S3 Ep145: Tamla Horsford | A Sleepover Turned Deadly (Part 1)

On the night of November 3rd, 2018, a group of women gathered at a quiet home in Forsyth County, Georgia for what was supposed to be a casual birthday sleepover. There was football on TV, drinks flowing, and nothing about the evening seemed out of the ordinary. But by the next morning, one of those women- 40-year-old Tamla Horsford- was dead. Try our coffee! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. ToupsAndCo.com/Crime - Use code CRIME for 25% off your first order!2. https://www. Ladder.fit/CrimeWeekly - Get your 7-Day Free Trial and $10 off your first month today!3. https://www. HelixSleep.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 20% off SITEWIDE today!4. https://www. ThePetsTable.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY55 for 55% off your first box and 10% off your next two!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  On the night of November 3rd, 2018, a group of women gathered at a quiet home in Forsyth County, Georgia for what was supposed to be a casual birthday sleepover. There was football on TV, drinks flowing, and nothing about the evening seemed out of the ordinary. But by the next morning, one of these women, 40-year-old Tamla Horsford, was dead. At first, the explanation seemed simple. Authorities said Tamla had fallen from the backyard deck in the early hours of the morning, a tragic accident, open and shut. Case closed before it ever really began. But almost immediately, questions started to surface.

• 0:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because when you look closer at that night, the details don't settle. The timeline becomes unclear. The statements don't quite match. People who were all in the same house at the same party start telling different versions of what happened. Small inconsistencies turn into bigger ones. What should have been a straightforward investigation begins to unravel into something far more complicated. A case that, for many, never felt fully explained. And as public pressure mounted, authorities did something they don't often do: they reopened it. Because sometimes, the difference between an accident and something else entirely comes down to the details people don't agree on. And in this case, there are a lot of details people can't seem to agree on.

• 1:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  So tonight, we're going back to the beginning. Back to that house, back to that party, back to the last night Tamla Horsford was seen alive. Because if you think you already know what happened, you might want to think again.

• 2:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hey everyone, welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 2:07Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 2:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, Derek, this is a highly requested case.

• 2:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you were saying that.

• 2:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  I almost covered it on my channel, uh, maybe about a year and a half ago. And then I kind of just did a cursory look and I was like, oh, you know, I don't want to be too like, you know, getting into suppositions and theories and, but then they released a case file with interviews and all this stuff. And then I started looking into it and I was like, oh, there is something here. There is a lot here. We need to talk about it and get your notebook ready because there's a lot of people, there's a lot of things. So we are going to dive into that. It's been highly requested. And like I said, I kind of didn't want to get into that territory because I didn't want to start,

• 2:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  you know, a whole, it kind of reminds me a little bit of the Karen Reed thing. How everybody in that was in that house suddenly started getting pulled out and, you know, there's people who think they had more to do with it than, than they did. And, and I, I'm not even against saying they had more to do with it than they did, but there's actually more here to support that there's something maybe going on that we don't know about. So we're going to get into all of that. I'm excited. But before we, we dive in, I know we have to make a very important and fun announcement.

• 3:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, two quick announcements. First off, to, to what you were just saying, this case, for anybody who watched Breaking Homicide will know what a, what case I'm talking about. Just from the teaser, without knowing any of the story itself, it has some similarities to a case I covered, Cody Joyce, which happened inside a, a house. There was a party and I won't spoil it for anybody, but people in the hall, I feel about that case. I think Cody was killed and I spent a year trying to prove it and, uh, some major ups and downs with that case, including me going to, to Munn Hall and. Holding a press conference and all that, but anyways, it reminds me a little bit of that case. So I'm interested to hear more about it. The two quick announcements. First off,

• 4:06Derrick Levasseur?

  we'll start with a smaller one. Criminal Coffee, we haven't talked about Criminal Coffee in a while. Anybody who doesn't know at this point, we have a coffee company together where we donate a portion of the proceeds to solve in cases. We're working on a couple of cases right now that we may be funding soon. We're trying to get the the approval for that. But in the meantime, Stephanie just recently mentioned on her channel, what we've been doing to supplement our growth and our whole, I guess I would say our mission is to start funding or at least sponsoring or paying for different organizations that are also trying to solve cases or help victims of crime. So we've recently donated to places like Higher Hope, Season of Justice, there's also been a few others. They're all mentioned on the Criminal Coffee website. So if you're someone

• 4:51Derrick Levasseur?

  who has purchased coffee in the past, then you have contributed to those causes as well. I strongly recommend you go check them out. But with Criminal Coffee right now, we're having a massive sale on decaf K cups. We know there's been people that have questioned, you know, whether it's something they would like, if they're gonna like the taste, do they do the sense of difference when they have it? If you want to try it, now's the time to do so. We're doing a massive deal on decaf K cups. So if you want to, if you've been ever thinking about trying decaf, now would be the time to check it out. I think they're going for like $10 a box, which is crazy. We're basically losing money on every box, but our loss is your gain. Now for the bigger announcement, which is way more important, the CrimeCon giveaway winner.

• 5:32Derrick Levasseur?

  We've been talking about CrimeCon, how great of an event it is. The passes can be expensive, so we wanted to help two of you out. And we now have our winner of the CrimeCon giveaway. That is Kaitlyn Baker. Congratulations, Kaitlyn.

• 5:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Congratulations, Kaitlyn.

• 5:47Derrick Levasseur?

  You will be at CrimeCon. We look forward to meeting you and and the guest, whoever that is. We may do another giveaway before this is up, but I wouldn't wait for it. I talked to the CrimeCon people. The passes are selling out fast. So if you have any interest in going, now's the time to do so. You can go over to crimecon.com, use our code CRIMEWEEKLY, you'll get 10% off. We would love to see you. There. We're looking forward to meeting everybody. We're gonna have some cool merch. We always have our exclusive Crime Weekly Crime Con merch. I've already seen some samples of the Vegas t-shirt. Ashley knocked it out of the park again. It's absolutely fire. Can't wait to get mine.

• 6:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't wait to see it.

• 6:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, and we look forward to seeing you all there. Hope you guys can make it. That's all I have. Let's get into the episode. I'm ready. You got me all fired up now.

• 6:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm fired up. I was actually excited. Not that I'm not excited to film Crime Weekly with you every week.

• 6:36Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 6:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I didn't mean to make it sound like that, but Mondays, we film on Mondays and they're tough sometimes.

• 6:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Mondays are tough.

• 6:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Transitioning. I always have a hard time transitioning from the week to the weekend and then again, from the weekend to the week.

• 6:49Derrick Levasseur?

  And fairness too, like, let's just call it what it is. We see each other or talk to each other every single day. Like yesterday, it was a Sunday. Stephanie and I were on our, our home computers with our cameras, doing our Patreon videos. So anybody who's a Partner in Crime member, gets a personalized video each month. We were banging out all of those yesterday. So for you guys, you're only seeing us now, but we're, we're doing something every day.

• 7:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but so for this case, when I started looking into it and then researching and writing for Crime Weekly, you know how I get. I get hyper fixated.

• 7:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh yeah.

• 7:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm all excited about it. When we did our live with our Patreons, uh, last week, at the end of last week, I was like, can I tell them what it is? Because it's all I can think about. So I was excited to sit down and talk to you about it and, and deliver this to everyone listening because I can't wait to hear what everyone thinks and I'm just very excited. So let's get started. Tamla Horsford, known as Tam. So everybody called Tamla Tam. And you'll hear this, the people at the party, uh, her husband, her family, her friends. They all called her Tam. She was born on October 10th, 1978 in Kingston, St. Vincent and the Grenadines. So she's a Caribbean girl.

• 7:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  She moved with her family to the Bronx in 1989 and she met her husband Leander or Lee. His name's Leander, but everybody calls him Lee. They met in Florida. Now at the time, they met, Lee already had a young daughter from a previous relationship. But he said that Tam raised his daughter like she was her own and the daughter called Tam mom. So Tam and Lee would go on to have five sons together, which is crazy. Five sons? That's, so she was, Tamla Horsford was 40 when she died in 2018. She had.

• 8:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Five sons with Lee.

• 8:37Derrick Levasseur?

  I couldn't even get one.

• 8:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, I know, but could you imagine?

• 8:41Derrick Levasseur?

  I love you, Tunde and Peyton.

• 8:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Could you imagine just having a kid and it's a boy and then another kid and it's a boy, then another kid and it's a boy, another kid and it's a boy.

• 8:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I honestly thought that was what was gonna happen to me. I had two girls and I'm like, you know what? I'm done cuz I'm gonna be that person and I love my girls. They're my best friends, but I was like, I know, just it's not looking good for me. I'm gonna have five girls, so I'm stopping.

• 9:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  I just can't imagine what a household with five young boys in it would sound like and be like. It would be absolute chaos.

• 9:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Four more and you got a baseball team.

• 9:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they, they were all into, they were all into sports and very active kids. Um, there's Jaden, Peyton, Gavin, Brayden, and Mason. So altogether, this family of two parents and six kids, they moved to Cumming, Georgia. Now, Cumming is a small city. It's about forty miles north of Atlanta and it's known for its new housing developments, good schools, family oriented communities. Forsyth County, though, where Cumming is located, it does have a darker racial history. And I actually knew about this. So as soon as I saw Forsyth County, I was like, wait, because for Halloween this past year, I covered, I did a video called Lakes of the Damned. And one of the lakes of the dammed I talked about was Lake Lanier.

• 9:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you learn, I learned, I was gonna say you learned, but we all learned because I, I delivered the video. We learned about Forsyth County and it's very, um, very bad racial past.

• 10:07Derrick Levasseur?

  We're talking the South, so you know, there's a lot down there that we wish didn't happen, but some of those things are still going on to this day as far as the, I guess, the thought process and the beliefs.

• 10:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so this actually, it started in nineteen twelve. And then this, this, oh, it didn't start in nineteen twelve, but it all went down in nineteen twelve. Following racial tensions and violence, black residents were forcibly driven out of the county and for decades, a long time, Forsyth County, it remained an almost entirely white area until the late twentieth century when diversity slowly began to increase. But I looked into it even today. Forsyth County has only about eleven to thirteen thousand black residents, which is only roughly four to five percent of the population. And yeah, there's so much more to Forsyth County. And if you want to check out that video, I go deep into the history. They basically chased the black residents out with

• 11:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  violence. And then they took over their homes, their businesses, their possessions, and they didn't let anybody come back. And it took a really long time for that to sort of go away. And some people would say it never really did. So when Tam was invited to attend a party at the home of 44 year old Jean Myers, a ladies only sleepover party, it wasn't necessarily odd that she was going to be the only black woman there. Because remember, like I said, Coming and Forsyth County in general, they don't have a huge black population. Now Jean's kids played football with some of Tam's sons.

• 11:40Speaker 02

  I met her in August, September. Our boys, this was the first year our kids played football together.

• 11:48Speaker 03

  Of 2018, so the year, so just a couple of months before. Okay. Had you, how much time had you spent with her? Like, was it just at like football games and stuff? Or had you spent time outside of that with her?

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Um, every Saturday for football games during the season. And then, um, the only other time I'd spent with her was the weekend before she'd come to my house to carve pumpkins with, um, her youngest children.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  Prior to that, though, Saturdays during football. So it's just during the football game? It wasn't like you guys were hanging out, spending time together?

• 12:25Speaker 02

  No, I was just getting to know her.

• 12:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so you heard, that was Jean, by the way, talking, and you heard her mention that really the first time she'd hung out with Tam, one on one, outside of just seeing her at the football games and stuff, was the previous weekend when they had, they had a Halloween party, basically, and they carved pumpkins there. And some of the other women who are going to be at sleepover were also at that pumpkin carving Halloween party. But this party was the first time that Tam had been to Jean's house, located at 4550 Woodlett Court in Coming. And then the following weekend, Jean had another party at her home. This party was supposed to be for Jean's birthday, and the person organizing it was 40 year old Stacy Smith, another football mom who knew both Jean and Tam.

• 13:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  And helping Stacy plan the party was 39-year-old Nicole Larson, who had never met Tam before.

• 13:20Speaker 03

  Did you ask that people stay if they were drinking? Or was that kind of Stacy and Nicole's plan?

• 13:26Speaker 02

  Well, they said, "Let's just make it a all-moms slumber party, so then nobody drinks and drives." And we didn't want to have to really do makeup and dress up.

• 13:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so, remember, this is supposed to be an all-ladies slumber party, and it's for Jean's birthday. And she's telling the police, well, she's telling, at this point, she's talking to the GBI. So you know what the GBI is, right?

• 13:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Georgia Bureau of Investigation.

• 13:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's like the FBI, but just for Georgia, right?

• 13:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, it's more of a local agency, a state agency. It doesn't have the same federal jurisdictions that the FBI has.

• 14:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  But they're considered probably the top law enforcement in Georgia.

• 14:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, in Georgia, correct, correct.

• 14:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she's talking to the GBI, and she's saying, "I didn't plan this party, you know, my friends planned it for me." And basically, Jean says, "I just didn't really want to go out anywhere. We didn't want to do makeup, so we thought we would do this. And also, people were going to be drinking, so we didn't want anybody to drive home, and that's why we made it a sleepover." Now, this is interesting, though, because according to Jean, she didn't have anything to do with planning the party. She said she knew there was going to be a party, but as to the way everything went down, such as who was invited, she didn't have anything to do with that. However, on November 4th, 2018, when Jean talked to the police, and this would be the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office, the initial responding police force,

• 14:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  when she talked to them after Tamla Horsford was found dead in her backyard, she said something different. The police report reads, quote, "She stated that she wanted to have a birthday dinner with friends, but did not want the hassle of going out. She stated that she came up with the idea of inviting some girlfriends over for a pajama party," end quote. So like I said, the interview you just heard from Jean is happening a year and a half after November 4th, 2018. That's with the GBI. The statement she gave on November 4th, 2018 was to the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office. And out of the roughly eight other women invited to this party, Tam only knew a few, and she did not know any of them that well. Jean also said that she wanted to watch football,

• 15:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  and she was actually referring to the LSU versus Alabama game that was playing on the night of November 3rd, 2018. I looked it up, this game started at 8:00 PM. Now, he, yeah.

• 15:47Derrick Levasseur?

  That would be around the time it starts, they're not gonna start them any earlier than that during the week.

• 15:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  I honestly have a question about that, by the way. So have you watched these, because this is college football, right?

• 15:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yes, yes it is.

• 15:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, so you've watched these college football games, right?

• 16:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, once or twice.

• 16:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they start probably around 8:00 PM. When does halftime happen?

• 16:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, it's halfway through the game.

• 16:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is it, how long does a game take, though?

• 16:09Derrick Levasseur?

  The game will start at 8, but it doesn't normally start at 8. Like, usually the television broadcast will start at 8. So the game's gonna start roughly, maybe 10 or 15 minutes after that, depending on timeouts and what happens in the game. I could be wrong, college football, correct me in the comments, I'm probably wrong, I'm thinking maybe basketball, but it's about 30 minutes, 40 minutes after the game starts, maybe 50, depending on timeouts and stuff.

• 16:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's when halftime would be around.

• 16:34Derrick Levasseur?

  That's halftime, yeah. But it's all predicated on like the game flow, like, some half times are faster because there's no real stoppage in time for the game and it gets there quicker, but...

• 16:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so halftime, depending on, you said timeouts and things, you're talking 30 to 40 minutes into the game?

• 16:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, just the flow of the game, sometimes there's not a lot of clock stoppage, but relatively, it's gonna be about 45 minutes per half.

• 16:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  See, that sounds like it goes so fast, but to me, every time I watch a football game, it feels like it takes hours, I don't know.

• 17:01Derrick Levasseur?

  The game is about, when you sit down for a football game, it's about a two-hour experience with halftime. So that does make sense, 45 minutes per half, and then a 20-minute halftime.

• 17:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, well, it feels like it takes hours, it's torture, but I'm not a football fan, so... Next, we're gonna hear from Tam's husband, Lee, and he's going to tell us on his end what happened the night of the party.

• 17:24Speaker 04

  That day was just like any other day, I was...

• 17:30Speaker 04

  In the back, working in the yard, building a bonfire for the kids so we could roast marshmallows at night. She was helping, um, you know, she was in the kitchen cooking because she knew that she was gonna go out. Uh, she had told me that Jean's had a birthday party and she was having a sleepover because they didn't want anybody driving and everybody could, you know, just hang out and stuff like that. At first she didn't wanna go, um, but she didn't want them to think that she didn't like them. And she was always like that. She was always concerned about what other people

• 18:11Speaker 04

  thought, or, I mean, not in that way of like what they thought of her, but to try to, you know, she always tries to please other people. I think that would be the better way to, to, to word it. So, you know, she was like, okay, well, I was actually gonna go out that night as well. And I decided, no, I'll stay home with the kids because she works so hard and it was like she's all she ever does is, you know, deal with the kids. We're constantly doing sports. We're, I mean, cooking, taking care of the house. My job was basically to make the money and to just, you know, I would even, I'd give her my check. All I need is a hundred dollar allowance a week.

• 18:52Speaker 04

  And she got everything else. She paid the bills. She did everything. She was like a superwoman. So I was like, okay, well, yeah, you can go. And, you know, I was kinda, you know, didn't want her to go, so kinda like nasty about it. Well, yeah, go ahead, whatever. So I remember when she was walking out the door, she leaned over the couch, cause I was sitting on the couch. And she leaned over the couch and gave me a kiss and said, I love you. Thank you for letting me go. And I smiled, cause we always, even though we were upset with each other, we could always make each other smile. We'd do like silly stuff to each other, you know?

• 19:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Alright, so there's a little bit to unpack there. I think, uh, first off, I admire the candor. Right? It's easy to rewrite the history because nobody else can dispute what you're saying. So he could have made himself look a lot better, right? By just saying, "Yeah, I was all for it. You know, I was happy she was going out." He's like, "No," he's being real. He's like, "Listen, I was supposed to go out that night too, but instead I got stuck with the kids." I'm, I'm basically translating here. "I got stuck with the kids. I was upset about it. I was pouting about it."

• 19:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 19:55Derrick Levasseur?

  "And she knew I was pouting about it, but at the end of the day, you know, she, she still gave me a kiss and said goodbye." I think a lot more people out there have experienced similar things to that.

• 20:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of course.

• 20:06Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and you know, even him saying like, you know, "She thanked me for letting her go." I don't think it was like he let her go. I think it was more like, "Thanks for being okay with me going." You know, like, "Thanks for letting me, me go out while you stay home with the kids." So I, I, I know some people might have a problem with the way he framed that, but I actually appreciate the honesty because he's telling you, you can tell in that moment, he's telling you exactly what went down. There's no question to me that he's telling the truth.

• 20:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that's actually more common than, than not, right?

• 20:37Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt.

• 20:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Where, especially when you have kids, six kids, you know, and one, one per- you can't go out together anymore. Really, unless you get a babysitter who's willing to stay with six kids and five of them are, you know, rowdy little boys. So yeah, you gotta kind of stagger. One person goes out if you want to go out. And the other person left behind is always salty about it.

• 20:59Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no doubt. I, I have a question for you. I have a question for you because I can speak as a man and the answer is no for me, but my question for you is, I, I, you talked about, you talked about coming. You talked about where they lived. How far in relation to where they were was the party? Was it like an hour away?

• 21:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, no, no. They, they both lived in the same town. Yeah.

• 21:21Derrick Levasseur?

  So for me, and I'm asking, I'm posing this question to you and to the majority of our audience, which is women. Like, is this a common thing? Like, you live in the same, you live in the same county or the same town and you're having sleepovers? Like, I understand not wanting to drive and drink. Like, that's totally cool. But this is 2018. There's definitely Uber. There's definitely the ability for you to get picked up by your husbands. Like, maybe he was frustrated by that as well, where he's like, "Why are we like, you know, grown women having sleepovers?"

• 21:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so I think a lot of people have an issue with that.

• 21:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so I'm not gonna get canceled for saying this.

• 21:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  No.

• 21:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 21:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  And as you'll see, as we kind of go through this, they're, not all of the women did stay. Some of them did leave, some of them did have their husbands come pick them up, et cetera, et cetera.

• 22:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Seems a little odd to me because unless you're planning on partying like hard, there's really no reason why you, you can't get picked up or, or just, you know, drink in moderation and, and, and not get crazy and then drive home yourself.

• 22:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you'll also hear that, you know, from a lot of the people who were there, Tam showed up later than most people.

• 22:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 22:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because she was, she made dinner for her husband and the kids before she left. And then she also made breakfast for them the next morning because she wouldn't be there to prepare breakfast for them. So she made like a breakfast casserole so that they could just pop it in the oven, heat it up, have breakfast.

• 22:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Damn, okay.

• 22:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she was, you know, yeah, yeah, I know.

• 22:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Lee really wasn't doing much. He was like, hey, listen, you can go, but everything needs to be done. I'm just calling it.

• 22:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  But make sure, this is plug and play.

• 22:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he was like, you can go, but I ain't lifting a finger, basically. He's like, I can't make no pancakes. I'm not doing any of that.

• 22:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not making breakfast.

• 22:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, all right. I mean, listen, I personally, little extreme, but hey, kudos to her. That's their relationship. He even said it, right? Like, I gave her the check, she took care of everything. That was, that's what I did.

• 23:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  But a lot of people would also say this is what Tam wanted to do for her family.

• 23:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 23:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is, she, she took care of them. She made sure all their needs were met. A lot of people referred to her as super mom.

• 23:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 23:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was very invested in their sports, as we'll come to find. Okay, so we're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 23:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Can we talk about something for a second? Because I feel like we've all gotten really good at paying attention to what we eat, what we drink, what we put into our bodies. We talk about this stuff all the time, but then we don't always think about what we're putting on our skin.

• 23:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and I think, little fun fact, I'd like, I'd like to think most people at this point know that the largest organ you have is your skin.

• 23:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I think especially for someone like me where I have constant issues with inflammation on my skin. So it really made me start looking closer at my makeup because it's what I put on every day. And a lot of it is full of ingredients that I can't even pronounce. I'm not good at pronunciation to begin with, but. Definitely these I can't pronounce. And it just doesn't feel great putting that on my skin every day. And that's why I checked out Toops and Co.

• 24:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and this isn't just about coverage, right? There's a lot more benefits to this.

• 24:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, they have a lot of stuff. So they have skincare, they got stuff for your body. They've got the makeup. I love the skincare, too. I've been using their Glow Serum and their Vitamin C Serum. And they have tallow. And a lot of other makeup feels heavy. It clogs your pores or you're constantly reapplying it throughout the day. But with Toops and Co., it's the opposite. It's lightweight, it doesn't cake, it actually lasts. And it's formulated with ingredients like aloe vera. So it feels really good on your skin. And honestly, my skin looks and feels better at the end of the day than it did when I put it on because it's just nourishing and moisturizing and doing great stuff for my skin throughout the day. And this is not something that I've experienced with a lot of makeup.

• 24:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so you don't have to choose between looking good and feeling good. This covers both bases.

• 24:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. And they have a lot of different shades. They sent me a bunch of, I think they sent me all their shades so that I could check it out like little testers. And I don't know if, you know, you just put it kind of on your wrist. That's where you're going to check for your skin tone in your shade. I like everything that they have so far that I've tried. And I have way more stuff to try. So if you're ready to simplify your routine and actually feel good about what you're putting on your skin, head to tubesandco.com/crime. They're offering our listeners 25% off their first order with code CRIME, C-R-I-M-E. Once again, that's tubesandco.com/crime and use code CRIME for 25% off your first order.

• 25:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back. So let's go to the initial police report from the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office. And there are two police officers we're going to specifically hear from and talk about throughout this series. Corporal Mike Christian of the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office, who was the responding officer. Christian was also originally assigned to the case, but he was replaced midway through, allegedly, because he had been covering up for another Forsyth County Sheriff's Office detective, Greg Cannon, who was accused of drinking on the job. And in September of 2019, Cannon would be fired for being intoxicated on duty. It was discovered that he had operated a county vehicle while under the influence of alcohol to the point where he was a less safe driver, according to the police report.

• 26:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so it doesn't look like Christian, my Christian was taken off the case until it was discovered after Cannon's arrest, that Christian had kind of known what was going on, but that's kind of neither here nor there, but it does kind of show you a culture maybe starting to build. We're also going to hear from someone named Lieutenant Andy Kalin, who oversaw the case and wrote some supplemental reports in the police file. So the police report says on Sunday, November 4th, 2018, at approximately 9:00 AM, Forsyth County Sheriff's Office Uniform Patrol responded to a medical call at the home of Jean Myers. Now, at that time, Jean lived in this home with her children, but they were with their father that weekend. She also lived there with her aunt, Madeline Lombardi, who wasn't

• 27:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  really her aunt. Madeline was Jean's mother's best friend, but Madeline and Jean both referred to her as being Jean's aunt throughout their police investigation. Living with Jean, her kids and Madeline was 27-year-old Jose Barrara, Jean's boyfriend, who at that time worked as a felony probation officer in Forsyth County. So this is important. First of all, I'm just gonna say, I'm not trying to be judgmental, okay? But Jean's 43 years old, 43 or 44. Jose's 27. All right? Okay. Okay, okay, Jean. And he works for the county. He's a felony probation officer

• 27:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  at the time that this all goes down. So the police report states that 911 had been called after a female had been found unresponsive and cold to the touch in the backyard of the residence. She was seen laying in the backyard by Madeline Lombardi, who then went upstairs to get Jose and Jean, and they called 911. Here is that call.

• 28:12Speaker 05

  Forsyth County, 911. Hi, yes, um, I, I need an ambulance and a ambulance to my home. What's the address? 4450 Woodlett Court. My name is Jean Myers, J-E-A-N-N-E. Okay, what's going on? Um, we had people over last night. We were drinking. Most of us went to bed. One of them stayed on the balcony. She was drinking, and we just went outside, and she's laying face down in the backyard. It looks like, I'm guessing, maybe she fell off the balcony, but she's stiff.

• 28:50Speaker 05

  Okay, is she breathing? I- I don't- I don't know if she's face down. Okay, how- how old is she? I- forty-one. Here, hold on.

• 29:03Speaker 06

  Hey, this is Jose Barrera.

• 29:04Speaker 05

  Hey, have y'all checked to see if she's breathing?

• 29:08Speaker 06

  She's not moving one bit. She's not breathing. Um, I just tried to assess her testicle. She's completely face down in the yard. Um, she is stiff.

• 29:21Speaker 05

  Okay. Do you know if she, um, um, do you see any blood or anything where she-

• 29:28Speaker 05

  Are you there?

• 29:30Speaker 06

  I am. I'm glad I was outside.

• 29:32Speaker 05

  It's okay. I'm not sure what happened to her on there for a second. Do you see any blood or anything to where- from where she fell?

• 29:38Speaker 06

  Um, I- I don't know if I should move her over. I mean, she's completely face down.

• 29:45Speaker 05

  Okay. I mean, can you just check and see if she's breathing? If- if she's not breathing and you- and you know she's gone, then just leave her where she's at. If she- okay.

• 29:55Speaker 06

  One minute.

• 29:58Speaker 06

  I'm completely not sure.

• 29:59Speaker 05

  Okay, and that's the only blood that you would see?

• 30:03Speaker 06

  That's what I can see without moving her over. I have her face. Um-

• 30:09Speaker 05

  Do you know if she, um, do you know if she was suicidal at all?

• 30:14Speaker 06

  I have no clue. I've met her one other time. Um, you know, like my girlfriend said, people were over last night. Um, just, we were at- it was her birthday party. We're- not the woman that we believe to be deceased, but my girlfriend's birthday party. Instead of having everybody go out, she had everyone sit around. And she was the last one I saw before everybody, I mean, everybody was typically put off to bed. She was the last one in the kitchen. She was just either waiting around for a ride or waiting until the morning.

• 30:50Speaker 05

  Okay. How far is the, um, where she would've fell from? How far is the deck from the ground?

• 30:57Speaker 06

  Um, I would probably say-

• 31:01Speaker 06

  Uh, maybe twenty feet.

• 31:05Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 31:05Speaker 06

  You know, twenty feet from where your feet would be on the railing. The railing itself is maybe three and a half, four feet.

• 31:14Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 31:16Speaker 05

  And what is her name?

• 31:18Speaker 06

  Uh, I know her name. We call her Tam. I'm assuming that's short for Tammy or Tamla.

• 31:27Speaker 05

  Was she there with anyone else?

• 31:29Speaker 06

  Uh, her name is Tam Horsford, H-O-R-S-F-O-R-D. It's a lot to hear now.

• 31:37Speaker 06

  Um, I don't believe anybody was. Uh, my girlfriend has cameras here on the back deck that we can check.

• 31:45Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 31:46Speaker 06

  That I think would have caught the incident if she fell from here. Again, I, I, true, I don't know. It's, it's hard to say if she fell from, from the deck or if she was already downstairs. She was the only smoker here and, I'm sorry, I have a lot of information.

• 32:04Speaker 05

  Okay, I'm so sorry about that. So you think she's possibly out smoking?

• 32:09Speaker 06

  Yeah, she was, she was the only smoker. I mean, I'm, I'm on the back deck right now and, you know, figure it's lighter. I've had to finger out here, um.

• 32:20Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 32:20Speaker 06

  I'm just trying to see where, where her, where her wrist might have came from.

• 32:27Speaker 05

  Okay. All right, um, have, are all the people that were there last night, are they still at your house?

• 32:37Speaker 06

  Okay, there are four people that were here last night that are no longer there.

• 32:43Speaker 05

  Okay. And they just left this morning or they leave last night?

• 32:48Speaker 06

  Uh, do you know roughly what time we can run last, like? Uh, we, we, we can check. I mean, she's got an alarm system that gives the lights when the doors are open on her phone.

• 32:59Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 32:59Speaker 06

  But I would, I, I think the last time that I personally saw Tam was probably about one in the morning before I'd gone upstairs to bed.

• 33:09Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 33:10Speaker 06

  And at that point, she was the only one in the kitchen.

• 33:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what did you take away from that 911 call? Because I know the case, you don't.

• 33:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 33:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  What stood out to you right away?

• 33:25Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a lot. There's a lot there that you can, you can talk about. The obvious things without being redundant because everybody else just heard the call as well. They talked about the, how far up the balcony was 20 feet. Talked about how many people were there, how many people left, four people apparently left prior to this call being made to 911. I guess the topical, the big issues that I would address here would be one, when this phone call was made, they weren't even sure that she was dead. They had believed she was deceased, but they didn't even check her pulse because that's why the 911 operator said, hey, are you sure? And he's like, well, let me go back out there. So even before making this call, there was an assumption made. Or they already knew. They didn't believe she was alive.

• 34:06Derrick Levasseur?

  And yet they didn't check her for a pulse or try to render some type of aid prior to calling law enforcement. So that's a problem. The biggest thing to me when we're talking about what may have transpired here is that Jose mentioned he was the last person to see Tam, right? So he's saying, when I went up to bed at approximately 1 a.m. Tam was in the kitchen. Everyone else was kind of off to bed. So that does create a window where you do wonder what, what happened between Jose and Tam. This is a natural question you're going to ask. Because he's admitting that he was with her alone. He was the last person to see her. So that's one thing. But then also another thing that I thought was important is that they have an alarm system and allegedly they have cameras. So

• 34:49Derrick Levasseur?

  knowing that we're going to be able to corroborate or disprove a lot of the assumptions that are being made on the phone regarding her smoking on the balcony and potentially falling over. Anything I missed?

• 35:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so there's also an assumption made that she fell off the balcony, right?

• 35:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's what I'm saying right now, that he's saying she fell off the balcony while smoking.

• 35:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 35:10Derrick Levasseur?

  But then he went on to say that there were cameras. So that's something we're gonna be able to check out pretty quickly.

• 35:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  And as far as Jose, yes, he did kind of make it seem like when I went up to bed, she was the only one in the kitchen and everybody else had kind of gone to bed.

• 35:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Everyone had gone to bed.

• 35:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  He makes it seem like, yeah, he makes it seem like he's going to bed and it's just him and Tam.

• 35:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Are you able to tell me or tell the audience the kitchen, right? Cause we don't have a map of the house. Is the kitchen on the first floor or is it on the same floor as the balcony?

• 35:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  The kitchen's on the same floor as the balcony.

• 35:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so he could have saw her in the kitchen, went to bed and then, but didn't he say that before I went up to bed, I might have just added that in. I might have missed that.

• 35:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, it's not, what he's saying isn't even really accurate at this point.

• 35:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, okay, well, I think those are the main takeaways. I know other people are gonna say he's super like, cool, calm, collected. That could be for a variety of reasons. He's definitely in the, the justice field. So this is, you know, he's a probation, you said a probation, a parole.

• 36:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Felony probation officer, yeah.

• 36:07Derrick Levasseur?

  So I mean, he's dealt with, you know, he's deals with this type of stuff, maybe not exactly like this, but there's a certain demeanor associated with that line of work. So his, his, uh, his temperament doesn't throw me off too much at the beginning. If anything, if we're just going to go down this, this, you know, this alley here, if he's involved with it, he might have did the opposite and made it seem like it was a big shock and surprised him. His, his demeanor to some may come off as suspicious, but I think it makes it at least that part of it a little more authentic. But who knows? I don't want to look too much into one phone call.

• 36:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I thought Jean was pretty calm and cool as well.

• 36:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah. I think overall they, they seem pretty, pretty calm about the situation, considering what they just found.

• 36:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 36:48Derrick Levasseur?

  But, uh, my biggest thing with that is like, nobody knew for sure that she was dead. It was just an assumption and it's like matter of fact to call the police like, yeah, you know, we got a dead body in the backyard, gotta have someone come over here. But those are my, my big takeaways. I love the idea that potentially we have cameras and alarm system, but I have a feeling you're gonna tell me something about these cameras and alarm system because if they were up and running. I don't know why we're covering this story right now. I don't even know if there's a there's a conclusion to this story.

• 37:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm definitely gonna tell you some stuff about that, but

• 37:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, okay, cool.

• 37:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Let's go back to the police report. So the 911 call happened at 8:59 a.m. The first officer on the scene was Corporal Miller at 9:07 a.m. He then spoke to Jean, who told him the night before she'd hosted a birthday party for herself at her residence. She had invited her aunt, Madeline Lombardi, Nicole Lawson, Marcy Harden, Sarah Cochran, Stacy Smith, Michael Palarino, Paula Seals, Thomas Smith, Jennifer Morrell, Jose Barrara, and Bridget Fuller. So, what do you see already? Remember, we've heard a million times, it's supposed to be a girls-only sleepover.

• 37:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, a lot of guys there. Yeah.

• 37:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's some guys here.

• 37:56Derrick Levasseur?

  As you're reading the list, I'm like, wait a second, that doesn't, that doesn't track, so that's odd. Well, and I mean, there's a lot that can be unpacked there as well, like, I mean, listen, I don't like to disrespect the dead, but I mean, was this something that Tam was aware of?

• 38:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was not aware of it.

• 38:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, okay, that's already been, that's, we can cancel that one then.

• 38:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, for context, even though this was supposed to be a girls-only party, Jose was present. He's Jean's boyfriend, he lives there. Okay, that makes sense.

• 38:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Makes sense.

• 38:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Along with Tom Smith, who is the husband of Stacy Smith. And at some point, it's still a little iffy about when this happened, at some point, this guy, Michael Palarino, who was Jennifer Morrell's boyfriend or husband. Now, according to Michael, he was never at the party. He dropped Jennifer off the night of the party and picked her up the next morning. Here is his very brief interview with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office.

• 38:52Speaker 07

  It's Monday, November 19th, it's approximately 5:05 hours. We're here with Michael Palarino? Palarino. Palarino. Alright. I know from reading your statement, the notes, that you were essentially the taxi driver going to pick Jennifer up the next morning and dropped her off the night before. Correct. Were you ever at the party? Do you have any sort of firsthand knowledge about what happened there?

• 39:19Speaker 08

  No, I just that evening just dropped her off, uh, like an Uber driver in the driveway and

• 39:25Speaker 07

  Right.

• 39:26Speaker 08

  And left.

• 39:27Speaker 07

  Do you remember approximately what time that was?

• 39:30Speaker 08

  Probably around seven ish.

• 39:32Speaker 07

  Okay, and you went to pick her up the next morning?

• 39:36Speaker 08

  Correct.

• 39:37Speaker 07

  What time did she reach out to you? Do you know?

• 39:39Speaker 08

  Boy, I wasn't, she texted me eight, eight thirty, something like that.

• 39:45Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 39:46Speaker 08

  Just that she was up and, you know, and then we decided that since that's such a tough, uh, via text, it was just a no sense trying to get an Uber and waiting an hour.

• 39:57Speaker 07

  Right.

• 39:57Speaker 08

  You know, I'll just come and pick you up and

• 39:59Speaker 07

  Right.

• 40:00Speaker 08

  Macy was far, daughter was fine just to stay here for, you know, thirty minutes or so.

• 40:04Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 40:06Speaker 07

  Had you ever met Tam before?

• 40:09Speaker 08

  No, never met her. Uh, aware of her after we found out who it was. She was the woman with the bullhorn, but no, I never spoke to her, no.

• 40:20Speaker 07

  Right.

• 40:21Speaker 08

  Or her husband. I don't know any of them.

• 40:23Speaker 07

  Alright.

• 40:26Speaker 07

  I think that's probably it for us. And so in this case, we'll go ahead and end the interview.

• 40:32Derrick Levasseur?

  That was brief. I also am surprised that it took fifteen days to have that interview because we're talking November third, right?

• 40:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  November nineteenth, they did it, yeah.

• 40:39Derrick Levasseur?

  In November, okay, so sixteen days. That's, that's, hmm, okay. Maybe there was, maybe there was some connections where his attorney might have been present when he gave that interview as well. Maybe they had to set up that, that does happen sometimes, but that's a long time to over two weeks to have the interview of, of this, this, this death. That's, that's interesting.

• 40:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Especially because Jean gave his name as somebody who had been invited to the party.

• 41:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 41:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right? Which why would she do that if he wasn't invited to the party? I don't know.

• 41:10Derrick Levasseur?

  It, it does align with the timeline because he said that he received that text around eight thirty and I believe you said the nine one one call came in around eight fifty nine.

• 41:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 41:18Derrick Levasseur?

  So that would align where everyone's starting to wake up and hey, I'm here, I'm awake and maybe that's when Tam was discovered.

• 41:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So I mean, but technically that would mean that Bridget had. Walked into the main area of the home where there's windows looking on the backyard and she had left and did not see Tam's body at all.

• 41:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 41:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, I want to, once again, go back to what Michael said during that interview. He referred to Tam as "the woman with the bullhorn." And here's Tam's husband, Lee, to explain that context.

• 41:56Speaker 04

  She didn't really know them that well. She just knew them from the football field. And even at the football field, you know, I mean, me and her were always running up and down the field cheering on the kids. So it's not like we're sitting down talking with people. I mean, we, you know, we all communicate. Obviously, our kids are all on the team. But the, you know, we were constantly up and down the field, running down. She would have her bullhorn out there, you know. Favorite thing was "can't stop greatness," you know, she would always, that was her favorite line on the, um, on the bullhorn. Because anytime the refs would make a bad call and then we'd answer back.

• 42:44Speaker 04

  And then we'd answer back. She'd say, "Can't stop greatness."

• 42:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so, uh, I think it's funny and people have pointed out that Michael referred to Tam as "the woman with the bullhorn."

• 42:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 42:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kind of like it's annoying, right?

• 42:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I'll be, listen, again, I'm always honest with you guys. You are as well. That would be annoying to me. And I have two kids that I'd be annoyed, but it doesn't, you know, but that's, that, I, I'm not faulting him for saying that because if anyone's ever experienced that at a game, it can be pretty annoying. It can be pretty annoying.

• 43:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  So everyone seems to agree that the party started at 7:00 PM, but not everyone got there at 7:00 PM. And most people agree that Tam showed up later than the rest of the people. So let's just go by what the police report says for now. Jean Meyer said people started arriving around 7:00 PM. She said that Tamla got there at 8:00 PM. And then when Tamla got there, the girls had already been drinking. And then Tom and Jose had gone downstairs in the basement to watch the football game. So then Tam showed up with a bottle of tequila. She took a shot of Fireball when she got there and then she drank her tequila mixed with Mountain Dew or water. Now Lee says his wife drank her tequila straight. He said, listen, we're both from the islands.

• 43:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Tam could handle her liquor and she wouldn't be mixing tequila with Mountain Dew. She didn't even drink Mountain Dew. Now, according to Jean, Tam was going through that tequila bottle pretty quickly. And when the police collected it the next morning on November 4th, the bottle was approximately one eighth of the way full. Nobody ever really says if it was full when she got there, though.

• 44:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it could have been something. Well, this would be something that maybe you're going-

• 44:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  That the police should ask?

• 44:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, yeah, the police should ask. It's something you could ask Lee. It's also something that you could confirm by previous receipts, right? If she just purchased that bottle that night, you could see where she bought it from, if she actually bought it on that occasion. Although I'm not a big drinker and I got bottles at my house that have been there for months. And so if I go somewhere and I'm drinking my own stuff, I'm a Jameson guy.

• 44:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you bring it.

• 44:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll bring my own bottle and I'll drink a couple, couple swigs out of that and that's it for me. So if we are to assume that this bottle was full, just for one, you know, on one side here, that would be a lot of tequila. But then I would ask the question, how do we know she was the only one drinking from it? We just said that she was downstairs with Jose. They could have been going shot for shot. They could have been mixing drinks. We don't, we don't know. Lee can assume based on previous behavior. It doesn't mean that Tam didn't deviate from that, that night, which is not a bad thing. It's just, hey, there's company here. I'm going to share my liquor that I brought. I think that's a common thing.

• 45:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, maybe, maybe they didn't have tequila there because it sounds like she took a shot of Fireball when she got there. So maybe somebody else was like, oh, and you'll hear there was one woman at this party that was incredibly intoxicated.

• 45:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it wouldn't be crazy for her to bring a bottle and say, does anybody else want some?

• 45:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or just it's on the counter and somebody, somebody pours out of it. Yeah, we don't know. All right, so at one point, Tamla called her husband Lee on FaceTime. And according to Lee, this was around 10:30 PM.

• 45:46Speaker 04

  So she left and then she called me, I don't know, around 10:30 FaceTime. And, um, you know, the girls were there, um, and- The other girls were on the couch and she was, um, she was happy, you know, and she was just smiling. She said, say hi to the girls, babe. And I was like, hi, girls. And, um, and so, you know, we had just a little short conversation, um, wasn't really about much. I just asked her, she's having fun. She said, yeah, it's a good time, everything, everybody's having fun. Um, and I guess they were going to play a game in a little bit and, um, Cards of Humanity or something like that. So me and her ended up getting off the phone and,

• 46:31Speaker 04

  um, and that was the last time I talked to her, but she was happy and she was smiling.

• 46:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. So we're back from Lee talking about the FaceTime call between himself and Tama that happened around 10:30 PM. Let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 46:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. Can I be honest for a second? I used to go into a workout thinking I had a plan, but really I was just kind of guessing. I didn't actually have a plan. Does anybody really know what they're doing when they start working out, especially if they're not used to it or they haven't done it before?

• 47:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I've definitely been there before as well where it's you're doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that and just hoping that it works, but you need a structured plan that's designed specifically with your needs in mind. And that's why I love Ladder. I just recently signed up for it. The cool thing is right when you sign up, you, you put in your goals, your ambitions, what you have planned. And then they actually have trainers where you can watch videos on each one of them where they give you a little introduction as to how they conducted their exercises and you pick the one that's right for you based on, it could be just a vibe where you're like, I know you love the vibes, Stephanie. It could be just a vibe where you see a certain trainer and, and their mindset and how they approach a workout and you pick that person. So I picked, I picked my guy and I'm, I want to focus more on.

• 47:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Not only building my athleticism, but also my strength. And he's designed specific workouts daily that I can do right in my home. Because I also picked a prerequisite of making sure that it didn't involve a lot of workout equipment. I wanted to be able to do it in my house. So this training program is specifically designed with that in mind.

• 48:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and that's all the difference. Ladder isn't just a bunch of workouts. It's a structured, strength training plan designed by a real coach. You can open the app, your workout's just there, no guessing. You just follow it and it builds week to week. So you're not repeating random exercises. There's intention to it. It's planned and structured so that you're actually progressing and building on the things you've already done.

• 48:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and as someone who's definitely paid for a personal trainer before, this is the economical decision. And also, it doesn't involve you going around and trying different trainers until you find one that you like, that awkward stage is gone. Like I said, you can go on, look at these videos, see some of their sample workouts and decide which one works for you. And if you don't like it, you can always switch it up.

• 48:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it really does feel like having a personal trainer in your headphones, on your schedule. It talks you through every set, gives you cues, keeps you on track. And I love that it tracks everything, right? We're all very big on that, like having everything tracked so we can see in real time what's happening, your weights, reps, sets. You can see yourself getting stronger.

• 49:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, one additional thing that I really like is there's a team chat. So other people who are also working on the same program as you. So mine's called the Vitality Team Chat. I can go in there. If there's people who have certain questions, maybe questions that I had as well, go in there, talk with like-minded individuals who are trying to accomplish the same goals.

• 49:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and whether you're training at home, at the gym, if you're focused on strength, glutes, Pilates, whatever, there's a plan for you and it's way more accessible than personal training. It's less than a dollar a day, which is kind of crazy for that level of guidance and like professionalism.

• 49:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, absolutely. We really like Ladder. We think you will as well. So remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, everything is planned for you. So if you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimeweekly and take a quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan today. You can use our link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you decide to join. This is a great deal. No better time than now. Check it out. Head over to ladder.fit/crimeweekly on your iPhone. You will not regret it.

• 50:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so around midnight, everyone, including Jose and Tom, sat around the table in the living room and they played Cards Against Humanity for about an hour. Now, according to Tamla's phone records, she also FaceTimed with her daughter at 12:32 a.m. After the game, everyone started cleaning up and getting ready to go to bed, but according to Jean in the police report, Tam was still social and wanting to chat, and Jean said that Tam wanted people to stay up. So, a few party guests did leave before people went to bed. Around 10:30 p.m., Nicole and Sarah left because of childcare issues. That's what the police report says. Once everything was cleaned up, people began to go to bed for the night

• 50:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  in different bedrooms upstairs that belonged to Jean's kids. Jean said she and Jose were in the process of going to bed and they were saying goodnight to Tam when Tam told them that she was going outside to smoke and she would be back inside in a few minutes. Now, according to Jean and Jose, because you heard it in the 911 call, Tam was the only smoker at the party that night and she had gone outside several times throughout the night to smoke. Jose also spoke to the police and told them that he and Tom were the only men there that night. They'd been watching the football game in the basement until they came upstairs at halftime. They found food and they never went back to the basement. He said he and Jean went to bed around 1:30 a.m. Tamla was still awake, she was going out for a cigarette,

• 51:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  and she told him she would either sleep in one of the kids' rooms or on the sofa in the living room. At 1:47 a.m., Bridget Fuller left, her boyfriend picked her up. She was technically the last person to see Tamla alive, and she said that Tam was eating a bowl of gumbo, she was going to smoke a cigarette, and then go to sleep. Jean did have a security system that sent notifications to her phone detailing which doors in the house were opened or secured, along with timestamps. So, the police noted that the door leading to the back porch had been opened at 1:49 a.m., it was closed at 1:50 a.m., it was reopened at 1:57 a.m., but then it was never closed. Jean said it was slightly open the following morning,

• 52:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  when they found Tamla's body. At 4:10 a.m., Marcy left to go to work. The next person to leave was Paula at 7:45 a.m., and then Tom and Stacy left at 8:30 a.m. Now, we did hear Jose Barrera mention in the 911 call that Jean had security cameras installed that pointed at the backyard. So like you said, that should be able to clear everything up for us. But as it turns out, the batteries in that camera were dead and the cameras did not record anything that night.

• 52:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. I, here's the thing. I have to, I don't want to be a hypocrite on Crime Weekly because I always talk about cameras. And I just recently had an incident at one of my rental properties where we had some vandalism. I have cameras and I hadn't checked the cameras in a while. And unfortunately, there was some construction over there and the construction worker unplugged the DVR. I didn't know it. So I told law enforcement, hey, I have video of this. So we're going to be good to go. And I had like preemptively said that. And then I go back and check and the DVR is unplugged. So it's unfortunate. The thing about the batteries being, the cameras being off here is you'd want to know when they went off.

• 53:38Derrick Levasseur?

  So this is again, even though there's no camera footage, which would help solve this case, you would be able to determine how long the cameras went off. So for example, if these cameras had just been unplugged or the batteries had been removed, an hour before this incident occurred, that's a red flag. The absence of evidence is evidence, right? But if this camera had been down and they didn't know it for weeks, then I could see that this is as an honest explanation. So that will be important. How long the cameras had been down? How long the batteries had been dead?

• 54:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Basically, from what we've heard so far, everyone is drinking and having a good time.

• 54:17Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a lot. You're going over a lot here. I'm trying to keep up. I hope all you guys can. Can you just refresh us on the window in which Tam was last seen alive? Is it around 12:31 a.m.? Is that safe to say?

• 54:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  No. So at 1:47 a.m., Bridget Fuller left.

• 54:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, Bridget Fuller left.

• 54:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Her boyfriend picked her up. She's the last person to see. Tam alive.

• 54:39Derrick Levasseur?

  And that would be after Jose.

• 54:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. And we're gonna hear from her, trust me. She claims that when she last saw Tam alive, Tam was eating a bowl of gumbo and then she was gonna go smoke a cigarette and then go to sleep.

• 54:51Derrick Levasseur?

  So 147.

• 54:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then the, the back porch door opened at 149 and it was closed at 150. Reopened at 157, never closed again.

• 55:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 55:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay.

• 55:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 55:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which if she went out to smoke a cigarette at that time and fell off the balcony, how did the door get reopened?

• 55:09Derrick Levasseur?

  And that, and that door is the door leading to the balcony?

• 55:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 55:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so 149, just because I think this is super important, 149 to what is it?

• 55:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was open at 149, closed at 150.

• 55:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yup, gotcha.

• 55:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Reopened at 157 and then never closed. So like you went outside, had a cigarette and then about five, six minutes later, you open the door to go back inside, but it doesn't get closed again.

• 55:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. Okay, so you 149, you open the door, you go out, it's closed again at 150, but you're saying that was closed behind you.

• 55:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Closed behind her, yes.

• 55:38Derrick Levasseur?

  So 149 to 150, doors opened and then closed behind you, you're on the porch. And then 157, the door opens again for you to go back inside, but she doesn't close it behind her. I get where you're going with here. Okay. Or, or that door was opened while she was still on the porch by someone else and never closed behind them.

• 55:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  That could be, right?

• 55:57Derrick Levasseur?

  So I just want to make sure that, that's why there's a lot of times and a lot of people being thrown around in this case. And it's easy to get confused. So if I'm redundant throughout this investigation as we're talking about it, my apologies, but I want to make sure I got it right because that 157 doesn't necessarily represent Tam going back inside. It could be someone else coming on the porch.

• 56:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  But here's the thing, if you went outside to smoke a cigarette and at that point you fell off the balcony and died, how are you opening the door at 157 to go back inside?

• 56:26Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I agree. That's why I'm saying the, it would make more sense that someone else came outside and didn't shut the door behind them.

• 56:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  It would make more sense if someone came outside, didn't shut the door behind them because they knew there was a security system that was tracking when that door was opened and closed. And if you're trying to say she fell off the balcony when nobody else was out there, then you'd have to explain how the door got reopened and closed behind her, right?

• 56:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you would expect if it was an accident, 149, 150, you get the activity and then there's no other activity.

• 56:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Yes.

• 56:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I would say there would be no other activity after that 1:50 a.m. time.

• 57:01Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 57:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  When the door closed, yeah.

• 57:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it'd be, she'd be out on the porch and there would be no 1:57.

• 57:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So basically, we've heard so far, everyone's drinking, everyone's having a good time. Everyone went to bed, some people left. Tam was the last person awake. Anecdotally, that's what the police report says, that Tam was anecdotally the last person awake. And that's because they don't have proof of that, it's just from what the people there are saying.

• 57:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, Bridget says she saw her at 1:47, right, eating gumbo. And then there is a, she's right near the door to this balcony, so that, on the surface, it would make sense.

• 57:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, when Bridget saw Tam last, she wasn't right near the door to the balcony, but we'll get there.

• 57:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 57:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  So.

• 57:38Derrick Levasseur?

  She was in the kitchen, right? I still don't, we still need to lay out of the house.

• 57:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, she walked Bridget to the door, we're gonna get there, hold on.

• 57:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 57:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, so the next morning, the homeowners call 911, they say Tam's dead in the backyard. Now, before I tell you what the police saw when they arrived, let me describe the house to you. Okay, so 44.

• 57:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Here we go.

• 57:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, here we go, and you have some pictures I sent you.

• 57:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, I'm looking at them.

• 57:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  So 4450 Woodlett Court, it's a pretty nice house. It's a big house, six bedrooms, five bathrooms, there's a finished basement, that's where Aunt Madeline slept. There's a main floor, and then an upstairs. So the main floor is where the living room, the kitchen would be, and then how that balcony goes out the back. There's also an attached garage, a nice backyard, surrounded by a six-foot privacy fence. Now, at the back of the house, there's a large patio with a covered area that's underneath it. So.

• 58:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 58:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's also a set of stairs leading up to the main level balcony that has another door to get into the house. Now, from the top of the balcony railing to the ground floor, it was measured by the police, 14 feet, 10 and 1/2 inches. The top of the railing to the deck was approximately 3 feet 1 inch, and the rail width was approximately 5 inches across. The police report states, quote, "Tamla was found lying face down in the backyard. She was laying almost immediately at the base of an elevated back porch. Tamla's right wrist was dislocated as if she had tried to brace herself from a fall. Additionally, there were two defects on Tamla's shins, which corresponded with a metal landscape, which was part of the yard and was located near her feet.

• 59:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  This landscape divider was a piece of metal approximately 1/8 of an inch thick, which would have made cuts corresponding to what was seen on Tamla's shins. Tamla was lying face down, head downhill from her body. Her right arm was by her side. Her left arm was somewhat out from her body and bent at the elbow," end quote. Okay, so if you're looking at the back of the house, you can see there's like this ground level patio area. That's gonna be at the basement level. I almost think that the house is built on like a hill.

• 59:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 59:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  If that makes sense.

• 59:47Derrick Levasseur?

  No, that does make sense. So there's a cutout. If you scroll to the front of the house there, it looks like it's ground level. But what's probably happening is it's built, like you said, on a hill.

• 59:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 59:57Derrick Levasseur?

  The main level and the second level is above ground. But if you're looking at the house from the side, the basement level, most of it is covered in the front of the house. But as you go to the back of the house, the bottom level, you can actually walk out directly into the backyard. So the house is elevated on that hill.

• 1:00:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So that first level where there's like a ground level patio and you see a few chairs there, that's going to walk into the basement.

• 1:00:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:00:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's stairs. You can go from that lower level patio up to the balcony from the outside. And then the elevated balcony level, which is about 14 feet off the ground, that's going to lead into the main part of the house, which is like the kitchen, the living room, et cetera.

• 1:00:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is pretty common too. And sometimes it's done on purpose where you want to have a walkout. It's obviously a design where you can get more money for it, where you have a walkout basement. So it's more usable space instead of being below ground. So pretty common. But I think that is an important distinction that this balcony that we're looking at here isn't on the second floor where people may be sleeping. This is on the main level where I'm assuming the kitchen would be as well. Like anything like that, that's.

• 1:01:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kitchen, living room, yeah.

• 1:01:03Derrick Levasseur?

  That's all on the same floor. Okay, I'm with you. These photos, 90% of them, we're not going to be able to have in this episode. They're actual crime scene photos from law enforcement where you can see Tamla. So for the sake of. Youtube and all that, they're not gonna let us show any of this. So you guys definitely want to look at these photos, the ones that we can show. It adds so many layers to this because without it, you're gonna be completely lost. There's a lot. Even as an investigator, I'm sitting here like, I got three pages of notes where we're halfway through the episode.

• 1:01:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  So when they say that Tamla's head was downhill from her body, it basically means she fell face forward, as if she had fallen off that balcony. Let's just say that that's how she fell.

• 1:01:42Derrick Levasseur?

  So far, it does make sense with what I'm seeing and what I'm hearing right now that she could have fallen off the balcony. Or at minimum, let's just say, fell from the balcony. How she fell, what caused it, who was responsible for it, that's a big question mark. But the injuries at this point are consistent with her falling from this, from the, I guess we'd call it the main floor balcony.

• 1:02:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I want to point out a few things about what the police report states. She was found lying face down. They said, "Her right wrist was dislocated as if she had tried to brace herself from a fall." So remember that part. Okay.

• 1:02:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, and we can see that in one of the photos.

• 1:02:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  So then the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office CSI specialist, they come and they give their own report. They say, quote, "Tamla was located in the backyard in a prone position. She was laying with her head away from the residence and her feet toward the residence. Her left arm was at an approximately 40-degree angle from her body and the forearm and hand were bent further toward her head in the approximately 10 o'clock position. Her right arm was straight behind her with both feet pointing to the right. Tamla was clad in a one-piece pajama outfit consisting of a white fleece hooded outfit with dog paw prints on it and a set of ears affixed to the hood. The outfit was clean with a small dirty spot on the right buttocks of the outfit." End quote. So the report goes on to say that with the permission of Deputy Coroner Bowen,

• 1:03:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Tamla's body was turned over. Quote, "Most notable when Tamla was turned over was the fact she had come to rest face down. Her head had not been canted to one side or the other. Tamla's right wrist was fractured or dislocated. There was a large bump where her wrist met her hand, as well as a cut over the bump, as if the bone had cut the skin from the inside. There were matching defects on both of Tamla's shins. These corresponded with a piece of metal landscaping edging, which stood up approximately one inch from the surrounding ground. Other than the broken wrist and cuts on her shins, no obvious signs of injury presented themselves." End quote. So, we haven't gotten into the autopsy results yet.

• 1:03:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Give me a moment there, but there's a few things off about this that stood out immediately to me, was the CSI person said that Tamla had fallen straight down. Her head had not been canted to either side, as in, she face planted onto the ground. But the deputy had claimed Tamla's wrist was fractured, as if she had tried to brace herself from a fall. And I don't understand that. Would someone put their arm out to break their fall, but not instinctively move their head to the side? Would they, would they try to break their fall, but not move their head and their face away? Because I looked into it, and that absolutely would not happen. Somebody who knew they were falling and had the instinct to put their hand out to break the fall, would not still face plant into the ground.

• 1:04:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. The whole, the whole thing is, I'm not a biomechanical engineer, and I would enlist the help of, of one if I were working this case, but there's other variables here that I'm trying to keep in mind as we look at these photos, and that's the fact that regardless of what you believe happened, Tam had been drinking. And, and that could also inhibit your decision-making process, especially in a moment's notice. So, to your point, yes, statistically or historically, you would expect the person to exhibit certain behaviors if they're falling. And that's true, but I'm also trying to add in the layer of intoxication, which can slow down your ability to react. So there's a couple of things I have going on here,

• 1:05:13Derrick Levasseur?

  but the one thing you said that I thought was interesting and important is that you're stipulating here that even though Tam was found by law enforcement in this position, she had been turned over. That was not her position when she had came to arrest. Is that what you're stating?

• 1:05:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Her body was turned over once they already made the report. So she was found face down. And then once the coroner got there, they said, hey, can we turn her over? And that's when they did. Yeah.

• 1:05:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. So nobody's questioning that at this point, that her body was moved before law enforcement arrived?

• 1:05:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, but we are going to question the position of her arms. Because you can hear both the CSI and the responding deputy said that one of her arms was kind of out away from her body.

• 1:05:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 1:05:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Jose and Jean are going to tell the police that when they found her, Tamla was laying face down with both her hands at her sides. We're going to talk about that.

• 1:06:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we can see that in the photos right here.

• 1:06:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. So I mean, I know what you're saying, like you're drunk, so your brains, but if your brain's telling you, you're falling, put your arm out to brace your fall, your brain's also probably going to tell you, you don't want to fall face down. And I looked this up. For some reason, humans have like a psychological subconscious thing where they always try to protect their faces at all times, whether something flying at you or you're flying towards something. They always try to protect their faces.

• 1:06:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  But she fell face down, did not canter her head to one side or the other. So Tamla's body was sent to the GBI for an autopsy. And Jean showed the police where Tam's overnight bag and purse had been left behind the sofa in the living room. Inside the bag, they found a smaller bag of marijuana. And it was confirmed that Tam had been smoking weed the night of the party. So at 11:05 that morning, Tamla's body was examined for postmortem changes and it was noted that rigor and lividity were present, her body was cold to the touch, there was a substance that was red in color and similar looking to blood, found on the cuff of her right sleeve, as well as the shin area of her right pant leg. A small abrasion was

• 1:07:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  found on the interior of her left wrist, and small abrasions were found on her left thumb, as well as on the tip of her left index finger. So on November 5th, a detective with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office spoke with Tamla's father, Kurt Saint-Jor, on the phone. Kurt had a lot of questions about Tamla's death, so the detective asked if he wanted to come in and talk. The detective met with Kurt at the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office and wrote in the report, quote, "I answered Kurt's questions in general as best I could, with what little information I had at the time. I explained to him that until the reports from the GBI returned, I would not be able to tell him exactly what had happened to his daughter," end quote. Kurt still had questions, so the detective went through pictures of the crime scene with him. But the detective noticed that this seemed

• 1:08:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  to cause Kurt to have even more questions. Kurt stated that Tam's death and the scene were suspicious to him, and the detective told him that this is why Tam's body had been sent to the GBI for autopsy, so they could determine the why and how of her death. Quote, "I explained to Kurt that based on what we had initially seen, we had a theory about how Tamla came to rest where she had. I explained, it looked like she had tripped on a piece of landscaping edging that had fallen into the place and position she was in. I explained, I could not tell him why she had died, but the tripping theory seemed the most plausible at the time," end quote. So this detective's telling Tam's father on November 5th, that Tam fell from the ground level, tripping over some edging,

• 1:08:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  and that made the most sense.

• 1:08:46Derrick Levasseur?

  This broke her wrist, and I don't see those injuries being from a fall from that distance, so completely disagree with that. And you don't have to be a biomechanical engineer to say that. I've never seen someone fall from tripping and...

• 1:09:00Derrick Levasseur?

  dislocate their wrists like that. I've seen it on a snowboard.

• 1:09:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or just in general died. Like, how would you die from that?

• 1:09:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's why the autopsy is so important, right? When we talk about lividity specifically, knowing if her body was moved after the fact, especially in the facial area. But overall, that's going to tell us our cause and manner of death. And that's really important here because if we find that there was a chemical mixture in her body that could have been lethal in nature, well, then the tripping could have actually just been a reaction to whatever she was experiencing at that moment. But it's still to me, even if that's the case, like even if she had a heart attack in that moment and she just fell, boom, straightforward. I find it hard to believe that she would have been able to brace herself and break her wrist. If she had a heart attack or something of that nature or reaction to what she was taking, consuming, she's not going to put her hands out. She's going to fall flat on her face, probably have a broken nose, maybe a broken jaw.

• 1:09:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Like I was saying, I've only seen this type of injury, collarbones, wrists, elbows, with like snowboarding incidents. So this is, this is a hard one for me to swallow because she wouldn't have enough acceleration at that point to break her wrist in that manner, in my opinion.

• 1:10:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So basically by November 5th, the police have a working theory. And that theory is that Tamla tripped on some landscaping edging, fell face down and died.

• 1:10:16Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a rough one. I'm not buying that. Let's, you know, let's take a quick break and we'll keep going. We have, I can see that what we have coming up. We'll take a break. We'll be right back.

• 1:10:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. I feel like spring is the time when everything gets reset. You know, you're cleaning your house, you're kind of changing up your routine because the weather's getting warmer. And honestly, your sleep should be a part of that too, because I have said this before when it comes to Helix. I didn't realize how much my old mattress was affecting me until I switched to a Helix sleep mattress.

• 1:10:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I can tell you firsthand, I did not have a Helix before we started doing Crime Weekly. And I'm sure you remember, like I'd be texting you at two, three in the morning and you're like, what are you doing? I'm like, yeah, I always wake up in the middle of the night. It's not by choice. It just happens. And then switching to Helix definitely helped that because now I'm getting some sound sleep.

• 1:11:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I used to wake up all the time too, constantly. I'd be too hot. My shoulders would hurt. I'd, I feel like my arm had fallen asleep. I just wasn't getting good sleep. And once I switched, it was one of those things where I just noticed the difference immediately. I'm sleeping deeper. I'm definitely not waking up as much. I'm actually feeling rested in the morning and Helix makes it really easy to find what actually works for you. They have over 20 different mattress models. I think you and I both have the midnight lux, right?

• 1:11:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:11:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you're not going to be just guessing though. You're going to take a quick quiz. It's going to ask you things about like, are you a side sleeper, a back sleeper? Do you sleep hot, cold? Do you like a firmer mattress, a softer mattress, things like that? And then it's going to pair you with your perfect mattress. And there's actual data behind it. Helix did a study where 82% of people saw an increase in their deep sleep cycle and I genuinely believe that.

• 1:11:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And the whole process is super simple. You can get free shipping. It comes right to your door and you get a 120 night sleep trial and a lifetime warranty. So there's really no pressure. If you don't like it, you can send it back.

• 1:11:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I really liked that 120 night sleep trial because-

• 1:12:02Derrick Levasseur?

  If you don't know if it's good in 120 nights, there's a bigger issue.

• 1:12:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  For me, it's just been a complete upgrade. I didn't realize how much better I could be sleeping till I made the switch. So go to helixsleep.com/crimeweekly for 20% off site wide. Once again, that's helixsleep.com/crimeweekly for 20% off site wide. And this is included, so it says site wide. This is including their pillows, not just the mattresses. Get yourself some Helix pillows. They are the best pillows I've ever used. Huge shout out. My daughter Bella loves them. She was consistently stealing mine. So I used our code actually to get four. So we both have now two of each of the Helix pillows. So she doesn't have to steal mine because every pillow on my bed is a Helix pillow. So check it out. 20% off site wide. Great deal. Thank you so much to Helix for sponsoring today's podcast.

• 1:12:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so we're back. On November 6th, the same detective who talked to Tomla's father and was like, yeah, we think she tripped on the edging and fell and died. He spoke with Dr. Andrew Koopminers, the associate medical examiner with the GBI. And the two had a conversation about how Tomla was found. The detective explained his brilliant theory to Dr. Koopminers and he was told that this theory would be impossible. Tomla could not have received her injuries from a ground level fall because aside from the injuries observed at the scene, Tamla had a broken neck, a subdural hematoma on the right side of her skull, and a torn heart muscle. So the detective then explained to the medical examiner that Tam had been lying in front of a balcony, whose deck was approximately 14 feet off the ground, and Dr. Coop Miners

• 1:13:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  agreed that a fall from that height could produce the injuries that Tam had.

• 1:13:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah. 100, I mean, again, doesn't take a rocket scientist, that those injuries, broken neck, she didn't trip over landscaping material on the first floor and receive those injuries. No shot.

• 1:13:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Alright, so let's go deeper into the autopsy. Tam had pretty extreme neck injuries. She had a partial atlantoissipital dislocation. This is sometimes called an internal decapitation type injury, where the skull partially separates from the spine. This is usually seen in high speed car crashes or very significant falls. She also had a fracture of the second cervical vertebrae. So these injuries tell us that her head experienced a violent force relative to the body. She had a subdural hematoma, which is blood leaking into the space between the brain and the tissues covering it, and a subdural hemorrhage. Once again, these are high-impact head injuries, where the brain is experiencing significant trauma and movement

• 1:14:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  inside the skull. There was a 3/4 inch laceration found on the right ventricle of her heart, and this is huge from a forensic perspective, because the heart is actually really protected inside of us. It's very protected inside the chest cavity, and it usually takes extreme blunt force to tear it. Tam had abrasions on the right side of her forehead, her left upper eyelid, the bridge of her nose, her right temple and chin. She also had bleeding at the right temple scalp area. Now, this is interesting, because according to the autopsy, she also had no facial fractures. This is important, because it shows that, I guess, her face did make contact with something, because she's got abrasions on her face,

• 1:15:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  but not with enough direct force to break any bones. So this suggests a glancing or sliding impact on her face, rather than a direct slam. So she had these severe head and neck injuries, and according to the police, she fell straight on her face, but she has no facial fractures. So she fell hard enough to do all that damage to her neck and her vertebrae, and have all these hematomas on her head, but no...

• 1:15:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Breaking bones or fractures on her face.

• 1:15:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:15:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's odd, right?

• 1:15:53Derrick Levasseur?

  It is odd. I'm gonna play devil's advocate a lot in this episode because I feel like I have to for us to cover all our bases. I have had cases like this. Um, there was one out of San Diego that I covered. Rebecca's a howl, but it was her, her stepson Max who had some abrasions. And one of the opinions, or I guess hypothesis on how he received those abrasions, but didn't have severe fractures to the front of his face is that in the moment where you go over a railing, right? Whether you, you intended to or not, there's gonna be a moment when you're grasping for something and you may be able to grab those railings. If we pull back up that picture again, where as you're going over headfirst, you could grab the railings and actually slide your face or smack your face

• 1:16:37Derrick Levasseur?

  off of those railings, those ballisters, I should say, not the railing itself, and cause some abrasions as you're going down, where you'd have significant trauma to the neck and the back of the head, not to the face, and yet it's still be plausible. So I am not an expert in this area. I'm just offering my opinion based on my experiences, but there's no doubt, there's, there's many people out there way more qualified to talk about this than, than I am. But I will play devil's advocate just so we're being balanced. But I do agree with you. It looks suspicious. Something on the surface doesn't appear to be adding up here.

• 1:17:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something's not right. Yeah.

• 1:17:13Derrick Levasseur?

  You just expect it where you're like, okay, she fell over and the things align. There are outliers sometimes where anomalies occur, and that's why I'm talking about it. But just, there could have been a moment where she goes over, let's just say accidentally, she loses her balance or whatever, and she attempts to stop herself from going over and in the process, kind of grips onto something and bounces off a few things before hitting the ground. Is that highly likely? No.

• 1:17:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, you'd probably see blood on different places.

• 1:17:40Derrick Levasseur?

  You would expect to. She had a cut on her wrist or whatever, but you know, I'm just putting it out there because it's not a physical impossibility. That's all I'm saying.

• 1:17:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. Well, they did obviously a toxicology. Tam's blood alcohol content was .238, which is high.

• 1:17:56Derrick Levasseur?

  That's high, that's high, yeah.

• 1:17:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  She also had THC in her system and Xanax. But interestingly enough, Tam was not prescribed Xanax and the police didn't find any Xanax in her purse or bag.

• 1:18:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 1:18:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the people at the party that night, they all consistently denied giving Tam any Xanax. But there was one person at the party who was prescribed Xanax. We're going to talk about that later, trust me.

• 1:18:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, and then we're talking about Elazepam, right? So basically, someone who had a prescription for Elazepam, also known as Xanax.

• 1:18:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, exactly.

• 1:18:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 1:18:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Tamla's cause of death ended up being due to multiple blunt force injuries and her manner of death was listed as accidental. The ME's final autopsy report was received by the Forsyth Sheriff's Office on February 6, 2019, and on February 20th, investigator Kalen called Dr. Coop Miners, telling him that the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office was closing the case that day. He asked the ME if he was comfortable with the following statement, quote, "The deceased's injuries, along with the investigative findings from the scene, conclude that this death was an accident as a result from a fall consistent with the height of the deck and railing to the ground below," end quote. And Dr. Coop Miners told Kalen that this was an accurate and appropriate statement in the case, and that day, the case was officially closed.

• 1:19:16Speaker 09

  The state of Georgia Medical Examiner has ruled the death accidental and consistent with a fall. Wednesday, Forsyth County Sheriff's Major Joe Perkins announced a GBI-led autopsy found no signs of foul play. No evidence or injury patterns indicative of an assault. Horsford's father spoke to Atlanta DJ Ryan Cameron's radio show after the sheriff's announcement.

• 1:19:41Speaker 10

  Her injuries are not consistent with what they're saying. This is so fishy, I just don't want you to get out of your hand.

• 1:19:50Speaker 09

  Her father says a pathologist they hired found injuries on Tamla's body, they believe, happened after she was already dead. They believe someone may have tossed her body off of the deck.

• 1:20:01Speaker 10

  Her wrist was cut.

• 1:20:04Speaker 10

  The bone was broken. Where they said the body was, there was no blood pool. That means she was already dead.

• 1:20:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, we're going to get into the nitty gritty of what actually happened that night and the next morning from the mouths of the people who were there.

• 1:20:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:20:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, on November 9th, 2018, so this is a few days after Tom's body is found, Corporal Mike Christian and Tyler Sexton with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office interviewed Jose Barrera, and he went through the events of the evening. He talked about the Cards Against Humanity game, which he referred to as the most collective thing that they all did that night. And then he, along with the others, started cleaning up. He said that he turned on the television in the only bedroom on the main floor for Marcy Harden and Jennifer Morell, who were going to be sleeping in that room. He said he did this around 1 a.m. He then went down to the basement to get his cellphone charger, because he left it down there earlier when he was watching the football game with Tom, and he came back up for bed.

• 1:21:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Jose was also asked about the conversation that his girlfriend, Jean, had with Tam before going to bed. Remember, Jean told the police when they came that day that Tam was up still, she was energetic, she still wanted to chat, she was trying to get people to stay up.

• 1:21:16Speaker 07

  So, you said earlier that you and Jean had talked to Tammy right before going up to bed?

• 1:21:28Speaker 11

  Um, I think they had somewhat of a conversation, to some of the extent of Tammy not wanting her to go to sleep, or like wanting her to stay up, whatever. Um, I was not privy to that. That's just what Jean said, that they had a conversation, but I can't verify that at all.

• 1:21:45Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:21:46Speaker 11

  If that happened, it could have been when I was down in the basement, but I never saw it specifically.

• 1:21:51Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:21:52Speaker 11

  When I came up from the basement, saw Tammy in the kitchen, just glancing over and saw that she was there.

• 1:22:00Speaker 07

  Who was she with?

• 1:22:01Speaker 11

  I just saw her by herself.

• 1:22:02Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:22:03Speaker 11

  But from that, I guess that vantage point, from coming up from the basement, there is that wall there.

• 1:22:09Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:22:09Speaker 11

  So I just kind of saw her through here, kind of up where the stove would be. But I can't see anything back in the kitchen, and I just went upstairs.

• 1:22:17Speaker 07

  Okay. So you went to bed then, about what time?

• 1:22:22Speaker 11

  Ballpark, maybe 1:30.

• 1:22:26Speaker 12

  Okay.

• 1:22:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it is a small inconsistency, but Jose did tell the responding police officers on November 4th, 2018, that when he and Jean went to bed, they had a conversation with Tamla, and she quote, "told them she was going outside to smoke a cigarette and then would either go to sleep in one of the Myers children's rooms, or would sleep on the sofa." End quote. So the next morning, Jose said he was woken up by Madeline Lombardi knocking on the door of the bedroom he shared with Jean, and Madeline said, "I need Jose." So then Jose and Jean got clothes on and followed Madeline.

• 1:22:59Speaker 12

  So from the time she knocked on the door, woke y'all up till the time y'all were talking to 911, what's that timeframe like?

• 1:23:05Speaker 11

  Uh, I mean, she knocked on the door, "I need Jose." Okay, she said, "I'm worried about him, we're your friends." I'm going, "Okay." She went out the room.

• 1:23:19Speaker 12

  Got dressed?

• 1:23:20Speaker 11

  Got dressed. And Jean was like, "Do you want to need my phone?" I said, "Grab it just in case." We went down, and I mean, I just made my way all the way down.

• 1:23:29Speaker 12

  Okay.

• 1:23:30Speaker 11

  And, uh...

• 1:23:31Speaker 12

  Where did she take you to?

• 1:23:33Speaker 11

  Uh, back deck.

• 1:23:35Speaker 12

  Okay.

• 1:23:36Speaker 11

  So, went out on the back deck, saw her lying there.

• 1:23:42Speaker 11

  Went down and checked on her, and then told Jean. Got... I'm trying to think if she was already on the phone with 911.

• 1:23:52Speaker 12

  What did you do when you went down to check on her?

• 1:23:54Speaker 11

  Uh, kind of trying to get her attention, like, "Hey, Tam."

• 1:24:01Speaker 12

  Like tapping on the back, or...

• 1:24:02Speaker 11

  Yeah, just hand on her back.

• 1:24:03Speaker 12

  Yeah.

• 1:24:04Speaker 11

  Like, "Tam."

• 1:24:06Speaker 11

  And then, there's no response.

• 1:24:12Speaker 11

  Uh, I couldn't, I mean, and I checked on her twice. One was that time when I wasn't on the phone, 911, and the second time was when I was on the phone, 911, and they asked me to check.

• 1:24:26Speaker 11

  Can't remember if when I was on the phone 911 is when I like, kind of like grabbed her leg and moved it and I was just like, like is she stiff already or not? Um, but it was one of those. What did it, what did it feel like? Um, I tried bending her leg at the knee and it just wasn't bending the way you expected to. Okay. Did you touch her anywhere else, move anything else? Just lower leg.

• 1:24:55Speaker 07

  Somebody moved her arm. Cause you told me previously that both arms were like by her side?

• 1:25:02Speaker 11

  Correct.

• 1:25:03Speaker 07

  Do we know who moved her arm?

• 1:25:05Speaker 11

  I have not a clue. Um, when I was on the phone 911 and I checked, I'd gone back inside the house and I stayed on the phone with them until Corey Miller got there. I walked him through, out on the back deck. You know, obviously showed him what we saw and he told me to stay upstairs, like up on the back deck and that was the last time I ever saw her. Okay.

• 1:25:28Derrick Levasseur?

  That's interesting to me. There's a lot there because what that investigator is describing is, or I guess I should say what Jose is describing is rigor mortis, right? At the time when he finds Tam and that's interesting because I gotta refresh my skills here, but from zero to eight hours, you have like early onset rigor mortis where it's not full rigor. And then after, after eight hours, between eight and 12 hours, you're going to have like full stiffness. Like I've been there, I've been there at those moments. You can't move that body at all. Whatever position it was in, it's stuck in. And then after 24 hours, it starts to dissipate. So what it sounds like he's describing to me is late in the onset process, early, early of the full rigor, which is about

• 1:26:11Derrick Levasseur?

  eight, eight hours. But if we're to believe that she was still alive at approximately 2:00 AM and she's found at approximately 8:30 AM, it's only about six hours. So I guess it could be closer to the full rigor. Which I guess would align, but it seems a little early and maybe would suggest that she was dead earlier than that. That's the one thing I take from it, but it is possible. Everybody's different. The temp- what was the temperature to that day? Do we know as well?

• 1:26:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was cold. Yeah.

• 1:26:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, that could have also played into that.

• 1:26:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, it's November.

• 1:26:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that could enhance, that could cause a little bit more stiffness a little earlier on.

• 1:26:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm just gonna sort of summarize what he said.

• 1:26:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, there's a lot there.

• 1:26:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, Jose said on November 9th, that's not when he touched Tam, but this is when he's talking to police, November 9th. He tried to get Tam's attention. He put his hand on her back. He grabbed her leg and moved it, tried bending it at the knee. What he said, it wouldn't move at all, right?

• 1:27:06Derrick Levasseur?

  That's rigor mortis he's describing, yep.

• 1:27:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, remember, you said that when they called 911, it was like they didn't even know if she was dead yet.

• 1:27:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. He had said that he had went out there, but didn't really do like a full, a full check of her. Just touching her knee is not gonna tell you if she's alive or dead.

• 1:27:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, but if you're saying her knee won't move at all, her leg won't move at all, you're, I mean, a normal person would be like, hey, this person's probably not alive, right?

• 1:27:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:27:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Corporal Mike Christian then reminds Jose on November 9th, when he talks to him, hey, when you talked to me on November 4th, you told me that Tamla's arms were straight down by her side, palms up. But remember, when the police arrived, they found Tam's body and her right arm was by her side, but her left arm was away from her body and bent at the elbow. And...

• 1:27:48Derrick Levasseur?

  We could see that in the photos, by the way. The photos that we can see, they're public photos. If you want to go look them up, I don't recommend it, but if you do, you can see the position of her arms.

• 1:27:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he's like, well, who moved her arm? And Jose's like, I have no idea, right? Like, I, I, I touched her and, and I touched her back and then I tried to move her leg and it wouldn't move. And then that's the last time I saw her, basically. Now, Jose also talked about some things he found that morning. So on that same day, Lieutenant Andy Callen arrived and he went inside to question people. And when he went inside, he recognized Jose Barrera from being a felony probation agent in Forsyth County. And Barrera told Andy Callen that he had checked for a pulse on Tamla's body and in the process may have moved her arm. Now, this wouldn't come out until years later when the GBI conducted their own investigation. So Andy Callen doesn't say this until the GBI questioned him.

• 1:28:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because he's with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office, the GBI reopens the investigation later. They questioned Andy and he's like, oh yeah, Jose did say that. So then on August 3rd, 2020, GBI agents went to talk to Jose and they asked him about this discrepancy.

• 1:28:57Speaker 13

  You told me last time that you did not move on, right? Correct. Well, this is just why I wanted to clear this up. So I went through the precise case file and it says on Wednesday, November 7th, 2018, I spoke with witness Jose Barrera by telephone about this case. He told me that once he learned the seizure was lying face down in the backyard. Jose told me that he then proceeded downstairs and checked the left arm of the victim for a pulse. So he indeed had manipulated the left arm of the victim, moving it away from her body in the position observed at the time of the pulse. Is that right or wrong? It's bullshit. Is it? Well, that's what I wanted to hear. Okay, so that's wrong. Yeah. There's nothing, I'm not, I'm not getting any, yeah, I'm not going to sue this, I got you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:29:42Speaker 13

  We have to, we have to account for this. Yeah. And so, we have to know that this is saying that, um, you know, you, you. Right, that, that I, there's no way. Do you remember that? Do you remember saying that? Who, who, who? Kaylin? Andy? No, like I honestly don't remember saying that, like in the least.

• 1:30:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so I want to cut in here because this audio is very hard to hear.

• 1:30:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It is, yeah, I was struggling.

• 1:30:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  I almost wonder if it was intentional because out of all of these interviews that have very clear audio, this one is so tough to make out. And I had to do a lot of manipulation actually to make it clear at all. But you can hear the GBI agents and they're like, hey, you told Andy, Kaylin, on November 7th over the phone that you did go out to check for a pulse and in the process you did manipulate her arm.

• 1:30:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:30:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you can hear Jose say, that's bullshit. And he also is like, who did I say that? Andy? I said it to Andy. So he's talking to about Andy Kalen, who's a police officer by his first name, because as we will come to find, Jose and Andy do know each other.

• 1:30:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah, clearly by him calling him Andy. Yeah, no doubt.

• 1:30:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it seems their relationship may have gone a bit further than just this brief recognition that Andy Kalen had when he walked into the house on November 3rd and saw Jose sitting at the table. And he's like, oh, yeah, I know that guy. He's a felony probation officer. It goes a little bit further than that and we will get into it, but let's move on with Jose's early interview with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office. So remember, this is in November of 2018. We're kind of going back and forth a little bit, but stick with me because what you just heard was from a GBI interview that happened in 2020. Now we're going back to Forsyth County Sheriff's Office interview in November of 2018.

• 1:31:34Speaker 11

  Right. Um, so when I initially went out there to, uh, to see what was going on, there was a loose cigarette and a lighter laying on the back deck. And I think just as OCD as I am, I walked out and it was just kind of in my path from, you know, the door to the railing where I looked out and I just, I mean, like if I'm coming through this doorway right here, like it would be like a cigarette and a lighter laying about right there. I mean, I walked up, set it on the fire pit and just kept walking.

• 1:32:12Speaker 07

  Okay. So you actually did that before you saw Tam or anything?

• 1:32:16Speaker 11

  Oh, yeah. Wouldn't have moved anything if I knew what I was bound to walk up on.

• 1:32:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. So first we have Jose claiming up and down that he never touched Tam's body, definitely not her arm. Right? Then we have him telling Andy Kalen a few days after Tam's body is found that he did.

• 1:32:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then when he's confronted with that in 2020, he says, that's bullshit. I never said that. I honestly don't remember touching her arm. And now we have him in 2018 saying, oh, well, when I went out on the, the, you know, balcony. Before I even saw Tam's body, the first thing I saw was a loose cigarette and a lighter that was sitting on the, the ground of the balcony and I'm OCD, so I picked it up and I put it on the fire pit, right? So this is when he went outside to see what Madeline was talking about after she came into the room and was like, "Hey, you gotta come outside." So Jose refers to this as the back deck. He's talking about the balcony, right? So that is the, the off the main area of the house.

• 1:33:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And according to those at the party, this is where Tam would go out, onto the balcony deck to smoke. But he also says that he put it on a fire pit and I can't for the life of me think of why somebody would have a fire pit on a second floor balcony that's covered, but maybe it was like a smaller one. Anyways, he goes out, he finds the cigarettes, or the cigarette and the lighter, he puts it on the fire pit and that's when he sees Tam's body on the ground. So Jose also talked about how Tam FaceTimed with her daughter that night when they were all together in the living room. And he said it was probably during the Cards Against Humanity game, which makes sense if they started playing at midnight and the game went on for about an hour, because we know that the call happened at 12:32 a.m.

• 1:34:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, this timing is important because we have also heard that Nicole Lawson and Sarah Cockerham left the house at 10:30 due to childcare issues. And in the same interview, Jose confirms that these two women left at 10:30. But here's Nicole's interview on November 9th, 2018.

• 1:34:20Speaker 14

  And then around 10:30, another, well, probably around 10 o'clock, another, one of our friends showed up and that's when I started saying my goodbyes to everybody. I had a dog at home I needed to get to, so I left at 10:30, talked to another-

• 1:34:36Speaker 07

  Who showed up at 10?

• 1:34:37Speaker 14

  That was Paula. Paula Seals showed up pretty late. It was somewhere around 9:45 or 10. And then, you know, I guess her daughter had a game that night and she couldn't get here before. So I left and talked to another girl that left at the same time I did, Sarah, on the way home, just to make sure she got home okay. And both of us went to bed.

• 1:35:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  But minutes later, in the same interview, Nicole goes on to say this.

• 1:35:05Speaker 07

  Did you have any interaction with her during the party?

• 1:35:09Speaker 14

  Um, yeah, you know, we all kind of just hung out together and she was, she was really, she just had a full of life personality. So she was all over the place. She was on her phone with her daughter, excited about her new grandbaby coming. And so we FaceTimed with her and, and then, you know, she just, we just hung out. It was nothing, nothing short of, you know, just a boring, a boring night in the house.

• 1:35:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that throws off the FaceTime call, right?

• 1:35:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  So this is the question that people ask. If the FaceTime call with Tamla's daughter happened at 12:32 a.m., but Nicole left at 10:30 p.m., how would she have been present for this FaceTime call? Now, I would refer back to the same screenshot to bring some possible context to this question, because you can also see on the screenshot that it shows there were four FaceTime calls between Tam and her daughter the day before. It doesn't show timestamps. It just says yesterday, which would have been the day of November 3rd.

• 1:36:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it would have been the night of the party.

• 1:36:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Since we don't know what time these calls happened, it's very possible that Tam talked to her daughter at some point that evening before Nicole left.

• 1:36:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 1:36:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  But those calls could have also all happened before Tam ever got to the party, right? Because Tam's husband, Lee, says that his daughter talked to Tam after Tam FaceTimed him around 10:30 p.m. But I guess it's possible that another FaceTime call between Tam and her daughter happened while she was at the party before Nicole left. But that would be a very small window, right? Because if Tam got there, people say different things. Jean said eight. Most people don't say eight. Most people say 8:30, 8:45. So if it was closer to 8:45 that Tam got there and Nicole leaves at 10:30, and we know that Tam's husband, Lee, said that she had FaceTimed their daughter after she talked to him on FaceTime at 10:30, that couldn't possibly be the FaceTime talk, call he's talking about.

• 1:37:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  So at some point in between like an hour and a half, Tam would have had to have FaceTimed her daughter for Nicole to have been present for that.

• 1:37:09Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, I'm looking at the screenshot right now and you can see the hubby screenshot, which is kind of like at the very bottom. That's obviously the FaceTime that Lee's referring to. And then there's a few that are blacked out. So I'm assuming those are people not connected to this case. But then you do have the my baby girl FaceTime, but it looks like it's for missed FaceTime calls. I don't think it would show it in red with four if she had picked up on one of those. I think it would show it in black like it does does with the hubby here. Unless maybe that means because she didn't call out and they called in. I don't know. But

• 1:37:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know.

• 1:37:39Derrick Levasseur?

  However, just to go into what may have happened with Nicole here, there's got to be an explanation for it. And I don't believe it's nefarious in nature, just that part of it. I'm only and this is the reason why. It would be very, very easy for law enforcement to discredit her alibi. Right? It would be very easy for them through camera systems, neighborhood ring, or simply safe cameras, her own security system, whatever they have to say, hey, you told us you left at 10:30. We're able to prove based on tracking you that you didn't leave till 1. Like even the most basic police officer would be able to discredit her if she's lying. So I tend to believe it's more in line with it's an earlier FaceTime.

• 1:38:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  We haven't really gotten there yet, but the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office didn't really do a lot of things to verify people's alibis and what they were saying outside of just asking them. And that's going to become the issue with this.

• 1:38:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's a problem.

• 1:38:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:33Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm not disputing that. But my thing is, let me just play it out here. Let's say Nicole's involved, right? She doesn't know that Forsyth is going to do a shit job, right? She has to assume that, hey, I'm going to say I left at 10:30. They're going to be able to find out I'm lying very quickly. So there's a better lie to make here is what I'm saying. So there's some reasonable explanation for us. It doesn't completely exonerate anybody, in my opinion. But I'm just saying that there's, there's got to be a, a simpler explanation as to how this happened because she's on FaceTime. She's talking to, she's with, she's with Tam at that point. And there's a FaceTime that we see it yesterday. It's a video call. All there they have it on they have it blocked.

• 1:39:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Most of them the between that and then there's the one at 1219 and then the one at 1232. If my baby girl was another one of those, they would have it unblocked. You can kind of.

• 1:39:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you can tell that it's not based on the length and like the emojis and stuff. Yeah.

• 1:39:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Right now, if we had access to the screenshot, the phone, we could easily click that I and see exactly when those times came in and law enforcement.

• 1:39:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you're right. They are missed. They're four missed calls.

• 1:39:38Derrick Levasseur?

  They're four missed calls. So I have questions as much as you do, but I'll just say this to wrap this up. If they were lying about when they left, it'd be pretty dumb to do it because there's data here to discredit what you're saying. So there's got to be something more to this that this piece that we're missing. Because they don't know that law enforcement is not going to go and corroborate their story. And it'd be a big gamble to say, yeah, I left at 1030 if you didn't leave till one.

• 1:40:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  This data didn't come out until the GBI reopened it after people were outraged that the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office closed it.

• 1:40:11Derrick Levasseur?

  That makes sense to me. My, I guess, let me pose it a different way. If Nicole's lying, there's no way she can project or predict that Forsyth won't check into what she's stating. I'm not disputing that they didn't do it, but my point would be if Nicole's initial statement is, I left at 1030. And when this originally occurred, how does she know that they're not going to go check cameras from the surrounding neighborhood to say, wait a second, you didn't leave her house till one o'clock in the morning?

• 1:40:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so that's part of this, right? There's. There were several people in that house that had connections to Forsyth County Sheriff's Office outside of Jose.

• 1:40:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 1:40:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Friends, things like that. So maybe Nicole was assured by those people.

• 1:40:54Derrick Levasseur?

  They wouldn't check into it.

• 1:40:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're not going to look into this too deep. They're going to do a quick investigation. Show like they're doing stuff and then they're going to close it out and say it was an accident. Which is exactly what they did. If you kind of look at the at things, I mean, at first they come up with this like, oh, she must have tripped over the. The landscape divider and fallen and then they, you know, do their little investigation and, and they rule it as an accident and they close it out. So, but without doing all the things that they should have done to make sure they closed it out. Yeah.

• 1:41:23Derrick Levasseur?

  And that would have worked both ways, right? Like if they had done their due diligence, again, I always talk about as a detective playing defense attorney and prosecutor, right? Like not only finding evidence to support whatever happened, but also finding any exculpatory evidence to rule out certain people or other potential theories. And when you don't do that, you open the door for a potential prosecution down the road where now they can use it as a form of reasonable doubt. So you have to also cross-reference any information you have to make sure, even if it doesn't seem possible, it's your job to vet those theories so that if it ever does go to trial, you can say, yeah, that would have been plausible. However, we took that into consideration and we vetted those theories by looking at the cameras leading from the house to the other house. And this is what we found and

• 1:42:06Derrick Levasseur?

  we can see this or whatever. And not doing that opens up a lot of speculation and rightfully so. They didn't do their job to the fullest extent. But yeah, this is, um, this is an interesting one. And the fact that we're spending so much time on it is because it's important, right? We have to be able to account for everybody who was there and who wasn't there. And we, we believe that whatever happened to, to Tam would have happened between, let's just give us a big window here. Let's say 1230 because that's the last time she's seen on videos. That's the last time someone outside the house saw her. So that's what I'm going with. Forget everybody in the, the, the building. They're all, they're all persons of interest, right? But the last outside party to talk to her was her daughter at

• 1:42:48Derrick Levasseur?

  1232. So for me, the window was 1232 to even, let's say 232, based on the stage of her body at the time when it was found. We know that was early onset or the early stages of full rigor. So she had been dead at least six hours at that point, which puts you at at least two, 230. So I would say 1230 to 230 for our window.

• 1:43:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Jose then talks about how he could see how Tam might have fallen off the upper deck. He said everyone was drinking and to his knowledge Tam had a lot to drink, but as far as the way she was acting, she was fine. She wasn't acting especially drunk or intoxicated.

• 1:43:26Speaker 11

  What do you think happened? What I think happened? See, we've been out on that back to the exit. It was just kind of looking like.

• 1:43:37Speaker 11

  And I even leaned over the railing myself. Yeah. It's not until I'm significantly over it that I'm coming off my heels and start to feel uneasy. And I'm thinking if I was that intoxicated and I was gonna throw up. I wouldn't need to really put myself over to that degree, because I mean, I think. I mean, it comes up to probably about here, you know, I really have to put myself on it. Yeah. It's not like it's gonna undercut my hips and my weight's gonna take me forward. Um, if I had to guess, and it's really inexplicable as to why, I should have been sitting on it. Right. But I just don't.

• 1:44:22Speaker 11

  Had you ever seen her sit on it? No. No, that, well, okay, so I will say this, um, that y'all forgot to ask, there was one point where, let's see, that would have been me, Tom, Tamla, Jean, I think there might have been somebody else out there, but I can't remember who. That they were trying to get the fire pit lit. Mm-hmm. And ultimately, they couldn't get it lit, and I said, screw this, it's cold, and people went tricking back inside. So there was a point where a small group of us were out on the deck. But in no way was the deck any other kind of focal point of a hangout area for the party. Okay.

• 1:45:06Speaker 11

  Did you, how many times did you see her go out there and to smoke or whatever? Uh, just a handful, I think. Anybody ever go out with her?

• 1:45:17Speaker 11

  Not that I know of. Okay. I think I'd just kind of be sitting in the common area and then more or less just kind of see her come back in. Yeah. And so I never thought much of it. So if you had to guess, you're thinking the most logical thing is that maybe she sat up on the edge of the rail and. Right. Just fell? Yeah, and in my, you know, I talked about that propane tank there, I'm like, did she? Did she step up on it to get up on the rail?

• 1:45:42Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 1:45:42Speaker 11

  Did she kinda do like, oh, need to hop up on it? And go, I said, yep.

• 1:45:48Speaker 12

  Is that, uh, was that where the propane tank was?

• 1:45:52Speaker 11

  I think it was, cause I, I talked to Tom and I asked him about it. And I think when, when they were struggling to get that fire pit lit, they didn't know if it was a tank issue or what. And he said, he just grabbed it, slid it over.

• 1:46:02Speaker 12

  Right.

• 1:46:03Speaker 11

  Out of the way.

• 1:46:04Speaker 07

  All right. Just, just to be blunt, you didn't throw her with the rail, did you?

• 1:46:08Speaker 11

  No, I didn't.

• 1:46:08Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 1:46:10Speaker 12

  Any reason, anything that you've come up with and conversations with people that would lead you to believe that anybody would have done that?

• 1:46:17Speaker 11

  None.

• 1:46:17Speaker 12

  Or any issue with anybody.

• 1:46:19Speaker 11

  Not at all. Okay. You know, I know that that's been some speculation and chatter. Just thinking, nobody has anything to gain. There's, there's, it's just really inconceivable. The mind is to watch.

• 1:46:34Speaker 12

  Just questions we have to ask.

• 1:46:38Speaker 12

  So, well, yeah.

• 1:46:39Speaker 11

  I'm clear.

• 1:46:39Speaker 12

  We think that that's what happened, but it don't know what.

• 1:46:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. So just to clear the deck, cause we're about two, you know, maybe three fourths of the way through this episode. We got a lot more a B roll to go over, but I, I just wanna kinda put potential theories in my mind, what we're looking at here. And one would be an accident, right? She's on the railing. I don't think you can say she would have been facing forward or backwards at this point, although if she was leaning over the railing to vomit, I think you would see vomit on the ground. Yeah. You don't. Yeah. So I think that's out of play here as far as the reason for getting up on the railing. I do think it's possible she could have sat on the railing and not balanced herself correctly and went over. And even so, even though her head is facing away from the balcony, it would still be possible if on the way over, she tried to grab something and it contorted her body and she twisted and maybe

• 1:47:24Derrick Levasseur?

  bounced off of it and fell that way. I still think that's possible. I've seen, I'm gonna actually tell you a story real quick, cause I think it's relevant here. It's embarrassing for me, but I'm gonna tell it anyways. My kids will laugh at this. I recently went to New York. I can't believe I'm telling this story. I recently went to New York City with my girls. And there's, if you've ever been to Moynihan Hall. I can't, this is so embarrassing, but I, I was like, your, your dad's pretty good at this stuff. I used to be able to slide down the railings. They have like these metal brass railings coming down into Moynihan. If you've been there, you know what I'm talking about. And I told Peyton that I could slide down the whole railing in one shot and it was like long. And my dumb ass hopped up on the railing. I had sweatpants on. This railing was a lot slicker than I thought.

• 1:48:10Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm sliding, I got about halfway Stephanie and I felt my balance off a little bit and I knew I was going backwards. So I tried to grab myself like on the railing to stop it. And instead, because I like grabbed the railing so hard, I flipped over backwards and kind of landed on my knees. I don't know if that's making sense, but I tried to catch myself and instead it just caused my shins to bounce off the, off the stairs. And it was embarrassing because the security guard was yelling at me in front of my kids and it was very embarrassing. But so that's anecdotal experience where your natural reaction is to try to grab on and prevent yourself from falling. It was a failed attempt. So as far as I'm looking at it right now, accident is

• 1:48:52Derrick Levasseur?

  obviously a possibility. I also think there's a, an angle where something, some, something more malicious happened inside the residence and to make it look like a fall, she was thrown over the balcony, which would give you some of these injuries, not all of them. And then there's a possibility that she had some type of medical emergency, something happened while on that balcony and she went over in the process of that, although I would expect to see signs of that in the autopsy, right? So that's kind of the three avenues I'm going with right now. And as far as where we are in the story, I think all three are still at play.

• 1:49:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I don't see how she could sit on the railing, because why would you sit on the railing with your feet outwards? That's how you'd fall forward. Otherwise you'd be falling back.

• 1:49:35Derrick Levasseur?

  What I'm describing on this Penn Station or the Moynihan thing is my feet were actually facing in. So I, I wish I had a visual here to represent this, but imagine you're on the railing, your feet are inside. Like, so you hop up on the railing and when you hop up, because she couldn't be tall enough to just sit up on it, right? You hop up on it and you just, you're off by just a millimeter. And when you do it, because you've been drinking 2.3, I think you said 2.3 or 2.8.

• 1:50:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  2.38, I believe, yeah.

• 1:50:02Derrick Levasseur?

  2.38. Okay. So you, you jump up there. I, again, I don't know why you would do that, but. You've been drinking, smoking a little bit. We don't always make the best decisions, right? So she hops up on there to kind of just like relax. I don't know why she would do it. I'm just saying. And when she does, she realizes, oh, I'm about to go over and she grabs the railing. She grabs the top of the railing, but that's not going to stop you or brace you from still falling backwards. So as you grab it, you would kind of almost twist because your hand is going to lock up. That's your natural instinct. You're going to have a strong grip in that moment because you're scared. And as you do, you'd go over, but you wouldn't just naturally flip over. You'd kind of twist in a way where you'd bounce off the ballisters before coming to your final resting

• 1:50:47Derrick Levasseur?

  spot. And I would defer to a biomechanical engineer in this. This is not something I would testify to in court, but that's just from a layman's perspective could have happened. It also could be that she was leaning forward, right? Where she, for some reason, was leaning over the railing. Again, I can't explain how, but she would go, you know, her feet would go over her head. She would do almost a 180 degree spin in the air and land in the way we see her. So I think that's more plausible, but I can't with 100% certainty say that she couldn't have been leaning backwards either.

• 1:51:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. And I mean, he's talking about the propane tank. So they

• 1:51:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, why would you do that?

• 1:51:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  So when the police found, when they came on November 4th, they noticed that the dust and debris and stuff had been wiped off the top of the propane tank. And so obviously they're asking like, oh, why was that propane tank like at the place where it was and why was it?

• 1:51:39Derrick Levasseur?

  You can see it in the pictures.

• 1:51:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he says, well, I think because they were trying to get the fire pit started and they thought it was like a faulty tank. So they just shoved it to the side. So.

• 1:51:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you can see that if you go to that picture, which we can show, you see, for anybody who's not on, on video, you gotta, you have a picture of the balcony. There's, it's a huge balcony. They have two like dining room tables, like, you know, kind of like areas where you can congregate and sit down. Pretty nice. And then there's like a table up against the balcony in one section. And then there's a propane tank like you would find with a grill

• 1:52:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:09Derrick Levasseur?

  up against the railing as well. And you could look at that and say, well, that would be something you could stand up on to get on the railing.

• 1:52:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why would you do that?

• 1:52:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Why would you do that? I, I, why would you do that? There is also like a, an envelope on the balcony. I'm assuming, and I hate this, but that's from detectives.

• 1:52:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  It could be, yeah.

• 1:52:25Derrick Levasseur?

  And they didn't remove it from the picture, which is just an asshole move. Like you're not supposed to have things that you added to the picture there because now people like me are looking at it. And I'm going to be questioning what this is for 10 days because that could be significant. That could be the key to this case. And in reality, it's Joe Smith's folder that he left on the, on the table before taking the picture.

• 1:52:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right.

• 1:52:45Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, so that's, that's a problem. Also, just to point one more thing out. The, the way this house is, and this is important. It's, it's in an area where it's densely populated. And so the other houses are right next to it. Like you can literally see.

• 1:52:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  They have a six foot privacy fence though.

• 1:52:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Six foot privacy fence, but this balcony is above it and you can actually see into your neighbor's balcony and the neighbor next to the neighbor's balcony. So. I do wonder what interviews were done with the surrounding neighbors because they would have had a clear line of sight to that balcony. And I would also wonder if they had cameras as well. So these are things that you may give us the answer to, but I would, I would be asking those questions.

• 1:53:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  They did some interviews with the neighbors, but we'll, we'll talk about that. So.

• 1:53:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 1:53:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. Let's take our last break and we'll be right back.

• 1:53:30Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:53:37Derrick Levasseur?

  I've definitely been there where you're sitting there like I'm eating my own food. I'm like, wow, this is awesome. And then I look over at my dog, Vinny, and he's eating these mystery pellets. And I'm like, I'm, I'm not a good dad. This is not, this is not, this is not right.

• 1:53:49Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:54:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and the air-dried option is super convenient. It's an air-dried plan. It's shelf-stable. It needs zero prep, which makes life a lot easier for everybody. It's unlike kibble that's heavily processed. This is minimally processed to preserve nutrients like protein, vitamins, and antioxidants that support gut health, immune health, and a healthy coat, all things your dog will thank you for.

• 1:54:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, the fresh food actually looks like real food. I've noticed that and it's not gross. It looks like real human food. Some of it honestly looks like something I'd eat. I haven't tried it. I'm not going to tell you that, have you?

• 1:54:58Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I think you should, though, for everybody.

• 1:55:00Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:55:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so on November 9th, Forsyth County Sheriff's Office detectives interviewed Madeline Lombardi, and they recorded her statement. Now, remember, Madeline lived with Jean and Jean's boyfriend, Jose. And Jean referred to her as an aunt, but she was not related to Jean by blood. So Madeline said that on Saturday, November 3rd, the first person to arrive to Jean's house for the party was Nicole Lawson. She got there between 4:00 and 4:30 p.m. She arrived with food and decorations, and so Madeline helped her get those things set up. Forty-five minutes to an hour later, Jean and Stacy Smith arrived, and Madeline thinks Jean went upstairs to take a bath, do her makeup, get ready, etc. Madeline said that other people started trickling in up until 7:00 PM and past 7:00 PM.

• 1:56:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then the last person to arrive was Tam and she got there sometime after 8:00 PM. Now, as we know, Tam was not the last person to get there, even though a lot of people say that. We heard in, I think it was Nicole's interview.

• 1:56:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, Nicole said Paula showed up.

• 1:56:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  She said Paula got there late.

• 1:56:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Bridget Fuller actually arrived after Tam because Madeline talks about all the girls being in the living room and taking a picture of them.

• 1:57:05Speaker 15

  The, uh, when the game came, got ready to come on, the LSU game, all the girls went, sit, uh, well, let me backtrack a minute.

• 1:57:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:15Speaker 15

  The next person that arrived was, um, let me think of her name. Bridget and her husband.

• 1:57:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 1:57:25Speaker 15

  Okay. So Bridget and her husband got here, um, the girls were already on the couch and they were saying, Bridget, come sit down. And then, uh, Tam was gonna take a picture of everybody on the sofa and she wasn't in the picture and I said, no, go sit down over there. I'm gonna take the picture. So then I took a picture of everybody.

• 1:57:47Derrick Levasseur?

  And we had that photo.

• 1:57:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, we do.

• 1:57:49Derrick Levasseur?

  We had that photo for you guys if you're on video. Again, even if you're just more of an audio listener, when you have some time, come over to the YouTube, fast forward to this timestamp, check out these photos because they add so much context.

• 1:57:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so Madeline says that Bridget got there after Tam. And remember, Bridget is technically the last person to see Tamla Horsford alive.

• 1:58:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:58:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  And this is what she had to say in her interview with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office on November 14th, 2018.

• 1:58:18Speaker 16

  I was there first. Tam got in late.

• 1:58:23Speaker 16

  She came hopping along into the front door, trying to take her boots off to be considerate. New carpet. So she was hopping around, trying to get her boots off, left them at the, at the, whatever you call that, hutch or whatever there in the dining room.

• 1:58:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:58:39Speaker 16

  She brought her bag in, laid it down behind the backside of the, um, sectional couch.

• 1:58:49Speaker 16

  And insisted that she was ready to put her pajamas on. So she put her pajamas on. Uh, they made drinks. Made complete asses of themselves dancing. Um, Jose sat back with his camera making it look like he was doing something when he was really recording it. It was very embarrassing for them, not me. And, um. And of course Tam knows that, um, you know, I'm in a shell. I haven't quite warmed up yet. So, you know, in her little stupor she was in, she's like, oh, there is no hiding. So she comes and she plops on top of me.

• 1:59:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:31Speaker 16

  You know, meanwhile, I'm holding this bottle and I'm like, I don't want to spill this on Sean's furniture. So Jose's beside me and I'm like, dude, can you take this? Can you take this? I think that picture is even in there. And, you know, and, and she was all lovey, lovey and, and she's a very sweet person. Some of it could be brought out by alcohol. Maybe some pot. I don't know any other extracurricular activities. None of my business.

• 2:00:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:00:01Speaker 16

  Don't push it on me. I have nothing to say about what you do. But I have my lines. And, um. Just as happy as could be.

• 2:00:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  So first of all, before I say anything, you will come to find Bridget Fuller is a piece of work. Okay?

• 2:00:17Speaker 17

  Okay.

• 2:00:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's talking about Tam. So according to Bridget, she's already there. Tam comes in, she's bouncing around, getting her shoes off, then she throws herself on Bridget. And Bridget's like, oh my God, this girl so much, right? But according to Madeline, Bridget and her husband got there after Tam got there. So it's like, once again, who got there when? Because nobody can figure it out. But another thing that everyone said was that no one had any issues with Tam, right? Of course, the police asked that, like, were there any issues, personal issues? Did there, were there rivalries? Did somebody not like her? Everyone said no. Everyone was great. There were no arguments, no tension. But here's Bridget Fuller, the last person to see Tamla Horsford alive.

• 2:00:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she's talking about her in that night and she kind of sounds like annoyed with her. You know, like, uh, you know, maybe she was smoking marijuana. I'm not going to judge anybody. Everybody was making fools out of themselves. I'm not going to judge, not me, of course, not me. I'm the, you know, responsible one. Now, she doesn't seem to be a huge fan of Tamla, to say the least. Now Bridget said that they all hung out that night and then people started to go to bed and leave. So Bridget's also talking about Tamla and everyone drinking that night. And according to Bridget and most of the partygoers, all of the partygoers that that talked to the police about that night, Tamla was not acting intoxicated at all.

• 2:01:42Speaker 07

  Tam, how much did she have to drink?

• 2:01:45Speaker 16

  Oh, that woman was a seasoned drinker.

• 2:01:49Speaker 07

  Really?

• 2:01:51Speaker 16

  I've been there. I can, I can spot it. She's, she's, she definitely a seasoned drinker.

• 2:01:58Speaker 07

  Okay.

• 2:01:59Speaker 16

  It would take an enormous amount to knock her on her ass. And I honestly think for her to get to that, knock her on her ass, she would have probably ended up with alcohol poisoning and been throwing up.

• 2:02:16Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:02:16Speaker 16

  Because your body can only take so much of that shit and it's like, it's gotta go.

• 2:02:21Speaker 07

  Right.

• 2:02:22Speaker 16

  You know, um, I mean, no, she held it well. She, she was not, she was not sloppy and disoriented. To put it bluntly, she wasn't like our friend Jen.

• 2:02:38Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:02:38Speaker 16

  Jen cannot handle her like her. And then she goes through that whole, who's me, I gotta eat worms. Nobody likes me anymore. Like, shut it.

• 2:02:50Speaker 16

  All right, I'm gonna take a bottle of water and squirt it up in your brain and clean it out for you. So, yeah, I mean, I'm just, and I, I don't generally try to pass being ugly on the, on the first go around. I, I, you know, like, I do get, I do get an intuition with people.

• 2:03:16Speaker 16

  Some people say it's creepy. I don't know.

• 2:03:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Bridget's basically saying, hey, Tamla could, she drank a lot, but she could hold her alcohol. She wasn't acting intoxicated at all, unlike our friend Jen. She's talking about Jennifer Morell, who was acting very intoxicated for much of the night. Bridget said Jen was getting all high pitched and screaming that nobody liked her. Woe is me. I'm going to eat worms, etc., etc. So then we hear that Bridget's up with Tamla. And Tamla's actually the one who walks Bridget to the door.

• 2:03:52Speaker 16

  I hung out a little bit longer with Tam and I'm like, I'm like, it's no offense to you, but Jen was really overwhelming for me.

• 2:04:02Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:04:04Speaker 16

  And there's just a lot of, you know, things I still gotta get used to. And I'd feel better if I was at my own home.

• 2:04:12Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:04:12Speaker 16

  Because I wanna slept there. I don't sleep at strange people's houses. I will stay up all night long. Because I just don't know what to expect.

• 2:04:21Speaker 07

  Right.

• 2:04:22Speaker 16

  You know, that whole sleeping with one eye open thing.

• 2:04:24Speaker 07

  Sure.

• 2:04:25Speaker 16

  And, um...

• 2:04:26Speaker 07

  You're just not comfortable.

• 2:04:28Speaker 16

  I just, I have trust issues.

• 2:04:30Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:04:31Speaker 16

  So, um, I hung around for a little while longer with her, waiting for Gary to show up. She was eating a bowl of gumbo.

• 2:04:40Speaker 07

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:04:40Speaker 16

  At the island. She was not stumbling. She was not splurging anywhere. She wasn't drooling. Like, I had to worry about a bib. None of that. I mean, she seemed

• 2:04:54Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:04:54Speaker 16

  perfectly fine. And, um, Gary texts me and told me, um, that he was there. I was putting my shoes on, grabbing my bags, headed to the front door. She walked me to the front door. She gave me big loves and hugs and she even gave me a kiss on the cheek. And she's like, you know, I just love you. I'm like, you just love the things I do. Because I'm the mother hen. And she goes, no, you're really a good person. Okay, well, thank you very much. I appreciate that. And I'm like, now take your ass in the house and finish eating your gumbo.

• 2:05:31Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:05:33Speaker 16

  I mean...

• 2:05:35Speaker 16

  And maybe it's a mothering instinct or something, but I'm like, go put more food on that belly. I know how much liquor you took in. Put more food on that belly. And um, she shut the door behind me and I told her, I was like, make sure you lock it.

• 2:05:51Speaker 16

  And pretty much that was, that was it. I walked out into the driveway, got in the, in the Explorer with Gary. And, and we took off. And that was like one forty-five-ish.

• 2:06:03Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:06:04Speaker 16

  You know, give or take seconds. She walked me to the door, gave me kisses, so my DNA will be all over them jammies. Because the woman, I don't know why, but she just felt the need that she needed to kiss me and hug me. And because I'm a socially awkward person, she thought it'd be fun to, while I was sitting there minding my own business. And I was working at this party, mind you.

• 2:06:32Speaker 07

  And the picture I've seen you're in there on your laptop like.

• 2:06:34Speaker 16

  Yeah, yeah, but I do it all the time. I mean, I work all weekend, all week. My shit doesn't stop. Now, do I do it for long, lengthy, lengthy periods? No, but I do have to keep up on things.

• 2:06:47Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 2:06:48Speaker 16

  So I was sitting there doing that and everything and she goes, I just don't think you're in the full swing of this. And she comes over and she jumps on my lap and she, she straddles my lap and she goes, you need to relax. Meanwhile, I had a bottle in my hand and I'm like, Jose was beside me. I'm like, here. This is gonna end up on the carpet and it's gonna piss John off.

• 2:07:14Speaker 16

  I'm constantly chasing cups and stuff under people's asses. I'm like, you're gonna knock it off. It's gonna make a sticky mess. See? Mother hen.

• 2:07:24Speaker 16

  And uh, yeah, I mean, she was playing around and everything and, you know, having a good time.

• 2:07:31Speaker 07

  Right.

• 2:07:32Speaker 16

  I didn't have any problem with it. She'd go out to smoke and if I wasn't out there with her, somebody else was out there. Didn't let her go out by herself.

• 2:07:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so remember, Bridget's the last person to see Tam. She said she leaves her on one forty-five, you know, one forty-seven, whatever. Now, you heard Bridget kind of talking about um.

• 2:07:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  She she goes back and forth. She talked about how Tam walked her out, walked her to the door, and gave her a big hug and a kiss. And she's like, my DNA is gonna be all over those jammies. Because she felt the need to hug and kiss me. And once again, this does not sound like somebody who's Tam's biggest fan. Right? Because she's like, ah, you know, I I'm just the mother hen. And Tam said, I love you. And I said, you love what I do for you. You don't love me, you know, just very weird. And she says something, and then she goes back in the night, and she's talking about how she's sitting on the couch and Tam's all over her again. And she said, and you'll see, like, I was very reserved. I'm on my laptop. And you can see her in that picture where all the girls are there. She's sitting on her laptop. She does have that open. But she also says something that's interesting. She said,

• 2:08:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  well, when I wasn't out there with her when she was smoking, somebody was. We didn't leave her alone to smoke. Whereas Jose is like, no, I never saw anybody out there with her.

• 2:08:49Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a lot to unpack here. And I know I talked about potential scenarios of what played out here. I want to add a couple wrinkles to it because we talked about the overarching theories, which is, you know, this was an accident, or it was a homicide that was made to look like an accident. The other wrinkles, as we start to learn about the dynamics going on in that house that night, Tam appeared to be, and this isn't a negative thing, by the way, a little touchy feely, you know, drinking, doing whatever. And it happens at parties all the time. My buddies are same exact way. It's I love you, man, we call it, you know, where they're, you know, they're, this isn't for everybody, but they're a little bit more like, you know, hanging on you, messing with you. And when we think about potential wrinkles here, it doesn't have to be one end of the spectrum or the other, where this was a intentional homicide, or it was a tragic accident.

• 2:09:30Derrick Levasseur?

  It could be somewhere in the middle, where, as you just said, Bridget put out there, that Tam never went out on the porch alone. And so she could have been out there with someone, and maybe they're hanging all over each other, right? Because we got to go back to the timeframes here, right? 1:49, the door opens to the balcony. 1:50, it closes. And then it opens again at 1:57, but never closes. Now, if we're to assume that that door opens, and someone goes out there with Tam, if it's Tam that goes out there, they could have been out on the balcony playing around. Maybe I love you, man, both of them, hugging each other, wrestling a little bit, inebriated, lose their balance. And there's an accident that happens while they're play fighting or hugging, someone goes over. Obviously, that person would be Tam. So the other person runs back inside,

• 2:10:14Derrick Levasseur?

  doesn't shut the door, lets everybody know what just happened. And they're like, oh, we're all screwed. This is not good. We're not saying anything. Doesn't have to be an intentional homicide where they staged it to look like an accident. There could be something in the middle there. So having this context of how Tam was acting, and by the way, again, not a negative thing. It's the truth. It's what it is. Some people may have been okay with it. Some people may have been annoyed by it. Is it possible that they're out on the balcony? Tim's hanging on someone. They're annoyed by it and they push her off of them and she goes over? Also a possibility. So just to add those wrinkles into what potentially happened here, based on what Bridget is telling us. I think it's important, especially when you consider the fact that at 1:50 that door was left ajar.

• 2:10:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Why would you do that? That's someone in a rush. That's someone running back inside because they're forgetting the commonsensical thing to shut the door and lock it before the end of the evening.

• 2:11:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe, yeah.

• 2:11:10Derrick Levasseur?

  On the other hand, you could say it's someone who's inebriated, but based on what we have here, and that more than likely whatever occurred happened on that balcony. I would go with the notion that someone ran back inside and was clearly thinking about other things.

• 2:11:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so now we're going to hear from Bridget. Because remember, Bridget said she was leaving at 1:47 a.m. after everybody went to sleep.

• 2:11:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she said 1:45 exactly in that, in that thing.

• 2:11:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. She says she doesn't like to spend the night at people's houses. She's got trust issues, etc., etc. So as Tam walks her out, this is the conversation they have, and it's very important what Bridget claims Tam said.

• 2:11:46Speaker 16

  She said she was going back in after she locked me out to finish her gumbo, go have a cigarette,

• 2:11:55Speaker 16

  and then go to bed.

• 2:11:58Speaker 16

  She did have a brief conversation about maybe trying to drive home. And I'm like, Tam, I don't agree with that. Take, take a few hours, take four hours or something, lay on the couch, just... Just let your body man some before you do anything stupid. There's no reason.

• 2:12:20Speaker 04

  Right.

• 2:12:20Speaker 16

  You made casserole for the kids in the morning for breakfast. There's no rush. Just sit.

• 2:12:26Speaker 04

  Mm hmm.

• 2:12:27Speaker 16

  Just sit and veg.

• 2:12:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Bridget said that Tam was thinking about going home when Tam walked Bridget out, right? And Bridget's like, no, you've had too much to drink. There's no reason to do that. You made breakfast for the kids. Don't worry about it. Just, you know, chill.

• 2:12:43Speaker 15

  Yep.

• 2:12:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, she's not the only person who said that Tam wanted to go home that night. And here is Lee, Tam's husband, supporting that he believes Tam would have wanted to go home.

• 2:12:56Speaker 17

  Do you know why she wanted to go home? Did anyone ever tell you what the issue was that made her decide it was time to go home? I know you said she was.

• 2:13:05Speaker 04

  Nobody had to tell me. There was a, there was a, there was a little clip of a video that I don't know if it's even out there. I don't know who has it, but I remember seeing it. And I remember seeing my wife standing on one foot. She was standing on one foot with her, with the, the, the, the, not the heel, the, um, the arch of her other foot, like up into where her knees at. And there was a lady, I think her name was Jen Morell or something. I, I don't know, but I think that's who it was. Who she was talking to. And when she was talking to her, I've seen that face numerous times, numerous times. I know that face. And she was not happy.

• 2:13:49Speaker 17

  She wasn't happy. You could see that something was going on.

• 2:13:53Speaker 04

  Oh, yeah. And so I wanted to know what that conversation was about. And nobody has ever told me anything because I know she was not happy during that conversation. And I could hear whoever was filming it, you could hear guys in the background. One said me two and another one said me three. And then it cut out and it was like a short clip. I don't know what happened. I don't know.

• 2:14:16Speaker 17

  But something happened.

• 2:14:18Speaker 04

  Something happened to piss her off.

• 2:14:19Speaker 17

  Someone from the, and, and in the reporting that the police have shared, it's clear that at some point, from the moment that you spoke to her and she seemed to be happy. That she decided she wanted to go home. And then what I have read is that people that that someone inside the party said she couldn't go home or shouldn't go home because she had been drinking and obviously she didn't need to drive. But there was some conversation about her potentially ordering Uber or something like that. And still they prevented her from leaving.

• 2:14:52Speaker 04

  I don't know if there was a conversation about ordering an Uber.

• 2:14:55Speaker 17

  Okay, I might be wrong.

• 2:14:57Speaker 04

  I I I've never heard that.

• 2:14:58Speaker 17

  Okay.

• 2:14:59Speaker 04

  This is the first time I'm hearing that one.

• 2:15:01Speaker 17

  Okay.

• 2:15:01Speaker 04

  But one thing I do know about my wife, and this is, I mean, it may not be a good thing. But we're both from the islands and we both grew up drinking. And she could handle her liquor. She could handle, I mean, and she she would drink like straight shots of tequila. And she, you know, she didn't like really drink. You know, somebody said she was mixing Mountain Dew with, somebody at the party said she was mixing Mountain Dew with, my wife doesn't even drink Mountain Dew. Uh, you know, and it's like, there was just a bunch of things that they were saying that don't add up. But my wife would have made it home. I can guarantee you that a hundred percent.

• 2:15:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, so the video he's talking about is a short clip. Tam's talking to Jen Morrell and he's like, yeah, there's clearly something wrong. It could have just been the Jen, Jen, like everyone said, was just trashed, inebriated, out of her mind and annoying everybody.

• 2:15:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Everybody was drinking pretty heavily that night, if we're being honest.

• 2:15:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly.

• 2:15:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Everyone was definitely inebriated.

• 2:15:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  But we are not done with Bridget Fuller. Okay, so around the time that the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office was wrapping up their investigation and getting ready to put out that press release, they called Bridget to ask her a few more questions. Now, the person talking to Bridget on the phone in this next clip is Detective Andy Kalin, remember, Jose's friend. And something interesting comes out during this conversation because apparently at some time after her first interview with the Forsyth County Sheriff's Office and before this phone call, Bridget was pulled over in coming and she called the investigators who were assigned to the Tamla Horsford investigation.

• 2:16:35Speaker 18

  Hey, Bridget, Andy Kalin, how are you, hon?

• 2:16:41Speaker 18

  You okay?

• 2:16:43Speaker 19

  Um, I, um, I guess.

• 2:16:46Speaker 18

  Yeah, you're fine. We have sent the investigation to somebody else for review.

• 2:16:56Speaker 19

  Yeah.

• 2:16:57Speaker 18

  And when we came back, we thought that there was one or two questions that we just wanted to ask you. And that, it'll, it'll be like two minutes, and it's myself and Sergeant Sexton in here. And he'll just ask you the two questions and we'll be done.

• 2:17:12Speaker 19

  But I don't trust people.

• 2:17:14Speaker 18

  I understand. But you trust me. You called me that night when Cummings stopped you and I helped you.

• 2:17:20Speaker 19

  Oh my, oh my God. Yeah.

• 2:17:24Speaker 18

  Remember? And I, I sent Jason to help you out and give you a ride home and I didn't let you down.

• 2:17:30Speaker 19

  I didn't, I didn't have him drive me home. I drove home because even though he was on your, you know, your list.

• 2:17:38Speaker 18

  Right, right.

• 2:17:38Speaker 19

  Um, I still only trust so far so I'm like, you can follow me home.

• 2:17:43Speaker 18

  But that worked out?

• 2:17:47Speaker 19

  I have, I don't know. I just have issues.

• 2:17:49Speaker 18

  Yeah, it's okay. We, we, we respect that. I really do. And we don't want to trample on your issues and, and, and make you any more upset or, you know, and give you any more anxiety. We just want to ask you these two questions.

• 2:18:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so is that weird? Because like you said, every person in that house, until that investigation was closed, would be a person of interest.

• 2:18:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 2:18:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she gets pulled over for something unrelated, like a trafficked, traffic infraction or whatever.

• 2:18:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 2:18:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she calls the detectives who are investigating the death of Tamla Horsford, who she technically is a person of interest. She calls them to help her instead of like calling her husband to pick her up or...

• 2:18:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I don't know. I don't, that makes no sense to me.

• 2:18:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's weird, right?

• 2:18:32Derrick Levasseur?

  And her behavior is crazy in that moment. I don't know, like...

• 2:18:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's weird. She's a piece of work.

• 2:18:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Pick up the phone and, yeah, it just seems odd. The whole, the whole conversation, the whole interaction is odd to me.

• 2:18:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  So would you consider that a conflict of interest, though, that these detectives are like helping her out with other law enforcement bodies?

• 2:18:47Derrick Levasseur?

  A hundred percent. Yeah, it's a, at minimum, it's a conflict of interest. I would argue that if there was something more there. They probably wouldn't be putting that over a recorded line where he's like, hey, remember I helped you out? But at minimum, yeah, can't, no disputing it, conflict of interest for sure.

• 2:19:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  But remember, this call doesn't come out until later.

• 2:19:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  When the GBI is investigating.

• 2:19:05Derrick Levasseur?

  For sure, but it's still on a recorded line.

• 2:19:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 2:19:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Again, could just be a moron, but I wouldn't be putting stuff like that over, over a recorded phone line if you're concerned, if you, if the potential of it being investigated later could come out. But yeah, at minimum, there's a professional standard there and you have to separate yourself from that. You shouldn't be doing any favors for anybody, never mind people you're investigating.

• 2:19:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they said they got to ask her two questions. One of the questions the detectives wanted to ask Bridget was about her Xanax prescription. Because remember, Tamla Horsford had Xanax in her system.

• 2:19:34Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right.

• 2:19:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  During her autopsy, but she did not have a prescription for Xanax and none was found in her bags. Bridget Fuller, however, did have a prescription for Xanax and apparently it was always on her person. She wore it in a necklace around her neck.

• 2:19:48Speaker 12

  I know you take Xanax, you had it, you know, you have it around your neck, you wear it in a little.

• 2:19:52Speaker 19

  I did not give anything to anybody.

• 2:19:54Speaker 12

  That's all I wanted.

• 2:19:55Speaker 19

  I need my drugs.

• 2:19:56Speaker 12

  I understand you do, uh, so, so Tam, you know, the autopsy or the toxicology report showed she had some Xanax in her system. Um, and it wouldn't matter if you did give it to her, if she took it.

• 2:20:07Speaker 19

  That's not that I didn't, but I'm telling you, truth on, I am telling you, if you really, really, really want to know the truth, like when my Christian and you were there.

• 2:20:16Speaker 12

  Yeah.

• 2:20:17Speaker 19

  You have me, that you have me take my medication, I cannot lie. I don't know if it's a, if it's a satisfactory one, but I could tell you my deepest, darkest secrets. And you know what? It wouldn't be a lie.

• 2:20:28Speaker 12

  Right.

• 2:20:29Speaker 19

  Might be embarrassing as hell, but it would not be a lie.

• 2:20:32Speaker 12

  Okay, so you, so she didn't ask for any Xanax?

• 2:20:35Speaker 19

  No.

• 2:20:35Speaker 12

  Give her any Xanax?

• 2:20:37Speaker 19

  No.

• 2:20:37Speaker 12

  Okay.

• 2:20:38Speaker 19

  No.

• 2:20:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  So according to Bridget Fuller, she needs her medication, okay? She doesn't give it out to anyone and when she's on it, she can't lie, right? It's like a truth serum, so. She she's gonna tell her deepest darkest secrets, even though she has trust issues and she trusts nobody. Now, the people who were at the party, they all consistently said that everyone is having a great time, getting along. There were no personal issues and no tensions between Tamla and anyone else there. Now, during her first interview, like I said, Bridget sort of seems like Tamla might not be her favorite person, but she also says she has trust issues and she deals with anxiety, so maybe it wasn't anything personal. But during this phone call, Bridget expresses something a bit different.

• 2:21:19Speaker 19

  Stacy came up with the idea of, let's just all get together at Jean's and then nobody has to worry about driving. We'll watch the football game and we'll just chill out and it'll be, you know, a relaxed type of thing. Fine, okay. And like I said, the girl that goes to the slumber party and has to call mommy and daddy because there were still too many people I wasn't comfortable with. And Tam was one of them. I mean, I didn't know her well enough.

• 2:21:44Speaker 12

  Right.

• 2:21:45Speaker 19

  And and there are pictures. I don't know if you ever saw them or not. Ask somebody about them. But there's pictures where I'm sitting on the very edge of the couch, minding my business with my computer most of the time because I was working. And she comes over and she she plops on my lap and straddles me and she grabs my boobs. Okay. She had no idea of personal boundaries.

• 2:22:08Speaker 12

  Right.

• 2:22:08Speaker 19

  And then I don't give strange people well.

• 2:22:10Speaker 12

  No, and I understand all that. And I believe you. I just I just for the record, wanted to ask you if you've got any knowledge of her taking any Xanax or if she might have gotten it from you or if you-

• 2:22:21Speaker 19

  Actually, believe it or not, they all tried to be hush hush about the fact that she she was smoking something.

• 2:22:26Speaker 12

  Right.

• 2:22:26Speaker 19

  I'm not an idiot and I know what it smells like.

• 2:22:29Speaker 12

  Right. Yeah.

• 2:22:30Speaker 19

  I mean, for Christ's sake, you know, Matthew has to take the the liquid of it for his seizures.

• 2:22:36Speaker 12

  Mm hmm.

• 2:22:37Speaker 19

  Jean's oldest son. So, I mean, I'm I'm familiar with that smell.

• 2:22:42Speaker 12

  Okay.

• 2:22:43Speaker 19

  But it's none of my business and I don't do it.

• 2:22:46Speaker 12

  Right.

• 2:22:47Speaker 19

  I have asthma. It wouldn't make any sense for me to start coughing on stuff.

• 2:22:50Speaker 12

  Right.

• 2:22:52Speaker 19

  So, I mean, no, I I did not give her anything. And no, I did not see her put anything in her drink. Um.

• 2:23:00Speaker 19

  I honestly don't know where or how or if it was already in her system. Depending on how much she took.

• 2:23:08Speaker 12

  Well, it was a very, very little amount, you know, so it's.

• 2:23:12Speaker 19

  Okay, so if it was a little amount, then she had taken it while she was there?

• 2:23:16Speaker 12

  Well, not necessarily. I mean, you know, if it was remnants in her system from days prior, that could be too. So, I mean, there's just, but.

• 2:23:25Speaker 19

  It stays in that long?

• 2:23:26Speaker 12

  It can, yeah.

• 2:23:28Speaker 19

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 2:23:30Speaker 12

  It was a very small amount, so it's no big deal. I just wanted to ask you on the record if you had any knowledge of it, if she'd gotten it from you or you'd given it to her, anything like that, so.

• 2:23:42Speaker 19

  I do not give my stuff, I do, no, uh-uh. I need my drugs. You see me, I have to have them.

• 2:23:51Speaker 12

  Is there anything else that you think I need to know or whatever? I'm pretty much done at this point.

• 2:23:57Speaker 19

  Um, I will tell you that she was a, and like I said, that was only the second time I've seen her, and we did not have like a, you know, an awesome friendship that had been building for years. But she was very touchy-feely, she was very loving-like, you know, like everything I did, every good thing I did picked up after people, which is what I do. That's part of my nervous coping skills, is I clean up. And she's like, "Oh, I love you, I want to take you home with me, blah, blah, blah." But she was extremely touchy-feely and huggy and loving and everything.

• 2:24:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so it seems like now, Bridget, it's more like, you know, I have these instincts and I have issues with people, and Tam was one of those people. So she's kind of admitting, "I didn't really like her."

• 2:24:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, didn't like her, didn't like her behavior, didn't like she was touchy. We talked about a couple of minutes ago, right, where?

• 2:24:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 2:24:59Derrick Levasseur?

  I think this could be a potential motive, especially when you go back to the conversation that Lee had with that interviewer as well, where in his opinion, knowing his wife, she's in a posture that's suggestive of her being upset, of her being pissed off at that moment. So could there have been a conversation where someone approached her or said something to her where they're like, "Hey, you're touching too much, don't touch me, I don't like your hands on me." Could have been Bridget, could have been one of the other people there, so. When you, when you look at this and you're trying to figure out the, what happened and the why, it is a potential motive, not necessarily for a homicide, but for a disagreement or maybe a minor physical altercation that occurred in the, you know, moments before going over the balcony. So these are all things we have to take very serious because it could be insight into what actually happened that night.

• 2:25:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Bridget's also kind of making her sound like not just like touchy feely, but almost like sexual, like over sex. Like she grabbed my boobs, you know, like, all right, girl, chill out.

• 2:25:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I mean, listen, you know, to each their own, right? But I, I can understand how someone who may not like that, you know, right? If you're not drinking heavily, you may not want some random person that you just met one or two times coming up and fondling you. I can't fault her for that. But for me, what's more important here is I don't think Tam was doing anything maliciously. She wasn't, it's just her way of, you know, being, being affectionate.

• 2:26:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's extroverted. Yeah.

• 2:26:17Derrick Levasseur?

  It's not for everybody. And, and listen, it goes both ways, men and women. Like I was just saying a few minutes ago, I have buddies of mine. Once they had a couple of drinks, it's, I love you, man. They're, they're hugging, they're kissing your cheek. It's like, whoa, you know, I'm okay with it. You know what I mean? Like I've been there, but not everyone is, especially if they don't know the person that well. Everyone has their own boundaries, but for me, it's still significant because if she's doing it with Bridget, if everything that Bridget is saying is truthful, she's probably doing it with everybody there. And maybe someone else had more of an issue with it, which, and, and they were still there when whatever happened, happened.

• 2:26:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  But it sounds like Bridget really hates it.

• 2:26:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Did not like it.

• 2:26:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Really hates it.

• 2:26:54Derrick Levasseur?

  You're, you're not wrong. You're not wrong.

• 2:26:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  So remember Bridget vehemently denied giving Tamla any Xanax. Not only that, she vehemently denied ever giving anyone any Xanax. She needs her meds. She's not giving them out to anyone. Fast forward to a few years later, when the GBI reopened and were investigating Tamla's case. This is a phone call between a GBI agent who I believe is Kelly Aldrich and Stacy Smith. Stacy's another woman at the party. Stacy had already had a longer in-person interview with the GBI that we'll come back to in the future, but during this interview, She said that Tam was smoking weed the night of the party and she admitted to smoking with her. And we'll see this a lot. Aunt Madeline admits to it too, by the way, but everybody was like, no, Tam was the only person smoking cigarettes and weed.

• 2:27:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Please, everybody's smoking. Well, mostly everybody.

• 2:27:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, nobody was like, oh, we're all smoking weed. Everybody was like, she was the only person smoking cigarettes, the only person smoking weed. But the truth starts to come out. So Stacy admits, she's like, yeah, I took a puff of it.

• 2:27:53Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt.

• 2:27:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know?

• 2:27:54Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. Come on.

• 2:27:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  And during that same interview where she admitted smoking the weed, she's actually the one that brought up Bridget and her Xanax necklace. And then after this first interview she had, Stacy said this on a phone call with GBI.

• 2:28:06Speaker 03

  We talked about Bridget and her Xanax, and I know that you had said that she, as far as you knew, she didn't give Tam any. Have you ever gotten Xanax from Bridget?

• 2:28:15Speaker 20

  Um, I did after the fact. She gave me some. My, um, goddaughter, she killed herself. So, and I had to plan the funeral, so she come in, she gave me one after that.

• 2:28:29Speaker 03

  Okay. When was that around about?

• 2:28:32Speaker 20

  Taylor died November, uh, December 10th. So it was right after that.

• 2:28:37Speaker 03

  And that was 2018? That was after Tam died?

• 2:28:41Speaker 20

  Yeah, Tam died in November and Taylor died, uh, December.

• 2:28:46Speaker 03

  Okay, so she gave you Xanax after your goddaughter died?

• 2:28:49Speaker 20

  Yes.

• 2:28:49Speaker 03

  What about after Tam died?

• 2:28:52Speaker 20

  Uh, don't recall. I don't think so. Cause I know she just gave it to me to calm me, calm me something down. And my doctor wrote me a prescription for something, but it wasn't Xanax to help me sleep because I was having nightmares. And that was after Tam died.

• 2:29:07Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:29:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so Stacy now says, okay, yeah, Bridget did give me Xanax, but this was after Tam died. And it was a month after. She said that her goddaughter Taylor had taken her own life and she had to help plan the funeral. And because this was so upsetting to her and she was so close to Taylor and, and all of that, and she was involved in the funeral planning. She was very stressed out and Bridget notices and gave her a Xanax. Now, these interviews and calls were not made public until the following year. And when the Justice for Tamla Horsford Facebook page posted them, there were a few interesting comments underneath Stacy's phone call.

• 2:29:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Someone said, quote, "I know Stacy personally and have for years. It blows my mind that she stated she's the godmother of Taylor and that she was planning a funeral. She was not Taylor's godmother, nor was she involved in the funeral arrangements," end quote. Then someone else posted, quote, "You are not Taylor's godmother. You had nothing to do with Taylor's funeral planning. Please quit using the death of my granddaughter for your advance to give credence to your problems," end quote. And then yet another person wrote, quote, "She didn't plan my daughter's funeral, and I never made her my daughter's godmother. She is full of shit," end quote. So I looked into this, right? Because these could be anybody. That last person who said, "My daughter, I looked into her Facebook page, and she did in fact have a daughter named Taylor who took her own life, and the person who referred to Taylor as his granddaughter is in fact this woman's father."

• 2:30:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that checks out. So first of all, it's weird that Stacy saying, "Oh, I got Xanax because of my goddaughter, and I was planning the funeral," and all that seems to be a complete lie. But Stacy admits to receiving Xanax from Bridget, even though Bridget said she never gives her medicine to anyone, but only after Tamla died. Remember, not around the time Tamla died, a month later. So the GBI investigation then turned up text messages that showed Stacy had sent Bridget a message on November 4th, the morning that Tam was found dead. And that message said, quote, "I hate to ask, but can I please get more meds? It really helps me," end quote. Bridget responded affirmatively, and they coordinated a time and place to meet and exchange the Xanax.

• 2:31:15Speaker 03

  Did Bridget give you anything the morning Tam died while you were back at the house, and then meet you later that night to give you anything? No, I don't recall. I do not recall at all. Okay, so you'd be surprised to know that there was a text on your phone to her asking her to meet you to give you some more of her medicine because it helped you that morning? Okay.

• 2:31:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not gonna say I didn't.

• 2:31:39Speaker 03

  Okay. That's fine. You just don't, but you don't remember it?

• 2:31:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I don't.

• 2:31:45Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 2:31:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  That whole time was a mess. Okay, so now we have proof that not only did Bridget give Stacy Xanax the morning Tam died, but gave her more later that same day. But Bridget's saying she doesn't give Xanax to anybody.

• 2:32:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she's full of shit. Yeah.

• 2:32:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Tamla has Xanax in her system. Bridget wears it around her necklace and apparently gives it out like lifesavers.

• 2:32:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. I mean, yeah, around the necklace is, uh, is interesting as well.

• 2:32:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's weird.

• 2:32:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Like you're trying to hide it. I mean, I know a lot of people who have a prescription now as a

• 2:32:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or you're trying to be obvious about it almost like I have Xanax around my necks because I have such bad anxiety issues.

• 2:32:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Odd. Odd. Now, does it mean she's a cold, you know, a cold blooded killer? No, it just means that just from what we're hearing, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, our victim has Xanax in her system. She doesn't have a prescription for it. It's a small amount. Could be in there from the days prior, more than likely not, right? And so you think about the people who had access to Xanax that night, and we've already proven that they have given out that Xanax. So they're lying to law enforcement. I think you can make the assumption that more than likely Tam was provided Xanax by, by Bridget. That's an assumption. It's not a guarantee, but based on what we have, it seems reasonable. Now the question becomes, why is she lying about it? Is it because she feels some level of guilt and may had, the Xanax may have contributed to an inebriation that led to a tragic accident? Or is there more to the story?

• 2:33:08Derrick Levasseur?

  We don't know because now we can't, we can't believe everything Bridget's saying.

• 2:33:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I thought it was interesting because earlier when she was on the phone, she was like, I didn't see her take anything. I didn't see her put anything in her drink, which is like, why would Tam put Xanax in her own drink?

• 2:33:21Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, no, that wouldn't make sense.

• 2:33:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  So where did that even come from? Almost like a Freudian slip, kind of, you know, like an unconscious thing. So Bridget is then confronted about this whole Xanax thing. Cause remember Bridget's like, absolutely not, would never give anyone my Xanax. Kelly Eldridge of the GBI went to her house because she had taken her cell phone, right? To, to get stuff out of it, extract it. And when the GBI showed up, Bridget was allegedly very ill. She was having some medical emergency. Kelly goes to the door and they're like, you can't talk to Bridget right now. She's really sick. And the Kelly Eldridge of the GBI, she's like, well, I'm just returning her phone. Like I can come back, but it wouldn't be till tomorrow, but I'm just returning her phone, et cetera, et cetera.

• 2:34:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now eventually, um, they do allow Kelly to go in and talk to Bridgette. And Kelly's like, here's your phone, but we are eventually going to have to talk about what I found on your phone. When it was in the possession of the GBI.

• 2:34:19Speaker 03

  Alright Bridgette, I do need to talk to you. We won't do it now because I know you're not feeling good.

• 2:34:25Speaker 03

  But I'll get with you in a couple of days, okay? When you're, hopefully when you're feeling maybe a little better.

• 2:34:30Speaker 21

  Bridgette, what you need is?

• 2:34:33Speaker 03

  Um, I need to talk to you because I'll tell you, I know you're on some medication, so I hate to talk to you about it right now.

• 2:34:39Speaker 21

  It hasn't impaired me that bad, obviously, because I'm still paying.

• 2:34:43Speaker 03

  Okay. Well, let me ask you, because yesterday you told me that you don't ever share your Xanax with anybody because you need it. So I haven't only gone through your phone, I've gone through Stacy's phone, and I know you've given Stacy some Xanax after this happened.

• 2:34:56Speaker 21

  Yeah.

• 2:34:57Speaker 03

  So with that said.

• 2:34:59Speaker 21

  Yeah, because she was, I mean, I thought she was gonna have a freaking nervous breakdown.

• 2:35:05Speaker 03

  Um, but I need to know then, because Tam got Xanax from somebody. It didn't come, it didn't just pop out of nowhere.

• 2:35:11Speaker 21

  No.

• 2:35:12Speaker 03

  And I want you to, I want to make sure it's real clear that you know, I'm not here to charge you with giving her anything. We just need to know where it came from.

• 2:35:19Speaker 21

  No. I knew Stacy well enough. I knew Stacy well enough that the woman was gonna crack, okay?

• 2:35:29Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 2:35:30Speaker 21

  I mean, she was going to fall.

• 2:35:32Speaker 03

  How many did you give Stacy?

• 2:35:35Speaker 21

  I gave her one.

• 2:35:37Speaker 03

  Did you give her one that morning and then want, and need her that night to give her another one?

• 2:35:42Speaker 05

  Just say I don't remember if you don't.

• 2:35:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, if you don't remember, and like I said, I'm not, and I'm gonna make this clear for you too, she's not being charged with distribution.

• 2:35:49Speaker 05

  I just know that when she's under.

• 2:35:51Speaker 03

  No, I understand.

• 2:35:53Speaker 05

  She can.

• 2:35:55Speaker 21

  She might have asked me and I couldn't.

• 2:35:57Speaker 03

  I can tell you from the text messages, it appears that you maybe gave her one at the house that morning. And then you met her that night to give her another one.

• 2:36:06Speaker 21

  Oh, that was a small one. Um, they, they come in different, um.

• 2:36:13Speaker 03

  Implements.

• 2:36:13Speaker 21

  Yeah.

• 2:36:15Speaker 03

  And then this March, did you give Jean any?

• 2:36:21Speaker 21

  Oh, Christ, probably, yes, probably.

• 2:36:24Speaker 03

  And the reason I'm asking, if you're honest with that, then I'm hoping you're gonna be honest about Tam. So that's why I'm trying to clear something up. We don't want it to look bad that you told me you'd never share with.

• 2:36:33Speaker 21

  Not with just, not with strange people. Like I told you, I spent an entire week with Jean in Florida. And it was a messy divorce and her husband was off. Tried to pick up all the kids and everything. I mean, I've, I've been through some stuff with her. And, yeah, between the two of them, they were, they were gonna break. Stacy is just emotionally unstable. But Jean had so much crap going on, her mom's got issues. Um, I don't know how much longer she's gonna be living. And her mom's dad had died. The boyfriend that her mom has now is actually gonna die because he has prostate cancer.

• 2:37:16Speaker 21

  And, uh, you know, her oldest son decided he wanted to go live with dad all of a sudden. And he's got serious issues medically. And then she was in the hospital several times because of her blood pressure. And.

• 2:37:31Speaker 03

  I'm not judging you for any of this, I'm just, I wanna make sure, cuz we don't want it to come out later that you've been giving Xanax to everybody. She doesn't normally. And then you've lied to me about it.

• 2:37:41Speaker 21

  No, like I said, strangers, I did not give my, my, my drugs out to, to strange people. Like I said, Jean I had spent a lot of time with. And Stacy, I, I swear to God, I thought it was for her best interest.

• 2:37:59Derrick Levasseur?

  So, I'm not gonna sit here and, and go through all of this. Here's the bottom line. As we're sitting here as a detective and the investigator kind of alluded to this, it's about credibility, right? If you're not telling the truth about something that's on the surface trivial, right? Like if you're giving one of your Xanax pills to a friend, I don't, I'm not condoning it, but at the end of the day, it happens.

• 2:38:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're not going to prison. Yeah.

• 2:38:23Derrick Levasseur?

  But to get on a phone call and basically present yourself as like the, the arbiter of truth, like you're out here, you don't lie, you can't do it. It's not just a character flaw where you have this inability to lie and you don't give your drugs to anyone. Well, we know that's not true. And now we're substantiating it with facts, with data. And so the only reason you're actually telling us the truth is because you can't lie.

• 2:38:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause you got caught. Yeah.

• 2:38:47Derrick Levasseur?

  You're red handed, you're done. And so just from a macro level, looking at it when we're trying to evaluate credibility, when it comes to a potential homicide, we can't trust you. It's that simple. That's the reason they're really dialing in on this is because if you're lying about this, you're going to lie about a death. And so Bridget, regardless of whatever else is going on in her life, is not credible. Can't trust a word she's saying. Period.

• 2:39:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, it's because now we find out not only is Bridget given Xanax to Stacy, but also to Jean, right?

• 2:39:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And she's lying about that.

• 2:39:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 2:39:19Derrick Levasseur?

  There's no reason she wouldn't lie about giving it to someone who passed away that evening. Now, again, doesn't mean it's a homicide, but could you be a contributing factor to that? Now Tam's drinking and doing Xanax and smoking weed? Yeah, that's not going to help her, right? And so she might be looking at it from that perspective.

• 2:39:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  But the whole point is she may have ingested that Xanax unknowingly and any,

• 2:39:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, that's all. Yeah.

• 2:39:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Like, like maybe, like maybe Bridget slipped it into her drink because anybody who takes Xanax, which I have a prescription for Xanax when I need it, you know absolutely you don't take that with alcohol. You do not mix Xanax and alcohol.

• 2:39:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Unless you want to party.

• 2:39:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  And no, I mean, unless you want to not be awake and conscious.

• 2:40:02Derrick Levasseur?

  I know of people who have dabbled in, you drink one drink and you have some Xanax and it enhances whatever experience you're having.

• 2:40:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  It would, it would knock me the hell out.

• 2:40:11Derrick Levasseur?

  I think everyone's different. I think everyone's different. I've been at parties for sure where they're drinking and doing Xanax, for sure. I mean, not recently, but in college where they're definitely taking Xanax and drinking. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but it's, it's a, it's a thing.

• 2:40:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  If you're on a prescription and you have Xanax, you you know very well and it says it, do not operate.

• 2:40:29Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, no, don't do it.

• 2:40:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do not drink alcohol.

• 2:40:32Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt.

• 2:40:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  It it really exacerbates.

• 2:40:34Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt, hundred percent.

• 2:40:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, which it's it's not good. So was she?

• 2:40:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, as far as the slipping in the drink, we it's an it's a theory. I have nothing to dispute it, especially when we have a person who's not telling the truth. My question would always go back to why, why, why is?

• 2:40:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know, maybe because it's like, man, this girl's so extra right now. She's so like, let's calm her down a little bit. Like, let's give her a little chill, not to mean like I'm gonna hurt her. Now, there are theories where Bridget was involved with something more malicious and we'll get into it. But if you're just looking at it at surface level, maybe Bridget's like, man.

• 2:41:05Derrick Levasseur?

  You'd have to grind it up.

• 2:41:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  This girl's really annoying. Yeah, she's really annoying me right now. Like, let me just give her something to chill her the hell out, right? Kind of thing.

• 2:41:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Or it could be exactly how it looks, right? Where Bridget's out there giving everybody Xanax who asked for it. You know, anybody who wants a pill, hey, we're all smoking, we're all doing pills.

• 2:41:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  I guess, but.

• 2:41:22Derrick Levasseur?

  It's it's also very possible.

• 2:41:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  But, you know, initially she says, I don't give it out to anyone. Then she says, I don't give it out to strange people.

• 2:41:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:41:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, why the hell would you give it out to strange people? Like, why are you just walking down the street handing out Xanax, like Tic Tacs? Like, you want, you get a Xanax, you get a Xanax. Weird.

• 2:41:38Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no credibility with Bridget at this point.

• 2:41:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and this is where we're gonna stop for today, obviously, but the twists do not stop coming.

• 2:41:44Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a short episode.

• 2:41:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, it's long, I know. Uh, the twists do not stop coming in this case. What has been presented in a lot of media and to the public as a very straightforward and accidental death is going to, in my opinion, look less so as we go on unraveling the evidence and looking at these eyewitness testimonies. I'm using quote, finger quotes, if anybody was wondering, because already we have so many inconsistencies. People being caught in in lies. And it doesn't matter what the lie was for. If you had a bad intention or a good intention, or if you're lying to cover up. Whatever. You're still lying during a police investigation into someone's death. Why would you do that?

• 2:42:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope, not smart. If it's something minor, like giving someone a pill or smoking a little weed, tell the truth because exactly what's occurring here with the GBI is what's going to occur. If they can prove that you're lying about that, they're going to assume that you'd lie about something more incriminating, something that could actually have some real repercussions. So, not good. When we're trying to verify that your stories are correct and that you have credibility when it comes to telling the truth, lying about something as minimal as, hey, I gave a friend a pill, not good. I do not advise that. It's going to come back to bite you in the ass. But yeah, this is a fascinating case. It is by no way, shape or form easy and just an easy solve of, hey, this was an accident, a tragic situation. There's so much going on here. At minimum,

• 2:43:09Derrick Levasseur?

  yeah, it's an accident where just a series of bad decisions led to something. I still have a hard time believing that even if this was an accident, right? Like Tam's out there and she sits on the porch, the balcony, the wrong way and goes over, that she was out there alone. And it's not just me saying that. We have data suggesting that someone walked back inside. Let's, there's one thing we know, right? Unless Tam opened the balcony door before falling off accidentally by herself.

• 2:43:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wait, I forgot to fall. Yeah.

• 2:43:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Then without a doubt, someone was out there with her. Period. So someone else more than likely was present for whatever happened to Tam. We have to find out who that person is. But it's a fascinating case. I understand why we're covering it. Can't wait to get into it next week. That's going to do it for us, guys. This was a long one tonight. I think it was pretty quick moving, even though there was a lot to cover. I hope everybody was able to follow it. I look like I'm a a serial killer at this point with my notes, but I'm going to try to decipher them after we get off this episode. Again, congratulations to Kalen on winning the Crime Con giveaway. We will be back next week with part two. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

• 2:44:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.