh, my clothes are bloody. I better hide them in case the police go." That takes a lot of, if we think about it, that takes quite a few steps of thought. You have to think, "Well, the clothes are bloody. Secondly, that will implicate me in a crime. Thirdly, if the police see my bloody clothes, they'll realise I've committed this crime. Fourthly, how am I going to hide it?" When you're sleepwalking, you're very objective focused. So you might think, for example, "I want to cook something, so I'm going to cook it." And you do it. "I want to get to this place, so I'll drive to this place." So it's a much more simple thought.
27:06 Speaker 03 Scott Falater was found guilty of first-degree murder and given a life sentence.
27:13 Speaker 03 We'll be right back.
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29:28 Speaker 03 The year the Canadian Supreme Court reviewed Kenneth Park's sleepwalking case, the FDA approved a new pill for insomnia, Ambien. The most popular sleeping pill then, Halcyon, had been linked to suicide and psychosis, and had been banned by the UK and several other countries. In a few years, Ambien became a bestseller. At first, the fine print warned that it could cause abnormal thinking, strange behaviour, and hallucinations. It said sleepwalking was possible but unusual, affecting 1 in 1,000 people. But then, people started to tell stories of taking Ambien, going to sleep, and waking
30:13 Speaker 03 up to see emails they didn't remember writing, receipts for things they didn't remember buying, and wrappers from food they didn't remember eating. In April 2001, newspapers reported that R E M guitarist Peter Buck had been arrested at Heathrow Airport.
30:33 Speaker 05 He was travelling from the US to London to take part in a concert on a British Airways flight, and he took an Ambien sleeping pill at the start of the flight. He did drink a lot of wine, apparently he was topped up 15 times or so. And then during the flight, he starts attacking staff. So it started off a little, almost comically. He had a pot of yoghurt and a spoon in one hand, and he was sort of throwing them around, and people got sprayed with yoghurt. But then he tried to open an exit door in the plane and wrestled with a member of the cabin crew who was stopping him. The captain of the flight gave him a yellow card, which was something British Airways
31:14 Speaker 05 had incorporated for people who were creating disturbances. So it's effectively saying, "This is your last warning." He ripped it up in the captain's face and said, "Who the hell are you? I'm a member of R E M, blah, blah, blah." He upended a serving trolley, and so he really caused chaos. So when they landed in the UK, he was taken to trial for various offences. Assault, criminal damage and so on. And he said he was sleepwalking and he was in a state of non-insane automatism. And interestingly, experts testified that Ambien could actually produce these side effects. And the fact is that when he took that sleeping tablet, he could not have reasonably foreseen that it would produce those side effects, that it would make him violent in his sleep.
31:59 Speaker 05 Most people know that if you drink a lot, there's a, it's reasonably foreseeable that you could become aggressive. It's not, in the same way, reasonably foreseeable that if you drink a lot and go to sleep, you could sleepwalk and commit a violent act. In relation to Ambien, it follows the same path. So if somebody takes Ambien and falls asleep, that's the expected effect. What's not expected is that they'll sleepwalk then and stab somebody or commit an offence. And so he was acquitted. It probably helped that he had numerous character witnesses coming to court, talking about how he was a really gentle man and this was really out of character and he'd never do anything like that in his right mind and so on.
32:43 Speaker 03 A few years later, in 2006, US Congressman Patrick Kennedy was seen speeding in the wrong lane of traffic on Capitol Hill in the middle of the night. He hit a curb and then ran into a traffic barrier. He told the police that he was on his way to vote. But the House was not in session. Later, he said he was disoriented because he'd taken an Ambien. That year, a study found that the number of car crashes caused by people on Ambien was going up. A group of people filed a class action lawsuit against Ambien's manufacturer.
33:24 Speaker 03 One plaintiff was a woman who'd been arrested for shoplifting DVDs and a candle from the Navy Base where she worked. Others found themselves sleep eating or driving after they'd taken Ambien.
33:39 Speaker 03 In March 2007, the FDA began requiring a stronger warning on the Ambien label and told the manufacturer to let doctors know about the risk of sleep driving. That year, the generic equivalent of Ambien came out, Zolpidem. Manufacturers added a similar warning, and millions of people started taking it, including Lindsey Schweigert, who'd just started a new prescription the day she was arrested in 2011. Lindsay was charged with a DUI and for running a stoplight. As for the car she hit, no one was hurt and the damage was minor. Lindsay says the repair cost something around $450.
34:24 Speaker 04 I was facing six months in jail, and then I was-- that is the criminal side. But then there's the Department of Revenue side. That's like the DMV, the driver's license side.
34:35 Speaker 03 Lindsay's lawyer argued that what had happened was a known side effect of Ambien. She ended up pleading guilty to a lesser charge, careless driving, to avoid jail time, and her license was suspended for a year. She also paid thousands of dollars in legal fees. Is it still hard to believe that you were able to do all of that while asleep? I mean, that's-- that seems terrifying.
35:01 Speaker 04 It is so terrifying. And I mean, I really-- I think the other silver lining I took from it is at least I didn't hurt somebody. Talk about never being able to sleep again.
35:13 Speaker 03 She says she hasn't taken Ambien or Zolpidem since.
35:48 Speaker 03 Criminal is created by Lauren Spoor and me. Nadia Wilson is our senior producer. Katie Bishop is our supervising producer. Our producers are Susanna Roberson, Jackie Sajikko, Lily Clark, Lena Silson, and Megan Kinnane. Our engineer is Veronica Simonetti. Julianne Alexander makes original illustrations for each episode of Criminal. You can see them at thisiscriminal.com. And you can sign up for our newsletter at thisiscriminal.com/newsletter. We hope you'll join our membership program, Criminal Plus, now on Patreon. It's the very best way to support our work. You can listen to Criminal, This is Love, and Phoebe Reads a Mystery without any ads. Plus, you'll get bonus episodes, behind-the-scenes photos and videos,
36:33 Speaker 03 and you'll be able to talk directly with us and other Criminal listeners. Learn more and sign up at patreon.com/criminal. We're on Facebook at This is Criminal and Instagram and TikTok at criminal_podcast. We're also on YouTube at youtube.com/criminalpodcast. Criminal is part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Discover more great shows at podcast.voxmedia.com. I'm Phoebe Judge. This is Criminal.
Previous Sister Helen Next Gone Page updated October 31, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated