S3 Ep273: Rey Rivera: A Cryptic Letter (Part 3)

Baltimore, 2006. A city buzzing with life suddenly became the backdrop to one of the most perplexing mysteries in recent history. Rey Rivera was a young, charismatic writer with big dreams and a loving wife by his side. He seemed to have it all. But on May 16th, he vanished without a trace, leaving behind nothing but a hurried phone call and a series of unanswered questions. Eight days later, his body was discovered in the most chilling and bizarre circumstances you could imagine- inside an unused conference room in the historic Belvedere Hotel. He appeared to have fallen from a significant height, crashing through the roof of the conference room. As the investigation into Rey’s death began, theories swirled; was it suicide, an accident or something far more sinister? Nothing was adding up, and the deeper investigators dug, the more tangled the mystery became. Rey had left his home abruptly that night, for seemingly no reason- why? What had led him to the Belvedere Hotel? And what secrets were hidden in a cryptic note found taped to his computer screen- a note filled with references to movies, codes and seemingly nonsensical musings? This is not just a story about a man’s life tragically ending, it is a journey into the unknown- a labyrinth of secrets, shadows and haunting questions that still linger almost two decades later. We're coming to CrimeCon Denver! Use our code CRIMEWEEKLY for 10% off your tickets!https://www.crimecon.com/CC25Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. ZipRecruiter.com/CrimeWeekly - Try ZipRecruiter for FREE!2. ProlonLife.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 15% off and a bonus gift!3. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we are diving into part three of the Rey Rivera case. And unless you have anything you want to talk about, we can dive right in.

• 0:25Derrick Levasseur?

  No, we, uh, big episode of traders last night. Um, I won't spoil it for anybody, but at some point, people keep saying we should, uh, I don't think you're watching it, right? You're not watching.

• 0:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not caught up, but I am watching.

• 0:38Derrick Levasseur?

  But last night was a big thing. I won't spoil it. I know you guys said you want us to talk about it a little bit here, but, uh, we'll save it for another day. We got more important things to talk about today.

• 0:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Rey Rivera, we talked about last episode, how, um, his fiance, well, his wife at that point, Allison, she had gone to Virginia for a work trip. Um, everything was fine with Ray when she left. He put her in the car, kissed her goodbye. She drove to Virginia, but when she got there and she started texting and calling him, he didn't respond. So she called a friend of hers who was staying with Ray and Allison for a few days. And this friend said, oh, yeah. Ray got a call. He answered it. He said, oh, shit. He rushed out of the house. Now, the next time we, we know anything about Ray, they find him dead in this kind of closed down

• 1:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  office space area that used to be the pool area of the Belvedere Hotel, but they turned the Belvedere into condominiums. And then at that time, they also sort of changed that pool area into some office space. The office space across from the room where Ray was found was occupied at that time, but the office space that he was found in was not occupied at that time. And, uh, we're kind of going to go over. Some parts of the investigation, the autopsy, we're even going to touch on some theories. And then next episode, which will be our last episode in this series, we're going to go deeper into the theories and we're also going to touch on the very weird encrypted note that Ray left behind.

• 2:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  And next episode, we're going to dive even deeper into what that note could have possibly meant. So these next two episodes are going to be very information packed. Just bear with us and then at the end of everything, we're going to kind of give our final thoughts as usual.

• 2:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And where I left last episode, for me, it was a couple of highlights. I know we're going to talk about how Ray could have ended up in that area, how he got there. Did he fall? Did he jump? Was he thrown from a helicopter? All these different theories, we're going to talk about that. But I thought one compelling piece of information that is a head scratcher for me is that we know the phone call he received before leaving that building came from the switchboard at that building.

• 2:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  The phone call he received before leaving home came from the headquarters of Agora. Yeah.

• 2:55Derrick Levasseur?

  So before leaving home, he received a call from the Agora switchboard, right? So somebody within that building.

• 3:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Somebody within the building or one of its, one of Agora's many, many, many subsidiaries, because all of the calls would, would go through that switchboard.

• 3:10Derrick Levasseur?

  I shouldn't say building, I should say company, right? Somebody with that, from that, from that company. And what's concerning to me, if you're going to believe that this was a suicide, you would think someone would have came forward and said, yeah, no, I can, I know we don't know who that call came from, but I can tell you it was me. I called him. I called him to tell him this or whatever. And, you know, he was laid on something or whatever the case may be, just, hey, just let me put that one to rest. It was me. I called him. Now, why this person wouldn't come forward, I don't know. I mean, maybe they didn't come forward because they didn't want to be implicated in something they didn't do. Maybe they have come forward, maybe law enforcement has already confirmed who in fact spoke to Ray before he left,

• 3:52Derrick Levasseur?

  but they just haven't released that information publicly. That's also very possible. But from a viewer's perspective, I would like to know that because not knowing, knowing that information, it could be interpreted as someone calls him and says, hey, We need you over here for something. If something came up and you better get down here right now, Ray gets there and then they set him up and they kill him. So that's what you're left to deduce based on the lack of information, which is why we're here today. That's why there's so much mystery surrounding this case. But that was a big point for me in the storyline last week.

• 4:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I agree. I agree. And I mean, I feel like by this time, because there's so much speculation and so much, you know, conspiracy talk, if law enforcement truly was like, hey, he did this to himself and somebody came forward and admitting to having made that call and it wasn't to lure him out of his house, it was for this, a completely unrelated thing. They don't even have to release the name of the person. But that has not happened. So I feel like the police were were able to release that a call came from, like they were able to fuel the fire, but not clarify. They don't know. I agree.

• 4:59Derrick Levasseur?

  That's my guess. I mean, I have nothing to base that off of, but to your point, they said where it came from, but not who it came from, which that's probably means they don't know. I think they would have dispelled that rumor if they knew.

• 5:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I really 100% agree because there has been a lot of speculation attached to this.

• 5:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Especially with all the scrutiny they're getting. I mean, they've came to the conclusion that he killed himself. Well, put out the information that proves that. If this is a closed investigation, right? They've decided that he killed himself. Release everything.

• 5:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yeah, I mean, they didn't necessarily, well, we'll get there.

• 5:37Derrick Levasseur?

  It's undetermined as of right now. I get it. But still.

• 5:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I'm sure they're not actively still investigating it.

• 5:42Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, no, they've moved on.

• 5:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly. So as the investigation into Rey Rivera's death unfolded, different accounts of the situation began to emerge with the narrative shifting depending on who was telling the story. According to the police, they conducted a thorough search of the Belvedere Hotel, questioning employees and residents to determine if anyone had seen or heard anything related to Ray's disappearance. However, they claimed no one had any relevant information. Contradicting this, author Makita Bratman asserts that she was never approached. By the authorities, nor were any of the residents that she spoke to while researching her book into Rey's death. If the police had questioned her, she could have shared

• 6:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  important information. In her book, she writes, quote, "Later that night, lying in bed, I suddenly remembered something. About a week ago, around 10:00 at night, while we were reading in bed, Dee and I heard a loud noise outside. It was loud enough to make the windows shake in their frames, loud enough to make me get out of bed, go over and look down into the street to see if there had been a car crash. The Belvedere stands on the intersection of two busy streets in the middle of an area with plenty of bars and restaurants. It can be noisy at weekends, but this was a weeknight and the streets were quiet. Seeing nothing and hearing nothing more, we quickly dismissed the crash as just another of those inexplicable noises in the night. I had made a note of the mysterious noise in my journal. It had

• 7:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  occurred on the previous Tuesday, May 16th, the day Rey Rivera went missing." End quote. So Makita Brotman is sort of speculating here. Well, was that crash that I heard, was that Ray going through the ceiling of the Belvedere? Was that him jumping? And that would have been around 10 o'clock at night. Additionally, Brotman recounts that after Ray's body was removed for autopsy and the police concluded their investigation, she went to the scene, expecting it to be secured with tape or under police watch. Instead, she found the door to the vacant office space propped open, seemingly to air out to the area. There was no security presence, meaning anyone could enter freely. A separate account from a Reddit

• 7:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  user claiming to work for the Belvedere's catering company further supports the claim that the crime scene was never properly secured. According to this person, staff from both the catering service and a doctor's office located within the hotel were allowed inside the room, and they described the scene as gruesome, with what appeared to be red paint splattered on the walls and the space filled with maggots and flies. Now, these details suggest that from the very beginning, law enforcement at least, treated the case as an open and shut suicide rather than conducting a thorough investigation. And it's funny because I just called Derek the other day. Because I'm doing a case for my channel that's very similar. A young man died.

• 8:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  The police never actually kind of called it, you know, a self inflicted death, but investigated it that way. And the, the young man's mother was very upset about this because before they did any investigation, before they pulled surveillance, before they looked at his credit card statements, before they even had his phone, the police were basically treating the crime scene, treating the body and treating the investigation as if there was no foul play. And this is within hours of, of finding the body. So I said to Derek, like, I, I know the answer to this, but this isn't run of the mill to do this. I, I know you've told me before, you always have to investigate as if there could possibly be foul play.

• 9:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  That way, if something pops up later, you did your due diligence in those first hours, in those first days, and now you have that supporting evidence. Whereas security and surveillance footage can delete after a few days or seven days. You know, things, things like that, that evidence can go away. And then, once you do deem that maybe something nefarious happened, or maybe there was foul play, you can't retrieve that information or that evidence anymore. And you were pretty much like, yeah, that, that's what you should do. It seems protocol to treat every investigation as if you do not know what happened, even if you think you know what happened. Am I incorrect?

• 9:53Derrick Levasseur?

  This wouldn't be the first time something like this happened in an investigation. You, you have officers who go in there, they feel like they know what happened. Maybe it was an overdose or an accident. And so they gather that information based on that. And they maybe don't put the full force behind their investigation because they're like, oh, this one, we already know what happened, right? Then the body goes off to the pathologist. Pathologist comes back and says, oh yeah, no, this person has a broken neck. This is definitely a homicide. And they're like, Oh shit. What do we do now? Because you can't go back and reprocess that crime scene. It's too late. It's already been released. It's already been contaminated. There's nothing you can do now. So why wouldn't you just treat it? Worst case scenario, and then if it turns out to be what you think it could be,

• 10:37Derrick Levasseur?

  then that's fine. It maybe took you an extra hour or so to process it a little bit more intently to make sure that you got everything. And by the way, if you had processed it properly, maybe you would have found the piece of evidence to suggest that it wasn't just what it looks like. So yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. There is a, you know, human element to these things and people can become complacent. And we see it all the time in a lot of different jobs, but it can't happen in a criminal investigation because you only get one shot at it. Once that scene is released, it's over. Even if you go back and find something, at that point, it's going to be questioned, which we've seen in many cases.

• 11:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like Karen Reed, right? We just did Karen Reed.

• 11:16Derrick Levasseur?

  I wasn't gonna say it.

• 11:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, I know. You want to.

• 11:20Derrick Levasseur?

  She's like Karen Reed. And that's my point. Like, I know.

• 11:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  But like, if police had collected surveillance footage within the first days, then we wouldn't be speculating about those things.

• 11:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Less holes to poke in the investigation. But when you go back after the fact, like for, and we're not making it about this, but let's just say for this argument, that Karen Reed did in fact, strike John O'Keefe. Well, it doesn't matter now because they did such a shitty job with the investigation. Nobody's ever gonna believe that.

• 11:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Or, or without, you know, without reasonable doubt, nobody will believe it.

• 11:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, you went back and you found the glass after it was released? Come on. It doesn't work. It doesn't work.

• 11:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So the issue of surveillance in this case, as well as many others, it further adds to the inconsistencies. Police collected video recordings from inside the Belvedere, but claimed that their rooftop camera, the one most likely to have captured Ray's movements, was not functioning at the time. A news article published a year after Rey's death stated, quote, "The Belvedere Hotel has an extensive security camera system, but technical problems prevented police from recovering the data from the cameras on the day in question." Now, these cameras were working the day before Rey's death. They were working the day after, but not the day of, allegedly, which, once again, whether this is.

• 12:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just a happenstance, a coincidence, it adds fuel to the fire when you're dealing with a case so mysterious that there's, you know, conspiracy theories swirling around out there. Whenever the cameras aren't working, there's questions of why? Why are they not working?

• 12:55Derrick Levasseur?

  So frustrating and it happens all the time. I can't tell you how many times you'll have that high where as a detective, you're like, "Oh, there's a camera, yes." And then it's either the DVR isn't working or the camera isn't working or it's a dummy cam. It's so demoralizing. It's the worst feeling ever.

• 13:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  But listen, the Unsolved Mysteries episode into Rey's case presents a different version of events. The show reports that while investigators were able to review security footage from inside the hotel on May 16th and 17th, the rooftop camera was not malfunctioning, it was unplugged. Unplugged, not malfunctioning. Brotman, Makita Brotman, the author, also provides another perspective in her book. She claims the police held on to the footage for weeks, implying that it must have contained something significant. She writes, quote, "When it was finally returned to the Belvedere, Gary Shivers sat with Allison Rivera in the concierge booth and watched the footage with her. She was there for a long time. The tapes covered a period until the night before Ray went missing.

• 13:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Then it jumped to more current footage, as if someone had deleted the night of May 16th." End quote. So either way, whether the security cameras were malfunctioning, whether they were unplugged, whether somebody deleted that footage, by the time Allison Rivera sees it, you've got footage from the day before, footage from the day after, but the, the day and the time in question, completely gone, completely missing, ironically, coincidentally, whatever way you want to look at it.

• 14:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I would need to know more details on this because it could be easily verified or easily disproved. How? Well, if the DVR is working. And this particular camera that's on the roof is operating the day before and then all of a sudden it just goes black. It's still gonna record. It's just gonna record black the whole time. So you'd be able to see that, okay, clearly, at this moment, something happened to that individual camera. Then you would be able to fast forward and see if that camera came back online. Or did it continue to be malfunctioning? And that's something where you could look in the records, you could see if there was a problem with that camera. Did someone come out to perform maintenance on it? Or is it exactly the way you're describing it right now?

• 15:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Where the footage from that camera is all there up until the day before Ray dies? And then the footage from that camera is there again after Ray dies? If that's exactly what happened, what are we talking about here? Clearly, somebody tampered with the camera, right? My concern is that that's not what actually happened. This is a theory. It may be speculation. It may be rumors. I would need to see that proof to show that because if that's what happened, let me just take it at face value right now. And clearly, somebody tampered with the camera. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. I just feel like sometimes the truth can be lost as it's being relayed.

• 15:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who would know that information? The Belvedere? The police?

• 15:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Everybody. I mean, everybody should. So if the camera was malfunctioning, it may not have been discovered until after Ray's incident.

• 15:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the media says malfunctioning.

• 16:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 16:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Unsolved mystery says it was unplugged.

• 16:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And how do they know that?

• 16:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I would assume from their investigation.

• 16:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And that's what I'm saying. Who was the investigator? How did they get access to this information? What brought them to that conclusion? Was the camera in question working immediately after Ray's incident? Is that what we are supposed to believe? If that's what happened where the footage is just missing from that night in question or that day in question, and then miraculously the camera started working again? Well, then it wasn't malfunctioning, was it? Somebody, somebody did something to that camera to make it stop working. Now, if the camera wasn't working before and after the incident and continued not to work, and they didn't discover that it wasn't working until this incident, that, that makes sense. I've seen that a million times where I walk into a business and I'm like, hey,

• 16:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I need your camera footage from yesterday. And they're like, yeah, no problem. They walk into the back room and they're like, uh, yeah, the DVR hasn't been recording for like a week and I didn't notice it. I just didn't check it.

• 17:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, it was working the day before his death. We do know that.

• 17:10Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's what I'm talking about. What was working the day before? That specific camera?

• 17:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 17:15Derrick Levasseur?

  So that specific camera was working? And then all of a sudden it stopped working, right? And, and we're also to believe that it was working after the incident? It started working again?

• 17:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  The day after, which could have been because they then figured out that it wasn't working, so they made it work.

• 17:32Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and how did they make it work?

• 17:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know. They fixed whatever, but they don't, they don't say.

• 17:36Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's, that's what I'm saying. Again, it goes back to not knowing? Because it would be a simple explanation in a police report or in a, in some type of maintenance report from the Belvedere where they would say, hey, we noticed after this incident that the camera wasn't working. Upon inspection, we noticed that one of the cables had been manually unplugged. Boom. Mystery solved. Somebody unplugged that camera intentionally. Now you can start to extrapolate from there to say-

• 18:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, you could say that it got unplugged accidentally.

• 18:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that would be based on the environment, right? Is this a closed box environment where someone would physically have to open it to unplug it? Is this something where they'd have to go to the camera and get on a ladder and unplug it? How easily accessible was that? These are all questions that need to be answered to make your determination.

• 18:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm gonna look more into it and then get back to you next week.

• 18:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, it's a great question, right? I mean, at the end of the day, if this camera is, if it's proven that this camera was manually- tampered with, then, I mean, we have something here.

• 18:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm gonna find everything I can about it and then we will, we will revisit that next week.

• 18:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we have to know the source. If unsolved mysteries, from my experience, unsolved mysteries doesn't have a team of investigators that are out there really working, it's more producers. I say that from someone who does these type of shows. They don't usually have investigators going out there, putting that much work into it. I wonder where they got that information from. That would be important.

• 19:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's a good question. And I will try to answer it to the best of my ability.

• 19:05Derrick Levasseur?

  I know you will.

• 19:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  If anybody in the comments who's listening or watching has something to add, throw it in there and I'll check that out.

• 19:12Derrick Levasseur?

  But if that camera was working after the incident without anybody documenting it, that's, that's concerning.

• 19:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we're going to talk a little bit about the autopsy, but before we kind of switch gears, let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 19:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back and Detective Michael Bayer, he was the lead investigator on this case. And he described Rey Rivera's autopsy report as particularly disturbing. The extent of Ray's injuries was shocking. Severe cranial fractures indicating a high velocity impact, extensive brain injuries consistent with a fall or other traumatic event. Multiple rib fractures, 24 in total, some of which punctured internal organs such as his lungs and heart. A fractured pelvis, two major breaks in the right leg with the bone protruding through the skin. Severe lacerations on both sides of the body, one measuring seven inches, the other measuring nine. Lacerations and abrasions present across the torso.

• 20:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Injuries to the groin area, which is unusual and not easily explained by a fall. So the medical examiner noted that while most injuries were consistent with the fall, the way that Ray's shins were broken did not fit typical fall patterns. And the extent of the damage seemed excessive, even for a fall from a significant height. For a man as fit and strong as Ray, standing at 6'5" and weighing 160 pounds, the severity of his injuries was difficult to comprehend. And despite the extensive trauma. The case was ruled a suicide, even though the case did remain open. However, Ray's wife, Allison, did not accept that conclusion. Determined to understand what really happened, she arranged a meeting with the medical examiner who conducted Ray's autopsy. According to Allison,

• 20:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  the examiner expressed doubts about the case, telling her, quote, "I know what they're trying to do, and we are not closing the case," end quote. Though the examiner was unable or unwilling to share further details, she did reveal to Allison that, like I said, while most of Ray's injuries were consistent with the fall, there was that one major exception, the way that his shins were broken. The significance of this detail was left unexplained, but it was notable enough that the medical examiner officially classified the cause of death as inconclusive, rather than a suicide. Marie Dweenheimer, a certified medical examiner who did her training at Johns Hopkins and who creates medical illustrations and animations for educational

• 21:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  materials, accidents, homicides, and complex situations, so that authorities can see what happened from a different angle, she argues that some of Ray's injuries do not appear to result from an individual who suffered from an 11 to 14-story fall. Dweenheimer says that although brutal, much of the damage to Ray's body doesn't align with what she has seen in similar cases. She said that falling victims who land feet-first usually have severe foot injuries, and a majority of the injuries are not predominantly on one side of the body, and Ray's injuries were mostly on the right side of his body. Dweenheimer believes that Ray's injuries are far more consistent with the person who was beaten to death or hit by a car. Forensics expert Miriam Moya agrees. Moya specializes in traffic accidents, impact

• 22:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  biomechanics, and crime scenes, and she points out that the broken strap on Ray's right flip-flop corresponds to how most of his injuries were on the right side of his body. She also feels the state of his body was more consistent with a beating or being hit by a car, and this is going to really come in when we talk about the theories next episode.

• 22:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I can see it.

• 22:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if Ray did fall or jump, the next question would be, how did he get up to that location from which he supposedly jumped? The police claimed that after reviewing the available footage, they did not see Ray enter the Belvedere Hotel at all that day. So if he wasn't recorded entering the hotel, how would he have made it to the rooftop?

• 23:04Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a great question.

• 23:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Law enforcement considered three possible locations where Ray could have jumped from. Obviously, the very top of the Belvedere Hotel, that would be one. The second would be the upper parking garage where his friends had been when they spotted the hole and his shoes. And then the third possibility would be the 11th floor ledge. So let's go over the possibilities of each of these theories. The Belvedere's rooftop is shaped like a squared off C, meaning if Ray had jumped from there, he would have had to have launched himself from the inside part of that structure. The biggest problem is that the hole in the lower rooftop was about 45 feet out from the edge of the Belvedere's rooftop. This is a nearly impossible distance to cover, even with a running jump.

• 23:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  A few key factors make this scenario even less likely. Ray was wearing flip flops, which provide poor traction, obviously not ideal for a sprint. An engineering study of Ray's case showed that based on distance, Ray would have had to have run at least 11 miles an hour to reach where his body was found. Therefore, it's really not believed that Ray could have been pushed or fallen off the roof of the Belvedere based on how far the hole was from where the roof of the Belvedere is. If he had jumped off the 13-story roof, Ray would have had really a short distance with many obstacles that would be in his way if he was going to run that fast in flip flops and then jump 45 feet to reach where the hole was located.

• 24:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  So for some context, in 1991, Mike Powell set the long jump world record, and that record was for 29.425 feet. Powell was also wearing proper footwear when he set this record. So is it likely that Rey Rivera beat Powell's record in flip flops? You know, like-

• 24:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Awesome. I mean, that's a great, great commercial for those flip flops.

• 24:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  And the flip flops were, you know, one of them was broken. Obviously, the strap was, was broken when they were found. So that's, that's strange. And if he had jumped from the 13 story roof, why would his phone and sunglasses have remained unbroken? Even the, um, one of the police officers or he was a retired commander. They, they were like, hey, is that possible that his sunglasses and his cell phone one had been broken or even scratched? And he was like, I guess, but in my opinion, it's highly unlikely that that would have happened.

• 25:21Derrick Levasseur?

  So, so just real quick, just, and I, I'm not a physics major, but it, I will say just to throw out another theory. What if he took the sandals off?

• 25:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  He could have, but still, are you beating the long jump record over 10 feet in bare feet?

• 25:36Derrick Levasseur?

  No, but from what I was hearing from you earlier, maybe I focused on the wrong piece of, uh, data, but you said he would have to be running at 11 miles per hour when he made that jump. And that's, that's not impossible because I know he's, Rey Rivera was in incredible shape. He was not somebody, not your typical like guy who's sitting on the couch. He was an athlete for sure. I mean, he's, and he's got a long stride and he's six, five. And I know professional athletes, I'm talking like NFL players, like, I mean, top athletes in the world. Obviously Ray wasn't that. They, they reach approximately 22 miles per hour when they're sprinting. So is it possible for Ray to be half that? I think so.

• 26:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know his physical, you know, capabilities, but I would think he'd be able to get to 11, 12 miles per hour. And if he had taken his sandals off and held them and sprinted, wouldn't that be possible? And I'm not saying I believe this, but I'm just throwing it out there. Like if the people in our comments have that question, is that possible that he ran in bare feet with his sandals in his hands and, and leaped off the building?

• 26:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  But the, the main roof part isn't really long enough for him to even have, I, I guess, gotten the

• 26:46Derrick Levasseur?

  The, the, to get up to that speed?

• 26:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, to, to do that. And like I said, The long jump record in 1991 is 29 feet. He's jumping 45.

• 26:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, 45 feet, but from a distance of what 40 feet in the air. So as he's going out, he would kind of be gradually making that distance toward the hole. He wouldn't have done it like.

• 27:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Don't you think you would lose velocity when you stop running and maybe?

• 27:15Derrick Levasseur?

  No, you pick velocity up. So when you jump out the building, if you're jumping out, this is getting so deep for us because we're not smart enough to.

• 27:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, we are not.

• 27:23Derrick Levasseur?

  But but you're jumping off the building. You're not, once you're jumping out, projecting yourself forward, as you're coming down, I would think you're still coming down as at an angle, not straight down, and could over that distance of dropping 45, 40 feet, 40 to 45 feet, make that distance over. Again, we're talking apples and orange with Powell. Powell's running in a straight line and jumping 29 feet in the long jump that way. What he's doing is incredible because he's on the same plane where he started and he's landing. Ray would have been jumping off a building, giving him an extreme advantage to make that distance up as he's falling. Again, this is way above my pay grade for sure.

• 28:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is also just one theory, right? Because we don't, we don't know where he jumped from. So this is, did he jump from the roof of the Belvedere?

• 28:13Derrick Levasseur?

  And by the way, I'm not dispelling this rumor. I just think this is a great conversation because as we're all trying to navigate this, these are the conversations we have to have, like, and some of it might not even make sense. Some of you might be screaming in the comments going, no, Derek, that's not possible because of this, this, and this. I wish you guys were here to sit around a table with us to have that and to push back because I don't know. But these are some of the things as a listener, hearing this detail, these details for the first time, these are my first thoughts. And I think. I'm probably not the only one asking these questions. I'm just, I'm just the one that has a microphone right now. So I'm able to ask it, but by no means I'm like saying this isn't possible. Those are just some of the things I think about.

• 28:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I think based on all of the available data, plus knowing that the Belvedere was one of the tallest buildings in the city for years, and Ray did have a fear of heights. Would he voluntarily climb to the top of that building and then jumped? It might not be super likely that that was the location that he jumped from. Both Allison and the lead detective, Detective Bayer, they firmly believe Ray did not jump from this height based on, on what they know.

• 29:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, okay.

• 29:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  The second theory suggested that Ray might have jumped from the parking garage adjacent to the Belvedere. This happens to be the location I believe he was at. Now, do I think he jumped? That's not what we're talking about right now. I believe he was at this location. It would have been easier for him to get to this parking garage without having to enter the Belvedere. He may not have been picked up on surveillance going to this parking garage. This is where his friends were when they saw the hole, and the top of the garage was only 20 feet above the hole in the lower roof, which is significantly closer than the rooftop of the Belvedere. However, Detective Bayer believed that a fall from this height, even factoring in the impact of breaking through the roof, would have been survivable. That raise injuries wouldn't have been as extensive. So they

• 30:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  actually quickly ruled this scenario out. But here's my thought. This was a parking structure. So let's say somebody lured Ray there, and then as he's standing there waiting for them, somebody comes with a car and speeds up to him, hits him, and that propels him off the, the parking garage into the roof below. Because this was a parking area, so there's going to be cars allowed up there. And that would also give more credibility because yeah, if he had fallen or jumped from that height, they don't think his injuries would have been extensive. But if he'd been slammed into by a car,

• 30:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  then, which a lot of these forensic experts say his injuries are more consistent with, then that would make more sense because he would have been injured even before he fell through that hole or in made the hole in the roof below him.

• 31:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, I think that's possible as well. I think it's a good theory. I just don't understand how Detective Bear comes to that conclusion when we see people all the time just get punched and hit the ground the wrong way and crack their head off the sidewalk and die from it.

• 31:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dude, he had like several broken, I mean, it was bad.

• 31:20Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know how he says, oh, no, I don't think he would have died from that. Dude, he went through the roof. What are you talking about?

• 31:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think it's more, it's more on the fact that like as many injuries as he had, that he wouldn't have experienced all of those from just falling through the roof.

• 31:37Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a better argument than based on the height he fell from and where he fell from that he would, he would have survived.

• 31:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, that was part of Bayer's reasoning was given the severity of Ray's injuries, he, he ruled the scenario out.

• 31:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, that, that's, I can, I can, I'm more with that.

• 31:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  He ruled the scenario of Ray jumping from that location out and having, but I'm saying if there was a car there and that car slammed into him, which then threw him off the roof.

• 32:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Which is possible.

• 32:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  That, that could be an explanation for his injuries and where he landed.

• 32:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 32:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the third possibility was the 11th floor ledge of the Belvedere, which wraps around the building from the right position on this ledge. The location of the hole would have aligned more logically. However, reaching this ledge presented several major obstacles. To access it, Ray would have needed to enter the Belvedere Hotel, something that the surveillance footage did not confirm that he did. Even more challenging, he would have had to have gone through someone's office or apartment to reach a window as there was no hallway windows leading to the ledge. Additionally, the building's 11th floor windows were small and some of them didn't even fully open. Those that did could only only be opened halfway, making it very difficult for someone to climb out, especially someone as tall as Ray.

• 32:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, the ledge itself was extremely narrow, ornate, and dangerously high, making it difficult to maneuver without falling off. To make matters more concerning, there's no indication that the police dusted the 11th floor windows for Ray's fingerprints, or checked with residents and office occupants to see if he had been inside the building or was seen as a visitor by someone that day. If Ray had accessed the ledge, there should have been some physical evidence of his presence, but it seems that line of investigation was never thoroughly pursued. It's also worth noting, there was no blood or flesh on the hole in the second floor roof, right? Once again, given Ray's injuries, you would think if that the most of them were sustained

• 33:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  from the fall, when he crashed through that, that ceiling, it would have left injuries on him, which would have then left blood and some of his skin or flesh attached to the jagged hole of that roof. But that, that was not the case.

• 33:52Derrick Levasseur?

  So what does that, what does that mean to you?

• 33:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think he jumped off the ledge. First of all, that's terrifying, even for somebody who doesn't have a fear of heights. This is a very like narrow ledge. You'd have to really like press yourself against the building and sort of inch over to get to the location where you wanted to jump from. And like, like I just said, it was very difficult to get out of these windows. Ray was tall, so maneuvering his body out of the window and, and being able to hold on to the ledge while he did it would have been very difficult. I just don't see why he would have done that. I don't think that the 11th floor ledge is a plausible kind of location.

• 34:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I'm not buying that theory either. I, I think, there's a couple of things I want to break down here. So if, if this was a suicide, I, I, we would have saw him on camera, he probably would have left a note, and it would have been some. Some evidence of him getting up to that floor, but there's nothing. And so I think that one's out. And I think just the way, if you're gonna do it, it just, not to try to be crass, but there's easier ways to kill yourself than than how complicated this scenario is. But I was more referring to your information regarding no blood or flesh being found around the hole, because wouldn't that be applicable to all three scenarios that you discussed, not just the 11th floor?

• 35:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 35:15Derrick Levasseur?

  So what is that? So my question is, what does that tell you?

• 35:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know. What does it tell you?

• 35:19Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know. I mean, I think there are times where based on how it happens, even though you would expect to see something a certain way, it may be absent. I think what I leave right now, and we have a lot more to cover, is you're talking about a scenario where either Ray decided in the moment to kill himself, and he may have ran off something and said, you know, I'm over it, I'm done. Or Ray was running from someone, and maybe saw the roof and said, I can make this jump. I'm gonna land on this roof. I might break my legs, but I'm gonna land on this roof and this person who's chasing me, or these people who are chasing me, aren't gonna be able to follow. He misjudged the jump.

• 35:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Miscalculated, yeah.

• 35:59Derrick Levasseur?

  And it resulted in his death. Or, as you alluded to, and as investigators have thought about, he was struck by a car, which would explain the distance that he traveled, which would explain the footwear coming off, which is something you commonly see in an accident with a pedestrian, even when they have sneakers on, they can come right out of their shoes. So I think that's where I'm leaning right now, where he intentionally did this. But I do wonder, was it suicide that he was attempting to do? That's the question here. What was his mindset in that moment? Because it's not an indication that he wanted to kill himself, but could he have been running from someone? And that's what resulted in his death. I think that's also a plausible scenario where he was being chased. And in that moment, out of fear, he jumped off the building to try to to get away from these people.

• 36:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, yes.

• 36:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Just where I'm at right now. That could change, but that's where I am right now.

• 36:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, the strange discoveries surrounding Rey Rivera's case did not end there. After receiving the devastating news that her husband had been found dead, Allison became determined to uncover the truth about what had happened to him. Now, she obviously never believed that Ray had taken his own life. Neither did anyone in his family. But before continuing, I do think it's important to acknowledge that in many cases ruled as suicides, friends and family often do insist they would never do that. It's a natural response.

• 37:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course.

• 37:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  No one wants to believe their loved one would willingly end their own life. However, in Ray's case, there were kind of specific pieces of evidence suggesting that he was actively planning for the future, which raises serious doubts about the idea that he would have intentionally jumped from a building. So for instance, at the time of their disappearance, Ray and Allison had just put their house on the market. They were preparing to move back to California. He'd only been married seven months. He was looking forward to the future with Allison. Everybody that, you know, was talked to, they said he was so looking forward to having kids and being a dad. Like that was part of the part of married life he was looking forward to the most, starting a family. He wanted kids. He talked about it all the time. Additionally,

• 38:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  on the day he had vanished, Ray had booked that editing suite to complete a work project. He'd already invested $70,000 into this project, covering travel to Delray Beach, purchasing equipment, other expenses. And when I say $70,000, not just into this project, but into his new video production company. And this was money that was charged to Allison's credit card with the understanding that it would be reimbursed once he delivered the completed DVDs. However, obviously, after his death, this project was never finished. And as a result, the Oxford Club never received the DVDs they'd promised to their subscribers. And Allison was never reimbursed for that money that Ray had spent, leaving her to shoulder

• 38:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  that financial burden. And it seems unlikely, knowing how much Ray loved Allison, worried about her, wanted to take care of her. Ray, knowing this, would have willingly left his wife in such a precarious financial position. It doesn't really match with his character and who he was. He would have made sure, at least to finish that project, get the money back before he left the world.

• 39:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it doesn't really align. And I agree. And in some instances, and I think I might have alluded to this in an earlier episode. If there's a family member who who knows that person better than anyone, they in some cases, yes, as you said, they'll deny they they don't want to believe that their loved one could have killed themselves. But it also, I would say that a lot of people say there's things you guys didn't know. He or she was going through a lot. There was a lot more behind the scenes that you were unaware of. He was in a bad place, or she was in a bad place. And that's this does align with what had been transpiring behind closed doors. But but I agree with what was being said here. It just it seems like Ray had a lot going on at that time.

• 39:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, a lot of irons in the what is it called?

• 39:47Derrick Levasseur?

  A lot of irons in the fire.

• 39:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  A lot of irons in the fire.

• 39:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And not only did he have a lot going on, but not only was he leaving her in a really difficult situation, but what's the incentive here? What was going on at that moment where he felt like it was better for him to no longer be around? I just I don't it doesn't align with what we know on the surface. And I don't see why she would, at this point, lie about it and say, oh, you know, there were things going on. What would be the incentive of that? I think she would just go away and say, you know, behind closed doors, yeah, there was a lot going on in Ray's head. I don't you know, I don't know why he just didn't get the help he needed, you know, but that's not what she's saying.

• 40:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  And as we know, Ray Nelson were planning a trip to Mexico was just two weeks after this, something Porter Stansberry had mentioned after Ray went missing. And typically, when someone is contemplating suicide, they don't make detailed plans for the future, because in their mind, that future just it doesn't exist.

• 40:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Can I ask you a question?

• 40:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 40:39Derrick Levasseur?

  As a writer yourself, you know, and maybe I'm just I'm making too much of a leap here. But as Ray being a writer, you would think that if this was something that was premeditated, that he had planned on taking his own life, you would have thought that he would have left her something, that he would have left her something, at least something written down to explain why he was deciding to do this. It just seems out of character.

• 41:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  He did leave something in writing, which we're gonna get into.

• 41:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, you had alluded to that. I don't know what that is. But it's a suicide note or my?

• 41:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I mean, the FBI doesn't think it's a suicide note.

• 41:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, okay. Well, all right, I'll start, I'll stop. But you see where my head's going with this. You would think it'd be very obvious he would leave something behind.

• 41:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I completely agree. You love this woman. You owe her that. Ray Ray felt a great. Yeah, Ray Ray felt a great not debt to the people he loved, but. He felt that, you know, he owed them a lot and especially Allison, everything that they had been through together, everything they had built together, everything they were planning together. You definitely 100% think he would have sat down and wrote something or typed something up saying, you know, I'm sorry, I know that your heart's going to be broken by this, you're going to be devastated by this. I just want to explain why and I know it's not going to make you feel better, but at least you'll, you'll know where I was at mentally with this. I agree. Yeah. So let's take a quick break and then we're going to, to come back and talk about what

• 42:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ray did leave behind in writing, not necessarily for Allison, maybe for someone else. Okay, so we're back and obviously Allison, at this point, she's determined to find answers. And what else is she going to do? She probably can't sleep, she probably can't eat, she probably can't sit down and be still for five seconds. So she just starts scouring their house for any clue that might explain what had happened to Ray. And that's when she made the startling discovery of a note taped to the side of Ray's desktop computer in his office. But this was not a traditional goodbye note. There was no explanations, no apologies, no farewells.

• 42:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Instead, the note was bizarre and deeply mysterious. The note had been typed out, but the font was shrunken down so that multiple pages could fit onto a single seven inch long sheet of paper. And then it had been folded and folded and folded into an even smaller size before being taped to the computer, as if it was meant to be hidden and discovered later. Even more puzzling, the right side of the paper had been carefully trimmed, leaving no blank spaces. And in the trash can of Ray's office, Allison found the scraps of the cut paper, which led her to believe that Ray had written and placed the note either on the day he disappeared or shortly before. This hadn't been there for weeks or months, essentially.

• 43:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. Now, the contents of the note would only add to the mystery surrounding Rey's death. The note starts off by saying, quote, "Brothers and sisters, right now around the world volcanoes are erupting. What an awesome sight," end quote. The words that followed that sentence were in Latin. I'm not, I don't speak Latin, so we're going to do our best. Virtus jugxit mores non separabat. Basically, that means whom virtue unites, death will not separate. Ray continues in the note, saying, quote, "That was a well-played game. Congratulations to all who participated. I hope you enjoyed it, but it was time to

• 44:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  wake up, so here I am. I'd like to welcome those who accepted our invitations for membership during the game. We couldn't have done it without you. I took on this endeavor to find the truth, but not for its own sake in accepting this quest for the truth. I hoped to make myself with the help of others into a man worthy and ready to receive it. Members of the council, please note that I will lend careful consideration to the traditional responsibilities in light of these proceedings, and I will satisfy the standard request of the council within the appropriate time. Again, well done to all who participated. I expect the council has invited all the players who gave their lives to this pursuit back, so they might join us here," end quote.

• 44:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that's weird, right?

• 44:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah, here's, here's my conundrum, right?

• 44:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, we're not done with the no, by the way. This is just a main, like a one main part of it, the beginning.

• 45:05Derrick Levasseur?

  But just without hearing anything else, there are parts where I think about the actual incident of Ray jumping, or falling, or being thrown, or struck off this building. And I say, doesn't look like a suicide to me on the surface. But then you start to think about some of the other things that were happening outside of this, where he had some, it looked like there was some level of paranoia there. And this, so far, this letter, without hearing the rest of it, sounds like someone who may be creating something in their own mind. It just, I'm just telling you my initial observations. It sounds like someone who's going through something. It, to me, that's just my thought. And doesn't

• 45:48Derrick Levasseur?

  make a ton of sense. And then I start to go, okay, Derek, you don't think this could be a suicide, and you think he could have been running from someone potentially, is it also possible that he thought he was running from someone who wasn't there?

• 46:03Derrick Levasseur?

  And so this is where my brain keeps going back and forth. That's where I'm at right now. That's subject to change.

• 46:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  When Allison was reading this, you know, she, she said she saw that, that verse in Latin and she said she put it into Google. And the first thing that came up was the Freemasons and obviously we know.

• 46:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, I knew where this was going. Yeah.

• 46:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we, we know that he was curious about, you know, not just secret societies, but the Freemasons and author Makita Brotman said that in its Latin form, this phrase was used in ceremonies performed by the Knights Templar and is still inscribed on the inside of Masonic rings. So obviously at least this Latin verse has some ties back to the Freemasons and the whole, you know, brothers and sisters. Now, why would he say brothers and sisters? The Freemasons is a fraternal organization. Women do, do not join. It's just men. So is.

• 46:56Derrick Levasseur?

  No girls allowed.

• 46:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  No girls allowed. It's like a clubhouse. Is he referring to the Freemasons or is he referring to a, an organization or a secret society like the Freemasons that may have branched off of the Freemasons? And, and he's been a part of this. He's, he's talking to them, the council, as if he's a part of this. And then he says things like, you know, I hope you bring back some of our brothers and sisters who have given their lives and so they can rejoin us.

• 47:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then he writes a list of names after this, after he says, bring back, you know, some of the players who gave their lives to this pursuit, so they might join us here. Now, there's several names and the, the full letter has never been released, but there's been pictures. And so you have to zoom in, you have to really kind of decipher what's in there. But from the, the, the names that I could decipher, they include Tom Hickling, somebody named Rayburn and Stanley Kubrick. Some names are more difficult to decipher, but he appears to also have included somebody named Joan Tolini, someone named Donna, and Christopher Reeves, who's an actor. Remember Christopher Reeves, I believe.

• 48:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 48:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  He played Superman, right?

• 48:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. Yeah, it was in a tragic horse riding, uh, horseback riding accident and.

• 48:12Derrick Levasseur?

  He was a, he was basically paralyzed from the neck down, I believe.

• 48:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Tom Hickling, unlike Stanley Kubrick or Christopher Reeves, Tom Hickling was actually somebody that Ray knew. So Tom Hickling had been a friend of Ray's and a coworker at Agora, and he was a former youth pastor. He actually died in December of 2005, only six months before Ray died. And Tom died when he was visiting his daughter Holly in Zambia. She was working there as a relief worker, and Tom and Holly were driving in their car when it was struck by another vehicle. And sadly, you know, Holly did survive, thankfully, but Tom passed away. So the fact that Ray is including Tom's name in this letter, when

• 48:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  he's talking about bringing back some of the members who have played the game, who have given their lives in the pursuit of it, you have to start wondering, is he talking about bringing them back from the dead?

• 49:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 49:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because that's what it seems like.

• 49:09Derrick Levasseur?

  That's, and that's a problem. That's a problem when we're thinking about this being something more than a suicide, or something more than Ray's own mind playing tricks on him, which leads to his death eventually. That's, that's the problem here, because these things are not making a lot of sense. And even when you really just take out what was actually being said in the letter, it wouldn't be a letter that would be incriminating, that would lead people to who killed him. The letter's just a lot of weird stuff being taped to a laptop, and anybody who would read that letter, including Allison, it probably is not going to make a lot of sense to them. So if it was a letter that kind of described what was going on, and what he was involved in, and it was meant to be found later and

• 49:51Derrick Levasseur?

  be understood by the people that he cared about, that would be one thing. But this sounds like he's talking to someone, AKA the recipient of this letter, who never got it. He taped it to the back of his laptop. So that's, that's concerning.

• 50:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, his desktop. He taped.

• 50:06Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sorry, desktop. I'm sorry, it were desktop. But taped it to the back of his desktop, and did he expect it to be transmitted through the internet by being close to the ethernet cable?

• 50:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or maybe he would have somebody who knew that's where he would put his communication to this person.

• 50:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Were they going to come in his house and get it?

• 50:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 50:24Derrick Levasseur?

  You get, you hear what I'm saying? I'm not, I'm not completely disputing it. I'm just saying.

• 50:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think you're, but I think you're also kind of like, you're looking at it from a cop's perspective. You're looking at it from a very logical perspective, which is great. That's why you're here. Thank you. But there's, there's also things in the world that we just don't understand and don't know about. And, and there's things that happen, you know, that some people might call.

• 50:46Derrick Levasseur?

  The Freemasons is a very, unless it's another group, but from what I was seeing in the comments too, like the Freemasons, they're, they're a society, but they're not really in secret though. I mean, a lot of people publicly come out and say that.

• 50:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  They have their, their rituals and the things like that they do within, they are not a secret.

• 50:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 50:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  But the things that they do within their rituals and within their membership do remain secret. A lot of that stuff is secretive. Yes.

• 51:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. I mean, okay. So just at face value as the logical cop here, I guess, just looking at it, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me. He's referring to prominent actors who he clearly does not know.

• 51:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  But some people that he does know as well. Yeah.

• 51:18Derrick Levasseur?

  But, and then you also, you talked about Tom Hinkling, who he had referred to, and I thought you were leading to say, I thought you were about to tell me that he died in, you know, under some, some mysterious circumstances as well. Maybe a quote unquote, you know, suicide or something. And I would go, I was going to go, oh, not good, but it appears.

• 51:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or maybe he was targeted, right?

• 51:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, that he was targeted.

• 51:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Another car ran into his car while he was in.

• 51:41Derrick Levasseur?

  In Zambia?

• 51:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  In Zambia. Yeah. Who knows?

• 51:44Derrick Levasseur?

  I guess. I guess. Sure. I'll go with it for now.

• 51:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Stanley Kubrick also, you know, he died in his sleep after suffering a heart attack in 1999. But some people do believe that there's some mysterious elements to it because his death came just days after showing his final cut of the movie Eyes Wide Shut to Warner Bros., which obviously Eyes Wide Shut, if you've seen it, is a mysterious movie all on its own, right? It has to do with secret societies. It has to do with rituals and things like that. We are going to talk more about that next episode and what this letter could possibly mean, but right off the bat, it's definitely weird. And, and you, you do have to say like, is this somebody who's suffering from a mental break? Somebody who's suffering from delusions? Or is this somebody who got wrapped up in something that he was out of his depth in?

• 52:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And now he, you know, he got dangerously close and they, they took, they. Took care of him. They took him up. So Ray then wrote, quote, "Fare thee well, Rob Rosenberg," end quote. And following this, he makes a direct reference to Porter Stansberry, saying, quote, "Before I continue with my instructions to the council and claim the prize for my service, I'd like to allow Porter Stansberry to claim his prize," end quote. And it's kind of hard to make out these next words, but it looks like he wrote, quote, "Now Porter, don't waste these words by claiming something I'll just take back," end quote. Ray continues writing, quote, "Now that the game is finished, I expect the council to recompensate those who have given time and talent to this venture.

• 53:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Along with myself, these players should be made five years younger by the council," end quote. Ray then listed a series of names belonging to his close family and friends. He listed his brother Angel and his father Angel Senior. He made a point to clarify between the two. He listed his sister Elena, his mother Maria, as well as his wife Allison, who he refers to as Miss Allison Jones, instead of calling her by her married name. He also listed the name Brad, who was a former water polo teammate that had moved to Baltimore to work for Porter Stansberry. He lists somebody named Andrew. This was a friend of his who had composed music for his film. He says the name Steve, along with Steve's wife, Allison's parents and younger brother. There's a long list of names.

• 53:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Many of the people on that list worked for Porter Stansberry's company or for the Oxford Club, and along with their names are the names of their wives and children. And finally, there's a gap in the list before Ray writes, quote, "Porter Stansberry, if he didn't do it himself," end quote. So what do you make of that? We gotta make these people five years younger for their contribution to the game? And Porter Stansberry's last, if he didn't do it himself? Which I think gives the perception that Ray believes Porter has some seniority in this organization.

• 54:27Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a very, it's a very confusing letter. And he's asking someone to make these individuals younger. Um, he, it appears that he's figuring out, and it aligns with a lot of what we've talked about, him saying, hey, call me back. You know, I think it was to Porter Stansberry. I figured it out. You know, the question now is, is what he's saying true? Or is it something that he's just making up in his, in his mind? That's really where we're at. I don't want to simplify it, but that's really where we're at. Either he's the smartest guy in the room. Or he's losing his mind.

• 55:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but I mean, you don't usually see somebody have no, and even the police said, we've, we've looked, he's got no issues with mental health, he's never had any issues like this before. So you don't usually see somebody go from being, you know, functioning to completely like babbling nonsense.

• 55:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Babbling nonsense, but I would, I would say, I would counter that and say, this is earlier on, before CTE and things like that started to become something that was taken seriously. And we see athletes like Junior Sayaw, one of the athletes that I looked up to, if somebody doesn't know who that is, he was a linebacker for the San Diego Chargers.

• 55:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  We talked about him during the Aaron Hernandez case.

• 55:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, during San Diego Chargers and then the New England Patriots. This guy was loved by everyone, just a great human being from what we saw on the surface. And he ended up killing himself by shooting himself in the chest because he knew something was wrong with him and he wanted his brain to be studied. So there are things that happen as you get older that are residually there because of something that happened, maybe playing sports or something. And although there's real no, no explanation for it, it could be something where your brain just fails you. It starts to play tricks on you and I'm not saying that's what happened here.

• 56:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  But don't you think that this would have been noticeable, at least in the weeks leading up? Like if Ray's lost touch with reality to this point, wouldn't he be babbling to Allison about this stuff?

• 56:25Derrick Levasseur?

  I would think so.

• 56:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  You'd think, because he wouldn't be able to distinguish. Yeah, but still you'd think he would still be talking to, if he thought Porter Stansberry was a part of it, you'd think he'd be babbling to Porter Stansberry about it. Or any one of these people he put on the list who apparently are in, on the inside and know about this already, right? You'd think he would be talking about this in this very manic way to somebody. He wouldn't just be, he wouldn't have the self-control to, to keep it to himself, especially if he was delusional enough to believe that all of this was real.

• 56:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 56:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then he goes and meets with the Freemason guy, right? And you'd think he'd be babbling about this stuff to him.

• 57:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 57:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he didn't.

• 57:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I, I don't know.

• 57:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  That same day he died.

• 57:05Derrick Levasseur?

  This is gonna be a hard case for me because I, I'm gonna have to believe, and you guys know me by now, we've been doing this four years. In order to believe that Ray was killed, I'm also gonna have to believe in a lot of what he's saying here. That there, this is all true, that there's this big society that we're unaware of that. Took him out because he knew too much.

• 57:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which like, is that the most unbelievable thing?

• 57:27Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I mean, there's a reason why I don't know about it. It's just harder for me without evidence, you know?

• 57:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I mean, like, especially given, you know, I don't want to make this political or anything, but given our government's tendency to hide things from us, given, you know, we know that there's a capability for large groups of people who have power and influence to operate under the cover of darkness and people just don't know what's happening. So it's not the craziest thing to believe in. You might have to suspend your belief a little bit in order to.

• 57:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, this is, I'm just, self-awareness, it's going to be a stretch for me. I would need something substantial to get there, other than just one person writing these really cryptic letters where I'm going to get to that conclusion.

• 58:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that, like, listen, as somebody who spends a lot of time on the CIA website, reading all of their files that they've, you know, finally released to the public, you will see sometimes secret agents, CIA agents, write in this way. Like, it doesn't make sense to us because it's in code. So, you know, it's not crazy. Like, there are people out there who communicate like this, and it's not crazy babbling, even though to the person who doesn't understand the key to the code, you would be like, what the hell is this, are these people talking about? That's the point. They don't want somebody who just picks up this letter to be able to understand what's being referenced in the letter, in the writing.

• 58:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that's possible, you know, that we know that there are weird operations that happen with the government, CIA, Secret Service, things like that, and they do have agents who are essentially ghosts. They don't have real names, they don't have real identities. They're trained to move through the world without being seen, and they will communicate in code like this.

• 59:21Derrick Levasseur?

  But Rivera is not a CIA agent.

• 59:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  If he was, we wouldn't know about it, Derek.

• 59:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I can't, I think there'd be some.

• 59:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's true.

• 59:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I think there would be some.

• 59:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do you think if Ray Rivera, no dude, that's the point.

• 59:34Derrick Levasseur?

  He just came out of nowhere, went from polo player to CIA agent.

• 59:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ray Rivera dies, the government's gonna like investigate or the police are gonna, and they're gonna be like, don't worry guys, he was a CIA agent, don't worry, no.

• 59:44Derrick Levasseur?

  You don't think Allison would have known?

• 59:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, do you know anything about the CIA man?

• 59:49Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I guess not.

• 59:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Apparently not.

• 59:52Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't.

• 59:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  They, nobody knows, they live, they have wives, families, they don't know, they don't know, no one knows.

• 59:58Derrick Levasseur?

  That they're part of the CIA.

• 59:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  No. We really have to talk about the CIA sometime, okay? Alright, so the note continues, getting even more cryptic, with Ray making a sweeping statement about human progress, writing quote, "Brothers and sisters, our land of achievements has seen many ideas become new innovations since my game began." End quote. So below this, Ray listed numerous technological and scientific advancements, though some of the entries appear fragmented, we don't have the full list, but his list includes, "Radio frequency identification, digital music players, portable and otherwise, hybrid engines, computer operating systems, flash drives, thermal depolarization, horizontal drilling, the human genome project, heads-up display technology,

• 1:00:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  cloning, fuel cells, wifi, HDTV, MP3, JPEG, Bluetooth, various pharmaceutical drugs like Viagra, Plavix, Lipitor, Xanax, Zoloft, Prevacid, the Unitarian Church, Sudoku, overnight express shipping, Invisalign, the Da Vinci surgical robot, Muscle Milk, and outsourcing." So what made me kind of, and once again, I believe that if this is not Ray having a mental break, it is written in code, because how are you gonna put something like Muscle Milk, next to something like, the Da Vinci surgical robot, you know, he's like, we have made great strides, Sudoku? The Unitarian Church? Flash drives? The whole human genome project, like these things are not related.

• 1:01:25Derrick Levasseur?

  So I, and I think you summarized my thought on it, if he's, if he's not having a mental breakdown. He's talking in a language that only is known to the secret society.

• 1:01:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or whoever he's working for, maybe not the secret society, maybe the CIA, maybe just a group of people that.

• 1:01:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we have, we have, you have to believe that. I'm not saying it to be, I'm not being sarcastic here. You have to, there's no logical explanation for what he's writing. So you have to believe that it's, it's deeper than that. It's deeper than anything anybody listening or watching this show can comprehend.

• 1:02:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, but we're gonna try to comprehend.

• 1:02:02Derrick Levasseur?

  I am sure we will. You're gonna bring me down with you. We're gonna go there.

• 1:02:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're going down the rabbit hole. We're going down the garden path.

• 1:02:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Here we go.

• 1:02:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  So then Ray makes a bold financial claim stating that 1% of the rights, patents and proceeds from these innovations that he listed should have already been transferred to him. He wrote, quote, "The 1% of the rights, patents and of the proceeds for all of them should have been transferred to me by now. I know that our host Porter Stansberry has created a way for you to do so. To arrange for future transactions, you should visit me at any of the properties that I will resume control of. My primary residence, which includes a beautiful piece of property in northern Argentina, and I'm told the biggest mansion in Buenos Aires. Well done, Porter. In Europe, you can visit me at The Flame in Nice or in Madrid.

• 1:02:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Although if I'm in Spain, I'll probably be at the Costa. In Asia, you'll be able to find me in Thailand. Another job, well done, Porter. I will keep the two houses in Los Felix, California, and the one house in San Francisco, although I'll be looking for a new place in Baltimore and perhaps some other cities." End quote. So this is like, once again, this makes me feel even more like this is a code. This is not Ray saying he owns all these properties because we know he doesn't, but maybe telling people where to go. So he's very.

• 1:03:26Derrick Levasseur?

  But could he believe he does?

• 1:03:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't, I don't know. I mean, once again, this would be a huge leap from not babbling nonsense to anyone and keeping everything like under, under wraps. And then all of a sudden overnight, you think you own the, the biggest, you know, the biggest property in, in Buenos Aires, right? So. And then he says, "Well done, Porter," as in like this is a message for him kind of thing. That's why it's weird.

• 1:03:52Derrick Levasseur?

  And I addressed that last week where I had a personal situation like that happen where there was someone out there who believed I was trying to kill him. They lived in my neighborhood. Obviously not true, but in their head.

• 1:04:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is it not true, Derek?

• 1:04:04Derrick Levasseur?

  It was not true. And, and, and yes, maybe I'm part of the CIA too. I think we're on the same page, even though we're saying different things. You either have to believe that he's having a mental breakdown that came on as of late, or that he knows something we don't know. And he's speaking in a code that's above our pay grade. That's really where you're at right now. It's, it's pretty binary. There's no way to read those things because it can be disputed, right? Like you said, he doesn't own these properties. We know that. So it's not going to be a logical investigation where you go, okay, he's saying he owns these properties. Clearly he doesn't. So if, if he, he's, it's one of two things. Either he's making this up in his own brain, or he knows something we don't.

• 1:04:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So we have a little bit more of this letter to, to go over.

• 1:04:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  But before we do, let's take our last break and we'll be right back.

• 1:04:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So Ray's not done with the letter. He still has more to say. He said, quote, "I'd like to briefly mention some movies, books and music I found very inspired and compelling. I'd love to meet any of you who helped contribute to these works. The Matrix, One, Two and Three, The Family Man, National Treasure, The Da Vinci Code, Eyes Wide Shut, Confessions on a Dance Floor, Demon Days, Ten Summoner's Tales, November Rain, Home By Now, Meet Joe Black, Minority Report, Star Wars, One Through Three, Lord of the Rings, One Through Three, Fight Club, Seven, The Game, Paycheck, Identity, The Born Identity, The Born Supremacy, Being John Malkovich, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless

• 1:05:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mind, Team America World Police, and specifically, let me say that I expect M. Night Shyamalan to continue coming up with great ideas and making great movies. I certainly enjoyed his movies Wide Awake, Sixth Sense, The Village, The Others, Signs, Unbreakable. I'd like to also signal out Keith Richards. You had a great run, buddy, but what's mine is mine. The game is up. The deed's been done. It's time for some shut eye." Now, end quote, by the way, end quote.

• 1:06:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Can we break that down?

• 1:06:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so first off, some great movies mentioned in there.

• 1:06:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:06:14Derrick Levasseur?

  And I don't want to-

• 1:06:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Have a similar theme, right? Well, some-

• 1:06:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, there you go. That's what I'm getting at. Not all of them. I haven't seen all the movies, but there is a similar theme in there, right? The Da Vinci Code. Uh, that's one that stands out to me. National Treasure.

• 1:06:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  The Bourne Identity.

• 1:06:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Bourne Identity, Bourne Supremacy. Yeah, there's, there's a-

• 1:06:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not the, not the third Bourne movie, though.

• 1:06:37Derrick Levasseur?

  No, that one was a little different, but it seemed like this whole, kind of what you're saying, and we were not joking about it, but like CIA type thing where there's, basically, there's a whole different game being played underneath the surface that most of the general population is unaware of. And Bourne, The Bourne Supremacy, that movie's a great example of that, where everyone's kind of going on with their day around them, and Jason Bourne is going after this group of individuals who's basically controlling the world.

• 1:07:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:07:08Derrick Levasseur?

  And most of the people you see in the movie that Bourne interacts with have no clue because they're just living their lives, like me and you, recording our podcasts, not knowing that we're one inch away from being blown up.

• 1:07:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not knowing how the CIA works.

• 1:07:20Derrick Levasseur?

  That's it. Clearly.

• 1:07:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I mean-

• 1:07:23Derrick Levasseur?

  The funny thing is, you're referring to me and I'm referring to you.

• 1:07:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's funny. That's funny. So, The Matrix, one, two, and three. What's that about, right? This guy's just living his normal life, not knowing anything that's happening, and all of a sudden, he's pulled into this like crazy thing where he realizes the life he's living is not an actual life. He's actually being, sitting in a pod, being sucked on by aliens.

• 1:07:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it's like, okay, wake up now, right? Take the red pill. Get out of the Matrix.

• 1:07:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes. And so, it brings us right back to it, where there are people who believe the Matrix and all that is a real thing, and that's really what's going on, and we are potentially living in the Matrix.

• 1:07:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  I believe that, by the way.

• 1:07:59Derrick Levasseur?

  I, this is the least surprising thing you've said during this episode.

• 1:08:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's no other, there's, there's no other explanation sometimes.

• 1:08:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. Okay. Just know that we are a, a team, but we both are independent of each other in some ways.

• 1:08:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're gonna act like, there, by the way, just as a quick offshoot, there's been studies done showing that there's a high likelihood wherein an ancestor simulation, which means that our- You know, people who came after us have reached such a level of intelligence and such a high level of technology that they are now able to make simulations where the people in them, us.

• 1:08:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Have no idea we're living in a simulation and they're running these simulations to basically see like what went wrong with humankind, how can we fix it? And so they're keep running these simulations to see the right thing to do. Even, um, what's his name? That, that really smart scientific dude? I can't remember his name. Do you know what I'm talking about?

• 1:08:52Derrick Levasseur?

  So smart, can't remember him.

• 1:08:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, come on. Um, but yeah, there's, there, the scientists have said this, that there is a possibility of that. So for you to sit here and-

• 1:09:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Are you talking about Stephen Hawking?

• 1:09:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stephen Hawking has said it, but I'm talking about Neil, Neil deGrasse Tyson.

• 1:09:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  So he said it too. So it's like for you to sit here and try to minimize me for being open minded and looking around at the world, especially in 2025 and being like, oh yeah, all of this makes sense. Everything that's happening makes sense. No, it does not. No, it does not. We're definitely living in a simulation of some kind. Now who's running it?

• 1:09:27Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't believe that.

• 1:09:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know. Okay.

• 1:09:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't believe that.

• 1:09:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  You don't even believe it's possible?

• 1:09:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh, anything's possible, right? It's also possible that I'm Iron Man, but it's not true. You know, it's just not true. It's possible I could be, right? Maybe I'm working on a whole robotic suit in my basement that you're unaware of.

• 1:09:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  I wouldn't be surprised by that, Derek.

• 1:09:44Derrick Levasseur?

  That, that doesn't help you.

• 1:09:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  That actually seems like something you might be into.

• 1:09:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. Yes.

• 1:09:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  No? Or yes?

• 1:09:50Derrick Levasseur?

  It's not possible. I don't have the mental capacity to pull that off.

• 1:09:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  I thought you said anything was possible.

• 1:09:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't want to lose the, the plot here, but to me, these, these movies may be indicative of something bigger. Um, yes, again, it could be code. It could be that basically the people behind this society are creating these movies, basically throwing it in our face.

• 1:10:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or he's trying to communicate to somebody like, oh, the answer-

• 1:10:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Is in this movie.

• 1:10:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or maybe the movies themselves, it's some sort of code that you have to like scramble up. Yeah.

• 1:10:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. But on the surface, it also could be someone who's struggling mentally, going through something and these movies are only reaffirming their, their paranoid beliefs.

• 1:10:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:10:30Derrick Levasseur?

  That they're looking at it going, see, see, here's the sign right here.

• 1:10:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Confirming the delusion.

• 1:10:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly. They're, they're, and they love these movies because it gives credence to what they believe.

• 1:10:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's possible. For sure. And we do know, we talked about in episode one, Ray loved movies. He loved watching them.

• 1:10:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, these are great movies.

• 1:10:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he loved analyzing them. He loved talking about his, you know, analysis of these movies with anybody who would listen. Big film buff, obviously, in the film world.

• 1:10:58Derrick Levasseur?

  He's definitely a Brad Pitt fan. I mean, Meet Joe Black, Fight Club, I mean, Seven.

• 1:11:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, these are all very highly, you know, conspiratorial, sort of like hidden messages kind of movies, all of them.

• 1:11:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Missing Benjamin Button in there, but you know, other than that, he's got mostly good.

• 1:11:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Benjamin Button. Alright, so there's another sentence that can't really be made out completely, where Ray says he's jealous of someone because of their height, which doesn't make any sense because he was over six foot tall. And then he says, quote, "I expect that my success has helped those that have helped me, and I expect that the focus of what could again include arachnia. So let me leave you with a phrase that helps give meaning to the game. Human progress is our cause, liberty of thought of our supreme wish, freedom of consciousness. Our mission and the guarantee of equal rights for all peoples everywhere is our ultimate goal. Take care and enjoy the festivities," end quote. And with this note, he included

• 1:11:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  a blank check, and that blank check was from the account of his video production company that he had just started, which there was, there was no money in there. So I'm not sure why he did that.

• 1:12:06Derrick Levasseur?

  He was manifesting it at some point.

• 1:12:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I do not believe in manifestation.

• 1:12:11Derrick Levasseur?

  You believe in, that we're living in a simulation, but you don't believe that you can manifest future success?

• 1:12:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I believe our thoughts have energy and can control and direct things, but the manifestation as it's currently presented in like pop culture, I don't, I don't believe that. Like, I don't believe just looking in the mirror and being like, "You are amazing. You are successful." I don't think it works that way.

• 1:12:32Derrick Levasseur?

  But you believe that robots are controlling us and using us as pawns in this simulation, basically just a human version of Sims.

• 1:12:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Aliens. Aliens.

• 1:12:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, aliens. Got it. Aliens. But you can't, the power of positive thinking doesn't work.

• 1:12:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  It, it does, but I don't think it works in the way that it, that it's being presented. But anyways, obviously, this note is just weird. There's no other way to put it. And I don't think that it's disrespectful to say it. It was typed in miniscule print. It probably wasn't typed like that, but he probably typed it normally and then shrunk it, shrunk it, shrunk it. Yeah. It was folded up and taped to his home computer. There's a blank check included with it. Now, the Baltimore Police Department Commander Fred Bealfield said, quote, "It just seemed bizarre, really bizarre," end quote. Police Department, obviously, could not make heads or tails of it. They sent it to the FBI for analysis. The FBI concluded that it was not a suicide note. Agreed. They said some other things about it, which we're going to talk about next time.

• 1:13:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  But the police, a former police commander, his name is Mel Blizzard, he agreed. He said, quote, "What it does appear to be is a weird stream of conscious writing. The other thing I thought of is if he's writing some type of code to someone about something, that's possible," end quote. Now, as far as his references to the Masons and his growing interest in the organization in the weeks leading up to his death, Commander Beal said, quote, "Based on what we've seen, his interest in the Masonic Order was not to do charitable work. Somehow, it was linked to his interest in the movie industry and this theory that somehow there was control being exerted by the Masonic Order," end quote. Now, many names are mentioned in Rey Rivera's strange and unsettling note, but one name does stand

• 1:14:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  out, Porter Stansberry. He is the only person mentioned multiple times, which naturally redirects our attention to him. Following the discovery of Ray's body, Porter's behavior shifted dramatically. Initially, a close friend and former employer, he seemingly cut off all communication with Ray's family. According to reports, after Ray was found, Porter distanced himself entirely, offering no further support to Allison or the Riveras. In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, it was revealed that within hours of the discovery at the Belvedere, Porter sent all of his employees home and brought in a team of lawyers who immediately issued a gag order on the entire company. From that point forward, no one from Stansberry and Associates spoke to the police or the media. Now, Porter has

• 1:14:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  since publicly denied these allegations, claiming that he was disgusted by how Unsolved Mysteries portrayed him and rejecting the idea that he had been uncooperative. Now, here's the thing. I think that he doesn't like the way he was portrayed, but he's not necessarily saying, like, "I didn't get a lawyer. I didn't put a gag order," because he could have sued the show if that was the case. If they just lied and said, "Oh, he put a gag order on everybody. He sent everybody home. He was not cooperative. He wouldn't talk to the police." He could have sued this program, and for somebody who loves money... Why wouldn't he have?

• 1:15:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I don't know. Maybe after speaking with legal counsel, they said, listen, they're entitled to, I mean, if they could prove that they were lying, maybe there's a lawsuit there. I've had things with defamation in the past too, where you want to go after someone, but it's such a, such a threshold you have to, you have to meet in order to have a case. Cause a lot of it can just come down to,

• 1:15:53Derrick Levasseur?

  create a freedom with the production company and how they interpret things. And as long as they believe they're telling the truth, then it's okay. It's journalism.

• 1:16:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  I completely agree. It is journalism.

• 1:16:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And I say that term loosely.

• 1:16:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  If you're making strong allegations like this, very specific, like the gag order, you know, you put gag orders on all your employees. If he could easily refute that and prove it wasn't true, which you should be able to, if it's not true, this is a pretty slam dunk lawsuit, you know? And I don't even know if the lawyers from Unsolved Mysteries would have allowed them to make such a very strong claim, had there not been some truth to it.

• 1:16:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I believe there's probably some truth to it, honestly. I think he.

• 1:16:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, we've worked with networks before and we know that the legal process of even being able to say anything is extensive and annoying.

• 1:16:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. There's, there's probably some truth to it. And then it comes down to, why did he do those things? Was it because he felt like he was getting an unfair, you know, shake on the whole thing? And he was like, listen, they already believe what they believe. So I'm just going to do what I can to stop them. I don't know. I don't know what his reasoning was behind it, but clearly there's probably some truth to the fact that he did push back and try to shut, shut it down.

• 1:17:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, Porter also made allegations after Ray was found, saying that Ray was having personal problems and that Allison had confided in Porter, telling him that she was worried about her husband's mental state at the time he went missing. Apparently or reportedly, according to Porter, Allison had told Porter that the Saturday before he disappeared, Ray had been morose and wouldn't get out of bed. And Allison is like, ah, yeah, I don't recall ever having that conversation with Porter Stansberry. And also, wasn't it Porter Stansbury who, when Ray was missing, was like, oh, he never would have done this to himself. He was the happiest guy ever. Never seen him depressed. He was making a plan to go on a trip to New Mexico in two weeks. He never would have done this to himself.

• 1:17:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  But all of a sudden, in the aftermath, once it's revealed that that phone call came from your offices, all of a sudden, you're like, yeah, he was having problems. He couldn't even get out of bed, you know? It was bad. So it's like, the whole change in the script from when Ray was missing to after his body was found, and some of the light starts to shine on Porter, is interesting to me. Because before, you couldn't even comprehend that he would have done this to himself, because he was such a happy-go-lucky guy, and there was nothing wrong, and he was making plans. But now, you're like, oh, actually, he wasn't that, he wasn't doing that great mentally. You know, it sounds like you're trying to suit your narrative.

• 1:18:24Derrick Levasseur?

  It does. I agree with that. Now, I don't know what Porter was thinking. I think maybe at this point, he's starting to realize that the light is being shined on him, and maybe he feels this natural instinct to defend himself and to maybe point out some things that he had initially decided not to share. When Ray passed, as far as some of the things that he was observing about Ray that weren't necessarily the most positive, but once the attention started to turn on him, he decided to disclose that. Or, as you're pointing out, there could be an angle here where if he is involved, he's now trying to change the narrative to deflect from him. But I think both options are completely plausible.

• 1:19:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I do want to say something, because you had asked me earlier, and you'd said, you know, as a writer, would you not have left something behind for your loved ones? Yes, I would have. The best thing I could, you know? It wouldn't, like I said, it would never take away that pain completely, but some sort of explanation. And Allison said the same thing. She said, quote, "Because Ray was a writer, he would have left a beautiful note. He's a really, really good writer. We believe he would have." And so, it's not as if that weird note was found, and then additionally, this note with explanations for Allison, explaining what happened. It doesn't appear that when Ray left the house that day, he planned to not come back.

• 1:19:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct. Yeah. And that's kind of where I am as we wrap this episode up. Three options for me. When we come into the series, you have suicide, you have homicide and you have an accident. And for me, at this point, I'm ruling out suicide. And this is with very limited, limited information, not being there on the ground, not having access to the files. But I think suicide's off the table for a variety of reasons, which not going to regurgitate what you just said, or a lot of the other things we've discussed. I don't think this was the, the practices or, or words of someone who was planning on killing themselves. They had a lot going on. They had a lot of irons in the fire, as we said earlier. They had some things coming up that would have maybe put them in a better light as far as, you know,

• 1:20:24Derrick Levasseur?

  vacations and future plans and all these things. And as you just said, he would have left something behind specifically for Allison to, to explain why he was making this decision. And then when you factor in the actual way that he died, it just doesn't make a lot of sense at all. There's so many easier ways to do it, um, to ensure that you accomplish whatever you're, you know, you, you trying to kill yourself and to do it in a way where it leaves no doubt what you were doing. Um, so at this point, I, I'm leaning towards homicide or accident. And when we talk about homicide, it could be for a lot of the reasons that you're laying out here. There's something much deeper going on that we're unaware of. Ray got too close. He started turning over rocks that he should have left alone.

• 1:21:05Derrick Levasseur?

  And he became a liability, so they took him out. Or everything that I just said is true, but only in Ray's brain. Everything that he's doing on quote unquote uncovering, putting together, piecing together, figuring out what's really going on, communicating through these letters. He's talking to someone who doesn't exist. And he may have done something that day where his actions led him to believe that someone was chasing him, someone was following him. And in the process of trying to get away from those people who didn't exist. He killed himself in a tragic accident. That's also still on the table.

• 1:21:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I agree. And I think that, you know, the, in the final episode, when we kind of go over and get, get a little deeper into not only what the note might mean, but what potentially could have happened to Ray based on the evidence. It's all we have. It's all we have. But I think it's going to add more context. And especially given the law enforcement environment in Baltimore at that time, I think that's also going to sort of, to sort of add something into that. Because even the police said, you know, after their investigation, we have no signs that this guy was suffering from a mental break of any, any kind. We have no signs that he had any mental health issues. There was nothing. So this kind of thing, yeah, was he acting more anxious and stuff

• 1:22:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  in, in the weeks leading up? Sure. But if you look through his journals, Ray was a writer, so he kept journals that he wrote in almost daily. There's nothing like this. And you'd think that that would be a place he'd feel safe to sort of like ramble and, and talk about all this stuff that was happening in his life. But there's no sign of that. So it's just very hard to believe that almost overnight, he went from somebody who maybe was under some stress and there was changes happening to somebody who was just a complete, you know, rambling, absolute nonsense and having paranoid delusions and that there was no sign of this before that.

• 1:23:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Then he may have done a good job of hiding it.

• 1:23:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  But at that level, could you have that?

• 1:23:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, Aaron Hernandez is a great example of it.

• 1:23:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  But there was many moments where Aaron snapped that we heard about after, that he would snap like in the locker room, just start freaking out and get aggressive on people. Nothing like that with Ray.

• 1:23:18Derrick Levasseur?

  That we know of, that we know of. And, and so, and he might have, his condition might have been different, right? I mean, I would love, this has happened in 2006, right?

• 1:23:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:29Derrick Levasseur?

  In 2006, CTE in the brain and how traumatic injuries as a child and as a young adult can impact you later, we didn't, we weren't really looking into that yet. It wasn't until after really Aaron Hernandez that we started to take it more seriously. And I would love to be in a position where we could have-

• 1:23:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but we have no evidence at all. That he suffered from any like brain injury or head trauma.

• 1:23:51Derrick Levasseur?

  He was a, he was a, he was an athlete, almost a professional athlete. He definitely probably experienced some bumps and bruises.

• 1:23:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  He was a sw- he was a swimmer.

• 1:23:58Derrick Levasseur?

  He was a water polo player. You know how like they, they, they go at each other under there.

• 1:24:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but that's, that's the same kind of thing that you're kind of like just assuming based on what he did, that there could have been something like that, but there's no sign of anything like that.

• 1:24:11Derrick Levasseur?

  There's also no sign of a secret society, but we're, we're entertaining that, right?

• 1:24:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, there wouldn't be.

• 1:24:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. My point being, we're at a point where he was playing water polo, which I'm sure you're familiar with water polo. They're under there, they're big dudes. They're going at each other. They're definitely clashing heads. There's no doubt about it. And could he have sustained some injuries that went unnoticed? He might've had multiple concussions that were never documented, that he never was aware of, because it felt like a headache or whatever. And later in life, they could've came back and had this impact on him. And I would have loved to be able to analyze and, and, and dissect his brain to see if there were any indications of trauma to his brain. We, we can't do that now, but.

• 1:24:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, there was trauma to his brain because of his injuries. So.

• 1:24:56Derrick Levasseur?

  His injuries, his injuries here, but they would be, again, I don't know all the details, but they would be able to go and slice his brain open and see if there were previous injuries that went untreated that caused this type of behavior later in life. I just think it's something that you have to entertain, although there might not have been any overt signs of it. This might've been the very beginning of it. Maybe it was going to get worse. But unfortunately, because of what he was going through at the time, he felt like there was a sense of urgency to act on it. And I can't explain the unexplainable. The reason we're talking about this case is because nobody has the answer. Nobody knows how this man who seemingly had things together ends up going through the roof of a hotel. Nobody knows. That's why we're covering it. If it was that simple, we wouldn't be here.

• 1:25:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I agree. I agree. So we'll be back next week for the conclusion of this series. And we'll all kind of figure out how we feel about it at the end of that.

• 1:25:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Way in down in the comments below. Let us know what you think. There's so many different things. To talk about here and clearly this is going to be one of those cases where the jury's out on it and it's going to be very divided. Stephanie has an opinion on it and obviously we're going back and forth and we're kind of joking about it a little bit with the society, but listen, I know there's some, some truth to this. I know that there's things that I don't understand that are way beyond me that are occurring right under my nose and I'm unaware of it. I'm not ignorant to that. The question is, is that's what's going on here? Is that's what's going on in this case? Or is Ray making it something it's not? That's what we're talking about. So let us know in the comments. What do you think about this case so far? If you're someone who had some familiarity with this case and you've

• 1:26:31Derrick Levasseur?

  already researched it, what do you think? Are there things that I'm missing? Are there things that we're not covering? What do we need to know that's going to get us closer to a conclusion or closer to an answer about this one? Do you guys believe that CTE could have been a factor here? That something could have been going on internally with Ray that he wasn't diagnosed with and he was unaware of and maybe if he had been treated for, we wouldn't be here right now. What are your thoughts? Let us know what you think. As Stephanie said, we will be back next week with part four. We'll wrap this whole thing up. Until then, stay safe out there. We'll see you next week.

• 1:27:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.