Ashley Flynn | A Secret Affair, 107,000 Messages, One Murder (Part 1)

In the early morning hours of February 16th, 2026, Ashley Flynn was shot and killed inside the home she shared with her husband, Caleb, and their two daughters. Caleb told police that someone had broken into the house, murdered his wife, and disappeared. Up until that night, Caleb’s life had been deeply intertwined with Ashley’s. They had been married for fifteen years. They were raising two daughters together. They attended church together. Caleb worked for Ashley’s father, was close with her family, and had spent years building a life that was connected to hers in almost every possible way. But investigators would soon discover that there was another version of Caleb Flynn’s life. One that Ashley did not fully see. A secret relationship. Thousands upon thousands of messages. Lies, hidden accounts, deleted conversations, and a second life running parallel to the first. And as police began pulling those two lives apart, they also began uncovering something else: the story of what Ashley had been seeing, questioning, and trying to make sense of in the months before she died.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  In the early morning hours of February 16th, 2026, Ashley Flynn was shot and killed inside the home she shared with her husband Caleb and their two daughters. Caleb told police that someone had broken into the house, murdered his wife, and then just disappeared. Up until that night, Caleb Flynn's life had been deeply intertwined with his wife Ashley's. They had been married for 15 years. They were raising two daughters together. They attended church together. Caleb worked for Ashley's father. He was close with her family and had spent years building a life that was connected to hers in almost every possible way. But investigators would soon discover that there was another version of Caleb Flynn's

• 0:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  life, one that Ashley did not fully see. A secret relationship, thousands upon thousands of messages, lies, hidden accounts, deleted conversations, and a second life running parallel to the first. And as police began pulling those two lives apart, they also began uncovering something else. The story of what Ashley had been seeing, questioning, and trying to make sense of in the months before she died.

• 1:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 1:37Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 1:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  So obviously, as you can see, we are diving in to the Ashley Flynn case. I'm very, very much looking forward to doing this because I want to rip Caleb Flynn and Aliyah Botner apart.

• 1:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. We started to on our old Crime Weekly News.

• 1:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  All the available evidence to rip them apart is there in spades. So we are going to talk about this very in depth. There's a lot to talk about, but before we dive in, we have to send a quick shout out to Criminal Coffee, our coffee company, and the amazing sweatshirt, the amazing merch that Criminal Coffee has for the spooky Halloween season. I have mine with me here right now because if I get cold, I'm putting it on. I absolutely love it.

• 2:22Derrick Levasseur?

  I wore it into work today.

• 2:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  I love this sweatshirt.

• 2:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yours is upside down, but you know, we get the point.

• 2:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oops. I love this sweatshirt. I love the front.

• 2:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, the little fingerprint.

• 2:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  The red fingerprint bats. I love the very cool vintage Halloween kind of design on the back. I love the way it feels. I get mine a little bigger because I like it to be baggier, but totally up to you. You can get a small or a medium if you want it to be more fitted. I love mine. I actually have two.

• 2:51Derrick Levasseur?

  We have more in stock right now. I'm literally, I just brought up the boxes two days ago. So we have them in stock.

• 2:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we sold out. Everyone was mad. They're back in stock.

• 2:58Derrick Levasseur?

  They're back in stock. We have them and there's still time to get them. So if you want to do that, head over to CriminalCoffeeCo.com. Pick yours up right now. Also want to give a big shout out and thank you to everyone who came out to Crime Con UK and came by the booth and said hello or came to the speaking thing that I did. I really appreciate it. Everyone was missing you, Stephanie. But it is cool to go across the pond and still meet so many people who listen or watch us every single week. In fact, a lot of them were like, I wanted you to come, but at the same time, when you guys said you were going to be off the following week because of it, I was a little torn where I'm like, maybe I don't need to meet them. Maybe I just, I just need my episode.

• 3:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was a sacrifice.

• 3:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, it was, it was cool going over there, getting to meet everyone, chat about Crime Weekly. Stephanie, I was told to relay to you that they are in need of another UK series at some point. And I said, listen, I'll talk to the boss. I'll see what she says.

• 3:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, absolutely. Do they have recommendations? If you have recommendations for UK cases, send them over.

• 3:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Somebody actually gave me a book. They gave me a book about a case. I have it with me. I'll have to send it to you. But there's a few cases that, that they had mentioned. I wrote them down. I do have them and I will pass them along to you, boss. Salute. It's coming your way. But that was all I had. Thank you again. It's awesome that we get to do this and that. We're lucky enough to have people all over the world who, who listen or watch us. It's pretty cool.

• 4:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, let's talk about Ashley Flynn. So this is what the series is centered around. I don't want to lose her in this and it's very important to see the kind of life she lived before meeting Caleb, the kind of life she continued trying to live after meeting Caleb, and how he was basically, I think, pretending to have the same morals, the same values. I think Caleb very much is a wolf in sheep's clothing, but Ashley Elizabeth Flynn was born February 24th, 1988. Her parents were Todd and Jill Smith, and she had a younger sister Kayla, who she was very close to throughout her life. Ashley grew up in Tip City, Ohio. She graduated from Tip City High School in 2006 before attending Lee University in Cleveland,

• 5:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Tennessee. Lee is a private Christian university. Faith in God had been front and center throughout Ashley's childhood. And by the time she went to college, it was already a part of the environment in which she was building her adult life in. So while at Lee University, Ashley met Caleb Flynn, a young man from the small town of Braham, Minnesota. So Ashley was studying education. Caleb was studying pastoral and music ministry. And Caleb seemed like a good match for Ashley on paper because religion was also an integral part of his life and had been since he was a kid. Caleb's father, Michael, was a pastor who would serve at Open Arms Church for over two decades before retiring in 2014.

• 5:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Michael's wife, Kimberly, was right beside him, helping him lead their congregation. I have thoughts about Caleb's mother, Kimberly, but they'd be a little premature right now. But trust me, we are going to talk about Caleb's mom, Kim. So Caleb was reportedly performing in church and playing drums in his father's praise band from the time he was a kid. But music wasn't the only thing he was good at. Caleb was also a standout basketball player. He played guard on Braham High School teams that won back-to-back state championships in 2004 and 2005. And also going back to Lee University, Ashley wasn't the only Smith sister at Lee University. Her younger sister Kayla was there too, just about a year behind her.

• 6:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  And as Ashley's relationship with Caleb became more serious, the sisters' lives started overlapping in a way that would shape the entire family for years to come. Because through Caleb, Ashley's sister Kayla met Matthew, one of Caleb's college friends. So Caleb and Matt, they were friends. They moved in the same social circles at Lee. They were part of the same fraternity. And before long, the two sisters were dating the two friends. Ashley was with Caleb, Kayla was with Matt, and eventually both relationships turned into marriages. What started as two college relationships essentially fused the four of them into one extended family. Caleb and Ashley got married in 2010. They would go on to have two daughters together, Ava and Alyssa.

• 7:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  And from August of 2010 until June of 2015, Caleb worked as the Worship Arts Pastor at Living Word Church in Vandalia, Ohio. And during that time period, in 2013, Ashley encouraged her husband to audition for season 12 of American Idol.

• 7:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Boom.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  My name is Caleb Flynn. I'm from Tip City, Ohio. I audition because I'm sure everybody says it, but music is all I know. It's what I've lived to do and I love to sing. So that's why I auditioned. Maybe my wife kind of nudged me a little bit too. The person that inspires me to be an informer, I guess, would say, would say the Lord. I'm a music pastor and so that's my job every week is to go up there and to sing and to connect what I do on stage of the congregation. So first and foremost, obviously, is the Lord. Thing that makes me unique, you know, I absolutely love the Lord. I love my wife more than anything. She is very, very pretty, just, oof, I love her.

• 8:17Speaker 02

  But you know, I'm just a normal person who absolutely loves to sing more than anything in the world. And I think I have a different sound in my voice. I have something to offer. My favorite past Idol contestant would probably be Carrie Underwood. She's just absolutely incredible. Love her attitude and just her passion for, for what she does. And I promise you, if my wife dyed her hair blonde, she would look just like her. I'm the next American Idol because, you know, I can honestly say one thing about me is I love to learn.

• 8:51Derrick Levasseur?

  In hindsight, it's, it's weird listening back to that, right? Because he's claiming to be a certain person.

• 8:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he's just a normal person who loves music, loves his wife, and loves the Lord.

• 9:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, talking about Ashley in a certain light, very complimentary of her. She's the one who pushed him to even go out there and live his dream or try to fulfill his dream. And here we are, 2026, and the narrative has changed. And then you think about, because this isn't the first time I'm hearing of this case. We covered it on Crime Weekly News, so it's a little different. But getting a little bit of insight into some of the text messages that were sent, the way he was describing the same woman that he's describing in that video. It's how times have changed. And what year was that again?

• 9:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  That was 2013.

• 9:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow. So we're talking 13 years later.

• 9:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, just about three years after they got married. So, you know, 13 years later. But Caleb was in fact, not the next American Idol. He did not make it past the initial judge's audition. His audition was never aired and his elimination happened pretty quickly. So from 2015 until 2021, it looks like Caleb and Ashley lived in South Carolina, where Caleb worked as the Worship Director at Free Chapel in Spartanburg. In March of 2021, Ashley and Caleb purchased a home at 932 Cunningham Way in Tip City. So they relocated their family from South Carolina back to Ohio. Now, at that time, Ashley's family was already very familiar with Caleb and they liked him a lot. They considered him part of their family.

• 10:20Speaker 03

  And throughout the years, about 16 years or so, how was your relationship with the defendant? How frequently did you see him?

• 10:30Speaker 04

  Um, um, at least once a week.

• 10:34Speaker 03

  What kind of things would you do together?

• 10:36Speaker 04

  We vacationed a lot together.

• 10:41Speaker 04

  We get pizza on Sunday nights, maybe, stuff like that.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  How frequently would you say you vacationed together?

• 10:48Speaker 04

  Maybe 25 times. Every year they were married, except for the last. We went to Gatlinburg in October. That was a family vacation.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  And how well did you know Caleb fun?

• 11:01Speaker 04

  He was family. I called him my brother.

• 11:03Speaker 03

  What was your relationship with him like?

• 11:05Speaker 04

  Again, in our family, he's your family, we're family. So I called him my brother and would have done anything for him. We did life together all day, every day, because he was part of the family business.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  How long have you known the defendant?

• 11:22Speaker 05

  I guess close to 17 years, 16 or 17 years.

• 11:26Speaker 03

  When did you first meet him?

• 11:28Speaker 05

  Ash had us come down and we went to a little restaurant.

• 11:34Speaker 05

  And I met him for the first time there.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  Was that when Ashley and Caleb were in college?

• 11:39Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 11:40Speaker 03

  And throughout the years, what was your relationship with the defendant like?

• 11:44Speaker 05

  I thought it was great. I thought it was great. We vacationed together. We did mission trips together. We remodeled two of their houses. We remodeled a little lake house. We did lots, almost everything together, it seemed like, lots together.

• 12:00Speaker 03

  Did you work together?

• 12:01Speaker 05

  Yes, we did.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  You previously stated you did a lot of things with the defendant, is that correct?

• 12:05Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 12:06Speaker 03

  Did you vacation together?

• 12:07Speaker 05

  Yes, we did.

• 12:08Speaker 03

  How frequently?

• 12:09Speaker 05

  Usually a couple of times a year. I would say, so that would be close to 30 times would be my guess.

• 12:15Speaker 03

  Who paid for those?

• 12:16Speaker 05

  Um, we would try to do, take care of the lodging and do that and some of the meals.

• 12:22Derrick Levasseur?

  I gotta say, the years haven't been good to Caleb, and the hair just ran up his forehead.

• 12:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he looks like Mr. Burns in the courtroom. I mean, I can't, I can't, I mean, even in the 2013 video where he's American Idol, right? He's not a prize. This is not somebody I'd be like, damn, that man's fine, like, mm, give me some Caleb. No, but in the courtroom?

• 12:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he's struggling.

• 12:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, that's, that's what, that's what a demon inside of you will do to you, I guess.

• 12:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Wears you down.

• 12:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  It wears you down. So in that clip, we heard from Ashley's mother, Jill, Ashley's sister, Kayla, and Ashley's father, Todd. And it really broke my heart because this was an incredibly, incredibly, incredibly close family. You could hear, they do everything together. Pizza on Sunday nights. They're going on a family vacation at least once, if not twice, a year. And they're, they're all kind of really integral in each other's lives. Because at that time, Ashley's father, Todd Smith, was the sole owner of a tip city company called Richard Smith and Sons. This was a commercial flooring and worship interior, third generation family business that was established in 1972. So they do like interiors for churches and stuff, you know, pews, flooring, stuff like that.

• 13:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  By 2025, Todd Smith was seriously considering retirement. I mean, he's getting up there in age. He's been working his ass off with this business for a while. He's very much like dedicated to the business. But he was still actively involved in the business when he's considering retirement, as were most other members of the family. His youngest daughter, Kayla, handled the accounting, the bookkeeping, the finances. His son-in-law, Matthew, Kayla's husband, had worked as a salesman and project manager at the company since 2013. And when Caleb and Ashley moved back from South Carolina in 2021, Todd Smith extended the same offer to Caleb. He was like, come on and work at my company as a salesperson.

• 14:16Derrick Levasseur?

  I gotta tell you too, flooring companies, a lot of money.

• 14:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they were doing well, yeah.

• 14:21Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know how well Richard Smith and Sons was doing, but I have to imagine if he's building out sales teams and all this stuff, he's probably doing pretty well.

• 14:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bringing them on vacation, yeah.

• 14:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, there's, there's a lot of money in flooring, for sure. It's not like you think, oh, just some tile work. No, no, no, it's expensive.

• 14:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, this was a, a well-established, thriving business. So Ashley had also become involved in the family business, but she'd only become directly involved shortly before her death. And she was being brought on as a social media director and sales coordinator. But before that, nearly every major role in Ashley's life involved children. So teaching, coaching, or church. She'd previously worked as a teacher in the Tip City school system. Later, she worked as a substitute teacher. She taught with Life Wise Academy, an organization that provides Bible-based religious instruction to participating public school students. And she coached 7th grade girls volleyball at Tippecanoe Middle School.

• 15:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So if we look at the life of Caleb at this time, you could say it was a good one. I would say it was. But, but most of what was good about his life came through his marriage to Ashley. He had two beautiful daughters with Ashley. They had a lovely home that Ashley made warm and inviting. And in 2025, Caleb was making $200,000 a year working for Ashley's family business. And his father-in-law, Todd, considered him a good worker, somebody that was important to the company and somebody that Todd genuinely enjoyed being around. Todd said that he, Matthew, and Caleb called themselves the A-Team because of how well they worked together on renovation jobs. So the three men would go out, they'd have to like, you know, if they're putting in new pews or new floors, they're renovating.

• 16:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he was like, yeah, it was always me and my two son-in-laws, and we were the A-Team. And that's how people knew us, because we were just really good at working together. Caleb was going on vacations at least twice a year with Ashley's family, paid for by Ashley's parents, Todd and Jill Smith, who were also, yes, who were also on top of this, we found out during the trial. Todd and Jill were providing separate financial support to the families of their children. Because instead of waiting until he and Jill passed away and then leaving Ashley and Kayla a large inheritance, they decided to start giving some of that money to their daughters while they were still alive, specifically so they could watch their children and their grandchildren enjoy it.

• 16:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Makes sense to me.

• 16:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it was really nice. And, and Todd had an acronym for it, but basically it was like, we want you guys to have experiences that bring you closer together as a family.

• 16:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Dude, I actually agree with that. I mean, I know it's like a different conversation for a different day, but you know, if you can help out people now and get to see what your hard work is allowing your loved ones, your children to do and experience, that actually sounds pretty friggin' smart.

• 17:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  This was a good family, the Smiths, like, just really, I wish they'd been my family. I was like, man.

• 17:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Adopt me.

• 17:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, seriously, like, you guys are awesome.

• 17:16Derrick Levasseur?

  We'll take some money. Adopt us.

• 17:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and you hate to hear it, because how Caleb talked about Todd and Jill and Ashley's entire family when he's talking to his mistress was just horrendous, like, ungrateful, horrible, yeah.

• 17:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolute piece of shit.

• 17:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Todd and Jill started giving their daughters this money a few years before Ashley's death. And at first, Todd and Jill would give the families a lump sum at the end of the year and encourage them to use it for something the whole family could enjoy. Later, they shifted to more regular monthly payments of $800 a month. So they're giving them $800 a month. And Todd described the purpose as helping the families make memories together. The money could be used for things like the girls' activities or music lessons, weekend trips, vacations, or other experiences the whole family would enjoy. So even the church that Caleb had joined and become strongly connected to, the Christian Life Center, was the church of Ashley's entire family.

• 18:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Caleb was heavily involved in the worship ministry at Christian Life Center, although he wasn't technically a full-time employee of the church. He volunteered on the worship team and also worked at times as a contracted worship leader, helping lead music during weekend services and taking on additional worship responsibilities. So the worship team, I'm not familiar with how these go, but from now on, when I talk about the church, I won't say Christian Life Center. I'll say CLC, because that's how it's referred to during testimony. That's how it's referred to.

• 18:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, it's probably easier to just go with the acronym.

• 18:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, CLC. So at, at some churches like CLC, a worship team is basically just like the music. You know, every time they have a service on Saturday and Sunday, there's this whole music experience that the service is basically built around, live instruments, live singing, just a whole song and dance show. And so Caleb was very heavily involved with the worship team, which was the music of the services. And Ashley, his wife, was also active at CLC, where she volunteered and was deeply known by the church and involved in the church. And if all of that wasn't enough, life for Ashley and Caleb was about to get better because Todd Smith, Ashley's father, was approaching his time of retirement.

• 19:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we're gonna take a quick break, and I'm gonna tell you how good life for Caleb was about to get.

• 19:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, I can, you can see the writing on the wall.

• 19:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to Talkiiatry for sponsoring this episode. Finding mental health care can feel like a whole project. And it's always that project that happens during the time when you're not mentally capable of taking on a project. You're looking for someone who's accepting patients, someone who takes your insurance, and has appointments available before your calendar moves into another season.

• 20:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and that's a lot to navigate when you're already having a hard time.

• 20:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly, that's what I'm saying. When anxiety, depression, ADHD, or other mental health challenges are affecting your daily life, figuring out where to start can feel overwhelming. So Talkiiatry helps make that first step more straightforward. And that first step is really what's important, getting started. Talkiiatry is a 100% online psychiatry practice that provides comprehensive evaluations, diagnoses, and ongoing medical management for conditions like ADHD, anxiety, depression, and more. You meet with a licensed clinician who can evaluate what's going on, build a personalized treatment plan, and even prescribe medication if it's appropriate for you.

• 20:38Derrick Levasseur?

  I think one of the most important things with Talkiiatry is that when you're feeling down and you're not, we've all been there, you're not in that that mental state where you even want to leave your house, you can make an appointment online.

• 20:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Getting started takes just a few minutes. Actually, it's really easy. You complete a short online assessment, you're going to get matched with clinicians who fit your needs, and you can schedule your first visit in days rather than months. So Talkiiatry also accepts major insurers, so you can find an in-network provider through your existing insurance. That's an important part of the search that you don't have to figure out entirely on your own.

• 21:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, also, another major point is you're not seeing a different person every time. The same person will stick with you throughout the process.

• 21:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep, you're going to continue with the same provider for consistent personalized care. You're not introducing yourself and explaining your entire history to someone new at every appointment. And that ongoing relationship means you have someone who can follow how you're doing, discuss questions, concerns, yep, even adjust your treatment plan. So having that continuity really matters. More than 300,000 patients have already found psychiatric care through Talkiiatry. And if you've been putting off looking for care because the process feels like too much, first of all, I feel you. And second of all, this is going to give you a clear place to start. Head to talkiatry.com/crimeweekly to complete the short assessment and get matched with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y.com/crimeweekly to get matched in minutes.

• 22:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Once again, talkiatry.com/crimeweekly.

• 22:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back from our break. So in August of 2025, Ashley's parents, Todd and Jill, met with financial advisors to discuss what would happen to Richard Smith & Sons once Todd stepped back. And they mapped out a succession plan. So Ashley and her sister Kayla would eventually own the company 50/50 when Todd retired. Kayla was already handling the books. Both Kayla and Ashley's husbands worked in the sales and project management team, and Ashley was stepping into a role involving social media and sales coordination. Ashley's brother-in-law, Matthew, testified that they decided Ashley would be a good fit for this position because when they needed someone to call churches or clients, they would put Ashley on the phone because she was so friendly and bubbly.

• 22:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Kayla testified that in August of 2025, she called both her husband Matt and Ashley's husband Caleb into her office to show them the numbers, to show them the projected growth figures for Todd's company. And these numbers were very positive. They suggested that each family could eventually be making $300,000 to $400,000 a year on top of what Caleb was already making in his current position, which was $200,000. Okay, so we're looking at, when Todd retires, which is coming up here, Caleb and Ashley are going to be making about $600,000 a year, which is tripled what Caleb's already making, and they're already doing well.

• 23:36Derrick Levasseur?

  So the business was doing well.

• 23:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 23:38Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what we're getting at.

• 23:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And it was about to get better for Caleb and Ashley.

• 23:42Derrick Levasseur?

  This guy has everything. He's got a great family, great wife, beautiful children.

• 23:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Beautiful wife, beautiful children, beautiful home.

• 23:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Parent-in-law, you know, the in-laws are extremely successful, have embraced them as one of their own.

• 23:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kind, giving.

• 23:54Derrick Levasseur?

  If you said this like to anybody, like, okay, so that's like the perfect scenario.

• 23:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's the perfect scenario, right?

• 24:00Derrick Levasseur?

  You would think.

• 24:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  You'd think, not for Caleb, apparently.

• 24:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Not for Caleb.

• 24:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Everything good and important that Caleb had was because of Ashley, which he should have been grateful for and recognized. And in general, he should have been grateful to have a wife and a partner like Ashley. She was known as someone who led with her warmth and kindness and who positively impacted people in her life. 17-year-old Savannah Clausen, who knew Ashley through church and volleyball, remembered Ashley as encouraging, uplifting, kind, funny. She said Ashley took every opportunity she could to demonstrate her faith through how she treated people. But if there was one role that seemed to sit at the center of Ashley's life, it was being a mother. Ava and Alyssa were the center point of Ashley's purpose.

• 24:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  She kept notes in her phone about things that she wanted to teach her daughters, about limiting screen time because she was worried that they were on screens too much. She made notes about helping them learn to pray and read, and about making sure that she and her husband Caleb were on the same page as parents. She posted pictures of her daughters on social media, talking about how proud and grateful she was to have them as children. And just days before she died, Ashley planned a Galentine's night for Ava and Alyssa. She washed and styled their hair, they did facials and nails, they made special food, they baked cookies, they watched Cinderella together. And the girls loved this evening with their mother so much that they decided it should become an annual tradition.

• 25:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And as much as Ashley adored her daughters, she was equally adored by her parents. Her mother Jill testified that she and Ashley had had a wonderful relationship and they talked every day. And her father Todd testified that he and Jill considered themselves incredibly fortunate with their daughters, and that they'd always been an extremely close and tight-knit family.

• 25:50Speaker 03

  What was your relationship with Ashley like?

• 25:53Speaker 05

  Incredible. I always says God gave two perfect daughters. I had both of them. Ashley was very special. We always had a fun, laughing relationship, and she's probably the most encouraging person I've ever had. She always would send encouraging, affirming notes, but yeah, we had a wonderful relationship.

• 26:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's terrible.

• 26:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Breaks my heart, yeah.

• 26:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, we're going to talk about this throughout the series, but it's very clear really early on in this, in this story, that Caleb did have everything. Every box was checked. And a lot of you are going to ask the question, as will we, why wouldn't he just leave?

• 26:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  What the hell is wrong with him?

• 26:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, well, that too. But why wouldn't he just leave? The picture that you're painting here is explaining that, giving you the answer to that question.

• 26:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, right.

• 26:47Derrick Levasseur?

  It's about the money, because he could have gotten out of this.

• 26:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  He could have divorced her, but then he's not going to work at the family company anymore.

• 26:54Derrick Levasseur?

  He's not going to get anything.

• 26:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's not going to be welcome at church anymore.

• 26:56Derrick Levasseur?

  No, that too.

• 26:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Especially considering who he was stepping out with.

• 27:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Which I don't even know if he was concerned about that, because let's be honest, let's be, this is not a good person. But I think for him, being, being an asshole and being who he really is, like behind the mask, he wanted the new girlfriend, but he also wanted the money. He wanted the businesses. And if he could-

• 27:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  He wanted the life that Ashley provided him, but not with her.

• 27:18Derrick Levasseur?

  He wanted to basically substitute this other person in for Ashley. He wanted everything else, the same template, but just Ashley, you gotta go. That's really what we're talking about.

• 27:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  The person who makes it all possible.

• 27:31Derrick Levasseur?

  So I mean, like, when you think about it, like, everything was good. Ashley treated him great, but unfortunately, she was-

• 27:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  She loved him. She, she truly loved him. That's what's pissing me off so much.

• 27:41Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and the way he's looking at it is, oh, you're in my way of being happy.

• 27:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're in my way of having the life I want, which 99% of it you have provided for me.

• 27:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, yep. I mean, it sounds, it's not as complex as people sometimes want to make it out to be. The guy was just selfish.

• 27:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Selfish and stupid and ungrateful. So this does break my heart, because like I said, Todd, he's a man. He's a strong, traditional, old-fashioned kind of man. He loves God.

• 28:08Derrick Levasseur?

  You can tell, I mean, from that quick video, I mean, he's squared-away guy.

• 28:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 28:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Got his shit together, looks good, takes care of himself.

• 28:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he's trying very hard to keep it together on the stand throughout his testimony.

• 28:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Probably wants to jump over that stand and choke Caleb out.

• 28:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  And just imagine, you have welcomed this man into your life, into your family, into your business, in every aspect of your life, you've given him everything to show that he's accepted, loved, and has a place with your family, which is a great family, better than he deserved. And he responds and returns your acts of kindness and acceptance by taking your child from you forever and taking the mother of your grandchildren from them forever. It's hard. And Todd's talking about how supportive Ashley was to him and how she just encouraged him. And a lot of people described Ashley that way, encouraging, supportive. In fact, a few of Ashley's friends said that this had been her role in her marriage with Caleb since the beginning. Ashley always supported Caleb in whatever he wanted to do, and she

• 29:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  encouraged him to explore himself and the world and try new things and step out of his comfort zone. Now, from the outside, Caleb and Ashley had built the kind of life that looked remarkably solid. Over a decade of what seemed to be a strong marriage with no out of the ordinary issues. I mean, every marriage has issues, but nothing crazy or out of the ordinary. They had two daughters they adored, a close extended family, a church community, a beautiful home, and a future that seemed very financially secure. But underneath all of that, another relationship had started to take shape. Back in the summer of 2022, Caleb met a young woman named Aleah Botner through the Christian Life Center,

• 29:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  the same church Caleb attended with Ashley and her family. And at that time, when he first met her, Aleah was an intern under the church's main worship leader, Zach Nelson, and Caleb volunteered on the worship team. And if you're like me, and you don't know what a worship team is, like I said, it's basically a group of people who lead the music portion of a church service. The worship leader is usually the person at the front, singing and guiding the music, and then other members of the worship team may sing harmonies or play instruments. They usually rehearse during the week, and then they perform at one or more weekend services. And later on, as the years go by, Aleah is going to be promoted to a worship leader. Okay, so she's going to have more responsibility.

• 30:30Derrick Levasseur?

  I wonder who promoted her?

• 30:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  It wasn't Caleb, but

• 30:32Derrick Levasseur?

  It wasn't, huh?

• 30:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, because he didn't have that kind of power.

• 30:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Not yet.

• 30:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  But, you know, I think Aleah, I don't know if I'm being mean, but I don't like this woman. Okay, so I don't care.

• 30:42Derrick Levasseur?

  We know from your social posts, from your CWN. I don't think anybody is confused about your feelings towards Aleah Botner.

• 30:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  I just don't, I don't want people to be like, oh, you're blaming the woman. I'm blaming them both. But I think Aleah, you can look at her and be like, she was just a young girl. She was manipulative in her own rights.

• 30:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, the ultimate blame falls on Caleb.

• 31:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Of course, and I've said that.

• 31:01Derrick Levasseur?

  He pulled the trigger.

• 31:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've said that a million times, and I hope I don't have to keep saying it.

• 31:04Derrick Levasseur?

  And to a certain degree, and we can get in this, he was manipulating her as well.

• 31:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  They were manipulating each other, for sure.

• 31:10Derrick Levasseur?

  But I do think, based on the text messages and things that she said, she absolutely did not help the situation at all. And I think you're warranted in your feelings toward her, and you're not alone in that sentiment.

• 31:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was very manipulative, and we'll see that in the text messages.

• 31:24Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, the videos that she was making, yeah, there's a lot of shit there that we can really unpack. She's not completely innocent in this whole ordeal, although

• 31:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's not innocent at all.

• 31:34Derrick Levasseur?

  She didn't pull the trigger. So for anybody saying like, oh, how are you going to put more blame on her than him? That's not what we're doing.

• 31:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, no. And I hope I don't have to reiterate that.

• 31:41Derrick Levasseur?

  But you do, you know this world we live in.

• 31:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, Caleb is to blame for what he did. Aleah is to blame for what she did. Okay, so, no, at the time of meeting in the summer of 2022, Aleah was 20 years old, and Caleb was like 36 or 37, which, ew, gross. I'm grossed out. I'm grossed out by that. That's a good 16 to 17 year difference. It's gross. Now, even though Ashley's family was well-known at the church, Aleah claims that at first she didn't know Caleb was married because he didn't wear his wedding ring. But it wasn't long before she discovered he did have a wife, and she even met Ashley. I think when Aleah's like, I didn't know at first, that means she didn't know for like two days. Because if you're at that church, you know

• 32:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ashley and you know her family, you know the Smiths. And the first time you ask anybody like, oh, is Caleb in a relationship? They're gonna be like, yeah, his wife, Ashley, she's awesome. She's over there. She's right over there, actually, volunteering and doing work. I don't think it was Aleah not knowing for months or even weeks. I think she knew pretty, pretty shortly in. Now, Aleah claimed that for a while their relationship was completely professional, but all of that changed in March of 2024.

• 32:52Speaker 05

  Can you describe how the nature of your relationship changed?

• 32:55Speaker 04

  So, I got out of a five month long relationship in January. And I always noticed that during that relationship, because the guy I was dating was on the worship team, Caleb was always distant whenever I was around him, or whenever he would serve on the worship team. He was always, you know, super extroverted with everyone else, but was always distant towards me and this guy whenever I was with him. And so after we broke up, I noticed Caleb was starting to come in my life a little bit more and become more friendly again. And

• 33:33Speaker 04

  he started texting me more. It would start with just iMessage games. We were sending friendly text messages, and it turned into texting every day. In my heart, I never thought it would be anything more than that. But towards the end of that month, March of 2024, Caleb would ask to, it started with small things. He would ask to come over just to hug me. And then he would, he would come over, he would hug me, and then he'd leave.

• 34:11Speaker 05

  And at this time, you were married?

• 34:12Speaker 04

  Yes, he did.

• 34:14Derrick Levasseur?

  You can see what he's doing there. I mean, it's weird, but I also think, and I want your opinion on this as a woman, and I know the majority of our audience are women as well, which is like, how old exactly was she at this time?

• 34:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, when they were texting every day?

• 34:31Derrick Levasseur?

  When, yeah, when she was doing the, he's coming over for a hug.

• 34:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, 22. She's 22.

• 34:35Derrick Levasseur?

  So she's, she's a woman, in my opinion, at this point. And, and so you're a young woman, but you're still a woman. And you have to know, I would think, and I'm asking you this question because I don't, but if a guy's saying, hey, can I come over for a hug? Do you go into that thinking, this is the, the beginning and the end? This is as much as he wants?

• 34:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, no.

• 34:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Is that fair for me to say? Like, you have to know there's going to be an escalation.

• 35:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  You knew, she knew. I'm sorry. It is weird that a 22 year old woman would be texting with an almost 40 year old married man every single day and not realize there was something very, very, very inappropriate about that, right?

• 35:15Derrick Levasseur?

  It's, it's clearly going somewhere. It's

• 35:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  You wouldn't want that. If you were married, Aleah, would you want your husband texting with some other woman every single day? Would that be okay with you? Because that's always the question you have to ask yourself. I'm doing something with a man who has a whole ass wife and children at home. What, what I'm doing with this man, would I be okay if I was married and my husband or my partner was doing that to me with some other woman? No, the answer is no, Aleah. Aleah, stop. I didn't know where it was going. You knew where it was going.

• 35:46Derrick Levasseur?

  The hug thing, the hug thing is just weird to me.

• 35:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's so weird. Caleb's weird.

• 35:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Like, hey, I'm gonna come over for a hug. And so I'm trying to envision what that looks like.

• 35:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Can I just come over for a friendly hug? And she even said, oh, when I was dating this other guy in the worship team, Caleb was very cold to me. What do you, of course, because he likes, he's into you, right? Him being cold to you when, when you and your boyfriend are around. And then all of a sudden, you break up with that boyfriend, and all of a sudden, now Caleb wants to text you every day and he wants hugs. What do you think that means, Aleah?

• 36:16Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. Can you like envision what that looks like? Hey, comes by, hey, how are you? Gives a hug. There's like a moment of silence.

• 36:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, he's texting her and like, can I have a hug?

• 36:25Derrick Levasseur?

  And then like after the hug, is it like, all right, thanks. I'll see you later.

• 36:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, because then he probably left after the hug and he was like, I loved holding you in my arms.

• 36:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we should have hugged longer.

• 36:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can still feel the tingling on my skin where your, where your body was in my arms for such a short moment. I wish that I could hold you forever.

• 36:47Derrick Levasseur?

  It's not quite that, but what's it called? Soaking?

• 36:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  What?

• 36:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Soaking, do you know what that is?

• 36:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  No.

• 36:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, it's a thing. I hope I'm saying it right, but it's basically like laying on top of each other but not having sex. You've never heard of this?

• 37:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Foreplay?

• 37:04Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 37:09Derrick Levasseur?

  No. That's a weird type of foreplay, just laying there.

• 37:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Soaking?

• 37:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Soaking.

• 37:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  What are we soaking in?

• 37:16Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm looking at, I'm looking, I want to make sure I say this right. Okay, I'm looking this up on Wikipedia. Okay, soaking is a sexual practice of, oh, there's a little bit more than that. Soaking is a sexual practice of inserting the penis into the vagina, but not subsequently thrusting or ejaculating. You're just soaking.

• 37:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're just soaking?

• 37:36Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a thing. And it's said to be used by some Mormons, also known as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

• 37:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why?

• 37:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Soaking is reportedly a loophole to the LDS church. There are strict rules against premarital sex.

• 37:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, my God.

• 37:56Derrick Levasseur?

  So soaking is not considered sex if you're not thrusting or ejaculating.

• 38:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Stop it. I'm so, I can't take it. Because you know very well, ain't nobody going in there and just soaking. But then later, you know, the guy's gonna be like, no, I didn't do anything. I was, I was just soaking. You didn't not thrust, my dude. Stop it.

• 38:16Derrick Levasseur?

  So I'm surprised you being the

• 38:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  I feel like that would take more like self-control to be soaking than to just not insert it to begin with. What are we trying to do to ourselves here?

• 38:29Derrick Levasseur?

  So this is, this is like his version of soaking. It's like just we're hugging, but it's not going anywhere. It's the steps towards soaking.

• 38:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  He texts her afterward, and he's like, I enjoyed soaking in your arms earlier at the LLC.

• 38:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, now you know, as part of the LDS expert here, you've covered a lot of cases involving that church. This is a thing, and I, I actually taught you something today.

• 38:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've never, never heard of this, and I wish I hadn't, because now

• 38:54Derrick Levasseur?

  There are people in the comments I know who have heard of this, for sure. It's like, it's a legit thing.

• 38:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wow. Wow. Okay. Well, listen. Oh, weird.

• 39:03Derrick Levasseur?

  We went a little bit off on a sidetrack there.

• 39:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's okay. That's okay.

• 39:06Derrick Levasseur?

  I think that's a good spot for a break, actually.

• 39:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I think that's a good spot for a break, so I can process.

• 39:10Derrick Levasseur?

  We'll reset. Let's reset this.

• 39:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  I need to soak in this information.

• 39:13Derrick Levasseur?

  You need to soak this all in.

• 39:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I need to soak it all in.

• 39:14Derrick Levasseur?

  There's gonna be endowendos throughout the episode now, making references to soaking.

• 39:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  We'll be right back.

• 39:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to Factor for sponsoring this episode. So Factor's been great for me because when I'm deep into researching a case, I'll stop and eat in a minute can become a very extended period of time. And then suddenly I'm starving and I have absolutely no interest in chopping a vegetable.

• 39:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and unfortunately, or fortunately, however you want to look at it, dinner still shows up on the schedule every single day. Got to eat.

• 39:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's the thing. You could not be hungry, but everyone in your house is starving.

• 39:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Still looking at you like, what are we gonna do?

• 39:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  And you know, I want an actual meal at that point, right? But between work, the kids, everything else going on, I don't always want it to become another task on my agenda. So Factor makes chef crafted, dietitian designed, ready to eat meals. So you don't have to choose between real food and convenience. They're delivered to your door and the meals are ready in just two minutes. No prep, no cooking, a bunch of different things, no pile of pots and pans afterward, which is my favorite part.

• 40:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, two minutes is less time than it takes usually to decide on what you want to order. So it's expedient.

• 40:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  And especially when everyone says they don't care what we eat and then they immediately have several objections over what I decided to prepare. But with Factor, you can choose your meals ahead of time and you can have them ready in the fridge. So when you get a break in your day, you can actually use it instead of spending the entire break figuring out lunch and waiting for it to get there. And there are over 100 nutrient dense menu items to choose from every week. They've got the salmon burgers, which I think you said you liked the salmon burgers, didn't you?

• 40:47Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't like them. I love them.

• 40:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, you love them.

• 40:50Derrick Levasseur?

  I love salmon and I'm really picky about my salmon.

• 40:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 40:54Derrick Levasseur?

  And if it wasn't good, I would just not say it, you know? It's like, okay, no, they're delicious and I always make sure that they're in my order.

• 41:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Factor also has add-ons like protein shakes and pumpkin flavored cheesecakes, which also feels very appropriate for this time of year. I have tried those.

• 41:09Derrick Levasseur?

  You had me at cheesecake.

• 41:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  But this variety really matters because convenience is a lot more useful when you're looking forward to what you're eating. So having something ready to heat and eat is such a practical way to make room for a proper meal on a busy day. Your schedule doesn't have to calm down first. So let's eat real. Head to factormeals.com/crimeweekly50off and use code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until 10/31/2026. That's code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF at factormeals.com. See website for more details.

• 41:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Aaliyah and Caleb, they are kind of changing their relationship dynamic in March of 2024. And now they're texting all the time. He's asking for hugs. They're soaking. And not actually soaking, but soaking in each other's spirits and energy during their hugs.

• 42:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Their auras.

• 42:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so then-

• 42:06Derrick Levasseur?

  They're soaking in their embrace.

• 42:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're soaking in the embrace. So then Aaliyah, according to her, the relationship between herself and Caleb turned sexual just a few months later in May of 2024.

• 42:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Shocker.

• 42:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which is once again, it's like, I had no idea this was coming. No, March, April, May, okay?

• 42:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Who would thunk it?

• 42:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Three months, you're all of a sudden no longer just texting and hugging and it's sexual. But she's like, I had no idea it was gonna go in this drive. Shut up, shut up. Now, from everything that I could find before Aaliyah Botner, there were no issues or problems in Caleb and Ashley's marriage. And I looked, okay, I looked. In 2012, Ashley started a Twitter account and there she proclaimed her love for Caleb at least weekly, if not daily. This was over a year after they'd gotten married and for Ashley, the honeymoon was not over. On February 14th, 2012, Ashley posted, quote, "I have the most incredible husband. Blessed is an understatement. #HeadOverHeels," end quote. 10 days later, Ashley posted about having an amazing birthday, writing, quote,

• 43:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  "My husband sure is good to me," end quote. The following month, Ashley talked about how Caleb wanted her to train with him for a half marathon. Apparently Ashley attempted to start running after this, even though running was not her thing. It was Caleb's thing, but she wanted to be able to share in something he was passionate about. Remember, Ashley's always encouraging Caleb, supporting him. On March 23rd, Ashley posted a picture of the two of them together and wrote, quote, "I'm in love, I'm in love and I don't care who knows it," end quote. The following day, she wrote that her trainer, Caleb, had pushed her from three to five miles that day. By March 30th, she had made it six miles in the rain. On April 1st, Ashley posted, quote, "I love being married," end quote. A week later, Ashley talked about how they had run eight miles that day

• 43:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  and she just needed to figure out how to add five more miles to that by May 5th, which is when they were gonna run the half marathon. And when Caleb was out of town for work, Ashley wrote about missing him, having separation anxiety and wanting him home because they were, quote, "better together," end quote. On April 21st, Ashley posted a picture of her and her hot date, Caleb. On May 5th, Ashley and Caleb ran and completed their half marathon in Columbus, Ohio, and she posted a picture of the two of them together after the race. Quote, "We can now check it off on the bucket list. We did it," end quote. And this picture, which we'll show you if you're watching on YouTube, Ashley looks amazing. I wish I looked at any time of the day the way Ashley Flynn looked after running a half marathon.

• 44:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  This was a beautiful woman, inside and out. There was nothing Caleb was missing from this relationship to her. She was physically beautiful. She was spiritually beautiful. It's horrible. Now, that same day, Ashley congratulated her brother for graduating that day. But Ashley doesn't have a brother because it wasn't technically her brother. It was Caleb's brother. So she's encouraging Caleb, she's encouraging his family. She's all about everything to do with loving and taking care of the people in her life. On May 13th, Ashley wished a happy birthday to her best friend and the love of her life, Caleb Flynn. And later she wrote, quote, "You make it so easy to spoil you. Happy birthday to the world's greatest husband," end quote. She read books about how to love her husband better and she posted pictures with Caleb with the hashtag best friends.

• 45:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  She talked about how she had the hottest husband in the world, how she loved hanging out with Caleb, how being married was fun, how she loved nights where she and Caleb would relax on the front porch together, how they would worship Jesus together. In November of 2012, Ashley wrote, quote, "Hearing my hubby sing and play Coldplay on the piano. Phew, H-O-T-T," end quote. The following month, again, quotes-

• 45:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Not the double T.

• 45:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, the double T, okay?

• 45:44Derrick Levasseur?

  It's the double T. That's significant.

• 45:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I feel like for any man, by the way, if the woman you're with finds you to be absolutely gorgeous beyond comprehension and talks about it all the time, you've won the lottery, okay? And if she continues talking about that, you've won the lottery. You really only need one woman.

• 46:01Derrick Levasseur?

  We all know we're going downhill.

• 46:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  You need one woman to be attracted to you, totally head over heels, and Ashley was for Caleb. The following month, again, quote, "Seriously, being married is the best," end quote. A few days later, she said, quote, "Caleb C. Flynn obsessed. Yes, yes, I am. I am obsessed with being married to you," end quote. Every time Caleb was speaking at church, Ashley hyped him up and talked about how proud she was of him. Every small moment they shared, from watching a movie at home to driving in the car together, Ashley expressed how grateful and blessed she felt for those small moments. And in February of 2020, Caleb was gushing about his wife on Twitter. Quote, "Happy birthday to this beauty. Not enough words describe this amazing woman,

• 46:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  but like the picture shows, she is pure joy and positivity wrapped up in a Wonder Woman shell. No greater," end quote. And he also said, quote, "My Valentine is hotter than yours, just saying. Love Ashley Flynn more than words could ever say. I am a blessed man," end quote. And you were, Caleb. So what happened between the winter of 2020, when Caleb is gushing about Ashley and obviously appreciating who she is and what she brings to his life? And then when Caleb decided in 2022 that he wanted to throw it all away and start a relationship with someone new while still married?

• 47:16Speaker 04

  Caleb expressed that he had feelings for me. And he said that the reason why he thinks it's okay to have those feelings is because his wife cheated on him. Two years before 2024, he told me that she cheated on him. And he told me that he only sees her as a roommate.

• 47:39Speaker 04

  That the only time they ever talk is from picking the girls up from school, dropping them off.

• 47:46Speaker 04

  He told me that he hates her. He told me the only reason why he's still with her is because of the girls.

• 47:54Speaker 04

  And then he lost his chance to divorce her because it's already been two years and it's happened. And he just, he didn't yell back. He was completely alone. And I shouldn't have. Um, but I think him telling me that she cheated on him and they're just living as roommates. At first I was strong and I, I said, this isn't okay. We shouldn't do this. I still care about you, but you know, you're married. And then he kept pursuing and

• 48:25Speaker 04

  it just started with little things and then it grew like cancer and I found myself in a place I never thought I would be. So I, I never morally justified it. I just did it even while I knew it was wrong.

• 48:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Given that she's not trying to make excuses for it. She's saying, I knew it was wrong and I still did it. So I know you don't have a lot of positive things to say about Aaliyah.

• 48:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, she did try to make excuses. She said, oh, him telling me that, that she cheated and they were living as roommates made it seem like it was okay. She did make excuses. Stop being nice to Aaliyah.

• 48:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm just, I'm, I'm trying to call balls and strikes here. Trying to be down the middle. I'm trying to let it all soak in and then come to a conclusion.

• 49:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're soaking it in. I get it, but you can't make excuses and then say, I'm not making excuses.

• 49:05Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I'm just saying there's a line there where she says, hey, listen, I wasn't under the pretense that this was something that he was getting out of. I told him that he was married. It was wrong. I knew it was wrong and yet I still did it.

• 49:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Okay. What, what the hell else is she supposed to say when she's sitting in a box in a courtroom because her boyfriend, her sweet boyfriend murdered his wife because of Aaliyah? Like what else is she supposed to say? I stand 10 toes down on everything I did. I would do it again. No, because she's bullshit. Anyways, according to Aaliyah, Caleb told her that Ashley had cheated on him two years prior in 2022. And if, if you look, if you look at his social media, you might believe that because I'm like, what happened between the winter of 2020 when Caleb's expressing all this love for Ashley and then in 2022, I think, I think he deleted any positive social media posts he made about his wife when he started talking to Aaliyah because then he was

• 49:57Derrick Levasseur?

  going and looking at him.

• 49:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because she's going to go and look. So he's like, well, before I make this thing up about my wife cheating on me two years ago, I better go through from 2022 and make it look like I stopped talking nicely about my wife. Right? I think he deleted those posts.

• 50:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. Well, based on some of the other things that we saw, I'm kind of with you. I mean, he was trying to constantly prove to her that he was no longer into Ashley.

• 50:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep. Yep. And secondly, no evidence that Ashley had an affair, none whatsoever.

• 50:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Not that I would make it justified, but I am, I am wondering about that. Like what is the, what's the true story behind that? You know, like is he just making it up to make himself look like the victim? And this is the reason behind it? Yeah. That's what it sounds like.

• 50:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. Yeah. Cause Aaliyah was probably like, oh, this is wrong. And he's like, here's why it's not wrong. And then he's like, let me make up this story. Yeah. Let me make up the story about

• 50:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Somebody in her life, Caleb's life, Caleb would have confided in someone and let them know this is what happened. It doesn't seem like that is the case. It seems like he was just making it up to justify his actions so that Aaliyah wouldn't look at him in a negative light. Because the other angle to this is, man, if he's doing it to Ashley for no apparent reason whatsoever, what's to stop him from doing it to me two years? Well, if it's because she cheated on him first, well, then I wouldn't do that.

• 51:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  I would never do that.

• 51:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I get the, I get the, the, the strategy here, if you will.

• 51:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because every woman who's on the other side of an extramarital affair, the other woman, it's always like, well, he would never do this to me because I would never treat him like she's treating him, right?

• 51:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. I'm with you.

• 51:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So according to Aaliyah, Caleb told her that since the affair had happened two years prior, he'd missed his chance to divorce Ashley.

• 51:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Missed that window.

• 51:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. We know there's a statute of limitations on divorce. Everyone knows that. And, and you'll never convince me that Aaliyah didn't know this excuse was absolute bullshit because she continued this relationship with Caleb for almost two years and you never Googled whether or not a person could lose their chance to divorce a spouse after an affair. Like you'd never, you know, fact checked that. I don't believe you. And additionally, after her murder, Ashley Flynn's cell phone was extracted. Nothing on that device, not even deleted messages, showed any sign that she'd had any affair of any kind. Everything showed.

• 52:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Adultery, no communications with another person. Okay.

• 52:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Everything in her phone showed that she loved her husband desperately and was trying to figure out what was going on with him and how she could become close to him again.

• 52:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. For somebody who was cheating, she wrote a lot about him on social media.

• 52:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So Aaliyah also testified that Caleb would talk about Ashley's family, the Smiths. He told Aaliyah he couldn't stand them. He hated them. He didn't like being around them and he didn't like Todd as a boss, which was news to Todd because they were hanging out together all the damn time. So by the time of the affair, Aaliyah had moved up in the worship team from intern to full-time employee and worship leader. In fact, she was the main worship leader, which meant she would decide who would sing with her on stage during weekend services. And she and Caleb Flynn found themselves on stage together a lot.

• 53:50Speaker 04

  Oh, C L C, C L C.

• 53:53Derrick Levasseur?

  God's eyes vision clear.

• 53:55Speaker 04

  Bringing hope and Jesus love to lives but far and near. Hey, C L C, C L C. Hearts and voices sing for God is doing greater things through Christ our mighty King. Hey, uh, hey, come to Christmas Experience, December 12th through the 14th. Thank you.

• 54:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Man, you know, I'll tell you what, the things we do for love because, uh, give me make a good argument that, uh, she should have left the singing to Caleb. He's a lot of things, but a bad singer isn't one of them. He's actually pretty good.

• 54:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's not a bad singer either. She's a good singer.

• 54:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe it was just that, maybe it was just a, maybe it was just a Christmas song.

• 54:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hey, C L C, C L C.

• 54:34Derrick Levasseur?

  That sounded like me singing.

• 54:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was, it was rehearsal.

• 54:37Derrick Levasseur?

  That wasn't great.

• 54:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was rehearsal. She was finding her voice. She was soaking in it.

• 54:42Derrick Levasseur?

  She was soaking in the, she was, yeah, she, he was soaking in it at that point. Cause you could tell he was off camera, but he was probably like, all right, just shut it down. But man, side note, I mean, talented singer.

• 54:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So it's funny. I'm going to fast forward a little bit, but Caleb is, goes on trial and then his daughters give victim impact statements, right? And they were read out loud. The daughters weren't there, but one of the daughters, and we'll talk about this more in depth at the end of the series, but one of the daughters was like, oh, so what? Aaliyah, we never liked that lady. Like, so what? She can sing. Why did you choose to ruin our entire lives for that dirty girl?

• 55:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Damn.

• 55:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I was like, all right, Alyssa and Ava ate Caleb up. Like they were not giving him any leeway. They were not giving, and they were like, are you serious? That girl? Like this dirty girl, they called her. So they were singing a lot together because why? Because Aaliyah was the one who was deciding who would sing with her every weekend. And she wanted Caleb to be with her. And then also she wanted Caleb to be there during the week for rehearsals so they could have time together and she could get him away from his wife and family. Okay?

• 55:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Convenient.

• 55:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now by 2023, it seemed that Ashley Flynn had sensed something was off with Caleb and whatever was happening had affected their marriage and their bond negatively. She made a note on her phone on September 14th, 2023 that said, quote, "Now I would say our marriage is struggling. Zero intimacy, respect, fondness, appreciation, nothing. We really need Jesus to intervene." End quote. In October of 2024, Ashley got her first real glimpse of the relationship Caleb had been hiding. Caleb had apparently deleted messages from his iPhone, but some of those communications were still visible on an iPad that Ashley had access to. And when Ashley looked at the tablet, she found things that were difficult to explain away as innocent.

• 56:43Speaker 04

  At first it was iMessage and then it was WhatsApp.

• 56:49Speaker 05

  What's that?

• 56:51Speaker 04

  iMessage seemed to be too noticeable, like if somebody was seeing notifications coming up on her screen, or if Ashley were to look through his phone, the first place she would go is iMessage, so.

• 57:06Speaker 05

  And in fact, in fact, at some point, she discovered an iMessage between the two of you there?

• 57:11Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 57:11Speaker 05

  What message was that?

• 57:13Speaker 04

  He had deleted all the iMessages on his phone between us, but it was still on his iPad, so she was looking through his iPad while he's at work, and all the messages just popped up around the face, and it didn't have my name attached to it.

• 57:28Speaker 05

  Specifically, what picture did he say, Ashley, tell you, what picture did the defendant tell you Ashley found?

• 57:36Speaker 04

  A picture of my hand and I drew a ring on it.

• 57:39Speaker 05

  And what were you discussing in the messages around that photo?

• 57:44Speaker 04

  He was discussing how I wanted him to be my husband, wanted to get married to him.

• 57:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Not a good look.

• 57:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-mm.

• 57:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Not a good look.

• 57:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, Aaliyah claimed that her picture and her name were not attached to the messages that Ashley found on the iPad, but I don't know about that because clearly Ashley, even if Aaliyah's name and picture weren't attached to this message, clearly Ashley had some suspicion about Aaliyah because she called her on October 15th. So on October 15th, Ashley Flynn called Aaliyah Botner, but Aaliyah didn't answer. So there must have been something about what Ashley saw on that iPad, or what she saw at church, or what she was hearing through the grapevine, to cause her to suspect that the woman who was behind the hand with the ring drawn on it was Aaliyah Botner. In fact, Ashley's sister Kayla testified that there had been rumors going around that

• 58:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  something was happening between Caleb and Aaliyah.

• 58:45Speaker 06

  Aaliyah is a person that everybody knew.

• 58:50Speaker 04

  She went to our church, and I knew she was on the worship team with Caleb, and that's about all the kind of relationship I had with her. I knew, I could see her in the hall and say hi.

• 59:01Speaker 06

  Did you tell the police that they had arrested the wrong guy?

• 59:04Speaker 04

  Hundred percent. Yes, I, yes, sorry, I did.

• 59:07Speaker 06

  What's the matter on that day?

• 59:08Speaker 04

  I trusted Caleb with everything I had in me, so I, I remember hearing rumors that there was an affair, and I was like, that was, I was so mad because it was tarnishing his reputation. I was so mad because I didn't, I knew, I just knew in my heart that he was completely innocent. I really believed that with all of my heart. I don't think I've been more shocked in my life. I remember in the interview asking them, like, are you 100% sure? And they kept looking at me and saying, yes, we are 100% sure that he was having an affair. I had them probably repeat it to me two or three times because I could not even fathom

• 59:50Speaker 04

  the, the, even the thought that it would happen, because that is how much Ashley and I trusted our husbands and everything. So yes, I had not an inkling.

• 1:00:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I would be so pissed. I mean, it just shows you like the level of betrayal. She's like, me and my sister, me and Ashley, we trusted our husbands. I heard through like church gossip that something was going on. I was mad for him. I was mad that his reputation was being tarnished. I fought back against it. I had to tell the FBI, like, are you sure? I don't, the law enforcement's telling her Caleb was having an affair. She's like, there's no way, like, nothing could have seemed further from a possibility than that. And this is from his sister-in-law, not even just his wife, his sister-in-law. They all believed Caleb was this good husband, this good partner. He would never do that. But I think it's important to note, there were some rumors going around, and maybe

• 1:00:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ashley caught wind, which is why when she saw this hand with the ring drawn on it, and oh, I want to be your wife, I can't wait to be your wife, she's like, Caleb, who is this? And he's like, I'll tell you in a minute what he said after we go to our next break. But she's like, what's going on here? And then she calls Aaliyah Botner.

• 1:01:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 1:01:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something in Ashley was like, Aaliyah is the key to this. Aaliyah will have some answers, but Aaliyah didn't answer, so.

• 1:01:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I have, I have an answer for how she figured it out, to, or at least I, an assumption, but yeah, we'll talk about it after the break.

• 1:01:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to The Absorption Company for sponsoring this episode, and we all know there's a point where a wellness routine starts to feel like another job. You're trying to eat well, stay active, remember your supplements, and apparently also become an expert in every ingredient on the label of your supplements.

• 1:01:38Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt. There's a lot of information to sort through, and this is something that I've recently started to look into because I, I do take a few different medications, but the absorption rate is something that I never considered.

• 1:01:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and did you ever notice, like, you try to go searching online for help, and there's a

• 1:01:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Tons of misinformation.

• 1:01:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Tons of misinformation, but you don't even know what's information and what isn't information, because there's a ton of people giving completely different advice, and they're all confident that they're right. So let's talk about what this product actually is. WLP1 from The Absorption Company is a daily dietary supplement designed to support weight management. The formula includes ingredients studied for their potential to support your body's natural GLP-1 activity, feelings of fullness, craving support, and thermogenesis.

• 1:02:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Thermogenesis, okay, I think for everybody in the back, including myself, can you explain the last one?

• 1:02:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it's the process of your body producing heat and using energy. It's one of the processes that the formula is designed to support alongside appetite signaling and fullness. And to be clear, WLP1 is a supplement. It isn't prescription GLP-1 medication or a substitute for prescribed treatment. What makes The Absorption Company's approach interesting is to focus on, like you said earlier, how your body absorbs the ingredients you take.

• 1:02:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Super important.

• 1:02:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we, we tend to spend a lot of time looking at what's in the supplement, but how those ingredients are delivered matters, too.

• 1:02:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Super important, and sometimes you're taking a, a prescription and you're not even getting the full effect of it because you're not taking it right, or you're taking it with other medications, all very important stuff. So you have to remember that the ingredient list is only part of the picture.

• 1:03:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. Bioavailability means how much of an ingredient becomes available for your body to use. The Absorption Company develops its formulas with delivery technology designed to improve that absorption. With WLP1, the focus is daily support for weight management in a format you can work into your routine alongside your everyday habits. Now, individual results vary, and the research they reference is on ingredients in the formula, so it's about understanding what you're choosing and having realistic expectations, whether you're looking for WLP1, magnesium, berberine, CoQ10, or dozens of other science-backed supplements. Start taking supplements your body can actually absorb. Go to absorbmore.com and enter CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout for up to 35% off your first order.

• 1:03:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's absorbmore.com and enter CRIMEWEEKLY at checkout for 35% off your first order.

• 1:03:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to Quince for sponsoring this episode. Fall is here, and finally, and it makes me want to get dressed again. Sweaters, boots, a nice jacket, suede, leather, all the cool fall things. It's much more exciting than deciding which shirt I'm willing to sweat through, like in summer.

• 1:04:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm-hmm. So I have been watching the show Lanterns. I don't know if you know what it is.

• 1:04:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:04:18Derrick Levasseur?

  But Kyle Chandler, Hal Jordan, has this particular brown jacket. Now, that jacket's like $800. However, I went on Quince the other night, and there was a similar jacket for $250, on sale for $104, scooped it right up.

• 1:04:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wow, you cannot, you cannot beat that deal. On sale for $104, you

• 1:04:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I'm not saying it's the exact jacket, but in my mind, it's close enough.

• 1:04:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, I've been waiting for sweater weather, and I want pieces I'll actually wear regularly, something comfortable enough for a workday that still looks put together when I leave the house, and I don't need a sweater that requires its own special occasion. So Quince makes everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, washable silk. Their designs are timeless, so you can build outfits around them instead of wondering whether something will look dated by next fall. Now, though, the cashmere sweaters are great. I have a few from Quince. They're 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They start at just $50, and that's a great place to start. If you want a soft or versatile layer, you can wear with jeans, dress up with jewelry, throw under a jacket.

• 1:05:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, something you don't have to plan an entire outfit around.

• 1:05:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. If getting dressed requires too much deliberation, I'm going back to the outfit I already know works, which is sweatpants and a stained t-shirt. But Quince also has premium stretch denim, which is awesome. They have leather bags, they have footwear, 14-karat gold jewelry, so you can find those finishing pieces, too. A bag you can carry every day, or earrings that work with practically everything. And Quince works directly with ethical factories, and they cut out the middleman, which helps keep the prices lower while focusing on the materials and the craftsmanship.

• 1:05:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and we love their clothing, but they also have stuff for the house as well.

• 1:05:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  They do. They have bedding, bath essentials, kitchen pieces, even furniture, which is convenient, although going in for a sweater and getting distracted by bedding is a very believable turn of events, so that's happened to me. I love Quince. I love all their clothes. I have a lot of things from them. I, I have a rain jacket I just brought out today. It's a nice green rain jacket because it's been drizzling out for the last few days. I am completely dry. It's got an enormous hood. It looks cute. I love it.

• 1:06:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Definitely check out their stuff. Try it, and then tell us if it's not as the high quality that we're, we're describing to you.

• 1:06:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  So find the fall pieces you'll reach for most at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers, or go to quince.com/crimeweekly. You can get the free shipping on your orders and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too.

• 1:06:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Shout out to you, the UK.

• 1:06:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep, so that's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com/crimeweekly. Check them out.

• 1:06:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So what's your, what's your kind of take on it?

• 1:06:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. So based on that video you shared with us, she talks about how the communications changed over to WhatsApp. And although WhatsApp would not have a photo or a name attached to it if you didn't want it to, one thing that you can't avoid is that when you click into that, that message, you are going to see a phone number attached to that text message conversation. That's how it connects.

• 1:07:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the iPad discovery in October is what triggered Caleb and Aaliyah to start using WhatsApp. But even with an iMessage, right? Even if he doesn't have Aaliyah's number saved as a contact in his phone, it's still going to show a number.

• 1:07:28Derrick Levasseur?

  That's correct. And so very simply, you don't have to be a detective, right? You could take that number, you punch it into Google or something like that, and it's going to probably give you some type of White Pages link where you're going to see the owner of that phone. But even if you don't.

• 1:07:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or you just call it, wait for the voicemail to pick up, right?

• 1:07:45Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go. There you go. Or they don't pick up and you get a voicemail, right? Or she could easily just check that number through a database associated with the church. I'm sure that number was readily available somewhere within her community, and she was able to use common sense to link it back to Aaliyah.

• 1:08:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or maybe Ashley didn't even know till she picked up her own phone, dialed that number, had it go to voicemail. Hi, you've reached Aaliyah Botner. Worship leader at CLC, top tier singer.

• 1:08:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, something popped up.

• 1:08:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Best future wife to Caleb Flynn.

• 1:08:18Derrick Levasseur?

  But there might have been, listen, she saw that message. Maybe there were other messages in that message that indicated this person, this woman was from the church. And then she goes to the church directory, looks at the number and sees it. And now she knows exactly who it is. And then she proceeds to call her. So it wouldn't be hard to figure it out. I'm surprised Aaliyah didn't pick up on that. But it would be very easy to, listen, they were in a tight knit community, right? They were kind of in a vacuum to a certain degree where it was all kind of compartmentalized. They didn't associate with a lot of people outside the church. It was very, it was all community involvement. Everyone knows everyone. So it wouldn't be hard to track down that number.

• 1:08:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  No. And evidently, after Ashley found the stuff on the iPad, Caleb told her that he had been hacked.

• 1:09:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, hate that.

• 1:09:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  That was his excuse. That was his reasoning. He wasn't like, ah, you caught me. Or, you know, this is nothing to worry about. He was like, what? How did that get, I was hacked. And Ashley seems to have actually tried to verify that explanation because investigators later found searches on her phone asking whether an iCloud account could be hacked and whether someone could hack into an account and fabricate a conversation. So at this point, Ashley Flynn clearly knew something was wrong. What she did not yet seem to know was how long the relationship had been going on and how serious it had become, or how much effort Caleb and Aaliyah were putting into making sure she couldn't find out about it again. Because after Ashley found those messages, Caleb and Aaliyah changed the way they'd been communicating.

• 1:09:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  They moved away from iMessage and they started using apps like WhatsApp and eventually an app called GroupMe. But at that point, they were also deleting their conversations regularly. Aaliyah was like, we were deleting conversations every single day. Now, the messages that Caleb and Aaliyah sent each other through iMessage, WhatsApp and Instagram have never been recovered. But Caleb created a GroupMe account on February 3rd, 2025. And from then on, that was their main communication hub. And from February 3rd of 2025 to February 15th of 2026, 107,000 messages between the two lovebirds were recovered.

• 1:10:28Speaker 05

  Fair to say that's almost 300 messages a day on average?

• 1:10:34Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 1:10:35Speaker 05

  How did you do anything else?

• 1:10:40Speaker 04

  I don't know.

• 1:10:41Speaker 05

  How much time would you guess you invested into exchanging messages with the defendant on an everyday basis?

• 1:10:49Speaker 04

  I was constantly texting him.

• 1:10:51Speaker 05

  Type of videos would the two of you exchange?

• 1:10:55Speaker 04

  He would send me videos confirming that no one's home. He would send videos of his girls.

• 1:11:03Speaker 06

  Hey babe, I am so sorry to hear about myssrs in your car. But I wanted to show you that I am home alone. I'm not sure if you want to see the puppies, but if anybody's listening, I love Aaliyah Botner.

• 1:11:22Speaker 06

  I love her and I'm home alone.

• 1:11:27Speaker 06

  Rosie, do you love Aaliyah? Do I see Aaliyah?

• 1:11:33Speaker 06

  Do I see Aaliyah?

• 1:11:36Speaker 05

  Please continue your excitement.

• 1:11:37Speaker 06

  There it is. Yes, you want to see it.

• 1:11:41Speaker 06

  Hello?

• 1:11:45Speaker 06

  I love Aaliyah.

• 1:11:48Speaker 06

  Just got here and.

• 1:11:55Speaker 06

  Do she's not here?

• 1:12:08Speaker 06

  Hey girls.

• 1:12:11Speaker 06

  Um, brush your teeth and put jeans on, okay? Love you.

• 1:12:21Derrick Levasseur?

  It's rough. It's rough. The, I love Aaliyah.

• 1:12:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I love Aaliyah Botner. And then he's like Rosie to the dog, because they've got two golden doodles. And he's like, Rosie, you want to see Aaliyah? Rosie's like, don't say that name to me in Ashley's house. What's wrong with you? Rosie's looking at him like, get the hell out of here with your bull, Caleb.

• 1:12:39Derrick Levasseur?

  You got Aaliyah on the other end, just sitting there soaking it all in.

• 1:12:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, Aaliyah's like, yeah, say your, say my name in your wife's house. I love it. And this is a part of Aaliyah being like, where is she? Uh, where's Ashley right now? And he's like, she's not home or I'm home alone. Here's how I prove it. And so these were the kinds of videos Caleb would send along with, obviously, they would send each other naked pictures of each other and, uh, and then selves.

• 1:13:02Derrick Levasseur?

  If you're sending 300 messages a day, there's, there's going to be some nudes in there for sure. How much can you talk about 300 messages?

• 1:13:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  This was 107,000 messages in a year, period, because we could only get the GroupMe messages.

• 1:13:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  The messages from iMessage, Instagram, WhatsApp, from all before February of 2025. We don't know what was said, what the conversations were like. We don't know any of it. So this is just 107,000 messages in a year, period.

• 1:13:30Derrick Levasseur?

  I love the attorney. He's like, how did you do anything else?

• 1:13:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  When he said, he was like, how did you get anything else done, you loser?

• 1:13:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Like, I mean, that's a full-time job.

• 1:13:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Is, you're texting back and forth every single day, all day long.

• 1:13:42Derrick Levasseur?

  300 messages on average per day.

• 1:13:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's a message, I think I did the math. It was like a message every three minutes or something. It's absolutely insane during your waking hours. It's just insane. So meanwhile, Caleb and Aaliyah, they're taking every chance they could to talk to each other and see each other. For a while, they were seeing each other in person multiple times a week. They would meet during the day at her apartment to have sex or in the parking lot of Chipotle. They would go out of town to places like Columbus or Cincinnati for dates so that they wouldn't run into anyone who knew them. And in Picoa, Caleb and Aaliyah got matching tattoos.

• 1:14:18Speaker 04

  We got matching tattoos.

• 1:14:20Speaker 05

  What's the meaning behind the tattoo?

• 1:14:23Speaker 04

  When we first, in March of 2024, when we first became more, we were texting every day that month.

• 1:14:32Speaker 04

  One of the first things that we bonded over was Harry Potter. So we got a lightning bolt.

• 1:14:41Speaker 05

  Where's your tattoo located?

• 1:14:43Speaker 04

  On my arm.

• 1:14:44Speaker 05

  You should show ladies and gentlemen of the jury your tattoo.

• 1:14:49Speaker 05

  Where's the defendant's matching tattoo?

• 1:14:52Speaker 04

  In his armpit.

• 1:14:55Speaker 05

  Why in his armpit?

• 1:14:57Speaker 04

  He didn't want Ashley to see.

• 1:15:00Speaker 05

  How'd that make you feel that you're getting a matching tattoo with someone who placed it in an armpit?

• 1:15:05Speaker 04

  I think at the time I understood.

• 1:15:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It's not funny, man. It's not funny. But it is.

• 1:15:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, so here's my thing.

• 1:15:17Derrick Levasseur?

  That's gotta be painful, too.

• 1:15:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I, the armpit? Well, that was the sacrifice.

• 1:15:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Tattoo right here. And I'm like, that, they say that's painful.

• 1:15:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  The sacrifice of getting a matching tattoo with his girlfriend while also keeping it hidden from his wife. I mean, that was how Caleb was showing.

• 1:15:32Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, also, and like, I know people are fans of Harry Potter, but it just saying it out loud.

• 1:15:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you. I'm so glad you said that because I am a fan of Harry Potter. This was a 40-year-old man talking to a 23-year-old woman, like, oh, we both love Harry Potter. Where it's like, Aaliyah's a 23-year-old woman. Okay. Caleb's a 40-year-old. This is how he would like relate to his daughters.

• 1:15:53Derrick Levasseur?

  We're gonna get, we're gonna get.

• 1:15:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. I know. But I don't care.

• 1:15:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Have you been to Disney World or Universal Studios, I should say?

• 1:16:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  I go every year. I love it.

• 1:16:01Derrick Levasseur?

  I think it's Universal that has the Harry Potter thing, right?

• 1:16:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:16:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Is that where the Butterbeer and stuff is?

• 1:16:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:16:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay. Cause there's some adults there that are like fully committed to this.

• 1:16:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Listen, I know, but I don't think that Caleb genuinely.

• 1:16:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Harry Potter fans.

• 1:16:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think that Caleb genuinely liked Harry Potter. I think it was just this like thing that he said to like relate to her. But it was almost like you would relate to your daughters. You know, you're a 40-year-old man. Your daughters love Harry Potter. And it's like, yeah, this is so exciting. Let's get our wands and dress up and go to Universal. But for Caleb, a 40-year-old man, and Aaliyah to bond over Harry Potter, that just shows the huge age discrepancy and how he was just this weirdo, like, yeah, little girl, I love Harry Potter too. Let's get matching lightning bolts tattooed on our bodies. I'll put mine in my armpit so my wife doesn't see it.

• 1:16:51Derrick Levasseur?

  All right, let's stop talking about this.

• 1:16:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's gross. It's weird.

• 1:16:55Derrick Levasseur?

  And you can tell when she's like, if you guys aren't watching that video, you can see her.

• 1:16:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Her embarrassment as she's saying these things out loud and she's realizing how. Embarrassing it looks.

• 1:17:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  I relished in her embarrassment.

• 1:17:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you can tell. And this lawyer is just soaking it all in. He's just sitting there.

• 1:17:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, this is the prosecutor. Okay.

• 1:17:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, he's definitely, he knows exactly what he's doing. Not all of this is purposeful for the sake of the investigation. Some of it is just like, hey, I might not be able to charge you, but I'm gonna make this a horrible experience for you. And you're gonna, this is all gonna get clipped and be on Court TV. So enjoy it, cuz I'm gonna, I'm gonna make your life a living hell. You're gonna look like an idiot when I get done with you.

• 1:17:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, her testimony was a roast, basically.

• 1:17:39Derrick Levasseur?

  It really was. Honestly, that's a perfect way of describing it. There's things in here that are not necessary for the sake of the, the, the trial itself.

• 1:17:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, the prosecutors.

• 1:17:47Derrick Levasseur?

  The tattoos.

• 1:17:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, the prosecutor's like, how did you even have time to text that much?

• 1:17:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  What kind of life do you lead, lady? And then he's like, how did it make you feel when the man you were in love with wanted to hide his matching tattoo from his wife? How did you feel about that, Aaliyah?

• 1:18:01Derrick Levasseur?

  And you notice the defense is not even objecting to any of this. They're like,

• 1:18:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  How can they?

• 1:18:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Man, what are we gonna do?

• 1:18:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  So during the summer, Caleb's wife, Ashley, taught Bible camp a few weeks in June, and Caleb and Aaliyah called those times their marriage weeks, because Caleb would essentially leave his house and go live with Aaliyah in her apartment. And during that time, they were able to pretend that at least for a little while, they were married and living together as man and wife. And then we get to the heart of the issue. What did Caleb and Aaliyah, who were in constant communication with each other every single day, talk about? You're talking 300 messages a day. What do you guys have to possibly talk about? Well, besides them talking about how they wanted to be together so badly,

• 1:18:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  they talked about Caleb's wife, Ashley, and how much they hated her and how much they wanted her gone.

• 1:18:51Speaker 05

  In your communications with the defendant, how many times did he express that he wished Ashley Flynn was not in his life?

• 1:18:59Speaker 04

  Every week, at least.

• 1:19:01Speaker 05

  How often would he use words to the effect that he wanted her gone?

• 1:19:05Speaker 04

  Probably the same, every week.

• 1:19:08Speaker 05

  How often would he make statements about wanting Ashley to die?

• 1:19:11Speaker 04

  That's probably at least once a month.

• 1:19:15Speaker 05

  Can you describe what he said when he was stating things about wanting Ashley to die?

• 1:19:21Speaker 04

  And it seemed like when he would say it, it just got worse the way he would say it. At first, it was, I want her dead. It was she was gone. And then it was,

• 1:19:33Speaker 04

  if I could kill her and not go to jail, I would. And one night, he was up really late, thinking about, told me that he was thinking of ways to kill her.

• 1:19:43Derrick Levasseur?

  And, and this is where the, the hatred comes from when we're talking about Aaliyah, not only with you, but just with the majority of the people out there, because this is way beyond like, oh, man, I just wish she would friggin' die. You know, like, a passive comment, that's still wrong, but I think most people would, would admit that maybe they've made a comment like that about someone in their passing, but, but not actually meant it. But he's describing this on a consistent basis and going into detail about how he would do it. And if he could get away with it, he would do it. And any reasonable, intelligent person would understand that this is more than just a passive comment that you're making out of anger. There's some thought behind it. And, and she should have picked up on that. And maybe, I'm sure a lot of people are gonna feel this way, maybe she did.

• 1:20:28Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's why you have this, this disgust for her, because any, anybody would look at this and go, oh, he's serious. He's actually contemplating it.

• 1:20:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, absolutely. I agree. But that's gonna come into play. Okay, we'll talk about that later. But the fact that all this was building and he was saying these things constantly, and she was saying them too, that's gonna come into play. So let's go to the beginning of 2025, when it seems that all Aaliyah and Caleb could talk about was Ashley and how inconvenient she was to both of their lives. And like I said, I want to be very clear. The messages on GroupMe start in February, at the beginning of February. We don't know what they talked about before. This could have been something they always talked about, and this could have been a way they always talked about Ashley. We just don't know that. Aaliyah can say all day, it wasn't. I don't believe a word that she says, to be honest. So

• 1:21:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  let's talk about February 11th, when Caleb texted Aaliyah, quote, "Why can't it be you? Why couldn't I have met you and married you and had kids with you?" end quote. I don't know, Caleb, because you've been married for 15 years. And 15 years before that, Aaliyah would have been six years old and too busy attending kindergarten to have met and married you, you gross idiot. Ugh. Caleb told Aaliyah that he wanted to take his girls, run away, and never come back. And Aaliyah replied, quote, "Please, baby, I would do this in a heartbeat. Freaking leave it all. My love for you compares to no other woman's love for a man. I'd do anything." End quote. Caleb responded, quote,

• 1:22:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  "I need her to die, to cheat again, to leave. I need you." end quote. On February 16th, Caleb texted Aaliyah, quote, "Sorry, I'm short. I hate douche. I want to be with my girls, but I don't want to be anywhere near her, because one, I hate her, and two, I know it hurts you." end quote. On February 18th, Caleb texted, quote, "Because I hate her, you know I hate talking about her." end quote. Aaliyah asked Caleb what she could do, and Caleb replied back, "Marry me." Aaliyah said, "Ah, no." And Caleb wrote back, quote, "Kill douche." And Aaliyah replied, quote, "Oh, man, please." end quote. Caleb then said, quote, "You know I hate douche and want nothing with her." end quote.

• 1:22:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  In March, Aaliyah said, quote, "I hate her." end quote. Caleb then said, quote, "I hate her more, way more." end quote. Aaliyah replied, quote, "I hate her. I've never hated anyone like I do her. I hate the thoughts she causes in my head." End quote. Caleb then said, quote, "I'm sorry what she does to both of us, but mostly you. I hate her as well, and I want her gone. I don't give her anything, and will continue that." end quote. Aaliyah responded, quote, "Good. I'd be utterly broken if I ever found out you did somehow." End quote. Caleb then said, quote, "I know, sweetheart, I know. I don't receive or take things as I don't want anything that she has to offer, ever. I hate her. I hate douche more than anything.

• 1:23:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  As I'm trapped in this twist of life, I live with her in so many ways." end quote. So, yeah, I, I don't know. We talked about this in Crime Weekly News. Aaliyah and Caleb called Ashley douche, because Caleb said that Ashley didn't deserve to be called by her, her name. So, cuz they talked about her so much. At some point, Caleb was like, ah, we're talking about my wife so much, but I hate hearing her name, so let's call her douche, because, because that's better, instead of just not talking about her.

• 1:23:59Derrick Levasseur?

  They're kinda meant for each other. You really, you read these conversations, they're

• 1:24:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Birds of a feather.

• 1:24:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, they're flocking. They're flocking together.

• 1:24:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're, they're soaking and flocking.

• 1:24:08Derrick Levasseur?

  They're soaking and flocking.

• 1:24:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Aaliyah asked Caleb what he was saying, and he said, quote, "I'm saying I don't deserve you, and I want you to be happy, and I don't make you happy." end quote. Aaliyah replied, quote, "So you're leaving? You're closing our chapter? How can you think that you don't make me happy?" end quote. Caleb replied back that he made Aaliyah hurt more than he made her happy, and quote, "Can you honestly say this is what you want and what you see for your life?" end quote. Aaliyah responded back, quote, "I don't know, Caleb. You have to find a way." end quote. Caleb then said, quote, "I want her dead and gone. Is it fair to ask you to live this life with me, the way we are now, until I can figure this out? Be selfish and think of you, not me. I miss you already, and I hate her with all that is in me.

• 1:24:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'll be at the parks, and I'll be as distant as ever and put all my attention on the girls, but I can only take so many bathroom breaks to text you. I can't call, as I won't have a car this year to drive away and by myself. I hate this spring break. I hate it. I hate her, and I hate my life. I know the Lord can handle my emotions, but I am so angry. I've served him my whole life. And the one thing outside of him and my girls that I love the most, I can't have? Because she doesn't give a rat's ass." end quote.

• 1:25:23Derrick Levasseur?

  The emotional readings, I, I mean, there's something. And by the way, I, I know I'm qualifying here. This is Stephanie Nye's approach for anybody who's joining us for the first time on Crime Weekly. I know we have a lot of new people. Our way of dealing with the offenders is to constantly shame them and make fun of them. That's our approach. We did it with BTK2, and some people were like, how dare you? Like, it's what we do.

• 1:25:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're being so mean to Dennis Rader.

• 1:25:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is a very serious matter, and these people are absolute scumbags. Uh, and we're thinking about, about Ashley and her family and her kids.

• 1:25:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  But isn't it ludicrous? Yes, of course we are. That's, that goes without saying.

• 1:26:01Derrick Levasseur?

  But, but, but I have to say that because we're laughing here because we're laughing at them, not with them. And, and this is what should happen, because

• 1:26:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  They are, they have never been laughing about this. This was, they were serious. When they were saying these things to each other.

• 1:26:13Derrick Levasseur?

  This is not something, we're not making a joke out of it. This is, this is their actual words, and we're just, um, we're relaying them to you. But it is, it is embarrassing and, and, and funny to, to, to hear as I'm hearing it for the first time, and many of you are as well, because yeah, these people are really, they have no shame.

• 1:26:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, and I'm saying

• 1:26:32Derrick Levasseur?

  They definitely didn't expect these conversations to get out. That's for sure.

• 1:26:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's ridiculous that they're talking to each other this way. And Caleb's like, I'll be at the parks. I'll put all my attention on the girls, because he's still doing things with Ashley, as husband and wife, with their kids. And Aaliyah would be like, oh, my God, you're going to an amusement park today? And like, I'm not gonna be able to talk to you, cuz she'll be there and you'll reconnect. Aaliyah was always scared that if she

• 1:26:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they're gonna get back together, and they're gonna rekindle, and things are gonna be good, and she's gonna get forced out.

• 1:26:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, if she released the reins, that Caleb and Ashley would go to an amusement park with their daughters, and Caleb would suddenly be like, wow, I have everything a man could want. Cuz Aaliyah knew that. Aaliyah knew he had everything a man could want.

• 1:27:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Fair.

• 1:27:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so she was afraid that he would figure that out. But she didn't realize what a narcissist, unself-aware person that he was, because he was not a normal person who was gonna be like, wow, I really have so much to be thankful for. No. That wasn't gonna happen. So Aaliyah's worries were unfounded. But yeah, she's always worried, and she wants him to always text her. And he's saying, "I'm probably not gonna be able to a lot today, cuz there's only so many bathroom breaks I can take. And if I'm just texting you all day, my wife's going to get suspicious." Right? So there's contradictions in what he's saying. If you're only living as roommates with your wife, then she shouldn't have anything to say about you texting all day long if you want, you know? If this isn't a marriage, and you're not worried about her finding out about this, then What's the concern? So Aaliyah wrote back to Caleb,

• 1:27:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  quote, "Hear me. I love you more than anything in this world, and you haven't lost me yet." End quote. This was on March 24th, and when Caleb didn't answer, Aaliyah asked what he was doing. He responded that he'd been crying. And when Aaliyah once again asked what she could do, Caleb said, quote, "Kill her. I already miss you like crazy, and I hate her ever living guts. I hate her. Please remember that." End quote. Aaliyah must have asked Caleb, "Why he hated Ashley so much?" Because although her text to him is not on the record, Caleb's response was, quote, "Just a lot. Douche cheated and made me feel like I wasn't good enough for someone to stay faithful. I hate her, and it allowed me to be with you. And so I'm thankful for that.

• 1:28:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  But those feelings never went away. And then we got together, and I can't give you what you need and deserve, which makes me feel again like I'm not good enough, and I fail again. Hearing the statements you have made the last couple of weeks, which are valid, just point to how selfish I am." End quote. So this is important because Aaliyah, this is where I say she's manipulative. Caleb says Ashley cheated on him. Aaliyah will be like, "Why do you hate her so much?" And he'll be like, "'Cause she cheated on me." And then Aaliyah will be like, "Well, you should be grateful that she cheated on you because that's what allowed you to be with me. And if she hadn't cheated on you, and you didn't care about her, you wouldn't care so much about her cheating on you." And so she kind of puts him in a position where he's like, "I hate her because she cheated on me." And then Aaliyah will be like, "Well, that was a blessing, and you should be thankful for that because it brought us together. So you shouldn't hate her because of that."

• 1:29:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was kind of like always setting him up to not answer the right way or in a way that was adequate for her because it wasn't focused on her.

• 1:29:33Derrick Levasseur?

  This is an excuse, although you may come at me for this, but it does seem like if we're to take what she's saying at face value, and talk about Aaliyah here, there was an initial point where she realized what was happening was wrong, and then she fully immersed herself in it and actually became maybe even worse than Caleb in some ways because she was constantly looking for validation and confirmation that he wasn't spending time with her. Like, I don't think he was sending all of those videos with him being alone because it was just unsolicited.

• 1:30:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  They were prompted.

• 1:30:01Derrick Levasseur?

  They were prompted, exactly. And it was something that he had to do to constantly remind her and affirm to her that, "Yeah, don't worry. Don't worry, I'm not hanging out with her." Because those videos are weird. They're just, and I'm sure there's a lot more of them that we haven't even seen. So I do think that it transitioned from, if this is true, right? That, oh, this is wrong to, okay, I'll entertain it, to, oh, my God, I want to do everything in my power to ensure that he ends up with me and not her. And it went to the other extreme.

• 1:30:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  So absolutely. So Caleb initially tells Aaliyah, "She cheated on me. I'm done with her. I live as a roommate with her. My heart's with you." But after so much time, that wasn't good enough. Now Aaliyah needs proof.

• 1:30:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 1:30:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Prove to me that she's-

• 1:30:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Daily proof, apparently, based on text messages.

• 1:30:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Daily proof. Prove to me that she's not with you. Prove to me that you're not hanging out with her. I know you- Which is valid because Caleb was lying to Aaliyah about what his relationship was like with Ashley. So these are things she's asking because as a woman, she knows, this doesn't make sense. And probably in her guts somewhere, she was like, "This is what I fear because I'm getting feelings that that's probably what's happening here."

• 1:31:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  But instead of saying like, "I feel weird and icky about this, and I don't trust you, and I don't believe what you say." We're done. Instead of doing that, Aaliyah tried to control Caleb and control the situation and control his almost every minute of his everyday.

• 1:31:25Derrick Levasseur?

  She was operating from the belief that maybe, is he playing me too? Right? Is he telling me these things just to get what he wants out of me? When in reality, he's hunky-dory with Ashley back home, and he has no intentions on leaving. He's telling me one thing, but in reality, he's telling her something completely different. So this was her way of trying to prevent herself from being treated the same way he was treating Ashley. She was wondering herself, like, "If he can do it to her, is he already doing it to me? Is he having these same conversations with me?"

• 1:31:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was, yes. But you'd think that would be in your head, "Okay, I can't trust him. I don't believe what he's saying. I need to end this relationship because that's not going to change." But instead, she's like, "I'm going to control everything." I think she thought, "If I can just get him divorced, if I could just get him in my clutches fully, then I won't have to worry about this anymore. But I gotta like, I gotta orchestrate making sure that Caleb and Ashley are never alone together."

• 1:32:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I'm sure there were even other parts where he thought, she thought he was such a catch that she was concerned about him finding another woman, you know, as well. So by keeping tabs on him, she was trying to keep him all to herself.

• 1:32:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know what kind of catch he was, but Caleb also wrote to Aaliyah, quote, "Missing you so much today. Douche is pissy like normal. The girls and I were ready to go, and she was taking forever. She got mad that she was being rushed. I hate her so much. She ruins everything. She's not talking to me now. Thank the Lord." End quote. On April 15th, Caleb told Aaliyah, quote, "Will you please just do it and leave me? I don't know how I'm going to live with this anticipation, knowing it's coming. It's almost worse. I hate my life. I hate douche. I'm miserable and have nothing to look forward to." End quote. On April 15th, Caleb texted Aaliyah, quote, "I'm sorry. Gosh, I'm sorry. I want her dead and gone." End quote. And Aaliyah wrote back, quote, "I've never wished that upon someone, but I have more than ever with her. That affirms me so much. I love you, Caleb.

• 1:33:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  I just want you all to myself." End quote. So him telling her, "I want my wife dead," and Aaliyah's response is, "Thank you so much for saying that. That is so affirming to me."

• 1:33:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:33:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  These people are twisted.

• 1:33:32Derrick Levasseur?

  It could have simply been like, "Well, let's not go that extreme. You can just leave her."

• 1:33:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right, so that's what I'm saying. She's like, "It got worse. He just kept saying it got worse." Yes, it got worse.

• 1:33:38Derrick Levasseur?

  And she never deterred him from saying it.

• 1:33:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  You never were like, ew.

• 1:33:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Condemned what he was saying. Never reeled it back in and said, "Hey, listen, we're talking hypothetical here. I just want you to leave her. I don't care if she's alive or not." But it was always like, "Oh, my God, you saying that means so much to me."

• 1:33:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's what I'm saying. It was never like, "Whoa, I don't like when you talk like that."

• 1:33:57Derrick Levasseur?

  No, it's saying, "I actually love it."

• 1:33:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we both don't like your wife and what she's causing to our lives, but I don't like to hear you talk like that about anyone. I don't want to be with somebody who would talk like that or feel that way about somebody. That's uncomfortable for me. She never says this.

• 1:34:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and I don't think saying, you know, you were complicit in this is an excuse. You understand what you're saying and how you're responding to it and also what he's saying and what you're acknowledging and actually condoning in many ways.

• 1:34:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  You freaking people are talking day in and day out, "Oh, our Lord, we love Jesus Christ." And in the same messages. Yeah, in the same messages, "Thank you so much for saying you want to kill your wife or you want her dead."

• 1:34:37Derrick Levasseur?

  It means so much to me.

• 1:34:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  I love hearing that. What idiots. All right. Let's take our last, let's take our last break. We'll be right back.

• 1:34:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you to the Ladder app for sponsoring this episode of Crime Weekly. Getting yourself to exercise is already a task, to the point that some of us just didn't do it for a long time. And when I say some of us, I mean me. You know, I didn't do it for a long time because I was like, "I can't. I don't have the capacity right now." You know, you decide to go to the gym, then you get there. You have to decide what exercises to do, how much weight to use, how many sets. There are too many decisions, too much research. I already do enough research.

• 1:35:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and having a plan really does make a difference. Listen, you can go to the gym, but if you're not actually working on particular muscle groups or getting it in in a reasonable amount of time, if you're just sitting there for hours on your phone in between sets, you may be there for a long time, but it doesn't mean you're actually having an impact on your body. Obviously, anything is better than nothing, but if you're going to go there, why not have a plan and maximize your efforts?

• 1:35:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, exactly. Have a plan before you start. I want to know what I'm doing before I even get there, especially when I've carved out time in a busy day. And the Ladder app gives you a structured strength training plan designed by certified coaches. And then you're going to get a new plan every week. And the best thing is the workouts build on each other through structured training blocks. There's a purpose behind what you're doing and how it progresses.

• 1:35:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, shout out to my trainer, Brian, with him every single day. Gives me the workout 30 to 45 minutes. I have my gym downstairs. He looks like a Greek god. I'm not there yet, but we're working toward it.

• 1:36:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Brian's going to get you there.

• 1:36:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Brian, I think there's some people who are on his app, on this app just for Brian. He's a good-looking cat.

• 1:36:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  So with Brian and other coaches on the Ladder app, you can get in-ear coaching that guides you through every set with form cues, reminders, and motivation. It's like having a personal trainer in your headphones. I like the form cues because I'm always falling out of form, and then you don't realize that you might be doing damage.

• 1:36:35Derrick Levasseur?

  They give you videos so you can, you'll have the exact form you need to get the most out of the exercise.

• 1:36:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. And there are plans for different training styles and setups, whether you're at the gym, working out, or at home with dumbbells. You'll find options like bodybuilding, Pilates-inspired strength, kettlebells, and hybrid strength training. So you can choose something that fits how you actually want to train. The good thing that I like is the organization because the app also remembers your weights, your reps, and sets.

• 1:36:58Derrick Levasseur?

  That's a really important distinction, by the way.

• 1:37:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  But the best part is, it costs less than a dollar a day. So you get the programming, the coaching, and the tracking all together, which makes it easier to show up with a plan and use your time well. It makes it easier to progress and actually see results. But you're actually not paying what you would pay for a personal trainer, not even close.

• 1:37:17Derrick Levasseur?

  No, not even close.

• 1:37:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  So remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do every workout, no thinking, everything planned out for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimeweekly and take a quick quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan. Use our link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join. All incentives, no downfalls. Check them out.

• 1:37:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  This episode is brought to you by IQ Bar, our exclusive snack sponsor. IQ Bars are a staple in Derek and Stephanie's life.

• 1:37:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, has been for many years. Yep.

• 1:37:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they are the better for you, clean plant protein bars packed with fiber and brain boosting nutrients with zero added sugar. So you no longer have to choose between healthy or delicious snacks. A protein bar shouldn't feel like something you have to get through.

• 1:38:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's a snack. It shouldn't require determination to eat it. And with IQ Bar, I look forward to them. I would eat them regardless of their health benefits. They taste good.

• 1:38:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  They do taste good. And the texture is also good, which is important. So IQ Bars' number one ingredient is almonds and their bars combine plant protein and fiber with zero added sugar. They're also free from gluten, dairy, soy, GMOs, and artificial sweeteners. And having something you can keep in your bag or at your desk makes it easier to have a snack ready when your day gets busy. No preparation, no utensils, no discovering that the thing you packed needs a refrigerator you don't have access to.

• 1:38:44Derrick Levasseur?

  My go to flavors almond butter chip and chocolate sea salt. If you haven't tried those, definitely check them out.

• 1:38:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they have other flavors, too. They've got mint chocolate chip, which is amazing. Lemon blueberry, actually super good. Banana nut is one of my favorites. Toasted coconut chip, peanut butter chip is bomb. So you have options, whether you tend to go for chocolate, something fruity, or a more classic nutty flavor. And I like having the variety available because you, even a snack you enjoy can get repetitive when you're grabbing the same four flavors every day. And IQ Bar has nine flavors, so.

• 1:39:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, lot to choose from.

• 1:39:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  IQ Bar also offers hydration mixes and mushroom coffees. And the offer we're about to tell you applies to all IQ Bar products. So you can explore more than just the bars, because right now IQ Bar is offering our special podcast listeners 20% off all IQ Bar products plus free shipping, which is great. So to get your 20% off, text WEEKLY to 64,000. Text WEEKLY to 64,000. One more time, that's WEEKLY to 64,000. Message and data rates may apply. See terms for details.

• 1:39:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Aaliyah and Caleb were stuck in a constant cycle of telling each other how much they loved each other and how much they needed each other. And then arguing because Aaliyah was jealous of Ashley and she wanted to make sure that Caleb was not having any interaction with his wife. And Caleb was jealous of every single man that Aaliyah knew.

• 1:40:11Derrick Levasseur?

  No surprise there.

• 1:40:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So he would get mad when he had to be at church events with Aaliyah and witness other men attempting to talk to Aaliyah or engage with her. Caleb frequently referred to something called Run for Christ, which was apparently a church, young adult activity that Aaliyah participated in. And whenever she went to events like that, Caleb became extremely jealous because she was single and she could meet other men. So in a message sent on May 5, Caleb texted Aaliyah, quote, "You said something last night that resonated with me." Something to the effect of, "Anything that we feel could take the other away from us. It causes us to be so edgy and short. Douche is obviously that for you and any young adults or that Run for Christ thing is that for me. The arguments we have are

• 1:40:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  all rooted in that. Just sucks that we desire all of each other and complete freedom with each other. Other than that, when we can't have it, it causes that edginess, shortness, no understanding, et cetera. Just sucks so freaking bad. There's no escape from these feelings as we have taken the first steps in surrendering. And now you're 100% open to date and do whatever. So it just sucks so bad. I could literally throw up thinking of you holding another man's hand or holding and kissing. Those thoughts and feelings make me so bitter and resentful of any young adults or Run with Christ thing. I'm just being transparent and honest. Any man would be a fool not to pursue you. And so those offenses that you go to are so hard. People think I'm taken, so no woman would approach

• 1:41:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  or pursue me. You, the opposite. You've been asked out by several guys. You are pursued by others. Guys want you and it just sucks beyond belief. I want to know everything you do, but at the same time, I know it just kills me. And that's not healthy. It's a constant freaking battle in my mind and heart. I know you know what I'm talking about here, but I'm just affirming you again. I hate Douche. I hate her with everything. I do." End quote. So Caleb saying, "Listen, you appear to be single, but to all other people, I'm married, so no one would approach me." But Aaliyah knows that's not true. Cause he was married when she got with him, right? So he's saying, "It's better for me, like as far as you are concerned and how you feel about this, because I'm not going to be hit

• 1:42:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  on by women all the time because I'm gross looking and I'm a bad person. And also people think I'm married. But with you, everyone's going to hit on you because you're young and beautiful." And Aaliyah's thinking in her head, "Yeah, that's kind of true, but also it's not totally accurate because you were married when you and I started talking and you kind of pulled me in and you were texting me and asking for hugs. You could be doing that with someone else. I don't know. You could be talking to other women and telling them the same thing you've been telling me. I don't know." So she's paranoid, he's paranoid. Caleb then told Aaliyah that he wanted to just call it quits on life. So he's saying like, "I don't, I want to die. I don't want to be here." And Aaliyah begged him not to say things like that because it scared her and it worried her. On May 16,

• 1:43:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb said, quote, "I do care. When I was hurting yesterday, I didn't throw out statements like that, but I should be used to that by now. I'm sorry this sucks. I hate this in my life and this situation more than anything in the world. If I could literally kill her and not go to hell, I would do it in a heartbeat. That's how dark and hateful I feel. I didn't get a response from you while you were playing pickleball for almost three hours. I wasn't mad because I knew you were with people and you were busy. You get so angry with me when you don't get a response right away, or you don't get it the way you want it. You know that I'm with Ava and her friends. I'm not around Douche and I stay away from her at all times. We did not plan this together. This is what Ava wanted and Douche scheduled it. I just show up and play, but I'm sorry it hurts. I'm sorry more than anything." End quote. So Caleb's pushing back a little bit, you know? He's like, "Hey, I'm not up

• 1:43:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  your ass this way," even though that's not true. "I'm not up your ass this way. Why are you doing this to me?" You know? And on May 29, Aaliyah texted Caleb, very angry, quote, "Why cater to Ashley and what she fucking wants? I'm so done with you. I know you have murdered my heart in every way. Hope you're glad you took my virginity and also my heart and stomped all over it. Enjoy your marriage. I'm done." End quote. So it's funny because the defense, Caleb's defense during their closing statements, he, the lawyer, like, kind of talked about this. And he was like, "Aaliyah said this and Aaliyah said that." And he's like, "If you believe that she was still a virgin when she met

• 1:44:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Caleb, or that any of these other things she said were true, then I've got a bridge to sell you in London or something." Because he was basically saying like, "Aaliyah's being manipulative. She's telling Caleb he took her virginity." And apparently the defense does not think that was an accurate portrayal. So if Aaliyah's lying about this and she's telling Caleb, like, "Oh, I was a virgin when we met and when we had sex", is that going to be more manipulative and make Caleb feel like, "Oh, she's this wholesome girl and I'm the only man she's ever been with. And, you know, I really need to like, make good on this because I took this woman's innocence." You know, it was like, basically the defense is saying it's a manipulative tactic that Aaliyah's using.

• 1:45:14Derrick Levasseur?

  And so you're saying it's a manipulative tactic and the defense is saying that?

• 1:45:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  The defense.

• 1:45:18Derrick Levasseur?

  On Caleb's defense?

• 1:45:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  The defense, yeah. Caleb's defense team in their closing statements.

• 1:45:21Derrick Levasseur?

  She's more involved than she wants you to believe.

• 1:45:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, I think the defense, yeah, the defense is definitely was trying to go with that angle.

• 1:45:27Derrick Levasseur?

  They're trying to show that she had, she was more of a contributing factor.

• 1:45:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:45:31Derrick Levasseur?

  And they're saying, "We have evidence or we believe."

• 1:45:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:35Derrick Levasseur?

  That she's lying. She wasn't a virgin.

• 1:45:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, okay. Poor Caleb.

• 1:45:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Poor, don't say poor Caleb.

• 1:45:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Poor Caleb. It's obviously sarcasm, but.

• 1:45:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay. And then on June 12, Aaliyah was feeling differently, telling Caleb, quote, "Life with you and loving you is so easy and just makes sense. I've fallen so madly in love. I don't want to settle for anything else." End quote. Caleb replied, quote, "We have to get rid of Douche. We have to get rid of Douche," he said. He also said, "I need you. You're my everything, my heart and soul, my best friend, my love, my better half." End quote. Aaliyah replied, quote, "I don't even want to say this in a joking way anymore. We need a solution, Caleb. We need it to be me and you forever and no exceptions." End quote. Caleb said, quote, "I've never joked about it. I love you, baby. I love

• 1:46:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  you so much." End quote. Aaliyah responded back, quote, "I love you, sweetie. Wow. It's been so long since we've been lovely and flirty and I miss it desperately." End quote. So this lovey flirty period that Aaliyah's talking about was short-lived, as three days later, Caleb was texting this to Aaliyah, quote, "I'm sorry that I didn't want to talk about Douche. I'm not sure I can communicate any more clearly that I hate her. She has ruined my life. Any and everything that has to do with her makes me the most furious person in the world. I know she is your biggest insecurity. You say when I'm insecure about stuff that you always talk it out. And yes, I would agree you do. But those clubs have not ruined your life. They have not put you in a prison and literally crucified

• 1:47:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  any possibility at a future. And so, yes, they are easy to talk about with me. Talking about Douche is so different. As I said, I hate her and she has ruined and taken everything from me. And so I do not want to talk about her. You know I hate her. I can't even stand the sight of her or the mention of her. I'm sorry, but you did push last night for me to talk about her. Sorry I wasn't able to. It all spiraled from there. And you about putting your arms around guys. Jeez. But anyways, I'm sorry." End quote.

• 1:47:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, this is interesting because this is referring to, I'm assuming, a phone call or a previous text message. I'm going to go with a phone call here, where she's on the phone and she's talking Ashley.

• 1:47:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's like, "Tell me how much you hate Ashley again."

• 1:47:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, "God, I don't want to talk about it anymore." So this is another, this is a prime example of. You can't sit there and say that it was always him initiating these conversations to talk negatively about Ashley and you were just kind of being receptive and being a good listener. It's, it appears here where he would have no reason to, to lie about. He's writing in a text message that she was the instigator. She was the primary aggressor in this situation, wanting to discuss Ashley in the negative light. And he was so over talking about it. I guess he pushed back in that moment and said, Jesus, I don't want to talk about her anymore. And she probably got upset, but she wanted to have an Ashley bashing session and he wasn't up for it. So this is, this might be i- in the eyes of

• 1:48:30Derrick Levasseur?

  the court, a little contradictory to the, I guess, to the perception that she's trying to create that, listen, I was always the sounding board, him about how much he hated her. And I was just, you know, innocent party here, just kind of being a good listener, being a good friend, being a good partner. When in reality, there were definitely at least one instance, probably more, where she wanted you to get on the phone and just talk about how awful of a person she was. And in this particular occasion, he was, he was in, he wasn't up for it.

• 1:49:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and Aaliyah's saying, we used to be so nice and like flirty with each other, you know, during the honeymoon period, but now it seems like all we do is fight and talk about Ashley and, and all these other people who you're afraid of and my insecurities and your insecurities. And it's been so long since we've been like nice and flirty with each other. And maybe Caleb was trying to like exist in that, that kind of phase and stage for a while. But now Aaliyah is like, remember, she said, telling me how much you hate your wife and you want her dead? That is so affirming to me. So now every few days, Aaliyah needs a reminder that Caleb hates his wife and wishes she was dead. And so she's trying to get that out of him now. She's trying, and he didn't want to talk about it that night and it caused an argument. Cause now Aaliyah's like, I'm asking for validation.

• 1:49:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm asking for you to make my nervous system feel safe. And, and the only way you can do that is by telling me how much you hate your wife and wish she was dead. And you don't want to do that. So now I'm mad at you for not being a good partner.

• 1:49:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. By him not doing that, she's taking it, or at least presenting it as, oh, are you back together with her? Do you like her now again? Is that what you're trying? You know what I mean? So.

• 1:50:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's how she's perceiving it. Exactly.

• 1:50:04Derrick Levasseur?

  If you're not willing to talk about her, that means things must be going well.

• 1:50:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly. And, and this, this woman's a mental case. Okay. Cause if you're in a relationship where the other person makes you feel unsafe or makes you feel insecure at all, get out of the relationship. Don't be in that relationship with somebody who makes you feel unsafe or insecure. Don't make them, don't bully them into submission to every single day be the reason that you have to feel better about the situation. And she would say, well, this is a situation you've caused. You're putting me through this. So it's your job to make me feel better. And obviously that's going to cause resentment and some arguing between them. Cause Caleb is not wanting to do it because he's actually not being mean to his wife. And he's actually not avoiding his wife because a very sore

• 1:50:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  subject came up that seemed to dominate the chat between Caleb and Aaliyah. Caleb and Ashley's 15 year wedding anniversary was coming up in August and apparently against Caleb's will, according to him, Ashley and her parents had planned a cruise for the two of them to celebrate their wedding anniversary together. So Caleb and Ashley are gonna get on a boat together for like over a week and be together in this romantic cruise environment. Aaliyah was livid, obviously livid. She told Caleb to find a way to get out of it. And apparently Caleb even tried to like send a letter in the mail to Ashley that the cruise

• 1:51:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  was canceled. Like he told Aaliyah, he was doing all of these things to get out of the cruise. He wasn't doing anything to get out of the cruise, by the way. So on July 7th, Caleb texted Aaliyah, quote, "You know, I will do everything I can, but also I'm asking that you don't put stipulations on what would happen or what it would mean if I accept or not. I'm not being mean or short or insensitive, but you have to at least acknowledge that this is a little more involved than other things I skip or make excuses to miss. What I mean is now that her parents are involved and have their hands in it, I have a lot of things to work out. I hate her and want zero time with her like ever. But again, this isn't just some concert or a little event I'm trying to get out of. Anyways, like I said, yes, I will do everything I can to make it happen." End quote, as in make him

• 1:52:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  not going on the cruise happen. On July 10th, Aaliyah texted Caleb saying, quote, "Do you know how badly I want to say F it to any rules and barriers and just love you with my entire heart for the rest of my life? I want to kill her, Caleb. It's so bad." End quote. Caleb responded, quote, "That makes two of us." End quote. On August 4th, Aaliyah texted Caleb, "Have a great day. Sure, you're doing loads of work these next two days before leaving on your beloved 15 year anniversary trip. The history you guys have is unmatched, by the way. 15 years? Our 17 months doesn't even compare. She always wins. Enjoy your day. Enjoy uninterrupted hours with her in the plane tomorrow and at the hotel. Enjoy

• 1:53:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  traveling and enjoy your favorite trip ever. A hell sent death of Aaliyah cruise and then Cabo? I truly have never been more sick to my stomach and I've never wanted to die more. I don't know how I'm going to make it. Every day will get worse. Every moment I imagine and picture what y'all could be doing. Every second will stab me in the chest violently. I don't know if I'll still be alive by the end of this. She has to be happier than ever. I really have to go. I need to run up from this messed up situation of a life I live." End quote. Quite dramatic. Cause at this point Caleb's going on the cruise.

• 1:53:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. She's fuming.

• 1:53:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  She, she can't do anything. He can't get out of it. And so now it's almost like, I'm trying to make him think that like, I'll die. Maybe, maybe I'll take my own life. I'm so depressed and so destroyed by this.

• 1:53:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. She's up in the stakes for sure.

• 1:53:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Caleb wrote back, quote, "I will not enjoy myself at all this week, regardless of what you think. My heart and mind will be on you as I know you will be hurting. I will not be having sex with her, like you said, or even coming close to touching her. I hate her and always will. I choose a life of solitude 100 out of 100 times over anything with her. As much as that's crippling to think of being alone for the rest of eternity, I choose that." End quote. So the anniversary cruise was a big source of tension for Aaliyah and Caleb leading up to the trip. And it would be on that cruise that Ashley would discover more evidence and information that her husband wasn't who he said he was. And she would make an attempt to reach out to Aaliyah Botner again, and schedule a meeting

• 1:54:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  again, to try and figure out what was going on, to try to get to the bottom of it, to try to get Aaliyah's side of the story after she sees things on Caleb's phone during this cruise that once again point to the fact, he's not being faithful to her. And Aaliyah will once again ignore it and try to escape any repercussions that her relationship with Caleb, this married man, would bring upon her as far as Ashley's concerned. But then Aaliyah's going to be also very stressed because now she knows Ashley has her in her crosshairs, that Ashley knows something's going on with her husband and thinks Aaliyah is the reason for it. And Aaliyah doesn't want this to get out. Aaliyah doesn't want Ashley to tell this to her family, or to tell this to her friends, or to tell this

• 1:55:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  to anyone at church, because Aaliyah's worried about her reputation and how it's going to look, as she should be. And that's where we'll pick up next week. But yeah, a lot going on here.

• 1:55:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. For me, where we sit on this one is a lot of informations out there about Caleb Flynn and his involvement in Ashley's murder. As we go through this series, I really want to look at this case through the lens of a potential prosecutor. And where do we cross a line of just being complicit and now being culpable? And we're all going to have different opinions on that. And it's somewhat subjective from where we're sitting. But I think that is one of the questions that we're going to try and answer, or at least give our own opinions on by the end of the series. Because after this first episode, you can see an escalation in aggressiveness as far as trying to get him to leave Ashley

• 1:56:10Derrick Levasseur?

  and, and putting stipulations on certain things and also making kind of like vague threats, like maybe potentially self harm. So I'm going to also, as we kind of go through the.

• 1:56:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're both doing it, right? It's manipulative.

• 1:56:22Derrick Levasseur?

  But he's on trial, right? He's arrested for it. So she's not. We're looking at these videos. She is a witness. And so I know that's a question that a lot of people have and we're going to talk about it throughout the series, but also break down the investigation itself and how we got to this point. Because clearly, when Caleb did what he did, the intent was to get away with it, end up with the money, still have a good relationship with her family and end up happily ever after with, with, hey, what's her name? I forgot. I keep saying Ashley, but I don't want to conflate that to Aaliyah. I apologize. I'm sorry. I forgot your name, Aaliyah.

• 1:56:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because then Caleb, don't say you're sorry to her.

• 1:57:00Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm being again sarcastic. Jesus.

• 1:57:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause Caleb could now, okay, Ashley's dead. I still have my job. Her family still loves me. And now I can just say that after Ashley died, Aaliyah comforted me and she was a shoulder to lean on. And so then we became close and then he could introduce Aaliyah later to that dynamic.

• 1:57:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. I'm looking forward to diving more into this one. It's a deep dive. That's what we do. We said we were going to do it on Crime Weekly News and, and we're just getting started. So we, we appreciate you guys being here. As always, love and support is, is, is, we have a lot of gratitude from you guys and how you support us throughout this. And this is another series that we're trying to give you a different perspective than you would get on most channels that are covering it. That's what we hope differentiates us from those other channels. And leave your comments, questions, concerns in the comment section below. If you're watching on YouTube, you can also leave reviews on Apple Podcasts and you can leave comments on Spotify. So plenty of options for you to get your opinions and thoughts out there. We're constantly looking at them. And if you want a deeper

• 1:58:02Derrick Levasseur?

  discussion, you can head on over to our Patreon where we actually have our discussion boards that are case specific. So if you want to go on there and talk about this case in particular with other people who are fascinated or interested in it, you can do that. It's all linked in our description box below on both audio and video. Anything else from you before I wrap this one up?

• 1:58:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nope. We will dive in next week. Like we, like we never left you. Trust me. We're all going to pick up and I can't wait to see you guys next week.

• 1:58:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely. Until then, everyone stays safe out there. We'll see you soon.