S3 Ep253: John O'Keefe: A Relationship With Karen Read (Part 1)

In the early morning hours of Saturday, January 29th, 2022, Boston Police officer John O’Keefe was found dead in a snowbank outside a home in Canton, Massachusetts. According to the medical examiner, O’Keefe had died from blunt force trauma and hypothermia. At first it seemed like a tragic accident, maybe a slip on the ice, a fall that ended in death. But as investigators dug deeper, things became far more complicated and Karen Read, O’Keefe’s girlfriend, became the center of the investigation. Evidence that there had been trouble in paradise in the romantic relationship began to surface, but so did other disturbing possibilities. What seemed like a domestic tragedy was quickly clouded by allegations of police corruption and cover-up, and an investigation that many believe was compromised from the start. What if the very people tasked with upholding the law were covering up the truth? Was John O’Keefe’s death a result of an angry lovers rage- or the collateral damage of a police force protecting its own? In this case, the line between justice and corruption becomes confusingly blurred. Evidence disappears, witnesses are silenced, and as the truth slowly rises to the surface, it may reveal a web of lies that’s more dangerous than anyone could have predicted. Was Karen Read the scapegoat in a larger cover-up? And what role did corruption within the police department play in distorting facts. This may not be just a story of love gone wrong, it may in fact turn out to be a story of power, deceit, and the price people will pay to keep the darkest of dark secrets buried. Join us as we delve deep into the case of John O’Keefe and Karen Read, and help us see if we can get closer to the truth. Try our coffee!! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. ZipRecruiter.com/CrimeWeekly - Try ZipRecruiter for FREE!2. ShopBeam.com/CrimeWeekly - Get up to 50% off!3. Smalls.com/CrimeWeekly - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for 50% off your first order and FREE shipping!4. Prose.com/CrimeWeekly - Get 50% off your first subscription order and a FREE in-depth hair consultation!5. EatIQBAR.com - Text WEEKLY to 64000 for 20% off ALL IQBAR products and FREE shipping!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  In the early morning hours of Saturday, January 29, 2022, Boston Police Officer John O'Keefe was found dead in a snowbank outside a home in Canton, Massachusetts. According to the medical examiner, O'Keefe had died from blunt force trauma and hypothermia. At first, it seemed like a tragic accident, maybe a slip on the ice, a fall that ended in death. But as investigators dug deeper, things became far more complicated, and Karen Reed, O'Keefe's girlfriend, became the center of the investigation. Evidence that there had been trouble in paradise in their romantic relationship began to surface, but so did other disturbing possibilities. What initially seemed like a domestic tragedy was quickly clouded by allegations of police

• 0:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  corruption and cover-up, and an investigation that many believe was compromised from the very start. What if the very people tasked with upholding the law were covering up the truth? Was John O'Keefe's death a result of an angry lover's rage, or the collateral damage of a police force protecting its own? In this case, the line between justice and corruption becomes confusingly blurred. Evidence disappears, witnesses are silenced, and as the truth slowly rises to the surface, it may reveal a web of lies that's more dangerous than anyone could have predicted. Was Karen Reed the scapegoat in a larger cover-up? And what role did corruption within the police department play in distorting facts? This may not be just a story of love gone wrong.

• 1:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  It may in fact turn out to be a story of power, deceit, and the price people will pay to keep the darkest of dark secrets buried. Join us today as we delve deep into the case of John O'Keefe and Karen Reed, and help us see if we can get closer to the truth.

• 2:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 2:09Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derek Levasseur.

• 2:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  So today, obviously, as you heard from the teaser, we're talking about the John O'Keefe and Karen Reed case. Now, Derek, how much do you know about this case?

• 2:18Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I'm from Rhode Island, so it's been going around. I haven't dove into the details. I know the highlights. This isn't like some of the cases where I have no clue about it. Being in law enforcement, being right next door, although it's, I say next door, it's about 45 minutes away.

• 2:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's pretty close.

• 2:36Derrick Levasseur?

  There's definitely some stuff that made its way down here where we hear about it. And based on what you've told me about it, I do think this will be an interesting series because, as you've said, there's some allegations of police corruption and I try to call it straight, so we'll see how this one goes.

• 2:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, and I was really concerned because I know how close you are to it. And because of the extreme allegations of police corruption, I wanted to make sure you didn't know anybody involved in the case, right? Because that's all I would need is to do this case and have you defend these people. And then all of a sudden, you know, the internet sleuths are like, actually, Derek, and so and so from the case in the Boston Police Department are best friends and they served on a task force together. And I'm like, oh, no. So I called like a court, like a judge or a jury or whatever, who does it? I was like, are there any possibilities? You know any of these people that you've worked with any of these people? Are there any, what is it called, conflicts of interest?

• 3:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, there's always a possibility that at some point I may have worked with one of these guys. I did work on some different task force that, through the ATF, where we might work on a multi-jurisdictional operation on one occasion with BPD or something like that. So it's possible I've worked with them before, but when this story came out, if it were someone that I were familiar with or close with, I would have known. I would have known. And contrary to popular belief, there's a lot of police officers out there. We're not all, we're not all connected. We're not all friends.

• 4:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're not all in a secret society?

• 4:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's, you know.

• 4:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  You don't have the same group chat?

• 4:08Derrick Levasseur?

  It's like, it's like garbage men, you know, like they're from different cities. They're not all hanging out after hours.

• 4:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, most of the, the law enforcement in this case is from BPD Boston and then, but, but most of them live in Canton.

• 4:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and they're kind of their own entity out there. It's a big police department. I worked on a small police department. And, you know, they're their own world out there.

• 4:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right. So we, we kind of went over, I gave him the major players in the case. He said, no, I don't, I don't know these people. So we're good. And I'm going to give you a quick summary in this case.

• 4:40Derrick Levasseur?

  By the way, even if I did know him, I call it how I see it. There's been cops that I've known, that I was friends with. I worked IA for a period of time. If I gotta call him out, I'll call him out. Now, if I defend him, you guys may not like it, but I'm going to do it if I think it's appropriate. Regardless of connections, you know?

• 4:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Fair enough, fair enough. I don't, I don't, I don't know. I don't know if I would, if I would have done this case if you knew these people. Just for your sake, based on how rabid people are about this, like for your sake, I wouldn't want to put you in a position where you're giving an analysis on this case, having any personal knowledge of the people involved, because no matter what you said at that point, it wouldn't be believed.

• 5:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 5:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know what I mean?

• 5:19Derrick Levasseur?

  From what I know, I don't know any of them.

• 5:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I want to give a quick summary of the case so that everyone understands what we're dealing with. Um, as we start from the beginning and go over the timeline of events, but before we dive in and, and become immersed in this, is there anything you want to get out of the way?

• 5:34Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, there is. There's a few things. Big announcements, criminal coffee. We have all of our coffee currently in stock, K cups, ground coffee, whole bean coffee. Um, but more importantly, because I've gotten a lot of messages about it, all of our merchandise is currently in stock right now. You guys asked for restocks and all these different colors. It's all here. There's not one thing that we're out of stock of as of right now. Full disclosure, get it while you can, because I didn't order a ton of it because we have to pay for it all upfront. But it is in stock right now. And with the holiday season coming, uh, we're going to be doing a code, although it will not apply to the merch, because the merch, there's not a lot of margins on it. So. Here's the code, Turkey10. You get 10% off your coffee orders. So if you want to order

• 6:19Derrick Levasseur?

  coffee, you can get 10% off merchandise. Some of it's already on sale. So you can go on there, check that out. All the merchandise stock, we don't have the baseball hats right now. They're still coming. I've already ordered them. And then we have two huge announcements, or in my opinion, huge announcements coming for Criminal Coffee, but I can't announce them yet. Got to wait for a couple more things to be finalized. But I will say one of them is a case update that we're going to be working on. The other is, we're going to be adding a new product. So what that is, it's something that you guys have been asking for, and I'm just trying to get it done before the holidays. So if that happens, I'll let you know. Turkey10, go over there right now, 10% off all your coffee orders. That'll be through Thanksgiving,

• 7:02Derrick Levasseur?

  probably till the end of the month, and then I'll shut it down December 1st.

• 7:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  All right, awesome. So we'll go in, as you heard in the teaser, 49-year-old Boston police officer John O'Keefe was found dead outside of a home in Canton, Massachusetts in January of 2022. Now, this home happened to belong to another Boston police officer, Brian Albert, and this is obviously going to become important. At the time of his death, John was in a relationship with 41-year-old Karen Reed. And we're going to talk more about how they started dating, and what the dynamics of their relationship were, when we get into the meat and potatoes of the episode. On February 1st, 2022, Karen Reed was arrested and charged with motor vehicle homicide, manslaughter, and leaving the scene of a

• 7:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  motor vehicle collision causing death. The following day, she pleaded not guilty, and on June 9, she would be indicted by a Norfolk County grand jury and arraigned on charges of second-degree murder, manslaughter while operating under the influence of alcohol, and leaving the scene of personal injury or death. The prosecution would claim that Karen and John's relationship had become troubled, marked by incidences of betrayal and jealousy. And so on that fateful night, Karen brought John to a party at Brian Albert's home. But before he had the chance to go inside, she backed her SUV into him, knocking him out and leaving him for dead in the frigid Massachusetts winter temperatures. Those inside the house claimed that John never made it inside. Now, the defense, however, contends that John did go inside,

• 8:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  at which point there was some kind of altercation, a fight, during which he was badly beaten and attacked by Brian Albert's German shepherd, Chloe. After this, he was dragged outside and then left in the snow to die. If this all seems kind of like pretty cut and dry, it seems like it should be fairly easy with evidence to prove what happened one way or the other. That assumption would be very wrong. And this case has brought me down multiple rabbit holes. Initially, after getting the basic details of this case, I thought I knew what had happened. But as I dug deeper, I realized that there may be something to these so-called conspiracy theories of police corruption. And many in Canton and the surrounding areas agree with me. Karen Reed's first trial ended in a mistrial when the jury found themselves,

• 9:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  quote, unquote, starkly divided. In the weeks following the trial, information was leaked from jurors, which claimed they'd only been deadlocked on one of the charges, which was an OUI manslaughter charge, not the murder charge. So this mistrial kickstarted the Free Karen Reed movement, not just in Massachusetts, but really all over the country and even the world. The many supporters claim that Karen Reed is a victim of a corrupt investigation and a corrupt trial. And one woman, Deanna Fazio, said, quote, "The more exposure that the case has, the more you know people are going to look at it." I remember last spring, the Facebook group had like 300 people in it. And I looked yesterday and it's like 56,000 people, end quote.

• 10:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  So I remember when I first started looking into the case, and this was before her trial started. I was like, I kind of, I kind of see how they, how they think she did it. And, and I don't really understand how really any other situation is possible. And then I started watching the trial. And it's sketchy, man. It's real sketchy. And we're going to talk all about it. But yeah, it's, it's weird because, and then I started talking to people. Like I started talking to my hairdresser. And people who even weren't even into true crime before have found themselves fixated on this case because of the random things that pop up that make it, it almost seem obvious that somebody's lying here, that somebody's...

• 10:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Sort of not doing things above board. It's real bad. So we're going to get into it. But what do you, what are your initial thoughts?

• 10:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm going to go into it objective and I'm not going to give any thoughts right now. I want to hear the case. I, I get what you're saying. I, I've heard different theories on it. I've heard people throw out the theory that Karen Reed is ultimately a victim here of something bigger. And I've also heard the other side of it where this is just a, an accident where if Karen had hit her boyfriend at the time, during a different time of year and it wasn't cold outside, uh, we wouldn't be here right now. But I do know that we've gotten many requests to cover this since this initially happened. And I've always responded with, we're going to wait till there's some type of adjudication. There has been, so in crime weekly fashion, we're going to go through it all and see where we line up.

• 11:40Derrick Levasseur?

  I have a feeling that you and I may not agree on some things. Maybe we will, who knows? Stranger things have happened, but, uh, I'm going to call balls and strikes and, and see where it goes.

• 11:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we'll kind of start like we, well, like we normally start, you know, an introduction to the main people in the case, which are Karen Reed and, and John O'Keefe. So Karen Reed, she had a pretty wholesome and beneficial childhood. She grew up in a quiet neighborhood in Taunton, Massachusetts with her parents, Bill and Janet and her brother. She attended Coil and Cassidy, which was a private Catholic school where she was described by friends as being outgoing and sociable. Karen was also smart. She was a member of the National Honor Society and she was enrolled in AP Advanced Placement classes. In her senior yearbook, Karen quoted writer V S Pritchett saying, quote, "Youth is the period of assumed personalities and disguises. It is the time of the sincerely insincere," end quote.

• 12:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  The school's community service teacher, Michael Coate, remembers Karen vividly, even though he had taught at the school for 40 years and has obviously seen many students come and go. He paints a picture of an extremely empathetic person who formed a deep connection with one of the residents of a nursing home during her time volunteering there. And he said, quote, "She was a remarkable, young, mature woman who showed such compassion and sensitivity," end quote. During her early years in Taunton, Reed enjoyed playing the piano. She attended mass regularly with her family. They were close, she and her family, really good, normal childhood. After high school, Karen got a degree in finance from Bentley University in just three years' time, and she stayed at Bentley to work towards her master's degree while also working for the Huey Center for

• 13:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Financial Services at the university as a trading assistant. She earned her master's degree in 2004, and this was the same year she met John O'Keefe at a birthday party in Boston for his sister, Kristen. Karen didn't know anyone at the party, but she went with a mutual friend who did know people there, and she and John connected. She thought he was cute. They exchanged numbers. The rest is history. Now, at that time, Karen was working as a financial analyst for Sensata Technologies at Attleboro, but her work often required to travel to Ireland, so she and John dated only a short time before drifting apart due to the business of their schedules and sometimes long-distance nature of the relationship. After they parted ways, both Karen and John went through challenging and

• 14:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  painful circumstances in their lives. At the age of 25, Karen was diagnosed with Crohn's disease, and she had to endure 10 surgeries over the course of two years. According to Bill Reed, Karen's father, she eventually began feeling better after a Cleveland Clinic surgeon performed major reconstructive surgery on her intestines. But then, when she was 32, Karen was diagnosed with MS, multiple sclerosis. Karen's health battles often left her feeling unwell, and there was a period of time where she suffered from temporary blindness and also had to wear a colostomy bag. While all of this was happening with Karen, her ex-boyfriend, John O'Keefe, was also experiencing enormous life changes, suddenly finding himself the legal guardian of two young children.

• 14:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  John had been born and raised in Braintree, Massachusetts. He had attended Northeastern University and gotten his master's degree in criminal justice from the University of Massachusetts before taking a job with the Boston Police Department and moving to Canton, about 15 miles southwest of Boston. Now, in 2013, John's sister, Kristen, passed away from an aggressive brain tumor she had just been diagnosed with a few months earlier. Eight days later, John's best friend and fellow police officer, Pat Rogers, committed suicide. Now, at that time, Pat's girlfriend, Laura Sullivan, was pregnant, and so John O'Keefe stepped up to help her. It was something he was known to do, be a loyal friend and a support system to those in his life during their times of need.

• 15:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Laura Sullivan said that O'Keefe was the first person in her delivery room after she gave birth, and he was a constant presence in her son's life afterwards, acting as his godfather. And then, just two months after this, after his best friend committed suicide, John's brother-in-law, his sister's husband, died unexpectedly from a heart attack, leaving

• 15:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Jesus.

• 15:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, leaving his six-year-old daughter, Kaylee, and three-year-old son, Patrick, without any parents. And at that time, even through his own loss and his own grief, John stepped up, and he took his niece and nephew in, and he raised them as his own. So there's a lot that I just went through.

• 16:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 16:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I know we should definitely talk about it, because these circumstances for both parties are horrendous. So let's take a quick break, and when we come back, we will dive deeper.

• 16:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So we've got Karen, who's going through some really horrible health issues at a very young age.

• 16:26Derrick Levasseur?

  It's funny, some of the cities you mentioned, Attleboro, like, that is 10 minutes for me.

• 16:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we talked about Attleboro during the Hernandez.

• 16:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Hernandez case, yeah.

• 16:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, the case a lot.

• 16:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Attleboro police officers I've worked a lot with.

• 16:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Good thing we're not talking about them.

• 16:39Derrick Levasseur?

  Not today. Not today, we're not.

• 16:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she's going through horrible health issues, Crohn's. For anybody who's suffered from it, you know, it has varying degrees, but it can be brutal, and her case was horrible. So even before being diagnosed with it, she's struggling with this, not knowing what it is. And then she gets diagnosed with it, she's got to go through all of these surgeries, and then on top of that, to be diagnosed with MS, which is also awful. I had an aunt who struggled and died from MS, and it was horrible.

• 17:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  And then we have John O'Keefe. His sister dies. I mean, once again, aggressive brain tumor. She was diagnosed and a few months later, she's dead. So this is basically an overnight thing. You lose your sister. Then your best friend commits suicide and his girlfriend's pregnant at the time. So now you're stepping up to sort of be that, that supportive presence for her, which is an amazing thing to do. And then your sister's husband dies of a heart attack. Eight days later, and your niece and nephew, very young children, are left without parents. And once again, John O'Keefe steps up. He's a bachelor at this time. You know, he's, he's got a good job with the Boston Police Department. He's out there, you know, having his weekends to himself, probably dating, doing his thing.

• 17:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  And all of a sudden, he is in charge of two young children. And he probably has no idea what to do. So both of these people were going through things that made their lives difficult.

• 18:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they were both going through it for sure. And this was, this was after they had dated, correct?

• 18:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 18:10Derrick Levasseur?

  So, I mean, you, they were together and they were separate. All these things unfold and they're both on this parallel kind of trajectory where they're not together anymore and yet they're both experiencing hardships. Pretty common story. We hear a lot in the world today. Everyone's got their own battles that they're going through. Some were severe than others, but all significant and, and important in their own way. But, you know, on the surface, it's, you know, it's, it's tough to hear that someone, at least without knowing anything about John, other than what you've told to us so far, this is subject to change, seems like a good dude and was trying to do the right thing.

• 18:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hundred percent. And I mean, it seems like they met, you know, in their early twenties. They're young kids, stars in their eyes. Yeah, they, they have.

• 18:51Derrick Levasseur?

  You don't even, we don't even know who you are at 20.

• 18:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  You got no problems though, you know? So you date for a few months. It's fun. It's light. It's casual.

• 18:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 18:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  You, you break up, you go your separate ways, no animosity. And then you both kind of are, are going through life and, and one tragedy after another happens and it changes you as a person. It shapes you, molds you. And now they're gonna, they're gonna reconnect, right? So in the spring of 2020, as the COVID pandemic swung into full force, John O'Keefe sent Karen Reed a Facebook message. And he was like, hey stranger, long time, no talk. You know, what's going on? At this time, they had not seen each other in 16 years, and Karen was both busy and successful. She had taken a job as an equity research analyst at Fidelity Investments in Boston. And in 2008, she also took a job as a finance professor at her old alma mater, Bentley University.

• 19:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  When Karen found out that John was raising his sister's children while also working at the Sex Offender Registry Information Unit at the A1 Station in downtown Boston, she felt a great deal of empathy and respect for her former boyfriend. After spending some time with John and the kids, Karen grew attached to all three. The relationship was rekindled, and she moved in with John. Karen told Vanity Fair, quote, "I felt like this is the perfect situation. It's a Karen-sized hole in this house that I have the energy and resources to fill," end quote. So Karen's doing well financially, obviously, right? And you can see from pictures, it has always stuck with me. She's very attractive. She's very poised. She's well put together.

• 20:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  You can tell this is a person that's, you know, very aware of how her her external appearance is perceived by the world, by the outside world. And she's very motivated, driven in her career. She does well financially. So when she says, "I have the energy and the resources to fill this hole," she means like, "I can help," you know? This guy suddenly has two kids. He's also working a full-time job. Now COVID's hit. These kids are home all the time, you know, because they have, what is it? Virtual schooling. So she moves in to help. And during the pandemic, Karen stayed home most days with the kids so she could help them with their schoolwork over Zoom while John went into work. It seemed very sweet and pure.

• 21:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Two people coming back together to help raise children who had lost virtually everything. Two people who had both been through their share of darkness, now hoping to find the light together. And at first, it seems that this is exactly what the relationship between Karen Reed and John O'Keefe represented. But as time passed, issues popped up and tensions developed, as they usually do, once that honeymoon period sorts pass. Allegedly, John felt resentful that he always had to be the strict parent, the disciplinarian with the kids, while Karen was able to have a more relaxed relationship with them. According to Karen, when the kids would come home from their grandparents, they would bypass John in order to hug and greet her first. And John began to feel that Kaylee and Patrick, his niece and nephew,

• 21:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  preferred Karen because she was the one who did fun things with them. She took them on shopping trips. She bought them presents. She threw them elaborate birthday parties. The kids will later testify that things had started off great between their uncle and his girlfriend. And although they never saw things get physical or violent, they did recall multiple arguments between the two, especially in the months leading up to John's death. Now, at the end of December 2021, John, Karen and the kids, along with some family friends, took a New Year's Eve trip to Aruba where tensions escalated. John's close friend, Laura Sullivan, and remember Laura Sullivan was the girlfriend of his best friend, Pat, who committed suicide. And when Pat died, Laura was pregnant and John sort of stepped in, you know, became family to Laura and her son.

• 22:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so this is the friend who they're going on the trip with. And Laura Sullivan said the trip to Aruba had initially been just for her and her boyfriend and their children. But since everyone was so stir crazy from COVID, a bunch of their friends joined the trip and it ended up including about 60 people.

• 22:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow.

• 22:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right?

• 22:56Derrick Levasseur?

  I thought you were going to say about 15.

• 22:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  60 people.

• 23:00Derrick Levasseur?

  60 people, Jesus, man.

• 23:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they ended up being able to secure a group of rooms at the Renaissance in Aruba. And John O'Keefe was one of the friends who expressed interest in going on the trip. And he told Laura that he would be bringing the two kids along with his girlfriend Karen, who Laura had never met up until that point, right? Because this is kind of the end of 2021. John and Karen reconnected in the spring of 2020. And it's been COVID, so nobody's really out socializing. So John and Karen have sort of been in a little bubble. And now it's time to introduce other people from their lives, other, other branches of their lives. And that always can be tough.

• 23:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  So they were booked from December 31st, 2021, until January 7th, 2022. And I want to remind you that John O'Keefe dies at the end of January 2022. Laura and her family, along with John, Karen and the kids, arrived early though. They arrived on December 30th, where most people weren't arriving until the next day. So that night, the adults who were already there, they all had dinner together and Karen picked up the bill for everyone, which Laura said they were all shocked by and insisted she didn't have to do that. Karen said she was happy to do it, that she was just glad to be there amongst them all. And this is most likely because she knew what a good friend Laura was to John, how important Laura and John were together after what they'd been through and how he had stepped up for her.

• 24:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Karen probably wanted to make a good first impression. We know Karen did financially well in her career. She was known to be generous with her money, especially when it came to John and the kids. And so this is something she's offering to do. Everything seemed fine that night at dinner and John was vocal about his plans for the following day. He said all he wanted to do was sit in the pool and watch the Alabama game with Laura's boyfriend, Josh. So that day, the next day, the rest of their party, all 60 something people were scheduled to arrive, including Laura's younger sister, Marietta. That night, about 40 of these people had dinner on the beach around 7:00 PM. John and Karen and the kids did not join. Laura said they got back to the hotel around 9:30 PM and then they all rang in the New Year at the pool bar.

• 25:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  But there was some drama that evening between Laura's sister, Marietta, and Karen Reed that would come to light in the following days.

• 25:22Speaker 02

  Our hotel has a private island. The hotel we stay at has a private island and we rented all eight of the cabanas between the 60 of us that were there. And when the cabanas went on sale, I had reached out to John and asked him if he wanted me to get him one. And he said, sure. So I booked one for him and he paid me for that cabana. So we all went out that morning.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  And it was probably around, you know, 10 o'clock in the morning and they weren't there yet. And so I sent him a text and I said, you know, are you coming or do you want me to sell this cabana? Because there was other, you know, couples there, at least he could have made, you know, the money back. And he asked me who was there. And I said, everybody. And I named off, I think I named off a couple of names, I'm not really sure, but I said, everybody's here.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  And when you said that, how did Mr. O'Keefe respond?

• 26:24Speaker 02

  He said, well, apparently, I made out with your sister the other night, according to Karen.

• 26:32Speaker 03

  Now, is that the first time that you had heard that?

• 26:37Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:38Speaker 03

  So fair to say, whatever you had heard from your sister on December 31st was not that?

• 26:44Speaker 04

  Objection.

• 26:45Speaker 02

  I'll allow that. Correct.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  What was your reaction when Mr. O'Keefe told you?

• 26:50Speaker 04

  Objection.

• 26:51Speaker 02

  I'll allow it. I was shocked. I immediately found my sister and said, did you make out with John?

• 26:58Speaker 04

  Objection.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Sustained.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  And then at some point, do you go back and have heard the conversation with Mr. O'Keefe?

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, I said, I texted him back, I said, I just talked to Etta. She said, absolutely not, that did not happen.

• 27:10Speaker 04

  Objection. We'll strike that.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  Now, at some point after that exchange, then Mr. O'Keefe and/or Ms. Reed and/or the kids come out through the cabana area?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  They did, yes.

• 27:24Speaker 03

  And at any points, how would you describe sort of how Mr. O'Keefe and/or Ms. Reed was acting when they came out to the cabana?

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Karen immediately went in the water. I just recall her being, like, floating in the ocean for a good chunk of the day. John was hopping around from the different cabanas, talking to people. We kind of just kept it light. We didn't, we didn't really talk about anything that had happened. I was just kind of trying to stay out of it for now.

• 27:56Speaker 03

  Following sort of the cabana situation or the cabana day, what happened then?

• 28:04Speaker 02

  Suppose that day, I think I, I saw John one other time. Um, I saw him in the pool. It was the one time that him and I were alone. He didn't seem like he was himself.

• 28:19Speaker 02

  I don't know it. Um, he seemed distant and I asked him if he was okay. And he kind of just, you know, shrugged it off. And I said, you know, are you happy? And he kind of, you know, just rolled his eyes and shrugged it off. I said, well, you know, something along the lines of life is too short to not be happy. And he goes, well, you know, Laura, it is what it is. And I did ask him if he wanted to talk about it. I said, do you want to talk about it? And he was like, not really.

• 28:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh oh, trouble in paradise.

• 28:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, I mean.

• 28:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, I'll tell you what, it's gotta be bad. If you're out in Aruba on a private island with six cabanas or eight cabanas, whatever it is, and you still can't have a good time, it's bad.

• 29:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And I mean, you're also throwing your girlfriend.

• 29:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Under the bus right here.

• 29:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Never met, never met any of your friends.

• 29:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 29:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Into a position where there's like 60 people she's never met before.

• 29:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 29:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. She's going to be the outsider. She's trying very hard to fit in. She's picking up dinner for everybody. She's, you know, probably very stressed going into it. She wants them to like her. She, she, you know, probably she knows there's situations going on. There's people in his life that were there before and she's wondering, was there any romantic, you know, you, you've been there. We've all been there.

• 29:41Derrick Levasseur?

  All been there.

• 29:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  We've all been there. So not, not the best situation, maybe not the best introduction for your girlfriend to meet all your friends.

• 29:49Derrick Levasseur?

  And I think the circumstance does kind of support it where, as you mentioned, this is right after COVID or right during COVID where people go and stir crazy. And they're just looking for a reason. To get out of the house. So maybe it wasn't the ideal situation, but I think at that point, everyone was like, I don't care how much it costs, I'm going.

• 30:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, dude, we were all a little feral in those years.

• 30:14Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. I mean, we're like sunlight. Yes. So I mean, if you said to me during COVID, like, hey, we're all going to Aruba for a week on a private island. I'm not even asking you how much it costs. I'm just like, I'll see you there.

• 30:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. So everybody's, you know, drinking, everybody's having fun. It's sun-surfed, probably people don't have a lot of clothes on. And apparently Karen claims that she saw John, O'Keefe, her boyfriend, and Laura's little sister, Marietta, kissing. And that's kind of, we're going to talk about that. Let's take a quick break. We're going to come back and talk about that.

• 30:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Karen Reed thinks she sees John and Marietta kissing. John and Karen argue. John and Karen and the kids end up leaving Aruba a few days earlier than they normally would have. And they said it was because the kids had to get back to school, but you know, maybe also it was because they were like, let's just, let's just have this vacation be over with. It's not going the way that we wanted it to go.

• 31:16Derrick Levasseur?

  And to leave early, that means it was bad.

• 31:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I mean, it sounds pretty awesome. Honestly, it makes me want to go on vacation.

• 31:21Derrick Levasseur?

  That's what I'm saying. To leave your Aruba trip, Aruban trip early and just go home. There's, there's some serious turmoil.

• 31:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'd be like, the kids have to get back to school. It's COVID, man. They already, they already missed like seven years of school. What's a few more days going to do? But.

• 31:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Not good.

• 31:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Marietta would later testify after Laura did in the trial, and she said this kiss had never happened. She said that after dinner, she'd brought her mother to her room, her and Laura's mother. She put her mom to bed, and then she rode the elevator back down to the lobby, which is when she spotted John, who was drunk. You know, he wasn't in the best condition. He was kind of intoxicated.

• 32:00Speaker 05

  He was a very, very dear family friend. He was very close to my sister. Subsequently, he became very close to me and my family as a result. And he was my nephew's godfather.

• 32:13Speaker 03

  And it's fair to say that you had known him for some substantial period of time?

• 32:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, since Ben's father unfortunately passed away.

• 32:22Speaker 03

  So, at this point in time, when we're talking about turning from 2021 to 2022, how long had you known Mr. O'Keefe at that point?

• 32:32Speaker 05

  Oh, man. Probably about eight, nine years. That's as long as my nephew's been alive.

• 32:39Speaker 03

  And when is it that you would see, or how often would you see Mr. O'Keefe?

• 32:44Speaker 05

  Family parties, any family party that we threw, kids' birthday parties, and my sister's Christmas party that she would throw every year.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  And how would you describe sort of the nature of your relationship with Mr. O'Keefe?

• 32:56Speaker 05

  He was similar to a big brother to me. He was somebody who was there for my sister during her darkest times. So I really respected him for that. But yeah, he was a big brother and a family friend.

• 33:08Speaker 03

  Do you walk out of the elevator by yourself, correct?

• 33:11Speaker 05

  Mm-hmm, yes.

• 33:12Speaker 03

  And you see Mr. O'Keefe, could you see where Mr. O'Keefe was in relation to the lobby, or where he was coming from?

• 33:18Speaker 05

  He was coming from the outside doors, into the lobby.

• 33:21Speaker 03

  Is that where the pool bar is located?

• 33:23Speaker 05

  Opposite side.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  Opposite?

• 33:25Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 33:26Speaker 03

  And when you see him come in, who, if anyone, did you see with him initially?

• 33:29Speaker 05

  Nobody with him.

• 33:31Speaker 03

  And what, if anything, was he doing, or how was he acting sort of when he came?

• 33:35Speaker 05

  So he sort of stumbled in. I came out of the elevator, and my initial response to him was, "Whoa, you okay?" I actually said, "Whoa, godfather, are you okay?" But yeah, he was stumbling into the lobby.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  And did you go over to him and back?

• 33:54Speaker 05

  I did. I went up to him and I gave him a hug.

• 33:55Speaker 03

  What happened then?

• 33:57Speaker 05

  I pulled back. He was glassy-eyed, looking above me. We never made eye contact. He was looking above me. It looked like he was looking for someone. I asked him, "Where are you going?", assuming that he would be coming to the pool bar to meet us. He kept looking around and he indicated that he was going that way and pointed toward a bank of rooms to our right. And I said, "Well, you should go that way", and I stepped back and I guided him toward the area that he was going.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  So you pointed him in that direction and what happened?

• 34:29Speaker 05

  So I pointed in that direction. He walked off. I continued out to the pool bar.

• 34:36Speaker 05

  When I heard very loudly his name screamed across the lobby, very angrily, and it made me stop in my tracks.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  And when you stopped in your tracks, what happened then?

• 34:49Speaker 05

  I started to turn around to come back in. So once you go out to the pool bar, you kind of go around a corner and you go out of view. So I turned around to go back in. As I'm going back in, I hear someone yell, "Who the fuck was that?". And as I come around the corner, I see Mr. O'Keefe walking toward a woman. And they were... And he said, um, excuse me.

• 35:16Speaker 05

  He said, "Calm down, that's Laura's little sister."

• 35:20Speaker 03

  And what happened then?

• 35:22Speaker 05

  When I came back around the corner, I said, after Mr. O'Keefe said, "Calm down, that's Laura's little sister", I said, "Hi, nice to meet you." That's when Ms. Reed's head snapped up and she very loudly told me to go fuck myself across the lobby. And I said, "Yeah, fuck you too", and walked away.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  And just to be clear, when you say Ms. Reeves, this is someone that you became familiar with as it went along?

• 35:49Speaker 05

  This was my first interaction with her. I had never been fully introduced to her at all. I just had seen her sitting by the side of the pool when I had been talking to Johnny earlier in the day.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  What, if anything, did you observe as far as her demeanor or how she was acting at the time that this interaction was going on?

• 36:05Speaker 05

  She was just very loud. She very, you know, energetically screamed for me to go fuck myself. She was waving her hands. Johnny was trying to calm her down. And after I said, "Yeah, fuck you too," I went out to the pool bar, so I didn't see much after that.

• 36:22Derrick Levasseur?

  My first, obviously it's pretty self-explanatory, that scenario, but I do ask myself, like, why wasn't John introducing her to everyone? Like, "Hey, this is Karen." You know, it seems like she was there, but she was kind of being, like, left out, where John was going around fraternizing with all his friends and having these conversations, and she was just kind of like an outsider. It doesn't seem like he, like, she said it right out. I hadn't really spoken to her before that, other than seeing her at the pool, but she had had multiple conversations with John. You think he would have said, "Oh, by the way, this is Karen." It's kind of, I don't know, maybe I'm, maybe I'm looking into it too deep.

• 36:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, I kind of get the impression that that's how Karen felt as well. Like, she was there, but she wasn't.

• 37:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it was John and his friends and Karen.

• 37:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And, and, I mean, well, once again, we've all kind of been in these situations where we're out with, like, a new boyfriend or new girlfriend, and then we, you know, they see somebody they know, and they're like, "Hey," and they're having a conversation, and you're just standing there, like...

• 37:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. One to twelve. Yeah, maybe. It sounds, without knowing all the details, and we never truly will, because John's no longer with us, but, and I don't know how much this is going to play into the overall story, but it sounds to me like they went to Aruba already on bad terms, between them, between each other, and it just kind of carried over, where John got there and he was surrounded by familiarity, people he was, you know, friendly with, and was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna do my own thing, you do yours." So, we're here in this beautiful place, but... I'm gonna go do my thing. You do, you just hang out on your own if you want. And she probably picked up on that. He may have been even doing it deliberately. We will never know. But um, there was definitely something going on before they got there or as soon as they arrived.

• 38:02Derrick Levasseur?

  That kind of tipped this off where it just doesn't make sense to me that they're living together, right? Taking care of these kids and yet he's not gonna go around and introduce her to all of his friends. That, that doesn't make a lot of sense.

• 38:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Here's my interpretation of the dynamic. What we have here is Karen moves in with John. And she gives everything, right? She's there for him. She's there for the kids. She's buying them presents. She's throwing them birthday parties. She's trying to be the maternal, warm, um, softer side that, that they don't have, right? Cause they have John, but they don't have a mother figure. So she's trying to be there. She knows John can't. And uh, she's doing a lot. She's spending, she's investing a lot of time. She's investing a lot of energy. She's investing a lot of money. And what she gets from that is resentment from John because the kids see her as the fun parent. And him as the disciplinarian. So they're arguing about that. And she's over here like, I don't understand what I'm doing wrong. Like the kids like me, they're happy.

• 38:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  But because you don't get to be that fun part, you are resentful of what I'm providing them. And so she feels like she's bearing it all. She's giving it all and she's still getting kinda shit on, right? Now on the tail end of that, they go on this vacation and like you said, she's kind of an outsider. So she's once again, people pleasing. She's trying to go out of her way. She's buying people dinner. She's trying to be respectful. She's sort of hanging on the outskirts. She's waiting to be invited in. And then they're drinking. It's New Year's Eve. They've been drinking at the pool all day long. You know, Karen would later talk to Vanity Fair and said they were cracking beers with breakfast. First thing in the morning, drinking all day long. It's later at night, everyone's trashed, including Karen and John.

• 39:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Karen thinks she sees something or does see something. I can't say for sure what happened between John and Marietta. And she, she snaps, right? Because she's been holding it all in, holding it all in, not, you know, really setting down boundaries, not saying what she wants because she's trying to be the people pleaser, she's trying to be the good girlfriend. She doesn't want to seem like controlling or bullying around John and his friends. And, and now with the alcohol bringing down those walls, she's like, she explodes. And Marietta gets it, you know, the brunt of it. And she's, you know, telling her to go fuck herself. And Marietta's like, well, fuck you too. And probably not the best response. And so now there's, there's just chaos. And this is going to end up being embarrassing, I'm sure, for Karen the next morning when

• 40:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  she wakes up and she's like, oh, Jesus, like, how did this happen? This is not the impression I wanted to leave on these people. So Laura, Laura would testify that on the day that Karen and John left, Karen pulled her aside and apologized.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Karen grabbed me and, and she said, hey, I'm, I'm sorry. I thought I saw something that I didn't. And I would like to pay for some of your sister's room.

• 40:56Speaker 03

  And how did you respond to that?

• 40:59Speaker 02

  I said, it's absolutely not necessary. Just an apology will do.

• 41:04Speaker 03

  And did she persist in wanting to pay for the room?

• 41:07Speaker 02

  She did.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  And how so?

• 41:09Speaker 02

  She just said, I, I will apologize, but I, something along the lines of, you know, I want to pay for some of her room. Can I just have her room number? I don't remember if I gave her the remember or not. I don't really know.

• 41:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, there's an olive branch there. And I, and I was going to say something before we cut to that clip where, and this may not be specific to law enforcement, but as someone who is in the field for a decent amount of time and, and attending parties and get togethers with my fellow colleagues, without going into too many specifics, it's a, it's a wild bunch. And again, it may not just be specific to law enforcement or firefighters, but I can tell you those parties and the guys there, it gets pretty rowdy. A lot of them. Not making excuses for, uh, we go through situations that most human beings don't go through. And, and the way we cope with it is sometimes do alcohol.

• 42:06Derrick Levasseur?

  And, you know, when we do have an opportunity to blow off steam and let our hair down, we go all out. And I, I've had part, I've had nights out with friends who are cops and, you know, there's fistfights between us, you know? And it's, it's ridiculous, but you can tell when they happen, it's been something that's been building up for a while. So when you were describing John and how drunk he was that night, it just reminded me of some different occasions where the night starts off good. And I've had friends who I considered brothers when I was on the job, who I've had to reel in because they just had that one extra drink. And they go from being funny person to really dark, really dark person. And they lose themselves and they're not acting anything like the person that I know.

• 42:50Derrick Levasseur?

  And again, maybe a lot of you are out there right now and you work in completely different fields, private sector, whatever it might be. And you're like, yeah, we got those guys too. And all the things that I've been through, the, the nights out, especially when we'd go out to like bars that were like police bars. It gets, it gets rough in there sometimes.

• 43:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, there's gonna be some of that in this case.

• 43:10Derrick Levasseur?

  It, it gets rough in there. Some bullet holes in the ceilings for sure. There's definitely like some shit that goes down, you know?

• 43:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, well, there was shit going down here. Now, once again, did this kiss happen?

• 43:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  There was things happening with John and Karen suspected that he was not being faithful. Okay.

• 43:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 43:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Um, whether it was Marietta or, or someone else, Karen suspected he was not being faithful. And so this same month, they get back from Aruba and Karen Reed and one of John's friends, ATF agent, Brian Higgins. They kind of started a little texting flirtation. On January 12th, 2022, Brian Higgins and Karen Reed began communicating via text. So Karen Reed explains her brief flirtation with Higgins as sort of a way of getting something she wasn't necessarily getting from John, right? She thinks that he's losing interest in her and she says that she knew Higgins found her to be attractive and it, quote, "helped me emotionally validate myself, which is embarrassing to admit," end quote.

• 44:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now Higgins had been an ATF agent for 15 years. Before that, he was a lieutenant with the Cambridge Fire Department for eight years. But in 2017, he moved to Canton and he began working out of the Canton Police Department, where he had an office. He would later testify that he'd known John O'Keefe and Karen Reed for roughly a year. And basically, he met John O'Keefe at a bar, like a bar where police and law enforcement hang out, right?

• 44:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And by the way, while you're describing him, I'm just being transparent here. I looked him up because the name sounded familiar and I did a lot of undercover work with ATF. So I looked him up. I'm happy to report, he does not look familiar to me.

• 44:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay.

• 44:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I was like, if he was, I was like debating, do I even tell her?

• 45:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  You better.

• 45:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Because I'm like, at that point, I'm screwed. I think after the initial layout, I'm gonna be like, you gotta leave this case. I'm doing this one alone.

• 45:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know, I'd be so mad because I already did so much research.

• 45:11Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, no. He doesn't look familiar.

• 45:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, there's a lot more that we're gonna say about Brian Higgins. He's gonna pop back up several times throughout this series. But all of this to say that for Karen Reed and John O'Keefe, it seemed like there was love and attachment between them. But like many couples, they struggled with miscommunication, missed signals, resentment, betrayal, jealousy. The alleged kiss with Marietta Sullivan, the flirtation with Brian Higgins, along with the death of John O'Keefe, all happened within that same like one month period. So needless to say, tensions were rising. According to what Karen Reed would later tell Vanity Fair, her boyfriend, John, was very stressed. She felt he had not properly mourned the loss of his sister and his best friend. She felt he was overwhelmed by suddenly becoming the guardian of two young children.

• 45:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Children who had their own complicated emotional needs in the wake of losing their parents. John had reportedly brought his niece and nephew to therapy and he'd attended some sessions with them. But according to Karen, John wasn't super receptive to mental health help. He was a simple, blue collar guy. Who maybe didn't feel like there was any place for emotional struggles, especially as an adult male who's got responsibilities and people to take care of. Karen would say, quote, "I think that's part of his stock. This Irish Catholic, south of Boston, rub some dirt on it, drink through your problems mindset," end quote.

• 46:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Sounds like somebody I know.

• 46:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm hmm. Are you talking about you?

• 46:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I know.

• 46:36Derrick Levasseur?

  For sure.

• 46:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you pay, you pretty much said that. You were like, this is what we do. You know, this is very east coast. Not only east coast, but law enforcement, you know, firefighters, police officers, EMTs. Like you said, you guys see.

• 46:53Derrick Levasseur?

  We compartmentalize things until it over, until it blows over, which is when it's, that's when it's too late.

• 46:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  I always kind of, because I do the same thing, but I always kind of liken it to like a Pandora box. And you shove everything in there and you shove everything in there. And for a while that works. But one day the box is like, we ain't got no more room. And then stuff starts popping out without.

• 47:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah.

• 47:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Without your control. It's not, and it's no longer in your control because there's just no more room to shove things down.

• 47:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. When I went, when I had my shooting, they were like, oh, you know, you gotta go see, you know, a therapist and talk about the incident. And I'm like, no, I'm good. And like, we weren't, we're like, we're not asking you. It was mandatory. And they were like, you're not, you're not coming back until you do. And it was one of the best things I ever did. I talk about it a lot when I wrote my book because it opened me up to different things and it gave me an opportunity to read some literature about. How I was experiencing things and then how I process things for the books that were written by other officers. So, yeah, but, but up until that point, I, I was like, no, I'm good. I've seen it all. I've seen dead people. I've. Gone through really horrific situations where I didn't know if I was going to come home. I'm good. This is just another day. And they were like, no, it's not. So, yeah, like you said, you can.

• 48:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Build these things up, internalize them. And then what ends up happening is you have a drink or two, or you're just some, one thing is said or done. And it, and it becomes a much bigger issue than it should be because of everything else you've been holding on to for weeks, months, or years.

• 48:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  The human brain. Is both resilient and fragile at the same time. And let's be honest, had it not been mandatory, had you not been forced to get into some therapy and seek mental health help, would you have?

• 48:33Derrick Levasseur?

  No. No, even when I started the first couple of sessions, shut out Richard Carino, I was like being an asshole. Essentially, I was closed off, wasn't saying much. And for the first couple of sessions, it kind of reminded me of like Good Will Hunting, where like I'd go in there, I'd look at the clock.

• 48:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just sit there with your arms over your chest.

• 48:51Derrick Levasseur?

  He'd be like, okay.

• 48:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Super closed off.

• 48:54Derrick Levasseur?

  He never forced it because he knew he had to sign off before I could go back to work. So he was like, we're on your time, buddy. I'll wait a year. I don't care.

• 49:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  And literally, he knew you were only going to open up on your time.

• 49:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 49:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  You were not somebody who could be forced. Yeah, eight months?

• 49:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Eight months, yeah.

• 49:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wow.

• 49:10Derrick Levasseur?

  The grand jury was over.

• 49:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Wow, you're stubborn.

• 49:12Derrick Levasseur?

  The grand jury was over and I was cleared to go back to work, but I hadn't completed the psychological assessment. He wouldn't sign off on it. He wouldn't sign off on it.

• 49:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  So the whole thing took eight months, not you. It didn't take you eight months to talk.

• 49:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, by, well, the whole thing before I returned to work was eight months.

• 49:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  How long did it take before you?

• 49:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Opened up?

• 49:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Started like?

• 49:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I would say after a couple of months because it was very, it was made very clear to me that the reports are coming back and they're not, they're not good. You're not saying anything.

• 49:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, this is not a healthy way of dealing with it.

• 49:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Derek, we said you had to go, but it wasn't just to physically be there. You have to interact.

• 49:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I went.

• 49:52Derrick Levasseur?

  I showed up. It's on, look, you can see me right there. I logged in. Now, it wasn't enough, but it was, in all jokes aside, it was again, the best thing I ever did. And I have a total different outlook on therapy now because of it. But yeah, to speak about John and other colleagues of mine, this is a very common occurrence where a lot of the things we see and hear and smell on the job. It's hard to process. It's hard to process and we may not talk about it because most people can't relate to it. And so we internalize it and you don't necessarily talk about it with your colleagues because that can also be seen as weak.

• 50:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or you make jokes about it, right? Like we all, we all turn, like I know I do that. Like I turn horrible, tragic, traumatic things into like jokes. And sometimes people look at me like, what the hell's wrong with you? And it's like, I don't know. Like this is the way I'm processing, even though it's probably not the, the best way. But I think a lot of issues obviously develop in law enforcement because of this, lots of CPTSD cases and things like that.

• 50:53Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, you talked about his friend. Was his friend a cop? The one who committed suicide?

• 50:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, he was.

• 50:57Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go. Yeah. There you go. That's the other out is that you just don't talk about it. You internalize it. You have these demons and the alcohol's not doing it and police suicide's a big thing, too.

• 51:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  And on the topic of drinking, there was a lot of that going on in Canton, especially with John, Karen, and many of their friends from law enforcement, as it has been shown, sometimes on duty as well as off. We're going to take a quick break and then we're going to come back and talk about that.

• 51:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Karen Reed admits that she and John had started drinking a lot, especially on the weekends. And they looked at this as a quick and fun way to sort of unwind and like you said, blow off steam after a busy work week. John was often wound up, but when he had a drink or two, he would be at his most relaxed. Karen said, quote, "He would be easygoing, but then it was this vicious cycle that he's hung over the next day," end quote. It seemed like meeting up at bars, bar hopping, drinking, this was part of the culture for those involved with law enforcement in and around Canton. This area was also familiar with bad winter weather and something like a blizzard was not going to stop the weekend festivities. Many areas on the East Coast saw a huge nor'easter roll in on the evening of Friday,

• 52:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  January 28th. And for the entire weekend, these areas would be pummeled by high winds, with Boston and surrounding areas seeing 23 inches of snowfall between Friday night and the following day. This, along with sub-zero temperatures and wind chills, created a weather situation that the Weather Service cautioned could quote, "cause frostbite on exposed skin in as little as 30 minutes," end quote. Now that Friday, a storm was also brewing between John O'Keefe and his girlfriend Karen Reed. It appeared that they were once again arguing about how Karen spoiled John's niece and nephew, and how he had started treating her badly in response to the resentment that was building inside of him because of this. On Friday morning at 9:49 a.m., Karen texted John, quote, "You have really hurt me this time," end quote.

• 52:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  At 10:02 a.m., John replied with his own text, quote, "I'm sorry, this has been an issue with me for eight years. It physically hurts me to see everyone else in their life do things for them, and I'm forced to always be the bad guy," end quote. Now, I want to comment on this really quick. So he says eight years. He's not specifically talking about Karen, because they've only been, you know, back together for a couple of years. He's talking about since he took custody of his niece and nephew, everyone else gets to be the, the good guy, and giving them gifts, and just seeing them once in a while, and he has to, he has to be the bad guy. This is parenting, right? And, and all of us as parents have been through it. We feel the same way, like, we've got to be making the rules, and setting the bedtimes, and making sure the homework's done, but then the grandparents come in with, you know,

• 53:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  gifts, and, and they get to have fun, and, and then leave, and, and they're looked at. This is just normal parenting. He's really projecting this onto her. He's taking everybody who's been doing it for the past eight years, and, and then projecting that onto her, and punishing her for that. I personally think it's a stupid thing to be mad at your girlfriend about. These kids have been through trauma, they've lost their parents. Whatever joy, happiness, and love anybody can offer them, take it. Freaking take it, dude. And be thankful that you have somebody who cares enough about you and them to want to give it. But, like I said, there's stuff that he's going through. There's trauma that he hasn't processed yet. There's loss that he hasn't processed yet. So of course, once again, it's gonna come out sideways.

• 54:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  So at 10:09 a.m., Karen replied, quote, "I am not the same as everyone else. Most of the time, I try to do what is healthy/smart for them. More importantly, I try to support you and what you need. You just lashed out at me and said terrible things. I don't know how you've gotten to this point with me when I'm just trying my hardest. You made your point and continue to beat me down. I have a lot going on, too. Physically, I am falling apart and trying to get answers and help." End quote, just talking about her health. A minute later, Karen added on, quote, "I am just your girlfriend. I am not a perfect parent. I'm trying very hard and sometimes treat them nothing like I used to." End quote. Now, she's saying she treats them, like she gives them treats, she gives them gifts, but not like she used to, like she used to spoil them and, you know,

• 55:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  shower them with presents, and John told her to stop, so she reined it in. At 1:21 p.m., Karen texted John, quote, "Maybe you can call someone." End quote. John responded at 1:46 p.m. He says, "Like who? What time are you coming here?" Karen texted back at 2:06 p.m. saying, quote, "I don't know what time. Feel kinda out of it, just trying to clear my head." End quote. John replied back simply, "Okay." At 2:06 p.m., Karen asked John to text her when, quote, "You guys settle in." And John responded back simply with the word, "Sure." So he's being dismissive, he's being cold. At 2:16 p.m., Karen texted John again, because she clearly had something on her mind. She said, quote, "I feel pretty shitty about how this morning went down. I know you said sorry, but it really stung, especially when I've been trying pretty hard lately.

• 55:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  I feel like a loser turning around, just coming back over after everything you said." End quote. John replied back a minute later, saying, quote, "Not sure what else you want me to do. I said I'm sorry, and I was out of line. If you prefer to stay home, I totally get it." Karen texted back, telling John that things in her life had been difficult as well, and he replied, "I know." At 2:25 p.m., Karen texted, quote, "Tell me if you're interested in someone else. Can't think of any other reason you've been like this." End quote. John responded with one word, "Nope." He followed that up, saying, quote, "Things haven't been great between us for a while. Ever considered that?" End quote. Three minutes later, John texted Karen that he was with the kids and he didn't feel like talking, so I assumed that Karen tried calling him. At 2:29 p.m., Karen texted, quote, "Sorry you're not into it anymore. That's fine." But I don't want to keep trying and you keep treating me like this.

• 56:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm trying to hug and kiss you this morning and you whack me in the face with a pillow. End quote. A minute later, she texted again, quote, "Last night, you're basically like, yeah, what about when we talk about the future? So why don't you just admit you're not so much into it anymore?" End quote. John wrote back, quote, "Not how it went down, but okay." End quote. Karen texted back, quote, "Can you please admit your head is out of the game with us?" End quote. John wrote back, quote, "Sick of always arguing and fighting. It's been weekly for several months now. So yeah, I'm not as quick to jump back into being lovey dovey as you, apparently." End quote. He then texted Karen, "OMG, stop calling." At 2:32 PM, Karen texted, quote, "Then why would you start with me this morning? You start a number of fights from your end." End quote.

• 57:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  John wrote back, quote, "I've explained it a few times already, not doing it again." End quote. Karen asked John, "So you're not into this anymore?" And John replied back, "Not into fighting all the time? Correct." Karen texted back, quote, "If you tell me you're interested in someone else, you'll never hear from me again. You can have all the space in the world." End quote. She followed this up with a text in response to John's message that he wasn't into fighting anymore. And she said, quote, "Then stop starting with me." End quote. At 2:34 PM, John texted Karen demanding that she stop calling him because he was not going to answer. In response, Karen wrote, quote, "Can you please answer after how you treated me earlier?" End quote. John told her that his niece Kaylee was right next to him. And Karen wrote back, quote, "You start a rager with me out of nowhere and then tell me you're sick of fighting with me?" End quote.

• 58:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  A few minutes later, after getting no reply, Karen texted that she was going to grab a drink in a bit. She also once again asked John if he could answer her call. John texted back, quote, "No, Karen. Not sure why you need to announce that you're grabbing a drink, but have fun." End quote. Karen wrote back, quote, "Seeing if you want to meet me later, can you please call me?" End quote. For the next five minutes or so, Karen begs John to answer her call or call her back, and he refuses. He says he has to bring someone to the doctor. I assume it's his nephew because he says he has practice later. He says his father just walked in. And even when she asks for a two-minute call, John says, "Not right now." At 2:44 PM, Karen texts, quote, "I'm there when anyone else needs me," end quote. And she follows that up with another text two minutes later, saying, quote, "Yes, John,

• 58:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  you gave me utter grief this morning. I'd like you to call me for a minute. I've been trying to get over the hump with us arguing, and now you're telling me you're not into things and you don't want to fight weekly, but fly off the handle at 8:00 AM with me like you're setting me up to fail," end quote. This was at 2:47 PM, and John did not respond. So at 3:30 PM, Karen wrote, "Hello?" And five minutes later, John wrote back, "Hi." There was no other messages between the two until hours later at 7:41 PM, when things appeared to have become slightly better between the two. Maybe there was a phone call. But Karen texted John as they discussed plans for that evening, and Karen tells John that she was waiting for a plumber. John texts Karen at 7:43 PM, saying, quote, "We're taking Mike's car, so I'm relying on you for a ride home if he leaves," end quote.

• 59:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's referring to Michael Camerano, a close friend of John's. The two had plans to meet out that night with a few other people. At 7:44 PM, John texts again, saying, quote, "You have a plumber coming over at 8 o'clock? Knowing me and Pop could have handled it? Good luck," end quote. Karen replied, quote, "Yeah, but he lives right down the road," end quote. At 8:30 PM, John texts, quote, "Karen, this storm is going to be intense. Can't drive," end quote. Karen wrote back, quote, "Okay, well, if he can't, he can't," end quote. John told her that he would fix her plumbing issue on Monday, and Karen wrote back, quote, "Ha, I better not still have this problem on Monday," end quote. John wrote back, "You plan on being there?" And Karen replied, quote, "I'd like to know I can take a hot shower if I need to," end quote. John texts back, quote, "Figured you'd be in Canton till Monday. I'm getting off my

• 1:00:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  phone. Let me know what you're doing," end quote. And in response, Karen said, quote, "I think the four of us together is toxic to this relationship. Would like to limit it. You've said so yourself for probably over a year now," end quote. So Karen's referring to John's niece and nephew. When she says the four of us together and they're basically discussing where is she going to stay that weekend because although Karen has lived with John and the kids during the pandemic, she does have her own gorgeous 2,500 square foot home in Mansfield, which is about 30 miles outside of Boston, just a 20 minute drive from Canton.

• 1:00:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, I was gonna ask that, by the way, I was saving it because you were going through this back and forth, but I was under the impression they were living under the same roof.

• 1:00:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  They were during the pandemic, yes.

• 1:00:58Derrick Levasseur?

  But she has her own place as well.

• 1:01:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  She has her own place.

• 1:01:01Derrick Levasseur?

  I also have a second question, was she seeing Brian Higgins at this time? She was, right?

• 1:01:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  She was talking to him.

• 1:01:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Nothing sexual for what we know, just flirting?

• 1:01:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Flirting, yes.

• 1:01:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, okay.

• 1:01:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  So she's in Mansfield waiting for a plumber. John's like, I'm going out with my friends drinking and needs to know that you're gonna be able to give me a ride. And she's like, I'm waiting for the plumber, you know, fix this issue. And he's like, aren't you just gonna be with me at my house all weekend? And she's like, no, you know, like after what happened this morning and we've been arguing, trying to help our relationship, I probably, maybe we need some distance. And he's not super happy about that. He's also doesn't seem super happy that she's calling a plumber to handle her problem when he says he can do it.

• 1:01:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I don't know, I'm trying to reserve judgment. Text messages can be a lot. I mean, there's a back and forth there. They're both gaslighting each other. They're both saying shit.

• 1:01:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're both being a little passive aggressive.

• 1:01:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they're both being passive aggressive and without having full context of what phone conversations happened, it seemed like earlier she really wanted to talk, she really wanted to get to the root of the issue. She wanted to try to make things better and he wasn't being responsive to it. And then later that day, he's a little taken aback by the fact that she's not going to be staying with him for the weekend. So it's a little wishy washy and I think there's a dynamic there where they're both probably pushing each other's buttons.

• 1:02:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's like push-pull, right? It's push-pull. It's

• 1:02:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  And like I said-

• 1:02:21Derrick Levasseur?

  But this is all normal.

• 1:02:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  We've all been there. Yeah, it's all normal to me too. Like, we've all had a relationship or two just like this, yeah.

• 1:02:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Be with someone long and it is gonna happen. So I mean, nothing here is, this is a far stretch from the DMs we were reading from Gypsy Rose and Nicholas Goodejohn a week ago. So I could take these all day.

• 1:02:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's toxic, but not.

• 1:02:42Derrick Levasseur?

  They're not plotting someone's murder right now, so that's, that's a start.

• 1:02:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  And, and like I said, I, I see this, this, these, this is two people that, that do care about each other.

• 1:02:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:02:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  But so much resentment has built up. It's, it's hard and it seems like he's a little bit kind of avoidant. Once again, doesn't want to talk about his feelings too much, gets uncomfortable. She's trying to like delve into the feelings and, and he's like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to go to therapy and I don't want to talk about my feelings. I said, I'm sorry, let's move the hell on, right?

• 1:03:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, it sounds to me like he's over her, I'm being honest with you, especially when you talk about the Aruba thing where he's not going out of his way to show her off. Hey, here's my girlfriend, I want everyone to meet her. It's like she's there, but he almost didn't want her there.

• 1:03:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  And she's thinking there's someone else because she's getting the same impression.

• 1:03:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:03:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  That he's over her.

• 1:03:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:03:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so there has to be someone else.

• 1:03:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, there could be, or just so much has happened between them and it's left such a bad taste in his mouth that it's kind of, you know, put a cloud over the relationship.

• 1:03:40Derrick Levasseur?

  And when she says, you know, just tell me there's someone else, that's a, nobody's ever admitted to that.

• 1:03:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I don't know why they wouldn't, dude. If there was somebody else, like, tell me, I'm out, you'll never hear from me again. I've felt that way before too, you know, when people are being like dismissive or avoidant or kind of cold, I'm like, yo, if you don't want this anymore, like, say the word, I'm done. Like, he will never hear from me again. But some people like to have their cake and eat it too, right?

• 1:04:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, all I'll say is, all of this, it's important for context as we're going into this case, but nothing, nothing, nothing here where I'm like waving the red flag of like all this is.

• 1:04:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Nothing here where you're like, this woman is so mad at him, she's going to murder him that night, right?

• 1:04:14Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, absolutely not.

• 1:04:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  It actually seems like she's the one trying to salvage.

• 1:04:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, to make it work.

• 1:04:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  The relationship, I agree. So John writes back and he texts her, quote, Blizzard tomorrow, no one is going anywhere. End quote. At 8:35 PM, Karen texted, quote, maybe I'll come back late tonight, bad snow is in the early AM, I'll head up there in a few minutes. Let me know if you leave. End quote. So, Michael Camerano. He's John's friend. He worked for the labor union. He was married to his wife Catherine, who was a nurse for 25 years. In 2022, Michael and Catherine had a 16-year-old daughter and a 13-year-old son, who were close friends with John O'Keefe's niece and nephew, who were the same exact age as 16-year-old girl, 13-year-old boy. Michael's daughter, Madeline, and John's niece, Kaylee, played basketball and soccer together. And Michael's

• 1:05:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  son, who's also named Michael, played baseball with John's nephew, Patrick. The two families also lived very close together, just a five-minute drive between their homes. On the day of Friday, January 28th, both Kaylee and Madeline had received acceptance letters to Bishop Feehan High School. It's a private school. John and Michael-

• 1:05:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I'm very familiar with Bishop Feehan. We're getting close to home now.

• 1:05:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah. It's a good school, right?

• 1:05:23Derrick Levasseur?

  It's a great school.

• 1:05:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so John and Michael are obviously very proud and excited about this. They wanted to get the kids together that day because the girls didn't know yet, and they wanted to like tell them and celebrate. And so Michael and his daughter, Madeline, went over to John's house so the girls could celebrate together. And then John and Michael made plans to go out that night to get some drinks at a Canton bar called CF McCarthy's. So they left the two 16-year-old girls at John's to have a sleepover and hang out, and they left. We're gonna take our last break, and then we're gonna continue on with the timeline of that night.

• 1:05:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Michael Camerano said that they were meeting Karen at the bar, CF McCarthy's, and another friend, Kurt Roberts, was also going with them. Now, Roberts would later testify that he had not wanted to go out that night because of the incoming blizzard. You know, everybody was like battening down the hatches and staying inside because they knew it was gonna be bad. But he said, he testified in the stand that Michael called him a pussy, and he couldn't let that stand.

• 1:06:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, that also sounds about right.

• 1:06:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. So surveillance video from CF McCarthy's shows the men entering and taking seats at the bar. Michael testified that they were both drinking beer that night. Karen arrived around 9:00 PM, and according to those who were there, the interaction between herself and John O'Keefe was normal and good. Once again, surveillance video shows Karen entering and greeting John, who put his arm around her and rubbed her back as they embraced. Those who are watching on YouTube will be seeing this footage play now. At around 11:00 PM, the group at CF McCarthy's got up and they went across the street to another Canton establishment, the Waterfall Bar and Grill, where they joined another group that was already there. And this group consisted of Brian Albert, a Boston police officer,

• 1:07:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  his wife Nicole, Nicole's sister Jennifer McCabe, and Jennifer's husband Matt McCabe. There was also Brian Albert's brother Chris Albert, who was a Canton selectman, along with his wife Julie. Brian Higgins, ATF agent, was also there, along with another couple Nicholas and Karina Koltikas. So earlier that day, Brian Higgins had driven back from New York City, along with Brian Albert, Brian's younger brother Kevin, who was a Canton police officer, and another police officer named Eddie Hernandez.

• 1:07:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Can I jump in real quick and ask you a question? And we can play the video again while I'm asking it. Where in this video is Karen Reed and John O'Keefe? Because I see a couple off to the left by the bar where they almost they kiss in this short little clip, but I, it's kind of, it's kind of washed out this video.

• 1:08:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so, so John's wearing a baseball cap and sort of like a kind of a two-toned

• 1:08:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Hoodie.

• 1:08:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Shirt kind of thing. And then Karen's got the shoulder-length kind of blonde, straight hair.

• 1:08:15Derrick Levasseur?

  So bottom left-hand corner.

• 1:08:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yep.

• 1:08:17Derrick Levasseur?

  So, you know, maybe we can even circle that. But yeah, you can see it right there. So right as this clip begins, because I watched it and then you were talking a little bit more and I was watching it again. But just to play it one more time, John's got his arm around Karen.

• 1:08:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  He's rubbing her back.

• 1:08:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, she leans in, kisses him on the cheek.

• 1:08:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kisses him on the cheek. Yeah, I think she, I think she kissed him on the cheek and said something in his ear, you know, because it's loud at the bar.

• 1:08:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, so at this point, which is important, relationship seems to be okay.

• 1:08:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Absolutely, yeah.

• 1:08:44Derrick Levasseur?

  They're interacting, they're close together. And I obviously think that's worth noting based on where we're going with this.

• 1:08:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  And to be honest, this is normal relationship stuff, right? We've all had arguments with our spouses or our partners. And then we're out in public and it's like, okay, it's kind of like.

• 1:08:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, put it aside.

• 1:09:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or yeah, we put it aside, or it's just like it's over, like it's, there's ebbs and flows, highs and lows in any romantic or close relationship, intimate relationship. Um, it's not an end all be all, even if they would end up breaking up and the arguments keep happening, it doesn't mean she wants to kill him.

• 1:09:19Derrick Levasseur?

  No, no, but I do think you can put things aside and still there be some body language that suggests there's a problem, that, that doesn't look like it to me. Again, it's a short clip, but seems like they're in good, good terms right there.

• 1:09:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So remember, they're at the bar that night with Brian Albert, who's a Boston police detective, uh, police officer, his brother, Chris Albert, who's a selectman in Canton, and Chris also owns a pizza shop. And then earlier that day, Brian Higgins, the ATF agent, who Karen's got like a little texting flirtation going on with to, to stoke her ego, he drives back from New York City with, uh, Brian Albert, who's the Boston police detective or police officer, as well as Brian's brother, Chris, as well as Brian's brother, Kevin Albert, who's a Canton police

• 1:10:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  officer, and another police officer that really isn't involved with this case at all. But they were in New York City, um, at the funeral of two police officers who'd been killed in the line of duty. And they didn't know these police officers, but they were just kinda all there in like solidarity.

• 1:10:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that happens sometimes. Well, your local PD will send one or two representatives, yeah.

• 1:10:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they'd all kind of been planning to travel home the following day, but because this blizzard was expected, they decided to leave a day early, so they drove back on the morning, that Friday morning. Brian Higgins would testify that after arriving back in Canton, he dropped his work vehicle off at the police station and then picked his personal vehicle up with his plow attached from the Canton police station. He then met Brian Albert at a bar called The Hillside, which is actually where Brian Higgins had met, there's so many Bryans in this case, by the way, it's gonna be so confusing, I'm sorry. Brian Higgins is the ATF agent. He met John O'Keefe at the Hillside. This seems to be a bar where police officers hung out.

• 1:11:17Derrick Levasseur?

  I have to ask a deeper question. You may not have the answer to. Was Brian Higgins full-time ATF or was he part of a task force? Because you just mentioned-

• 1:11:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  He had an office in Canton?

• 1:11:27Derrick Levasseur?

  That he was at, that he, that, no, that you said the Canton Police Department.

• 1:11:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  He had an office at the Canton Police Department.

• 1:11:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, that's interesting.

• 1:11:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, they talk, they, they asked him about that during the trial.

• 1:11:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay, because, so he, he is full-time, he's a federal officer, he's not, he's not a task force officer.

• 1:11:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's, I don't, I don't believe so. Here's what it hap, it seems like this is what happened. Brian Higgins also lost his sister, which is when he moved to Canton. And he said, I think the sergeant at the Canton Police Department offered him an office to work out of there. And they asked him during the trial, they're like, are you the only federal agent that has an office at the Canton Police Department? And he was like, well, yeah, there's like other, you know, federal agents or ATF, they, they have permission to work out of there.

• 1:12:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Substations.

• 1:12:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I'm the only one that does have a full-time office there, yes.

• 1:12:20Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm looking it up right now. He, he was, he was an ATF agent. And I only bring this up because there are different, different task force that get formed, whether it's with the ATF, DEA, or even the FBI, it's called HIDA. But essentially, they'll, they'll recruit or, or take, uh, local officers who are familiar with the different municipalities, the different areas. They create a task force so that you have access to each jurisdiction and we work hand in hand with a series of ATF officers or FBI agents. I worked on those task force. I was never full-time, uh, ATF or DEA, but I was working under their capacity where it gave me the right to work undercover in different jurisdictions outside of my

• 1:13:02Derrick Levasseur?

  own. But, like you said, this isn't a very normal thing. But yeah, it looks like that's what it is right here. He had what, basically a substation where because it's such a, Massachusetts is pretty big. And so instead of having to always go back to the main offices, he could work out of Canton.

• 1:13:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause he was living in Canton at that point, yeah.

• 1:13:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's nice. Had his office there and had an office probably at the bureau. So that's, that's good for him.

• 1:13:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  And he talks later- This guy, man, they're all kinda, they're all kinda out there. But he talks later about like how he's been drinking all day, all night. Even though the blizzard's coming, right? And then when he leaves to go home, he goes back to the police station, even though he's got his personal vehicle. And he does this because he wants to leave the keys of, of other vehicles there or of his work vehicle. So that when the plow comes, they don't have to call him to come in and move it. Yeah.

• 1:13:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that happened to all the, happens all the time. They gotta plow the lot, they gotta move all the cruisers. So they got the peon rookie patrolman out there moving all the cars around. And yeah, if you gotta move your key, you gotta move your car or it's gonna get plowed in. You're gonna come in the next day and there's gonna be this 12-foot pile of snow and your car's gonna be underneath it.

• 1:14:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, he said he was just like, he didn't want them calling him in the morning to be like, hey, come move your vehicle because the plow's gonna, yeah.

• 1:14:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's a veteran move right there.

• 1:14:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  So, um, he goes to the hillside. He meets Brian Albert there. Brian Albert's like, hey, let's go to the waterfall. You know, because we're gonna continue the evening and I'm meeting some people there. Now, the people at the waterfall bar and grill would testify that it was a fun atmosphere at the bar that night. There was a live band playing. Everyone was in a good mood. There was no tension, no arguments. Karen Reed and John O'Keefe showed up. They walked across the street from the other bar, CF McCarthy's. And they were not only normal and happy with each other, but Katrina Kolothikis described them as being lovey dovey. Her husband Nicholas Kolothikis said, quote, "They were affectionate towards each other, loving to each other, to the point where my wife even made a comment, why are you not like that with me?" End quote.

• 1:15:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, this was the first time that Katrina had hung out with Karen Reed socially. I think she'd met her like one other time at Jen McCabe's, uh, who's Brian Albert's sister-in-law. They, she had a 4th of July party, I believe, and Karen Reed was there with John. But they didn't really like hang out or talk. And Katrina said that Karen spoke very positively about her boyfriend, John O'Keefe.

• 1:15:27Speaker 06

  She started by saying how much she admired him. Um, how much she, like how much he did for the children.

• 1:15:39Speaker 06

  Just how she looked up to him for that. She started with that. Well, she started talking about my kids first and then she started talking about John.

• 1:15:48Speaker 03

  So she spoke about your kids?

• 1:15:49Speaker 06

  About my daughter, yeah.

• 1:15:51Speaker 03

  A little bit of a glowing fashion, is that correct?

• 1:15:52Speaker 06

  She did. She always had a way of like saying, she, I don't know, she seemed to love my younger daughter and she said that she really liked her, my daughter's relationship with John's niece. So she first started with that conversation and then she went on talking about John and his relationship. So she started talking about how much he sacrifices, how he's like unconditionally puts all his time and effort into the kids, how she admired him for that and how she also wished that some of the family members would step up and help out a little bit more because he took all the burden on himself.

• 1:16:38Speaker 03

  And what if anything else did she say about that in relation to sort of their relationship?

• 1:16:45Speaker 06

  Just that she wished they had a little bit more time to, you know, go out, go on dates, go on vacation. But she did mention that they had planned a trip or something like that, that she was excited about.

• 1:16:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  So things at the Waterfall Bar and Grill started to wind down around midnight. The band began packing up, but everyone was still having a good time, AKA they were drunk. So they started discussing if they should continue the party elsewhere. At first it was suggested that they go over to D and E Pizza, which was owned by Brian Albert's brother, Chris, who was present at the bar at that time.

• 1:17:19Speaker 06

  So I think everybody was having a really good time. So there was conversation, first of all, where, where could people go? And there was talk about maybe going across the street to the pizza place.

• 1:17:31Speaker 03

  And what, what pizza place is across the street?

• 1:17:33Speaker 06

  There's a pizza place called D and E Pizza and the owner happened to be there that night. So I think someone brought it up or there was some conversation amongst the group like, hey, let's go there. And he said no.

• 1:17:45Speaker 03

  And what if any?

• 1:17:48Speaker 03

  What, if anything, did you hear the defendant, Ms. Reed, say in reference to going to the evening?

• 1:17:53Speaker 06

  She just seemed like willing to go.

• 1:17:54Speaker 03

  Was that something that she mentioned once or more?

• 1:17:57Speaker 06

  I believe she mentioned it more than once. So after that was kind of, you know, put to rest, then I think there was discussion about, well, Jen probably brought, I think Jen McCabe brought up, let's go to my sister's house.

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  And is that somewhere that you or your husband, to your knowledge, had ever been to before?

• 1:18:22Speaker 06

  We had never been to her house before, no.

• 1:18:25Speaker 03

  And was that something that was sort of a private invitation or was that sort of open to the group at the table?

• 1:18:33Speaker 06

  I think it was said out loud, like, hey, anybody wants to go, we can go to my sister's on Fairview. I wasn't specifically invited myself. I just think it was put out there. Karen went over to John, something like that. They, he like put his arm around her. I don't know if they had a conversation, they talked. It seemed like they were like quite lovey dovey at that point. And then that's when Jennifer McCabe went up to Karen and said, you're coming with me. Like, and she like grabbed her, like she put her arm around her and she said in front of me, she's like, you're coming with me, you're coming with me.

• 1:19:14Speaker 03

  And just to be clear, like sort of how she said that, was that in sort of a forceful way or?

• 1:19:20Speaker 06

  No, like joking around, like, hey, you know, you come with me, we're gonna, you know, and Karen said, where are we going? And Jen said, it's, it doesn't matter, it's, it'll be a surprise. Like, it was like something like that.

• 1:19:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  So remember that Jennifer McCabe is the sister of Nicole Albert, who's married to Brian Albert. So when they're speaking about going to Jen's sister's house, they're talking about going to the home of Brian Albert, Boston police officer located at 34 Fairview Road. And this was also the home that John O'Keefe would be found dead outside early the following morning.

• 1:19:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And everything at this point, just the thing I take away from that, because I feel like a lot of this is exposition. There's going to be a few things that we pick apart. And one thing she said there is they just seem very lovey dovey at that point. So I'm asking myself the question at this point. Especially you hear in that clip, they're referring to Karen Reed as a defendant. We know where this is going. Ninety nine percent of you know. Some of the story and you're the window of which things could have went wrong is is getting smaller and smaller, which is a good thing. Because we're trying to pinpoint a moment, if there's going to be any at all, where this lovey quote unquote, lovey dovey couple at this point. Maybe something changed, maybe something was found out, maybe something was said or done where.

• 1:20:38Derrick Levasseur?

  There would be a motive for Karen want to to want to kill John. And that's what I'm looking for right now. Is there anything that stands out where? There was a vibe that changed at some point that would be suggestive Karen intended on killing John. And so so far, we don't have that.

• 1:20:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree. I agree. So let's, before we wrap up today's episode, because we're coming to the end of part one. Let's talk about who Brian Albert was and is. So Albert was a former Marine. A thirty year Boston Police Department veteran, and at the time of John O'Keefe's death, he was heading the fugitive apprehension team. He had a very good reputation in the department, leaving his mark on many high profile cases. In twenty thirteen, he was instrumental in helping to unmask the Boston Strangler when he followed the suspect's nephew to work. In order to retrieve DNA from a water bottle left behind. He was also part of the team that tracked down Philip Markoff, the Craigslist killer.

• 1:21:36Stephanie Harlowe?

  At the time, Brian Albert and John O'Keefe had only interacted a handful of times, but Albert would later testify that he considered John a coworker. They both worked for Boston PD, even though they didn't work technically together.

• 1:21:49Derrick Levasseur?

  Together, yeah.

• 1:21:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  He didn't know John O'Keefe all that well, you know, just kind of like through other people and. Seeing each other out and things like that. It's not like they were close friends. But he said John and Karen were the invitation was open. They were welcome to come. He would have welcomed them with open arms if they had showed up. However, he and every other single person at the Albert home that evening would testify that John and Karen never did show up, although some of them say they remembered Karen's dark colored SUV parked outside the home for a short period, about 10 to 15 minutes. But they never walked inside the house, allegedly, according to everybody at the

• 1:22:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  party, even though John O'Keefe's Apple Watch is gonna say maybe something a little bit different. Okay, that's all I'm gonna say. It's crazy. It's gonna get crazy.

• 1:22:42Derrick Levasseur?

  These are things that I don't know, so I can kind of deduce where you're going with this. But this is also something, because I just said, focusing on Karen Reed, and if there's anything there that would have switched to cause her to want to kill John. But we also have to consider all the other people that you're talking about, all the other players in this game that have been mentioned throughout this evening, and that would be at that residence where John would eventually be found dead. So it's not only looking at Karen, it's looking at everyone who was at that residence as a potential suspect.

• 1:23:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  And there's more people at the residence when they get there. You've got Brian Albert's

• 1:23:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Brother, wasn't you said his brother was there?

• 1:23:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but they were at the bar, but now they go back home.

• 1:23:23Derrick Levasseur?

  To the house.

• 1:23:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  And there's more people there. Brian Albert's son, adult son, is gonna be there. A few of his friends. You've also got Brian Albert's nephew, Colin, who's gonna pop in. And don't forget, the dog, Chloe. So.

• 1:23:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Dog's important. Gotta know the dogs' names. Yeah, no, it's good to know. We're keeping these all in mind, because like I said, I know the general overview of this case, and what was the outcome, and what happened to John. But as far as all the names and all the players, I didn't know them. So it's important to see how many people they're looking at.

• 1:23:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Lots of Brian's.

• 1:23:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, exactly. But from an investigatory perspective, this information is, it's redundant for some of you, but we have to start at ground zero before we can get to the other stuff.

• 1:24:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't think a lot of this information would be redundant because.

• 1:24:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Even for the people who've dove deep into this one?

• 1:24:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, for the people who don't deep, but you'd have to watch the trial.

• 1:24:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 1:24:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  And a lot of the trial, as you know, it's like one day is eight and a half hours and maybe you get an hour and a half, 90 minutes of like relevant pertinent information out of there. I mean, one, I forget whose testimony it was, but for even the people, because you can see when you watch the, the, the trial, it's like they show the live chat. How, what it was, what they were saying as it was playing and people are like, where are we going with this? Like, what is happening? It was just an hour of like pointless, pointless questioning and nobody really knew what was going. You gotta get through that stuff. To get to, to the good stuff, to pull out like kind of some of this information, but yeah.

• 1:24:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're gonna, we're gonna, it's gonna get pretty crazy next episode. So stay tuned for that.

• 1:25:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, absolutely. And just a reminder, real quick, turkey10, criminalcoffeeco.com, merch is in stock, coffee's in stock. And hopefully, I wasn't trying to tease you, hopefully I can reveal at least one of those two announcements relatively soon.

• 1:25:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  He was trying to tease you.

• 1:25:19Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I am teasing you. I'm excited about it. Stephanie's excited about it. We just gotta get there. I don't wanna, uh, I don't wanna promise something and then have, for whatever reason, it fall through, because that would happen to me.

• 1:25:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  The time constraints are like, they have to be exactly perfect.

• 1:25:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, no, I'm probably gonna be gray, even if I pull this off.

• 1:25:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:38Derrick Levasseur?

  But we're gonna try it.

• 1:25:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't really know what that means, but.

• 1:25:41Derrick Levasseur?

  It's just the stress. But it's enlightening. I'm happy we're covering this case. It's good to know what's happening in my backyard. When I heard Bishop Fian, that struck a chord because that's where Tenley wants to go to school. She's not there yet, but that's where she wants to go to school. So I'm like, oh, okay, there's a connection. But, um, fascinating stuff. I know we're gonna get into the real good stuff, probably starting next episode. This is more of just kind of the foundation, so we can build the house and dive into the details and have our arguments about how bad the cops are.

• 1:26:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's the context, it's the context, right, of.

• 1:26:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  How were these two people with each other? What were their issues? Their relationship issues? Were any of these relationship issues?

• 1:26:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Enough to want to murder someone.

• 1:26:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Enough to want to murder somebody?

• 1:26:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Or, or even say, for the sake of this, because I feel like a lot of people know enough to hurt them severely, enough to hurt John severely and say, F him, I'm leaving him there. I think that's also important because it's a lesser degree, but there's still a level of maliciousness to that where it's like, would you, do you disregard this person that much that you know you severely injured them and you know what could happen by leaving them and yet you choose to do so? These are all questions that can only be answered by what we have beforehand. Was there anything that led up to that that would suggest, based on the video footage, based on witness testimony, that Karen was just waiting for an opportunity to, to take him out?

• 1:27:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, if you're on the other side of this, I could see people saying, listen, if she's planning on doing something like this, wouldn't it make sense for her to be at the bar, lovey dovey, quote unquote, making sure she's really lathering it up, playing it, laying it on thick, making sure everyone on the outside looks at them as this happy couple so nobody points the finger at her?

• 1:27:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, listen, there's a, in a world where I could say she was drinking, she hit him and didn't know and drove away? There is not a world, based on anything I know about her and their relationship, where she does this intentionally and leaves him to die in what she knows to be a horrible blizzard coming.

• 1:27:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, okay.

• 1:27:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can, I can say that.

• 1:27:49Derrick Levasseur?

  All right, good, well, we're gonna get into it and let us know, let us know in the comments down below, what you're thinking so far, what you know about the case. Try not to spoil it too much if you, if you know certain things. Again, this is a pretty public case and this is the problem that we run into with doing these, is not a lot of suspense to it, but that's not why we're covering it. We're not trying to create a story that you'd never heard of before. We're diving into it, Crown Weekly style, and giving our opinions on it. So, we appreciate you being here. Everyone stay safe out there. We'll be back next week with part two and we're gonna dive more into the specifics of this case and obviously get to why we're all here, the death of John O'Keefe, how it went down, how he was found, was there any forensics involved? How did they connect all the dots?

• 1:28:31Derrick Levasseur?

  That's the stuff I'm interested in and then we're gonna start to get into the deeper issues that came out, I'm assuming during the investigation and the trial.

• 1:28:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 1:28:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Okay.

• 1:28:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yes.

• 1:28:41Derrick Levasseur?

  Cool. Everyone have a good night. We'll see you next week.

• 1:28:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.