Ashley Flynn | The Missing Murder Weapon and the Mistress Who Lied (Part 4)

In the early morning hours of February 16th, 2026, Ashley Flynn was shot and killed inside the home she shared with her husband, Caleb, and their two daughters. Caleb told police that someone had broken into the house, murdered his wife, and disappeared. Up until that night, Caleb’s life had been deeply intertwined with Ashley’s. They had been married for fifteen years. They were raising two daughters together. They attended church together. Caleb worked for Ashley’s father, was close with her family, and had spent years building a life that was connected to hers in almost every possible way. But investigators would soon discover that there was another version of Caleb Flynn’s life. One that Ashley did not fully see. A secret relationship. Thousands upon thousands of messages. Lies, hidden accounts, deleted conversations, and a second life running parallel to the first. And as police began pulling those two lives apart, they also began uncovering something else: the story of what Ashley had been seeing, questioning, and trying to make sense of in the months before she died.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And we are diving into part four of the Ashley Flynn case. Now, in part three, we followed Ashley Flynn's final hours from the evening she spent making her daughters feel loved to the 911 call Caleb made at 2:30 the following morning. He told police that someone had broken into their home and killed his wife while he slept down the hall, but the scene itself raised questions. The damaged garage door, the missing gun, and the activity recorded by Caleb's devices before he called for help. As investigators compared his account with what they could document, there was more and more that needed explaining. Now detectives examined the physical evidence, they extracted phone data and interviewed the people closest to Ashley and Caleb.

• 0:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  The conversations that Caleb and Aaliyah worked so hard to keep hidden were about to become a large part of that investigation. So here's where we are today. Now, before we get started today, I want everyone to know I am leaving for a trip with my family. So we've been bulk recording and recording a lot ahead. So it was just this past-

• 1:21Derrick Levasseur?

  We've been seeing a lot of each other.

• 1:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it was this past Sunday where part one went out and we were able to see your reactions to that and we'd already recorded part two and part three by the time that that everything came out. But it's so funny because the soaking conversation was, I guess, a-

• 1:38Derrick Levasseur?

  It was a topic, it was a topic of conversation.

• 1:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was a topic of interest, which is funny. And then there is a lot of people who knew about it, a lot of people like me who didn't. But the people who knew about it, knew a lot about it. Okay, and they said there's also a part of soaking where-

• 1:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm looking at my phone again right here with all the messages.

• 1:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Where someone else will be in the room with the soaking couple and move the bed for the couple on the bed.

• 2:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Shake in the bed.

• 2:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's just getting weirder and weirder.

• 2:07Derrick Levasseur?

  It's sex, folks. It's sex.

• 2:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's, it's, it's just getting weirder and weirder, like the loopholes, we will try to-

• 2:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Can you imagine being the friend?

• 2:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't imagine being anybody in that room. That is the weirdest thing, like is the friend's back turned? Or is the friend participating as an active observer? Or is it one of those things where like, oh, grab the bed with my hands, but turn my back and then shake it? Like, I don't know.

• 2:32Derrick Levasseur?

  And then I was asking the question, I'm going to give the PG version here because I'm not trying to get demonetized, but I was asking Stephanie a real question here where it's like, if the shaking causes, you know-

• 2:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  An outcome.

• 2:44Derrick Levasseur?

  An outcome. Hey, I see it. Did you see what you did there? I don't even know if you know what you did there.

• 2:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know what I did.

• 2:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, if it causes an outcome-

• 2:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 2:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Um, that's sex. And then you, you corrected me, you're like, Derek, it's sex regardless.

• 2:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's already done. The moment that the key entered the lock, it was sex.

• 3:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 3:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, even without an outcome. Just gonna say that, so.

• 3:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 3:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's what I'm saying, they're creating loopholes in gray areas instead of just being like, you know, we're just gonna do, we're just gonna have sex. It's okay, like, it's okay, because they, somehow they think that, that God or the church is gonna, gonna be like, well, so technically they followed the rules, you know? Technically, they did. No, that's not, that's not how it works. But thank you all so much for keeping us entertained and educated as we do for you. You do it back for us. So thank you very much. All right, let's dive in. So the police searched for the gun, the one missing from Caleb's truck. Over two days, Agent David McMullin, along with an ATF detection dog, searched the house, yard, sheds, wood line, and a footpath and part of a farm field.

• 3:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  The dog never alerted to anything. About 15 officers performed grid searches of a park, a bike path, and a wooded area. Still, nothing was found. Detective Bernard spent two to two and a half hours sweeping the neighborhood drains with a high-powered magnet. Nothing was found. Inside the house, they noticed a disturbed area of insulation in the attic, so they pulled out the insulation and searched inside the walls. Nothing was found. They put Caleb's truck and Ashley's van on a lift and searched through and under the vehicles, but still, nothing was found. Officer Will Roberts ran a camera on a wire through air vents and under a shed. They lifted the neighbor's shed. Nothing was found.

• 4:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  So here's something the defense is gonna really sit on. And we're gonna talk about that in the final part next week, what the defense is saying. And the defense does have some, I don't want to say valid points, but they have some objections that I think, under different circumstances, with a different, with a different person on trial, that they may have caused reasonable doubt. So what the defense is basically saying is, how did Caleb shoot his wife, call 911 within a few minutes, and then also get rid of a gun? And we're gonna talk about that timeline more in this episode, trust me.

• 5:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Caleb's concealed carry application said he bought the gun in South Carolina. So Detective Bernard made about two dozen inquiries, but found no purchase record for either Caleb or Ashley Flynn. I have been thinking about this and I think that they probably should have checked Caleb's parents' names, but-

• 5:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, could have been a gift or someone who purchased it for, yeah, absolutely.

• 5:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  But the only evidence at that point that Caleb ever owned a gun was basically his own words. And the only evidence that the gun was in the center console of his truck was, once again, Caleb's own statement to the police, plus his DNA found on the console button, which doesn't necessarily even mean that there's a gun in the center console, it just means that's Caleb's truck and he's touched that button before.

• 6:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Gum, keys, coins, cards, whatever.

• 6:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Sunglasses, yeah.

• 6:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 6:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Additionally, during one of their out of town trips, Caleb had produced a gun from his center console and shown it to Aaliyah Botner. So she testified that she had seen a gun with Caleb in his truck. So that's like what we know about the gun, but it's still, to this day, hasn't been found, which is insane to me.

• 6:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, well, it's, it's interesting because you're gonna have to correct me on this because we got so many of these episodes in the can now, but I believe you said he had a Mossberg shotgun.

• 6:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he had two other weapons.

• 6:42Derrick Levasseur?

  But I don't, was there a handgun?

• 6:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, it was a shotgun and a rifle, I believe.

• 6:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it was like a 22 long rifle. And so my point being, again, I'm speculating here, but more than likely, the, a firearm that you would keep inside that center console physically could not be a shotgun. And it wouldn't be a long rifle either, a 22 long rifle, although 22 caliber long rifle is a little confusing, but it's a long rifle caliber weapon. So it's a little bullet, but it's a long rifle caliber weapon. Technically, it could still be a short barrel, but more than likely, most people carry pistols in their consoles.

• 7:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so Caleb's got a concealed carry permit. He's not gonna have it for his rifle or shotgun.

• 7:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly. And so the fact that we're not finding a pistol anywhere and we have Aaliyah saying it, that to me is incriminating because as a responsible gun owner, Caleb should be able to tell you where the firearm is that he showed-

• 7:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's saying that the intruder stole it and killed Ashley and ran off with it. Yes, that's, that's what the defense's story. The killer came in, knew where the gun was in the console because he showed it to Aaliyah before.

• 7:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 7:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay.

• 7:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that would mean that Aaliyah did this.

• 7:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or Aaliyah somehow manufactured this happening, yeah.

• 7:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Knew all this, yeah.

• 7:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and so they took the gun from the console, killed Ashley, and then they took off with the gun, which is why it's not found anywhere around the Flynn home or in the Flynn home.

• 8:07Derrick Levasseur?

  You see my surprise here because I'm like, yeah, that sounds crazy. So you have a, you have an assassin who goes there and doesn't even bring their own weapon. He's gonna, he or she's gonna rely on a weapon being in the center console of the car. What if they moved it?

• 8:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  And why would Aaliyah tell the assassins to use Caleb's own gun? If she wanted to be with Caleb, why are you trying to set him up?

• 8:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Also true. But I mean, there's so much more to that, like logistically, most responsible gun owners will not leave their firearm in their vehicle at night. Most responsible gun owners will take it inside and put it into a safe.

• 8:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Put it in a safe, yeah.

• 8:40Derrick Levasseur?

  So if you have a-

• 8:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Especially when you have young children at home.

• 8:42Derrick Levasseur?

  So does the assassin know the safe code as well, just in case?

• 8:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, it was, Caleb said it was in the center console.

• 8:48Derrick Levasseur?

  But how would the assassin know that it was gonna be there?

• 8:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because Aaliyah told him.

• 8:52Derrick Levasseur?

  But how does Aaliyah know that he doesn't take it out at night? I mean, it's just, it's a, it's a lot of, my point being here, this is a lot of risk for a, a trained assassin to take, and it's unnecessary.

• 9:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe the assassin had a backup gun, but

• 9:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Just in case.

• 9:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  To use Caleb's gun, just in case. Maybe the assassin hadn't done any cleaning or like upkeep to their own gun and they were worried it would misfire or something.

• 9:14Derrick Levasseur?

  That's why they have the term reasonable doubt. Reasonable. None of this sounds reasonable, but okay.

• 9:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  So a casing from the murder scene was run through the National Ballistics Database, but produced no leads. Ballistics showed that both bullets came from a nine millimeter weapon. The rifling was too generic to identify a model. However, the Springfield that was missing from Caleb's truck was not ruled out as the murder weapon. So the defense could argue a stranger used Caleb's gun and took it. And the state could argue that Caleb used the gun and disposed of it. Neither side, though, could prove where the gun went. Now, the state didn't need the gun to convict. It argued the rest of the evidence was enough without it. The searches for the weapon were extensive, but of course, there were gaps.

• 10:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Detective Morgan admitted no one searched the fields behind the neighborhood. We're going to talk about this in a second. The ATF handler said a buried or wrapped gun might show only as disturbed ground and items hidden inside walls were hard to detect. So for the defense, that meant the state couldn't prove where the gun went, but for the state, it meant the gun could be somewhere nobody looked, which I think that's what it is, and I think I know where it might be. But the two nine millimeter casings on the floor near the foot of the bed in the master bedroom were sent to the BCI lab. Alex Miller, a BCI firearm examiner, testified that both bullets were fired from the same gun, which ruled out a second shooter with a second weapon.

• 10:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  And like I said, the rifling marks on the bullets were too generic for the database to narrow down a make or model. But Caleb did say the gun missing from his car was a Springfield. So that gun was not ruled out. It could make those rifling marks, but that's all the lab could say. Those bullets were consistent with many nine millimeter guns, not necessarily a match to Caleb's Springfield. One casing was entered into NIBIN, the ATF's National Ballistics Network. NIBIN compares casing markings against casings from other shootings and recovered guns, but the gun had not shown up in any other recorded crime. So probably not a trained assassin.

• 11:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Probably not. And they're looking for, there's a few things there. They're looking for, obviously, the rifling, as you described. They're also looking for striations. So those will be parallel lines to the, to the shell casing. Essentially, the striations will happen as the shell casing is extracted from the round. It can also occur as it's, if, if the extraction hook that pulls the, the shell casing out after it's fired, it can cause a mark there. And then you're looking for the firing pin indentations. So you'll have a little bit of like a firing pin on the back where the primer is that causes the bullet to go off. Those fire pins are usually unique to the firearm that fired it as well.

• 12:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and let's, and let's say they had Caleb's weapon. They could compare.

• 12:06Derrick Levasseur?

  They absolutely could.

• 12:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  They could shoot a bullet out of the gun if they, and they could say this, this

• 12:11Derrick Levasseur?

  With a high degree of certainty.

• 12:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bullet absolutely came from this weapon with a high degree of certainty. Yeah, but they don't have the gun.

• 12:18Derrick Levasseur?

  They use a magnification. They did, literally will take a side by side, kind of like you and I are on the screen right now.

• 12:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Match them up, yeah.

• 12:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, they'll match it up, and then they'll show you the backside, and they'll show you how the Springfield makes this certain like rectangular firing pin indent, and it won't usually be right in the center. It'll be off to the left, off to the right, a little high, a little low, because no two are the same, right?

• 12:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's what I was going to say, like, every Springfield isn't going to have the same marks. It's like snowflakes, because they all have different wear and tear to them. They all have, yeah.

• 12:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they're made differently, they're manufactured differently, the metal might be contorted a little bit differently as it starts to like be used a couple times. So they'll be close, but when you take like the three different things, the rifling, the striations, the gun, the, the firing pin indentation, when you take all of that and you compare, and plus the caliber, right? When you have all of those things aligned, it's where the, a ballistics expert can say with a high degree of certainty that they believe that the, the round found at the crime scene was also fired from the gun they have in custody.

• 13:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so there's, there's a lot going on. If we had that weapon, it would be a lot easier to pinpoint, yes, like you said, high degree of certainty. It came from this weapon, but we don't.

• 13:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Pretty close to game over.

• 13:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which is really the only thing Caleb did right in this whole scenario.

• 13:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 13:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's the only thing he did to make it more difficult to pin this on him, but everything else he did was idiotic. So there was another issue, though. No GSR testing was done at all, not on Caleb's hands, not on his clothes, not even in the house.

• 13:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Stupid.

• 13:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Detective Sergeant Morgan was forced to acknowledge this on cross. And during the trial, BCI Agent Hammond said that gunshot residue is very fragile, and it can typically only be found during the first two hour window. So the 911 call was at 2:30 a.m. Hammond, the BCI crime scene agent, didn't arrive until around 5 a.m. Caleb went to the police station for his first interview at 4:21 a.m. Maybe investigators judged that it was too late by that time for anyone to swab him. But the state also had their own theory, which is a theory I share, and I think you do too, that the shooting had happened earlier than 2:30 based on data from Caleb's device. And we're going to talk about that because I've come up with my own timeline and my own theories.

• 14:33Derrick Levasseur?

  But it still should have been done.

• 14:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  It still should have been done, I agree, because there might be something, and they said, they said that they were very confident he had washed his hands, which I agree.

• 14:42Derrick Levasseur?

  I would agree with that. He absolutely, or wore gloves, right? But what I will tell you with GSR, it is, it is very temperamental, it's sensitive, but I've gotten GSR results after two hours, for sure. But usually we'll have like a, like a, a gang member or something where they're, they're fleeing the area and we catch up with them, and we don't give them an opportunity to wash their hands, right? So we're able to get that. Now, yeah, no doubt, if he has any brain cells, he washed his hands, but you could still have some on the sleeve, because it's harder to wash that off where

• 15:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he wasn't, here's the thing. He said, remember in the 911 call, which I also found always odd, where he's like, hold on, I'm putting on a shirt while he's talking to the 911 operator.

• 15:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, yes.

• 15:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  According to Caleb, he was only wearing boxers. He puts on a shirt during the 911 call, which also I find is weird. Like, I'm wearing boxers, I found my partner dead, shot in bed.

• 15:33Derrick Levasseur?

  You're not thinking about getting dressed.

• 15:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  I promise you, the last thing I think about is, oh, the, the paramedics are coming, I better put a shirt on.

• 15:39Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree.

• 15:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  The last thing I think, I mean, you might come in, I might not be in a state that is, you know, acceptable for visitors, but I'm not thinking about that.

• 15:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 15:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  So yes, Caleb had changed his clothes. He told the police he'd been in boxers, and then he put on shorts and a t-shirt during the 911 call. So whatever he had worn before that wasn't identified as what he had on at the time of the shooting. You still could have done a GSR in his boxers, though. I'm just saying, if he said he was, but he probably wasn't even wearing the same clothes.

• 16:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, the GSR on the boxers wouldn't work. It wouldn't work. It, it's such a small plume around the hand, you're really looking for the hand, the back of the wrist. So if he wasn't wearing a shirt, to your point, um, but what you could do is his forearm, just to see if maybe a little bit got up that way, because he should have no gunpowder residue on him at all, unless he went to the shooting range earlier that day. So any positive result of GSR on the forearm or on the wrist would still be good in my eyes.

• 16:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I'm sure when Caleb washed his hands, he made sure to go all the way up to the armpits, honestly.

• 16:42Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sure.

• 16:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Officer Roberts did collect Caleb's clothes, DNA and prints at the station, but the lab found nothing useful on that clothing apart from a presumptive blood result on his shorts, which I think is pretty useful. But additionally, the bathroom sink tested positive for blood that contained both Caleb and Ashley's DNA. So prosecutors used this to suggest cleanup and saying the washing of the hands would remove most GSR. We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back.

• 17:21Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 17:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Exactly. We'll replace a chair because it's uncomfortable, but then we'll spend another year trying to find the one acceptable position in our own bed. Doesn't make a lot of sense.

• 17:42Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 18:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, because they all look comfortable in the pictures.

• 18:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  They do. In those pictures, yeah, beautiful bedding, perfect lighting, nobody's fighting with a fitted sheet, of course it looks inviting. Now, you and I both have the Helix Midnight Lux. I've had this since, I think, 2019, maybe even sooner.

• 18:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's been a long time. I've had mine since probably 2020, 21, because I got it after we started Crime Weekly.

• 18:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I definitely have had it since COVID. I know that because I was spending a lot of time at home during that time, and I was like, I'm glad I have a comfortable bed, but love the Midnight Lux, and I knew it from the first night I slept in it. And that's why being able to experience the mattress in your own home matters. And Helix actually gives you a 365-night sleep trial. You can figure out whether the support and comfort work for you night after night, and their happy with Helix guarantee includes seamless returns and exchanges.

• 18:53Derrick Levasseur?

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• 19:08Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 19:22Derrick Levasseur?

  That's between you and your guests.

• 19:24Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 19:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So let's talk about the missing gun because of course I'm paying attention to what the people are saying about this case. I'm paying attention to what they're saying about Aaliyah Botner because I heal a little bit more every time I hear Aaliyah Botner being dragged across the coals or Caleb Flynn being dragged across the coals. Some have wondered if Aaliyah Botner may have assisted in making sure that the gun would never be found. So as I mentioned, Aaliyah is house-sitting for Pastor Jordan and there's Ring cameras at the home across the street from where she was house-sitting and it showed her car there all night. But police never searched that home, Pastor Jordan's home, or her car, and they never collected Aaliyah's

• 20:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  DNA and fingerprints. And there is something in Aaliyah's timeline that people wonder about. The night of February 15th, Aaliyah said that she was at her mother's house and she testified that she left her mother's house at around 11:45 PM. She drove from her mother's house directly back to Pastor Jordan's house and the camera footage showed her pulling in at 12:14 AM. Aaliyah testified as well that it didn't take longer than 15 minutes to drive from her mother's house to Pastor Jordan's house. Now, at first, I was like, man, I really wish, like, I know where Caleb and Ashley lived, but I really wish I knew where Aaliyah's mother lived and where Pastor Jordan lived. And because I watched the entire trial front to back, I found both of those places.

• 21:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I found both of those places and I was able to put them into maps and kind of figure out how long it would take to get from one place to the other. So from the testimony, we know the street that Aaliyah's mother lived on in Tip City. We also know the street that Pastor Jordan lived on in Vandalia, Ohio, and we know where Caleb Flynn lived. So let's go over the timeline quickly. 11:20 PM was the last activity on Ashley Flynn's phone. 12:45 AM was Caleb's last message to Aaliyah and by his own account, that is also when Ashley sent him to the couch to sleep. Between 1:01 and 1:02 AM, Caleb uninstalled GroupMe and Instagram from his phone. At 1:06

• 21:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  AM, he plugged his phone in and between 1:19 and 1:56 AM is when we see these bursts of steps being logged on Caleb's Apple Watch, a total of 91 steps in that time period. And then there was another 105 steps logged on the Apple Watch between 2:18 and 2:28 AM. 105 steps in 10 minutes.

• 22:11Derrick Levasseur?

  See, and I think at that point, Ashley's already gone because if they're on good terms, which from what we understand they were, she would have gotten up and been like, hey, are you okay? Why are you open the garage door? Why are you moving the fridge a little bit? What are you doing? All these things would have raised her suspicions. So this had to be done. All this burst of steps is after whatever happened to Ashley, right? After killing her.

• 22:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe. So I, like I said, I have a theory, but your theory could also work. Okay? So I've thought about them both.

• 22:40Derrick Levasseur?

  We may never know the truth on this part because there was only one other adult there.

• 22:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  We also have three heart rate readings from Caleb's Apple Watch, one at 10:50 PM on February 15th, one at 1:33 AM on February 16th, and one at 2:10 AM on February 16th. Now, my question was, why is there a gap of almost three hours from 10:50 PM until 1:33 AM? I could not find an instance where any witness during the trial explained this, but looking into the Apple Watch itself, we might find some answers. In normal use, the watch takes background heart rate readings every few minutes and less often when you're not moving as much. It records far more often during workouts or when the heart rate app is open. So long gaps are to be expected. Also, with wrist detection on, the watch stops taking readings when it's off the wrist.

• 23:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if Caleb took the watch off for a while, which I suspect he didn't, I'm going to tell you why in a minute, if he took it off for a while, there would be no readings for that stretch. Now, his watch was later found on the kitchen counter when the police got there, but we don't know when he took it off. It's also possible that Caleb's watch did take more readings than are being presented in court, but the state focused on those three because they were higher than normal readings. Okay? Like a spike in the heart rate, even though they never told us what Caleb's heart rate was at the time. Now, let's talk about Ashley Flynn because no one was able to establish an exact time of death for Ashley. Dr. Brian Casto, the coroner, testified that

• 24:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  time of death is best determined by someone at the scene. And this is bothering me because the paramedic, Alex Hules, who first examined Ashley at 2:42 AM, judged her death as being recent, but he didn't say when recent, like a few minutes, an hour, over an hour. But remember that body cam footage we watched when the police officer who was suspicious of Caleb walked over to the ambulance and questioned Alex Hules about Ashley's time of death? This police officer said, I know you're not certified, and then proceeded to ask Alex Hules how long he believed Ashley had been dead for because it looked as if she had been gone for a while. So this police officer is saying, I don't know if this guy is telling the truth. It's 2:30 AM,

• 24:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  she's shot, he's calling 911, and then, but when I show up here, not long after, to me, there's something about her that looks like this wasn't a fresh death. Like, maybe it's been longer than 2:30, right?

• 25:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Yeah. The sergeant says it right on camera. It looks like she's been there a while.

• 25:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly. So the police officer saying to the paramedic, I mean, saying like, I know you're not certified, meaning most likely Alex Hules was not qualified to give a forensic time of death estimate. Paramedics are trained to assess whether someone is alive and then to pronounce death when it's obvious, like, there's no pulse. So the officer was asking for an informal, off-the-record gut read. During the trial, Alex Hules testified that Ashley Flynn was pale when he saw her and he did not remember her body giving off warmth. On cross, Hules said that he did have a conversation with the police officer during which he expressed his opinion that Ashley had not been dead for hours. Okay? So that's giving a kind of, that's the biggest

• 25:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  window Alex Hules would give. And I cannot for the life of me, when you ask the coroner, who's doing an autopsy, what's the time of death? Well, that's better to be determined at the scene. Well, who the hell's going to determine it at the scene if the paramedics aren't certified to give a forensic time of death? Who's supposed to be doing this? Who's supposed to be doing this time of death thing and checking for like body temperature and rigor and lividity and things like that?

• 26:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, the medical examiner should be out there, right? The coroner, they should be out there, obviously, as soon as possible. And as far as what they're describing here, especially with the sergeant saying it looks like she's been gone a while, a lot of it's just based on experience. When you have a fresh body, first and foremost, they're still warm. There's also going to be involuntary movement. Without being too graphic, you usually hear sounds and things. And then, most importantly, to me, it's the blood, right? Blood, even only out for a short period of time, exposed to the air, it starts to congeal, it starts to harden, it starts to get darker, and it dries out pretty quick, especially on a fabric. And so, especially if it's a small amount, if it's a puddle, it's not going to be dry. But if someone's shot in

• 27:04Derrick Levasseur?

  the head, you're going to expect, and it just happened, literally within 10 minutes of the phone call, right? You're going to expect, first and foremost, her to still be relatively warm to the touch. The blood would still be fresh. There wouldn't be any drying or a lot of absorption into the pillows. So there are things that you can look for. Obviously, the stages of rigor mortis, if there's any, any observations of lividity, all those things can indicate how long the person's been deceased. I don't think that the sergeant did all of that. I think just looking at her head and not touching her too much, looking around the pillow, looking at the brain matter, seeing these things like as if they've been caked on there for a little while, even if it's only been a couple hours. If it was recent, it just, you have to be there to really understand

• 27:48Derrick Levasseur?

  it, but trust me, it just looks different.

• 27:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and I think that's what this police officer was saying. Like, something about this does not look, because you have to understand, Caleb makes the call around 2:30 AM, Alex Hules, the paramedic, is examining Ashley at 2:42 AM, 12 minutes later, right?

• 28:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 28:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not a long time. And the police officer is saying, if the call was made at 2:30 and the murder happened just a few minutes before that, this is not what I would expect to see.

• 28:16Derrick Levasseur?

  You'll see, like a pillow, the blood would be bright red at that point, but at this point, if it's already kind of drying up and dark, that's not 10, 15 minutes.

• 28:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Doesn't really look like anybody made those kind of observations, though, which is kind of disturbing to me because it really matters in this case.

• 28:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Should have wrote it down. It seems like visually, the sergeant may have noticed something, but he didn't articulate what he noticed to come to that conclusion.

• 28:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. So let's go back to 2:30 AM when Caleb Flynn called 911 and said he was observing his wife within minutes of hearing two gunshots. At that time, Caleb said Ashley's face was white as a ghost. Alex Hules sees Ashley at 2:42 AM, within 15 minutes of when Ashley was allegedly shot, and he said he felt no warmth coming off of her body and she was pale. We also have BCI Special Agent Hammond, who arrived at the Flynn home around 7 AM and was present for the examination and photographing of Ashley's body at approximately 9:30 AM. Hammond testified that at that time, Ashley was in a state of rigor and blood had pulled along her left side,

• 29:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  consistent with the position she'd been found. Since Alex Hule did not mention rigor in his testimony, we can hopefully assume that it wasn't present. And rigor usually begins roughly one to two hours after death, becoming more noticeable over the next several hours and generally fully developed around six to 12 hours after death. But Hules also testified that he did not feel warmth coming off Ashley's body when he was checking her pulse and performed his exam at 2:42 AM. If Ashley was shot just before 2:30 AM and Alex Hules did not feel warmth coming from her body less than 15 minutes later, I think it's safe to say that Ashley's actual time of death was not between 2 and 2:30 AM. And knowing that Caleb definitely

• 30:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  did this, we know that he's not going to shoot her and then within five minutes or two minutes, call police, because he's going to want to make sure that he's covered tracks and figured out if there's anything that doesn't add up about the scene before he calls police.

• 30:13Derrick Levasseur?

  And by the way, when we talk about warm to the touch, it might just even be room temperature. I've felt bodies where, I don't want to say they were warm, but they definitely weren't cold. And if somebody's been gone for a while, there is a distinct difference. You feel it. I'm not saying they're ice cold, but you're like, yep, nope, this is different than what you would feel when you touch your skin right now. You know, it's very obvious.

• 30:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  What he was saying was, I don't know when she died, but it hasn't been hours. Now, when somebody says it hasn't been hours, and I'm surprised, nobody, not one of these lawyers asked him, what do you consider when you say hours? Because hours could mean two hours, it could mean five hours. So what's your perception of what hours is, Alex Hules?

• 30:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 30:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I'm going to talk about my theory based on what we know, but let's take a quick break and then we'll be right back.

• 31:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to Talkiatory for sponsoring this episode. There is a lot of mental health advice online. You watch one video about having trouble concentrating and suddenly your entire feed has an opinion about you. Personally, I'd rather have that conversation with someone qualified who actually knows my history.

• 31:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, a little more context than the comment section.

• 31:23Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 32:01Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 32:18Derrick Levasseur?

  And you continue with the same provider for consistent care over time. They get to know your history and you can build on the conversations you've already had. So you're not sitting there having to start from the foundation with a new person each and every time. That's the worst.

• 32:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  I like that the process gives you a clear place to begin. You don't have to arrive with a diagnosis or know which treatment to ask for. You can explain what's been difficult, what you've noticed, and what you'd like help understanding.

• 32:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you don't have to figure it all out at first.

• 32:42Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 33:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back. So like I said, I have my theory, and I'm basing it on what we know while also acknowledging that there's a lot of stuff we don't know, right?

• 33:20Derrick Levasseur?

  No, like I said, there's only one other person who would know what happened in that place, other than the kids I'm talking about, and one of them's deceased. Caleb's the only narrative we have coming out of there.

• 33:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and he's never gonna tell the truth. So between 1:01 and 1:07 a.m., Caleb uninstalled the apps he had used to talk to Aaliyah Botner. He uninstalled GroupMe and Instagram. He plugged in his phone and then the phone locked. To me, this reads going dark before acting. He wipes the affair from easy view, then sets the phone down where it will look idle all night, as a phone would if he were asleep.

• 33:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree with you. I'm with you right here. This is something you would do prior to the act, because you're not gonna probably remember to do it after the fact.

• 34:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he had just sent his last message to Aaliyah at like 12:45, I think. So I would hope that he's not messaging her all night, because he's messaging her back and forth quite a bit. At 12:45, that's his last message to Aaliyah, so I don't think it happened before 1:07 a.m. Now, someone in a panic after a shooting would more likely be frantic on the phone or not touch it at all. So this is planning behavior. It also fits the deleted ChatGPT and AI music apps the day before. Following that, Caleb took 18 steps, and then 18 steps, and then 34 steps in four minutes. In a one-story ranch, that's about what it would take to walk from the living room to

• 34:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  the garage, open the truck console and get the gun, and then walk back through the house to the master bedroom. In fact, I did my research again, because based on the layout of this house, and then I compared it to the layout plans of similar houses in that same neighborhood, I got the kind of like idea of how far it would be. Because remember, I said when you come in through the door that's leading from the garage, the master bedroom is directly ahead of you. So there's like a little hallway, and if you walk down the hallway, the laundry room would be to your left, the kitchen would be to your right, and then you walk down the hallway a little bit, and there, right there, is the master bedroom. I walked this myself.

• 35:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  It took exactly 17 steps to, well, it took about 13 steps to walk to where the door of the garage would be, and then another few steps to walk to the truck, which was parked in the garage, right there. So now he's taking the 18 steps. He walks back into the house, but I estimate that it would have taken almost exactly 18 steps to walk from the master bedroom to the Ford F-150 parked in the garage. 1:19 a.m., 18 steps walking to the truck. 1:22 a.m., 18 steps walking back into the house.

• 35:58Derrick Levasseur?

  And let's pause it right there. Wherever he was going, to your point, it's the same amount of steps.

• 36:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly.

• 36:04Derrick Levasseur?

  So it's more than likely, starting at one point, going to a destination, and returning to that said point.

• 36:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 36:10Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's a reasonable conclusion.

• 36:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  But then remember, there's 34 steps after that second 18 steps. So I was like, what is that? What is that? Well, here's what I think happened. 18 steps to the truck, 18 steps back to the master bedroom where Caleb pauses in front of the door to the master bedroom to make sure that Ashley is still asleep. Her position hadn't moved, okay? Because he gets there at 1:22 a.m. He takes those 18 steps at 1:22, and then at 1:23 a.m., there's 34 steps. And I think that was Caleb walking further into the house to the room of his daughters to check and make sure they had not moved and to possibly close the door to their bedroom before returning to the master bedroom. The burst, right?

• 36:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the burst of steps ended at 1:23 a.m., which is, I believe, when the shots were fired, at 1:23 a.m. Ashley was asleep on her side with her arm under her head, two quick shots from close range, then Caleb stood still, and at 1:33 a.m., his heart rate was recorded. Between 1:52 and 1:56 a.m., Caleb took 21 steps, a short, contained burst that I would guess is a small cleanup phase. Walking to the master bathroom sink, where the drain tested presumptive for blood with both Caleb and Ashley's DNA. He possibly turned on the bedroom light at this point, leaving a bloody smear with his DNA. And then at 2:10 a.m., another heart rate reading. And then between 2:17 and 2:30 a.m., we have the staging phase.

• 37:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's where everything's going on. 2:17 a.m., the AirPods connected to Caleb's iPhone, which is still plugged in and locked. 2:18 a.m., Caleb's busiest stretch of the night begins. 105 steps, enough to go out to the garage, damage the side door from the inside, leave it open, and then go somewhere to dispose of or hide the gun. But then I said to myself, Stephanie Self, what if that was all a ruse? What if Caleb knew very well that he was wearing his Apple Watch and that his steps would be tracked and that those steps may be a red herring? If he was careful enough to put his phone down and plug it in and make sure that he wasn't holding it so that it would appear that he was asleep, what if he intentionally

• 38:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  left his Apple Watch on? What if Caleb and Aaliyah, when they talked in person on February 14th, remember at CLC? Because this wouldn't have been in messaging, when they talked in person on February 14th. What if they'd come up with a plan to make sure that the murder weapon could not be found anywhere near the Flynn home or anywhere at all? What if their messages from the evening of February 15th were all also part of that ruse? Talking about divorce and getting a burner phone and keeping Aaliyah updated the following day when Caleb talked to Ashley's parents? What if Ashley were killed earlier than 1:30 a.m., maybe around 11:45 p.m. or midnight? And what if Caleb and Aaliyah had prearranged that Caleb would shoot Ashley and then leave the gun somewhere outside the home where she could swing by after leaving her mother's

• 39:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  house, retrieve the gun, and return to Pastor Jordan's house by 12:14 a.m.? So I'm gonna put up on the screen, or I'm gonna have Shannon put up on the screen, a Google Earth view of the Flynn house, which you can see. The house backs into a bunch of open, unwatched farmland and fields with roads nearby. So there's gonna be cameras in the neighborhood, but all of those fields behind the house, there's not gonna be anybody watching or looking into that. So theoretically, if Caleb had shot Ashley earlier than 1:30 a.m., he would have known to not wear his Apple Watch, which is why we don't see any heart rate readings, why we don't see any steps. He could have walked out into those fields to a predetermined spot by a road coming

• 39:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  off the highway that had no camera, and no camera in the neighborhood would have picked it up, and it would have been waiting for Aaliyah to ghost it away with no one being the wiser. It's only 2.4 miles from Aaliyah's mother's house to the Flynn home. This is an approximately seven-minute drive, maybe less on a Sunday night right before midnight. So she left her mother's house at 11:45 p.m. That puts her near the Flynn home by 11:52 p.m. From the Flynn home to Pastor Jordan's house, another nine miles, roughly a 15-minute drive, which works with the timeline of Aaliyah pulling into Pastor Jordan's house at 12:14 a.m. If she drove right from her mother's house to Pastor Jordan's house, Aaliyah would have been back before or close to midnight. So you would think that this could easily be answered by going through Aaliyah's cellphone.

• 40:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Did she go anywhere that night? Was her phone off for a period of time where it wasn't collecting location data, which would look suspicious? But here's what you need to know about Aaliyah Botner and the police investigation. Investigators did check at least one of Aaliyah's phones in detail, but according to her own testimony, they never took her burner phone. One phone was collected from her, but there's a warrant that a detective wrote up, which was serving warrants on three cell phones belonging to Aaliyah. Information I have does not say why there were three phones. I'm thinking it may include the phone that she reported losing in Florida in January, plus her burner phone, plus the replacement phone she got a month before it would be confiscated for the police investigation.

• 41:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she only had it a month. Aaliyah testified that she had bought a prepaid phone at Target after her regular phone became disabled because it went in the water in Florida. But the police did not take that burner phone and she continued to use it. We know what was checked on Aaliyah's replacement iPhone that she only had for a month, at least what has been reported during the trial to have been checked, her browsing history, her Instagram, and also her steps from February 16th. Now, no trial coverage says investigators got the burner phone's carrier records or location data through a warrant. If they did, it hasn't been reported. And the defense was really grilling Aaliyah about this burner phone, being like, hey, why'd you talk to the FBI? And they asked you for your phone and you had your burner phone, but you didn't give it to them? You know, stuff like that.

• 42:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it doesn't sound like the police ever took the burner phone.

• 42:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's fair.

• 42:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  BCI Agent Joseph Wilhelm testified that the first steps Aaliyah logged on her iPhone on February 16th corresponded with the time she returned to Pastor Jordan's house. And after that, there were no steps until 9:30 a.m. So it appears she was using both the new iPhone and the burner phone at the same time. But when her new iPhone was analyzed, it was only a month old. So there wasn't much on it. And like I said, they never took her burner phone. In fact, all the messages that they would recover between Caleb and Aaliyah came from Caleb's device because Aaliyah was obviously way better at covering her tracks.

• 42:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 42:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right?

• 42:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she was teaching him.

• 42:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she was worried that Caleb would leave all this stuff on his phone. And I guess her worries were valid at this point.

• 42:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 42:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And here's something that should definitely be hard for most of us to wrap our heads around. On the same day that Ashley Flynn was killed, both Caleb Flynn and Aaliyah Botner were at Ashley's parents' home. So we're going to talk about that. But after Caleb's 4:28 a.m. interview at the Tibbs City Police Station, he was free to leave. At 7:50 a.m., Aaliyah sent Caleb a text message from her burner phone.

• 43:14Speaker 02

  Hey, I know you said not to text first, but real quick, when you get the burner, you will have to text this number. And I gave him my burner number, not my normal one. I still have my burner, so it's complicated. I can only receive iMessages with my old number.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  And that was sent at 7:50 a.m. on February 16?

• 43:33Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  And you deleted that message later?

• 43:38Speaker 02

  I did.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  Okay, so what's the next message?

• 43:41Speaker 02

  I said, let me know when you've received this. I won't text on here anymore.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  And that message was also deleted?

• 43:49Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 43:51Speaker 03

  Next message?

• 43:52Speaker 02

  The next message was, Caleb, I just saw the news. Someone told me to pray for Mrs. Flynn. In all caps, what is going on right now? Were you behind this? I deleted that message. I said, what is going on? Is this real?

• 44:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so that, that little video there, you could take it a couple of ways. It's just the whole thing is very suspicious, just the way she's deleting everything. That's on one hand. On the other hand, you could say if she's part of everything, why would she accuse him of being responsible for it? If you're in it together, it would just be, hey, why did you do? What, what's happening? Talk to me. It wouldn't be, are you behind this? That seems like calling someone out right off the rip. But again, if it's, I know we're going to get into it. I'm going to respond to what you said earlier. But if it's all a ruse, maybe this is still part of that act.

• 44:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and I mean, also consider like, okay, you sent him a message at 7:50, like when you get the burner phone, text this. Like you still think Ashley's alive. You still think there's a divorce happening. You're still trying to protect yourself from divorce court. But now you, you get them, the call. So what Aaliyah testified to was that she received a call around 8 a.m. on the morning of February 16th, 2026. And this call was from someone at CLC. And they were asking Aaliyah if she'd heard what happened to Ashley Flynn. So the first messages that Aaliyah sent to Caleb that morning were before that call. And then she texted him again after she found out about Ashley. And then she's like, did you do this, right? But she deleted that one too. You know, so.

• 45:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she deleted everything. It doesn't look good.

• 45:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Caleb didn't respond to those text messages because he's, you know, in the police station, but Aaliyah.

• 45:29Derrick Levasseur?

  He's like, what are you doing? This wasn't our plan? No, I'm just kidding.

• 45:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he's like, and maybe the cop has his phone like looking at it.

• 45:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, imagine.

• 45:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Aaliyah did decide though, that it would be an awesome idea to leave Pastor Jordan's house and drive over to the home of Todd and Jill Smith, Ashley's parents.

• 45:45Speaker 03

  Prior to yesterday, when did you last see the defendant in person?

• 45:49Speaker 02

  Prior to yesterday? The February 16th?

• 45:53Speaker 03

  Where?

• 45:54Speaker 02

  At the Smith's house.

• 45:56Speaker 03

  Is that where we saw you leaving the Hammonds' house to head to?

• 46:02Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:02Speaker 03

  Why did you go to the Smiths?

• 46:04Speaker 02

  Because that morning I called my boss. He said he was there and that it would be a good idea for me to come over there too, because all the staff was there for the Flynn's and the, and the Smiths.

• 46:16Speaker 03

  What did the defendant tell you about the early morning hours of February 16th, 2025, when we were at the Smiths' house?

• 46:23Speaker 02

  When I walked in, he didn't see me at first. He came over and hugged me. And then the first thing he said to me was, it didn't happen the way we thought it would, did it?

• 46:35Speaker 03

  What else did he tell you?

• 46:37Speaker 02

  And I, I said, Caleb, how? How did this happen? Do you not have cameras in your house? How did you not know someone was breaking into your house? I was asking him just a lot of questions and really wondering how this happened. And I was just very suspicious.

• 46:54Speaker 03

  How did he tell you it happened?

• 46:56Speaker 02

  He said he was sleeping on the couch because he always told me he never slept in bed with her. He said he was sleeping on the couch.

• 47:04Speaker 02

  That he woke up the first time from the dog shivering. And he thought it was weird, but then he went back to sleep. And then the second time he woke up was from a gunshot. He said that he ran straight to the garage door, saw that it was wide open, and then went into, looked into Ashley's room. And he said he saw blood everywhere. And he said he'll never forget that sight.

• 47:25Speaker 03

  Where did he tell you he woke up sleeping drunk that second time?

• 47:29Speaker 02

  The couch.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  You had sent a message to Caleb asking if he was behind what you had learned happened to Ashley?

• 47:38Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  You then go to the Smiths' house

• 47:43Speaker 04

  with several other members of the church?

• 47:46Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 47:47Speaker 04

  Why go to the Smiths' house?

• 47:50Speaker 02

  Because I didn't want to look suspicious and because my boss asked me to come over. I didn't want anything to, I just wanted to act as normal as possible. Like act like an affair didn't happen. Act like you're living as if the affair never happened. And that's what I would have done if the affair didn't happen.

• 48:11Speaker 04

  So at that time, you were suspicious of Caleb?

• 48:15Speaker 02

  I was.

• 48:16Speaker 04

  And you still went to the Smiths' house?

• 48:18Speaker 02

  I wanted to believe he didn't do it, but yes, I did.

• 48:21Speaker 04

  And then for days after, you don't tell anybody about your suspicions?

• 48:26Speaker 02

  No.

• 48:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we have a lot to talk about and we have to continue my theory. But let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

• 48:38Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 48:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you're on autopilot.

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• 49:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you guys have seen it a million times on Crime Weekly. Now, if you're watching on video, it's got real wood, real metal. Like Stephanie said, it's got the magnets, which I love. It's also got the little twisty sound as well. So as a fidget device, it's awesome. And, and like Stephanie has already said in numerous times, there's nothing to charge, which I appreciate because between your phone, your headphones and everything else in my life, finding the available charging cable, it becomes a project of itself.

• 49:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Fume focuses on the physical routine, the reaching, the hand-to-mouth motion, having something to hold. It gives you a different option for those moments when you want to change what you're reaching for. And that wood and metal construction is part of the whole experience, that elevated experience. The feel of something matters when you're going to keep it nearby and handle it throughout the day.

• 50:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and they have mint options, which I really like, which is a good place to start if you're looking for something crisp. And we've said this before, right? It's a flavored air. So think of it as its own experience. It's like nothing else you're going to try.

• 50:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they've got a tart raspberry. They've got an orange creamsicle flavor. I'm seeing the ones that I like. But yeah, they, they are absolutely great tasting. And I like the idea of paying attention to the routine itself. What are you reaching for? What do you tend to reach for? And what would you like to do with that moment instead? So you can keep Fume at your desk or bring it along. There's no battery level to keep checking. Target the habit with Fume today and use our code CRIMEWEEKLY and get a free bite-friendly silicone topper for your Fume device. More than 1 million people have already chosen Fume to quit differently. The only question is whether you're ready to take that first step. Remember, addiction is really good at saying later, but don't let it. Head to tryfume.com/crimeweekly.

• 50:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's T R Y F U M dot com slash crime weekly and use code CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout to get your free Fume topper.

• 51:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, we're back. So here's the thing. We have testimony from the forensics people that Aaliyah's steps picked back up on the morning of February 16th at around 9:30 a.m. And we have her on camera leaving Pastor Jordan's house at 9:57 a.m. to drive to the Smith's house. But we can see from her texts that she was awake much earlier than 9:30 a.m. Right? Because she starts talking to Caleb at 7:50 a.m. So someone awake texting and getting ready to leave would normally log at least some steps. If you're in bed at 7:50 texting, you're not getting out of bed till 9:30. I don't know about that.

• 51:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  But zero steps until 9:30 suggests that Aaliyah's iPhone wasn't on her for part of that morning. She may have left it on a nightstand or a charger and was using her burner instead. Because we know she texted Caleb from her burner phone. So with two phones, we don't really have a complete picture of Aaliyah Botner's movements. The phone that was analyzed by the police was only a month old. And the one that wasn't could have held some information had they analyzed it. Or maybe Aaliyah really did go to Pastor Jordan's, go to sleep and wake up to this horrific news. And maybe Caleb walked out into the fields behind the house and disposed of the gun himself. And that's part of the 100 steps with no plan to have someone else swing by to retrieve it.

• 52:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because during cross-examination Detective Sergeant Mike Morgan admitted that no one had really checked the fields behind the neighborhood. Even though Agent David McMullin with an ATF gun detection dog testified that for over two days, the dog covered the house, yard, sheds, the wood line, a footpath in part of a farm field. And there's like four big fields behind the house. So I think what happened here is that the dog covered a portion of one field, probably the edge nearest the house and along that wood line. But no one did a systematic foot by foot search of the open farmland behind the subdivision. But yes, that's, that's my theory. And a lot of people point to the timeline of Pastor Jordan's house. Aaliyah's not back there till 12:14.

• 53:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  She says she left her mother's at 11:45, which gives roughly over 15 minutes of where were you? What are you doing? Especially at midnight on a Sunday night, there's not going to be a ton of traffic. Is it possible that Aaliyah was an assistant in helping to conceal this weapon? Because it hasn't been found? Or is it just maybe the police didn't do a thorough search? So the gun might be out there in one of those fields somewhere still?

• 53:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, lot to unpack here. And I want to skip over a lot of where we agree up to with the steps. You know, listen, here's what I'll say to start. With the relationship between Aaliyah and Caleb. If a detective at all has half a brain, when they discover this information, they're going to reverse engineer and try to see if she could be involved in the way that you described. Because it would make sense, right? They're in this together, they want to be together. There could have been a conversation that happened via phone or in person where they decided this was the best way. And so for her to be involved, it wouldn't be a stretch. But we also have to acknowledge the fact that Aaliyah is not a good person. And we're not fans of her over here at Crime Weekly.

• 54:27Derrick Levasseur?

  And from the responses on the first episode, you guys are not either. But going from an adulterer to a murderer is a big jump. And it's a big accusation. So we have to approach it with the care.

• 54:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  On not making an accusation, that's why I said it's a theory.

• 54:40Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a theory, but it's, it's, it's an alligator, it's, it's a thought, right? And she is innocent, we're acknowledging that to qualify. She hasn't been charged with anything. So with that understanding, if I'm approaching this from the perspective of detectives are going to look into Aaliyah after discovering the affair. Here are some things that I think pose issues with your theory. Although the phone would be a problem because you wouldn't have the GPS coordinates. As you put out there, she would need a means of transportation. And so there's only a certain number of vehicles at that location. And what I would do would be to get those vehicles and get their, their black box data,

• 55:22Derrick Levasseur?

  their, their ECU data to find out if the ignitions were turned on for any of those vehicles during that timeframe.

• 55:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  But they didn't do that.

• 55:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, so we know for certain they have not done that.

• 55:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  They did not search Pastor Jordan's house. They didn't search Aaliyah's car that was brought up during testimony. They never took her car, no.

• 55:40Derrick Levasseur?

  So here's what I'm saying you would do. And if, and if it comes out that none of this was ever done, because I will say, I don't know the case, I'm not defending law enforcement here. But there are instances, and this is wrong by the way, where they'll do something and it won't lead anywhere and they don't report it, which we've talked about a million times. I'm not going to spend the time here. You know, if you don't, if you don't document it, it didn't happen. However.

• 56:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  The defense testified to that. So if they were saying inaccurate things, I'm sure the prosecution or the state would have been like objection. We did, we did check her car actually, but the, the defense was like, you know, grilling Aaliyah and also police officers, did you go through Aaliyah's car? Did you take her car? Did you search it? No, no, no.

• 56:23Derrick Levasseur?

  So what I would do is I would go to the black boxes of these vehicles. I would determine any key logs, I would determine any distances, if the brakes were used, if the gas pedal was administered, anything like that. I would also go like they did for Caleb's house where you have those different colored areas. I would have gone to each individual home, not only in front of the, of their, of the home that she was staying at, but also the, the route that you would take to get there. And identify any cameras, whether they're ring cameras, whether they're security cameras, whether they're traffic cameras, whatever you could to determine whether or not a vehicle left that area during that time. That would be two things. And then obviously you would like to have the GPS, but you could easily say that they left the phone at home.

• 57:06Derrick Levasseur?

  For me, without that information, and you're pointing out that they never did it. What I think is more likely, based on her reactions and some of the things she said, and I do have one more thing to say about Aaliyah. I think to me, it's, it's more likely, more likely that those steps that you were referring to, the, the, the larger amount of steps after the shooting would have been him going outside, putting that gun into a plastic bag or something to be stored somewhere under the assumption that eventually police are going to leave. And once they do, he would be able to go and retrieve that gun and then dispose of it properly into a dumpster along a road or whatever. Because he's assuming, you know, I'm not going to be brought into custody immediately. And he wasn't.

• 57:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm a great actor, I'm a great actor. I mean, he was brought in, he was brought in to custody that, that morning.

• 57:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I know that, but what I'm saying is as far as he was brought in for interviews, he wasn't taken into custody.

• 58:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, he wasn't arrested.

• 58:01Derrick Levasseur?

  So my point being, he would have been released, which would have been the thought. He would have gone home and he would have been able to go get the gun and dispose of it in a way where maybe he buries it, who knows? But he's not going to have the time to do all that right then and there. And then the final thing I would say, and there's two ways you could look at this. And it's, it's all depends on perspective, right? On one hand, Aaliyah is really burying Caleb with her testimony. She's really going hard for him. And you could easily say, and I'd have no argument, she's doing it because she's separating herself from him and she doesn't want to be associated with it. And the plan was to do it together. And now that he's going down for it, she's going to bury him even more.

• 58:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Conversely, I would say with Aaliyah giving this damaging testimony, saying the things like, this isn't the way we wanted it, but it had, you know, all that, all these little.

• 58:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb said, yeah, it didn't happen the way we thought it would.

• 58:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, these are things that she doesn't need to put out there. She doesn't need to divulge. And I don't think she would if she was part of it. Because every word she says, she runs the risk that she could trigger him. And he's going to go, you know what? She was in on it and he could give them all the details.

• 59:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  But then he would have to admit to being a part of the murder himself. So indirectly Caleb is exactly doing that. His defense is using Aaliyah as the alternate theory, the alternate suspect. In the way, the best way Caleb can without coming right out and saying, yeah, actually, I know I've been saying I'm innocent and I didn't do this and I've been crying this whole trial. But actually, yeah, I did kill my wife, but hey, she helped me. You're still going to go to prison, right? But this way, he can try to put the blame on her and shift it to her without also admitting to being a part of the crime himself, which he does not want to do. That is the most important thing to him, that he is not viewed as a person who killed his wife. That is the most important thing to him.

• 59:54Derrick Levasseur?

  And then the final thing that I would say, and this is giving maybe Aaliyah more credit than deserved, is this is a, a young woman who wanted her partner, right? Caleb to leave his wife. She wanted him to leave his wife. She didn't care how he did it. She wanted to be together. She wanted him to get a divorce. She said it multiple times. And I don't think, based on the text messages, even though there, I've acknowledged with you, there were a lot in there that it's like, man, in hindsight, they look really bad. They look really rough. But there were also times where she said, I'm not, I don't want you to kill her, Caleb. I just want you to leave, like be a man, grow some balls. Tell her you're not in love with her anymore. Get a divorce, right?

• 1:00:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Like, we may not agree with that from a personal perspective, like your own opinions on this relationship. But I think she would have been more than content with him getting a divorce and then being together publicly. If he came to her and said, I think I got to kill her. I feel like she would have pushed back on that and said, no, no, no, I don't want you going to that extreme. I just don't want you-

• 1:00:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, he did. He did say that.

• 1:01:00Derrick Levasseur?

  He said he wanted to kill her multiple times. I get it. I just think it's important for us to play both sides here because it is a big leap and you know, I haven't seen anything compelling enough yet. And that may be because investigators didn't dig deep enough on that angle like you're, like you're putting out there. That could be the reason why I feel that way. But based on what we know, it sounds like, like Caleb was the sole operator in this case. And he felt like, I'm gonna kill her. I'm gonna come out looking like the victim. I'm gonna get to keep all the financial benefits that I want, but I'm also gonna be able to be with the woman that I love. And she's not gonna ever know that I was a killer. She's gonna think I was a good person. And maybe she'll even be more sympathetic and more in love with me because of the tragedy that I went through.

• 1:01:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  She'll be happier, right? Because this is what she wanted. She didn't want me to have anything to do with Ashley after the divorce. So maybe she'll be hap- yeah.

• 1:01:52Derrick Levasseur?

  And also, what else has this accomplished, Stephanie?

• 1:01:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, now he can still look like the good guy. Maybe he keeps his job. Maybe the Smiths are like-

• 1:01:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, but also what else? We're missing one thing here.

• 1:02:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  How he looks to the community, the church-

• 1:02:03Derrick Levasseur?

  He gets to be the woman he loves. And what? He gets to keep his kids.

• 1:02:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Now they can raise their family together. He gets, he gets the, the job, the money, the house, the kids, and he gets to take out Ashley and substitute her for Aaliyah. That's what I think goes on in his mind.

• 1:02:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Swap out women here.

• 1:02:21Derrick Levasseur?

  This by, by Ashley being off the board-

• 1:02:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  My life isn't gonna really have to change at all, is it? Right? Yeah.

• 1:02:27Derrick Levasseur?

  They could, they could still live in the same house. This sick would have done that probably.

• 1:02:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Eventually, we'll let six months go by and then we'll say that Aaliyah was comforting me and we fell in love and through God and healing, we found our shared purpose in life and the girls loved her. So, you know, she's moving on.

• 1:02:43Derrick Levasseur?

  And now the girls will, will grow up loving Aaliyah because she'll be there to replace her and be that motherly figure. And he can do this all while still looking like a victim to everyone involved.

• 1:02:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Also looking like the hero and the victim, yeah.

• 1:02:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. And that's, that's where I'm at. Now, I'll tell you right now, the fact that they didn't get those, those vehicle records, that did, that data, that black box data, the, the electronic control module data, that's a big mess up because that could have really helped Aaliyah out. Because if you, if you have two vehicles there, we'll just see for this, this story, there's two vehicles at that location. None of those vehicles get turned on during that timeframe. Now your theory becomes less likely, right? Because she didn't, she didn't, she didn't run there. I don't, I would assume, although I guess that's possible as well.

• 1:03:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, she was driving from her mom's house to Pastor Jordan's house. But like I said, there is missing time. That's the drive she made. So we'd be able to see from something in the car, did she make a stop?

• 1:03:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. Yep. How long was the vehicle stopped in that location? How, was the vehicle still running? Was it in idle?

• 1:03:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Was the vehicle stopped in a location by a field behind Caleb's house? There'd be no reason for her to be there.

• 1:03:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. But even if you don't have the GPS, if you have the vehicle being stopped for five or 10 minutes while running, what were you doing?

• 1:03:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Grabbing a gun out of a field.

• 1:03:58Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go. That becomes the question where you're sitting down and go, what were you doing for five or 10 minutes? You weren't at a traffic light. You weren't at a stop sign. Where were you? Because we're gonna go check it.

• 1:04:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we'll, we'll put a pin in that. It is possible people are talking about it.

• 1:04:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Let us know what you guys think as well, because you know, I, we're, Stephanie's not the only one putting this theory out there. I've seen it everywhere.

• 1:04:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a relevant thing to wonder, right? Because-

• 1:04:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Based on those text messages, I, I agree with you.

• 1:04:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Based on those text messages and also Aaliyah's behavior when she finds out and in the time that follows, right? Because back to Caleb and Aaliyah thinking that it was a good idea for them both to go to the Smith home, hours after Jill and Todd had received the news that their beloved daughter was gone forever. I think this is gross, number one. She's like, I didn't want to be suspicious. I wanted to behave in a way like as if the affair had never happened. But you also just said you think that he killed her. That, that was your first thought when you heard the news. Though your first thought was Caleb, did you do this? So at that point, I'm not going to the Smith's house. And when the police come calling, which they surely will, I'll be like, yeah, from the minute I freaking heard this news, I thought this dude did it. And I didn't want to show up there. I don't want to have anything to do with him.

• 1:05:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, could that be part of it though, too, where she's like, holy shit, he killed this woman and I'm the reason why? Like, couldn't that be a human reaction where you're like-

• 1:05:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  I wanted to believe he didn't do it.

• 1:05:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. But I also think there's like a self-preservation thing.

• 1:05:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  You also wanted to believe he was walking around his house, not talking to his wife at all. But we know that wasn't true, Aaliyah, and you knew that wasn't true. So, you know? But I think the issue here is pretty evident. Caleb and Aaliyah had been talking about wanting Ashley dead for over a year. That, that's the least. We don't know what they were saying before that because we don't have access to those messages. At least a year, they were talking about wanting Ashley dead. Caleb told Aaliyah he was going to be free on February 16th. And on February 16th, Aaliyah woke up to the news that Ashley was dead. Of course, she would suspect Caleb. Of course, her first thought would be that he had killed his wife. She even says she questioned him about the believability of his version of events. And yet, Aaliyah never took her free will and her instinct and her concerns and went to

• 1:06:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  the police. And when the FBI came calling on her on February 20th, she still didn't express her suspicions. In fact, she outright lied. FBI Special Agent Sarah Daimron and Dayton Police Detective Zachary Farkas found Aaliyah at her mother's home on February 20th.

• 1:06:26Speaker 05

  Was Aaliyah truthful during your interview with her on February 20th, 2026?

• 1:06:30Speaker 06

  Aaliyah originally was not truthful during the initial portion of our interview. Originally, she denied having a relationship with Caleb Flynn.

• 1:06:39Speaker 05

  Any relationship?

• 1:06:40Speaker 06

  She denied having a sexual relationship or an intimate relationship with Caleb Flynn.

• 1:06:45Speaker 05

  Did you already know that she was being untruthful to you?

• 1:06:49Speaker 06

  Yes. We had a text message that had been acquired from Ashley's cell phone that had indicated that there was not a, that there was a contentious relationship between her and Ashley. As the interview progressed, she did open up about the text message and the source of contention between her and Ashley. However, she described their relationship as cordial. We had completed an interview prior to that of a friend of Ashley's who had stated that she had confided in her about a potential, potential infidelity between Caleb and Ashley.

• 1:07:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So a contentious relationship is how apparently Ashley described her relationship with Aaliyah Botner to a friend. And, and Aaliyah was like, no, it wasn't contentious. Like, it was cordial, right? What happened between Aaliyah and Ashley that we don't know about is what I would like to know. And we would know if Aaliyah was the one on trial, because whatever Ashley said about Aaliyah and who she said it to would be public record from the trial. But because Aaliyah's not on trial, we don't know exactly why Ashley thought the relationship between herself and Aaliyah was so contentious. But here's what I want to say. This was no longer just like, hey, this woman is sleeping with my husband. Ashley was like, it's contentious

• 1:08:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  between Aaliyah and myself. So what exactly happened? Was there some sort of confrontation that we don't know about because Aaliyah hasn't testified to it? And we don't know what was in Ashley's phone? I'd be very curious about that. So Ashley had confided in a friend. She deeply suspected that something was going on between Caleb and Aaliyah. And when Aaliyah talked to the FBI on February 20th, she lied about her relationship with Caleb. And in the days before she met with the FBI, Aaliyah also made several internet searches. On February 17th, Aaliyah searched up stories of wife being murdered and no suspect found. On February 19th, she searched homicides in America that still remain unsolved and most recent homicides

• 1:08:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  in America that still remain unsolved. And within that same time period, Aaliyah performed several internet searches for her own name and Ashley Flynn's name. So I think that's a guilty conscience. I don't know. Like, why are you searching up Aaliyah Botner and Ashley Flynn on the internet? Like, by the way, why does anybody ever do this? Like, the police are talking to the media about things happening in the first day or two of an investigation? Like, the police are going to the media and being like, we think Caleb Flynn killed his wife and we think that mistress, Aaliyah Botner, was in on it. Like, why are you searching up your name and Ashley's name? This is a girl who was so careful about things being found and she's just performing these weird suspicious internet searches in the days after Ashley's killed.

• 1:09:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm trying not to sound like too much of a, of an Aaliyah defender, but I think I have to play that role in this particular series because of some of the theories that you've put forward. So I gotta, I gotta take the other side. And I'll go back to what I was saying earlier. She has a very guilty conscience, as you just put out. But what she's guilt, feeling guilty about is the big question. Does she feel guilty because she knows how much she pressured Caleb to get out of this and how she played, she went along with calling her douche and saying all these things and seeing how much she hated her? And I want her gone? Like, she knows everything she, that she said. And she's now saying to herself, wow, I really contributed to this whole thing. I'm, I'm a major part of this.

• 1:10:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and if Caleb did do this, there's going to be an investigation. This is going to be found out. And I'm not, I'm not gonna look good.

• 1:10:35Derrick Levasseur?

  It's gonna look bad for me. I could be, I could be tied to a murder, but at minimum, the community's gonna know about this. They're gonna absolutely hate me. All the things I said about this dead woman is gonna come out. And this psycho potentially killed his wife and I'm the main reason for it. So I think some could make an argument that she was doing this because she knew that was about to roll downhill and that it was a matter of time before something broke because agents were on it and they were looking into everything. And as good of a job she did-

• 1:11:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you also know, people at the church were probably talking, right?

• 1:11:10Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. You don't think anybody knew that they were sleeping together?

• 1:11:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dude, I know church people, okay?

• 1:11:15Derrick Levasseur?

  They knew.

• 1:11:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Church people act like, oh, thou shalt not gossip. They love to gossip. So first of all, there's rumors Aaliyah and Caleb have been sleeping together. Now Ashley's dead. And you know, people were like, he, he could have done it. He could have definitely done it.

• 1:11:31Derrick Levasseur?

  I wouldn't even doubt it if he and her, I don't know who, but maybe both, had confided in a friend or two and let them know, like, we're sleeping together, we're gonna be together. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we found that Aaliyah had been, had told a couple of friends she was close to that. Yep, we've been seeing each other for a while. He's getting ready to get a divorce. Like, it'd be totally normal.

• 1:11:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, they weren't good friends because if she had any good friends, they would have slapped her across the face and been like, girl, you might not respect yourself, but we respect you more than the situation you put yourself in. So we're, we're doing an intervention. Okay, but the internet searches are happening. Consider what else is happening at the time. On February 16th, Ashley Flynn had been murdered. That morning, Aaliyah had already expressed concerns to Caleb about whether he was involved. According to her testimony, she found the timing suspicious because Caleb had been telling her he was about to leave Ashley. Yet, Aaliyah did not immediately tell the police about the affair or her suspicions. Instead, in the following days, she searched for stories about murdered wives and unsolved homicides.

• 1:12:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  And on February 20th, Aaliyah told investigators not only that there was no affair, but that she did not believe Caleb had murdered Ashley. Then on February 26th, six days later, Aaliyah goes back to the Tip City Police Station, and she talked to the police again. This time, she'd retained a lawyer, and this time, she was truthful about the affair. And this time, she indicated that she was suspicious that Caleb had harmed his wife. So on February 16th, Caleb told Aaliyah that things didn't happen the way they thought they would. And according to her later testimony, she believed at that point that Caleb had killed Ashley, and she stopped communicating with him. Between February 17th and 19th, she searches the internet for stories about murdered wives where no suspect was found, along with her name and Ashley's name.

• 1:13:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  On February 20th, she denies to investigators of an affair. She denies believing Caleb killed Ashley, even though she testified that as of February 16th, she believed he had. And only after retaining a lawyer, who probably told her that it was illegal to lie to the FBI, does she go back in and admit the affair and acknowledge that she believed Caleb was responsible for Ashley's death. Aaliyah testified that she deleted messages she'd sent Caleb after learning about Ashley's death, including one asking whether he was responsible. And her explanation was that she knew investigators would likely examine Caleb's phone and discover their affair. But also, if they examine Caleb's phone, you deleting them off of your phone? Does not delete them off of Caleb's phone.

• 1:13:59Derrick Levasseur?

  No, dude.

• 1:14:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  So now you look worse because they're on Caleb's phone, but you deleted them off your phone.

• 1:14:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Does not look good. You could even see her, "I deleted that message. I deleted this message." You could see they're really just... They're drilling, they're drilling her into the ground, honestly.

• 1:14:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  She also admitted that she initially lied to the FBI because she feared damage to her reputation, losing her job, being associated with a murder, like you said. So we're not just looking at someone who was reluctant to volunteer information. We're looking at someone who admitted to actively concealing information in the immediate aftermath of a homicide. And once again, whatever way you want to look at it, Aaliyah spent several years doing the absolute wrong thing every single day. Ashley Flynn is now dead. If you wanted to turn things around, if you wanted to, to use that as a wake-up call to say, "Wow, I feel so guilty that my part in this may have caused this."

• 1:14:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  The thing you don't do is shut down, hide everything, and conceal information so that Caleb might be able to get away with it, so that your reputation's not ruined. The thing you do is say, "Today, starting today, my first step into being a good person and doing the right thing, because clearly the way I've lived my life has led to bad things. And now today, on February 16th, the moment I suspect him, I'm going to talk to the police." He may still be innocent, but I'm going to tell the police what, what they're asking me, and I'm going to be honest about what happened here, because this is my first step to making this right." She still cared more about herself than she cared about Ashley. She still cared more about herself than she cared about those two little girls losing their mother. Because, let's be honest, Caleb's motive was mainly manufactured by Aaliyah telling him,

• 1:15:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  "No, you can't have her and me at the same time. You better do something, you better do something, you better do something." Okay? So she knows this, but the guilt doesn't make her come clean and do the right thing for the first time in several years. The guilt makes her hide and lie more, and I don't like that.

• 1:15:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I got no notes there, because everything you said is valid. So I got no notes whatsoever as far as whether or not she's directly involved with, with Ashley's murder. That's, that's the big question here. And as of right now, just to continue to point it out for the sake of being litigious.

• 1:16:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  She has not been charged.

• 1:16:11Derrick Levasseur?

  She has not been charged with a crime. And I'd have to imagine, after the fact, even though it wasn't done initially, and there would still be time to do it, especially with the FBI involved, they could still go back and get that vehicle data. That's not, it's not impossible. And so I have to believe that someone in this case would love nothing more than to charge her with murder if she's involved. Maybe not everyone, but there are people here, you know, who are good cops, who would love to get everybody involved, especially after reading her text messages. I'm sure she's not loved by law enforcement either when they're reading that stuff. I'm sure everyone kind of feels the same. So if they could find a way...

• 1:16:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  We feel gross about it.

• 1:16:47Derrick Levasseur?

  To tie her to this, I think they would. And unfortunately, whether it's because of just a investigation or she actually didn't do it, they haven't been able to do so.

• 1:16:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  I would honestly, like, there should be some way to charge her with something.

• 1:17:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Obstruction of justice, maybe?

• 1:17:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Obstruction of justice.

• 1:17:05Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, but it would have to be tied directly to this case, right? There would have to be something there that they could say, "She had information about the crime itself and didn't divulge that information, and it impeded the investigation." It's a big hill to climb, because it has to be more than just, "She knew about an affair and didn't disclose that to us."

• 1:17:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:27Derrick Levasseur?

  So that's the problem.

• 1:17:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Let's take our last break, and we will be right back.

• 1:17:36Derrick Levasseur?

  All right, so before we started recording today, Stephanie, I had my workout routine with my trainer, Brian, and today was called Steady Rootin'. And I actually have it up here. It was 35 minutes. It was a lower body workout. You probably can't see it too well on here, but I do love Ladder, because I'm not a guy who likes to work out my legs. If you see me in person, then you already know that.

• 1:17:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  No one likes to work out their legs.

• 1:17:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Nobody likes to work out their legs, but this forced me to, because this was today's workout. It was recording on a Wednesday. That's what I had to open up today. So started up on my, my iPad at home and got done in 35 minutes. You can't beat it.

• 1:18:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  And that's why we're happy to have the Ladder app sponsoring this episode. There are enough decisions in a day. By the time you've made room to exercise, it helps to have someone qualified to tell you what you're supposed to do next.

• 1:18:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, exactly. Show up with a plan, which is exactly what the Ladder app does.

• 1:18:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  The Ladder app gives you a strength training plan designed by certified coaches with new programming each week. Those weeks build on each other through structured training blocks. So there's a purpose behind the exercises and how they progress, a method to the madness, if you will. You also get in-ear coaching throughout your sessions with instructions, form reminders, and motivation. It's like having a personal trainer in your headphones.

• 1:18:45Derrick Levasseur?

  The guidance is right there when you need it. You can focus on what you're doing instead of stopping and looking up instructions between sets. And you can choose the plan that fits your preferences and your equipment. That's important. So there are options for training at the gym or at home with dumbbells. Plus, there are styles like bodybuilding, kettlebells, and hybrid strength. Whatever you need, whatever you're looking for, whatever you have right at home or at the gym, Ladder can, can adjust the training techniques for that.

• 1:19:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  That flexibility really matters. A plan is much more useful when it fits the equipment you have access to and the kind of training you enjoy, or else you're not going to do it. The app also tracks your weights, reps, and sets, so you can see what you did previously. And you don't have to carry a notebook around with you or put in your notes app.

• 1:19:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Nope, you got the, you got the chart right there to see your progress, see how much stronger you're getting.

• 1:19:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  And your team has a group chat where your coach can answer questions, and members can encourage each other. It costs less than a dollar a day for the program and coaching and tracking. So if you want more structure in your strength training, you have a clear place to start and guidance to follow. Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimeweekly and take a quick quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan. Use our link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join.

• 1:20:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So there is another instance of weird timing. The Flynn home had a three-camera Blink system that was linked to Caleb's email account. The cameras had been set up and activated in October of 2021, seven months after Caleb and Ashley moved back to Tip City and bought their house on Cunningham Court. There were cameras set up at the front door, back door, and in the living room. A neighbor, Kimberly Binghamman, testified that she had known the Flynn for more than five years, and shortly before Christmas of 2025, she went over with cookies and a Christmas card and noticed a camera mounted outside the front door, placed in the right-hand corner of the door frame. On January 11th, 2026, Aaliyah cut off contact with Caleb after he failed to meet her 255th deadline for leaving his wife.

• 1:20:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  And between January 22nd and January 24th, Aaliyah was in Florida, losing her phone and laptop. On January 26th, the Blink camera sync hub at the Flynn home went offline, and they never came back online, which means nothing was recorded the night of Ashley Flynn's murder. Additionally, when the police took Caleb's phone, most everything, as far as messages, had been deleted, but the Blink app was still installed, and it showed that the app's last recorded use on Caleb's phone was January 30th, 2026. That means that Caleb opened the app four days after the cameras went offline and never again in the 17 days before Ashley's murder. That means he knew the cameras were down, and if he wasn't the one who actively disabled them,

• 1:21:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  he made no effort to get them back up and running. If Caleb was the one who disabled them, which I think he was, he may have been opening the app on January 30th to make sure they were still offline. Either way, it undercuts any claim that Caleb didn't know the cameras were not recording, and it suggests, in my opinion, a great deal of premeditation. Meaning, by the time Aaliyah's, I think that Aaliyah going dark on him and finally saying, "I'm done," and going no contact for a month, during that time, Caleb was like, "Okay, this is the kick in the ass I needed. I gotta start planning this."

• 1:22:10Derrick Levasseur?

  I also think, to go back to what we were talking about last episode, I think when she started dating or telling him she was dating, that was something he really didn't want. Like, when she, when it finally felt like she was pulling away and seeing other men, that drove him insane.

• 1:22:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he's still monitoring her on socials.

• 1:22:29Derrick Levasseur?

  He's, he's stalking her, he's doing the snooker ports, he's in her Instagram, and he's realizing that she's talking to other men, and his worst fear is coming true. She's going to find someone better.

• 1:22:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Derek, keep in mind, keep in mind.

• 1:22:42Derrick Levasseur?

  He don't want that.

• 1:22:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't want that for any man out there who would have Aaliyah finding him, okay? But think about this. Aaliyah and Caleb are following each other on Instagram. She goes dark on him, does not answer any of his text messages. But does she block him on Instagram so he can't see what she's doing in her life? No, she doesn't. Do I think she was playing it up in the Instagram, posting pictures of herself, looking cute? And then guys would be like, "Oh, looking fire today, Aaliyah. Thank you so much, Bradley. You're fire." She's playing it up, because she knows. You look fire, you're fire, Bradley.

• 1:23:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh my God, that's horrible.

• 1:23:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're going to be fired from the worship team. I'm your boss.

• 1:23:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  CLC, CLC.

• 1:23:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh my god.

• 1:23:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  At the end of the day, even when there are no contact, this was not a no contact of Aaliyah being like, I've got my shit straight, I've got my head on my shoulders now. I don't want anything to do with this guy. It was, I'm gonna punish him and I'm gonna show him living my life and I'm gonna drive him absolutely crazy responding to every guy who comments on my pictures. That's what happened.

• 1:23:46Derrick Levasseur?

  It worked.

• 1:23:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it worked. So he's in this pressure state now where he's seeing her moving on with her life. He's seeing exactly what she wants him to see because she wanted this to be a punishment. And also she wanted it to be the kick in the ass that he needed to leave his wife or get rid of his wife, whichever way you wanna look at it. So Caleb Flynn had his third interview with police on February 18th. During this interview, detectives asked Caleb to draw the house layout and mark the doors. And then he used that drawing to walk them through his movements. He went through the same story, moving to the couch around 12:45 a.m. because he'd been coughing and Ashley asked him to, waking up to the dog's collar, checking on his daughters, even though he told a different story to Aaliyah. He does not mention going into his daughter's room in Aaliyah's story. He prayed over his daughters and then laid down beside his youngest daughter

• 1:24:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  on the bottom bunk before hearing two loud back to back shots. He said he paused two to three seconds, then ran into the master bedroom where it was pitch black. He touched Ashley's leg and called her name for about 10 seconds before he turned the lights on. When he saw the blood, he fell to his knees and then went into the living room to get his phone and call 911. During the 911 call, he put on shorts and a t-shirt. He'd been wearing only boxers before and he was asked about the missing gun. He described it as black in a holster and claimed he saw it last within the past week in the latch center console of his F-150. Towards the end of the interview, the detectives challenged Caleb directly. And he denied it every time. They were like, did you do this? And he was like, no, of course not.

• 1:25:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  The audio from this interview is really bad, so we won't play it. But basically, there were two detectives in the room with Caleb, Detective Sergeant Mike Morgan of the Tipton City Police and Chief Deputy Steve Lord of the Miami County Sheriff's Office. And Lord played bad cop during this third interview. He was the one who asked Caleb if he did it. And when Caleb said no, he told him that the evidence was contrary to that. He told Caleb that he believed he was involved in the shooting. And he said, you know, we're gonna put together a grand jury. And if we do, that grand jury is going to conclude something. So they did actually let Caleb walk out of that interview. And then they arrested him in the parking lot.

• 1:25:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  They decided to arrest him because of all the things we talked about. The scene didn't fit a break in. And by February 16th, BCI Agent Hammond had concluded that Ashley Flynn's murder was a homicide staged to look like a burglary. Ashley's autopsy showed she was asleep when she'd been killed. No struggle, no defensive wounds. She hadn't woken up in the process of a strange burglar rifling through her things. She was a sleeping person who had been executed. But at the time of Caleb's arrest, which was February 19th, the police still didn't know about the affair with Aaliyah Botner. In fact, they wouldn't know about it until the next day when they were going through Ashley's phone. So that's crazy. They arrested him without even knowing about the affair.

• 1:26:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  And when he was arrested, Caleb asked the police, well, what changed in two minutes? And Morgan responded, evidence evolves. I don't know why they let him walk out into the parking lot. I don't know if that was a tactic or what happened there. I'm not quite sure. I was gonna ask you as a police officer, like.

• 1:26:52Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I would love, there's so many cases, I'd love to be a fly on the wall. I don't know. Maybe it was something where they were on, they were on the fence and an upper ranking official said, nah, let's go for it.

• 1:27:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  What are you doing? Why'd you let him leave?

• 1:27:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, or it was like, they were trying to, he was out of there, maybe a miscommunication and they were still trying to process what was just said. And then an upper ranking official said, no, let's go with it. Let's, I don't wanna give him any more free time to destroy evidence.

• 1:27:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  But either way, that, that's what happened. They let him walk out before he gets to his car. They are arresting him. Yeah. On March 18th, 2026, a Miami County grand jury indicted Caleb Flynn on 11 counts, expanding the five charges filed after his February arrest. The biggest additions were aggravated murder and two counts of witness intimidation. So the witness intimidation charges, as it turns out, were in regards to his own daughters.

• 1:27:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh my god.

• 1:27:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:27:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Asshole.

• 1:27:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the night of Ashley's murder, detectives had asked Ashley's mother, Jill Smith, to take the dogs and Ava and Alyssa to her home. And then Caleb arrived to her home a little bit later.

• 1:28:00Speaker 07

  He walked in and he said, do the girls know? And I said, no. And so he sat on the couch in between the two girls and told them. What did he tell them? That someone broke in the house and hurt mommy. And she's in heaven. And the girls just started screaming and crying and they were crawling all over him, saying, no, no daddy. What happened after Caleb told the girls that? They, they cried and cried. And then, you know, after a few minutes of just screaming and crying,

• 1:28:45Speaker 07

  Alyssa just sat up on the side of the couch. And she said, I don't know how and I don't know why, but I know God's got a plan and he's gonna work this for good. And then Ava said, mommy's with her best friend, Jesus, in heaven. She always talked about her best friend, Jesus. And now she'll be with him in heaven. And how did the defendant react to that? We just all cried.

• 1:29:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Terrible. Not much you can say about it. Not, I don't think there's anything that needs to be said.

• 1:29:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  It is terrible.

• 1:29:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Just the selfishness of it all and the inability to just be a man and just do the right thing and, and leave her and allow Ashley to move on with her life and raise her kids and find someone else who loves her. And it just, there's so many adjectives to describe, to describe Caleb. I don't think we need to.

• 1:29:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  But that's not all, right? That happened because Jill and Todd ended up staying at their daughter Kayla's house, Ashley's sister Kayla, so that Caleb and his parents, who had arrived from out of town, could stay at their house. So the Smiths are opening their home to Caleb and his parents. Ava and Alyssa stayed with Caleb and his parents at Jill and Todd's house. So on September 17th, a Tuesday, Jill called Caleb's mother in the afternoon to see if Ava and Alyssa wanted to go to Kayla's and be with their cousins so that Caleb could arrest. Now, at this time Caleb didn't have a phone, the police had it. So Jill had to interact with his mother in order to get any communications to Caleb. The next morning around 10 a.m., Jill got a call from Caleb's mother,

• 1:30:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  who said that Caleb wanted to see the girls right away. So the girls go over to Kayla's house. They play with their cousins, they spend the night. And then the next morning it's 10, Caleb's mommy is calling Jill and being like, Caleb needs to see the girls right away.

• 1:30:33Speaker 07

  And I thought, wonderful, you know, he's feeling better and he wants to see them. So I said, come on, girls, we're gonna go see daddy. And as soon as we got there, we left right away. As soon as we got there, Caleb, his dad and mom were waiting in the driveway.

• 1:30:55Speaker 07

  And so Caleb took the girls and, and went on a walk. And Kim said to me. Okay, I'm just gonna pause you there. What did Caleb say when he, before he took the girls, if anything? Nothing, I didn't hear him say anything. Did you see the girls after the walk? Yes. How did they appear? Nervous. And did you talk to them about that? Yes. Without telling me what they said? Yes, we couldn't go back to their house. So they, they had no clothes, no shoes, no, nothing. And we had, but friends had brought bags of clothes over. So I took the oldest one up and we were trying to look through his bags

• 1:31:38Speaker 07

  to find something clean for them to wear to Isaiah's house. That's where Kim told me to take them. And so when I was getting one of them ready, yeah, she told me she was very nervous. Who were you getting ready at that time? Alyssa. What did you do about that? I asked her why she was nervous. And without telling me what she said, what did you do next? I marched her down to her dad and said, she's, she's afraid to tell the truth. Tell her to tell the truth. What did he say? Of course, baby, you're supposed to tell the truth. And then I got Ava and went upstairs with her. And how did the girls appear? In the car without saying what they said. Super nervous.

• 1:32:23Speaker 07

  Do you know what the reason was for going to Isaiah's place? Yes. What was that? Um, the detectives and children's services were going to question the girls.

• 1:32:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Guy just can't stop manipulating people.

• 1:32:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. Yep.

• 1:32:38Derrick Levasseur?

  It's ML.

• 1:32:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, the two girls, Ava and Alyssa, they were planned witnesses. News Nation reported that they were expected to testify. And then on September 28th, the prosecutors actually asked to dismiss both intimidation counts because Ava and Alyssa did not testify. And without the girls on the stand, the state could not prove what Caleb had said to them, which is why they're questioning Jill. And they're saying, without telling us what they said to you, because it would be hearsay at that point without those actual people who heard what Caleb said, without them there to testify and, and be, you know, affirming of it. But in the sentencing memo-

• 1:33:12Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm sure they didn't want to testify.

• 1:33:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  They didn't, and they shouldn't have to.

• 1:33:16Derrick Levasseur?

  No. And when you're going after murder, you really don't need it.

• 1:33:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  But in the sentencing memo from October 5th, prosecutors described the conduct for the intimidation charges directly. They said Caleb had coached the girls on what to say before their forensic interviews with investigators. And he told them that their statements could make the difference between life and death for him. He also told them to deny that he had coached them about this and to keep their conversations secret. And I'm still quite sure that Caleb gave Ava and Alyssa something to make them sleep more deeply that night. No reporting shows that the girls were tested for this, but Jill Smith did testify that the girls were very groggy when she saw them on the morning of the 16th. And Detective Farkas testified that officers found NyQuil and sleeping medication in the kitchen. Remember, Caleb was saying that both girls were sick.

• 1:34:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if he'd given them some NyQuil to make it more likely that they would sleep through two gunshots in a one-story ranch, he could always just explain that away by reiterating that they'd been sick during that time. Also, Ashley Flynn had a few substances in her system at the time of her death, an antidepressant and melatonin. Dr. Brian Castro described the melatonin in Ashley's blood as significantly elevated. And his explanation was that the level was high enough to convince him that Ashley had consumed a melatonin supplement rather than, you know, this was the melatonin naturally present in her body, produced by her body. So during the trial, Jill Smith testified that she believed Ashley had been using anxiety medication for about three years, but no one mentioned Ashley taking an antidepressant

• 1:34:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  or testified to Ashley regularly using melatonin. Detective Zachary Farkas said that while he searched the kitchen, he observed a bottle of NyQuil and an over the counter sleeping medication. When asked whether the sleeping medication was melatonin, he answered, I believe it was. So I have to wonder if Ashley wasn't someone who used melatonin regularly. Did Caleb suggest that she have some that night to give him a better chance of her remaining asleep and not waking up when he entered the room? Because, you know, if you're sleeping and your spouse isn't next to you and they get up to leave or they enter the room at some point, like sometimes you will wake up just because you have kids, you're pretty vigilant.

• 1:35:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I think when he entered the room, he didn't want her to wake up or stir from her sleep at all.

• 1:35:34Derrick Levasseur?

  To your point, you could have, they didn't test the, the girls. So could he have given them a little extra melatonin?

• 1:35:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or NyQuil. I think he gave them NyQuil.

• 1:35:42Derrick Levasseur?

  NyQuil, but also maybe like, you know-

• 1:35:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe melatonin as well, yeah.

• 1:35:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Throw something in there if it's in powder form? I don't know. I don't know. I, I can't dispute what you're saying because I, I have a hard time believing that they wouldn't wake up from two gunshots. And it seems like they kind of slipped through the initial part of like the cops getting there, like, so it just seems like a lot of things going on and they didn't, they didn't wake up from it. So if I, if you were to tell me there's new evidence to suggest that they were given something, I would not be surprised.

• 1:36:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  While multiple items were collected from the Flynn home as part of the investigation, including more than 80 tools from the property. Detective Adam Bernard of the Tip City Police testified that one of these tools was a hammer in a toolbox on a workbench in the garage. Remember last week, we talked about how the side door of the garage had gouges and marks on the inside, on the interior trim, the door jamb and the doorknob, specifically circular impact indentations on the broken door handle component. The majority of the damage to that door happened on the inside, the garage side of the door. Every investigator who described that door said so. BCI Agent Hammond said there were no tool marks on the frame, no kick marks, no shoe prints. Both locks were unlocked and on damage. The damage looked like it happened while the door was open.

• 1:36:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  BCI Agent Ryzick testified that there was damage only on the inside of the door. Lieutenant Moore from the Sheriff's Office testified to fresh damage on the inside of the door, none on the outside. Agent Dimran of the FBI testified to gouges on the interior trim only. Detective Klein said the debris was all on the inside of the garage. The one exception was the outside handle, which was broken off. Two items ended up outside, the bent deadbolt receiver and handle pieces. So was the handle knocked off with a hammer. FBI Tool Mark Examiner Sarah Stuckel testified that she compares casts and marks from the door against 20 test marks made with tools from the home, including prying, gripping and compression tools. She also examined the doorknob parts and the strike plate.

• 1:37:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  She said some marks on the door were consistent with the hammer and with similar hammers. Put that together with the circular dent and the interior marks and the state's picture is that someone inside opened the door, knocked off the outside handle with a hammer and damaged the strike plate and trim from the inside. So it would look like someone had forced their way in from outside.

• 1:38:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Gotta love forensics, right?

• 1:38:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Gotta love it.

• 1:38:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Love smart people.

• 1:38:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Caleb Flynn was arrested without a gun, without an eyewitness or without a GSR test. Instead, the forensic evidence placed him at each point where the state said the crime was staged. The side garage door, the intruder's supposed way in, had been damaged only from the inside. Both locks were unlocked and intact and the strike plate and the wood chips were on the garage floor. There were no pry marks, no kick marks, no tool marks on the outside. And BCI Agent David Hammond concluded the door was damaged while it was already open. A refrigerator stood in front of that door, which investigators said would have to be moved to open it. And Caleb's palm print was on the side of that refrigerator nearest the door in his F-150 where he said his nine millimeter was kept. His prints were on the driver's side and he was the major DNA contributor on the console

• 1:38:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  button. No other prints, or at least no stranger prints were found on the car. Inside the house, a blood stain on the master bedroom light switch carried Caleb's DNA. A presumptive blood sample in the master bathroom sink drain held both Caleb and Ashley's DNA, which prosecutors suggested pointing to a cleanup. His shorts had also tested presumptive positive for blood and his palm print was on the bedroom door frame. But of course, the defense was going to have a counter for every one of these things. And they're going to have their own theories about what happened that don't include Caleb at all. And that's what we will talk about when we come back next week for the final episode of the Ashley Flynn case.

• 1:39:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, the case is crazy. And I, I just, you know, the way you kind of ended this episode, talking about Alyssa and Ava, that's really what I come back to because there's, they're going to be impacted by this for the rest of their life. They lost their mother. Think about the, the narrative and the story that unfortunately you know, and I know, they're going to go look it up at some point when they're older.

• 1:39:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:53Derrick Levasseur?

  They're going to have to read all this. They're going to have to see all this.

• 1:39:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  I hope they don't look it up.

• 1:39:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I hope they don't see you and I. I, I really, I really hope that they have a good support system around them that it keeps them away from it as much as possible.

• 1:40:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  You said that you hope they don't see me and you making fun of their father? They made fun of their father and they're closing their, their statements.

• 1:40:12Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm saying in general, just covering this case.

• 1:40:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  I hope they don't see anything. Yeah.

• 1:40:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And it's, it's, uh, I hope they have a good support system around them that keeps them as sheltered as they can for as long as they can. Because there will come a time where they're in their adulthood. I have a strong suspicion when they're ready, they'll look it up. And at least they'll understand the, the type of monster that their, their father was. And if he tries to reach out to them or reconnect, they can, they can refer to this information to make an educated decision that's best for them. Um, that's, that's up for them to decide.

• 1:40:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  They've got a great support system around them, right? The Smiths, um, obviously I think, I don't think that Jill and Todd Smith or Kayla are going to hold back on telling them what a monster Caleb was.

• 1:40:55Derrick Levasseur?

  But I do think you, you said something tonight that is very important when it comes to this case. They arrested Caleb Flynn without a motive.

• 1:41:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, without knowing about the affair. Yeah.

• 1:41:06Derrick Levasseur?

  They didn't, they didn't even have this, this motive yet. And yet the forensics and the evidence at the crime scene and just everything surrounding it, the inconsistencies in the stories were enough to charge him, to get a judge to sign off on it and get an arrest warrant for, for murder. So that just goes to show you how strong this case really is. And then you add on to it, the motive. And it's, I hate to say, it's a slam dunk. It is a slam dunk. And that's always like a scary thing to say because you never want to count your chickens before they hatch. But we will get into the final part of the series and discuss how this trial played out and where we stand today. And we can't wait to cover it with you guys. Please, until then, stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

• 1:41:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  We'll see you soon. Bye.