Ashley Flynn | "Until She’s Gone, I’m Gone” - The Mistress’s Ultimatum (Part 2)

In the early morning hours of February 16th, 2026, Ashley Flynn was shot and killed inside the home she shared with her husband, Caleb, and their two daughters. Caleb told police that someone had broken into the house, murdered his wife, and disappeared. Up until that night, Caleb’s life had been deeply intertwined with Ashley’s. They had been married for fifteen years. They were raising two daughters together. They attended church together. Caleb worked for Ashley’s father, was close with her family, and had spent years building a life that was connected to hers in almost every possible way. But investigators would soon discover that there was another version of Caleb Flynn’s life. One that Ashley did not fully see. A secret relationship. Thousands upon thousands of messages. Lies, hidden accounts, deleted conversations, and a second life running parallel to the first. And as police began pulling those two lives apart, they also began uncovering something else: the story of what Ashley had been seeing, questioning, and trying to make sense of in the months before she died.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  And we are diving into Ashley Flynn, part two.

• 0:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, we are.

• 0:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  In part one, we met Ashley Flynn, a mother of two, a teacher, a coach, and a woman whose life was filled with people who loved her. We learned about the 15 years she had spent building a family with Caleb, supporting him, encouraging him, and believing in their future. And then we read what Caleb was saying about Ashley when he thought she would never find out. While Ashley was raising their daughters and trying to understand what had happened to their marriage, Caleb and his mistress, Aaliyah Botner, were exchanging thousands of messages, hiding their relationship, imagining a future together, and repeatedly talking about wanting Ashley gone, even wanting her dead.

• 1:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Every moment Caleb spent with his wife became something he felt he had to explain to Aaliyah. Every family obligation became another reason to tell her how much he hated the woman waiting for him at home. So we left off as Caleb and Ashley prepared to celebrate their 15th wedding anniversary with a cruise. Aaliyah was furious that he was going. Caleb promised he wouldn't enjoy it. And Ashley was about to discover more of what Caleb and Aaliyah had been hiding. So that's where we are now.

• 1:37Derrick Levasseur?

  The thing is, just for full disclosure here, we are recording early because you're going away. And the only reason I bring that up is because usually we'll get your responses from part one. And we just recorded part one two days ago. However, Stephanie, I will say, you haven't seen it yet, but I started seeing some of the edit from part one. And there was a part in the episode which is going to be hilarious, where you're talking about Caleb being compared to Mr. Burns.

• 2:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mr. Burns.

• 2:08Derrick Levasseur?

  And Shannon, literally, like, you see Caleb pop up on the screen, like, he, like, comes up into the screen and then Mr. Burns comes up next to him. The car, like, it's hilarious.

• 2:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they're the same.

• 2:19Derrick Levasseur?

  And they're the same. It's hilarious. So we haven't seen your feedback yet from part one.

• 2:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Simpsons can, like, tell the future and stuff. Like, I think they told the future back then, when they first made The Simpsons, and they saw Caleb Flynn, and they were like, that's our Mr. Burns.

• 2:33Derrick Levasseur?

  That's our Mr. Burns. So, yeah, the only reason I say is because of what you just put out there, where Caleb is a horrible person, the worst of the worst, and Aaliyah's got some major character flaws.

• 2:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Action-packed with issues, that girl.

• 2:46Derrick Levasseur?

  As well. And so I'm assuming, for the sake of this episode, because we haven't seen your comments, most of you are going to agree with us. But if not, if there's, like, a big comment or question in the episode, the previous one, and we don't address it here, it's because we haven't seen it yet. We're in the future right now.

• 3:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  I feel like I'm in the past because they're seeing it in the future. And I can't be in the future when they're seeing it because I'm in the past. I know, I know. I never, inception went right over my head. I'm not gonna lie to you.

• 3:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Back to the future, though. That's a good one.

• 3:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Back to the future is a good one. And back to the future, because that's where we are, apparently, according to you. So I want to be clear about something. So we said, and we acknowledge this, that Aaliyah is clearly trying to get validation and reassurance from Caleb. And the way she likes to get that the most is by hearing that Caleb hates his wife and apparently wants her dead. And this makes Aaliyah feel better somehow. And she talked about this when she testified during Caleb's trial. She was asked, "Do you truly believe, or did you truly believe that Caleb hated Ashley?"

• 3:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Aaliyah admitted that at times she questioned it. She said that she and Caleb shared locations, which is wild. And she would see his location sometimes at a restaurant or a movie theater. And then later, she would find out that Caleb and Ashley had been together at that restaurant and movie theater. And when Caleb would explain to Aaliyah how he and his wife had happened to be in the same place at the same time, Aaliyah wouldn't believe it. So, you know, she'd be like, "Why are we at that restaurant?" And he'd be like, "Oh, Ashley's family bamboozled me and came and said, 'We all have to go out to dinner, and I had no choice.'" And she was like, "I don't believe you." Which was valid, to not believe him, because most of the time, he was lying.

• 4:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Aaliyah said she would also see messages on Caleb's phone, messages from Ashley telling Caleb that she loved him. And Aaliyah said, quote, "She always seemed to be very loving towards him, so that made me think that he was also loving toward her," end quote. A really valid thing to think, right? Why would a woman continue being like, "I love you," and all of that, if she's not having any reciprocation whatsoever? Even a wife who's getting hot and cold, or like, sometimes he reciprocates and sometimes he doesn't, she might still be sending those loving messages. But if the man had shut down altogether, wasn't texting her, wasn't even acting like she was in the same room with him when they're at home together,

• 5:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  is not giving her any reason to think that he wants anything to do with her, why would she keep sending those messages?

• 5:28Derrick Levasseur?

  As much as we may not like the whole situation, makes a lot of sense.

• 5:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Aaliyah is picking up on her intuition, is saying, "Oh, something's not right here. He's not being honest."

• 5:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. After all this time, she should have, she should have more concerns, meaning Ashley.

• 5:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I want to point out that Aaliyah seemed to not only be expressing negative feelings towards Ashley, but also towards Caleb's two daughters and what they represented, which was an eternal bond between Caleb and his wife, right? So there's animosity towards the two little girls that, obviously, it's not like Aaliyah hates these girls, but it's like, she kind of does, because Caleb had these daughters with Ashley, and she hates Ashley. So in May of 2025, Aaliyah texted Caleb, quote, "Have a great time as a family and as parents, celebrating your daughter. I feel physically sick with this stuff. What a perfect, amazing, freaking family.

• 6:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  What an amazing duo you and her are. I want to run in front of a bus," end quote. And then in August of 2025, Aaliyah texted Caleb, quote, "If you can find a way to remove her from your life, if you can really show me how sorry you are, if you can give me more and actually believable proof that you hate her, I don't know. It's all for you to figure out if you want me to really be back in your life," end quote.

• 6:51Derrick Levasseur?

  What, how, knowing what we know, it makes things look a lot worse, right? But, okay, let's pretend for a second we don't know what we know. If I'm Caleb, how would you interpret that message?

• 7:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, here's what I'm thinking. We're reading the messages, and Caleb is like, "I hate her, I hate her, I hate her, I hate her." Was that really Caleb saying he hated Ashley because he hated Ashley? Or was that the way he knew he could make Aaliyah feel better faster? Was he saying this unprompted? Or was he saying it because Aaliyah's literally saying, "I mean, if you can really make me have more believable proof that you actually hate her," right? So the only way Aaliyah could be reassured was to hear Caleb say over and over again, "I hate her," and that he wanted to kill her. And so if I'm, are you asking if I'm Caleb, what am I thinking when I'm reading these messages?

• 7:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I guess. Here's what I'll say, and not everyone's gonna love this. Aaliyah, as we said, a lot of character flaws, maybe worse. However, stepping back, this can mean a lot of things other than, "If you murder her, then that will show me that you care." I know it's easy to go there because of the outcome of what happened here. And I'm sure even Aaliyah would acknowledge that that message, considering what happened, looks really bad. But I do think there is a world where she wrote this, and she was meaning something more along the lines of, like, leaving her, or, I don't know, doing something other than killing her.

• 8:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Leaving her, but also not just leaving her. I need believable proof that you hate her.

• 8:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like, just unfollowing her from social. I don't know what's in her brain, but there's not enough here for me to say she's, she's in-

• 8:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb had already unfollowed Ashley from socials, had already blocked her.

• 8:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Already done all that, okay.

• 8:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  So here's my thing. We know that people get divorced all the time, and then they get into other relationships. If a relationship that you're getting into after a divorce, if that person in that relationship is like, "Not only do I need you to leave your spouse and be with me, but I need to know and have you illustrate to me on a regular basis that you hate that person." Do we really want our new spouse to hate their old spouse that much? Is that really something we want? Is that a healthy thing to want and to ask of somebody? Because they have children together. If you really cared about this man, wouldn't you want him to have a somewhat good relationship with his ex-wife so he can take care of his children?

• 9:22Derrick Levasseur?

  100% agree. But this is something which kind of Aaliyah acknowledged in the last part that we talked about, where, according to her, not saying, I'm not here defending her, but according to her, she initially turned it down, wasn't about it. And then it went to a place where, reading between the lines, where she is really not happy and embarrassed by the way she started conducting herself because of this toxic relationship. So I do think it's unreasonable for her to ask that. And in a normal, real relationship, where you maybe had a partner previously, and you had children with them, you shouldn't expect those things. But because he was refusing to leave her, and she was picking up on the fact, like you just said, that if he were treating her the way he was describing how he was treating her to Aaliyah,

• 10:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Ashley would have left him a while ago, and yet she hasn't. So she needs you to overprove at this point that you're treating her like [BLEEP] at home, because I'm not believing that you are. I think you're all hunky-dory and lovey-witty with her there, and that's why you're staying, and that's why she's not picking up on the fact that you're cheating on her.

• 10:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you want your marriage with Ashley and everything it provides you, and you also want me on the side.

• 10:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Correct.

• 10:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I don't want to be on the side, and I also don't want you to have any positive feelings towards your wife. And I also resent every single time and every single minute you spend with your wife and your children, but I still want you, but I want you on my terms. At this point, as you said, I can't remember. Oh, it was in our bonus episode. You were like, "You can't, you can only control yourself. You can't control the actions of others."

• 10:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Control the controllables. That's it. That's all you can do.

• 10:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's, she's trying to control these things that, when you get into a relationship with a man who's been married and has children, what you're trying to control is not possible. It's not possible to control. You can't avoid him spending time with his ex-wife and your children. You can't avoid, and you shouldn't want to. You have to understand what you're getting into. So at this point, Aaliyah should have made a decision. Maybe this isn't the relationship for me. You know, that's, that's the decision that should have been made there.

• 11:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, and that, and that's the thing, right? I mean, she's 22 years old, so she's a young woman. She can make her own decisions. She knows right from wrong. Yeah, that would have been the sign to get out of it, not double down. Clearly, there were multiple things that she was doing that I would hope we'll never know. Well, I'm sure she does now, but in hindsight, she regrets. Cause it's even when she was reading those text messages, you could see her dying a little inside after every message. It just, it looks horrible. It sounds horrible. There's no justification for it. And I think she got really consumed by, I mean, having him send videos when he was there. Like it was, she was really trying to cover his every movement to ensure that there was no chance of reconciliation between Caleb and Ashley.

• 12:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and I do think that Aaliyah was less into Caleb and more into

• 12:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Winning.

• 12:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  The control she was able to exert over him.

• 12:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Getting the man too, winning, you know? Like it was, it was a competition that Ashley didn't even know she was in.

• 12:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. That's so often, that's so often the case, right? Because these women who will get into relationships with married men, it's like they don't really want that man. They want to prove they're better than you. And, and it's, it's, it's a very awkward thing.

• 12:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I think I said it in part one, like a big question will be, I, I know I did actually where we're talking about Caleb, we know what he did and we're there on that. But like the other part of this equation is like culpability on, on the part of Aaliyah. And trying to have that conversation, she hasn't been charged with anything yet, but it's still a reasonable question to ask. And so I'm really like dissecting everything she's saying and doing because I'm, I'm wondering if there's any indication that she knew there was a high likelihood or a strong possibility that he was going to kill Ashley. And instead of pulling back the reins and saying, no, no, no, that's not what I'm suggesting. Did she almost indirectly kind of promote it and also incentivize him to do it?

• 13:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Because she knew that would allow her to be with him. That's what I'm looking at here. It's part of what I'm looking at, not the whole thing.

• 13:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  A hundred percent. And when you look at that message, if you can find a way to remove her from your life, she didn't say, if you can find a way to divorce her.

• 13:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, right.

• 13:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right? If you can give me more believable proof that you hate her.

• 13:33Derrick Levasseur?

  If you can find a way to remove her from your life.

• 13:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Remove her from your life. It's a weird way to say it, right?

• 13:39Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the, yeah, it does not look good.

• 13:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so what I'm saying is, was she saying, oh, I want you to kill her? I don't know.

• 13:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, could, is she like some genius? She's covering her tracks by saying it in a way where if anybody saw it, she wouldn't be responsible, criminally responsible? Did she know exactly what she was writing?

• 13:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think she's manipulative for sure.

• 13:58Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the question I'm asking right now. And I, I can't wait to hear your guys' thoughts on this one because you could look at that sentence and interpret it two completely different ways, depending on how you fall. So I'm really intrigued by her text messages and how they're worded because a lot is being said without saying it in a way that would find her criminally responsible. So you do have to wonder, is she just lucky? Is it just a young girl who made some really bad statements that don't look great? Or did she know exactly what she was doing? Because you have to remember too, there's also a lot of phone calls that we're not privy to, that were not recorded.

• 14:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  And messages that we can't access anymore.

• 14:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Also messages. So yeah, this is a really fascinating case from the perspective of criminal responsibility on the part of others.

• 14:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, how much influence did she have over him? And once again, he is a hundred percent culpable for his actions.

• 14:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no blame being deflected from him as far as his, what he did, but there also could be more blame handed out. That's what I'm wondering.

• 14:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's.

• 14:58Derrick Levasseur?

  And our bonus episode, for anybody who hadn't seen it, you know, there's a main monster in the case who committed a sexual assault and murder. And yet his father helped him get away, flee the area. He, he, he helped him avoid detection and he was ultimately charged and convicted of helping him and was sentenced to three years in prison. So even though he didn't do anything, they were able to prove that he had some knowledge of what he did, even, even though it wasn't beforehand. It was after the fact and he still got charged.

• 15:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it brings, it brings us back to the Michelle Carter comparison, right?

• 15:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Agreed.

• 15:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's like, I'm not Caleb's defense team. I'm not trying to pin something on Aaliyah so that it can get Caleb less justice or less time. I am saying though, when somebody is repeatedly, day after day, after day, after day, being told these things, find a way to get her out of your life and then you can have me. Find a way to, to make me believe that you hate her. When they're dealing with this consistently, day after day, it is influencing them, right? And did Aaliyah tell Caleb, I want Ashley to be killed and I want you to kill her? No, but technically, isn't that kind of the outcome Aaliyah would want? If Ashley just died, she said it a million times, I wish she would just die.

• 16:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  She wouldn't have been sad if Ashley died, right?

• 16:18Derrick Levasseur?

  I think if, and the like.

• 16:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  It would have solved all her problems if Ashley just died.

• 16:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, if there was a tragic accident and you have to wonder if she was just talking out loud because she was angry or she was trying to plant the seed, like you're saying, being manipulative, repeating the same comment and trying to plant that seed.

• 16:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  And planting it as a, as a this or that. If you don't do this, you don't have this or yeah, right.

• 16:41Derrick Levasseur?

  I can't wait to hear the Crime Weekly jury on this one.

• 16:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  We are going to go over a lot of messages between Caleb and Aaliyah, as well as messages between Caleb and his wife, Ashley. Because reading those conversations alongside each other reveals a dynamic that you cannot understand from a handful of the most shocking texts. You see the pressure Aaliyah was putting on Caleb, the deadlines, the demands for reassurance, the insistence that he finally choose her. And you see that pressure reach a critical point in the weeks and days before Ashley Flynn was killed. But you also see Caleb making promises to Aaliyah that he repeatedly failed to keep. Telling Aaliyah what she wanted to hear while maintaining a very different conversation with his wife.

• 17:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb was lying to his wife, Ashley, but he was also lying to his mistress, Aaliyah. Whatever problems existed in Caleb and Ashley's marriage, their messages do not support the picture he painted for Aaliyah of a relationship that was already over in every meaningful sense. He was still responding affectionately to Ashley, discussing plans with her and participating in conversations about their future. The contempt he expressed for Ashley to Aaliyah was not what he consistently communicated to Ashley. He never communicated it to Ashley, as far as I could tell. Ashley was trying to understand her marriage while Caleb was giving another woman an entirely different account of it.

• 18:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  And we also need to examine Aaliyah's words and actions carefully. What she encouraged, what she knew, and what role, if any, she played beyond the affair itself. So that's what we're focusing on today and we're going to continue going through the timeline.

• 18:24Derrick Levasseur?

  I know, we're already, we're already 20 minutes into this episode and we're, I can see from the script where we, we haven't even scratched the surface. So yeah, we got a lot to cover.

• 18:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, all right, let's take a quick break and we'll be right back.

• 18:40Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 18:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that, that last part might be a little harder to arrange, I feel.

• 18:58Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 19:33Derrick Levasseur?

  So Helix has more than 20 mattress models to choose from. So there are different options and depending on what you're looking for, actually trying it is going to make the difference.

• 19:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we both have the Midnight Luxe. We've had the Midnight Luxe for years.

• 19:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Years.

• 19:47Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 20:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, so that gives you time to get comfortable with your decision. See what I did there?

• 20:10Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 20:53Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 21:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So on August 6th, 2025, Caleb and his wife Ashley departed for their cruise through Mexico. It appears that Caleb and Aaliyah texted frequently throughout this time, whenever he could. And on August 12th, Aaliyah sent Caleb a message saying, quote, "I have never been more hurt by any single thing in my entire life, and nothing will ever top what I've been through. You have truly no idea what this has put me through. I truly have never felt such excruciatingly awful suffering in my life." End quote, over Mr. Burns. I just can't, I can't, I can't.

• 21:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  According to Ashley, this time had actually been good for herself, Caleb, and their marriage. So on August 10th, Caleb's mother texted Ashley, asking if Caleb knew that Ashley had called her. And this exchange suggests that Ashley may have reached out to Caleb's mother about the problems in their marriage, perhaps hoping for support or guidance. We don't know exactly what was said during that call, but afterward Caleb's mother was like, hey, does Caleb know you called me? And Ashley wrote back, quote, "I was honest with him about that, yes, but I didn't go into the details. But yes, it's been a roundtable God thing. Thank the Lord. There was just a lot of things that needed to be talked out, and we got to do that in depth, and it's been a great last 24 hours."

• 22:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  End quote. So yeah, we know that Ashley was feeling like, what the hell's going on with this man? What the hell's going on with their marriage? How could we go from being so close, best friends, everything to each other? And suddenly, like, there's no affection, intimacy, he seems off, he seems distracted. And she probably called his mother and was like, "Do you know what's going on?" Because she's at her wits' end. She never talked to her parents or her sister about this. They all testified, Ashley's family, that everything was fine in the marriage. And in fact, both her mother and father said, "If something had been going on, Ashley wouldn't have said anything to us because she would never say a negative word about Caleb." But maybe to Caleb's own mother, Ashley felt a little bit more comfortable, like, hey, you've known this guy his whole life.

• 23:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is this something that's happening that I'm not aware of? Is there something going on in his life? Has he talked to you? And I don't know what Caleb's mother said. I guarantee you, knowing Caleb's mother, as I do now, that she called Caleb up and she was like, "Your wife is talking to me and, you know, saying there's issues, like you better get her in line." But either way, obviously Ashley's trying to get some answers. And then she says that she and Caleb talked some stuff out, and it's been a great 24 hours. So at some point while on the cruise, after talking to Caleb's mother and saying it's been a great 24 hours, Ashley discovered more texts between Aaliyah and Caleb. We don't know which ones she saw.

• 23:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  We don't know what she said to Caleb about the texts or what he told her to explain them away. But we do know that Ashley once again reached out to Aaliyah Botner.

• 24:09Speaker 02

  I'm sorry, what happened while he was on that cruise?

• 24:14Speaker 03

  Ashley thought messages, saw him texting me.

• 24:18Speaker 02

  And what did you receive from Ashley?

• 24:20Speaker 03

  A text message.

• 24:21Speaker 02

  About what?

• 24:23Speaker 03

  Saying something along the lines of, "I'm thoroughly confused. We need to have a sit down when I get home." I saw text messages between you and Caleb.

• 24:32Speaker 02

  What did she attempt to arrange with you after she got back from the cruise?

• 24:37Speaker 03

  I'm eating coffee.

• 24:39Speaker 02

  Did that ever happen?

• 24:40Speaker 03

  No.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Why not?

• 24:43Speaker 03

  I was, I didn't think I could face her, knowing that I was having a relationship with her husband. I didn't think I could compose myself for that.

• 24:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh my God, she's so full of shit.

• 24:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it doesn't, it just optically just not look great. And I'm trying, guys, if you can tell, I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt in some of this, but it is, it is hard.

• 25:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Listen, it is hard, and here's the thing. It's like Ashley didn't text Aaliyah being like, "You whore, you home wrecker. When I get back to the States, I'm gonna kill you." She's like, "Hey, I'm thoroughly confused. We need to have a sit down. I want to hear your side of the story. Because as far as I know, this guy could be lying to the both of us. You might think that we're going through a divorce. You might think we have a bad marriage. I would like to give you the chance to explain what's going on, so I have more information." She wasn't mean, she wasn't rude, she was like, "I'm gonna kill you, bitch." No, she was just like, "Let's have a sit down, let's talk." And Aaliyah, she's like, "I couldn't face her, knowing I was sleeping with her husband." That's bullshit, and I'm gonna tell you why in a second. So Ashley reaches out to Aaliyah and says that when she gets home,

• 25:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  she wants to sit down and talk to her because she'd seen the messages between her husband and Aaliyah. She's thoroughly confused, she needs some clarification. They set a time to get coffee on August 20th. But Aaliyah backed out, telling Ashley that she was really busy. Now, you heard Aaliyah testify that she just didn't think she could face Ashley, knowing what she was doing with her husband. But I find that to be a lie, a lie. Because it was clear at the time that Aaliyah felt no shame or guilt over what she was doing. And her hatred for Ashley did not dissipate. She didn't feel bad for Ashley at all. On August 19th, Caleb texted Aaliyah, quote, "Hey, I just tried to send you a message, but it's not showing up. Anyways, I was saying I'm sorry to bother you. I heard you were meeting with Douche tomorrow. I'm so sorry for that. I doubt she would ask to see our messages,

• 26:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  but I just found out that when you delete message threads, you can actually still recover them and read them. I'll send a screen recording of this. But once you delete a message thread, hit the edit button in the top-left corner and hit show recently deleted. And from there, you can either delete or recover them. Obviously, we'll need to delete them. Again, I'm so sorry, Aaliyah. I told her when this all went down that I was the one who texted you first. And so she knows you didn't initiate any of this. Also told her I was asking you about the recording and specifically how the flow of the recording was going to go. Practice a bit, and then three full takes? The pros and cons of using click and guide? And lastly, who's going to end up post-mixing the whole thing? That's it." End quote. Aaliyah replied the following day, quote,

• 27:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  "Caleb, there's literally no way in hell I can physically, mentally, emotionally, or in any way at all, see her face right now. I canceled it, hope she never reschedules. If her and I do meet, you don't need to tell me what to say or worry. I got it covered. But I'm choosing peace for myself right now. I cannot look her in the eyes right now. I cannot hear her talk about you or say your name out of her mouth. There's no way I'm allowing that for myself. You have no idea the turmoil and pain that has consumed me. And now this? You caused this meeting on top of everything I'm already facing and the weight of my life and a shattered heart. It's not happening this week.

• 28:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't bear it. I already knew about the messages, very known thing with iMessage and any messaging platform, have had them deleted for a long time, and I would not show her any of my messages. My messages and anything in my phone or life is none of her business. I wouldn't show her if she asked. Not okay, and never happening." End quote. Once again, Aaliyah's on the stand like, "I couldn't face her, knowing what I was doing to her husband." But she's not feeling regret on August 20th. She's not feeling remorse for sleeping with someone else's husband. She's feeling jealousy and possessiveness over Caleb. And she was basically saying, "This woman, Ashley, better not have the audacity to have your name in her mouth.

• 28:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she also better not have the audacity to look at my phone, okay? What I do with my phone and in my life is none of her business, even though I'm actively sleeping with her husband and we actively talk about how much we want her dead on a daily basis."

• 29:06Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, all this, character-wise, is bad. I, the things that I'm concerned about is the passive comments. That's what I'm really focusing on, but all of it looks terrible.

• 29:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but you said, oh, she's reading these messages and she appears to be remorseful. Well, she said she was remorseful and didn't want to meet Ashley because she didn't want to look her in the face. But here, you can see the real reason she doesn't meet Ashley is because she's like, "Screw this woman, I hate her, I'm not meeting her, I choose peace." So I think she's, I think she's just really full of shit. And besides her reading those messages on the stand, word by word, because that's already in the record, I don't really believe anything else that comes out of her mouth.

• 29:47Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fair.

• 29:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 29:48Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fair. I can't, I can't fault you for that, and I wouldn't fault anybody for that because it already looks horrible, and she's not gonna make it any worse for herself. Now, if there is, if it really is what she wants us to believe, which is this is a young woman who wanted a relationship with this man, and he took it to a different extreme, and she's just guilty by association, you could understand why she'd want to try to, what's the word I'm looking for here? Kind of like downplay, you know, her involvement? Because she understands the potential implications, like she could still be charged. So from a human perspective, I understand it.

• 30:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's also concerned about how bad she looks.

• 30:25Derrick Levasseur?

  It's also optics, right? From that perspective as well, like you said. So I, but I'm completely on board with you. It's, it's not a good look, and at minimum, she looks like a horrible person. But I think what her big concern here is like, hey, I'm giving this statement, I'm giving this testimony as a witness. However, that doesn't mean what I'm saying here can't be used against me later.

• 30:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, because it's like, easy to say. Oh, you said you wanted Ashley dead. I didn't mean that. I didn't mean that. Okay, I guess we should believe you. But, but what if you did?

• 30:59Derrick Levasseur?

  What if she did?

• 31:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 31:01Derrick Levasseur?

  And only, and it's one of those things, only, only she knows. Only she knows what she was actually thinking when she wrote that previous text message that you discussed. Better with her out of my life or out of our life, whatever it was like.

• 31:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  What, do, do whatever it takes to get her out of your life.

• 31:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. What did you mean by that? No, she's gonna tell us. I meant just, you know.

• 31:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I meant a divorce, of course.

• 31:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course.

• 31:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why didn't you say that then?

• 31:24Derrick Levasseur?

  But only she knows.

• 31:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because then she can, if she's planting this idea in his head, get her out of your life at any cost. Then when she goes on trial and she's sitting on the stand, she can just be like, of course I didn't want him to kill her.

• 31:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 31:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you're wording it in a way where that, I mean, you said, do whatever it takes at any cost, right? Do whatever it takes to get her out of your life. So technically, he could interpret it that way. And yeah, it's not your fault if he does, but you're adding fuel to the fire.

• 31:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Adding fuel to the fire. And I, I, I'm gonna just say for myself, because we're very early in this episode. Aaliyah's not on trial here. We're gonna, we're, we're gonna continue to break down Caleb and his involvement because at the end of the day, he was clearly thinking about killing his wife the entire time and was almost just looking for the approval or just some type of agreement that, that would be okay with, with Aaliyah. So at the end of the day, he's the, he's the problem.

• 32:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I completely agree. And I almost thought that like, after he did it, it would almost be something where it would make her happy. Like, it makes you happy that I hate my wife. Wouldn't it make you happy and wouldn't it prove to you how devoted I am to you if I killed my wife for you? He probably thought, because Aaliyah's giving us that impression, right? It's you and me, baby, against the world, Romeo and Juliet, whatever it takes to be together. It's like, wow, you made the ultimate act of love.

• 32:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 32:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  And devotion by killing your wife. Like, he thought maybe she would be happy about it.

• 32:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe. But I mean, that's, that's his mindset. He's the one who started this relationship. He's the one who pursued her. He's the one who started with this, these weird freaking texts about hugs or calls about hugs. Like, he knew what he was doing all along. He absolutely manipulated and groomed this girl. And, and he is 1,000% a major part of this problem. Yes.

• 33:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  We disagree.

• 33:12Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I, I, I think, because they started when she was what?

• 33:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think they're grooming each other. So by the time they're sleeping together, she's 22. So she's not a, she's not a little girl.

• 33:22Derrick Levasseur?

  He started when she was what? Was it 19?

• 33:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  They, they met when she was 20, but it was two years before anything happened. And she's not a little girl. Okay.

• 33:30Derrick Levasseur?

  She's not a little girl, but she's still young. I think we can acknowledge that. Like, I mean, what's the frontal lob at? 25? I'm not a scientist. I'm not a biologist. I, I still, what I'm saying is the dynamic is not equal. There's a power dynamic there that's not equal.

• 33:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  By this time, she's his boss at the church. She's his worship leader. He's under her.

• 33:48Derrick Levasseur?

  But let's put it out there, right? Let's just call it what it is. Even though he's, he's a cornball, he's probably like a local celebrity because he's, because he's a former American Idol guy. You know, he's living his, you know, 15 minutes of fame. He's, you know, subjectively like an attractive guy. He's a very talented singer. You know, I'm sure he's doing okay locally. And, you know, women find him engaging and attractive and he's the pastor of the church and I, I, I don't think the power dynamic is equal there, is what I'm saying.

• 34:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I'm gonna, I'm gonna disagree with you, but that's fine. And we can, we can hear people sound off in the comments. I think by this point, like, yeah, maybe he drew her in, but you say like, he started, he was the one sending these messages. She sent twice the amount of messages that he sent.

• 34:34Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. But we can both agree, I think you'll agree with me on this. If he doesn't pursue her initially, none of this happens.

• 34:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Correct, but you allowed yourself to be pursued. So there's, there's responsibility to be had here.

• 34:46Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm not saying she has no responsibility. I'm just saying.

• 34:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't want to talk about her like she's some 15-year-old girl and, and doesn't know right from wrong. She goes to church. She's apparently a God-fearing person who knows about the Bible and sin and all of that.

• 34:58Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I, I, I just don't want to get lost in the sauce where we find ourselves over this series condemning Aaliyah more than Caleb, who pursued this girl, continued a relationship with, with her, had an affair, and then ultimately shot and killed his wife to be with this, this woman.

• 35:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're not doing that, but if we're looking at the crime as a whole, what the motive was, why he was driven to do it, why it took almost two years of him being with Aaliyah to do it, then we have to look at everything leading up to that, and she's a huge part of it.

• 35:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, that's the thing, right? Like Caleb's behind bars, and if you're following this story, you already know the outcome. I won't spoil it for everybody.

• 35:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, trust me, I hate that dude. Like, he grosses me out.

• 35:38Derrick Levasseur?

  He's the main culprit for sure.

• 35:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Before going any further, I want to state one more time, even though I feel like I have multiple times. As far as the murder of Ashley Flynn, Caleb is 100% responsible. As far as the relationship and the motive to kill Ashley Flynn, it's 50/50 between him and Aaliyah.

• 35:59Derrick Levasseur?

  That's fair. I think that's a fair statement.

• 36:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right.

• 36:01Derrick Levasseur?

  It takes two to tango, right? It takes two to tango. At either point, they could have both said, I don't want this anymore.

• 36:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  She should have.

• 36:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 36:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  She should have. He's not going to. He's got his, his whole family at home.

• 36:12Derrick Levasseur?

  But you're saying he's not going to.

• 36:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he's a bad, but yeah, he's a murderer. You know, it's like, oh, the murderer should have known better than to have an affair. I'm saying, the second you're like, this doesn't work for me, this guy's lying to me, you think he's lying to you about still loving his wife and having, if you think he's lying to you, why would you want to have him leave his wife and marry you so he can do it to you with someone else later?

• 36:33Derrick Levasseur?

  But Stephanie.

• 36:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  There's no like logic here.

• 36:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Did you hear that AI song that they played in trial, though? I mean, that would get the best of us.

• 36:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  That would be the thing that pushed me over the edge.

• 36:46Derrick Levasseur?

  You'd be like, I'm out.

• 36:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  No contact, blocking you on everything.

• 36:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm out.

• 36:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is embarrassing. I'm embarrassed. All right. So on August 22nd, Aaliyah texted Caleb, quote, "And no matter what, she's always a part of you. She's always in your life and she haunts me. There's nothing more I want to do than talk to you every day again, to be in your arms, to forget it all and just be best friends. But this time, it's much harder to forget what's happened. I don't know if you could ever imagine what this has all done to me. It's the way things were done, especially the timing. It's the coldness. I didn't deserve any of it. I know you've apologized countless times and it's good to hear you regret things, but it doesn't take away the damage that has been done. This one has no recovery in sight. As long as she lives in your home and is called your wife,

• 37:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know how to be anything that we were again," end quote. And obviously, this is the aftermath of the cruise, right? Aaliyah took this cruise. Instead of taking it as a, this dude's still going on 15-year wedding anniversary cruises with his wife. He's definitely lying to me. There's definitely something going on. I'm going to block him and not talk to him again. Instead of doing that, she's letting it eat her up. And she's basically pulling him across the coals for it. And she will continue to do that for months. But as for Caleb, he was beyond apologetic. Not to his wife Ashley, who was trying to have a nice time with her husband on their wedding anniversary, when she found more evidence that he was playing in her face.

• 38:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb apologized to Aaliyah several times for going on the cruise with his wife because of how much it had hurt his girlfriend. First, there was a text on August 22nd, quote, "I cannot stop crying. Those are not just words. I'm truly lost in nothing without you. I hear and understand everything you're saying. You have every right to feel the way you do. The timing of this effing cruise was the worst ever and I cannot say I'm sorry enough. I know that it's still not enough. I've said it before, but I have to say it again. I didn't go to hurt you. I didn't go for her. I only went because I felt the Lord asked me to stop being disobedient and trying to control things. But Aaliyah, I'm sorry I went. I thought the Lord would honor what I did as being obedient,

• 38:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  but it has truly made things awful. I'm not blaming the Lord or anything, but it has ruined everyone and I know that. I'd give anything in the world to have you again and be friends and like you said, hold each other. But I know this trip in the presence of douche has ruined it all. It's more than I can actually bear. All I want is you. I'm sorry I've hurt you. I was up till 4:00 AM last night crying and literally thinking of ways to kill her and not go to jail. Even though you have said if she was gone, you wouldn't want me. I'm sorry, Aaliyah, for this. Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. I hate every second of this life I have to live. All I do is daydream about you. All I do is dream about hugging you. I'm sorry I've hurt you. I'm truly sorry. It's only because of Alyssa and Ava. I have been literally trying to find a way to get rid of her, to be rid of her," end quote.

• 39:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then what is, what does Aaliyah say to this, though?

• 39:46Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm interested to hear this response. Because I have a comment about what he said, but let's, I'll wait. I want to hear the response.

• 39:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  She says, quote, "It would change everything, Caleb. I'm not asking that you take her life, obviously, because that's not what you should do, and I know you actually wouldn't. But to make the divorce happen, it would change everything," end quote.

• 40:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. I gotta say. I think this helps her a ton.

• 40:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, because she knows that somebody might see her messages, understand she's telling him to delete all the messages. She's worried that in a divorce, she keeps saying, in a divorce, I'm worried that the lawyers are gonna get a warrant for your phone. That doesn't happen in divorces, by the way.

• 40:27Derrick Levasseur?

  I am going to put it out there that at this point, she might have me fooled slightly. Maybe she's playing 4D chess and I'm just not picking up on it. I think this is a woman who's responding with, I mean, actually, I don't want you to kill her. You should not do that. That would be crazy.

• 40:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  First, she said it would change everything. I mean, obviously not kill her.

• 40:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Him leaving her or him would change everything.

• 40:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  He said, I was up till four in the morning, trying to find ways to kill her and not go to jail. And then he said, I've been literally trying to find a way to get rid of her, to be rid of her. And Aaliyah's first words to him are, it would change everything, Caleb. But hold on, of course, I'm not asking you to take her life because you shouldn't.

• 41:05Derrick Levasseur?

  You shouldn't.

• 41:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  You shouldn't.

• 41:07Derrick Levasseur?

  This right here, this statement alone, we got two more. I mean, how many parts of this series? Multiple. We got a few more to go. I would say this statement right here, having it in writing might be, maybe I'm sensationalizing there, maybe I'm, you know, maybe it's hyperbole a little bit, but I think this statement alone clears her of any criminal responsibility.

• 41:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So if anybody came asking, she could be like, see, right here, I told him, obviously, I don't want you to kill her.

• 41:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe you're right. And if she did, good on her, because it was a great statement to make. Because if she ever was charged with something, this is what her defense attorney's gonna highlight in big, bold letters and put it right on a poster board for the jury to see.

• 41:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  And legally, that would be correct, right? She's not saying, Caleb, kill her. How can I help you?

• 41:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 41:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  But she's not really telling him not to.

• 41:59Derrick Levasseur?

  How to do it.

• 42:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she's not really telling him not to do it.

• 42:02Derrick Levasseur?

  She is telling him not to, though. She's saying you shouldn't do that.

• 42:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  In this one message, compared to thousands of, I want her dead, Caleb, I swear to God, whatever it takes to get her out of your life, just do it. All right, so.

• 42:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, okay, all right. This, our audience is gonna be so torn on this one, man. We're gonna be, we're both gonna be getting canceled for this one, for sure.

• 42:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think you're the only one torn on.

• 42:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, you, oh, I can't wait. I think you're gonna be in the minority.

• 42:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right.

• 42:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I could be wrong. I could be wrong, but I think people, I think two things can be true. I think you can not like Aaliyah, think she's a horrible person, but also say, I don't think she wanted Caleb to kill Ashley.

• 42:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think she, mm.

• 42:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, see, that's what I'm, that's what I'm saying.

• 42:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know if she wanted Caleb to kill Ashley. I don't think she would have been upset if Caleb did kill Ashley, or if Ashley died and Caleb wasn't arrested for it, right? Then there's gonna be, there's gonna be things that kind of show you what I'm saying and why I'm saying it. Because first of all, I don't even get into it because it's in a different part, because I've already written most of the series. So I don't want to say it now, but just.

• 43:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, don't, don't. Well, hold on. I know, I'm going off the rails here, and this episode's gonna be long because I have a lot to say, but.

• 43:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  What do you have to say about what Caleb said? How he's like, I went on the cruise because the Lord, I wanted to show him I was obedient. He's an idiot.

• 43:19Derrick Levasseur?

  And conversely, I would say here, that to me, what Caleb is saying, he means it, and he's also trying to put feelers out to see how Aaliyah responds to it.

• 43:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, for sure.

• 43:33Derrick Levasseur?

  He's already contemplating killing her.

• 43:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Derrick Levasseur?

  He's trying to get acknowledgement from her that it's okay to do so.

• 43:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Aaliyah and he have already talked about it. She said, I want her dead. He said, yeah, you're not alone, right? So as in his head, they're kind of on the same page. But yeah, he's, he's just an idiot. And if I'm Aaliyah, I'm like, the Lord told you to go on the cruise, Caleb? All right, I'm done. I'm done with you. So Caleb.

• 43:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm gonna just start using that response for anything I do that I shouldn't do. Lord told me to do it, Steph.

• 43:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  I thought that if I did, the Lord would be happy with me, but he has not yet rewarded me. I don't understand what I'm doing wrong here. Yeah. So Caleb texted back, quote, "If you want to pursue Will or Nathan or anyone for that matter, you need to do it. I need to go through and feel what you have. I'm sorry for all I've put you through. I'm so effing sorry, Aaliyah. I'm nothing. I'm not worth a second of your time. Don't give me another thought. I'll work on getting rid of her. Until then, I love you. I will support you from the side. You owe me nothing. I am nothing." End quote. So for some clarity, Caleb mentions a person named Will. Will has been a big concern for Caleb for a long time. He has expressed a lot of jealousy about Aaliyah and this guy Will interacting

• 44:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  with each other. So Will was the leader of a running club that Aaliyah attended called Run for Christ, and he represented something that Caleb could not control. Aaliyah could meet someone through a shared interest, spend time with this man openly, and potentially move on while Caleb remained married. And I think Caleb's like, is Aaliyah gonna meet someone her own age, who doesn't have baggage, who isn't married, who doesn't have children? Because Aaliyah's expressed to me that all of these things, me having kids and being married, and that, that all of these people from my past would still have to be involved in my present with her. Would she meet somebody and realize that it's better to be with someone

• 45:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  who doesn't have all of that, and then they can create a whole family together? So as much as Aaliyah is concerned about Caleb falling back into love with his wife, or being in love with his wife still, Caleb's concerned that Aaliyah's gonna meet someone and, and be over him.

• 45:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 45:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they're both, they're both trying to keep each other in this toxic control cycle.

• 45:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Why is that, right? Because they both know that there are better options out there for them, right? Like, Aaliyah knows that Ashley's a great woman, a great mother, a great wife, and she's threatened by her. Conversely, Caleb knows that there are people out there like Will who would be much better suited for Aaliyah.

• 46:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they don't want the other person to figure that out.

• 46:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. So they have to keep you in a box, keep you away from everybody, because if you allow them to go out there and look around, they might actually see what's available.

• 46:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you gotta keep texting every three minutes of every day.

• 46:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Texting, gotta keep him out of the house with Ashley, can't have him around. He's gotta send videos to let her know that he's not, she's not there. Because any time spent together is another moment where maybe Caleb realizes how great he has it.

• 46:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Actually, like, this thing that they did to each other for this long had to have been their own personal hell, singularly for each other, because this seems miserable.

• 46:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, not fun at all. I don't know.

• 46:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not fun at all.

• 46:43Derrick Levasseur?

  The sex cannot be worth it.

• 46:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  It cannot be. No, nothing is worth it. Nothing. I don't even care if you love, you genuinely love this person. I don't believe either of them genuinely loved the other. But this is miserable. How can you do anything else? How can you focus on anything else when you got somebody constantly trying to make you prove where you are, who you're with, what's hap- oh, my God. On both ends, by the way. So.

• 47:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 47:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's gross. All right. We're gonna take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 47:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  This episode of Crime Weekly is brought to you by our friends at Wild Grain. There is something about fall that makes every breakfast sound better if it comes from a bakery, right? A warm pastry, a hot cup of coffee, a quiet morning. Unfortunately, acquiring the pastry usually requires getting dressed and leaving the house, which I don't want to do that.

• 47:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, Wild Grain lets you have the bakery part right at home. They deliver sourdough breads and seasonal pastries made by small, independent bakeries right to your door. And they also offer our favorite part, the French butter.

• 47:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  The breads and pastries arrive frozen and baked straight from frozen in 25 minutes or less, which is great. You don't have to make dough. You don't have to plan for rising time. You don't have to remember to thaw anything overnight.

• 47:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's so important. That last one, to me, is probably the most important part.

• 48:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  And because you keep everything in the freezer until you're ready to bake it, you can have something warm when you actually want it. You're not buying a beautiful loaf with ambitious dinner plans and then watching it go stale while everyone's schedule changes. It's useful for a regular weeknight, too. A loaf of sourdough alongside soup or warm bread and butter with whatever you're already making can make dinner feel a little more special without adding any really extra work.

• 48:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, absolutely. And their fall lineup is out right now. And Stephanie, I want you to tell them what's back in stock because it's one of my favorites. I can't wait.

• 48:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've already eaten them several times this month for movie nights and things. Their apple cider donuts are back.

• 48:39Derrick Levasseur?

  They taste as good as they sound.

• 48:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  They also have other seasonal products available for a limited time, so make sure you're checking those out. But definitely try the apple cider donuts. You can customize your box with classic gluten-free, vegan, or protein options. So you can really choose what fits your household or whoever's got a diet going on. And the subscription is flexible, so you can skip or cancel anytime. You can up the amount of croissants you want if you know you have family coming over. I really like the idea of having something ready for the occasions you didn't organize three weeks in advance. Family staying for breakfast, someone coming over for coffee, or a night when you just want warm bread with dinner. It does not have to be an event. It doesn't have to be stressful.

• 49:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, sometimes the bread is the event, right? Warm bread and good butter? Sign me up. I'm available.

• 49:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if you're looking for an easy way to enjoy bakery-quality food at home, we definitely recommend giving Wild Grain a try. Remember, their fan favorite apple cider donuts and other fall seasonal products are back for a limited time, so make sure you order before they sell out. Visit wildgrain.com/crimeweekly to get $30 off your first box plus free croissants for life. Again, that's wildgrain.com/crimeweekly for $30 off your first box and free croissants for life, or use promo code CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout.

• 49:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so Caleb's like trying to sacrifice himself on the altar like, I'm nothing. Just go and live your life. Don't worry about me in my own hell here.

• 49:58Derrick Levasseur?

  He's such a good guy.

• 49:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, he's so just self sacrificing.

• 50:02Derrick Levasseur?

  A knight in shining armor.

• 50:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, uh, and then Aliyah writes back to him and she said, quote, "If you really do hate her and she knows that and you want me so much more than her, then say goodbye to her forever. Would you rather have a life with her or me? That's the question you'll have to wrestle with forever. You have one life on earth as a human being. You make your own choices, but time is ticking and I can't wait forever." End quote. So this is Caleb's back from the cruise and for, for weeks, Aliyah just tortures him. She's like, "Remember the cruise? Remember what you did to me? Remember how bad you broke my heart?" Like, they could be having the most normal day. Caleb was like, "How's your day today? Good morning." And she'll be like, "The cruise? I dreamt about it."

• 50:45Derrick Levasseur?

  It's good. It wasn't, I mean, I'd much prefer to be on a cruise right now.

• 50:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  "How was the cruise with your wonderful wife? My days will never be good again."

• 50:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Caleb's doing everything he can, right? He's like apologizing up and down, just being completely disgusting. And then he sends her a voice message while he's at a sporting event.

• 51:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, no. Caleb, no.

• 51:09Speaker 04

  I'm sorry. You're not wrong. You can do whatever the crap you want. And I was wrong for going on a cruise. That was wrong for hurting you.

• 51:25Speaker 04

  And I'm literally crying in front of thousands of people, but I don't care. I'm sorry for hurting you.

• 51:34Speaker 04

  I'm sorry for everything. And, um, I hope you have a great day today. Please do not,

• 51:43Speaker 04

  well, not that you're worrying about me, but don't feel the need to text. I know I yet again have made things worse. It all comes out of just sheer, absolute, massive love for you. But until I can be released from her, I know that you do not have to do anything.

• 52:10Speaker 04

  So I'm sorry. I'm gonna text this to you and then I promise I'll delete everything.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  It may take a lot to go through just because of service here, but I do love you and I'm sorry.

• 52:31Speaker 04

  I'm really sorry. So I hope you have a great service and, um,

• 52:40Speaker 04

  I love you. I love you very, very, very much.

• 52:51Speaker 04

  I want to see you. So sorry that, um, my absolute desire and love and passion for you causes me just to lose it. So I'm sorry.

• 53:07Speaker 04

  Bye. See you.

• 53:09Derrick Levasseur?

  He's sorry. He's sorry.

• 53:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  My absolute passion, desire and love for you causes me to lose it.

• 53:17Derrick Levasseur?

  It's rough, man. It's rough. I would, the, being in that courtroom must have been something. You can see it. He's dying inside. She's dying inside. It's just when you hear it out loud.

• 53:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  But are they also both listening to this message and they're like, oh, the good old days?

• 53:29Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree.

• 53:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right? They kind of look like they're reminiscing a little.

• 53:31Derrick Levasseur?

  She definitely was loving that message when he sent it.

• 53:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yeah. She's like,

• 53:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I'll give you that.

• 53:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  A grovel worm. Grovel on your knees. Yeah. Uh, I think that Aliyah was mad that Ashley was able to find the messages on Caleb's phone. Meaning that Caleb wasn't as on top of, you know, deleting things as he claimed to be because we've talked about, Aliyah was always like, hey, make sure you delete these messages. Here's how you do it, et cetera, et cetera. Caleb did that too, but you heard in the other message when he was like, hey, if you go into recently deleted and Aliyah was like, I done known that, man. I am the master of, of covering my tracks, unlike you, you know? So, uh, and it was often Aliyah, like she chat GPT'd and she was like, how can we make sure that messages are deleted

• 54:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  off of every platform and can never be recovered? And there was a whole chat GPT like graph and step by step. And she sent it to Caleb and she was like, make sure you read this. And he wrote back and he was like, okay. And she's like, that wasn't enough time for you to read this thoroughly. Like, what are you doing? She was very worried, she claimed, because in, in a divorce, that the lawyers would get a hold of Caleb's phone and be able to find these messages. And I, I, I don't know why, why she would think that. Nobody's taking your phone and doing a police extraction of your phone for a divorce. You'd have to give them permission for that. You can't get.

• 54:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I also think she was, she wanted the messages deleted because she knew how bad it made her look.

• 54:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, she didn't want Ashley to tell her family who go to the church, right?

• 54:56Derrick Levasseur?

  To see these messages where she's saying a lot of really disrespectful things. She's an equal part in a relationship, contributing to the toxic environment that's been created. They're both doing things that make them look horrible. And yeah, I'm sure part of it is for self-preservation. If the wife of the man you're currently having an affair with sees these messages, she could potentially show them to the people in your life, which would not be good for you.

• 55:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  But she says to him on the 15th, and we're, we're gonna get there. She's like, get a burner phone because Caleb told her, I'm divorcing Ashley tomorrow.

• 55:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 55:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Get a burner phone. Make sure you go through all of this and delete all of this. And she says, I'm just worried about the lawyers. Like, I don't want there to be evidence that we had an affair because then it's gonna get around. But once again, in a divorce, no lawyer is calling the police and being like, I need a warrant for this phone. That's a criminal thing. I don't think in divorces, and I could be wrong, but I don't think in divorces, you can get a warrant to extract someone's phone. You have to have evidence.

• 55:57Derrick Levasseur?

  You can do a subpoena for the call records for sure. Absolutely.

• 55:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  You could, but by then, everything would already be erased, you know? Cause if you're, if you're going through a divorce.

• 56:06Derrick Levasseur?

  But still, it's still gonna be on the phone records themselves.

• 56:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but they're using apps, so it wouldn't be on the phone records.

• 56:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, more than likely it would just be data than that you would see, but the phone calls, even if it's just phone calls going back and forth or pictures.

• 56:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're only using the app. They're not doing anything that can be tracked on any cell phone bill.

• 56:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, maybe she just thought there could be. I don't know. I don't know.

• 56:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  But she's a chat GPT queen. She's looked it up. And this is where it gets sketchy because it's like, she's like, just delete those. I don't want those on there. In the, in the, the situation where a divorce happens, that's not gonna happen. If Ashley had evidence, like she'd screenshotted those texts she saw on the iPad, yes, you can submit those into court. But I'm pretty sure a spouse who's getting divorced can't be like, go on his phone because I'm sure he's cheating and I need you to get evidence of it. Because you're already getting divorced and in most cases, it won't matter anyways.

• 56:55Derrick Levasseur?

  You could, I think you can, you can request it. You can subpoena them and maybe they get denied. And then ultimately the judge would come up, but there's definitely been civil cases where phone records, because they share a joint cell phone plan or something are absolutely admissible in that civil court trial, especially if the allegations of infidelities on the table, right? Like you're trying to get more money. You're trying to show that, uh, they were the reason for the divorce and the affair. You can absolutely attempt to get it. I'm sure every case is.

• 57:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Not in every state, right? In, in most states, they're no-fault divorce states, right? Now in Ohio, it's not a no-fault divorce state.

• 57:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, there you go.

• 57:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Adultery can matter during a divorce, uh, but it really still doesn't have the dramatic effect on the outcome that people might expect.

• 57:41Derrick Levasseur?

  But she's more concerned about her, right? She's not concerned about how much property or money he gets. She's more concerned that if it even gets brought up, the damage is already done.

• 57:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. She's concerned about her.

• 57:50Derrick Levasseur?

  It's all about how she looks. It's perception.

• 57:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  If you're so concerned, Aliyah, maybe don't do it.

• 57:54Derrick Levasseur?

  She just doesn't want her to become a part of the narrative during the civil trial because of the community. It will absolutely get out that what was happening between them, in a perfect world, they would get divorced and they would be able to quote unquote, "start dating after the divorce" and nobody would ever know.

• 58:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, the thing is, how did that work out for you, Aliyah? Because I guess you avoided the people of your church finding out, but now the entire country knows. But outside of that, uh, the constant, like Aliyah constantly being like, did you delete your message? Did you delete your message? Outside of that, things were getting very tense between Caleb and Aliyah. The pressure was on. The danger of Ashley finding out and exposing them both at their church and in their community was very real now that Ashley's found a few different things. On August 28th, Aliyah texted Caleb about how nice life would be if Ashley didn't exist. She said, didn't exist. How nice would it be if Ashley didn't exist? Quote, "The thought of us being free and just being able to talk all night and not have her interrupt moments like that.

• 58:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I literally forgot she existed for a minute and you were just sitting on the phone with me for so long. And then all of a sudden a complete change and you have to go and cater to her again. I hate her more than I ever have. I hate all of it." End quote. A few days later, on September 2nd, Caleb and Aliyah were making sure they were getting better at covering their tracks. Aliyah texted, quote, "Okay, so with WhatsApp, looks like we're good. If she tried to get the data from WhatsApp, it's not possible. Maybe change your password to be super hard to access the account as well, just in case. Now going to check about Apple and Instagram and ways we can erase it all. I love you. Sorry to keep you on the phone for so long. We spent most of our early time messaging on WhatsApp and said a lot. I'd make your password super hard just in case. My only thought is, if she gets a lawyer

• 59:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  and the lawyer is able to get the metadata, please return all your red receipts. The lawyer thing is the only thing that scares me. Okay, tell me when you're." I have some actions for you to take regarding WhatsApp stuff, trying to make sure we're all good, love. Sorry for all the messages. End quote. Caleb wrote back and he was like, oh, I'm an idiot. I thought I, this was all done in the WhatsApp app. And Aaliyah was like, babe, stop calling yourself an idiot. And then she said, quote, chat GPT said to make sure it's done in iCloud storage. End quote. Aaliyah was also very concerned about Ashley keeping the screenshots of messages between Aaliyah and Caleb. Caleb replied that Ashley did not keep the screenshots and Aaliyah said, quote, how do you know? How do you know she didn't? End quote. Caleb told her that he had deleted them off the iPad. And Aaliyah asked, well, what if Ashley recovered them from the

• 1:00:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  recently deleted folder? And Caleb was like, no, I promise that didn't happen. He assured Aaliyah that the iPad had been completely wiped. And in fact, there is evidence that Caleb performed a factory reset on the iPad on June 16th of 2025. Aaliyah was still not satisfied, though. She asked Caleb, what if Ashley took screenshots and sent them to herself? Caleb said that he didn't think she had done that. Aaliyah said, quote, what if she did? I thought you all had screenshots on both y'all's devices for a while. I thought you sent me screenshots from your phone and she had them too. You got to remember because that would be a big deal. End quote. Caleb said he would check on Ashley's phone while she was asleep. Aaliyah told Caleb to make sure he did, because Ashley could bring those screenshots to court and then get access to Instagram and

• 1:01:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  group me messages with a subpoena. Caleb first was like, wait, so Instagram stuff can't be permanently deleted either? And then he said, quote, ain't no way she could get a subpoena. End quote. Aaliyah then said, quote, okay, scroll back to October. That's when she found them, right? And look at her messages from your iPad, too. End quote. Caleb wrote back and he was like, listen, my daughters play with the iPad. They take pictures with their mother's phone. They play with her phone. They look at stuff on her phone all the time. I don't think Ashley would keep evidence of our affair on her phone for my daughters to find. Which tells me that Caleb is actually saying Ashley's a good person. Like, she wouldn't allow our children to think badly of

• 1:01:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  me or find this stuff. But he still assured Aaliyah that he would go into Ashley's phone and, and check. And Aaliyah said, quote, sounds good. I'm hopeful they're not in there. Just got to double check because this could be super bad if she has them. End quote. Aaliyah also told Caleb that if Ashley caught him checking her phone, she might get suspicious. So he should think of an excuse to tell Ashley in case she caught him. And Caleb was like, yeah, good idea. He said, I'll put my phone somewhere weird. And then I'll tell her I can't find it. And I'm using her phone to call my phone. And Aaliyah was like, yes, baby. You are a brilliant scheming man. It is so sexy how easily you can think of lies to tell your wife. And it took you literally no time at all

• 1:02:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  to come up with that. I love it. You're such a high value man. And I'm a lucky lady to have scooped you up while you were still in a marriage. I made all that up, but that's essentially.

• 1:02:39Derrick Levasseur?

  I was like, where's the, I'm not seeing that. I'm like, reading along with the, I'm like, wait, where is all that?

• 1:02:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  She, no, she was actually like, good idea. But it's so funny because he's like, I have an idea of how to lie to this woman. And Aaliyah's like, yes, babe. Yes, go off, King.

• 1:02:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Definitely give you credit or concede the argument that she was an, an equal contributor, even in some parts, probably the primary aggressor in the affair as far as not only, you know, doing what they were doing, right? But also covering their tracks. She seems to be the mastermind behind all of that, clearly.

• 1:03:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's not so concerned about it.

• 1:03:14Derrick Levasseur?

  No, he's just like.

• 1:03:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Really not.

• 1:03:16Derrick Levasseur?

  I love you and I want the world to know it.

• 1:03:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he's like, if people find out, so be it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna walk into church and say, I love Aaliyah, partner.

• 1:03:27Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, no. He would do it in song.

• 1:03:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, he would do it like that first and he would take a video and send it to her. And then he'd be like, everyone's gonna listen to this song. So while these two knuckleheads were using chat GPT to figure out how to hide evidence of their affair, Ashley Flynn was making notes in her phone, trying to make her life and the lives of the people she loved better. She talked about setting time limits for her daughter's screen time. She talked about teaching her children how to read and pray. She talked about making a list of things she wanted to teach Ava and Alyssa. And she talked about how she could get on the same page as her husband, Caleb. You don't want to be on his page. That is a page, we should rip that page out of the book.

• 1:04:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, burn it.

• 1:04:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Soak it in gasoline, set it on fire. We don't want that page. So by mid-September, Aaliyah was restless. She was putting more pressure on Caleb. She gave him a deadline. Leave Ashley by October, or I will leave you. She texted him on September 12th, quote, you aren't even trying with a plan moving forward. Not trying at all. I can't do this when I don't trust you. You have zero plan that would help me to stay. Nothing to fight for me with. Nothing to make me trust you more. Nothing. I'm not moving forward with anything unless there's a plan. End quote. Caleb's response? Quote, I'll be praying and thinking of a plan moving forward. Let me know if the Lord speaks to you. End quote. A few days later, on September 15th, Aaliyah told Caleb, quote, please let me

• 1:04:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  know when you divorce her. I'll be praying. End quote. So they're doing a little game here now where Aaliyah's like, I can't do this. And she's not talking to him as much, but.

• 1:05:00Derrick Levasseur?

  But she's also saying, let me know when you divorce her. And I think that's important to point out.

• 1:05:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, yes.

• 1:05:05Derrick Levasseur?

  She didn't say, let me know when you get rid of her.

• 1:05:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 1:05:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Caleb responded, quote, you're saying two different things at the same time. Some statements, you're saying I'm all ears for a plan. And then the next thing is, let me know when you divorce her, or you just can't do this while she's still in the picture. I'm not even sure what you really want. I want to be here and help as well. I will respect you if you need space in this time. And whether you believe me or not, I have been trying to think of some plan that will magically make all of this better. Being honest, I don't have that yet because I don't know what I can do until she's gone. That will really help when she's gone. My goodness, my goodness, it all changes. I will set up every safeguard to protect and keep your heart at ease. End quote. So it's interesting because Caleb's saying like, hey, you're telling me to come up with a plan, but you're like, not helping me come up with a plan, you know? And, and I can't have a plan to make you

• 1:05:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  feel better and safer and trust me until she's gone.

• 1:05:57Derrick Levasseur?

  The crazy part about all this, it could have been just avoided if you just got a divorce.

• 1:06:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why? But then he would have, he wouldn't have his job. And he's, and he's too dumb and useless to get another job.

• 1:06:05Derrick Levasseur?

  He wouldn't have his job, wouldn't have the money, wouldn't have the financial security. And, you know, maybe there's part of it. No, I wouldn't go there. I mean, I do wonder if part of it was,

• 1:06:15Derrick Levasseur?

  did he even love Aaliyah? Or was it just the sex?

• 1:06:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that people like Caleb are like, I feel inadequate. I think he felt inadequate next to Ashley, because she was like genuinely a good person inside. She wasn't just pretending like he was. And I think he felt inadequate. And I think he felt a little emasculated that, like I said, his job and everything he had came through her. Maybe he felt a little bit.

• 1:06:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Daddy.

• 1:06:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, maybe, maybe a little resentful. Yeah, maybe a little resentful. Like, if I don't want her.

• 1:06:42Derrick Levasseur?

  I was supposed to be a star.

• 1:06:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I, I was on American Idol for five minutes. Like, who's the prize here, right? Maybe resentful because it's like, if there was a time.

• 1:06:52Derrick Levasseur?

  I can't talk, I gotta stop talking shit about reality TV because there are people going to crush me in the comments. They'll be like, buddy, really?

• 1:06:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I guess, but.

• 1:07:00Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a hypocritical, I gotta stop.

• 1:07:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think it's fine.

• 1:07:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're talking about Caleb, so it's fine. Yeah.

• 1:07:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Hey, I won, okay?

• 1:07:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly, exactly. If Caleb had won American Idol.

• 1:07:14Derrick Levasseur?

  We'll give him it. We'll give him the pass.

• 1:07:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I would say, good for you, but you still suck. I think there was resentment of like, if I didn't want Ashley, then I would lose everything. I did not build this life on my own, which is the case in a marriage. You don't build a life on your own. And I think he wanted that like dopamine and that novelty of Aaliyah. She made him feel good about himself because she's some young girl and he's some Mr. Burns looking dude who was on American Idol for only five minutes. But I think at the end of the day, did he love Aaliyah? No, because I don't think Caleb Flynn is capable of love. And I don't think he knows what love is. It's all about what can you do for me? How do you make me feel? And loving the way someone makes you feel is not the same as loving them.

• 1:07:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Preach. There's a bar right there.

• 1:07:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I mean, honestly, he could have divorced Ashley. If he really loved Aaliyah.

• 1:07:58Derrick Levasseur?

  That's just it, right? A simple solution would have been, hey, I'm not in love with you anymore. We're getting a divorce. And if we're really trying to play it out, even though he wouldn't have his job anymore, there might be some financial entitlement still there because of the, you know, the, the situation. I don't know. But there was a much easier path here to take.

• 1:08:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, here's something that I want to say and it just came to me. And, and I'm really shook. Okay. Caleb could have divorced Ashley. He was telling Aaliyah, Ashley doesn't know anything. She has no evidence. But what if she did? What if she did and Caleb knew that she did? Because what he's talking about with Ashley is not what he's telling Aaliyah that he's talking about with Ashley. So what if Ashley was like, I know that you're doing something with Aaliyah. I don't know what it is or how far it's gotten, but I know it's happening. So in the course of a divorce, yes, Ashley might tell her family members, well, Caleb and Aaliyah. And then that's going to get around the church. And what Aaliyah was most concerned about was her reputation and this not getting around the church.

• 1:08:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if Caleb was like, I could divorce Ashley, but then what Ashley knows about Aaliyah will get around the church. And then Aaliyah will be like, I'm done with you and I won't have her anyways. So maybe he killed Ashley instead of getting a divorce, simply to make sure that Aaliyah's reputation wouldn't get ruined. Because like I said, he doesn't seem to care too much about that.

• 1:09:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  But Aaliyah really did.

• 1:09:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I would also add in there his reputation as well. You know, being a pastor and.

• 1:09:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  He wasn't a pastor. He was on the worship team, you know?

• 1:09:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Whatever he was, whatever he was, I keep calling him a pastor, but like part of the, it would, it would definitely contradict the perception, the character that he plays.

• 1:09:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but he's always talking, I just want to pick up and start over somewhere. He would have been perfectly content to, to leave and never, never see these people again.

• 1:09:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, he's still trying to say he's not guilty, so we'll never get the true answer.

• 1:09:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  What an idiot. So on September 21st, Aaliyah texted Caleb, quote, let's say you still hear that the Lord wants you to leave her. After you've told me so many times that he has told you that and given you peace and that you are going to leave her, but you're fasting about it. I'm afraid that October will come and you'll chicken out and not divorce her. It's pretty easy to think and say you are now, but when the time actually comes and really, really hits, that it's a real thing. You won't, end quote. And Caleb went full baby bitch boy at this point, quote, I'm crying because I hate the way things are. He's always crying, by the way.

• 1:10:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Always crying.

• 1:10:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why are you always telling people that you're crying?

• 1:10:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Nothing wrong with a man crying, but this, this man cries a lot.

• 1:10:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he's using it for manipulation, right? I don't think he's actually crying. I don't, he's like, I'm at this, at this baseball game crying in front of thousands of people. I don't even care. No, you're not. No, you're not. He's always using crying as a manipulation. I'm crying because I hate the way things are. I hate the way we talk to each other. I hate that there's no understanding and grace on both sides. I hate douche. I hate it all. I hate you resent me. I hate when we have good days, it can so quickly be turned around. I hate it. I'm going to say this and it's going to piss you off. But you know what, Ed, run of Christ, you hug guys, you talk to guys, you spend all day with them when I'm not here. I don't talk to her. I don't hug her. I don't spend time around her. Yes, I know I share a living space at the moment, but I'm beyond distant with her. I ignore her at all costs. I don't like her posts.

• 1:11:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not minimizing your feelings. What you go through sucks. It's awful, but whether you believe it or not, I hate this stupid bitch. I hate her guts and I literally run away from her at all costs. Every young adult event you hug, you laugh, you talk to guys. I don't want to talk to her. End quote. Aaliyah said, quote, wouldn't you be worried if I didn't go insane about you living with another woman and doing life with another woman? I need her gone, Caleb. You know how awful it's been for me? If you want me when I'm healed, just tell me. I already warned you way ahead of time that it's going to take a long time for me to heal after this cruise. I don't mean to keep bringing it up, but it has changed my entire life. You tell me you're leaving her either way, that you want to show me a life without her. And you know, things would be so different as soon as you left her.

• 1:11:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, as long as she stays, it'll always be hard between us. End quote. See what I'm saying? It's not, you know, as long as you're married to her, it'll always be hard between us. She's saying like, even after, if you divorce her and we're together, as long as she stays, it'll always be hard between us. She didn't say, as long as you're married to her, as long as she stays. What the hell does that mean? Stays on earth? What are we talking about here?

• 1:12:18Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I gotta, I want to go back to that. So, cause I'm reading it different than you because she also says in that same quote, like as soon as you left her. Like him leaving her. So I get what you're saying, but I'm also reading it as, as a woman who clearly just wants him to leave his wife. He wants her not around, but I, I do acknowledge what you're saying. The whole, as long as she stays thing is a little odd.

• 1:12:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, it's kind of like I'm saying, leave her, but then I'm also saying things that don't kind of align with leaving her and getting a divorce. You know, it's like this mixed messaging, kind of.

• 1:12:56Derrick Levasseur?

  It is. She could have definitely been more clear in what she wanted. And I'm sure if she truly didn't want anything bad to happen to Ashley, in hindsight, she wished she had. But I'm still taking it because listen, if Ashley wasn't dead, and maybe we'll come to the same page on this one. If Ashley was not shot and killed by her husband, okay? And you were just reading this as the deposition or a subpoena that was issued through court. And you were reading this as part of that trial, right? Part of that civil trial to decide a divorce. Would you be sitting here reading this saying, oh, this woman wanted him to kill his wife or wanting, wanted him to leave her?

• 1:13:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, what deposition am I reading it in?

• 1:13:36Derrick Levasseur?

  This is a civil trial and the wife is still alive.

• 1:13:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I'd still be side eyeing it a little bit. I'd be like, I mean, she's like, I hate her. I want her dead. Yeah, I'd be, yeah, of course.

• 1:13:47Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's a question I pose to all you guys, because that's what I'm trying to do. Cause it's really clouded because of what happened here. We're talking about a murder, right? And so what we always do is try to like reverse engineer the case from where we ended to how we got there. And when you start to play these, these messages and hear these messages and read them backwards, because we already have the ending of the story. It's human nature to start to put these puzzle pieces into the murder puzzle. How does it all play? How does it all fit? And so I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. There are things she says that I, I side eye as well.

• 1:14:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, if a woman was saying this to you, let's say you're really having a bad marriage.

• 1:14:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you want to get a divorce, but your wife's giving you a hard time and not making it easy. And you're texting with a woman that you want to be with, and she's like saying this kind of stuff to you. Are you not side eyeing it?

• 1:14:40Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I'm taking it as she wants me out of the relationship. That's just me. I'm taking it as, I'm never at one point being, being like, this girl's asking me to kill my wife.

• 1:14:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to vet all of your relationships now because you apparently can't see red flags, but.

• 1:14:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Apparently.

• 1:14:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  And neither can Aaliyah, but.

• 1:14:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I want to hear what, I mean, listen, we predominantly have a woman audience. And so I'm interested to hear your guys' opinions on this because we're only two of them. And I know I'm in the minority as far as, you know, I'm a guy and I'm dumb and I don't know what I'm doing and, you know, it is.

• 1:15:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're not dumb. I just think you're giving her.

• 1:15:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Too much credit. Well, I think what we're, what we're talking about.

• 1:15:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think you're seeing her as more innocent than she really is.

• 1:15:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Innocent in the perspect, in the, in the aspect of like, I don't think she, I don't think she wanted Ashley dead. I don't think she knew that Caleb was seriously contemplating killing her. I feel like when she said, I want her dead, I want to kill her. She was saying it like, the same way I've said sometimes, like, dude, I want to kill myself today. I really want to F and kill myself.

• 1:15:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  You say that?

• 1:15:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, definitely said, I've said it to you, but not literally meaning it. Like you say it in passing and that's, you don't even remember me saying it. Cause it's like, like, or you've never said the comment, like, kill me. Like, you know, like, never?

• 1:15:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, no, and I, I wouldn't talk about somebody else like that. I wouldn't want to be with a man who was okay with me talking about somebody else like that. Like I wouldn't be in, in messages being like, I really wish her wife was dead.

• 1:16:06Derrick Levasseur?

  And we're so, we're so divided on this one.

• 1:16:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I hate her so much. I just want her dead, Caleb. I want her dead.

• 1:16:12Derrick Levasseur?

  We were doing so many, we were doing so good with so many series.

• 1:16:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  I would really question like my, like inner kind of morality and like personhood. If I was saying that kind of stuff, like if I'm that like vehement and that like full of venom towards a person, I'm going to have to question like, is this like, what's, am I okay? You know, so, am I good?

• 1:16:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I guess I'm just, you know, I've never said, I don't think I've said it about other people. I definitely said about myself.

• 1:16:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but you never said it about other people. I've never heard you say that. I want that person dead.

• 1:16:43Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think I've said that, like, I'm going to kill this person.

• 1:16:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Don't say it about yourself either. I don't like that.

• 1:16:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I say it passively. It's like so nonchalant. Guys, I'm not going anywhere.

• 1:16:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So nonchalant.

• 1:16:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's like, kill me.

• 1:16:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Aaliyah was just like, I said, I want her dead, but it was super nonchalant. So later that day, Caleb replied back with something that I believe is very telling. He said, quote, putting words in your mouth? You wrote it. I want my girls full time and a life with you, but I can't have both. So I've weighed the options and I choose you. You made a comment in one of your first paragraphs that you said you feel you're willing to sacrifice more. I honestly can't even believe you typed that out. I think I'm willing to sacrifice. I think what I'm willing to sacrifice is my daughter's, a quarter million dollar sales job, a place to live, possibly a church that I serve at, public shame and humiliation and way more. Oh yeah, that's what I'm willing to sacrifice.

• 1:17:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've asked you to unfollow Will. Big sacrifice there. End quote.

• 1:17:44Derrick Levasseur?

  There's a big, very, very descriptive as far as a motive, right? There's a lot in there.

• 1:17:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he's saying, this is what I'm sacrificing. And he said, I'm willing to sacrifice my own children.

• 1:17:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, this, these are the things he's contemplating, which is leading towards a potential motive of killing Ashley. He wants to have his children full time. He also wants to be with Aaliyah.

• 1:18:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she's, and she's like, that's not going to happen. Yeah.

• 1:18:06Derrick Levasseur?

  He wants to keep his sales job. Well, none of those things happen if he just simply divorces her. He loses all those things. He doesn't get full custody. He doesn't have the job anymore. He loses his, his standing within the church. Like all these things go away if Ashley doesn't tragically disappear or leave. In his mind, he's obviously wrong. You can start to see how his wheels are turning. He's trying to figure out how he ends up with Aaliyah and still has all the other things he has going for him in his life, but without Ashley.

• 1:18:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  But it kind of sounds like he's saying, I know what I'm going to lose and I'm willing to sacrifice it for you.

• 1:18:45Derrick Levasseur?

  But clearly he's not, he hasn't left.

• 1:18:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  But for, but for Aaliyah, she's like, even if you get divorced, Ashley's still going to be in our lives. And, and then it might get around and she's going to tell people and then we'll be shunned. It matters to Aaliyah. She doesn't want that. Caleb's like, I understand that might happen and I'm okay with it. So.

• 1:19:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, let's take a break. We will be right back.

• 1:19:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to OneSkin for sponsoring this episode of Crime Weekly. I'm really interested in skincare that earns a regular place in my routine because I don't need 12 more products sitting in the bathroom, each with its own instruction manual and an assigned night of the week.

• 1:19:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I feel like skincare shouldn't need its own calendar. Just my opinion.

• 1:19:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. I already have enough scheduling conflicts. I don't want to think about anything after 8:00 PM at night. Now, what interests me about OneSkin is how the company started. It was founded by four PhD longevity scientists who were researching skin aging, and they approached it by asking, what happens to skin as it ages and how they could develop something to address that. So after years of research and testing more than 900 novel peptides, they developed their proprietary peptide OS1, and it is the foundation of their product line.

• 1:19:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and for those who don't know, because I definitely didn't, a peptide is a short chain of amino acids, and different peptides have different functions. And OneSkin developed OS1 specifically through its research into skin aging.

• 1:20:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. Their products are designed to support improvements in the appearance of things like skin texture, uneven tone, and fine lines over time. And that over time part really matters. I'm much more interested in something I can use consistently than in building an entire routine around the promise of an overnight transformation that never happens.

• 1:20:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, something that you'll actually keep using.

• 1:20:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. How this product fits into my day matters. Whether you like applying it, whether it works with the rest of your routine, those are details that determine whether you keep reaching for it. And I keep reaching for OneSkin. I like how it feels. I like how it goes on. I like how it mixes with my other skincare, but I also like the results I'm seeing. And OneSkin also has four peer-reviewed clinical studies supporting its results. So I like to be able to look beyond the packaging and learn about the research and the science behind what I'm putting on my skin. Also, their focus is skin longevity, caring for your skin now while thinking about how it needs to change as you get older. And that's an approach I can appreciate. Born from over 10 years of longevity research, OneSkin is helping you unlock your healthiest skin now and as you age.

• 1:21:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  For a limited time, try OneSkin with 15% off using code CRIMEWEEKLY at on skin.co/crimeweekly. That's 15% off at on skin.co with code CRIMEWEEKLY. After you purchase, they might ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them that we sent you. Thank you to Skims for sponsoring this episode of Crime Weekly. Working in a place where I'm like either home or at my own office where no one sees me, it has made me very particular about comfortable clothing. If I'm sitting at my desk for hours, I don't want a waistband I'm constantly adjusting or fabric that feels like a blanket I can't escape from.

• 1:21:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, comfort becomes a job requirement, basically. That's what we're asking for.

• 1:21:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but I also don't want to look like I'm too comfortable, right?

• 1:21:55Derrick Levasseur?

  If you guys only saw what we're wearing from the waist down.

• 1:21:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, I'm always wearing Skims. That's what we're talking about. There's something about a matching lounge set that makes staying home feel a little more intentional, even if the plan is answering emails, reheating the same coffee. And that's what I look for in loungewear, something I'm happy to put on, comfortable enough to spend time in, and cute enough that I don't immediately need to change if someone comes to the door.

• 1:22:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, the unexpected doorbell is the test.

• 1:22:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Skims has different collections depending on what you like, including Skims Sleep, Soft Lounge, and Cotton Fleece. So whether you're looking for pajamas or something cozy to wear around the house, you can explore different fabrics and styles. I am wearing, this is Skims, I don't know if you can see, but it says Skims on the sleeve. If you're listening on audio, you can't, but it's a really cozy, black skeleton sweater, and it says Skims on the sleeve, like it's bones. Skims, I love it.

• 1:22:44Derrick Levasseur?

  It's pretty sick. I'm wearing Skims underwear right now, but I'm not showing you.

• 1:22:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it's got a hood, guys. Like, are you kidding me?

• 1:22:50Derrick Levasseur?

  It's got a hood. My boxers do not.

• 1:22:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've been actually living in the Skims Cotton Fleece for weeks now, joggers, legging, zip-up hoodie, and I've gotten them in the most cozy cold weather colors, Current, which is this beautiful deep purple, and Espresso, which is this like rich brown. I love them. And I think lounge sets and pajamas make thoughtful gifts as well with the holiday season coming up, because they are something people can use regularly, especially around the holidays, when you might have family visiting, slow mornings together, or an entire evening dedicated to watching movies.

• 1:23:19Derrick Levasseur?

  A gift they can immediately get comfortable in.

• 1:23:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, no assembly, no batteries needed, nobody asking you to download anything, just something comfortable to wear. Now, Skims also has offerings for women, right? Men, like Derek said, kids, even pets. So there's options for different people on your list, and if matching family pajamas are your thing, that gives you plenty to work with.

• 1:23:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Including the dog, apparently.

• 1:23:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, they do. They have those too.

• 1:23:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, my god.

• 1:23:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  So shop my favorite loungewear and pajamas at skims.com. After you place your order, be sure to let them know we sent you. Select Podcast in the survey and select our show in the dropdown menu that follows. We'd really appreciate it. And don't forget to check Skims out, because I love it.

• 1:23:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm going to see everyone wearing that skeleton sweatshirt now, for sure.

• 1:23:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  I love it. So we've already seen some evidence that to Aaliyah, a life with Caleb could not include Ashley at all. So when it came down to still having two young children with Ashley, how would Caleb be expected to co-parent with someone who Aaliyah felt should no longer exist in their reality once the relationship ended? Caleb was telling Aaliyah here, in this message that we read before the break, "I'm choosing you over everything, even over my own children." But he considered it a sacrifice, not something he would necessarily choose to do if given autonomy, but something he was being told he needed to choose if he wanted a life with Aaliyah.

• 1:24:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  On October 2nd, Aaliyah told Caleb that she needed to hear the timeline for Caleb leaving Ashley. She needed more details. She said, quote, "It's simple, Caleb. Before today is over, you leave her. I'm yours again forever." The day of this conversation, it appears that Caleb spent an evening meeting Aaliyah's family members. So this is something that they're doing. So they're kind of already like integrating. Aaliyah talked about how she wanted to meet Caleb's mother, so she had him bring his mother to a store, I think Kroger, and then he told Aaliyah to be there at the same time so they could like accidentally bump into each other when Caleb's mother was in town, right? And so this way, Aaliyah could meet Caleb's mother and kind of already start like, oh, this is Aaliyah from church. And then Caleb could be like, Mom, did you like Aaliyah?

• 1:25:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Caleb's mom would be like, yes, she's a lovely girl. Maybe a little too young for you, Caleb, but lovely, right? So, and now Caleb's meeting Aaliyah's family members. Aaliyah texted him on October 3rd, quote, "Last night meant everything to me. That's why I was so confused about last night and you still not sharing location and everything still being different after you did all that with my family. They love you. My mom even said, wow, he's literally incredible with kids as she watched you with Roxy." That's Aaliyah's niece. "I was amazed and just saw you fitting in so well with us all, Caleb. I mean it when I say I need you for life. I need you. I hope this makes you even more urgent to leave her. Does it? I need you outside of her. I'm not going anywhere, Caleb.

• 1:26:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nothing is good outside of you, but please stop making me out to be a bad guy here. There's no bad intentions. I just see how we aren't working, how I can't trust, how I feel like my worst self roots in her. I need her gone, and I need urgency." End quote. All right, what do you think about that? I need her gone. Once again, I need her gone. I need her gone.

• 1:26:25Derrick Levasseur?

  You're doing a good job of focusing on key words, but she also says before that, you know, that I want you to leave her.

• 1:26:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Urgent to leave her, yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Leave her. So I think we can cherry pick. We're beating a dead horse here.

• 1:26:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, I'm not cherry picking if I said them both, but...

• 1:26:39Derrick Levasseur?

  You said them both, but you're focusing on the one where she says, you didn't bring up the other one, though.

• 1:26:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, see what I mean about mixed messaging? I don't know. I don't know. It just feels weird to me. So Caleb kept pushing Aaliyah's timeline off. He kept telling her that he hated Ashley as much as Aaliyah did, and he was definitely 100% going to leave his wife, but he did not give a timeline or details. And on October 6th, remember, he was supposed to leave Ashley by October, Aaliyah texted, quote, "Caleb, I want you to leave her right now." End quote. Caleb explained that it wasn't that simple. There was a lot of moving pieces, and it was going to impact not only his life, but the lives of his two daughters. Aaliyah replied that he was just too scared to follow through, and he had probably changed his mind and reunited with Ashley. I guess Caleb had told Aaliyah that if she unfollowed this person named Will on social media, that he would divorce Ashley. And so then they spent a lot of time going back and forth, arguing about that.

• 1:27:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Caleb was like, you haven't unfollowed him yet. And she was like, well, you haven't divorced Ashley yet. It was just so juvenile. Caleb was basically saying that getting a divorce was going to have a widespread impact, but unfollowing this guy, Will, wouldn't have a major implication on Aaliyah's life besides bruising Will's ego. Aaliyah was like, well, I said I would unfollow him if you leave Ashley, which you haven't done. And Caleb was like, well, I need you to do it now, unfollow him now. Caleb said, quote, "If you told somebody our entire situation and told them that I was going to divorce her, quit my job, leave my house, lose my daughters full-time for you, and that all I was asking for was you to unfollow someone, they would probably laugh and ask why you haven't done it yet." End quote. Aaliyah replied, quote, "Leave her, leave her. Divorce the woman that means nothing." End quote.

• 1:28:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb said that he planned to leave Ashley sometime before Thanksgiving, but it didn't matter anymore. He said, "I was gonna leave her before Thanksgiving, but it doesn't matter anymore because you're giving up." Aaliyah said, quote, "Caleb, let's just face it. You don't want to give up your girls full-time. You're going to punish me for it forever, and you choose her in a life with her. Please don't lead me on any longer. You know why I had so many questions tonight. You know why I'm extra in my head and have all these questions and doubts. I have every freaking right to. I'm sorry, you don't understand it. My mind is going through torture, and you just went off on me. Rid yourself of me, Caleb. I'm going to just let you be tonight, and I mean that. I'm sorry to be such an inconvenience every time we talk." End quote. They are the same person. They actually probably would have been perfect for each other, just made each other's lives

• 1:28:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  miserable, because they're both super manipulative.

• 1:29:00Derrick Levasseur?

  They definitely kind of melded into the same person, yeah. They've created this environment, they're kind of mirroring each other at this point, and they're two peas in a pod.

• 1:29:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb then said, quote, "I'm about to lose my daughters in four days, and you make this about you." End quote. Aaliyah then said, quote, "I can't be stuck in it anymore. You promised you'd leave her. If you want your girls full freaking time, then you can't have me ever again, and you have chosen that, so I have to release you and let you go. We can't be anything unless you leave her. I mean what I say. Until she's gone, I'm gone. Talk to me when you decide to leave her and really choose me. Until then, I got to move on." End quote. Caleb wrote back, wow. And Aaliyah said, quote, "Hurry up before it's too late. Wow was right. I have a timeline in my head, and I'm gonna let you decide what to do, and if I'm even worth it, better be diligent." End quote. Aaliyah's like, tick, tick, tick, tick tock, tick tock. Caleb wrote back that he understood, and he was going to leave Ashley in two weeks,

• 1:29:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  but now Aaliyah has chosen a life apart from him, and he was in the bathroom, bawling his eyes out.

• 1:30:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they make up. They make up. Aaliyah agrees to wait a little bit longer. Caleb promises that he's going to leave Ashley before Thanksgiving, but of course, that didn't happen. On November 29th, Aaliyah texted, quote, "Are you still leaving her or not? I need to know if you're still leaving her when you promised you would. I need you to know that if you don't, I'm gone forever this time. Are you leaving her? You're avoiding it. It hurts me so much worse. You do this every time with the cruise, with leaving her, and you said it was real this time. I'm going insane right now, Caleb. I need to know this before I start praying and fasting." You know what? Never mind. "I have all I need to know. Your uncertainty and not being able to answer it tells me everything I need to know. You are going to hurt me again, and this was your last chance. You still can't answer if you're leaving her, Caleb. You don't even see how much you hurt me and don't care.

• 1:30:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb, I can't keep waiting on you to leave her, and I can't go through Christmas shit again. I can't do it. Can't even bear it. So you need to make up your mind on leaving her, or I need to change my life around forever. We would have had our forever next week." End quote. So what Aaliyah is saying here is, the holiday times are here, and this is the time I want to be with my person, and you're going to be celebrating with your wife and your kids and your family. And that's going to hurt me. I've already gone through this, because they've been together for almost two years at this point. I've already gone through this a few times. I just genuinely can't do it again, right? It's been too long.

• 1:31:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Overall, I will say, they're just huge hypocrites, both of them. Like, they present themselves as like more righteous than thou, and yet they're having an affair, they're using profanity, they're talking about killing people, like, but then at the same time, like, enjoy your service. It's such a performative-

• 1:31:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm gonna fast, so the Lord can speak to me.

• 1:31:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's so performative. They're clearly delusional, because you can't say that you're, whether you're religious or not, you can't say you're following a certain practice, a certain religion, and you are faithful to that religion and those practices, and yet completely just avoid or disregard all of the sins you're committing on a daily basis, but still think somehow you are a good person, right? Like, it doesn't, it doesn't compute. Hey, basically, I'm just gonna disregard any of the things that I'm not supposed to be doing and justify them for love.

• 1:32:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I'm gonna disregard everything, everything I get up on stage and sing about every weekend.

• 1:32:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, right.

• 1:32:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  And if I'm in their position, it's like, do I really want to fast and have the Lord talk to me? Because I know what I've been doing. Do I want the Lord to talk to me right now? Like, because he's probably not happy with me, you know? At this point, Aaliyah said, "Leave her by October." Didn't happen. "Leave her by November." Didn't happen. Now, Aaliyah told Caleb, "Either you leave Ashley before Christmas," it's December now, "or I have to move on," even though she'd already told him at least three times before that this was her last chance, or else she was gonna move on. And so you know, at this point, Caleb's like, "Yeah, okay. I'm not, I'm not gonna do anything, because you're not gonna leave. You're not gonna leave." So she gave him the deadline of Christmas Day. On December 26th, Aaliyah texted Caleb, quote, "You're always all talk. Enjoy Minnesota and hurting me even more. Heard you almost weren't going to go. Thanks for doing everything.

• 1:32:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  I begged you not to. I gave you a lifetime, and you didn't take it. I gave you a timeline, and you didn't follow it. I'm not important enough. There's no way you told her you were leaving her and that everything is just okay between you two right now. No way in hell. She'd go to Minnesota with you, or not tell her family something's off here. You'll never do it. You always say you will, then it never happens. I'm done being murdered by you. I don't know you at all after all you've done and all you keep adding on. I truly don't even know if I want this anymore. Everything is always full of deceit and lies and broken promises. I can't go through it again. You'll never leave her. I'll believe it when I see it. I'm beyond tired of your empty words. I'm going to be strong this time. Please stop reaching out to me. Enjoy your beloved trip. This feels familiar." End quote. So

• 1:33:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  what she's talking about, this trip to Minnesota, it's in reference to Caleb going to see his parents for the Christmas holiday. And obviously, his wife Ashley and his daughters are going with him. And so Aaliyah's like, "The cruise, now this?" And all the while, Caleb's like, "Yeah, I already told Ashley that it's over, but we're just doing this Minnesota thing, because it's like family, and we have the girls." And she's like, "I don't believe you."

• 1:34:04Speaker 02

  Why were you worried about Minnesota?

• 1:34:07Speaker 03

  Because of Ashley spending time with his family.

• 1:34:11Speaker 02

  With Caleb's family?

• 1:34:12Speaker 03

  With Caleb's family.

• 1:34:12Speaker 02

  Is that where they live?

• 1:34:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:34:14Speaker 02

  And they went over Christmas?

• 1:34:15Speaker 03

  Yes. I said the same day. As Jesus is my witness right now, I swear on absolutely everything that I love, if you do not leave her next week, I don't want this anymore for the rest of my life. I said, "Even though you're breaking your promises again about going to Minnesota and doing all Christmas things, I can understand why you went because of your girls, Caleb. Even though you should have never promised those things to me, and even though I still hurt like hell from everything you just did, I ache, but I understand, and that's why I'm even texting it at all." He said on January 8th, "Aaliyah, I'm terribly sorry I had to leave like that. I don't know if you heard me making comments, but Matt was standing outside of me, and so I had to leave. But I'm so terribly sorry how hurt and painful this is. I know I don't feel exactly what you feel, but I hurt just as deeply in different ways. I understand and value everything you said today. I desire

• 1:34:59Speaker 03

  you more than life itself. I will let you know what happens in the next couple of days."

• 1:35:04Speaker 02

  Next message.

• 1:35:04Speaker 03

  January 11th, "Your deadline is over, and I haven't heard any updates from you about anything all weekend, like you said you would. I deserve to know the plan and details, whether it was happening or not, and the way you've talked to me on the phone lately and handled all of this in the middle of my suffering has been the opposite of okay. The lack of intentionality and pursuit from you has also blown my mind. This isn't who I fell in love with in the beginning. It's not who I've prayed for. You don't want me enough, and I just have to accept that. It's time for me to put my big girl pants on, be strong, and officially move on from you and us. I desperately wish this all could have been different. I hope you're happy with all you've taken from me. I was so ready to spend the rest of my life with you. I had never been more sure about anything and anyone in my entire life. I was wrong." Caleb said on January 12th, "Not sure where to

• 1:35:47Speaker 03

  start. I won't lie. I didn't talk to her this weekend, but it wasn't because I didn't try. I had told you on the phone I wasn't going to talk to her unless I could get the girls out of the house. Well, I did. I spoke to Todd, I spoke to Todd on Friday and asked if they could, and they sent them, they spent the night with them Saturday with their cousins. I told Douche Saturday morning it was time to talk when the girls left, and she literally said no, that she didn't want to. I said I didn't care what she wanted, and that we needed to talk. The girls left to go to Todd and Jill's at 3:30. Douche took them and then went straight to CLC as she taught kids life. After she, after she did not come back here. I don't know where she went or what she did, but she did not come here. Today, I led worship in Springbrough and then went out with Adam and Sean Miller after. Girls

• 1:36:30Speaker 03

  were here when I got back. I'm sorry I didn't get to speak to her, but it wasn't out of breaking a promise or that I didn't try. Even today, she left to go do whatever she is avoiding me. Go, to go do whatever. She's avoiding me at all costs, but I will say again, this wasn't a broken promise. I did try. I got the girls out of the house, and she left. Reading your message saying it doesn't matter what I say breaks me, breaks me. I'm sure you don't believe any of this, which I can't do anything about it, but it's the absolute truth. But I'm sorry I didn't get to talk to her this weekend. I'm not going to make any excuses, as I know I did everything I could. I'm not asking anything from you. I'm not asking you to extend anything, as I know you've settled this in your heart, and you are done. I'm literally numb right now and have no words. I don't say that in

• 1:37:12Speaker 03

  a way to pass blame or to make this about me. I'm numb at this whole situation. It's the absolute worst thing I've ever gone through. I'm not, not time with you, but Douche and the pain we have felt. I'm sorry you feel betrayed or that I have stolen things from you. Never in a million years did I ever mean to hurt you. You say that I have hurt you the worst out of anyone in your entire life. That will be something I will live with the rest of my life, as I know I didn't mean for any of it. I never meant to hurt you. I never meant for any of this to happen. I don't know if you'll ever respond to this or talk to me again, but I'm sorry. I will never understand any of this. I have so much more to say, but in my heart, I know you don't believe any of it."

• 1:37:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if you see where we are in the timeline now, January 2026, Ashley Flynn is killed, February of 2026. What we have here is, he didn't leave Ashley at Christmas, so now Aaliyah's like, "Okay, when you guys get home from Minnesota, I need you to talk to Ashley." He said, "I'm gonna do it this weekend. I wanted to get the girls out of the house, but she wouldn't talk to me. This is not me breaking another promise. This is me, like, she won't, she won't talk to me." But now, Aaliyah is trying to, like she said, put her big girl pants on. So after January 12th, when that message was sent, Aaliyah stopped responding to Caleb's messages, and she actually didn't talk to him for several weeks. But during that time, it doesn't seem as if Ashley was avoiding Caleb at all. On January 21st,

• 1:38:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ashley called Caleb, but he didn't answer the phone. He sent her a text telling her that he was worshiping, and he would call her back. And Ashley texted, quote, "You can be honest. Is it her?" End quote. Is it her? I think Ashley was talking about Aaliyah Botner. I don't know if Caleb responded because that evidence was not introduced during the trial, but I do know that four days later, on January 25th, Ashley texted Caleb again. She said, quote, "I just feel overwhelmed, don't know what to think, can't read you, and just don't know. Like, I'm just really, really overwhelmed, and I don't know how to communicate through this with you," end quote. Clearly, Ashley was not avoiding conversations with Caleb when it came to the state of their marriage, like Caleb was telling Aaliyah.

• 1:39:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  "I told Ashley we need to talk," and she was like, "Absolutely not." She left, and she's avoiding me. Ashley was not avoiding conversations about the marriage.

• 1:39:26Derrick Levasseur?

  She was actually confronting it.

• 1:39:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was confronting it. She was trying to have a conversation because she knew something was off with Caleb and that his mind and heart may have been elsewhere. But she clearly wanted to know the truth, even if the truth hurt her. You can be honest. Is it her? Right? So on January 26th, Ashley screenshotted a social media post that said, quote, "A new spouse is not the answer," end quote. Now, was Ashley text screenshotting that because she was thinking to herself, like, "I've got to make this marriage work? Getting, just going and starting over is not the answer? Like, I can make this work?" Or was she screenshotting it and possibly sending it to Caleb?

• 1:40:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Possibly, yeah.

• 1:40:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because there's not a lot of information about Caleb and Ashley's communications. So did she send it to him? As in, like, hey, if this is what you think is going to heal you and solve your problems, it won't.

• 1:40:19Derrick Levasseur?

  It's not. Yeah. It also could be that now she's realizing and figuring out that potentially her husband's having an affair, she may be contemplating, like, hey, should I be leaving him? Should I get a divorce? And maybe this was something that came across her feed, and someone who's a religious person said, "Oh, my God, this is a sign. I need to screenshot this. This is God's way of telling me that I need to stick this out, and that a new spouse is not the answer." It might have been something that she saw, quote, that she liked and thought it was, the timing was interesting, and decided to screenshot it for her own purposes to remind herself of what she, of what a quote-unquote "God" wanted her to do, or what she should be doing, giving her, giving her a sign of what she should do.

• 1:40:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, that's possible. I think definitely Ashley did not want to divorce Caleb. She wanted to work it out.

• 1:41:01Derrick Levasseur?

  But it would still be hard, right? If you figure out your loved one is cheating on you, like, I'm sure it crosses your mind, like, wow, maybe I should leave them.

• 1:41:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of course, but she finds stuff on the iPad in October, and then she finds stuff again the following August. And now we're in January of the following year, and she's like, be honest, is it her? There's clearly something that Ashley knows is happening, but she's still willing to talk about it with him and work through it with him.

• 1:41:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Work it out.

• 1:41:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. All right, let's take our last break. We'll be right back.

• 1:41:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to Collective for sponsoring this episode. Looking into weight management care can involve a lot of stuff, a lot of comparison shopping. And when you're comparing prices, you want to know what you're actually paying for. What's the medication cost? Is there a membership? Does the price change with the dose? Yeah.

• 1:41:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you want the full picture.

• 1:41:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  You need it, exactly. And Collective's approach is to bring members together and pool their buying power and then negotiate pricing directly with registered US pharmacies, which is interesting. It was founded by Gunner Lovelace, the founder of Thrive Market, and that group buying approach is central to how it works. Through Collective, eligible members can get doctor-prescribed compounded semaglutide starting at $59 a month with the same membership price at every dose. There's also a separate annual membership of $199 after the membership trial, so it's pretty straightforward.

• 1:42:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that membership includes a lot, right? You get unlimited messages with a real doctor, plus access to a licensed nutritionist for guidance on nutrition, exercise, and supplements. So you have a place to ask questions about your care and discuss the habits that go along with it.

• 1:42:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  And this is prescription care. A licensed clinician needs to determine whether treatment is appropriate for you. Compounded GLP-1s are not FDA-approved, and the FDA doesn't review compounded medications for safety effectiveness or quality before they're marketed.

• 1:42:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Collective offers a 21-day membership trial. You still have to pay for any prescribed medication during that time, and if you continue after that trial, the annual membership fees apply, or you can cancel before the trial ends to avoid that charge.

• 1:43:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  I appreciate being able to see medication costs and the membership costs separately. That's a way to organize it in your brain. Those details matter. Yeah, when you're deciding whether a service fits your needs and your budget, you got to have the full picture. So to learn more, visit collective.org/crimeweekly. Compounded semaglutide starts at $59 a month with the same medication price at every dose, plus the separate annual membership after the trial. That's C-O-L-L-E-C-T-I-V-E dot org slash C-R-I-M-E-W-E-E-K-L-Y.

• 1:43:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to Talkiiatry for sponsoring this episode. Now, it's easy to keep moving the goalposts on when you'll take care of yourself. I've noticed this. It's always like, I need to go to the doctor. I should definitely get a therapist. I should definitely worry about my mental health. But it's always, like, pushed off because everybody else needs things, you know? After this deadline, after the month's not so busy, after the holidays, once things calm down. But life does not usually hand you a completely empty week and say, here, things have calmed down, address everything.

• 1:44:08Derrick Levasseur?

  There's always something else coming up.

• 1:44:10Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:44:41Derrick Levasseur?

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• 1:44:52Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:45:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and I love that the visits are online, which means you don't have to build travel time into your schedule, so you can meet from a private, comfortable space right in your own home.

• 1:45:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree, and you can also continue with the same provider, so there's consistency. They can get to know your history, follow how you're doing, discuss changes to your treatment when needed, and that matters because questions don't necessarily stop after the first appointment. They usually don't. You might want to talk about how you're feeling, discuss side effects, or ask whether something needs adjusting. So ongoing medication management gives you a place for those conversations.

• 1:45:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, someone who actually knows the background.

• 1:45:48Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 1:46:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so then we have Aaliyah. During the time that she was not in contact with Caleb, she took an impromptu solo trip to Florida, and this is where things start to look more sketchy, if that's possible.

• 1:46:35Speaker 02

  Did you take a trip to Clearwater, Florida in January of 2026?

• 1:46:39Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:46:39Speaker 02

  When was that trip?

• 1:46:41Speaker 03

  January 22nd through the 24th.

• 1:46:44Speaker 02

  Who went with you?

• 1:46:45Speaker 03

  Just me and my dog. I stayed in Camelot Beach Suites, about 10 minutes from the beach. It was kind of just a solo getaway trip, just at the same time alone and with my dog. It was after Caleb and I had ended things, I just needed to kind of get away and have time to myself. Just a small three-day trip. That was it.

• 1:47:08Speaker 02

  What did you do with your dog while you were in Clearwater?

• 1:47:12Speaker 03

  We went to the beach. I took him on walks. I brought him to coffee shops, hung out at the hotel, watched movies. About this, about sums it up.

• 1:47:22Speaker 02

  Did you rent a kayak?

• 1:47:24Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:47:25Speaker 02

  Where did you do that?

• 1:47:27Speaker 03

  I don't remember the name of the kayak place, but it was about 15 to 20 minutes from my hotel.

• 1:47:34Speaker 02

  And you said 15, 20 minutes, is that riding or is what?

• 1:47:38Speaker 03

  Walking distance, yes.

• 1:47:40Speaker 02

  What happened when you were getting out of the kayak?

• 1:47:44Speaker 03

  As I was getting out of the kayak, my phone slipped out and fell into the ocean.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  And what did you do then?

• 1:47:50Speaker 03

  I waited for a second. I was contemplating whether I wanted to jump in, in my clothes or leave it in there. And then I did. I went in and got it.

• 1:48:01Speaker 02

  And what was the condition of the phone when you were able to retrieve it?

• 1:48:04Speaker 03

  It was just a white screen. And I took it back to my hotel, tried to charge it, and it just continued to be a white screen.

• 1:48:11Speaker 02

  How deep was the water where you dropped it?

• 1:48:13Speaker 03

  Shoulder level.

• 1:48:14Speaker 02

  How did you get to Clearwater Beach?

• 1:48:17Speaker 03

  I fly, I flew from Cincinnati to Houston, Texas to Tampa.

• 1:48:23Speaker 02

  And how'd you get back?

• 1:48:25Speaker 03

  From the Tampa airport to the Cincinnati airport.

• 1:48:29Speaker 02

  And what did you realize you lost when you got back?

• 1:48:32Speaker 03

  My laptop, my work laptop.

• 1:48:34Speaker 02

  Can you tell the jury how you lost the laptop?

• 1:48:36Speaker 03

  Yes. I lost the laptop. I genuinely feel completely innocent. I do these things a lot. Anyone who knows me knows that I lose things. I run out of gas. I forget things all the time. So I remember putting my luggage on the overhead, wherever you put your luggage on the airplane. And I think I put my laptop under my bookbag. And so as I was leaving, I must have just forgotten it on the plane. I did file a claim to Frontier and also Tampa

• 1:49:16Speaker 03

  Airport and Cincinnati Airport, just in case I didn't remember where I left it, to see if they could find it and if they couldn't find it.

• 1:49:27Speaker 02

  When did you realize you lost it?

• 1:49:30Speaker 03

  When I got in my, when I got home.

• 1:49:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Aaliyah goes to Florida after ending things with Caleb for just three days. She flies from Ohio to Florida for just three days. And somehow on that trip, she drops her phone into the ocean, it's destroyed. And then, to make matters worse, she forgets her laptop on the plane, and she didn't realize that she forgot it until she got home. Now, this timing matters because it happened during the final weeks before Ashley Flynn's murder. Aaliyah identified January 11th as her final deadline for Caleb to leave Ashley, and testified that their relationship ended when he failed to follow through. Ashley was killed on February 16th. The Florida trip therefore sits between that claimed breakup and the killing. A getaway after a breakup is understandable. The more troubling coincidence is that both devices

• 1:50:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  that she had became unavailable on that getaway. This was someone who already understood the significance of a digital trail and was actively concerned about other people finding it. I only read you some of the messages concerning deleting data from their phones, so like a small percentage of the messages I read you, and making sure that the data wasn't retrievable. But that conversation happened a lot, and Aaliyah seemed to be far more worried about someone reading those messages than Caleb did, even though admittedly, he did have more to lose. So during closing statements, Caleb's defense team portrayed Aaliyah as the frustrated mistress who wanted to become the next Mrs. Flynn and have her own children with Caleb.

• 1:50:57Speaker 05

  Should we believe Aaliyah? If you believe that she was a virgin and cheated Caleb, I have some swamp-like evidence I'd like to sell you. The laptop, the swimming laptop, she claims that she didn't notice it until she got home. Isn't it? The cell phone actually did try and swim unsuccessfully. We don't know actually where happened the laptop, but it was disposed of on a trip to Florida. So you lose your laptop and your iPhone on

• 1:51:34Speaker 05

  the same trip? And then you have the unmitigated gall to lie to the FBI. Okay, she wanted to save her reputation. How did that? Explain why you had your burner phone in your purse when you talked to them and you failed to give it to them. Holy smokes. What was her explanation? Reckless. They didn't ask for it. Boy, isn't that cute. She's there supposedly to help, and she's lying ass off. By getting rid of the church's laptop, because that wasn't

• 1:52:19Speaker 05

  her laptop, by getting rid of the church's laptop and her cellphone, she stops any investigation about who she met with in Florida. Did they investigate that?

• 1:52:37Speaker 05

  No. I understand if TPC doesn't want to investigate that. Florida's a long way away, but the FBI is international. Why not check that out? Did they investigate her finances? Did she, did she hire anyone? Were we provided with her bank information? No. Why? Because that doesn't fit the narrative. That doesn't fit the initial theory.

• 1:53:08Derrick Levasseur?

  All right. So now it's starting to make sense. Now I know what the defense is doing, and I see where they're going here. He just said it outright, right? You have a woman who has stressed over the last, however, period of time, what, two years, that she wants Caleb to end his marriage. He has not done it. He has not taken the initiative. He has not done it on his own. So the depiction here is she decided to take matters into her own hand, goes down to Florida, hires a contract killer, gets rid of all of her devices that could link back to this contract killer, or anybody else for that matter, comes back, and then within two weeks, Ashley's dead. Right? That's the narrative they're putting forward.

• 1:53:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's something of it. It's like, how can we create reasonable doubt, right?

• 1:53:49Derrick Levasseur?

  That's, that's what they're doing here. And I, listen, it's, there's some valid questions in there. Like, you want to vet those theories just to rule them out. I'm sure there's a, we haven't even gotten to the crime scene itself, and I'm sure there's a significant amount of evidence that implicates Caleb. But put that aside for a second. I think even you, playing the angle that you've played this whole series so far, as far as you and I go back and forth on, on Aaliyah, I think even you would acknowledge that, like, although it's something you need to vet to properly conduct an investigation, you don't believe there's any validity to this. There's questions around the destruction of the phone and the laptop, but I don't think it's for the purposes of hiding her meetup with the contract killer.

• 1:54:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, so exactly. I don't, I think that's a far-fetched theory, but I understand

• 1:54:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Got to vet it.

• 1:54:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  where it's coming from. And what he said is

• 1:54:38Derrick Levasseur?

  She would have motive.

• 1:54:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  what he said is valid. The police did not investigate her activities in Florida.

• 1:54:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely should have.

• 1:54:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  She got rid of her phone, she got rid of her laptop, and then she has a burner phone. And when she meets with the FBI for the first time on February 20th, she lies about everything. And when they ask her if she's got a phone, she's like, no, I lost my phone in the ocean. But she had her burner phone in her pocket, right? So he's saying she's intentionally hiding things. She's lying to the FBI. What's your motive to lie to the FBI? Did the police investigate Aaliyah at all? Not really. Okay. And here's the, here's the issue. And that's why it gives the defense this window

• 1:55:15Derrick Levasseur?

  An opening.

• 1:55:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  for, yeah, this window for reasonable doubt. Now, I don't believe that she accidentally dropped her phone in the ocean and she accidentally left the laptop on the plane. I think it was intentional. The reason for why she intentionally ditched both of her devices, that's what we don't know.

• 1:55:30Derrick Levasseur?

  And if it was what she says, man, what poor timing.

• 1:55:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, stop it.

• 1:55:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, that's the most unlucky person ever.

• 1:55:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's like, everybody who knows me knows that I just forget everything on planes.

• 1:55:40Derrick Levasseur?

  The fact that she has spent so much time in these conversations that we have concerned about being traced and tracked and having text messages and pictures and stuff come back on them, I would tend to agree with you that it's too much of a coincidence that both these devices were suddenly destroyed. And it's mainly based on the fact that she's talked so much about covering her bases in these messages with Caleb, right? So what's the next best thing? In addition to deleting any data that you can in the cloud, it would be destroying the actual physical devices so they can't even be analyzed.

• 1:56:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  They can't extract them.

• 1:56:18Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a reasonable conclusion to come to. And so having all those text messages and, and the length and, and the research that she went to, to try to cover her tracks, to have both of her devices go missing like that. Not a good look.

• 1:56:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  But here, here's my question, right? Because she says it's, she's worried about the divorce and somebody getting a hold of the messages in the divorce. What does that have to do with her devices? At this point, she has gone no contact with Caleb for weeks.

• 1:56:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Fair.

• 1:56:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's not gonna leave his wife, so I left him. If you don't think he's gonna leave his wife, why are you worried about a divorce? Why also would Aaliyah's devices matter in a divorce between Ashley and Caleb? Because they might be able to get a subpoena for Caleb's devices, but for Aaliyah's? That would be a stretch.

• 1:57:04Derrick Levasseur?

  That'd be, that'd be tough.

• 1:57:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  That would be a stretch. So why do you feel the need to destroy your physical devices two weeks after you go no contact with Caleb and two weeks before Ashley Flynn's dead? Because who could take your phone and extract it?

• 1:57:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Law enforcement. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so it's, it's a valid question and it's one that needs to be vetted because for everything you just said, if you're concerned about the affair, yes, there is, we'll acknowledge there's a possibility that it was the final nail in the coffin of your and Caleb's relationship, where you just wanted to dispose of any devices that connected you to him. Okay, that's an option. That's an option.

• 1:57:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  I guess. It's a little drastic.

• 1:57:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I would say it's drastic to consider the fact that they hadn't been talking a lot, but she destroyed her devices because she knew he was about to kill Ashley. I would say that's drastic. I think a lot of people would agree with me. I think both theories are something that are reasonable to, to, to explore, but I don't think either one is more extreme than the other.

• 1:58:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  So now I'm gonna throw a $3,000 laptop, leave it on the plane, I'm gonna throw my iPhone, my $1,300 iPhone into the water?

• 1:58:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Listen, I'm not saying they don't sound ridiculous, but I'm, there's essentially three theories that, that I think are in play here.

• 1:58:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why wouldn't she have said that then? Instead of being like, it was an accident, it was just like, I wanted to get rid of the devices because they associated with Caleb.

• 1:58:30Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. And that's, that's where the third theory comes in. So to make it quick, so we're not going over in circles here, the first theory is that she's telling the truth, that it's a, it's a series of bad events and it's bad circumstances and she's unlucky, she drops the phone out of the kayak, and then she's absent minded and the laptop's underneath the backpack, maybe the laptop's usually in the backpack. When you're getting off the flight, you got people right on your butt trying to get off the plane, you're grabbing your stuff quick over the overhead compartment, you run out, you don't have it. I don't know where the laptop would have gone, because usually flight attendants are checking those bins and checking the seats prior, you know, before the next embarkment. Is that the right word? Embarkment?

• 1:59:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Either way, before the next flight takes off.

• 1:59:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Before the next flight takes off. I don't know if that's the right word. That might be for a boat. But, but that was one thing.

• 1:59:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  The lost and found items and she'd get it back.

• 1:59:18Derrick Levasseur?

  The second thing would be that she, it was her going away to kind of reset, a trip to Florida with her dog, destroy, you know, gets rid of these devices because she doesn't want any connection to Caleb. And then the final theory, it would be exactly what you're saying. She knew something was on the horizon. She knew, I don't know what the communication was, but she knew Caleb was about to finally follow through on what's, on something that they had talked about before. And so to make sure that when this all went down and law enforcement wouldn't be able to tie this back to her, she takes this trip to Florida, she destroys her devices, and then says later that it was all an accident. And I guess the fourth theory would be, just to be fair, the fourth theory would be that

• 2:00:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Caleb's innocent, she goes down to Florida, meets with the contract killer, hey, let's just call it what it is, meets with the contract killer, the contract killer says, hey, now that we've communicated, I need you to destroy everything before you go back home. And she goes, okay, Mr. Hitman, I'm gonna take care of that. And then she destroys everything and goes back home. And then the hitman flies up to Ohio and kills, and kills Ashley two weeks later.

• 2:00:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm sorry, there's nothing that can convince me that there was any other person at the Flynn house that home pulling the trigger besides Caleb. So I don't believe in the contracted hit theory, but I understand.

• 2:00:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm just being impartial here. We got four, we got four theories at play that I think are, are all on the table here. And for the defense's purposes, they just gotta have one jury member believe that one of those other theories is possible, other than the fact that Caleb killed her. That's all they need, one person.

• 2:00:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so there was a screenshot in Aaliyah's phone, I guess her burner phone, that she did eventually provide to the police, which showed a lost and found item form submitted to Frontier Airlines on January 29th. Now, also keep in mind, the trip was from the 22nd to the 24th. She said she realized the laptop was gone when she got home, which was the 24th. Why are you waiting till the 29th to submit a lost and found form to get your laptop back, which isn't even your laptop, it's a church's laptop?

• 2:01:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it seems like a long time when you, when you, when, when timing is everything with something like a lost item.

• 2:01:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, and Aaliyah had acknowledged and has acknowledged on the stand that she did use that laptop sometimes to communicate with Caleb. Okay? But put a pin in this, we will come back to it. Caleb, he's still in Ohio, not talking to Aaliyah. This did not seem to improve his relationship with his wife Ashley, because on February 2nd, a picture saved in Ashley's phone, showing herself and Caleb together, was altered. A big black X was drawn over Caleb's face. On February 3rd, Caleb tried to contact Aaliyah. He sent her some messages. Quote, "I'm sorry to text you. I don't expect you to message back. I'm certain you won't. I'm not trying to mess with you or your heart or make things hard or to hurt you. I don't know if you even still have this app or if you have blocked me.

• 2:02:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've spent a lot of time on my own and in Cleveland. I finished the lyrics to our song, to your song. Although it made me nothing to you, I wanted to give them to you. I have the music, which is completely different to what you've heard to this point, and I was going to record it, but I know there will be no way I would ever be able to actually sing it again. But I want you to have it. It's your song and these are my words to you." End quote. Ah, the song.

• 2:02:34Derrick Levasseur?

  The song.

• 2:02:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  The song, the infamous song. Yes, at this time, Caleb was unable to send Aaliyah the actual song, because his soul-crushing grief of living this life without her had taken his voice, like Ariel's voice was taken by the sea witch, Ursula. Okay, Caleb would end up sending Aaliyah the completed audio of this song. He sent her the lyrics on February 3rd, and then he sent her the full completed song, which he was finally able to record on February 15th. We're going to play it, and if you're watching on YouTube, please make sure you're watching for the reactions of the jury, as this song.

• 2:03:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Watch our reactions as well.

• 2:03:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  The jury and Ashley's family, like Ashley's dead, this is horrible. The whole trial, they have been just, you know, you can see their reaction sometimes, stone-faced and devastated. But this song allowed them to have a moment of levity and the jury as well.

• 2:03:28Derrick Levasseur?

  The guy responsible, yeah.

• 2:03:31Speaker 02

  We were just friends, that's what we said. Early mornings, late nights, jokes in our heads.

• 2:03:45Speaker 02

  That first time I saw you, the room disappeared. Love at first sight, even though I was scared.

• 2:03:59Speaker 02

  They said time is a thief, and life's not fair. But your love felt like home, like I belonged there. Now the third of every month hits me like rain. An anniversary carved into pain. Candles burn out, I still can't move on. Life lost its meaning the moment you were gone.

• 2:04:46Speaker 02

  They whisper about numbers, the years in between. Said love has a limit, said love's not that clean. We would prove that forever was something you feel not see.

• 2:05:07Speaker 02

  We danced on the edge of a life we could choose. And the third of every month, I still say your name. Like maybe the Lord might hear me pray. We almost had all ways, it was right in our hands. Now I'm learning how fragile this life can stay.

• 2:05:43Speaker 04

  Circumstances spoke louder than hearts ever could, did what love could. Oh, you were my meaning, my love, my best friend. Life has no meaning. It's come to an end. If love only comes once, then I know it was you. Now learning how to breathe in a world without you.

• 2:06:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wow.

• 2:06:17Derrick Levasseur?

  There's so many like, we gotta have a couple screenshot reactions of different people in the crowd. There was one woman near the end there, she's like looking around, she's like.

• 2:06:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then like they show the guy on the stand, he's like.

• 2:06:29Derrick Levasseur?

  The guy in the stands.

• 2:06:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  The forensic guy, he's like.

• 2:06:31Derrick Levasseur?

  He's like.

• 2:06:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  What am I, how am I supposed to be reacting here?

• 2:06:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like he's like, don't smile, don't laugh.

• 2:06:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Can we get, why is the camera on me, guys?

• 2:06:38Derrick Levasseur?

  And then there's multiple people like covering their mouths, like trying not to.

• 2:06:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ashley's mom Jill was like.

• 2:06:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Even, even Caleb's friend Matt, his brother-in-law, Ashley's brother-in-law, that was like Caleb's dude, frat brother, and he's like, oh God, freaking Caleb.

• 2:06:54Derrick Levasseur?

  You're gonna kill me for this. You're gonna kill me for this. Song's kinda catchy.

• 2:06:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's like Daughtry, right?

• 2:07:00Derrick Levasseur?

  It's kinda, it's kinda good.

• 2:07:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause he wrote it with AI, he like made it with AI, but so.

• 2:07:05Derrick Levasseur?

  So he like auto tuned himself is what you're saying?

• 2:07:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and I'm pretty sure he wrote it with AI too, like I'm sorry, he, he rhymed at the end. Learning to breathe without you in a world without you, you rhymed you and you, dude.

• 2:07:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh yeah, I don't know, I don't know what was created and what's real, but it's, I mean, the song's kinda good.

• 2:07:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's like circumstances and.

• 2:07:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, the bridge.

• 2:07:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, the fuck, the bridge, man.

• 2:07:26Derrick Levasseur?

  The bridge.

• 2:07:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Listen, so he's singing and he keeps saying, now the third of the month hits me like rain. That's the third of the month was their anniversary. That's when, that's when they started texting on March 3rd as like lovers, lovers.

• 2:07:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, when you listen to the words.

• 2:07:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he sent it to her on February 3rd, like their anniversary, their monthly anniversary.

• 2:07:49Derrick Levasseur?

  The words are, the words are cringy, man, it's tough.

• 2:07:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh yeah.

• 2:07:51Derrick Levasseur?

  It's tough.

• 2:07:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh yeah.

• 2:07:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Hope we don't get copyright stricken for that, I'm sure he's got like a, like a record label that's gonna try to claim that in our episode.

• 2:07:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nah, he can't, he can't, he can't, no.

• 2:08:01Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think so, cause it's part of the trial, right?

• 2:08:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's part of the trial, what is it?

• 2:08:03Derrick Levasseur?

  It's not a released episode, so I don't think anyone's in that.

• 2:08:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's not a released song, yeah, there's no, no, no producer's gonna make, oh God.

• 2:08:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Guys, if someone tries to claim that record, we're gonna put their names out there publicly.

• 2:08:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Don't do it.

• 2:08:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Don't do it, cause we will expose you.

• 2:08:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe we should claim it.

• 2:08:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, maybe, no, we will, we will absolutely expose you.

• 2:08:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  We should make a crime weekly version of Caleb's song.

• 2:08:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, if someone tries to, tries to claim that, that album, that record, they're gonna, y'all know who they are.

• 2:08:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  So this is, this is Aaliyah's song, the song he's been writing for her, right? And, and according to Caleb's own words, he had played the song on the piano, sang into his computer microphone, and then used a software called 11 Labs to give it an AI voice that could sing better.

• 2:08:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yikes, that's, that's tough, that's tough for a singer.

• 2:08:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  He also complained that the AI altered the outro and made parts of the vocals sound more like rock music than he had intended. Okay.

• 2:08:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh man.

• 2:08:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, as I said, Aaliyah did not respond to that text message, or any text message that he was sending her during this time. It wouldn't be until February 14th, when Caleb would do something that prompted Aaliyah to finally reach out. And in the weeks before they reunited, Caleb was not ignoring Ashley. He was not finally having a conversation with her about ending their marriage. He was acting completely normal and going through the motions of being a husband, a good husband. He was also, I believe, starting to craft this narrative that would act as part of his alibi. The fact that he was sick with something and he had a terrible cough, right? Because this is gonna be part of his alibi he gives to the police, they're like, why were you sleeping on the couch? I had a terrible cough and Ashley asked me to sleep on the couch, okay?

• 2:09:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  On February 5th, Caleb sent Ashley a message that said, quote, and I apologize, the only reason I wasn't super animated about a date tonight is because I'll be gone tomorrow night, and so I was just wanting to spend time with the girls tonight, but no worries at all, end quote. So Caleb and Ashley are going out on dates. He's behaving in a way where he wants this marriage, or at least wants to attempt to fix what's become broken in it. But he's also making excuses for why it doesn't seem that his heart is in it. And he's like, I, you know, I really wanted to spend time with the girls, like that's why I didn't seem super excited about date night, but like nothing personal, bullshit. Then on February 10th, Ashley sent Caleb a message, quote, I failed miserably and I am truly sorry, end quote.

• 2:10:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb's response, quote, no worries, love, I've been there many times, end quote. I believe he was gaslighting the shit out of her, okay? The same way he was doing to Aaliyah. Cause once again, I'm not over here like, Aaliyah sucks, Caleb's a victim. I think they both suck and neither one of them's a victim. Caleb would turn it on Aaliyah and be like, well, you hug guys sometimes and you're not unfollowing this guy and you're still doing this and you're making me feel bad and I'm sacrificing everything and I'm doing everything I can and the reason this isn't working and the reason we're having issues is because of you. He would go back and forth between apologizing and saying, it's my fault, I don't deserve you, and then basically saying, Aaliyah, you're asking me to do too much, you're putting too much on me. And I think he was doing that with Ashley, because what is she apologizing for?

• 2:11:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  What is she saying she failed miserably at and she's sorry? And Caleb's like, no worries, my love, I've been there many times, we're all humid, we're all human, just fast and talk to the Lord.

• 2:11:19Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a secret, there are a lot of starving people over there, man, cause everyone's fasting.

• 2:11:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Everyone's fasting. So on February 11th, Caleb texted his wife Ashley, quote, I love you, end quote. And later that day, he sent another text, quote, I'm sorry I woke up late, this cough and no sleep is really starting to catch up to me. Would it be okay if I tried to go to bed at like nine tonight? End quote. Ashley told Caleb, no worries babe, do whatever, we'll help you. On February 12th, Ashley asked Caleb how his doctor's appointment had gone and he said it went well, he'd got an inhaler. He said that the doctor had heard wheezing and had told Caleb that the steroid should open his airways, quote, said to keep taking the Equate at night, so sorry, gotta fight you for pillows a little longer, end quote. Ashley replied, quote, haha, I can handle that, well good, I'm glad you went, I sure hope this helps bring you some relief, end quote.

• 2:12:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Caleb's telling Aaliyah, I haven't slept in bed with Ashley in years. He's still sleeping in bed with Ashley, he's saying, I gotta fight you for the pillows tonight, right? On February 13th, Ashley texted Caleb about Valentine's Day, quote, three questions. One, did we decide which restaurant we are going to tonight? Two, what would you like me to wear? Three, hot tub after? End quote. Caleb responded back, quote, I'm excited for Nyoki, surprise me, yes, end quote. So he's saying, I'm excited for this restaurant, surprise me with what you're gonna wear? Yes, hot tub. Does this sound like a man who's ignoring his wife, avoiding anything to do with her?

• 2:12:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Not at all, not at all.

• 2:12:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the timing on this is a little weird, because I think they went out for dinner on the 13th for Valentine's Day, because on Valentine's Day Caleb was suddenly not available for dinner or a dip in the hot tub with his wife who loved him. And that was because earlier that day, he had made some moves to ensure that Aaliyah Botner would talk to him again, and that they would be back into their toxic loop by the end of this big day of love and romance that he just couldn't stand to let pass Valentine's Day without making sure that he had Aaliyah in his grips again. And that's where we'll pick up next week.

• 2:13:25Derrick Levasseur?

  There's not much to add here, this was a long episode, we'll let you guys digest that and, you know, I, I think again, just as we're continuing to do this, to keep in mind that Caleb is the, is the perpetrator here, at least that's what it appears to be. And we're looking at Aaliyah and we're being critical of Aaliyah because justice is not completely served until all people responsible are held accountable. And we have to ensure that even though Caleb is on trial for this and there is an outcome and I'm not gonna spoil it for the few people who don't know, cause some of you are maybe hearing about this for the first time, especially overseas listeners or viewers. Yeah, it's, it's okay to consider that there are other accomplices that also need to be held accountable, like we talk about with Dan Markel and the potential that Wendy Adelson

• 2:14:10Derrick Levasseur?

  is somehow involved. Yeah, they got two people, they got her brother, they got her mother, but that's not enough. If there were more people involved, they need to be, they need to be brought to justice as well. So yeah, we're, we're happy with where it's gone so far in this case, but if there's more people who contributed to Ashley's death, they don't get to walk away scot-free. And that's why we're asking difficult questions and we're looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it. There's gonna be a lot of opinions on this one. This is a very polarizing case and there are multiple, there are multiple questions to be asked that aren't just related to the murder itself. And I think that's where it gets a little dicey and it's a little gray. And I think personal experiences will contribute to the, the opinions of this, because it's very subjective. But as always, we're looking forward to hearing your thoughts on it.

• 2:14:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Any final words from you, Stephanie?

• 2:14:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, let me ask you one question before we wrap up.

• 2:14:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, alright.

• 2:15:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  If Aaliyah Botner didn't exist, or had never crossed Caleb Flynn's path, would Ashley Flynn be alive today?

• 2:15:07Derrick Levasseur?

  You're probably gonna be surprised by my answer, but I would say probably yes, but also I could see a world where she wasn't. And the reason I say that is because.

• 2:15:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  He meets someone else.

• 2:15:16Derrick Levasseur?

  He would have found someone else.

• 2:15:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  But would that other person?

• 2:15:19Derrick Levasseur?

  He is the problem, he is the common denominator, for sure.

• 2:15:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, for sure, but would this other person, Natalia, have, I guess, interacted in this way and stayed in this dynamic for so long and put fuel in the fire about hating it? Would the other person have done that?

• 2:15:36Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I will say a hundred percent, even though I'm kind of pushing back on a lot with Aaliyah, her ambiguity and her communication skills and, and, and how she worded things, like I said, was either a really multiple poor choices, or she's smarter than we all know.

• 2:15:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm not saying that she's not smart.

• 2:15:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm, I'm just saying, like, if, if this is, just for the sake of this conversation, if we were to get inside Aaliyah's head and all along the plan was to slowly manipulate and plant seeds into Caleb's mind to the point where eventually her idea of murdering Ashley became his? Then she's, she's dark. She's deep. And I'm not saying it's not possible.

• 2:16:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  It is possible.

• 2:16:21Derrick Levasseur?

  But if it is, she fooled me so far. But I want to hear the rest of it. But she's definitely got me believing this is the case of someone who made a really poor choice on multiple occasions with her wording. And because she was vague, although I will acknowledge in her defense, there were points where she made it clear that she wasn't suggesting to actually kill her. However, for the people who are going to be with you, or at least more on that side, they're going to say, yes, that's exactly what she did. It was dozens and dozens of ambiguous comments that would lead him to believe she did want her dead. And yet she threw in some disclaimers there along the line to cover her unless it, in case it ever happened.

• 2:17:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, there were not ambiguous comments that she wanted Ashley dead. There were straightforward, outright comments where she said, I want her dead. And then there was ambiguous comments about like, how Ashley would be removed from the picture. Those were where the ambiguous comments came in. Because as many comments, there was more comments of her saying, I want her dead. I want her dead. Then there were comments of Aaliyah saying, but obviously I don't want you to kill her.

• 2:17:26Derrick Levasseur?

  That is fair. That is, that is objectively true. And I can't push back on it. So.

• 2:17:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  We can't wait to hear what you guys think about this.

• 2:17:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I can't wait. I think there's going to be, I think this episode, and you've talked about it, this episode is, is new right now. And a lot of people are, are, were following it during the trial. And because of all these storylines, it is something that people are latching on to. And, you know, we did it on Crime Weekly News, and it was something that you chose to do for a full Crime Weekly. And I, obviously, was the right choice. So we will look forward to your comments and concerns and your questions and, you know, keep it respectful on all fronts. But we're, we're always open for a good debate and a good discussion. And we hope you guys contribute to that, whether you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or you're on YouTube. You can follow us everywhere. And if you want the episodes ad free, don't forget, because this is a long one tonight. You can

• 2:18:17Derrick Levasseur?

  get that whether you're on YouTube membership, Crime Weekly Plus, or Patreon. All three platforms have those options. They do offer different things, depending on what you want. If you're more of a YouTube person, you get some custom emojis, and you get your name on there. If you're on Patreon, you get the discussion board and monthly lives and a bonus episode, which we just recorded earlier today. And then if you're on Crime Weekly Plus, you also get the bonus episode, and you get the ad free content as well. So plenty of options. Wherever you are, we will find you. Until next week, please, everyone stay safe out there. And we'll see you soon.

• 2:18:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.