Rachel Hansen | The Pickle Jar, the Threat, and the Missing Horse (Part 2)

Please consider supporting Rachel's Rescue at https://rachelsrescue2022.com/ On June 4, 2022, 19-year-old Rachel Hansen called 911 from her apartment in Gilbert, Arizona, and told the dispatcher that someone had broken in and shot her while she was sleeping. Just minutes later, first responders found Rachel critically injured on the floor of her bathroom. She was rushed to the hospital, but despite hours of emergency surgery, she did not survive. To everyone who knew Rachel, the shooting made no sense. She was a successful young entrepreneur and a beloved daughter, sister, and fiancée who had her entire future ahead of her. She had no known enemies, no involvement in criminal activity, and no obvious reason anyone would want to hurt her...

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So today, we're picking up with the second and final part of the Rachel Hansen case, and I'll give you a little summary quickly, but before I do, do you want to say anything, Derek?

• 0:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, yes. As anybody who's on YouTube right now, you can see I'm wearing our exclusive CrimeCon, Crime Weekly collab, Vegas-style. Sold out. We don't have a single one left. This is all we got. Thank you to everybody who purchased it. And so that's the bad news. You can't get that one. That's something that you have to get. You have to go to CrimeCon if you want one. But the good news is, we had a lot of new merch that we launched at CrimeCon. We actually launched it a week prior on our Patreon, but for anybody who's seeing the Crime Weekly dailies that we put out when we were there, we have some really cool merch designs. We got the "No Theories, Just Vibes." We also have the allegedly sweatshirt, which arguably might be my favorite design we've ever done,

• 1:10Derrick Levasseur?

  because it's kind of subtle until you read it, and then you get to see Crime Weekly on it. But those items are going to be in the Crime Weekly store. Those are items that we're going to be carrying as long as you guys want them. So this is also the more high-quality material that many of you asked for. This is comfort colors.

• 1:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  We got a lot of requests for comfort colors.

• 1:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, and so all of the new merch is in that, is in that, that brand. So go check it out. You can go to crimeweeklypodcast.com. We are going to be carrying that merch that we were selling at CrimeCon, so if you weren't able to make it, you can still pick up that merch, and it's available now. Or it should be available within the next day or two if you don't see it up there, so be on the lookout for it. That's all I got.

• 1:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bolo.

• 1:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Bolo, yeah. There you go.

• 1:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bolo. Okay, so... By the spring of 2022, 19-year-old Rachel Hansen was building the life she had always wanted. She was running her own horse business, planning a future with her fiance, and she had recently earned her real estate license. But when the people subleasing her apartment stopped paying rent, Rachel found herself facing unexpected financial stress. Determined to handle the situation herself, she moved back into the apartment on June 1, 2022. And just as a note for anybody who is wondering, because we were talking about it in part one, and I just figured it out, there is a difference between when the old tenant has a contract with a new tenant for the apartment and when a landlord has a contract

• 2:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  with a new tenant to fulfill the old tenant's contract. And that is the landlord making a contract with a new tenant for the old tenant's lease is called subletting. And when the old tenant is making a contract with a new tenant, that is called subleasing.

• 2:53Derrick Levasseur?

  You learn something new every day.

• 2:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so both things can happen, but they are not interchangeably used terms, because I thought they were. And then, the more you know. So just three days later, during the early morning hours of June 4, Rachel called 911 and told dispatchers that someone had broken into her apartment and shot her. Despite the efforts of first responders and surgeons, Rachel died a few hours later. Her family was left devastated and struggling to understand who would want to hurt a young woman known for her kindness, her love of animals, and her determination to help others. As investigators began looking deeper into Rachel's life, they discovered several troubling leads. Rachel had reported threats to police just months before her murder. One of her prized horses

• 3:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  had been stolen only days earlier, and there had been several strange encounters at her apartment in the days leading up to the shooting. Investigators would need to determine whether any of those events were connected to Rachel's murder and whether they could lead them to the person responsible.

• 3:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Can we talk about that for a second? Because... That's the issue with this case. I think the crux of where people are. On one hand, you're going to talk about these different incidences that need to be addressed. But on the other hand, I think it's significant to reiterate that she had only been in that apartment for three days. And prior to that, someone else had been living there. And I know I really harped on this last episode, but to me, that is just as if not more important than these other incidences you're going to talk about. No, I scratched that. They're all equally important. Everything has to be treated as if it's a potential lead that could lead to the suspect. But for me,

• 4:31Derrick Levasseur?

  her only being there for three days, just, I can't let it go. I really can't let it go. And it it really does give so much credence to at least one theory, which would be mistaken identity. But these other things are interesting as well. And I can't wait to hear what anybody out there who hasn't heard about this case before thinks because there's going to be people who disagree with me and think, oh, you know what? I actually think that this is more in line with what could have happened. So.

• 5:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I was just gonna say, so the timeline, three days after she moves back in, could be seen multiple ways. It could be seen as, oh, it must have been mistaken identity. Or it could be seen as they were waiting for her to move back in so they knew where she was, so they could kill her.

• 5:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I wasn't even gonna go there. I thought you were gonna say like, because she was moving back in, you have to assume that there were a lot of trips back and forth to the car. So if you have someone who's living there or in the area, they're going to get multiple attempts to see her and go, oh, wow.

• 5:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Someone new moves in.

• 5:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Look at this new cute girl who's moving in.

• 5:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Or maybe she she left and she moved out of her apartment and then the person who was, you know, targeting her didn't know where she had gone to. And then she comes back and then this person's like, okay, she's back. I better strike now.

• 5:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. And that's the thing about this case. It can be perceived, the same piece of evidence can be perceived multiple ways.

• 5:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, on June 4th, 2022, the Gilbert Police Department officially began a homicide investigation. Rachel's third floor corner apartment was processed. For evidence, but there wasn't much for investigators to work with. As we talked about in part one, Rachel's bedroom door had been kicked in. The door had been closed because Rachel was fostering two puppies at the time and had them in the room with her. Investigators found a visible boot print on the door, but beyond that, there was very little physical evidence left behind. They were also able to recover the bullet that killed Rachel, although the caliber has never been publicly released. What do you make of that? Is that something guilt knowledge that they, because they have so little, they want to have something to catch someone up with?

• 6:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, well, I mean, think about it, not to be too logical about this case, because there's emotional, there's emotion attached to it. I mean, a young woman was killed, but she was shot. They've released that she was shot. For the public to know the caliber of the weapon, it ain't going to help solve the case. So you keep that internal, and if someone comes forward, whether it's a witness or someone alleging to have committed the crime, if they're able to provide the caliber weapon when there's a lot of different calibers out there, that would give some validity and credence to their story. So that is a little nugget that I would absolutely keep internal. I am 100% on board with the decision. It doesn't help the public in finding the killer.

• 7:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, it might.

• 7:19Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think so.

• 7:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  If you're saying we're looking for someone in this area who might have had.

• 7:23Derrick Levasseur?

  A nine caliber, a nine millimeter weapon, you know how many there are?

• 7:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I don't know, but I think, you know, it seems like such a small thing to withhold, but when you look at it, like I said, they didn't find a lot when they're processing the apartment, so they don't have a lot to use for guilt knowledge.

• 7:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Whether it was a nine millimeter, a 380, a 40 caliber, whatever it was, there are hundreds, if not thousands, in that immediate Arizona area. So for someone to say, yeah, we're looking for someone who would have possession of a nine millimeter weapon, the pool is going to be thousands of people, but to this specific case, if someone comes forward and provides that information when it's not publicly known, now it becomes something that we can actually sink your teeth into.

• 8:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I agree. So as investigators worked the scene, they tried to determine exactly how the shooter had entered the apartment. The front door was shut when first responders arrived, but investigators weren't sure whether it had been locked, whether the killer had a key, or whether the door had simply been left unlocked. So basically, they're saying this person came to the apartment door. Uh, it, it wasn't kicked open like the bedroom door.

• 8:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 8:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  So did this person have a key and a way to get into the apartment? Or did Rachel just go to sleep and leave the door to the apartment unlocked?

• 8:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 8:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, Kim told us that she does not believe the apartment door was locked that night. She explained that on June 2nd, just one day after Rachel moved back into the apartment, Rachel and Joe Matt had replaced the lock on the unit. They used an old lock from Joe Matt's father's house and installed it themselves. But the problem was that they didn't actually have a key for it. So the lock could only be secured from the inside. So here's my question. Why did Rachel feel the need to change the lock? Is it because she had been subleasing the apartment to other people? And because it wasn't the landlord subleasing the apartment, Rachel couldn't ask the landlord, "Hey, change the locks now that I'm coming back in because I don't want somebody out there having a key and the ability to access my apartment."

• 9:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, was Rachel already kind of suspicious of the people that she had been leasing the apartment to, to the point where it was like, "Hey, let's just throw in this old lock from Joe Matt's father's house so that we don't, we don't think that the, you know, the other tenants have the ability to get into this apartment?"

• 9:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, there's a couple of things that you can address when it comes to this lock. First off, I'm not so sure that if she took the time to put the lock in, she wouldn't have locked the door from the inside. Obviously, it's to prevent people who had previous access to the apartment from getting in. So if you have this new lock, even if you don't have a key to open it from the outside, you could definitely lock it from the inside before going to sleep. The second thing that I can take from this information is more than likely, it wasn't someone who had access to this lock previously, like someone connected to Joe Matt, because as Kim said, nobody had the key. So nobody showed up at this apartment with the door locked and used the key to open it.

• 10:21Derrick Levasseur?

  So the only way really in here was either A, the door wasn't locked, or B, Rachel let this person in. But we know that's not true because she was in bed sleeping and the door shows that. So it only leads you to one logical conclusion, which is that unfortunately, for whatever reason, Rachel didn't lock the door, more than likely forgot to.

• 10:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  But that's weird. Why go to such lengths to make sure you have security by changing the lock and then forget to lock the door?

• 10:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, listen, I think we all as human beings, and I'm sure you'll agree with me on this. I ask myself every day why I do some of the shit I do. You know, there's been times, I'll, I'll give you a perfect example, Crime Con. I bought that whole priest outfit, right? I had, I was showing you guys my card, my little binder that I had at the wedding, like I was so, I spent so much time getting it. And I went down to grab a sandwich in Caesar's Palace, you know, to grab some food, grabbed the sandwich and literally left the binder down there, lost it.

• 11:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh no.

• 11:18Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm someone who's so thorough with investigations and doing all this stuff and I found myself up in my room a day later looking for it, realizing exactly what happened. And I sat there and I'm like, you're such an idiot. You know, like it's so commonsensical, it was right there in front of you, right next to the bag of food, and yet you forgot it, so.

• 11:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who do you, who do you think has it? Crime Weekly fan or?

• 11:39Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I don't know, man.

• 11:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Big Brother fan?

• 11:40Derrick Levasseur?

  I did try to find it, I, I tried to find it through security, I had my name and information in there.

• 11:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's a little scary.

• 11:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Somebody, somebody kept it for sure, but I say that to say, you know, you're moving into an apartment, you're busy, your mind is elsewhere, you got the puppies you're trying to take care of, and you forget the most simple thing, and that's locking the door. It happens.

• 12:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I mean, yeah, usually that becomes part of your routine, right? But she hadn't been in that apartment for months and now she's back in, so she hadn't really created her routine there yet.

• 12:09Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll also put this out there. Jo Mette left relatively late, if I remember. And so is it possible that she was in bed and because Jo Mette was the last one to leave the apartment and did not have a key, he was unable to lock the door from the outside before, you know, going where he went.

• 12:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, so Jo Mette was supposed to spend the night with Rachel on June 3rd. But remember, his father called shortly before midnight and told him he needed to come home. And as Jo Mette was leaving, he reminded Rachel to lock the front door behind him. But he said he never heard the lock engage. He turned around and then reminded her a second time and Rachel told him she would lock it. But then he then left without confirming whether she actually did.

• 12:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Damn it.

• 12:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kim believes that Rachel may have already been half asleep when this happened. In her opinion, Rachel likely intended to lock the door but simply fell back asleep before doing so.

• 12:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's directly from her mom, so she would know her better than us.

• 13:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, whatever happened, investigators knew one thing for certain. Someone entered Rachel's apartment, did not have to really force entry, and then they kicked in her bedroom door, stepped into her room and shot her while she was still in bed and then fled the scene. So we're gonna take a quick break, we'll be right back.

• 13:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Can I ask a question that might annoy a lot of people?

• 13:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Those are usually the best kinds, so sure, go for it.

• 13:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so if you're spending money on supplements every month, which a lot of us are, how do you know your body is actually absorbing them?

• 13:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I don't think most people, including myself, even think about that part sometimes.

• 13:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I overthink everything, so we spend all this time looking at ingredients and labels and looking at reviews, but according to the absorption company, the real issue is absorption. Most standard supplements absorb at less than 16%, which means a huge amount never actually gets used by your body.

• 13:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, which kind of defeats the whole purpose.

• 13:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  But that's why the absorption company focuses specifically on making supplements with pharmaceutical-grade absorption technology so your body can actually utilize what you're taking. And one product that caught my attention is their WLP1, because everybody seems to be talking about GLP-1s these days, right?

• 14:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and not everyone wants to take injections.

• 14:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't.

• 14:12Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 14:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, I don't, right?

• 14:15Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm aware.

• 14:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm terrified. I'm terrified of needles.

• 14:18Derrick Levasseur?

  You're not alone.

• 14:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So WLP1 is a daily supplement designed to support weight management, metabolism, and appetite control using ingredients clinically proven to increase natural GLP-1 activity. It's a different approach for people looking for support without, you know, a lot of the trade-offs that come with prescription options. And I've also been looking more closely at magnesium lately.

• 14:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 14:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, I'm not the best sleeper. I'm a night owl, so magnesium-

• 14:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I take magnesium every day.

• 14:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's really good for you. It supports over 300 functions in the body, but most magnesium supplements absorb incredibly poorly.

• 14:51Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's kind of what you've been saying, right? We could be taking these medications without actually getting the full benefit.

• 14:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly, and so the absorption company's magnesium is designed for significantly better absorption, helping support sleep, recovery, stress regulation, and overall wellness.

• 15:06Derrick Levasseur?

  So start taking supplements your body can actually absorb. Go to absorbmore.com and enter CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout for 35% off your first order. That's absorbmore.com and enter code CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout for 35% off your first order.

• 15:26Derrick Levasseur?

  This is also interesting because I guess you can dissect this any way you want, right? The person who shows up doesn't know who's inside, or they do, right? And they try, they hand check the front door, it opens. So they open the door and then they can see that the bedroom door is shut. And I'm asking myself, and I'm also asking you Stephanie and everyone else listening and watching, why not just slowly turn the doorknob and open the door without making a sound? So you have that element of surprise? Why the decision to boot the door in and startle everybody? And truthfully, I don't have the answer. I have some opinions, but I'll ask you first.

• 16:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  I would say it's because they didn't know what was waiting for them on the other side of that bedroom door. And maybe the person or persons they thought were on the other side of that bedroom door would be a little bit more hyper vigilant than they appeared to be at that point. So maybe the person or persons behind that bedroom door, in the attacker's mind, they know that someone's coming for them. So why are they leaving their door unlocked? Are they expecting me? Is this a setup?

• 16:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 16:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then, so it's like, yes, kick the door in for the element of surprise. Don't just, you know, quietly walk in and someone in there is waiting with a gun aimed at you to shoot you.

• 16:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. So you run into, you rush into the apartment, adrenaline's pumping, you boot the door, you don't even check to see if it's unlocked, you just boot it and you shoot whoever's in the bed and you flee the area. What does that say to you about this person?

• 16:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, that they were there for a purpose.

• 16:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Are they a professional? Are they an amateur? What's?

• 17:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not a professional, I wouldn't say so, no.

• 17:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I agree. I agree. It sounds like someone who-

• 17:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's like somebody that had a mission to do and, you know, wanted to get in and get out, yeah.

• 17:09Derrick Levasseur?

  That's it. They were sent there to shoot this person, or they wanted to shoot this person and they wanted to be there as little time as possible. And they weren't really thinking clearly. They ran into the apartment, booted the door.

• 17:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  They wanted to reduce the danger to themselves, I think. Like, I don't want to be creeping around here with someone possibly lying in wait, expecting me to come. I want to really like, just do it and go.

• 17:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Do it and be out. One shot and you're gone. Yeah, I mean, I'm interested to hear, guys, pause this video if you're watching on YouTube or even on audio, leave a comment, leave a review, let us know what you think. Because this right here, we're starting to develop a profile on this person. And it's not a lot to go off of, I concede that point, but it's all we got. And so I think it's important to talk about and dissect it, even though it's such a minor thing, because we're trying to figure out the mentality and the mindset of this person at the time the crime was committed.

• 17:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, investigators also looked through the apartment to determine whether robbery could have been a motive, obviously, but nothing appeared to be missing. Rachel hadn't brought many belongings with her yet, she had a mattress, a box spring, a small number of personal items, but there was no obvious sign that anyone had searched through the apartment, or rifled through anything, or taken anything. So police then began speaking with neighbors in hopes that someone had seen or heard something unusual, but that effort didn't produce many answers either. None of Rachel's neighbors reported seeing a suspicious person, and none of them reported even hearing a gunshot. In fact, several neighbors didn't even realize anything had happened at all, until police officers arrived at the complex. Investigators also requested surveillance footage from the apartment complex, hoping

• 18:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  it might provide some clue about who entered or left the property that night, but they quickly ran into another problem. According to the apartment complex, there were no security cameras anywhere on the property. And that was incredibly frustrating for both investigators and Rachel's family. And it's surprising to me, because this wasn't like 1990 or 2001, it's 2022.

• 19:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 19:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  What, what are you talking about? You don't have any cameras anywhere on the property?

• 19:11Derrick Levasseur?

  What did I say in the Jennifer Kessie case, which was obviously a little older? I truly believe, at this point, if you're, if you have the money to build these buildings, it should be a legal requirement to have a surveillance system up and running.

• 19:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even just for like car thefts and stuff, you know?

• 19:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, insurance companies should require it.

• 19:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 19:31Derrick Levasseur?

  It's in 2022, and especially now, we should not live in a world where you, you are in a large establishment, a complex, a building, and there's zero security footage being Recorded. That's insane.

• 19:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, surveillance cameras are cheap now. They're easy to connect to your phone.

• 19:48Derrick Levasseur?

  For real.

• 19:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Anybody can do it. Really, if I can do it, anybody can do it.

• 19:53Derrick Levasseur?

  It's cutting corners by the builders and, and, and the people who are managing the building and, and it's, it's unacceptable.

• 19:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I think it's just laziness because like I said, it's not even an expensive endeavor at this point. And obviously you can understand this was incredibly frustrating for both the investigators and Rachel's family because

• 20:10Derrick Levasseur?

  As it would be.

• 20:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  This wasn't an isolated remote property or like an older apartment complex that hadn't been updated. Rachel lived in a relatively newer apartment community in a pretty nice area of Gilbert and the lack of working cameras meant investigators lost what could have been one of the most, I mean, the best. Yeah, the best opportunities to identify a suspect.

• 20:30Derrick Levasseur?

  And by the way, it serves as a deterrent as well.

• 20:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 20:33Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, which building you're gonna hit? The one that has running cameras or the one that doesn't?

• 20:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which, which apartment complex are you going to when you wanna, you know, just start busting windows of cars and grabbing anything you can?

• 20:43Derrick Levasseur?

  That's it.

• 20:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  The nice one in, in the nice area that's a newer apartment complex where we know there's no cameras. Yeah.

• 20:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, no apparent security system. Yeah, it sounds like, sounds like the winner to me.

• 20:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm surprised they didn't have issues, bigger issues before this, honestly, but.

• 20:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Sounds like a lawsuit, but I mean, who, who am I?

• 20:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  The lack of surveillance footage wasn't the only thing that frustrated Rachel's parents. They were also disappointed that police never held a press conference asking the public for information following Rachel's murder. At that point, as we've talked about, investigators did have very little to work with. There were no known witnesses, no surveillance footage, no murder weapon, no DNA evidence, and really no clear motive. So Rachel's mom, Kim, believes getting the community involved immediately could have made a difference. She felt that someone out there might have seen something important without realizing it. Maybe not at the apartment complex, but you know, on the road or in a different business or a different location or somebody even just driving erratically away from that area, something that could have given the police some lead.

• 21:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  When she later raised these concerns with police, the chief pointed out that the department had posted on Facebook asking for information, but from Kim's perspective, that wasn't anywhere close to the The same as standing in front of the community and publicly asking for help solving Rachel's murder. As the investigation into Rachel's murder continued, detectives searched for a motive. The problem was that Rachel wasn't someone who had enemies. Everyone investigators spoke to described her as kind, hardworking, well-liked. She wasn't involved in criminal activity. She wasn't living a high-risk lifestyle. And there wasn't an obvious person investigators could immediately point to as a suspect. But there were a few things in Rachel's life that stood out and warranted a closer look.

• 22:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  But for a long time, the only one that was publicly discussed involved Rachel's prize horse, Dash, who was pregnant at the time of Rachel's murder. So the weekend before Rachel moved back into her apartment, Dash disappeared from the ranch where Rachel had been living and working. As information about Rachel's case spread online, many people began speculating that Dash had been stolen and that whoever took the horse was demanding money for Dash's return, like a ransom. Some people even theorized that Dash's disappearance could be connected to Rachel's murder. There were allegations online that Rachel had been receiving threats related to the horse and was being harassed in the days before she was killed. Now, police have never publicly confirmed those rumors. In fact, when asked about potential motives,

• 23:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  investigators were careful not to discuss any specific theory. They stated, quote, "Identifying a potential motive in this shooting is part of our ongoing investigation. Any leads or tips submitted by the public are actively being worked on," end quote. I love how the police, whenever they don't want to tell you something, they're like, "That's part of this active investigation."

• 23:27Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the catch-all. That is the catch-all.

• 23:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's like, "What color are your shoes, officer? That's part of our active and ongoing investigation, and I can't tell you, and don't look down because I don't want you to know."

• 23:37Derrick Levasseur?

  The whole Dash thing, when I covered this case, I looked into this. And I know that we had a chance to speak with Kim as well, but it's... There's more to this story.

• 23:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, because when we spoke with Kim, she told us that Dash wasn't really stolen, at least not in the way people were claiming online.

• 23:53Derrick Levasseur?

  So what you're telling me, Stephanie, is what people are reporting on... online?

• 23:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Things got taken out of context online, yeah.

• 24:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Are not true?

• 24:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Sometimes.

• 24:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow. Mind blown.

• 24:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  I want to preface this, or not preface this because we already said stuff, but I want to to add to this and say, listen, some great theories have appeared online and some great information that is accurate and is helpful has appeared online.

• 24:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's hard to disseminate between it now at this point.

• 24:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  You have to kind of take it and then proceed with that little branch and see where it brings you before you just believe it, though, because.

• 24:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Good way to approach it.

• 24:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  You can't discount everything and you can't just like, accept everything. You've got to really like, parse through it.

• 24:34Derrick Levasseur?

  The problem that happens is someone, they present themselves as someone who is in the know, and then that information becomes fact.

• 24:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but even if they were, even if they're like, I worked at the ranch where Rachel worked and where Dash was stolen. Even if you did, that doesn't mean you know all the complexities and all the details of the situation.

• 24:50Derrick Levasseur?

  But when that gets substantiated as fact and then everyone's working off that as their foundation, now you're building a house on a foundation and we're all destined for failure.

• 24:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  So apparently, the situation centered around the owners of the ranch where Rachel had been living, working, and boarding Dash. By May of 2022, as we know, Rachel's relationship with the ranch owners had deteriorated significantly. We know Rachel wasn't happy, she was trying to think of what else she could do. And Rachel's mom, Kim, explained that the conflict stemmed from a deal involving an expensive quarter horse. Now, Kim doesn't even know all the details, only that the transaction didn't play out the way everyone expected it to. And as a result, the ranch owners believed Rachel owed them money. Eventually, the situation reached a breaking point. Rachel quit her job at the ranch and made plans to move back into her apartment in Gilbert, which, as we discussed in part one, had been subleased

• 25:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  to tenants who weren't paying rent. So it was kind of two things happening at once that made sense. The tenants aren't paying the rent, so you got to do something. You either got to pay it for them, or move back in and pay it yourself. And the place where you're living and working, things are not panning out there. And so you don't really have that place to live anymore. So it's kind of like a perfect storm of events, bringing Rachel back to her apartment in Gilbert.

• 26:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and here's what I'll tell you about cases or crimes where you have two parties and one party believes the other one owes them money. It's not all the time, but most of the time, 99% of the time, they're not going to kill the person who owes them money. And why would that be, Stephanie?

• 26:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, because they want the money.

• 26:25Derrick Levasseur?

  They're never gonna get the money, right? They'll take other measures. They'll send threats. They'll go after people they care about, but they don't normally go after the source of the money because then the whole reason behind it becomes a dead issue. You can no longer get what you're actually after. So let's just remove the fact that this was a 19-year-old girl. This was a horse. This didn't rise to the level of a coordinated hit. But even if it did, you're not gonna go after Rachel directly. Maybe you're gonna send a message, but you're not gonna kill her because then you're never gonna get a cent.

• 26:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Unless, I don't know. I know there are times where people are killed with money disputes or in money disputes because maybe those people are like, well, we're never gonna get the money, so we want your life. But it seemed like this money dispute-

• 27:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It's usually much more extreme than this.

• 27:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it goes on longer. This money dispute seemed to be fairly new.

• 27:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And there's even more to it, I believe, with Dash, but I don't want to get ahead of it.

• 27:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So yeah, on May 29th, ranch owners informed Rachel that she needed to remove all her belongings from the property, and that included her horse Dash, right?

• 27:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Allegedly she owed money to, but they're gonna let her take the horse? They're this concerned about it? Why not hold the horse's ransom?

• 27:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 27:35Derrick Levasseur?

  You see what I'm saying here?

• 27:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the ranch owners are saying, on May 29th, which is not a lot of time, I will be honest here. They're like, on May 29th, they're like, you gotta get all your belongings off the property, including this horse, which is a big thing. By May 31st, she had to do that. So you've got like, a couple of days. They're being jerks, yeah.

• 27:52Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. Doesn't make them killers.

• 27:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, but then they said, you know, if you do that, if you get all your belongings, which isn't a big deal, but this horse off the property within like, two to three days, we won't charge you rent for the month of June. Obviously, Rachel is like, well, I don't have a lot of time, but I don't want to be charged rent for the month of June. So she immediately got to work preparing for the move. But remember, Rachel's mother, Kim, was out of town at that time. So she would normally step in and help, but she couldn't. Todd and Rachel's brothers stepped in to help. So they loaded Rachel's belongings and transported them back to the Hanson family home. We've got the belongings out of the way, but since Rachel couldn't move back into her apartment until June 1st- The plan was to store everything there temporarily.

• 28:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then after dropping off Rachel's belongings, Todd and Rachel hooked up the horse trailer and headed back to the ranch to pick up a dash. But while they were on their way, Todd received a text message. According to Kim, the message stated the dash had been removed from the property and it included the phone number for the ranch owner's attorney. So that was it. When they arrived at the ranch, Dash was gone. Rachel and Todd didn't know where the horse had been taken to, but they did know who had removed the horse and why. And the following day, Todd contacted the attorney to find out what was going on. According to Kim, the attorney essentially told them that Dash would be returned once Rachel paid a certain amount of money.

• 29:13Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go.

• 29:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Dash was being held for ransom, basically.

• 29:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, exactly. And that's the point, right? So initially-

• 29:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't like these ranch owners. This is messed up.

• 29:21Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, it's all thing, and that's why it's it's tough because I know some of these facts and we don't usually get there. So I'm trying to present it in the form of where you are in the story. But here's the thing, initially, and there's probably more to this story, but there was an initial agreement. They weren't even concerned about the rent as long as they got it off. And then they made the decision that, hey, we're probably not going to get the money. So we are going to keep the horse, right?

• 29:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but they told her, get the horse off and you know, then, but they, that's kind of misleading and I don't like that. It's like-

• 29:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, no, I'm not saying I agree with the approach.

• 29:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, the horse would be one of the last things to move. So while she's moving her other belongings, they pulled a, a quick little, you know, sleight of hand here. I don't like it.

• 30:00Derrick Levasseur?

  And it might've even been intentional where they made it seem like, oh yeah, you guys can take the horse. And then as soon as Rachel leaves, they, they, they hide the horse. But I say all this to say, these people, ranch owners, probably have a little bit of money. They have the horse. They're going through attorneys, right? We may not like the approach. We may not like them as people or how they handled this. But it doesn't sound like people who handle things behind closed doors, where they're calling their friends, you know, in, in shady places to go handle this and send a message. It's just not the vibe that I get, especially when they're in possession of the horse.

• 30:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, they're legitimate business owners and stuff. They probably have enough money. They're just being, they're just being-

• 30:43Derrick Levasseur?

  They're being petty. There's no doubt about it.

• 30:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not murderers, but I don't like them. That's all I'm saying.

• 30:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Fair. You know, but they have the horse. They could sell it behind closed doors, get their money and then some.

• 30:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I'd be pissed. They're gonna sell my horse. You can't sell someone's horse without papers. You can't do that. They can't do that.

• 30:58Derrick Levasseur?

  You also can't kill people.

• 30:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  You can't keep someone's horse hostage and wait for payment either, to be honest. I don't know the legality of this.

• 31:04Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a civil issue. I'm not super familiar with the leasing and all that stuff for the horse, but for the sake of this conversation. And if you guys disagree with us, by all means, push back. It doesn't sound like the type of people who are gonna get the, say, you gotta talk to our attorney. But then they're gonna go hire a contract killer to take this girl out.

• 31:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  But still, I don't, the legality of just taking someone's horse and holding them for some money they allegedly own you, I don't even know if that's possible. I would have called the police immediately.

• 31:30Derrick Levasseur?

  There's probably a civil complaint there.

• 31:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and been like, go get my horse. Go get Dash.

• 31:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Civil dispute at minimum, maybe a criminal dispute for sure. But when we're thinking about the motive of these people, right? They're trying to pull money out of Rachel for this horse, right? They're holding the horse, as we basically said, they're holding the horse ransom. It wouldn't be in their best interest for them to kill the person that they're trying to solicit money from.

• 31:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  That they're trying to extort money out of at this point, let's be honest.

• 31:57Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a better way to describe it. That's correct. But it's kind of contradicting to what their objective would be in this particular situation.

• 32:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and like I said, this is happening days before she dies. So if you're gonna have her killed for money, you're probably gonna wait a little bit longer, because what the fact of the matter is, obviously Rachel's devastated when she finds out what's going on with Dash. She spent the final days of her life desperately trying to get Dash back. And that included posting repeatedly on Facebook, attempting to contact the people involved. She even started selling personal belongings, including saddles, which are quite expensive, to raise money. So she's trying to get the money to pay these people. Why would they have her killed when they know she's actively trying to raise money to get Dash back? They're gonna be like, you're not getting our money fast enough. No, that doesn't make sense.

• 32:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, more than likely they wouldn't. Not 100%, but it doesn't seem likely that these are the people we're looking for.

• 32:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I'm sure the police explored this avenue of investigation because it was one of the few they had.

• 32:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Doesn't even seem like Kim really believes that. I mean, she's talking about it. She's not downplaying it, but she's giving us more details about it.

• 33:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she's like Dash wasn't stolen. It was just some weird business dispute.

• 33:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, right.

• 33:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, at the same time, as all of this is happening, I feel so bad for Rachel because she's trying to move back into her apartment and figure out the next steps of her life after leaving the ranch, which she thought was gonna, you know, be a pretty long-term thing. There was a lot of stuff happening in Rachel's life during those final days, and the situation involving Dash was obviously consuming much of her attention. We know how Rachel felt about horses and animals, and specifically ones she had formed a bond with. This was gonna be tough for her emotionally. Now sadly, we know Rachel was killed before she could get Dash back. After her murder, the Hanson's made the decision to pay the money and have Dash returned. So Rachel's family paid these dickhead ranch owners their money for Dash.

• 33:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  And at that time, they didn't know whether the situation involving Dash had anything to do with Rachel's murder. And they felt like Dash was one of the few pieces of Rachel they still had left. So after she dies, Rachel's family, they do get Dash back, which hmm, I don't know. Like, some people could say that was the motive, like they kill Rachel and then her family pays to have her horse. Uh, I don't know. I don't know.

• 34:13Derrick Levasseur?

  I think.

• 34:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  How would they know that they would have done that? Yeah.

• 34:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, and at that point, if that's the whole reason to try to, Rachel's already dead. You know, so it's, it's ruthless, but the fact that the horse was turned over after the exchange of money was made. Again, I just, I could be wrong. I've been wrong before, but it doesn't sound like these are the people tied to Rachel's death. I feel like unfortunately for them, they were going through a civil dispute with her at the time of it, which is gonna raise some eyebrows. And I think it's important to consider all options, but once they no longer seem viable, you gotta move on to the next one.

• 34:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, here's the thing, so. Rachel's family doesn't know at the time, does Dash have anything to do with what happened to Rachel? They don't know for sure.

• 34:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Fair enough.

• 34:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  But it is something connecting them to Rachel, so they buy Dash back, but they didn't want to bring Dash directly home to them. Like, they didn't want to bring Dash to the Hanson family home and farm. And so, they had a friend step in to help. So that friend met with the attorney of the ranch owners, completed the transaction, paid the money, met with the transport company, and then took Dash to a property located far away from Gilbert. And while Dash was staying there, the Hanson's took additional precautions at their home. They installed cameras. See apartment complex? How easy it is?

• 35:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, not hard.

• 35:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  They added locks, they did everything they could to make sure that their property was secure before eventually bringing Dash back. Now, at the same time, investigators continued looking into the situation involving the horse. Because like I said, it's one of the few leads they have to go on at this point.

• 35:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Gotta go, gotta run it.

• 35:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Eventually, the police determined that while what happened between Rachel and the ranch owners may have been illegal, because that's messed up, yeah, and the timing was certainly unfortunate, the individuals involved were not connected to Rachel's murder. So, that's what the police determined. I'm still like, it's kind of, it's kind of like a gangster sort of thing, though, to be like, we're gonna take your horse for ransom.

• 36:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is Yellowstone.

• 36:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, it's not allowed, you know, yeah, very Dutton Ranch kind of thing.

• 36:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is in Yellowstone. I think, I think it's unfortunate of the timing, but again, even if you, I don't know anything about these people, but it wouldn't make sense to kill the person that you're trying to get the money out of.

• 36:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but it doesn't make sense to steal this, this young girl's horse to make her pay, like, this is kind of...

• 36:28Derrick Levasseur?

  It doesn't make sense, but that, that, we know that type of stuff happens all the time. And usually, you take measures to try and get the money that you feel like you're owed. And one way to quickly ensure that doesn't happen is by killing the person.

• 36:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Horse snacking.

• 36:43Derrick Levasseur?

  That you're trying to get the money from.

• 36:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 36:45Derrick Levasseur?

  It's like, I understand why people are, are interested in this and talk about it online, I do not believe that's what occurred here. I think I've made that clear over the last two episodes anyways.

• 36:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, we're gonna take a quick break, we'll be right back.

• 37:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay Derek, quick question.

• 37:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Shoot.

• 37:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Have you ever noticed that cat people don't just like their cats?

• 37:07Derrick Levasseur?

  No, cat people are absolutely committed and I'm saying that in the kindest way possible.

• 37:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, yes. They know their cat's favorite sleeping spot, their favorite toy, their preferred window, their entire personality profile.

• 37:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and somehow every cat has a personality profile at this point.

• 37:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Tons of personality there, which is why our sponsor Smalls makes a lot of sense because Smalls makes fresh, human-grade food for cats using high-quality ingredients you can actually recognize. It's formulated specifically to help cats thrive.

• 37:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's important because cats aren't supposed to eat the same things that we feed most of our pets.

• 37:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly, right? Because cats are obligate carnivores, which means they need real meat to stay healthy. Unfortunately, a lot of traditional cat foods rely on meat byproducts, fillers, cheap grains, and artificial ingredients.

• 37:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so basically the cat food version of junk food is what you're saying.

• 37:56Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 38:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Which is exactly what you would want when your cat is basically a member of the family.

• 38:18Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 38:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so now Dash is away from the ranch owners. The police have investigated. They say ranch owners have nothing to do with Rachel's murder, and with that information, Rachel's family felt comfortable bringing Dash home, and Dash later gave birth to her foal. Kim raised the foal for about a year before sending her to a ranch for Professional training, but six months later, Kim realized that Dash wasn't doing well without Rachel. As Kim saw it, Dash seemed lonely and needed a purpose. So she sent Dash to the same ranch where the baby was being trained, so they could be together. And so with the Dash lead ruled out, investigators continued searching for a motive. But for two years, very little information was released publicly about what they were working on behind the scenes.

• 39:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  And during that time, Rachel's family and fiance continued speaking with the media and doing everything they could to keep attention on Rachel's case. Joe Matt remained especially close to the Hanson family after Rachel's death. In fact, he moved in with them for about three months because it helped him feel close to Rachel. Even after moving out, he continued visiting the Hanson's for dinner almost every night. And Kim told us that Joe Matt still has a wonderful relationship with their family. They consider him part of their family.

• 39:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and I want to talk about Joe Matt, but I also just want to go back to the horse, the ranch owners, one more time. I know that I'm saying because they, you know, were trying to get money out of Rachel, they couldn't be involved. I would like to think, even though I haven't seen the entire investigation, although more documents have been released at this point. I would like to think that that conclusion by law enforcement was based on many factors, not just the fact that they wouldn't kill the money that they're trying to get. It would be about alibis, it'd be about their location, where they are, their history, who they frequent, their associates. All of that would be, would be considered as well before saying they weren't responsible for this.

• 40:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, as far as Joe Matt, when we're talking about potential persons of interest and suspects, Joe Matt is another person who has been dragged through the mud by a lot of people online and believe that maybe he could be responsible for this. And for what it's worth, and this is something that's been known all along, as you just mentioned, Joe Matt has remained very close with the family. And according to law enforcement and everybody close to this case, there's no way that Joe Matt did this.

• 41:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think he did either. I mean, obviously, his father, the alibi of his father saying, you gotta come home, that should really. Kind of solidify.

• 41:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Did he own a gun? Would he have access to things like that?

• 41:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  What's his motive? What's his motive?

• 41:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he just, he just, they just got engaged.

• 41:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  So as they navigated their grief, Kim and Todd also continued fostering children. About six months after Rachel's murder, they welcomed another foster child into their home, a teenage girl who needed a safe place to stay. Kim told us that continuing to foster wasn't an easy decision because remember we talked about in part one, how they had already made the decision to stop when Rachel came into their lives and the only reason they took Rachel in was because she was related to another child they had in their care.

• 41:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 41:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  But now after Rachel's death, the Hanson's are like, okay, let's revisit this. And Kim said, quote, "My initial reaction was I'm not ready for that. I can't do that. I'm in the depths of grief right now, but we did because that's what we felt called to do and she's been a blessing. I 100% believe that Rachel had something to do with that. Just like God, send her to my home. They'll take care of her." End quote. So nearly one year after Rachel's murder, the Hanson's found another way to honor her memory. They started Rachel's Rescue. Kim told us that during the COVID pandemic, Rachel and Kim had spent two years fostering female dogs and their litters of puppies. Kim told us it brought an incredible amount of joy into their home during a difficult period of time. Rachel loved the work and dreamed of someday starting a rescue organization of her own.

• 42:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, at the time, Kim wasn't interested in running a rescue. She loved caring for the dogs, but she didn't want the responsibility that came with managing a nonprofit organization. But after Rachel's death, she decided it was finally time to make her daughter's dream a reality. Rachel's Rescue officially received a nonprofit status on June 1st, 2023, almost exactly one year after Rachel was murdered. Today, the organization is still operating and has become a full-time job for Kim. She told us that while the work is demanding, she's grateful for it because it gives her something meaningful to focus on and helps fill both her time and her heart as she continues navigating life without Rachel. And I totally see that, actually. I mean, You think about like how much work the Hanson's already had with, you know, they have a lot of

• 43:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  children at their home. They got a lot of animals there, but then and you're like, why would you want to add on to it? Well, you lost your daughter. The case is unsolved. She was brutally murdered. No one knows why. No one knows who. And that is going to fill up your head nonstop if you have any downtime. It's going to be haunting you during the day. It's going to be haunting you at night while you try to sleep. So the more busy you can stay and the more exhausted you can make yourself, the better I think your mental health will be.

• 43:48Derrick Levasseur?

  We see that a lot.

• 43:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And, and I think that's why a lot of parents who lose their children in this way, or who have missing children, they throw themselves into not only raising awareness for their child's case, but for the cases of other children and other people, because it's, it's a purpose, but also it's a, this is something to fill my time and my brain with, or I'll go crazy.

• 44:12Derrick Levasseur?

  I can't imagine. We, we talk about it all the time. I can't imagine being in this position. And I have so much respect for the families that are able to continue on with life, although it's much different, but I personally feel like I'd curl up in a ball and just die.

• 44:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, I do too.

• 44:26Derrick Levasseur?

  It did the courage and the strength that it takes to put one foot in front of the other. It's a strength that I, I, I've never experienced.

• 44:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, we probably would figure out a way to do something similar, I hope. But it without being in that situation, imagining that situation feels unimaginable.

• 44:46Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I mean, when Mason, my dog, passed away, I, I was curled up in my office. We were for three weeks crying my eyes out. I just can't imagine. I don't even want to think about it. But yeah, I've, whenever we meet these families, it just, I'm in absolute awe of their, like even

• 45:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Their fortitude, their grit, yeah.

• 45:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Just what they're able to do in spite of what they've experienced.

• 45:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 45:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's incredible.

• 45:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, Rachel's rescue has also become an important way to keep Rachel's story alive. Kim explained that people frequently ask whether she is Rachel when they hear the name Rachel's Rescue, and that naturally opens the door for conversations about Rachel, her life, and her Unsolved murder. Now, while the Hanson's ran Rachel's rescue, the investigation into Rachel's murder continued. Every few months, Kim and Todd would meet with investigators to get an update on the case and see if there had been any progress, and the response was usually the same. Detectives would tell them they were still actively working the case, following leads, and pursuing different avenues of investigation. Kim said investigators told them they would go down one rabbit hole only for another lead to surface, but beyond that, there wasn't much information they could share.

• 45:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, at the same time, Rachel's family found themselves shut out from much of the investigation. They were not allowed to review the police reports or the medical examiner's report. They couldn't listen to Rachel's 911 call, and they weren't permitted to see the body camera footage either. And whenever they asked whether they could review these materials, or why they couldn't review these materials, they were told it was because the case is still open. And I saw recently in, because like I said, this case is going on still, and there's articles coming out about it, but they said, you know, a lot of the case material had been released, and the transcript of Rachel's 911 call had been released, but the audio, it appears, still hasn't been.

• 46:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the family, still to this day, has not heard that 911 call, from what I've read online.

• 46:40Derrick Levasseur?

  And I don't know, maybe that's gonna change. I don't know why they wouldn't let them listen to it.

• 46:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. That's what I was gonna ask you. Why? What's going on here?

• 46:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Even if it's not a recording of it, like where they just play it for them in their presence.

• 46:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 46:53Derrick Levasseur?

  So if they really want to hear that, although, and I don't know the answer to this, but part of it, could it be that officers are saying, "This is a horrific phone call. It's not like you think."

• 47:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think that's their decision, to me.

• 47:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, technically, it is. I'm not saying it's a right for them to make that, but they have the right to not release that.

• 47:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  They have the right to release it if they have a legitimate purpose, as far as the investigation goes. They don't have the right to make the decision for Rachel's parents. "We don't think you can handle this."

• 47:22Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I'm, that's, there's two different things there. You're conflating two things. What I'm saying is they could put it under the umbrella of it's for the investigation, and nobody would be able to dispute it, because it's an omission of the crime that occurred. So they're gonna be covered legally to not release that information. But I'm asking you, even though that's the excuse they're using, could it be internally that they're saying, this is this girl dying, she's in extreme pain, we don't want her parents to remember her that way. I'm not saying they have that right, but could it be the reason?

• 47:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  It could be, but they've already, now they've released a transcript along with all the case files.

• 48:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, transcripts is a lot less than...

• 48:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  But legally, now you've released a transcript. So what's your legal reason for not allowing Rachel's family to hear the 911 call?

• 48:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I think it's a slippery slope. It could be that there might be something in the background that they think could be used. Again, if you're asking me personally, let them listen to it. I've already, I just said that when we talked about it, maybe not give them the recording so it can be disseminated to other parties, but allow them to come in and listen to it if they want to. And I'm in agreement with you that they should just release it at this point. But I understand why they're not publicly, but I still think that Rachel's family should be able to hear if they want to hear it. Those are essentially the last words that she ever spoke. If they want to hear it, they should be able to hear it.

• 48:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Rachel's family has said that they wished the audio of the 911 call was released along with the police file, and they released the body cam footage as well. They said, quote, "We wanted to hear our daughter's voice and her last words that she spoke."

• 48:58Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go.

• 48:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we were disappointed it was a transcript only, end quote.

• 49:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's stupid. It's stupid. Personally, I'm trying to get into the minds of the officers involved.

• 49:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do you think there could be something in there? Or something that they are saying can't be put out there because it's like an evidence or something that they once again want to keep for guilt knowledge? Like, is that why they've only released a transcript? That's what I'm wondering.

• 49:22Derrick Levasseur?

  We have the transcript, right? So we know that she didn't say something that was going to be critical to the identification of the suspect, or it would be in the transcript. I try to put myself in the mindset of these officers and what could have been heard in the background that may be critical to the case, guilt knowledge, if you will. But I can't think of anything.

• 49:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, that's what I'm trying to figure, because it seems, it seems just like.

• 49:44Derrick Levasseur?

  I can't think of anything. I could be missing it.

• 49:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  It seems weird. Could they have released the transcript but not released the whole transcript? Or would they have had to have?

• 49:50Derrick Levasseur?

  It's possible.

• 49:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Would they have had to have said that they hadn't released the whole transcript?

• 49:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't want this to come off as defending officers, but it does seem like a weird hill to die on.

• 49:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  It does, that's what I'm saying.

• 49:59Derrick Levasseur?

  So there's gotta be.

• 50:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  There has to be something, right?

• 50:02Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree.

• 50:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 50:03Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know what it is, but they have to know how bad this looks optically. You have the mother of the victim out there saying, "We just want to hear our daughter's last words." And, you know, you have fathers and mothers and sisters and brothers in that police department. You think they would say, "Yeah, let's let them listen to it." And for some reason, they're not, and I can't tell you why.

• 50:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't tell you why either, besides it's just incredibly petty, or there's something there that can't be heard by the general public.

• 50:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 50:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's kind of, I wanted to see if you were on the same page with me there, and it seems like you are.

• 50:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I still don't see the issue. We know the parents didn't kill her, right? So you could bring them in and just say, "It's you and Todd, Kim. Kim, you too, that's all that's coming in. Nobody else. We can't give you the recording, but we'll allow you to listen to it as many times as you want in a controlled environment."

• 50:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it might upset you, and it might break your heart.

• 50:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's your choice.

• 50:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is what you want? This is what you've expressed? You want it over and over again? Okay, here, you're adults.

• 50:59Derrick Levasseur?

  We're gonna make you sign some documents. We want, we want it to remain confidential. You know, I'm sure they'd be willing to do that.

• 51:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what was in there that they don't want to be heard?

• 51:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Very, very good question.

• 51:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  So by the end of 2024, more than a year and a half had passed since Rachel was murdered. And around that time, Kim spoke with the media and shared a difficult update following another meeting with investigators. According to Kim, detectives told the family they had essentially exhausted all of the leads they had available to them. As Kim understood it, the case was going to become inactive unless someone came forward with new information. Investigators had followed every lead they had, but each one ultimately ended in a dead end. In addition to sharing that update, Kim and Todd admitted that they were struggling to remain optimistic. As painful as it was, they were beginning to prepare themselves for the possibility that Rachel's murder might never be solved. Kim told reporters, quote, "We just have to resolve ourselves to the fact we likely

• 51:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  may never know who took Rachel's life," end quote. A few months later, in August of 2024, Gilbert Police released transcripts from Rachel's 911 call, along with body camera footage from the officers who responded to the scene. The Hanson supported the decision to make those materials public because they hoped it would generate renewed interest in Rachel's case. But once again, at the same time, they were frustrated by how heavily redacted their records were. And we talked about this, but one of the biggest disappointments for the family was that the actual audio from the 911 call was not released. And, you know, we've talked about how Kim said she just wanted to hear her daughter's voice, that's what they wanted. Then in October of 2024, investigators released a 350-page report detailing portions of their investigation.

• 52:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  But like the materials released before, much of the report had been heavily redacted. Even so, it provided the public with some new information and revealed several leads detectives had spent time investigating. One of those leads involved Joe Matt's father, who had threatened Rachel prior to her murder. We have a lot to talk about, but let's take a quick break, we'll be right back. This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack and hydration sponsor. IQ Bar Protein Bars, IQ Mix Hydration Mixes, and IQ Joe Mushroom Coffees are the delicious, low-sugar, brain-and-body fuel you need to win your day.

• 53:15Derrick Levasseur?

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• 53:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that is true, but unfortunately, the most convenient food choices are not the best. They're either loaded with sugar, or they leave you hungry again 30 minutes later.

• 53:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, which is exactly why I've been keeping IQ Bar stuff around all day, whether it's traveling, recording, or just around the day when I'm working out, or whatever it is, it's easy to grab and go. I actually have the ultimate sampler pack right here. It's half-empty because I just ate the lemon blueberry, but you can see it if you're watching on YouTube. We get the ultimate sampler box tube. We're not just talking about it.

• 53:55Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 54:35Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the number one thing. If it don't taste good, it don't matter how good it is for you. You're not gonna eat it.

• 54:38Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 54:44Derrick Levasseur?

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• 55:18Derrick Levasseur?

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• 55:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, we're back. I know we're gonna talk about Jomet's father, but before we do, I am gonna give law enforcement a little shit here because you and I have talked about this extensively, Stephanie, not only probably on a Crime Weekly episode, but personally. And I do feel like there are people out there, in my case, it's usually lawyers, where they say no or decide to refrain from releasing certain information just because they have the power to do so. It's basically just to establish a level of dominance, like, hey, this is what my power is, this is what I'm capable of doing. And... I'd like to think that that's not what's happening here, but I do feel like you you can't solve it. And yet you're still choosing to redact things and not release everything,

• 56:26Derrick Levasseur?

  release body cam, but not the recording. And unless there's something that we don't know about, which I'm starting to think, or I do believe that that there isn't because they haven't solved it, right? So there's nothing too critical in there. And yet they're still choosing not to give that information. I do feel like it could be a little bit of pettiness, or at least saying, letting everyone know, like, we're still in charge of this investigation. We will be the arbiters of who of what information you receive. And if that's even remotely true, I don't like it.

• 56:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it's to me, it's like, okay, you keep telling the family, we got nothing. We've exhausted every lead. And then you release some stuff, but it's heavily redacted. For what? Like, at that point, it's like, why are you being petty? Or who are you protecting?

• 57:12Derrick Levasseur?

  And it could be just a simple explanation. But by you redacting it, you're creating that question. Who are you protecting? You're creating your own headaches.

• 57:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why are you redacting so much?

• 57:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. If it's personal information about specific people who aren't connected to the case, sure.

• 57:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  It doesn't look like it in this case.

• 57:28Derrick Levasseur?

  But if it's heavily redacted, why? Why? You're just creating more theories.

• 57:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 57:33Derrick Levasseur?

  More more conspiracy theories as well, as far as what's going on here.

• 57:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, that's like, well, you don't want to give the audio from the 911 call. You don't want to let them listen to it. We're heavily redacting any files we release. Like,

• 57:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 57:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Are you protecting someone in the police department at this point? That's where people's brains are gonna go.

• 57:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh, no doubt. No doubt. And you have nobody to blame but yourself.

• 57:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So let's talk about Joe Mutt's father. Kim told us that on April 22, 2022, there'd been a confrontation between Rachel and Joe Mutt's father. And during that encounter, he allegedly told Rachel, quote, "If I ever see you again, I will kill you," end quote, which is, you know, pretty serious.

• 58:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Pretty extreme.

• 58:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, Rachel took the threat seriously enough that she contacted police. Because of that threat, Joe Mutt's father had become a person of interest in the investigation, obviously. However, according to Kim, Gilbert Police have never interviewed him regarding Rachel's murder, because he has allegedly avoided speaking with investigators. Kim said she was told by police leadership that they cannot force him to cooperate. Okay, so we have here a little issue. Joe Matt was supposed to spend the night with Rachel, meaning she wouldn't be alone. The reason that he's not spending the night with Rachel is because his father is calling him away with some random emergency at midnight. Now, we have this alleged threat that Joe Matt's father made to Rachel that she felt was

• 58:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  serious enough to contact the police, and Joe Matt's father has avoided talking to the police about this. This doesn't look great.

• 58:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Not great, optically, not what you want to have attached to your name.

• 59:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  No.

• 59:02Derrick Levasseur?

  For a murder case.

• 59:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, to be clear, Kim told us she has no idea whether Joe Matt's father had any involvement in Rachel's murder. However, she does find certain aspects of the situation unusual, which are the ones I just laid out, right? This doesn't look good. The reason Rachel was alone that night was because Joe Matt's father called away the person she was supposed to be with that night for a random emergency at midnight, which, what was the emergency? You know, has Joe Matt ever told Rachel's family what the emergency was that he had to leave for? Like, why is Joe Matt not making his father talk to the police? How is Joe Matt's relationship with his father at this point? Now, specifically, Kim thinks it's strange that he called Joe Matt just a few hours before Rachel was killed and told him he needed to come home. Rachel and Joe Matt were adults. They had recently been living together on the ranch, and there was nothing unusual

• 59:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  about them spending the night together. So, from Kim's perspective, it seemed odd that Joe Matt's father would insist Joe Matt came home so late at night. And I agree. Right from the beginning, when I first heard it, I'm like, that's weird. Like, what kind of emergency is happening that you need him to come home right now?

• 1:00:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, there was, there was a few things with this. And I remember when we initially covered this, the horse thing for me, the dash thing, I obviously entertained it. It didn't have a lot of, a lot of legs to it, in my opinion. But with Joe Matt's father, you know, we have to remember it's 2022. So, there forensically, from a digital perspective, there would be some things that you could do to confirm whether Joe Matt's father was in that area at that time. However... You could also say that hypothetically, we talked about the lock that was on the door. And who would know that there was no key available for said lock? Jomet's father would be one of those people. He's made threats.

• 1:00:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Is it possible that the reason he got him out of that apartment, Jomet, at that time, was because he knew that someone was on their way there? So to save his son, get him out of there, knowing that he would be able to communicate with whoever he hired or enlisted to do this, that that front door would be unlocked. And so that person goes in, knowing that the door's not going to be locked. And then, when they get to the secondary door, not knowing if it's locked or not, they just decide to boot it because they weren't expecting it to be closed.

• 1:01:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because they, yeah, because she had just been fostering those puppies, yeah.

• 1:01:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. So that, to me, when I say that out loud, and I felt this way before, much more possible to me than the idea that these ranch owners had anything to do with her death. But I'm not going to sit here and say that because of one argument and making this comment, although not good, is going to lead to a hired hit. It's a big jump.

• 1:01:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well.

• 1:01:40Derrick Levasseur?

  But people do crazy things.

• 1:01:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, why did he even say that to begin with?

• 1:01:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Like, yeah, it's ridiculous. It's ridiculous. But, you know, the lock with Jomet's father, as far as that being a theory you'd want to explore, is a big one. And I can see why law enforcement went down that road because you have to think about the people who would know what the actual situation was. Not only that they changed the lock and used the lock that they already had, but a lock that they didn't have a key for.

• 1:02:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or a lock that had been used at Jomet's father's house.

• 1:02:11Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:02:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Or, and so what's the other thing that we can say that, come on?

• 1:02:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean.

• 1:02:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Who would have a key potentially?

• 1:02:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Jomet's father.

• 1:02:20Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go. There you go. There you go.

• 1:02:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but like they said, but they said like the lock was broken, so it could only be locked.

• 1:02:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:02:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  From the inside.

• 1:02:29Derrick Levasseur?

  This is all knowledge that he would have.

• 1:02:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  But this is knowledge he would have. He would know about that lock. In fact, he could have tampered with that lock to make it so that it was broken and could, yeah.

• 1:02:38Derrick Levasseur?

  You're talking about a pool of people, maybe what, five, that would know about the specifics of that lock, so.

• 1:02:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't like, I don't like Joe Matt's father's involvement at this point right now.

• 1:02:47Derrick Levasseur?

  From the outside looking in, I think we can all agree, not looking good for Joe Matt's father.

• 1:02:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not looking good.

• 1:02:53Derrick Levasseur?

  And you can see why law enforcement took, took an interest.

• 1:02:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not looking good for Daddy Joe Matt.

• 1:02:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  And how can they not compel him at this point? Like, you made a death threat against this girl who ended up dead. How can you not be compelled at this point? To come in and tell us what you know and give us like information about where you were.

• 1:03:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I mean, you could have a lawyer present. I don't know why that wasn't done. You can, you can still have someone come in for an interrogation and they can have.

• 1:03:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  You could call a grand jury and.

• 1:03:18Derrick Levasseur?

  You could do that as well. I think just based on what we know, not enough there. Not enough there. And there may have been some exculpatory evidence as well.

• 1:03:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  I feel like there's enough, man. Joe Matt's dad's calling him away the night of the murder. Joe Matt's dad's lock. Joe Matt's dad made a death threat. There's enough there. He won't talk to the police. There's enough there. If I'm on a grand jury, I'm like, yeah, let's get Joe Matt's dad in here and see what the hell this dude has to say.

• 1:03:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, give him a subpoena, man.

• 1:03:43Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fair. I would venture to say that law enforcement was able to conclude with a high degree of certainty that physically Joe Matt's father didn't commit the crime, right?

• 1:03:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Physically, of course not.

• 1:03:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Not involved.

• 1:03:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:55Derrick Levasseur?

  And we don't believe that he is. He would have arrived home and Joe Matt's father would have been there.

• 1:03:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Joe Matt's dad probably wanted Joe Matt to come home so he could be an alibi to Joe Matt's dad being at home.

• 1:04:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Possible. And so that creates a burden for law enforcement where if Joe Matt's father's cleared, you have to find the missing link, which is the actual shooter.

• 1:04:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but you can't do that until you subpoena Joe Matt's dad to testify in front of a grand jury and tell us what he knows. Cause he won't do it willingly.

• 1:04:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I, I would, I would venture to say he's not going to say much.

• 1:04:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  So another lead investigators explored was involving the people subleasing Rachel's apartment. As we discussed earlier, when Rachel moved out of her apartment and onto the ranch, she needed someone to take over the lease. According to Kim, Rachel found a woman through Facebook Marketplace and agreed to sublease the apartment to her. That's all I needed to hear. Facebook Marketplace guilty. It was them.

• 1:04:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Some of the most sketchy people in the world inhabit Facebook Marketplace, okay?

• 1:04:52Derrick Levasseur?

  I love Facebook Marketplace.

• 1:04:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  I hate it. I have so many things.

• 1:04:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Even when a deal is good, I still try to lowball it.

• 1:04:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  I have so many things I want to sell and I refuse to do it on Facebook Marketplace, which would be easiest because it's just so sketchy.

• 1:05:05Derrick Levasseur?

  It is.

• 1:05:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  In every way. But you love it. You love the seediness of it. You're like, I'm on the black market.

• 1:05:10Derrick Levasseur?

  When I bought my house and I was redoing everything, I had a lot of older fixtures in there that were worth a lot of money, like ballisters and stuff and lights. And I put it all in my garage and I sold it and made thousands on that, on that stuff just because of Facebook Marketplace. Met some really cool people.

• 1:05:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, yeah. Oh, I'm sure they were interesting.

• 1:05:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I met a couple of Crime Weekly fans.

• 1:05:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm sure that these people are really interesting, actually, but...

• 1:05:32Derrick Levasseur?

  No, they were cool. We had some good conversations.

• 1:05:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  But listen, at the end of the day, like, you're a man, right? So people come to your house.

• 1:05:39Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm a man.

• 1:05:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm a woman. I can't have sketchy people come into my garage.

• 1:05:42Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, even I, but that could be the same said for me, too. I mean, I could be taken out just as easily with, you know.

• 1:05:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, right. Yeah, right. You're like, you stay vigilant, man. I'm over here, just, I'm over here looking to the birds in the sky and I'm getting, I'm getting popped, like...

• 1:05:55Derrick Levasseur?

  You're like, just go in my house and grab whatever you need.

• 1:05:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, like, what else do you want? Do you want, do you, this is my social security card. Oops, I left it in that desk I sold you.

• 1:06:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you probably would. You're right.

• 1:06:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, no. Uh, yeah, Facebook Marketplace, sketchy. So Rachel's parents were not comfortable with the arrangement. They had concerns about both the legal issues and the safety risks involving a stranger taking over the apartment. But Rachel was eager to move to the ranch because this is a new job, a new, but new opportunity. She needed someone to take over the lease, so she decided to move forward anyway. Unfortunately, Kim and Todd's concerns turned out to be well founded. The woman repeatedly failed to pay rent on time. Kim told us that multiple people were also living in the apartment. Neighbors reported frequent disturbances and police were called to the unit on numerous occasions. There were also allegations that drug activity was taking place there.

• 1:06:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Facebook Marketplace. So by May 2022, the situation had become so problematic that Rachel had little choice but to move back into the apartment herself. And when she returned on June 1st, she immediately noticed something was wrong. According to Ken, the apartment smelled strongly of marijuana. Then something even stranger happened. During the early morning hours of June 2nd, Rachel woke up sometime between 2 and 3 a.m. and she discovered a man standing next to her bed. The apartment door had been locked, which told Rachel the man used a key to enter. Rachel screamed and the man immediately ran away. After he left, Rachel went into the kitchen and found something unexpected sitting on the island, a jar of dill pickles. The pickles didn't belong to Rachel and they hadn't been there before.

• 1:07:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  And to this day, no one knows what significance, if any, the jar of pickles had. Now, this is terrifying, by the way. So I also have questions. This is June 2nd.

• 1:07:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Did Rachel and Joe Matt not put the new lock and install that until June 3rd? The, the day before the night that she ends up being murdered?

• 1:07:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Might have been.

• 1:07:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because if they used a key, then they would have had to have had a key from the old lock. Because how would they have a key to Joe Matt's dad's lock? Unless that was Joe Matt's dad with the pickles?

• 1:08:05Derrick Levasseur?

  This, this whole incident, when I heard it, pretty self-explanatory. The people that were living there before her, it was a revolving door. They probably were allowing people to make copies of keys, coming and going as they please. And more than likely, this guy who may have been drunk, high, or a combination of the two, walks in there with his key, with his jar of pickles, not even knowing that the previous tenants no longer lived there, and stumbles into the bedroom and learns that the people he's expecting to see are not in the bed. And then he runs out because he's spooked, leaving his jar of pickles behind. But that's what it sounds like to me. And, and I don't want to skate over what you just said in the previous paragraph there. These people, it's alleged that they had some criminal activity going on in there.

• 1:08:49Derrick Levasseur?

  With that drug activity, that alleged drug activity comes a lot of other nefarious individuals, a lot of crime, exchange of money, people owing people money. If they weren't paying Rachel, they probably weren't paying their distributors, their dealers, whoever it was. And we don't know how deep it ran. And someone could have been pretty pissed off. And this may have been an ongoing issue the entire time that they were living there.

• 1:09:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, yes, or maybe-

• 1:09:13Derrick Levasseur?

  That's something I gravitate toward.

• 1:09:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or maybe the woman who was living there was making money on the side with gentleman callers.

• 1:09:21Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt.

• 1:09:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  This was a repeat customer who'd come over with pickles before. I don't know if the pickles are for eating or for other things.

• 1:09:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, whoa.

• 1:09:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dude, listen-

• 1:09:30Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm hungry, okay?

• 1:09:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't judge what people pay for, okay?

• 1:09:34Derrick Levasseur?

  But you're right, not to make light of it. When drugs are around, what I have found is all the other criminal activity that you experienced, larcenies, robberies, assaults, murders, sex crimes, they all follow it.

• 1:09:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:09:49Derrick Levasseur?

  That's why getting the drug houses out of your community are so important because it's not just the drugs, it's everything that comes with it.

• 1:09:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's the depravity that comes along with it, yeah.

• 1:09:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. And so Rachel, unbeknownst to her, this is what this apartment's being used for, and it was kind of a quick move, right? She's not there and then she is. And a lot of the people that were coming there on a frequent basis were probably not sent an email to let them know that this house was no longer available.

• 1:10:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hey, we're not there anymore. Yeah, it was like a quick memo to the office, you know?

• 1:10:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Hey guys, just a heads up, gonna have to find a new spot to squat.

• 1:10:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  We've changed locations.

• 1:10:25Derrick Levasseur?

  You're gonna learn through the process of elimination and again, they were probably handing out that key to a lot of people.

• 1:10:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and so what we will come to find out is this is what triggers Rachel to change the locks, right? Because she's like, okay, obviously- Like I said, a lot of people were living at the apartment. A lot of people had the key. They don't realize that somebody different is living here now. I don't want this to happen again. Now, Rachel never reported the incident to the police, which I think is unfortunate. She said she was startled by what happened, but she didn't seem especially frightened afterward. She believed that the man was looking for the former subletters and didn't necessarily intend to harm her because he ran out when she woke up and got scared. You know, he was like, ah, this is the wrong person that I'm not here to see.

• 1:11:11Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right. And she's more than likely, she's right.

• 1:11:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, right.

• 1:11:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly what was happening. You know, if you're not coming to commit a crime, you're not bringing a jar of pickles, leaving them on the counter, strolling into the bedroom.

• 1:11:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Unless someone's trying to scare her and it's like kind of a campaign of terror.

• 1:11:23Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a weird way to do it.

• 1:11:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Why? Why? I think it's very unsettling, man.

• 1:11:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Stand over the bed, but then you run out of the apartment when she sees you and...

• 1:11:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but like, what? How long are you standing over the bed that it takes you to realize this girl is not the girl you're there to see?

• 1:11:36Derrick Levasseur?

  I bet you it was quick. I bet you it was quick. I bet you it was more of a thing where she heard him come in.

• 1:11:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  They didn't come in and be like, hey, all the furniture's gone? Doesn't look like the belongings that are here.

• 1:11:45Derrick Levasseur?

  It's dark.

• 1:11:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I guess.

• 1:11:47Derrick Levasseur?

  It's dark and she didn't have a lot of the furniture yet. And I would have to guess if these people are the type of people that I'm envisioning, they didn't have a lot of furniture either.

• 1:11:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:11:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe a mattress or something in the bedroom, nothing too crazy.

• 1:11:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 1:11:59Derrick Levasseur?

  I've been in a lot of these trap houses, a lot of these drug houses. They're not, they're not fully furnished. We'll put it that way.

• 1:12:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're not fully furnished.

• 1:12:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Let's just say when we were doing search warrants, there wasn't a lot of places to sit.

• 1:12:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're not corporate apartments.

• 1:12:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And you actually, you wouldn't want to sit down in any of these places because...

• 1:12:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree.

• 1:12:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I got stories.

• 1:12:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Well, instead of calling the police, Rachel called her fiance, Joe Matt. Joe Matt came over. The two decided they needed to change the locks immediately, so they installed a lock from Joe Matt's father's house. There was one problem. They didn't have a key for it.

• 1:12:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Hmm.

• 1:12:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  The lock could only be secured from the inside. And like we talked about earlier, when Joe Matt left the apartment at around midnight on June 3rd, he asked Rachel to lock the door, but he never heard her lock it. And then just two hours later, Rachel called 911 and told the dispatcher she'd been shot. Why didn't they have a key? Who had a key? So Joe Matt's father's like, I got this lock, but no key? Joe Matt's father does not look good to me.

• 1:12:53Derrick Levasseur?

  I think the thought process, if everything's on the up and up, was, man, people are com- people obviously have this key that are not supposed to have it. We have to change this lock ASAP.

• 1:13:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  But we'll do something temporary.

• 1:13:05Derrick Levasseur?

  We just do something for, just a temporary fix, just to get it in today.

• 1:13:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just to get it in today, yeah.

• 1:13:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Right now, let's do it.

• 1:13:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even though they could have gone to Home Depot or Lowe's and bought a complete lock and key set.

• 1:13:12Derrick Levasseur?

  I got an extra lock for you.

• 1:13:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Use this one.

• 1:13:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but that's what I'm saying. They could have gone to Home Depot or Lowe's and for a pretty reasonable price, bought a whole new lock and key set. But I wonder if Joe Matt's father was like, no, don't do that. Don't worry, you're already tight for money. You're trying to get Dash back. I have a solution for you. Was he the one that suggested the lock?

• 1:13:32Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a reason this case hasn't been solved, Stephanie. It's because it's not as clear cut as it may seem as to what happened here. I have my opinion. I think a lot of you guys know what I feel, but yeah, there are things about this case that are unexplainable, which is why it's compelling and a lot of people gravitate toward it because it's, it's an interesting case.

• 1:13:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the released police reports also revealed just how many people investigators spoke with during the course of the investigation. Detectives interviewed dozens of individuals, including a man incarcerated in Yuma and another person who was in custody of the Arizona Department of Corrections, Rehabilitation and Reentry. However, because so much of the report was redacted, it remains unclear why those individuals were questioned or what investigators hoped to learn from them. So what do you make of that? These are people who are in the system, okay? Incarcerated. We're protecting their privacy, but we're also protecting why we want to talk to them? What's up with that?

• 1:14:24Derrick Levasseur?

  How I interpreted that piece of information was these people incarcerated, right? And this is, we're going in the weeds here and you may be getting-

• 1:14:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think you think the people incarcerated are connected to the people who lived at the apartment.

• 1:14:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:14:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, that she leased the apartment to and it's drug, yes.

• 1:14:39Derrick Levasseur?

  And you don't want to give up your snitch or your confidential informant because then you're asked. You're asked out at that point.

• 1:14:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, you also don't want to reveal that they've talked to you.

• 1:14:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:14:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because now they're gonna stop talking to you, even if it's just not this case, it's other cases, right?

• 1:14:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, there's, there's an obligation as an investigator, and this is something I give a lot of cops or where they put people's information out there who help with a particular crime, and now that person still has to live their life amongst their community. And so you gotta be, that is a responsibility that I always took very seriously.

• 1:15:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  You mean like it would make them a target?

• 1:15:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, listen, I've told, talked about this story in my book. I had a hit put on me. And the only reason I found out about that hit was because someone who was a confidential informant for me, I took care of them, never gave up their identity. And when they were plotting to kill me in prison, this person was there. And got a note to me to let me know. So it's something that I take very seriously and them redacting these names from these potential prison informants, I am completely on board with.

• 1:15:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  But everything they have to say, like the reason that they're being talked to you. I, I, yes, I understand redacting their names. But the reason they're being investigated or the reason they're being talked to in regards to the investigation.

• 1:15:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, well, that's where we connect the dots of what I, and I think we're at the point where I can say it, right? I believe that this was a case of mistaken identity. I know you got a little bit more to go here, but I believe the, the actual target that night was the previous people living there. And I think there was a lot of criminal activity regarding that, that apartment and those people. And that's why they're going to these individuals in prison who potentially are connected to the same circle of criminals. They're trying to figure out who was the shooter because they got the wrong person. I believe that's what was going on here. And that's the route that I would have really focused on as well.

• 1:16:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I understand that someone at the apartment or in the immediate area could have seen Rachel or knew her prior to this and said, oh, here she is. But when we talk about this case, you have to use reasonable deduction. And that starts with motives. And when you don't know who the suspect is, you have to focus on the victim and developing a profile on them. And what we know is that there were no signs of sexual assault, no signs of a robbery. So those motives are off the table. So clearly this becomes a deliberate targeted hit.

• 1:17:05Derrick Levasseur?

  And yet, it was conducted by someone who appears to be an amateur for no particular reason because based on the profile that we have of our victim, there doesn't appear to be anybody, including Joe Met's father, who would need to go to this lengths to take her out. She didn't have any information. She wasn't creating a threat to anybody. This is an extreme circumstance where it's not completely out of the realm of possibility, but when we weigh out what's stronger, I think the probability of it being a case of mistaken identity is much higher.

• 1:17:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, well, listen, the assistant police chief was asked, why are there extensive redactions? He defended the decision, explaining, quote, "The redactions are there because we feel that if the information was released, it could jeopardize a case. Like I said before, people know specifically what happened." End quote. What does that even, people know specifically what happened?

• 1:17:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they're saying there's a community of people.

• 1:18:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you're saying people know what happened?

• 1:18:03Derrick Levasseur?

  A group of people, and what do you read between that line? They're not leaning towards Joe Met, right? It's Joe Met's father. They're leaning towards a criminal entity or a very low level criminal entity where you have drug dealers, drug users, and all these other nefarious individuals who communicate amongst each other, who realize, oh, man, they tried to kill so and so and they got the wrong girl instead. People are talking on the streets, for sure.

• 1:18:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, oh, for sure, right? Especially the person who did it.

• 1:18:32Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt.

• 1:18:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  If it was a case of mistaken identity, which at this point, Joe Met's dad looking pretty bad to me. I'm not completely convinced, but let's take our last break. I'll be right back. Can I tell you what I do whenever I see something advertised for way less than everyone else is advertising it?

• 1:18:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Assume there's a catch?

• 1:18:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you know me. I'm not a trusting person.

• 1:18:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Skeptical Stephanie?

• 1:18:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, because usually there is a catch, by the way. Hidden fees, surprise charges, some weird limitation they forgot to mention until you've already signed up and reached the limitation that you didn't know was there.

• 1:19:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I think we've all been burned before, and if you say you haven't, you're lying.

• 1:19:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, and that's exactly why when people hear that Mint Mobile starts at just 15 bucks a month, the first question is always, okay, what's the catch? And honestly, after switching and trying to get out myself, I can tell you, skeptical Stephanie can tell you, there really isn't one. There isn't.

• 1:19:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:19:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you get fast, reliable coverage on the nation's largest 5G network. You can keep your current phone, you can keep your current number, and you can choose a plan that actually works for your life.

• 1:19:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and somehow you still pay less. That's the, that's the crazy part.

• 1:19:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Way less, and that's probably been my favorite part.

• 1:19:44Derrick Levasseur?

  I would hope so.

• 1:19:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. It's everybody's favorite part, but every month when the bill comes in, I'm not wondering why I'm paying a small fortune to just have a phone. I'm not like, what are these fees? Why, why is it extra? Why is it more this month than it was last month? It's just crazy.

• 1:19:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's one of those things where you realize how much you were overpaying before.

• 1:20:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  And how you didn't have to do that.

• 1:20:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope.

• 1:20:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  And how long you did that and you didn't have to do that. So Mint Mobile basically looked at everything people hate about wireless service and fixed it. No gimmicks, no gotchas, just premium service without the bloated monthly bill. And Derek, tell them how they can check it out for themselves.

• 1:20:16Derrick Levasseur?

  To get your new wireless plan for just 15 bucks a month, go to mintmobile.com/crimeweekly. That's mintmobile.com/crimeweekly. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com/crimeweekly.

• 1:20:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's it. There's really no catch. There's $45 payment upfront required, equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three-month plan only. Speeds slower above 40 gigs on an unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details.

• 1:20:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the reports also showed that investigators pursued a wide range of investigative avenues as the case progressed. Search warrants were obtained for social media accounts and cell phones, and numerous items were submitted for forensic testing. But once again, the details surrounding those searches and the evidence submitted for testing. were heavily redacted. Well, little information was available indicated that no matches were found. Now for Rachel's family, the lack of information has been incredibly difficult. It feels like the police are over here like, we're releasing the hundreds and hundreds of pages of stuff, but most of it's redacted. It's heavily redacted. So years have passed since Rachel was murdered, yet they still know very little about what investigators have actually uncovered. As Kim explained, quote, "It's so hard as a grieving family to wait so long with no answers.

• 1:21:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's just, it's really hard to go on in everyday life," end quote. Despite those frustrations, Rachel's family has continued pushing for answers. In October of 2024, Silent Witness announced a $15,000 reward for information leading to a break in the case. That reward was later increased to $20,000. The Hanson's have also partnered with a private investigator in hopes that a fresh set of eyes might uncover new information or generate new leads. Unfortunately, very few updates have been released since then. On June 4th, 2026, four years after Rachel was murdered, her family held a press conference to provide an update on the case and once again asked for the public's help. Law enforcement officials were invited to attend, but they declined. When questioned about their absence, police later explained that they wanted the focus

• 1:22:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  of the event to remain entirely on Rachel's family. Investigators did provide a statement to the media emphasizing that Rachel's case remains active and under investigation. However, despite the passage of time, no suspects have been identified publicly, no arrests have been made, and no motive has been revealed. Kim did tell us that investigators have informed the family they do not believe Rachel was specifically targeted. And while they continue waiting for answers, the Hanson's have focused much of their energy on Rachel's rescue, which Derek and I talked about this. We are going to make a donation through Criminal Coffee to Rachel's rescue, for the Hanson's, for Rachel. It's something that we like to do when we are personally connected to these cases and invested and we talk about them.

• 1:23:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, you know, anybody else is welcome to do it. We will put the link in the description box, but we definitely are on behalf of Criminal Coffee.

• 1:23:13Derrick Levasseur?

  And even if you don't, if you're already buying coffee from Criminal Coffee and directly you're donating as well?

• 1:23:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, exactly. So the community has already pulled together to buy criminal coffee and

• 1:23:24Derrick Levasseur?

  You're already donating. If you've bought a bag of coffee, you're donating.

• 1:23:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  So since its creation in 2023, the organization has helped save and find homes for hundreds of dogs and puppies. And through that work, Kim and Todd feel they are carrying on Rachel's legacy while also helping animals the way Rachel always wanted to. Kim told us there have been countless moments over the years when she felt Rachel's presence through the rescue and the work they do every day. As Kim explained, quote, "I know that she is watching over and I feel her presence often and I know that makes her happy," end quote. So in nothing that the police have released, have we had any indication that the former tenants have been questioned or talked to, correct?

• 1:24:02Derrick Levasseur?

  There's nothing that I've, that I've, we've covered on these two episodes, but I know that they've been looked into.

• 1:24:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  They've been looked into. But as far as we know, from what's been released publicly, from what the public can see, there's really no

• 1:24:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Forward-facing, fair.

• 1:24:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Forward-facing line of investigation that we can follow. And it does seem to me, based on like, the way the police are handling it, how they're kind of like being very closed-lipped about it, they're like, hey, we have no more avenues to investigate, but have no fear. This investigation is still very open and active. This is something they do when they just don't want to have to release anything through FOIA requests, or they don't want to be compelled to release anything that they don't want to release.

• 1:24:44Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fair. I've, I've, I've run up against this numerous times, even on Breaking Homicide, so I can't disagree with you, now that I've been on the other side of it.

• 1:24:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  My question would be, and this kind of started brewing in my head when we were talking about the fact that these incarcerated individuals had been discussed and talked to, and everything was redacted when it was released. And you were like, well, yeah, if they have like inside people, if they have informants, then yeah, they don't want to compromise those people, so they're going to redact things. And then my next thought was kind of like, do the police maybe know more than they're saying, but because an arrest might compromise somebody they have in position that's helpful to them? Or it might compromise a deeper sort of drug or trafficking investigation they have going on, like an operation, like an undercover operation?

• 1:25:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Are they not making a move right now? Because it seems like based on the avenues they followed, if they did look into the current or the previous people who leased Rachel's apartment, and that led them to this network of drugs and like an underbelly that led them to talk to these incarcerated individuals, it feels like you would probably have enough to know. Like you're getting social media stuff, you're getting cellphone stuff, you're getting GPS locations. You probably would have enough to know who was at Rachel's apartment that night just through like the grapevine.

• 1:26:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  But why are you releasing things that are so redacted? And why are you not making any moves? Like, I don't believe that the police have no idea what happened here. I think they know what happened here.

• 1:26:21Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree with you.

• 1:26:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  So is the, could that be possible? That whoever's involved may be beneficial to the police in another way? And so they are not making moves to put that person under arrest? Because they need that person for another operation? Or for another sting? Or for something that they consider like bigger? You know, like the greater good?

• 1:26:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I can only speak to my experience. And I'm well aware at this point that it could be perceived as me protecting law enforcement. But if you've been watching the show at all, then you know that that's not my thing. You know, I call it how I see it, balls and strikes always. From my personal experience, and I've worked everywhere from the local level to the federal level. We've had cases where we've had informants in places for drug operations, and there's been a murder or a significant crime where they've enlisted our help to facilitate an arrest through the information we're able to gather. And in my experience, take it with a grain of salt, there has never been a case where we've done something like that,

• 1:27:26Derrick Levasseur?

  where a homicide of a 19-year-old girl wouldn't take precedent over a drug operation. Now, I don't represent all of law enforcement. And even though I was a supervisor and I would always be willing to do whatever I could to solve this case, even if it ruined my own operation, there's always going to be another informant, right? I wouldn't say I'm not. Releasing this information or I'm gonna protect this person even though it could help bring justice to this family. But I don't work for every police department. So you saying it, it would be irresponsible and unprofessional for me to say, nope, it's not possible what you're saying, Stephanie. But I can only speak to my anecdotal experience.

• 1:28:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  So what I'm saying is not that it would take presidents, right? But in their heads, they're gonna reason it and ration it as, well, Rachel's dead already, right? We're not protecting her or not protecting her.

• 1:28:15Derrick Levasseur?

  They could. I mean, I would never think like that. But yeah, I guess I can't speak.

• 1:28:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  We can't bring her back. We can't save her. Okay? However, this person who's involved is deeply embedded in an operation we already have going on. Like Gilbert, Arizona does have its own drug enforcement unit. We know the area. There's a fentanyl crisis there. There's cartel infiltration. There's a lot of stuff going on.

• 1:28:42Derrick Levasseur?

  A lot of drug activity in Arizona.

• 1:28:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just in Arizona in general, right?

• 1:28:46Derrick Levasseur?

  For sure. A lot of cartel operations.

• 1:28:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  A lot of cartel operations. So there could be deeper things happening and they need this person to see through this deeper thing. But they're thinking, hey, once this is over, then we can move on this. Or once they figured out who the person was, they had to talk to the person and the person was like, yeah, I did it. But like, I'm not gonna keep helping you with this bigger thing that's gonna save hundreds of lives. If you, it's kind of like a deal with the devil, you know, which we know that police departments have done before. They do it in court all the time. Like, we know you suck, you know, kind of like with Harmony Montgomery. Kayla, you suck, her stepmother, but we think Adam, her father, sucks more. So we'll make a deal with you for less time if you if you give us him, right?

• 1:29:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So that's kind of what I'm thinking because it doesn't look like the police, based on the investigation, it looks like it was pretty thorough. It looks like they were going down the right path.

• 1:29:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they wanted to solve this one. There's no doubt about it. They wanted to solve it.

• 1:29:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  But then something was like, kind of.

• 1:29:47Derrick Levasseur?

  On the note of they wanted to solve this, this is the main reason I don't think Joe Metz's father is responsible. I'm sure they vetted him thoroughly and like you had mentioned, digital, forensics, financials, they, they went through everything. So either he did a really good job, or he's not involved. So let's go back to what you were just referring to.

• 1:30:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not convinced Joe Metz's father's not involved. I'm just gonna say that.

• 1:30:08Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't believe he's involved and, and it's not only because he was probably vetted thoroughly. It's also because what we're talking about right now, what we're talking about right now to me is much more plausible. And so.

• 1:30:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, let's follow that vein then.

• 1:30:21Derrick Levasseur?

  What, what I think is it's not a matter of, I think they know what happened. I just don't think they know who. And you just kind of hit on where I really am as far as this case. This house, this apartment, although small, could have been used to facilitate bigger money transactions, drug transactions, could have been a stash house for a much bigger operation.

• 1:30:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they were like, hey, this apartment complex doesn't have cameras and somebody's willing to lease us an apartment there, right?

• 1:30:47Derrick Levasseur?

  A lot more could have been going on than we even know. Could have been cartel connected. And I think that the people living there pissed off the wrong people. And potentially someone was sent up from Mexico or someone from that area, an amateur was sent up to take these people out or to take this person out. And there wasn't a lot of research done. There wasn't a lot of intelligence collected of reconnaissance done beforehand. They were given an address. They went into the apartment. They kicked open the door, shot the person in the bed because they were told that's where they would be. And then they ran out of there.

• 1:31:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Possibly the person didn't even know.

• 1:31:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Who they were going to kill.

• 1:31:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  That they were, that they had killed the wrong person until she went down later. And also what you're saying is there's maybe something going on in Gilbert or in the, you know,

• 1:31:31Derrick Levasseur?

  There absolutely is.

• 1:31:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then they're, they're mad at the person in the apartment, but they're not taking care of it themselves. They call in like a handler or someone they know does this kind of work from possibly Mexico cartel related. That person comes into town in the dead of night real quick, does what they gotta do.

• 1:31:48Derrick Levasseur?

  And gets out. It happens all the time. And it could even been a territory thing, right? It could have been something as simple as that, but the person who actually pulled the trigger is not high up. And one of two things happened. They went back to Mexico and you're never gonna find them. Or, which they do all the time, because of this shooting and because of the heat it brought on to their organization, this person was dealt with. And you're never gonna find them. That's simple. You went in there, you fucked up, you shot a 19-year-old girl. Now we have the cops everywhere looking at this.

• 1:32:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Talking to people who are connected to us in prison. Yeah.

• 1:32:24Derrick Levasseur?

  You are a liability.

• 1:32:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep.

• 1:32:26Derrick Levasseur?

  And you know, in the cartel and these drug organizations, what happens to liabilities? They go on a long train ride. If you're familiar with Yellowstone.

• 1:32:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or Breaking Bad.

• 1:32:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Or Breaking Bad. So that's, that's, that's where my gut is on this one. And that's what I think happened here. And I think that's why they haven't solved it yet. But I think if we're ever gonna solve it, and I don't know what has been done or what can be done, but you have to reverse engineer this from the point of the people who were living there. And I talked about it in episode one, right? If you're trying to reverse engineer Rachel and see who would have had an ax to grind and would have went in there and shoot her, you're gonna probably end up at a dead end. But if you do the same process with the people who were there just a few days prior, I think that's, I think that's the golden ticket.

• 1:33:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

• 1:33:14Derrick Levasseur?

  And maybe they've already done it, and maybe they have gone as far as they can. But unfortunately, they haven't been able to pinpoint that person.

• 1:33:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:21Derrick Levasseur?

  That's my belief.

• 1:33:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  But there's a potential that they know more and they're just not moving because...

• 1:33:26Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. The question is, knowing more, is that because they already know who did it and they're protecting this person? Or because they know more, but they just don't have enough to bring charges?

• 1:33:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I would be very interested to hear what everyone in the comments has to say. What do you think? Do you think it is this kind of thing, like the drug, pre-leaser kind of combination? Is Joe Matt's father suspicious to you? Because he's suspicious to me, and I'd like to get him in front of a grand jury and actually get some information out of him. But anyone with information about Rachel's case is encouraged to submit an anonymous tip to Silent Witness by calling 480 WITNESS. A reward of up to 20,000 is available for information that leads to a resolution in the case. So if you're listening to this, you know something, say something. You can do it anonymously.

• 1:34:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, absolutely. We're thinking about Kim and Todd and the rest of Rachel's family and friends and everybody affected by this, including Joe Matt. Just a tragic situation. And if it's what I think it is, it's even more tragic, right? Because Rachel wasn't even the person who was supposed to be shot here. But that doesn't mean we don't keep fighting for her regardless of the uphill battle we may have. We keep asking questions. We keep telling her story. And we make sure that the people responsible for investigating her case are also held accountable. And that's what we're doing here. So like Stephanie said, let us know what you think. We appreciate the love and support. We'll see you next week. Until then, everyone stay safe out there and we'll see you soon.

• 1:34:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.