Breaking Up is Hard to Do (Criminal+)

This episode is unlocked and available for everyone to listen to! It took some trial and error, but Phoebe finally figured out how to put on makeup. Plus, Lauren asks for advice on delivering bad news, and we hear the latest in a crime story involving bees. If you enjoyed listening to today's Criminal Plus episode and you'd like more - ⁠join us on Patreon⁠. We put these episodes with Phoebe and Lauren out twice a month - plus you'll have access to ad-free listening, behind-the-scenes videos with Phoebe and Criminal producers, chat rooms, live events, and more. Right now, you can use the promo code "JOIN25" for 25% off of an annual membership. Thank you very much for supporting our work. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:02Speaker 00

  Hi, it's Phoebe. This is an episode of Criminal Plus, the show I make with Lauren Spoor, co-creator of Criminal. It's very different from Criminal. My father thinks it's the better show. If you like it and want more, become a member of Criminal Plus at patreon.com/criminal. It's the very best thing you can do to support all of our work. I know you've heard me say that before, but it is really true. And right now, you can use a special promo code, JOIN25, to get 25% off an annual membership. Again, that's patreon.com/criminal. There's a link in the show notes, too. Welcome to Criminal Plus. I'm Phoebe Judge.

• 0:44Speaker 01

  I'm Lauren Spoor.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  Lauren, I have been on a journey. I have been on, it's maybe one of the biggest journeys I've ever been on in my life, and it has nothing to do with traveling. You also have been alongside me for part of this journey over the past 10 days.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  I have to say, and I don't mean this to be rude, but you have really impressed me.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  We are starting something new, and that is going to be a new video series. We're going to be releasing videos of interviews I do with people. And there'll be an audio version, too. But there'll also be a video version that's going to live on YouTube. And, you know, everyone else is doing it, so we thought, why not us?

• 1:32Speaker 01

  We'll try.

• 1:32Speaker 00

  We'll try. We'll try. And so because of this, because we were going to do video, and we haven't done it before, we decided that we were going to, we were going to make my studio that I'm in, in Massachusetts a lot of the time, into more of a video studio. And that meant that for the past four days, I have been there, I'm back in North Carolina now, but I've been there with very talented camera people, and more importantly, as I'm learning, lighting people, getting the studio video ready. So they did their jobs, and they did a wonderful job. But I had a job.

• 2:17Speaker 00

  And that job was

• 2:19Speaker 01

  Getting camera ready.

• 2:20Speaker 00

  Is getting camera ready myself. And it was suggested that I should try a bit of makeup. Now, I've, of course, worn makeup in the past. I wear makeup for the live shows. I wear makeup for photo shoots when I do them. I wear makeup for big events. But I don't wear makeup in my daily life.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  And I think it's safe to say that you don't, you haven't applied the makeup that you've worn in the past.

• 2:44Speaker 00

  True. I mean, maybe I've screwed around a little bit with mascara. But, you know, I haven't really. And so, uh, I, I, this is also the type of situation where if we're gonna be doing these videos often, I think we're gonna be doing them, you know, it's not gonna be every day, but I, it's a big experiment. But I needed to know how to do this myself. You know, I wasn't, someone's not gonna come in and put the makeup on me every time I do a video interview. So, uh, what were we gonna do? So last week, Lauren went out to Sephora and said, I'm gonna buy you some makeup. I wonder if it's worth putting up the journey pictures of the makeup stages. Lauren came over to my house with a bag from Sephora.

• 3:28Speaker 00

  And Lauren, what, what were you, you had just decided what you thought I might need?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Yes, and I think that our Criminal Plus listeners, our most trusted best friends, we can say Phoebe has had a little bit of a red face for the last year or so. And so

• 3:44Speaker 00

  What are you talking?

• 3:45Speaker 01

  One challenge for this camera project was like, how do we mitigate the redness?

• 3:51Speaker 00

  Lauren, we can talk about rosacea at another show. It's a journey.

• 3:57Speaker 01

  Well, when I walked into Sephora, I thought to myself, she's gonna need something green. Cause I think you use green, I think if you put green makeup on top of red's face, it makes the redness look better. So my, I was looking for a green product, which I found. I was looking for a translucent powder, which I got from Clinique. This was a Sephora located entirely inside of a Kohl's. Have you ever experienced that before? I walked at the front door. What I was looking at from the parking lot was a Sephora next to a Kohl's. And then I walked in the Sephora doors and I was in the Kohl's. And I was like, oh, I went in the wrong door. So I walked back out and then I was like, oh, no, I guess that's right. Walked back in and then the Sephora was entirely.

• 4:41Speaker 01

  It was like the middle of a donut and all around you in the Sephora, you were inside of a Kohl's. So it wasn't, it wasn't the most that Sephora could offer. It was a little bit of a smaller selection, but I made it work. Translucent powder, got you some mascara. I got her a brown eyeliner that had a brush on the other side. And a La Niège lip mask, which is a product that I like. And a clear eyebrow gel and a blush stick. And so I was operating with this. What I, when I put on makeup, I like to keep it simple and fast. You can do it in the car if you need to. You can do it with one hand if you need to. So I thought Phoebe probably wants it to be simple if she's going to do it at all.

• 5:26Speaker 00

  So Lauren showed up and she said, we'll just sit here at the dining room table. No light needed. Don't worry about lights.

• 5:32Speaker 01

  We had a huge sun lift, huge open bay window.

• 5:35Speaker 00

  And then she said, just use your fingers.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's how I do it.

• 5:39Speaker 00

  To just start.

• 5:40Speaker 01

  And I, oh, and a brush. I got her a nice brush.

• 5:42Speaker 00

  One brush, but just use your fingers, she said. And I.

• 5:47Speaker 01

  To apply the green concealer.

• 5:48Speaker 00

  Well, also everything, Lauren, you just kept saying, use your finger. Don't worry, just spread it on. And so I did. And I'll tell you, I, at the end of it, I have never exactly known what the definition of a bordello is. But I looked that I worked there and had worked there overnight.

• 6:11Speaker 00

  It was, um, we, I had.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I think it was a really, there was, I think the problem was we did a layer of green concealer, then powder, then we tried more green concealer and then more powder. So I feel like we had a layer cake. And then we, we had put the eyeliner on and then we decided, let's see how it looks with more.

• 6:27Speaker 00

  A heavier eye, a heavier.

• 6:29Speaker 01

  It was just an experiment. So we sent some photos to our colleagues and their response was. Polite.

• 6:37Speaker 00

  Their response was, you know, what's interesting is one always wants to be polite to your colleagues. And so sometimes if you just see something that might be a little off, you don't say anything. You say it looks great. This was so off that they couldn't stop themselves.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  No, I think something to your credit, something about working with you is that you, it's like no one wants to just, in my opinion, I feel like you invite directness. Like when you ask a question, I feel like it's abundantly clear you want an honest answer, which I find absolutely refreshing and I wish more people operated like that.

• 7:13Speaker 00

  Well, they were honest.

• 7:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, which was great.

• 7:17Speaker 00

  So, so we needed to fix that. And so.

• 7:21Speaker 01

  I said, just wash it off and try again later. And then I hit the road. So that was like the extent of my contribution.

• 7:27Speaker 00

  So the next, a couple of days later, I was flying to Massachusetts because it was my niece's parent teacher conferences weekend, Parents Weekend. So I was going to see her. And she is 17. And so if you're 17, a certain type of 17 year olds, you know how to do makeup. Sure, makeup is wonderful. She loves to do makeup. And she said to me, don't worry, Phoebe, I'll take care of it. I'll teach you how to do everything. And so we laid all the products that Lauren got me out and she had some questions about some of Lauren's choices. The first thing she said is, Phoebe, where are the brushes? You don't have anything to apply. And I said, Lauren just says, use your fingers.

• 8:11Speaker 00

  And she said, she didn't really know what to say. And then she had me, she said, the first thing we're doing, she had me put on this headband. It's a makeup headband. It has a big bow in the front of it. And she said, that's going to help. And so then she taught me.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  What does that do?

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Keeps your hair out of the, so you can get the makeup all the way up on your forehead. She said, I had to wear it. We have a little, we have a little video that she had me take of how I should apply the makeup. Should we play a little clip of it?

• 8:43Speaker 02

  Okay, it's in my eyebrows, but we'll fix that, Rachel.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  Okay, do you think I need more or do you think this is good? More?

• 8:50Speaker 03

  How much do you usually put?

• 8:52Speaker 00

  I mean, you just put a little more of the, of the.

• 8:55Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah.

• 8:56Speaker 00

  But don't use the green drops, or should I?

• 8:59Speaker 03

  You have green drops?

• 9:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:01Speaker 03

  Oh, that. Oh, you can use that. Um, I put, oh, girl.

• 9:08Speaker 03

  You could do that, too. This is why you need to have like a brush. This is like, you don't, you know, when you use their hands, I would put a little here.

• 9:18Speaker 00

  So then I sent a picture to Lauren and I said, what do you think? And you said, can she do my makeup?

• 9:25Speaker 01

  I mean, it looks so good.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  Looks.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  These kids today, I don't, how did they learn?

• 9:31Speaker 00

  It looks fantastic.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  It looks fantastic.

• 9:33Speaker 00

  But it, it wasn't, it, it maybe was a little too much. It wasn't no makeup makeup, which is what I was going for. High glam. And so then, so I, I get to the studio, I leave everyone, I'm by myself. Uh, the camera people are setting up cameras and lights and here we go. I'm on, I gotta do it myself.

• 9:53Speaker 01

  You were unresponsive to phone calls and texts for a pretty long time and then I just received a photo.

• 9:58Speaker 00

  And then you.

• 9:58Speaker 01

  And I knew what you had been doing with your time.

• 10:00Speaker 00

  What did you think?

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Fighting for your life with the makeup mirror. No, it looked wonderful. I was completely impressed. That after what, like one tutorial from me, which was helpful and one really helpful tutorial from your niece? And you are now very good at putting on makeup?

• 10:18Speaker 00

  Well.

• 10:19Speaker 01

  I, I was absolutely impressed.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  So, yeah, so it's, it's a new life. It's makeup life.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Every day or?

• 10:27Speaker 00

  No, not every day, only when we're doing the videos.

• 10:29Speaker 01

  Which is gonna be often.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, but you know, the thing about the videos is it's been, I think for all of us here, we've all been a little bit, you know, uh, we, we know how to cut audio. We don't know how to cut video, what are we, um, but it's actually kind of fun. It's. Katie Bishop and I were, uh, on a six AM video interview, uh, yesterday with a man in Australia. That was a little rough to get the makeup looking right at six AM, but.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Another thing for you is you don't want to have wet hair.

• 11:02Speaker 00

  I think that's for you.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Well, what if like, can you imagine turning on like morning news and the newscaster had wet hair?

• 11:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:11Speaker 01

  But I have another question for you, which is you're doing some off the cuff videos for social media. Are you worried about the contrast being very great between an off the cuff? Phoebe on her way to go jogging and then high glam Phoebe? People are, are they going to know it's the same person or?

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Anyway, the video thing is exciting. It's totally brand new for all of us. We've recorded three so far.

• 11:38Speaker 01

  Including with one with a big celeb.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  Yep.

• 11:43Speaker 00

  Well, big celeb, it's not Beyonce.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Well, it's a very famous crime writer.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Fiction.

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Woman.

• 11:53Speaker 01

  Phoebe, do you have a trivia question?

• 11:56Speaker 00

  I do have a trivia question. Trivia with Phoebe. Lauren, in what state? And at what speed is the highest speed limit in the country? It is not all over the state. It is on a section of highway.

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Have we been on it?

• 12:17Speaker 00

  Posted speed limit. We have not been on it. So I can even, if it's be helpful, I could give you the state and then you can just pick.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  No, I don't want you to give me the state, but I'm gonna do a prelim that it's South Dakota.

• 12:29Speaker 00

  Okay. And do you know what the speed limit would be, the posted speed limit?

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Eighty.

• 12:36Speaker 00

  Okay. I will get back to you at the end of the show.

• 12:41Speaker 01

  I'm also interested in Montana.

• 12:44Speaker 00

  Yeah. The only speeding ticket I ever got in my life. Okay. What state and at what speed is the highest speed limit in America?

• 12:56Speaker 01

  Right before this call, I was reading about a woman named Ariel Koenig, 37. She's a central witness in a murder trial. Her husband is on trial for trying to murder her. And so at the trial, she read a birthday card that he had given to her that morning. Can I read it to you?

• 13:14Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 13:15Speaker 01

  Happy birthday, Angel Face. This is the card that her husband gave her shortly before he attempted to kill her on a hike. Happy birthday, Angel Face. There isn't an obstacle in this world too hard for me to fight through for you. You're the heart of our family, and that heart is strong. You're a terrific mom. The kids and I hit the jackpot with you. Love always, G. This is what happened. A couple of years before, the husband, Gerhart, logged into his wife's WhatsApp account and saw that she was exchanging WhatsApp messages with a coworker who was also married, and they worked together at a nuclear energy company. She worked remotely.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  And then, apparently, their relationship was lots and lots and lots of messages, but nothing ever physical, according to the wife. But the husband, sometimes they were messaging all day long, on weekends, and always talking about sort of personal things. And they had a code word, so if Ariel Konig wanted to tell her coworker that her husband was nearby, she would use this work term, H A L E U, an acronym for a type of nuclear fuel that they both worked with professionally. The husband finds this out. He can't stop monitoring her phone. He's obsessed with it. He confronts her, and then they agree that they're going to not separate. They're going to give their marriage two years, a two-year project. And then, he asked his wife, what do you want to do to celebrate your birthday?

• 14:41Speaker 01

  And she said she'd always wanted to visit Oahu. And she says, you know, we can go another time. We don't have to go right away. And the husband immediately books the trip, gives his wife the birthday card, gives her a necklace. And then, according to her, and according to the prosecution, they're on this hike that's over like a rugged cliff. He grabbed her and began pushing her toward the edge of the ridge. She threw herself down and grabbed onto some shrubs and bushes, and was just screaming and screaming. And then, according to her, her husband pulled out a vial and a liquid and tried to inject her with something with a syringe. And that is what I was just reading about. Have you heard this story?

• 15:24Speaker 01

  How many stories have we talked about this year of men trying to kill their wives on hikes?

• 15:30Speaker 00

  This leads me to a very important thing that we should talk about. Grip strength. It is one of the key indicators of overall health.

• 15:43Speaker 00

  This woman was doing something right if she was able to hold on to those shrubs.

• 15:48Speaker 01

  Grabbing hold of roots and shrubs.

• 15:50Speaker 00

  Grip, strength.

• 15:53Speaker 00

  This was something, we're having a graduation party this weekend. And I thought, I always like, when we throw a party, when I throw a party, I always like there to be something. You know, it can't just be a cocktail party. It's, there's, there should be an event, you know, so you roast oysters or there's something, you know, some built around something.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  Will we be testing our hand strength?

• 16:12Speaker 00

  Well, this is what I was thinking. Last week, Sarah bought one of these things for $23 on Amazon. It's a digital display and you squeeze it as hard as you can and it shows you your power. Sarah did hers.

• 16:29Speaker 00

  68. Fantastic. Normal range. Great. And then I did mine.

• 16:37Speaker 00

  And I thought it would be so fun at the party to have everyone go around and, you know, you have to write it on a little list. I thought you would really like that, Lauren.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  I would really like that.

• 16:46Speaker 00

  Then I was thinking, I did think to myself, Lauren would love this so much. For $25, should I just get it for her for like her birthday present? You could just have it.

• 16:54Speaker 01

  Then you can train and test again.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  Do you know what mine was? You didn't even ask.

• 16:59Speaker 01

  What was it? What's the max?

• 17:00Speaker 00

  I don't think there, like maybe 190. 103.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  Wow, okay, I can't wait to try.

• 17:07Speaker 00

  And it's fun because your left hand, your right hand. But anyway, grip, strength. Start thinking about it if you haven't. Clearly, there are circumstances where you may need to hold on to roots or shrubs. And you need to make sure those fingers are strong enough. Speaking of fingers, Lauren. It's like Marilyn Monroe just came across the screen.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Me?

• 17:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Why?

• 17:33Speaker 00

  Just put your, put your hand up across the screen. It's like Marilyn Monroe.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 17:39Speaker 00

  That is a. What mood do you have to be in to get that color of red on your nails? Because it looks like 1952 over there.

• 17:51Speaker 01

  What do you mean what mood? It's like just classic.

• 17:53Speaker 00

  But I know it's classic, but it's like a Marilyn Monroe color. You know, that bright, bright red.

• 18:00Speaker 01

  I feel like if you're going to spend the money, you need to do something. Although I know I'm the person who said, go do it with no polish at all. But if you're going to get polished, I feel like you want to see it. You want to notice it. I just went and had, my mother and I went and got manicures.

• 18:14Speaker 00

  Well, I can tell.

• 18:18Speaker 01

  Do you know what her favorite nail polish color is ever since I was a little kid? My entire life, it's called Grand Canyon Sunset. And so anytime we go to a nail salon together, she'll say, I wish they still made Grand Canyon Sunset. And it's like such a potent memory.

• 18:32Speaker 00

  Is it an orangey red?

• 18:34Speaker 01

  It's like a brownish red.

• 18:36Speaker 00

  Do you remember when Nikki Silva, maybe it was Davia Nelson, the Kitchen Sisters? We were at some audio conference festival in New York. And I think we were doing something. We had a little part of it, but then we stayed for Davia Nelson's.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:56Speaker 00

  The whole entire audio piece was her just reading names of lipsticks.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  That's right. It was great.

• 19:05Speaker 00

  It was wonderful because the names are so wild. Yeah, it was just name after name after name.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  My mom asked me an etiquette question, which I will now ask you. How early, if any amount early, can you check in to a VRBO or an Airbnb with a keypad door? So if check in is at four,

• 19:27Speaker 01

  how early would you dare to go in?

• 19:32Speaker 00

  I would write to the owner beforehand and say, I'm just one, as I said, I'm arriving at two. Is there any way to, so that's what I would do. I would be too scared to go.

• 19:43Speaker 01

  I would never be able to go in early.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  I would go 15 minutes early, but I would just write to the owner and say, I'm going to be in the area. Is it possible to check in?

• 19:52Speaker 01

  Well, she sent me the message one hour before check in. I didn't see it until 25 minutes before check in. And I said, I replied, I wouldn't do that. And then she replied, oops, because she was already in.

• 20:05Speaker 00

  Lauren, I have a story that we have, I've been following this story. We all have for a little while, but there was movement on it this week.

• 20:14Speaker 01

  What?

• 20:15Speaker 00

  This is the story about the woman and the bees in Massachusetts. So this was, this was a few years ago. A woman, she was in her mid 50s. She showed up at her friend's house, an elderly gentleman, who was being served eviction papers. He had cancer. He was sick and the sheriff's office had shown up to serve him eviction papers. His friend, this woman, shows up wearing, she's a beekeeper, and she showed up wearing her beekeeper suit with a truckload of bee hives behind her. She got out of the car.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  In her suit?

• 20:58Speaker 00

  In her suit, full suit. As the deputies were trying to evict the man, serve her friend eviction papers, she opened all of the hives and let the bees go towards the officers. Officers were swatting bees away. Bee hives were falling on each other, crushing some bees. The officers were, were very stung, some of them badly. They were all okay, but they were badly stung. She says it was an accident. She didn't know the hives opened. She, though, was in her full suit with hood. So, but she was in her full suit, so she did not get stung.

• 21:44Speaker 00

  She was convicted of four misdemeanor counts of assault and battery and two counts of reckless assault. She spent six months in jail, waiting for the trial, and then served another couple of weeks.

• 22:00Speaker 00

  What she said when they asked her, she said that she was, why she opened the hives? She said she was only wanting the bees to forage on a lovely landscape. She had no intention. She was wearing the full suit.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  Well, I also read that she was wrestled to the ground by the police officers. And that a bunch of her bees died during that.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  And a queen bee dies after it stings. So if they're stinging all of the police officers, it's kind, I, I, I understand it could be very dangerous if any of the officers had, were allergic, but it is, it isn't, it's kind of creative at least. I mean, we need to hear some creativity in the world.

• 22:45Speaker 01

  It's hard to imagine hearing about your friend, something bad happening to your friend, and then your first thought is, I'm going to load up the bees.

• 22:52Speaker 00

  Where's the suit?

• 22:53Speaker 01

  It reminds me of our This Is Love episode about bees.

• 22:57Speaker 00

  Telling the bees.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  There's so many things in that that I think about. Yeah, especially, I guess, like where we got the title, the idea that you have to tell the bees when someone has died.

• 23:06Speaker 00

  Is it true that bees are the secret to life? That, that, that this is the marker of the health of our planet?

• 23:14Speaker 01

  Entire ecosystem?

• 23:15Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, I think someone's-

• 23:18Speaker 01

  Oh my god. Okay, someone told me the other day that there's a woman in town who has chronic Lyme disease and that her, she's undergoing this interesting treatment where she manually stings herself up and down her spine with bees and that it is working. That of all the different treatments she's tried, have you ever heard of this?

• 23:38Speaker 00

  No. But chronic Lyme's no joke, so more potent.

• 23:42Speaker 01

  How do you make a bee, how do you, what do you hold the bee?

• 23:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, you must hold it. You must be able to manipulate it.

• 23:46Speaker 01

  And then you can just like force it to sting you?

• 23:48Speaker 00

  I, I pitched a story, yeah. I pitched a story a couple of months ago about a man who was, who had purposefully let himself be bitten by snakes, venomous snakes, that his blood could be used as an antivenom for others.

• 24:06Speaker 01

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 24:07Speaker 00

  I know. We're having a hard time getting him to call us back.

• 24:10Speaker 01

  I had a pottery teacher tell me that he had been bit by a brown raccoon spider and that they used, the antivenom drug that they used at the hospital meant that if he were ever bit by a venomous snake, it wouldn't work. As though, once your body's acclimated to these antivenom medications, like you only have one chance, sort of.

• 24:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think that-

• 24:33Speaker 01

  That's something to worry about.

• 24:34Speaker 00

  Well, certainly around here with the copperheads.

• 24:37Speaker 01

  And all the spiders.

• 24:39Speaker 00

  You know what you have to watch out for, Lauren?

• 24:41Speaker 01

  What?

• 24:42Speaker 00

  Getting into your car, because they like the coolness under cars. You've got to watch your ankles.

• 24:47Speaker 01

  Who? Spiders or snakes?

• 24:48Speaker 00

  Copperheads.

• 24:49Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I have really big news, which is that in the last episode of Criminal Plus, I talked about my garbage can buckles, which I was really excited about because I thought it was keeping the raccoons from getting in. Last night, opened the carport door, hear a loud thrashing around, and I, and then a little raccoon popped his head out. So he had somehow like pried the plastic open, gotten in, and was just in there eating.

• 25:18Speaker 01

  So I need to rethink the buckles, tighten the buckles.

• 25:21Speaker 00

  Did you let him out?

• 25:22Speaker 01

  No, because he let himself out. I was scared to go too close.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  As you know, I'm dealing with something really big, which is that I attempted to write an email to break up with my therapist.

• 25:35Speaker 00

  What if she's listening to this?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  I don't think that she is.

• 25:39Speaker 00

  I, I absolutely think she could be.

• 25:41Speaker 01

  What? Without ever telling me? No.

• 25:45Speaker 00

  Oh, absolutely.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Oh, I think that would be like, like a weird violation, don't you think?

• 25:50Speaker 00

  So we're just-

• 25:50Speaker 01

  Does your therapist listen?

• 25:51Speaker 00

  We're just gonna, well- No, no, no, no, no, no. But you know, I don't really have, I just, it's kind of a retainer situation with me. It's a, I keep her on retainer a bit. It's a rather quick check-in every two weeks, sometimes 10 minutes, sometimes. So I don't want to waste a lot of her time. So, um-

• 26:13Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 26:16Speaker 00

  I think she gets it.

• 26:18Speaker 01

  I think that this is one of the more difficult social projects I've undertaken in my entire life.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  We discussed this this morning, and you and I differed on how we would have approached this.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Well, I, this is what I wanted to ask the listener. I wrote, it's sort of like if you're receiving difficult professional news, so a lot of times they send an email, so you have a minute to sort of digest. So I sent an email saying that I would like to discuss, but I am feeling like it's time to wind down.

• 26:49Speaker 00

  And then you're gonna see her.

• 26:50Speaker 01

  And then I said, looking forward to your thoughts. Yeah, and I'll see her on Monday and we'll talk. And I imagine that we'll meet a number of times to talk about it. It's not just like a goodbye forever.

• 26:57Speaker 00

  And I-

• 26:58Speaker 01

  But it is, I am stressed. I am stressed.

• 27:00Speaker 00

  And I said, the, the, I would be too. I said that the way I would handle this is, eh, door, not at the end of the session. At the beginning of the session, I would have said, I'd like to talk about something.

• 27:14Speaker 01

  And what words would you, okay, keep going. What would you have said?

• 27:16Speaker 00

  I said, I'd like to talk about something. And, okay, but I've been thinking a lot about this and I've been thinking about it for a long time. And I think maybe I'm not getting as much of, out of these conversations as I used to. Cause I think I'm very different now and I think I've changed a lot. And I've just been thinking about it at the end of our sessions, making it about you. I've been thinking about it at the end of our sessions. I'm realizing I'm not getting enough. And so you, this long preamble, me, it's me, I'm the problem, I'm the problem, I'm the problem.

• 27:57Speaker 00

  And then she says, Lauren, of course, I just want to support you in anything you want. And yeah, you know, and then, then you've opened, so that's how I would have. And now, cat's out of the bag, what's done is done, but-

• 28:11Speaker 01

  Well, I think, I was worried that if I didn't sort of take a minute to choose my words carefully, that if I said, I'm not getting as much out of these sessions, that could, something like that could feel like an insult to her. So I wanted to make sure that I was deploying the information carefully. I planted the seed, so now she'll know what I want to talk about. Also, like, what if something sort of chaotic happens the morning of the session? And then I chicken out and don't bring it up? Well, I think this is, I think this is a new, eh, it's a new level of being, feeling like a grown up. And she hasn't responded, so.

• 28:51Speaker 00

  If you're looking for a new therapist, you may need to look no further.

• 28:55Speaker 01

  Oh, we're offering your services.

• 28:57Speaker 00

  Maybe after you hear this email that we received this week.

• 29:01Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 29:01Speaker 00

  Heather wrote, "My husband and I have been married 20 years. We've developed different views and opinions over those years. 10 years ago, we were at a breaking point in difference of political views. But one thing we agreed on, we loved Criminal. It was the one thing we were able to talk about and discuss without opposition. The subtle social justice points made in personal stories relevant to current events brought us to the same page. Now, a decade later, we still love Criminal, and we are in the best place we've ever been."

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 29:35Speaker 00

  Who needs BetterHelp?

• 29:37Speaker 01

  We need them to sponsor us. We do.

• 29:41Speaker 00

  Betterhelp.com/criminal.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Should I go contact a BetterHelp therapist for advice on how to break up with my real-life therapist?

• 29:52Speaker 00

  We also got another email about, this is so interesting, couples listening to Criminal together. Here's another one we got. A listener wrote in from Oklahoma and said she put on Criminal during a big storm while she and her husband were sheltering in their laundry room with their animals, because Criminal was something we could agree on.

• 30:15Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 30:16Speaker 00

  Not just putting people to sleep, also bringing people together. I say that only because when I was doing a lot of Phoebe reads, I would oftentimes hear from couples who would tell me that they would turn Phoebe reads on at night in bed, and that's how they would fall asleep. So it'd be like the couple, me, as part of their couple.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  Oh, okay, a throuple.

• 30:49Speaker 00

  A throuple. Speaking of romance, I was thinking about this earlier, and I didn't bring it up, because I just was remembering Sarah's sister used to work in a flower store, in a florist.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  And on Valentine's Day, she would call us at the end of the day and read to us what she remembered of the cards that people would have her dictate in their flower arrangements.

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Oh, that's so good.

• 31:20Speaker 00

  And it was shocking. Imagine.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  Oh, I would have just guessed it was all like, happy birthday, all my best.

• 31:29Speaker 00

  No, no, no. Roger calls up and says, well, what'd you like on the card, Roger? I can't even say it. Wild things.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  Erotica?

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Yes, but wild stuff. A look into the human psyche. Yes. Yes, she would report. I, I, she couldn't make the stuff up. I don't know. I was just thinking about that.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Can you give an example?

• 31:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'll give an example. It's totally inappropriate.

• 31:55Speaker 01

  Is there something like psychopathic about dictating that to a stranger who works in the flower shop and making them write it?

• 32:02Speaker 00

  That's what, that's what was so fascinating.

• 32:04Speaker 01

  Do you know what I mean?

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Exactly. Now, this isn't, this isn't typing it in 1-800-FLOWERS. You can type your own message. This is, what, okay, well, yes, sir. What would you like me to say? Get ready for daddy. Big boys coming home later. Happy Valentine's Day. I made that up, but it's, you get the gist.

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Anyway.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 32:25Speaker 00

  Uh, I don't know. I thought about it. It's not Valentine's Day. I don't.

• 32:28Speaker 01

  I was really touched by the responses to the Costco episode.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  And how, yes, and the number of people who are begging us to now go to Trader Joe's. We've had so many emails and calls from people saying, please now go to Trader Joe's. I'd be happy to go to Trader. Lauren, would you be happy to go to Trader Joe's? I think, I think I'm going to lead you down those. I don't, do you know Trader Joe's that well? I feel like you could take me around Wegmans, but.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  I just need to say something because when we were in Costco, I was excited to see Sukie's brand samosas, which is one of my favorite foods. And someone wrote in to say that they bought them because of that and that they were disappointed. And I have to say that I agree. And the Sukie's samosas at Costco are bigger and different than the ones that you get at the regular grocery store. And because they're bigger, they're more dried out.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  So you're not recommending them?

• 33:22Speaker 01

  I, well, I, I, how was I supposed to know that the ones at Costco that look exactly the same are going to be bigger and different? Our Costco, like the individual food item, I thought would have been the same.

• 33:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, me too.

• 33:34Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 33:35Speaker 00

  No, that's an anomaly. Sukie's, that's an anomaly.

• 33:38Speaker 01

  It's making me suspicious.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  No, it's, that's a one, one product. It's one product flaw.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  People thought that I sounded really excited about the samples, which was mortifying to hear. But thank you for listening. We got an email from Jonathan. He says, as a fellow seltzer addict, I suggest the purchase of a SodaStream or the like. And you need to keep a backup CO2 bottle and you will never run out.

• 34:06Speaker 00

  I know. The problem is that then that requires a different type of transport. You have to make the seltzer and then pour it into another vessel.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:17Speaker 00

  And that's, it takes up a lot of space. Jonathan, thank you. Of course, I've considered it and certainly with the, I understand about the added flavors and seltzers supposed to be terrible for us cancer central, but I am working on it. I'm working on less, you know, I-

• 34:32Speaker 01

  The cans, the cans are lined with plastic.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Two seltzers, it's two La Croix a day.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  Plus your Diet Coke. Now you're looking at three cans a day.

• 34:42Speaker 01

  Allison has a fact check. She says, I'm also a huge fan of Gardener's World. I'm from the UK, but I live abroad in a hot, dry city unnamed. So for me, it brings great joy to see my home country and how green it is. Just wanted to fact check your, it's been running for 25 years quote, comments about the show. And she says, the show started in the 60s and has had over 55 seasons so far. That is impressive.

• 35:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes, I knew it would have been long, Monty Don on for a very long time.

• 35:12Speaker 01

  Well, we also got a note from Adam, who says, Phoebe, you mentioned that your wish was to fly over your house and tip your wings. I wanted to suggest that you book a discovery flight with a nearby flight school. You'll be shown the basics of flight controls and will actually fly the plane. If you live close enough to the home airport, you might be able to arrange with the flight instructor to fly over your house. I think that's a great idea and you should bring a recorder, bring us with you. I will stay on the ground.

• 35:36Speaker 00

  I, after my recent video interview-

• 35:41Speaker 00

  Two days ago with someone who flies their own helicopters. I have just, I'm, I'm, I'm right there. I need nothing else to get me to get in that plane and start taking lessons. And I am pretty close to a very good flight school. So there's no excuse. And, and that is what I did for my birthday last year. I, I took the biplane ride over the house. Um, but I wasn't flying. Lauren, are you ready to find out the answer to the trivia question?

• 36:13Speaker 01

  Um, yes.

• 36:15Speaker 00

  So you guessed South Dakota and 80 miles an hour.

• 36:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 36:19Speaker 00

  You're wrong on both.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  The state is Texas.

• 36:23Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 36:25Speaker 00

  The highest posted speed limit in the United States is a stretch. If I believe Route 130 could be one, let me, let me actually tell you. 130, it's a 40 mile section of the Texas State Highway 130 Toll Road. Also known as the Pickle Parkway between San Antonio and Austin. And the highest, the posted speed limit is 85 miles per hour.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Rarely have I ever gone 85 miles an hour. I can't, I can't imagine. And then you go five over, you're going 90?

• 37:01Speaker 01

  Would you like to talk about things you've been enjoying lately?

• 37:05Speaker 00

  Yes, I would. Well, I think one of the things that you've been enjoying and I've been enjoying. We actually, I don't know if this has ever happened before. I think we have a crossover.

• 37:14Speaker 01

  This is also, this is going to be a reveal into our lives.

• 37:19Speaker 00

  What part of it?

• 37:20Speaker 01

  What do you mean?

• 37:21Speaker 00

  A reveal into, but tell me what, I'm just wondering what the reveal is going to be.

• 37:25Speaker 01

  I just think this is, this is personal.

• 37:28Speaker 00

  That we'd be interested in this?

• 37:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Well, we bought the founding membership for a month. So I don't know if we're going to be interested in next month.

• 37:36Speaker 01

  There was a mis, Phoebe and I had a misunderstanding about this also. I said I bought, I became a founding member, which she somehow thought meant that I was like an investor.

• 37:49Speaker 01

  In a new local yoga studio. But it's not just yoga, it is hot yoga.

• 37:56Speaker 00

  It's hot.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  And we are both going and we are, we are trying so hard in there.

• 38:04Speaker 00

  Well, here's, here's what happened. Lauren said, there's this new yoga place that's just opened in downtown Durham. It's, well, we know why you're going back is because of the smoothie bar, which are pretty good. She said, it's great. So then the best thing about it is that you can order your smoothie before class. And when you walk out of class, it's lined up for you with your name on it.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  No waiting.

• 38:26Speaker 00

  She went, she said, would you come with me? And I said, Lauren, I can barely do yoga and I certainly have never done.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  Well, first I misunderstood and thought I could bring you for free because of my founding membership, which was incorrect.

• 38:37Speaker 00

  So I went to an hour long hot yoga class. I had not done, gone to a yoga class in about eight years, a real life yoga class. I do little yoga, Peloton stuff. And I didn't know what to expect. I go in there, I grab a little towel. We open the door, it is, it is just in furnace, 270 degrees. Lauren and I put our little mats side by side and we start going. The sweat is pouring off of me.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  I look over at Phoebe's mat, it is like eight, the dog got out of the, a lake and shook off. Your mat was, and, and I said, you were sweating more than me because you have such high levels of cardio fitness.

• 39:22Speaker 00

  I was sliding. My feet were sliding. I didn't know.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  She was also gla, just glaring at me the entire time.

• 39:30Speaker 00

  You're so hot. You can't do anything. You don't understand the poses. Warrior one, two, front lunge, cresset moon, shavasana.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  The music is very loud also.

• 39:43Speaker 00

  I couldn't hear, I was so hot.

• 39:44Speaker 01

  I cannot hear the instructions.

• 39:46Speaker 00

  She, she's, I was just trying to follow along with her. So we go to the first, we get out of it. And then the, the, the most wonderful thing in the world is at the end of it, they come by with a cold lavender towel and it feels like heroin.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  I don't, it must, this must be what heroin feels like. It's fantastic. Anyway, so that's, that's my number. Can we say it's your number one too, Lauren?

• 40:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I've really been enjoying it. It feels so good to walk out of there and have your smoothie and then, I don't know, I don't know why it's so fun.

• 40:23Speaker 00

  It's so hard, though, in the middle of it. It's just, it's so hard, man. Gosh. But you know, I got one of those towels, so I put the towel on top of the mat now.

• 40:35Speaker 00

  Helps with the sweat. What's your number two, Lauren?

• 40:39Speaker 01

  My number two is a movie called Black Bag.

• 40:43Speaker 00

  Is this one of these corporate thrillers?

• 40:45Speaker 01

  Hmm, no, but it's Cate Blanchett. Do you pronounce it Blanchett or Blanchet?

• 40:50Speaker 00

  I pronounce it Blanchett.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Oh. Uh, Black Bag. This is a spy movie directed by Steven Soderbergh, and it has Cate Blanchett and Michael Fassbender. They are both intelligence officers, married, and that's all I'm gonna say. I, I thought it was wonderful.

• 41:07Speaker 00

  Okay. The second thing I've been enjoying lately on my new makeup journey.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Hot yoga, makeup, who are you?

• 41:16Speaker 00

  Is Jackie Strico here at Criminal recommended this product, and then my niece said you have to have it. It's not fancy. This is my clear water.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, my cellular.

• 41:30Speaker 00

  My cellular water?

• 41:31Speaker 01

  No, no, don't, I'm not sure.

• 41:33Speaker 00

  This is makeup remover, and it does a fantastic job. And I use those Neutrogena wipes and things. This is the stuff. Uh, it's not expensive. You, you know, squirt it on a little piece of cotton, and it takes out all of your makeup. So that is my number two.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  My technique for removing mascara is you just wait.

• 41:55Speaker 00

  That's my technique too, but you know what happens when you wake up in the morning?

• 42:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's fine. You just move forward. You just take the toilet paper and scrape underneath your eyes, and then, yeah.

• 42:07Speaker 00

  Just rough scraping, just like the makeup application.

• 42:10Speaker 01

  With the toilet paper, that's right. Just use, as I say, just use your hands.

• 42:13Speaker 00

  Um, so that, yes, that's my number two. What's your number three, Lauren?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  My number three is a chain mail cast iron pan scrubber. Do you own this?

• 42:24Speaker 00

  Yes, I do.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Wow. I've been making scrambled eggs every morning in a cast iron and it is not fun to clean unless you have one of these little chain mail scrubbers.

• 42:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's a great recommendation.

• 42:37Speaker 01

  It's a simple, beautiful device. And then if you feel like it's getting kind of dirty, you just put it in the dishwasher.

• 42:42Speaker 00

  Yep, it's great.

• 42:43Speaker 01

  If people knew how much stuff I put in the dishwasher.

• 42:47Speaker 00

  Listen, I would love to give a tutorial on how to care for a cast iron pan.

• 42:52Speaker 01

  That would be fun.

• 42:53Speaker 00

  I have cast, my father used a cast iron pan that was his mother's that he used, she used when they were growing up.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  That's cool.

• 43:03Speaker 00

  And if you saw it, it looks exactly the same.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Is it smooth, is it like shiny?

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Yes, perfect. It's beautiful.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  That's really cool.

• 43:09Speaker 00

  You never put soap.

• 43:10Speaker 01

  I have a friend who only, who doesn't ever wet their cast iron. They only use very, very coarse salt and a ton of scrubbing.

• 43:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, you have to.

• 43:19Speaker 01

  Never water.

• 43:20Speaker 00

  You do, you know, this idea that if it's better, you should season it every once in a while, too, you know, by putting.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  And when you say that, you'd mean olive oil in the oven?

• 43:28Speaker 00

  Hot, yeah, very hot.

• 43:31Speaker 00

  The number three thing that I've been enjoying lately is, I think I do enjoy it. I think I'm going to say I'm enjoying it, is the new season or the new, I don't think it's season, of the show Beef.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  I can't wait to start it.

• 43:46Speaker 00

  It's very dark, but there are these tiny little gestures and words that are so funny, so quietly weird and funny that I, I recommend it. I have watched two episodes, but I'm enjoying it.

• 44:08Speaker 01

  I think Carey Mulligan is just.

• 44:10Speaker 00

  She's great in this.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:12Speaker 00

  She's great.

• 44:12Speaker 01

  Oh, you had a review of Marty Supreme.

• 44:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was flying back from Boston yesterday and Marty Supreme, when I tried to watch it before, it was $20 to rent on Amazon or something. So I didn't watch, I've never seen it. I didn't see it for the Oscars, but it was free on Delta. I didn't like it. I couldn't, I felt like I was on a moving train and I couldn't get off and, you know, it was witty, of course, and move so quick. And maybe if you were in it, but I just, it was, I needed something slower and quieter.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  I walked out of Uncut Gems for a similar reason. I just was like, I needed to stop.

• 44:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:54Speaker 01

  I'm not enjoying it.

• 44:55Speaker 00

  I want to get off.

• 44:56Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 44:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. That's how I felt about Marty Supreme. And I didn't even finish it. I have 43 minutes left. Plane landed. I don't know if I'll go back.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  I watched the movie of Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy with Colin Firth. A pretty slow start, but then I very much enjoyed it.

• 45:15Speaker 00

  Um, well, Lauren, I have to go because I am going to start tracking an episode of Love right now.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Great. Talk to you next time.

• 45:25Speaker 00

  Bye bye.