Cari Farver | Email Confessions From the Killer (Part 4)

On November 16, 2012, 37-year-old Cari Farver was reported missing by her mother, Nancy, after she suddenly stopped showing up for work and answering calls. No one had seen Cari since the morning of November 13, but her phone was active, sending messages and posting online, making it seem like she hadn’t disappeared at all. Still, Nancy was adamant something was wrong. The messages didn’t sound like Cari. As detectives began looking into Cari’s disappearance, they started receiving reports that she was stalking and threatening multiple people. For more than two years, the behavior continued, growing more intense and dangerous than anyone could have imagined. And by the time detectives finally uncovered what was really going on, they were left trying to untangle a case so complicated, and so bizarre, that prosecutors worried a jury wouldn’t believe it was true.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So today, we're diving into the fourth and final part of the Carrie Farver case. I'm excited. I'm excited to wrap this up because you know, the twists and turns.

• 0:25Derrick Levasseur?

  You sure there's not going to be a sixth part where we're going to find out she's imitating someone else, pretending to be someone, applying for their jobs, changing her name?

• 0:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or we're going to find out it was Dave the whole time?

• 0:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Imagine you throw that twist at me and everyone else where you're like, oh, by the way, it was actually Dave the entire time. That'd be actually pretty cool.

• 0:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  It was Dave impersonating Carrie and Liz.

• 0:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that would be insane. That would be insane. Real quick, before we start, we are just getting back from Crime Con at this point. We got the chance to meet a lot of you.

• 0:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  We are not technically getting back from Crime Con.

• 0:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we're recording before Crime Con.

• 0:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Technically and literally, we're recording this a few days before we leave for Crime Con, but when you watch it, our physical bodies.

• 1:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, this is inception. We were just talking about this. It's inception. And happy to see everybody again. I'm sure it was a good time. Had a couple people DM me, a couple people in the comments mentioned Patreon. For anybody doesn't know.

• 1:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  I thought you were going to be like, I had a couple people DM me about Crime Con. We had a great time. I'm like, oh, man, you're really selling this.

• 1:25Derrick Levasseur?

  No, we're not that good.

• 1:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, we had people, we've had a lot of people actually ask about Patreon lately, and I don't know why. What do you think triggered that?

• 1:33Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I think it's because on our social media and on Apple Podcasts and Spotify, they're now seeing the bonus episodes. So, real quickly to kind of break it down, and if you don't want to listen to this, you can just skip over it, but for Patreon, there's different tiers, different options with each tier, but you get like general discussions, chat rooms, that me and Stephanie are in. There's also a monthly giveaway. We've given away some pretty cool stuff up to this point. There's going to be a yearly giveaway for, or a yearly present, I guess you would call it a gift, for our top tier members. And then on top of that, we do a monthly live. Also do the bonus episode. That's probably the biggest value where you're getting an episode.

• 2:14Derrick Levasseur?

  We like to call it crime bite where it's one entire story in one episode. So you get the beginning, middle and end by the end of the episode. But if the Patreon thing's not for you where you're not as sociable and you don't want to be in the Patreon chat rooms. That's fine. We also have crime weekly plus, which is on Apple podcasts. And if you're someone who's on YouTube and you're like, hey, man, I really don't want any of the other things. I just want to be able to interact and use the emojis and get the episodes early and ad free. We have that on YouTube memberships as well. So all of the episodes, whether you're on Patreon or Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, no matter what it is. Whatever membership you sign up for, if you're someone who's like, I don't want to see the ads. I don't want to see any of the ads.

• 2:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Those are your options. Some platforms come with more values, if you will, than others, but personal preference, we've been upgrading it. We've been really getting into it and the bonus episodes have been something that people really like and we're enjoying doing them. And in fact, even though we're recording this early, we're actually going to be doing our live tonight. You won't see this till afterwards, but we do a private little live. There's probably only

• 3:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  Private little live.

• 3:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Less than a hundred people in there, right?

• 3:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 3:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Less than a hundred. So it's really personal. We're chatting with everyone. We're usually making jokes, having fun, talking about random stuff. Last month we were talking about actors and who we thought was attractive. It was a really weird conversation.

• 3:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  I gotta tell you, tonight's live is probably going to be pretty chaotic because we have been working so hard this week to make sure we have everything done. My, I'm, I'm, as the kids say, cooked mentally. So.

• 3:51Derrick Levasseur?

  You've been banking episodes for your personal channel. I've been banking episodes for my channel. And now we also have some really cool, well, I guess we can say it now, right? Cause they're not going to see this till after.

• 4:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 4:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Is that okay?

• 4:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Why? We could.

• 4:04Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know if it's going to be out yet though. Are you cool with saying?

• 4:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, we can, we can tell them.

• 4:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Why don't you tell them? Cause you, you were the one that kind of facilitated this. I just made the meeting happen with CrimeCon.

• 4:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  The people who fast forwarded. Because they don't want to hear about Patreon.

• 4:17Derrick Levasseur?

  They just missed this.

• 4:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  They're gonna miss this. Okay, so when we go to CrimeCon, because I don't know if you, if you don't, if you don't follow me personally on my channel, I've been really digging into the Epstein files. I've done several episodes on the Epstein files already, and it's just absolutely bananas. But when I noticed that there was going to be three Jeffrey Epstein survivors at CrimeCon, I was like, we cannot pass this up. Derek and I have to talk to them. Like, I need to speak to them. So we're going to be interviewing Courtney Wild, Haley Robson, and Jenna Lisa Jones at CrimeCon. And basically, we are going to be putting that out for everybody on Crime Weekly, not just Patreons.

• 4:55Derrick Levasseur?

  Everyone will have access to that one, for sure. And most of the episodes, you're gonna have access to regardless. This is just in case you wanted them ad-free. So you'll have that. If you've been watching all week this week, Crime Weekly news should have already dropped, and that was our live episode that we recorded at CrimeCon with Nikki about her mom. And the whole thing is just an amazing time. We love doing it, and we're looking forward to next year. So that was my little spiel to start the show. I think I took a total of five minutes, but some people will still be mad at us. It is what it is.

• 5:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  We're sorry.

• 5:26Derrick Levasseur?

  We're sorry. Please don't hit me.

• 5:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Whenever I get mad at my son, and I'm like, why'd you do that? He's like, I'm sorry.

• 5:33Derrick Levasseur?

  And then you're like, oh, now I feel bad.

• 5:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  I can't be mad at you, friggin adorable teenager. Alright, so let's dive in to today's episode. I'm gonna give a quick recap, because it's been a week, technically, for everyone else, but for us, it's been like two days. So for years, detectives with the Potawatomi County Sheriff's Office in Iowa believed 37-year-old Carrie Farver had willingly disappeared and was responsible for a relentless stalking campaign targeting the people closest to Dave Crouppa, a guy she went out on a few dates with and kind of dated for a few weeks. Thousands of messages, fake accounts, threats, vandalism, and even arson all appeared to point back to Carrie. If you were looking at it in a, like, a microchasm, and you weren't looking at the bigger picture,

• 6:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  and you were a detective at that point, but for me and Derek, we were like, come on, what do you think's going on here? But after reopening- The case in 2015, true detectives, Ryan Avis and Jim Doty uncovered evidence that changed everything. They no longer believed Carrie was alive. Instead, they believe she'd been murdered by Shayna Liz Goiler, who had spent years impersonating Carrie while orchestrating the chaos herself. So as detectives quickly and quietly worked to untangle what happened to Carrie, Liz continued inserting herself into the investigation. Remember now Liz is claiming Dave's ex-girlfriend, who he has kids with Amy, that's the real person who's been stalking.

• 6:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. Yep. That was a curveball last week.

• 7:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  That was a curveball. Then just one day after shifting the blame to Amy, everything took a sudden and violent turn because on December 5th, 2015, police responded to Big Lake Park in Council Bluffs, Iowa, where Dave moved. Okay. And this is also where Liz had been shot in the thigh. And according to Liz, Dave's ex-girlfriend Amy was the one who had pulled the trigger.

• 7:21Derrick Levasseur?

  And that's where we ended it. And you left us on that cliffhanger where I'm like, okay, now Liz is in the driveway and she's got a hole in her thigh. She's saying Amy shot her. My gut tells me, my gut tells me Amy didn't shoot her. Nobody shot her.

• 7:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  What is the twist is it has been Amy this whole time?

• 7:37Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, listen, the story writing here would be incredible because you had me fooled. I think you had most people fooled. So we can dive into it because I have a feeling you're gonna tell us or you're gonna reveal that Liz shot herself.

• 7:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which is absolutely bananas. That's, that's dedication.

• 7:54Derrick Levasseur?

  This is the same woman who killed her, who killed her animals in a fire.

• 7:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know. I know.

• 7:58Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know how the story ends, but the fact that she shot herself and she didn't kill more people other than Carrie allegedly, from, you know, what I know so far.

• 8:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, yeah, we haven't finished. Yeah, we don't know.

• 8:10Derrick Levasseur?

  We haven't finished, but I think all the writings on the wall, I'm surprised more people aren't dead because of her.

• 8:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's willing to see it through. This is not a person who half asses things, I guess.

• 8:20Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 8:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  So let's back up a bit and talk about this quote unquote shooting. So on December 5th, 2015, it was around 6:40 PM, police were dispatched to Big Lake Park in Council Bluffs, Iowa, because Liz had called and reported that she had been shot. So when an officer arrived, he found Liz next to her car. She had been shot in the left thigh. He asked her who shot her, and at first she said she didn't know. The officer then asked where she'd been shot, and Liz said she'd been near a bench that was about 100 yards away from where she was when the police got there. Then seemingly out of nowhere, she suddenly remembered who did it. She said, quote, "It was Amy. Amy shot me," end quote. According to Liz, she'd been lying on

• 9:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  the bench, thinking, when Amy suddenly appeared and blurted out, quote, "So you like [bleep] Dave?" end quote. Then according to Liz, Amy shot her and fled. And Liz said she had no idea where Amy went. This doesn't really make sense. Like, if someone's like, "Who shot you?" And she's like, "I don't know." And then all of a sudden, you're like, "No, I remember. It was Amy. And not only do I remember, because I just suddenly remembered I saw her face, she spoke to me and said these things."

• 9:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. Gave me her exact motive for shooting me. How convenient.

• 9:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do you ever notice that Liz makes all of these other people sound like the most crass individuals ever as well, you know?

• 9:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she's projecting, for sure.

• 9:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, like, Amy just walks up, like, "You like [bleep] Dave, huh? Huh? Is what you like?" You know, and it's like, come on, man.

• 9:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, because that's what's going on in her head.

• 9:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because that's how Liz thinks, yeah.

• 9:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely.

• 9:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's got, like, Carrie texting and being like, "Oh, your stupid ugly children all deserve to die."

• 9:55Derrick Levasseur?

  She clearly thinks her kids are ugly.

• 9:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, these are the most crass, like, aggressive, out of nowhere people that Liz is portraying in these other women. All right, so medics and another police officer soon arrived. Liz was rushed to the hospital. Meanwhile, police cordoned off the crime scene. Officers searched the park for the shooter, and a helicopter was even brought in to assist. But no matter how hard they looked, there was no sign of a shooter. And at the same time, officers went to Amy's house to see if she was there. Amy is home, right? Because she quickly shot somebody and then rushed home and acted as if everything was fine.

• 10:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she's at home making a lean cuisine or something and she's like, what?

• 10:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she's at home, you know, in the middle of like Sunday cleaning or something. She she answers the door, holding her son. She finds police standing outside with guns pointed at her. I would have been pissed. Officers questioned Amy. She was fully cooperative and probably completely confused. She denied having anything to do with Liz being shot, of course. And one officer touched the hood of Amy's car and immediately noticed it was cool to the touch, which is really, you know, it's like a quick way. Because you can't get there on foot. What other car would you take? You're obviously back home, so you didn't walk. Unless there's some accomplice here who's giving you rides to and from the park to shoot someone in the thigh. You probably weren't there because your engine's cold.

• 11:15Derrick Levasseur?

  You would expect that engine bay to be warm and that hood to be hot, so or at least warm. And so that is a quick way to be like, huh. Well, if she got there, she did it on a magic carpet because she didn't take this car.

• 11:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  A magic carpet ride. So this told the detectives that Amy clearly had not driven anywhere recently. And based on that, police did not think Amy was involved, so she wasn't arrested.

• 11:34Derrick Levasseur?

  And by the way, I'm sure, again, that these police officers have been on the job a little bit. You can tell. I don't even know how to explain it.

• 11:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, just an initial gut feeling of like, this person genuinely seems like.

• 11:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Their reaction.

• 11:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 11:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Either they're a Oscar winning actor.

• 11:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or like a sociopath, yeah.

• 11:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's pretty organic. And you can tell, there's been multiple times where we show up on something or we've responded to a fight and you can tell immediately who's involved and who isn't, just by the reactions, right? Oh, what are you talking about, officer? But you can see that they're looking around and they're sweating and you could tell they just went through something. And then there's the times when you walk up on someone and they're like, whoa, hold on, pause, what did I do? Like, you can just tell they have no idea what you're talking about.

• 12:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  Authentic reaction, yeah.

• 12:19Derrick Levasseur?

  And immediately you're like, oh, this isn't the person.

• 12:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Let me second. I do this with my kids all the time. I'll tell them I know something and then just see how they react. And if they react in a way where it's like even slightly like, oh, I'm caught, then I know. But if they're genuinely confused, I can tell, I can tell the difference. So. Yeah, they did not arrest her. That's great. But while officers were searching for Amy or the shooter, and while they were making the trip to her house, Liz was still at the hospital, where doctors confirmed and determined that the bullet had gone straight through her thigh. So a detective soon arrived to interview her and Liz said she felt nervous earlier that evening after noticing a silver car parked near her house. It looked like Amy's car, but by the time Liz stepped outside to get a better look, it had vanished. She said she went to the park to think,

• 13:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  and while laying on a bench, Amy suddenly showed up and shot her, most likely with Dave's stolen gun. Because remember, somebody broke into Dave's apartment and stole his gun.

• 13:16Derrick Levasseur?

  How convenient.

• 13:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, so while the detective was interviewing Liz, he got a call from one of the officers who had gone to Amy's house. And this officer was like, listen, I don't think Amy's involved. So then the detective told Liz, hey, I just talked to one of the other police officers who went to Amy's house. She was there. Her engine's cool. Doesn't really think, feel like she was involved and

• 13:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Has her baby in her hands? Nobody else there to watch them? Who was watching the baby?

• 13:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then Liz was like, well, it sounded like her. It sounded like Amy. You know, so now, now Liz is backpedaling.

• 13:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I didn't get a clear look.

• 13:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, like I know I really said it with my chest, like it definitely was her. But now I'm just gonna say it sounded like her. But remember, Liz is also the person who, days before this, is talking to one of the detectives that's looking into Carrie's death. And now Liz is saying to this guy, hey, I know for years I've been saying Carrie's the one stalking me and Dave, but now I think it's Amy. So it's really kind of obvious that she's setting it up to appear that way, that she's trying to weave a narrative for these detectives as if she's smarter than them. And I mean, maybe it's because she was smarter than the first few of the detectives that were on the case, but

• 14:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, specifically a sergeant.

• 14:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, a certain sergeant.

• 14:31Derrick Levasseur?

  I also think there's some desperation here where she's so deep into it at this point. She's trying to find a way out and she's trying to have it be on one loose end that she can tie up. And they go to prison and that's the end of it. But her stories aren't making And she has people who have half a brain investigating it and they're able to quickly deduce that something's not adding up.

• 14:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  I was almost wondering if Liz at some point was getting like an indication that things were about to come to a head.

• 15:01Derrick Levasseur?

  I, I, that's what I'm saying.

• 15:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like she knew the police were talking to Butter Bow, right? And she's kind of thinking like, hey, I've been telling all of these people lies, different lies. It's all going to come to a head. They're going to find out Carrie's dead. And if I start to make Amy look like a crazy person, then when they find out Carrie's dead, I can see that Amy killed Carrie. And I'll have some reasonable doubt.

• 15:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Setting up some more safety nets. I also think we were kind of joking last week when we were talking about, I don't remember if it was D- Dodi or Avis, but someone, one of the two was like, hey, yeah, no, I'm, I'm actually working this case and they followed her out and they were able to get her phone and he was playing nice and we were, we were kidding around saying she probably thought he was flirting with her. But the reality is there may have been a part of her that's like, hmm, this detective's taking an awful big interest in this and maybe he's doing this for other reasons. This is not good. Maybe she picked up on that.

• 15:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, she went in to report that she was worried about Amy stalking her. And so then he followed her out as in like, oh, I overheard you. Like this is really concerning, not saying like I'm, he wasn't saying like, I'm investigating Carrie Farver's disappearance. He was like, oh, I just heard you talking about this. Like this is concerning. If there's any way I can help kind of thing.

• 16:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. And he took an interest in it. And I'm saying this, and this is kind of like a knock on law enforcement. What you will find if you've had experience with law enforcement. In some departments, they're not as willing to help. Like they only, if it's not their case, they don't care about it. So to have a detective go, oh, I was just, I had overheard your, you know, what you were saying there and that's terrible. You know, what can we do? You know, how can I help? You don't normally get that type of bedside manners and I, I would like to think you should, but you don't. And so maybe she's like, huh. This guy is awful willing to kind of like help me out right now. Like, why is that? What's the motive here? You know, and maybe she was like, I gotta elevate this.

• 16:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  You could be like, police usually aren't this attentive.

• 16:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, exactly. And maybe that's what led to, or part of it was like, I gotta, I gotta raise the stakes here. I gotta do something. I gotta put Amy behind bars.

• 17:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  I definitely think that she probably knew, like, hey, I've set a lot of dominoes up over these past few years, and there's absolutely no way that they're gonna just, this is never gonna be found out.

• 17:13Derrick Levasseur?

  No, eventually someone's gonna put two and two together that Carrie isn't alive, and they're gonna be able to figure out how long she's actually been gone, and it's gonna leave the big question, well then, if it's not Carrie, who? Who's sending these messages?

• 17:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  I just think it's weird that Liz keeps giving her phone over to be downloaded. Even after she asked Todd Butterbaugh, like, when they download your phone, what do the police get from it? And he told her.

• 17:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, I think part of it is like hubris, right? But also, maybe the feeling that if she doesn't give it over, it makes her look guilty. So she's like, oh, yeah, of course. Like, almost calling their bluff. Like, I'll let them download it in the hopes that they don't actually do their job, or that maybe Sergeant Phillips is still on the case. And then, you know, just slip through the cracks, you know?

• 17:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I also think she's thinking, I'm able to explain my way out of everything, and have been for my entire life. So I'll just make something up. I'll be like, wait, how did that picture of Carrie's SUV get on my phone? She must have put it... She's in IT, you know, she must have put it on my phone somehow.

• 18:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Or she turns around and blames Butterbaugh.

• 18:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's Butterbaugh, or Dave did it, because, you know, I'm dating Dave. He must have taken my phone and taken that picture, trying to frame me. Like, she thinks if I continue making excuses, and nobody can ever really pin me down, and I'm all over the place, I might be able to get away with this.

• 18:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, just scatter it so much.

• 18:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it wasn't long before detectives working Carrie's case learned Liz had been shot, and they were immediately suspicious. So they asked Amy and Dave to come in and speak with them. They didn't tell either of them that they believed Carrie was dead, or that she had never been a stalker. Instead, they asked Dave and Amy if they could download their phones to review the messages that they'd been receiving. And they both agreed. So when Anthony Kava, who's the IT guy, he looked through the data from Dave and Amy's phones. He learned that Dave alone had received around 15,000 emails and more than 25,000 texts from Carrie, quote unquote Carrie, AKA Liz. And many of the emails had been sent from Todd Butterbough's IP address,

• 19:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  which meant they really came from Liz because she's living with Todd Butterbough. And remember, she was like, I'm gonna live with you and move in with you, but I'm not gonna sleep in the bed with you. I'm gonna go in the basement. The basement was like Liz's troll cave.

• 19:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Her lair.

• 19:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Her troll lair, not the Bat Cave, the troll lair, where she's got probably more than one device set up. And she is working overtime to send all of these texts and emails. And she's doing it from, I feel bad for Todd because she's doing it from his house, you know?

• 19:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Do you, do you feel bad for Todd, though?

• 19:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Kind of, yeah.

• 19:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, wouldn't it raise

• 19:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 19:52Derrick Levasseur?

  A red flag for you if the person you're seeing is like, oh, I have to sleep downstairs?

• 19:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, for sure.

• 19:57Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, come on.

• 19:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  As a reformed, trusting person, I remember being that way where I was like,

• 20:02Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know.

• 20:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know, they probably have a good reason for being this way. They, they had a hard childhood.

• 20:09Derrick Levasseur?

  You just have a bigger heart than me because I don't have a lot of sympathy for them. I, I, I just feel like maybe there's a world where Todd just looked the other way because he was like, you know, I like the, I like the company. I like the attention.

• 20:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  But he also said, remember at some point, he was like, I kind of didn't really push Liz because I was afraid of what she might do to me.

• 20:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Right. I, I think, so I mean, there's a lot going on there and yeah, fine. We'll get, we'll, we'll give, we'll give Todd the pass.

• 20:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right. Currently, as it stands. So let's take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 20:41Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 20:54Derrick Levasseur?

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• 22:07Derrick Levasseur?

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• 22:07Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 22:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, we're back. So by this point, Potawatomi detectives had even more proof that Liz had been posing as Carrie, but they still needed more. So crime scene technicians processed Carrie's Explorer again. Now, previously, the vehicle had only been searched for fingerprints, remember? But this time detectives were looking for blood. They didn't find any. That same day detectives in Council Bluffs asked Liz to come with them to the lake and try to recreate what happened during the shooting. They also brought a metal detector, because remember, the bullet went straight through Liz's thigh. So now they're gonna try to find projectiles, shell casings, maybe even the weapon itself. If it had been discarded somewhere in the park.

• 23:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  When detectives asked Liz to show them where she'd been shot, she did not take them to the bench around 100 yards from the parking lot. This was the one she originally mentioned because she was outside of her house and she saw a silver car and she was like, that looks like Amy's car. And then she tried to get a closer look and the car was gone. So she was like, I better go and drive to a park and lay on a bench to think about this.

• 23:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Makes sense. I tracks.

• 23:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  She did not take them to that bench. Instead, she walked right past it and led them to the opposite side of the lake. And there was another bench there, but it definitely was not the same one she described before. And you'd have to wonder, how after getting shot in the thigh, would you be able to make it all the way from that bench across the lake? Back to your vehicle to where you were found. Like that would probably be a little bit more difficult than stumbling 100 yards from a bench to your car to call the police.

• 24:04Derrick Levasseur?

  But I can tell you this, there would be a blood trail.

• 24:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  There would be blood all over, right?

• 24:08Derrick Levasseur?

  There could be blood all over the grass or sand or whatever.

• 24:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  She might have like passed out from blood loss at that point.

• 24:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Probably. And even though it was a through and through, I'm assuming at this point, it didn't hit like a major artery or anything. But still, there's a lot of, there's a lot of blood flow there.

• 24:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Unless you're wrapping it and tourniqueting it or whatever, which I don't believe she did. So detectives searched that area across the lake thoroughly, but they came up empty. There was no projectiles, no shell casings, no weapon. At that point, Council Bluffs Police believed Liz had likely shot herself and the detectives working on Carrie's case, they agreed. They became deeply concerned for Amy's safety. So they quietly put a protection plan in place. They obtained a warrant to place a GPS tracker on Liz's car. They also created a geo fence around Amy's apartment complex, meaning if Liz's vehicle entered the area, detectives would receive text alerts if she stayed too long.

• 25:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, I think if you're entering the area at all, you're, you're there too long because we already have, you know, we don't have, I guess, all the evidence that you need to arrest her, but the detectives are already like, yeah, we definitely think she killed Carrie Farver, right? And now she's doing the same kind of thing with Amy. This seems to be where she's headed to also kill Amy. And then, you know, take over her identity and do the same thing over with Amy that she did with Carrie. So you shouldn't be anywhere near her house at this point.

• 25:35Derrick Levasseur?

  And you're right, at this point, the only way to make sure there's only one side of the story is to make sure that Amy's dead. Right? Because Carrie can't speak for herself.

• 25:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, cuz Amy's already thrown a wrench in your whole shooting you in the thigh story by denying it.

• 25:49Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right. So this is the, this is the wrench in the plan, right? This is a variable that you can't control. So anything you say or do that you try to pin on Amy, they can go ask her about it. And that's not good for Liz. That's not what she wants.

• 26:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  But here's another thing, you're bringing Amy and Dave in to talk to them. And you're like telling them all things that, you know, what's going on here? But you're not telling Amy, hey, someone named Liz is kind of like after you and seems to be targeting you. And we have a strong suspicion that she already killed somebody. So Amy kind of really doesn't even know. And I have a problem with this cuz at this point, I feel like the only way you can protect Amy or really anyone else is to arrest Liz. You do, do you feel like you have enough at this point to place her under arrest for something?

• 26:33Derrick Levasseur?

  The way you're telling the story, it sounds to me like at this point, they have enough to arrest Liz. Especially unless the, the, the order's a little off.

• 26:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  For impersonation or like filing a false police report or something.

• 26:46Derrick Levasseur?

  No, well, but when you, when they figure out that it's coming from Todd's IP address, you can reverse engineer it from there. All the emails that were sent, the things that were said in those letters, the photo being found on her phone, totality of circumstances. You could build a pretty strong case against her at this point. With Amy, the only thing I would push back on is I do think you have an obligation to let her know that her life is in jeopardy. I would probably refrain from letting her know that we believe Liz is responsible for another murder because just for chain of custody issues.

• 27:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  You don't want Amy to start talking to people and then get it back to Liz that they're investigating her for murder.

• 27:20Derrick Levasseur?

  But you can, you still, your number one priority is to preserve life. And so without jeopardizing the investigation, you can still let Amy know that we need to protect you. You need to be cognizant of your surroundings. This person could hurt you. And so you can do that without letting her know that Liz is a suspect in another murder. You could still accomplish the goal.

• 27:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but so at this point, they've got a GPS tracker on Liz's vehicle. They've got, yeah, Amy's house geofenced, right? But Amy's pretty much still like not really knowing

• 27:52Derrick Levasseur?

  No, kinda in the dark here.

• 27:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  The depths of this, yeah.

• 27:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, which is concerning, especially having a small child at home.

• 27:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I don't even know if they told her, like, we're gonna geofence your house and we're gonna, you know, put a tracker.

• 28:02Derrick Levasseur?

  They wouldn't have to.

• 28:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  They wouldn't have to.

• 28:04Derrick Levasseur?

  No.

• 28:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  So council bluffs, police agreed they would immediately respond to protect Amy if Liz's vehicle went into that geofenced area and stayed too long. But once again, Amy has absolutely no idea of any of this is happening. And so the tracker alerted police many times every single day to Liz's presence in the area. Once again, this is time to arrest her. Now, usually she would just drive through Amy's parking lot and leave, so officers never intervened, but detectives knew they needed to ramp up the investigation. So they invited Liz to Detective Doty's office under the guise that they had found Carrie deceased. And this was Doty's first time meeting her. She's already talked to Avis.

• 28:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  So he introduced himself to Liz and explained he was working a missing persons case and the detectives had found remains they believed belonged to Carrie. But at this point, they don't know. They don't know where Carrie's remains really are. And Liz theoretically does, right?

• 29:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 29:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because she's the one who killed Carrie, so they've got to be very careful with this conversation.

• 29:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 29:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because if they say the wrong thing, she's gonna know they're foolish.

• 29:10Derrick Levasseur?

  And they're smoked out, that's it, yeah.

• 29:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm. So Liz acted like she did not know much about Carrie. She claimed they had only met once in passing. Liz said she originally believed Carrie had been stalking her, but now she thought it was Amy. And Detective Doty played along and told Liz he hoped to build a case against Amy for Carrie's murder, but did not yet have enough evidence. If he had proof Amy made threatening statements or implied she had done something to Carrie, that kind of evidence would be like gold. That's how he explained it to Liz. And wouldn't you know it, after that meeting, Liz found this gold evidence. She forwarded an email to Doty claiming Amy had sent it to her. And the subject line read, "I shot you." And the email said, quote, "I shot you, Liz, to make sure Dave stayed away from you. I got rid of the gun.

• 29:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Looks like the police haven't arrested me. No one has proof it was me." End quote. Except this email you just sent, Amy.

• 30:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And where's that email sent from again? Let me guess, probably Todd's IP.

• 30:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 30:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Or somewhere that's connected to Liz.

• 30:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Dating an IT person and not understanding what IP addresses do and how it's easy to like, figure out where things came from, if you know how to do it, it's a little of an oversight on Liz's part. She should have been maybe having more conversations with Todd. You should have been taking advantage of this boyfriend that you were using for a babysitter. You should have used him for what was in his hat, honestly, more.

• 30:34Derrick Levasseur?

  I agree. This is 2012, not 1912. At this point, IP tracking, metadata analysis, it's all a thing. And you would think she would have done her research.

• 30:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  So this was kind of what the detectives had hoped for, right? Liz impersonating Amy and essentially confessing to shooting herself. The problem was she confessed to the wrong crime. Detectives had needed Amy to talk about Carrie Farver. And so Doty told Liz the shooting at the park was not even his case, not his jurisdiction. And he's like, ah, you know, unfortunately, I can't really do anything with this. There's another department handling that investigation, but I'm on Carrie's murder and I need information about that. Like, I really wish you had something that could help me with that. And Liz was like, don't worry, I'll work on it. I'm gonna go home to Todd's tonight, sit in the basement and fabricate this evidence that you need.

• 31:25Derrick Levasseur?

  Well, here's the angle I'm looking at. And by the way, this is a genius move. It's risky, as you said, it could really blow up in your face. However, you're telling that, you're telling this person that you believe killed Carrie, that you found her body.

• 31:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  You think you might have remains that might be hers, yes.

• 31:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Might be hers, believing that this person knows exactly what happened to her. So if she's, if Carrie's in a location that Liz can't go back and confirm whether or not they found her, you could have a scenario now where he wants her to specifically talk about Carrie, because if she provides an email from quote unquote Amy, providing information about Carrie's death or disappearance, that only the person responsible would know.

• 32:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Guilt knowledge, yeah.

• 32:08Derrick Levasseur?

  Bang, there you go. Guilt knowledge, right? Now they all they have to do is show that the email wasn't sent. From Amy and was sent from Liz and you got her dead to rights. It's a really, it's a really cool angle and I'm impressed. I'm impressed by Dodi and Avis this entire time.

• 32:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Also, they have Liz's car with the track around it now. So let's say she's like, well, let me go to the place where I put Carrie's remains to see if they really did find Carrie's remains.

• 32:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's brilliant.

• 32:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Right?

• 32:33Derrick Levasseur?

  It's really good investigative work.

• 32:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Facets of this where you could potentially catch her up right-handed.

• 32:37Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep. It's really, it's a really good job. Makes me happy.

• 32:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Within days of Dodi telling her like, ah, it's really Carrie's murder. I need evidence on.

• 32:48Derrick Levasseur?

  I need, I need just some gold.

• 32:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  Just, you know, could you find something? You've been so good. I mean, we might want to hire you after this.

• 32:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Oh, I'm sure they did throw that line out there too.

• 32:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  So within days of this meeting, Liz forwarded another email to Dodi. This one said, quote, "When I met crazy Carrie, she would not stop talking about Dave and him being her husband. She tried to attack me, but I attacked her with a knife. I stabbed her three to four times in the stomach area." End quote. Now, the email claimed that after being stabbed, Carrie was still alive and begging for her life while Amy supposedly spent the, quote, "whole time watching the life drain from her body," end quote. Oof.

• 33:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Wow.

• 33:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, Liz. So the email continued, quote, "I then took her out and burned her. I stuffed her body in a garbage can with crap. She was carried out to the dumpster, probably when Dave took my garbage out for me. So be glad I did not do you that way, Liz. I will never admit to Dave or police, no one. Maybe I'm drunk now and just telling lies to you. Dave will always take care of me and protect me, so I will never have to go to jail. When I followed you that night, I shot you. I left my baby home because he was sleeping. Made sure I called Dave and texted him for my alibi, so you can never prove it was me," end quote. Except for the email of you confessing.

• 34:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, yeah, the email with your head with your email header at the top.

• 34:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  If Liz wants the police to believe that Amy sent this email, then it would mean that emails like this would be, you know, be have some weight with the police. So if Amy's like, no one will ever figure out it was me as I confess everything to you like a a supervillain and in a bad movie and send this email to you like. And now at this point, I feel like Liz has just absolutely lost her mind because.

• 34:33Derrick Levasseur?

  No, but she feels like this is her way out.

• 34:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  How though? Because it seems so obvious.

• 34:38Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I think I think to her, well, she's not the sharpest tool in the shed, clearly. I mean, there's a lot of things she's done in this case.

• 34:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  She almost has like, like she's delusional about how things look.

• 34:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Uh, she's, she lacks self-awareness. She's definitely mentally disturbed. And in her mind, it all makes sense, but in reality, everyone else watching is going, what are you doing? But to kind of break down what she said there in this email or quote unquote, Amy said in this email. It's important because obviously what she's describing here is brutally murdering Carrie. But more importantly, burning her body, disposing of it in the, in the garbage and having it end up in a dumpster, which would mean it would end up in a landfill. So if that's true, then more than likely you're never going to find Carrie. And that's, that's important in this case because you're looking at a no body homicide.

• 35:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And then Liz went back to Doty with that email, right? And he was like, okay, now I need some really solid gold evidence about who Jack the Ripper was. And a few days later she came back and she was like, here, I got an email from Jack the Ripper. And he's like, hey, it's Jack. Hi, hi Liz. How are you doing? Writing you from the 1800s. Just want to tell you what my identity is like.

• 35:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Coincidentally, it just always comes her way.

• 35:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  It just, they, they, she gets, she's manifesting, right? The detectives are like, I need exactly this in an email from exactly this person. She's like, hold on, let me go home, manifest on this, meditate and really like bring this energy that you need towards me. I got you. I help you.

• 36:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Maybe you're going to address this, but. In my head right now, I'm thinking if there's any truth to what she's saying here, did she stab Carrie?

• 36:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  You mean if she's describing what she did to Carrie?

• 36:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, right. If she killed her in the apartment, or if she killed her at the entrance way, you would expect to find some remnants of this bloody crime scene, even if it was cleaned up, whether it's bleach or whatever. But I don't know, looking back at these four, four parts that we've done, if they did that.

• 36:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  It sounds like she's trying to say that she did it at her house, right? I took her out and burned her. I stuffed her body in a garbage. She was carried out to the dumpster, probably when Dave took my garbage out for me.

• 36:52Derrick Levasseur?

  So how did she get her back to the apartment?

• 36:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know, but I, I don't know if that's exactly what happened. But I think that the whole stabbing thing and all of that, she's going to describe that accurately if she suspects that they might have access to remains or something like that. Because you can burn somebody, but you still can't burn them to an extent where, you know, like what, what are we talking about here? You don't have some high-powered incinerator.

• 37:18Derrick Levasseur?

  No, but that, that would make sense. That would make sense because if what you're saying is true, then it would also give her even more incentive to burn her house down, or burn her place down, because that's where forensically they would be able to tie the murder to Liz.

• 37:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  If that's where she was, yeah, but how would she get her there? That's very, that's interesting.

• 37:35Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know, but maybe it's just by force. If they're in the car, right? If she, if Carrie comes downstairs, Liz has a knife and says, "We're going for a ride. Get in the car. I'm gonna kill you right here." Maybe, maybe Carrie freezes and does what she says.

• 37:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you're saying Carrie leaves Dave's apartment to go to work? She gets in her car, maybe Liz is already in there, pops up from the backseat, holds a knife to her neck, drive?

• 37:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, and that would explain maybe why the fingerprints gets on the little mints or whatever in the car. So that could be what we're talking about here. But- We shall see.

• 38:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, just 30 minutes after this first email where Amy is confessing everything to how she killed Carrie, Amy sent another email to Liz and this one confessed to the arson at Liz's house. The subject line read, "Fucking crazy bitch," and began, quote, "Now that I got your attention, don't ever come back around my kids, Dave or me. Just like your house getting burned was me. That's another thing that Dave won't believe either," end quote. Except you're putting it in writing.

• 38:35Derrick Levasseur?

  But here's the thing, right? She's at home, writing these letters. Her wheels are turning. She's thinking about, did they find remnants of Carrie? And it reminds her of something that she had also done to try to destroy evidence: burn her house down.

• 38:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  And if I can prove Amy was at my house, then that would, yeah.

• 38:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Hey, listen, there's a lot more to talk about. I'm into it. I really want to hear how this one's gonna end. Let's take a break. We'll be right back.

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• 39:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, they're amazing. Listen, I get it. Everyone's like, oh, it's just a hose. But when you have a hose that doesn't work, it's a pain in the, you know what? When you're trying to walk around your yard and right now, you know, summer has officially started and you're outside every day watering something. So it's definitely convenient to have a good hose.

• 39:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  I've seen it before. I've had to use hoses, even though I don't want to. I have a pool and a koi pond and they're always needing more water. And then they're just like heavy and they, I don't know how. You put them back the way you think they should go. And then when you go to take them out, they're all tied up and knotted and you're yanking on it. You're making it worse. But that does not happen with the Pocket Hose Ballistic. It's such an upgrade. It's incredibly lightweight, really lightweight, easy to move around. And when you turn the water on, it expands and then it shrinks right back down when you're done. So you're not wrestling with this giant heavy hose afterwards, which, you know, that was my arm workout for a while. So I'm gonna have to figure out something to supplement it with.

• 40:13Derrick Levasseur?

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• 40:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  It actually makes the Pocket Hose five times stronger than steel.

• 40:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, think about that for a water hose.

• 40:44Stephanie Harlowe?

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• 41:15Derrick Levasseur?

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• 41:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  Okay, so obviously now we have these emails, right? And they're confessing things. They're confessing the arson. They're confessing to Carrie Farver's murder. So Anthony Kava, the IT guy, he immediately got to work tracing the IP addresses from Amy's messages and learned, of course, that they were coming from Todd Butterbough's house. Now, at that point, it was very clear that Liz had been posing as Amy, just as detectives suspected. So within a few days of those emails being forwarded to Detective Doty, Liz told him she would not be able to help him build the case against Amy for a while because she was too busy moving. So it's like, I'm too busy to send myself emails, so I can't have anything else to give you. It's like, you're too busy moving, so what, you stop being harassed?

• 42:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, the person stops sending emails.

• 42:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I'm too busy moving, so Amy's not bothering me right now because I'm moving. But when I'm settled, I'm sure something else will come in. So this wasn't a lie technically because after the shooting Todd had finally convinced Liz that she had to go. She had to get the hell out of his house. He told her he could not be involved in whatever dangerous drama she'd been swept up in and she needed to go. So Liz then moved to Persia, Iowa, a town of around 300 people about 35 miles northeast of Omaha. If I'm Liz, I'm heading for the border at this point. I'm not staying in Omaha. Okay. Like, I'm like, okay, things are getting hot here. I'm sending crazy emails. Um, Canada looks good, you know,

• 43:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  at this point. I'm not staying in Omaha. She's out of her mind. So over the next few weeks, Liz continued speaking with Detective Doty a handful of times and continued forwarding him more incriminating emails supposedly sent by Amy who politely waited for Liz to finish moving before resuming her stalking and harassing activities.

• 43:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm hmm. How nice of her.

• 43:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  So Liz told Doty she was frustrated. It was taking so long for the police to arrest Amy. And at the same time, she kept telling Dave over and over again that Amy had been the one stalking them all along, not Carrie. According to Liz, Amy was responsible for burning down her house and shooting at her, but this strategy ended up backfiring for Liz because Dave, this was not some new person he was dating for a few weeks. Dave had known Amy for more than 15 years.

• 43:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, they had kids together.

• 43:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  They had kids together.

• 43:50Derrick Levasseur?

  They weren't legally married, but it was like they were married, you know?

• 43:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  They had gone through way more things, lived together, all of that. He was absolutely certain Amy would never hurt anyone. There was simply no way she was capable of the things Liz was accusing her of. And at this point, Dave's probably like, man, maybe I should have just stayed with Amy. Because she's a good person. She's the mother of my children. I went out here trying to find, you know, plenty of fish. I wanted, I wanted more fish, but these fish have not been great.

• 44:19Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't know. Dave doesn't seem like the, uh, quite the logical thinker to me, but I could be wrong. I've been rough on Dave this whole series, but...

• 44:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, at least when he was with Amy, he wasn't being stalked by, by multiple people as far as he's concerned.

• 44:31Derrick Levasseur?

  That is true.

• 44:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  So in late January of 2016, Dave finally called detectives and he shared his concerns about Amy. Being blamed for all of this by Liz. Detectives decided to tell him part of the truth. They explained that they believed Liz had actually been the one stalking him. And they made it clear that they thought she was extremely dangerous. They also told him they feared Amy and his children and then Amy's new baby, they could be in danger. So after that conversation, Dave called Amy. Now, Amy had suspected Liz all along and had raised concerns over the years because a woman's intuition cannot be beat. You know, Amy was over there telling Dave, like, how many red flags does Liz have to show you?

• 45:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 45:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Before you're, you're like, yeah.

• 45:15Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, like, what are we doing here?

• 45:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  As a woman, I can tell you that this one you're dealing with, kind of out of her mind, I would step back. And Dave was like, but she jumped on me. So Amy's been trying to warn Dave for a while. Dave had not believed her until now, because he's not too smart. And so Amy basically told Dave, I told you so, which, I mean, I don't, I don't blame her for that. Like, I usually don't like an I told you so, but in this situation, it's warranted. So then Dave and Amy decided to move in together so they could protect the kids together and keep an eye on things.

• 45:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh.

• 45:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I'm confused because wasn't, didn't Amy have a baby of someone else? Where's that dude? And how's he feel about Dave and Amy moving it together?

• 45:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Obviously, he's not in the picture. But either way, this must have enraged.

• 46:03Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, Liz is going to be pissed.

• 46:05Derrick Levasseur?

  This is the exact opposite of what she's been trying to do. Yeah.

• 46:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, now, because now Dave and Amy are bonding on the same thing.

• 46:15Derrick Levasseur?

  They're united by this common cause.

• 46:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Which is what Liz and Dave had been united on, but it was a fake orchestrated common cause, whereas this is an actual common cause.

• 46:24Derrick Levasseur?

  Right, right.

• 46:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Something that Liz could never genuinely replicate. So detectives were glad that Dave moved in with Amy because they believed it would drive Liz mad and potentially push her to incriminate herself even further, kind of escalate, right?

• 46:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep.

• 46:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  And of course, as we all suspected and knew, that plan did work. Not long after, Liz called Doty again to complain that Amy still had not been arrested. And Detective Doty apologized, but told her he needed more detailed information if he was going to build a case. He explained the emails simply did not contain enough specifics.

• 46:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Man.

• 46:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Liz was like, say no more.

• 47:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Say less. I got you, Doty, coming your way.

• 47:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's like, you need more specifics? All right, hold on a second. And then, no, Liz actually was like, okay, I'm gonna send you more proof. But instead of forwarding more emails, she went directly to Doty's office and offered him access to her Google account, explaining it was just far too much trouble to keep forwarding Amy's messages. Liz handed over the password and detectives immediately began monitoring the account.

• 47:27Derrick Levasseur?

  What an idiot, man. Wow. Remember that old saying, like, if they were smart, we wouldn't catch them? She's the poster child for that.

• 47:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  She's like, do you want to set up surveillance cameras inside my house so you can watch me all the time?

• 47:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, she really didn't have a lot of high hopes or respect for this police department. She just think they weren't doing anything.

• 47:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think she had a high opinion of her own intelligence. It was unwarranted. Yeah. So, within hours, of course, within hours of her providing all of this information so the police can be in her account in real time, more confessions from Amy started appearing. One email described driving around with Carrie in Carrie's own vehicle before stabbing her multiple times in the stomach.

• 48:10Derrick Levasseur?

  There you go.

• 48:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm. The email also claimed that Amy cleaned Carrie's vehicle afterward. There were additional details included that were incredibly specific, enough that detectives knew the killer was revealing pieces of the truth. The writer accurately described the inside of Carrie's home and referenced a yin yang tattoo on Carrie's left hip to prove that she wasn't, quote, "lying about offing that crazy bitch," end quote. This statement was notable because that tattoo had never been made public before. Guilt knowledge.

• 48:42Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this is absolutely brilliant. I mean, let's really recap what we're talking about here. They are getting the suspect to write a written confession.

• 48:53Derrick Levasseur?

  About everything they did without the person knowing it. They didn't even have to Mirandize her because in her mind, she's Amy. So they're able to get this guilt knowledge confession, which after the fact, they will prove to the court that in reality, it was Liz writing these emails and that's who they should be going after. So it's, it's really brilliant work. And I have to say, we've been doing this for almost five years. I've never heard of this approach before. This is completely innovative. Obviously, it's a rare circumstance to have a suspect this dumb and, and to think that this is going to work. But this is why I love Crime Weekly, because here I am, still being surprised by criminals and surprised

• 49:33Derrick Levasseur?

  by the tactics being implemented by law enforcement. But it's, it's really, really great work.

• 49:39Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And I mean, yeah, you have to assume that I, I really have to wonder if like Liz was mentally ill to the point where she was fractured. And when she was impersonating these people, she actually believed that she was these people?

• 49:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't doubt it. I don't doubt it. There's no way a rational person wouldn't know that this is bad.

• 50:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  It reminds me of that movie Split, remember?

• 50:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 50:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Where like he would become someone else, but then not remember what he did when he was that someone else?

• 50:09Derrick Levasseur?

  I wouldn't be surprised if there were some underlying conditions that she would be diagnosed with later. But I do want to go back to the actual confession itself. It confirms what we were speculating about earlier, right? That more than likely Liz confronted Carrie as she left Dave's apartment. They got into the truck, probably at knife point, drove around, allegedly went to Carrie's house.

• 50:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So that's what I wanted to pull back to. She, she described the inside of Carrie's house. So now I'm wondering, well, did she bring her to her house? How would Liz know that no one was home at Carrie's house? Well, I guess her son Max would be at school.

• 50:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 50:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  And Carrie's son Max was being cared for by her mother because Carrie was staying with Dave for that project. So was Carrie's house ever checked by the police forensically? And at this point, Carrie's been gone for so long, that house probably is no longer even viable.

• 51:04Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, if somebody else has been living there, it's bad. However, you could still go back after the fact and find evidence of a cleanup. It would be harder to attach it to Liz and the crime itself, but hypothetically, if there's a carpet in Carrie's apartment and we were to learn that she was stabbed and allowed to bleed out on that carpet, even though it was cleaned, we all know at this point, you could still forensically put that under some type of alternate light source and be able to see whether it's through luminol or some other scientific process, you would be able to see what occurred in that location. And so, yeah, is it Carrie's apartment? Is it, is it Liz's house? It has to be one of the two. And I would think in hindsight, they could go back and process that crime scene.

• 51:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  So here's what I'm thinking. I think that where Carrie was staying was a rental and obviously when she's gone and not paying rent, they're gonna, they're gonna rent it to someone else, right? Now, do you have to get those people's permission to go in there? Or the landlord's permission to go in there? Or can you get a warrant either way?

• 52:04Derrick Levasseur?

  You could, well, you could definitely get a warrant, right? You could articulate that that, that particular apartment was used in a crime and you could definitely do it. It would cause some issues because the tenants that currently live there do have an expectation of privacy. So you could go there and ask for verbal consent and more than likely, they would give it to you. But if for some reason they said no, then yeah, you could still articulate any search warrant to a judge that you needed access to that apartment because it contained evidence that could be helpful to a homicide investigation.

• 52:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Okay. So either way, they can get in there. But it's just interesting that you would take her to her place to do that. But I suppose, but, but it also sounded like she said she was stabbing her in the car.

• 52:49Derrick Levasseur?

  I don't think she was stabbing her in the car. She's

• 52:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Driving around in the vehicle before stabbing her multiple times in the stomach. Yeah.

• 52:55Derrick Levasseur?

  I think it was at a different location where she stabbed her. I don't think it would be in the car. If it were in the car, they would have found something in one of the crevices of that vehicle or in the carpet to suggest that Carrie had bled out in the vehicle. I think it was at either her apartment or Liz's place.

• 53:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I think we can safely say not at Dave's apartment.

• 53:13Derrick Levasseur?

  Not at Dave's apartment, but I also don't know what was being done in the early stages of this investigation before Doty and Avis took it over. Not much. So, nothing was being processed.

• 53:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. I don't even think they went into Dave's apartment and processed it.

• 53:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's the problem.

• 53:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because I don't even think that they figured out who Dave was until months and months after Carrie had been missing. Because Carrie's mom didn't know who Dave was.

• 53:36Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 53:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  She just knew her daughter was with someone she had met and had been dating.

• 53:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 53:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  They didn't really know each other. She didn't know his last name, remember? Alright, so, after receiving this email, Detective searched Carrie's Explorer for a third time, hoping to find something. And this time, Doty looked at the vehicle himself. And when he removed the cloth seat covers, he found a large reddish stain soaked into the foam of the passenger seat. This is kinda pissing me off. You found this on your third look? Does Doty and Avis have to do everything here?

• 54:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 54:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Your third look? So they processed the Explorer the first time and they don't think it's like connected to a murder, so they just look for fingerprints? Okay, understandable, you missed the blood. But then they literally go in a second time to look for blood in the Explorer. You didn't remove the seat covers?

• 54:21Derrick Levasseur?

  I got no excuse.

• 54:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  What are we talking about here? The hell's going on in Omaha? Just, and then, and of course Detective Doty has to come in. And really, I keep calling them like the true detectives, but they remind me of the first season of True Detective, which is hands down the best with Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson. Where it's like, all the other police force, they're just like, whatever, let this weird cult take all the kids, you know? We can't do anything about it. And Matthew McConaughey and Woody Harrelson are like, we're gonna actually do real police work. But they're just doing like what they should be doing and following the lead they should be following.

• 54:54Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm just surprised that they didn't even like spray the car down with like LCV, like something to basically enhance any type of blood that could have been there. Like with the LCV, we're talking about the chemical agent that would react with blood and cause like a bluish purplish stain. You would expect them to spray down that whole car with LCV to see if there's anything.

• 55:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, because if there's blood, so what they're saying, they're not like seat covers that you put on yourself, it's the actual seat cover that comes standard with the car.

• 55:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes.

• 55:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  They pulled that seat cover up in the foam underneath. That's where they found the blood. But there must have been a good amount of blood on that seat cover for it to have soaked into the foam underneath. So damn, Liz did a great cleaning job. So maybe she should have started a cleaning company, honestly, at this point.

• 55:39Derrick Levasseur?

  That's where LCV would have been pretty good in this case. I think where sometimes with luminol, it can react with cleaning agents to give a false positive. But with with LCV, you can spray it and in the crevices, let's just say the pattern that's on that seat cover. If they can't get into that little crevice, what you're going to see after the fact is this clean seat cover. But this purplish blue color in all of the seams.

• 56:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  The surface, yeah.

• 56:02Derrick Levasseur?

  It would all just any blood that they weren't able to get out, it's all going to react with it, even if it's a microscopic amount. So yeah, that that was a missed opportunity there for sure.

• 56:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, get this, because we're talking about where did the crime happen? Where did the stabbing happen? Well, now it looks like it might have happened in Carrie's Explorer because there was.

• 56:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you kind of suggested that, yeah.

• 56:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  There was enough blood in the foam of the passenger seat to suggest a violent crime had occurred, just like the emails described. But this is the passenger seat. So what's going on? Was Liz driving when she stabbed Carrie? So now I have to sort of, you know, review what we're talking about here. So Doty swabbed the stain and sent it off for testing. By that point, he and Davis were convinced that at least parts of the emails were based in truth. It seemed like the murder happened in Omaha, so they contacted the Omaha Police Department. And cold case homicide detective Dave Schneider soon joined the investigation. So now we've got another detective. We've got Doty, Davis and Schneider. The the the triple threat against Liz, hopefully.

• 57:03Derrick Levasseur?

  I like you. I like the names. They work.

• 57:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah, I like, but in True Detective, there's only two that really know what they're doing. So now it's really ruining my whole, my whole like concept in my head. But anyways, we're going to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

• 57:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  I feel like people underestimate how much bad sleep affects literally everything. And I don't anymore, especially now that I'm older, because you can really tell.

• 57:27Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I mean, when you sleep badly, your entire day feels harder.

• 57:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  Exactly, exactly. You're tired, sore. For the longest time, I kind of thought like this was just normal as you got older, part of not being this young and spry child anymore. But then I switched to Helix a long time ago, actually. And honestly, it changed a lot more than I expected. A simple thing like a mattress to change.

• 57:53Derrick Levasseur?

  We both have the Midnight Luxe. We've had them for years. Absolutely love them. Sleep better. I don't feel like I was in a car accident the night before. And as I get older, unfortunately, I really rely on a good night's rest.

• 58:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. And I mean, for me, once again, it was the constant waking up, whether I was overheated or just because I was tossing and turning, trying to find a comfortable position. And now the difference is I'm not waking up four or five times a night because I'm not tossing and turning. And like you said, we have the Midnight Luxe. We love it. But Helix has over 20 mattress models, because everyone sleeps differently, whether you sleep on your side, your stomach, your back. There's something designed for the way you sleep.

• 58:33Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right.

• 58:34Stephanie Harlowe?

  And they're going to give you this little quiz, which is really quick, really easy, because it's just asking you those simple things like, are you a side sleeper? Are you a back sleeper? Do you like a firmer mattress? Do you like a softer mattress? So they're really going to suggest the model to you that's tailored best to the way you sleep.

• 58:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. And by the way, this time of year, especially with summer coming, the cooler option upgrade is an amazing thing to do. If you're someone who sleeps warm, this is definitely for you.

• 58:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  And like I said, they make the whole process super easy. That quiz, it takes a few minutes. Then you get free shipping right to your door. Super easy to set up on your own, plus a 120 night sleep trial and a limited lifetime warranty on all their models. So there's really no pressure to sort of buy it. And then you're like, oh, I'm stuck with this. So I don't really want to make that purchase because I'll be stuck with it. No, you have 120 nights to sleep on it.

• 59:24Derrick Levasseur?

  So if you're looking to upgrade your sleep, go to helixsleep.com/crimeweekly for 27% off site wide. Again, that's helixsleep.com/crimeweekly for 27% off site wide.

• 59:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  So then on February 21st, less than two weeks after Schneider joined up with Doty and Avis, Amy and Dave were at home when a rock suddenly came crashing through the dining room window. Now, the hidden GPS tracker on Liz's vehicle placed her at the scene and she was arrested for that offense. Thank God, finally. And she quickly pleaded guilty, she paid a fine, and was released. But did anybody ask her, like, "Why are you harassing and stalking the woman that shot you?" Mm-hmm. Yeah. Even so, detectives knew things were escalating and that Amy and Dave were in real danger, so they moved quickly to secure multiple search warrants, one for Liz's new home in Persia and another for Todd Butterbough's house. Todd was also placed on administrative leave.

• 1:00:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, he and Liz had already broken up and no one believed he was involved, but detectives wanted to make sure everything remained completely above board as the investigation moved closer to an arrest. On February 25th, detectives executed the search warrants while Liz was at work. Nothing significant was found at Todd's house, but at Liz's place, investigators recovered multiple LG cell phones, a Sony video camera, a Nikon digital camera, and several memory cards. Everything was seized as evidence and Anthony Cava immediately began going through it. While Liz was still at work, Detective Schneider arrested her, though not for murder, instead she was taken into custody over a traffic infraction. Once at the station, Schneider began questioning Liz about Carrie, and Liz repeated the same story she had told before.

• 1:01:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  She barely knew Carrie, she'd only met her once in passing. Then Schneider turned the conversation around and made it clear how serious things had become. I'd be mad if I was Avis and Doty because I'd want to be the person, you know, to be like, "Ha-ha, Liz, we have you." So Schneider said, quote, "You're in very serious position here. For almost four years now, this woman's son hasn't had his mom, a mom hasn't had her daughter," end quote. Liz immediately cut him off and said, quote, "I know, that's why I'm concerned too, because I'm just like she's missing and for her family," end quote. So Schneider stopped her, cut her off, and he began laying out the evidence detectives had against her. But no matter what he brought up, Liz denied everything. If he mentioned the photo of Carrie's vehicle found on her phone,

• 1:01:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  Liz claimed she'd never seen Carrie's car. If he brought up evidence showing someone using Todd's IP address to impersonate both Carrie and Amy, Liz said it was impossible because she didn't even have internet access. Eventually, Liz said she was done talking and wanted an attorney. After resolving the unpaid traffic issue, she was released. So the investigation continued with Anthony Cava digging through the electronics recovered from Liz's apartment. On one of the LG phones, he found evidence that it had been used to call Carrie's mom after Carrie disappeared. Then, on one of the memory cards, Cava recovered a deleted video of Carrie taken before she vanished. Around the same time, detectives searched a storage unit where Nancy, Carrie's mom, had moved some of Carrie's belongings.

• 1:02:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  And there, they found owner's manuals for the exact Sony camcorder and Nikon camera recovered from Liz's apartment, along with store receipts showing that Carrie had purchased both items shortly before she disappeared. So when we say a video of Carrie taken before she vanished, we don't mean like in a weird way, as in Liz took the video of Carrie. We mean like Carrie bought these, this video camera and this camera. Like a family video or something. She was taking pictures and videos of herself and her family and stuff. So they're hers. So yes, Liz must have been at her house. So detectives kept digging and turned their attention to Carrie's financial records. They revisited the two debit card purchases made on November 16th after Carrie disappeared,

• 1:03:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  one at Family Dollar and one at Walmart. Now, Family Dollar no longer had records dating back to 2012, but Walmart did. So the purchases included winter clothes, cleaning supplies, and a black and white floral shower curtain. This immediately stood out because when detectives searched Liz's apartment in Persia, they found that exact shower curtain hanging inside her bathroom. So detectives theorized it may have been a trophy for Liz. They believed this because despite moving multiple times, including when she moved in with Todd, Liz had taken the curtain with her every single time. It was something innocuous that she could look at every day and remember what she did to Carrie.

• 1:04:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Sick individual.

• 1:04:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. So, and I wonder what's, what she did with the shower curtain, right? Was the shower curtain used to wrap Carrie's body in? And then you took it and you hung it so that you could, that would really make you remember it? We'll see. So after detectives linked the shower curtain to Liz, the DNA testing on the blood recovered from Carrie's vehicle came back as a match to Carrie. At that point, investigators felt they finally had enough evidence to charge Liz with murder. They still were not entirely sure what happened to Carrie, but detectives strongly suspected she was intercepted at Dave's apartment by Liz. Liz had a key and could have entered while Carrie was in the shower, but they did not rule out other possibilities either.

• 1:04:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Liz had a key. Just let that sink in. Liz had a key to Dave's apartment, but Dave was telling her he didn't want to be serious. And he didn't really see her like that, but she's got a key to his apartment and you know this.

• 1:05:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. So she could have got the drop on her while she was inside the apartment or waited till she left or like you suggested, she could have been sitting in the, in the, in the truck if the truck was unlocked.

• 1:05:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  But you as Dave know that Liz has a key. Okay. And you know that she's showing up when you have this other, and now you know you have this other girl staying at your apartment. And I'm not saying that Dave would have thought, oh, Liz is going to go in and kill Carrie. But you knew she showed up when you had Carrie there, the first date.

• 1:05:30Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  You knew she'd done things like that before. Is that maybe time to get the key back or change the locks?

• 1:05:35Derrick Levasseur?

  And on a personal note, he doesn't want a relationship with Liz, but he's giving her the key to his apartment, which completely contradicts the whole, this isn't going to be serious.

• 1:05:43Stephanie Harlowe?

  Now, I'm not saying that Liz would not have, you know, interpreted things the way she wanted to, regardless of what Dave said or did.

• 1:05:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:05:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  But these are mixed signals.

• 1:05:53Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt.

• 1:05:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  So maybe also Liz confronted Carrie as she was getting into her car. Maybe she pretended to be sick and asked Carrie for a ride home. They just weren't sure of how that all culminated. All they knew for certain was that Liz was responsible. So on December 22nd, 2016, Liz was taken into custody and charged with first degree murder at her. Arraignment, her attorney argued that Carrie was not dead, let alone murdered. He pointed to the fact that no body had been found, there were no murder weapons, and there was no witnesses. Because of that, he argued the charges should be dropped. He also claimed Liz barely knew Carrie and had long since lost touch with Dave. Is that why you just threw a rock through his window?

• 1:06:35Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:37Stephanie Harlowe?

  The attorney said, quote, "She only saw this lady one time, just for a few seconds. There wasn't any argument," end quote. Liz entered a plea of not guilty and her bond was set at five million. So clearly, the judge was like, "Yeah, I think there's something here to this," right?

• 1:06:52Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this lawyer is about to be in for a big surprise.

• 1:06:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I wonder if the lawyer was even like, you know, familiar with the case before they took it on.

• 1:07:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Might have been like a public defender that was assigned it maybe a couple of days before, because when he gets the discovery packet, he's gonna probably change his tune.

• 1:07:08Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he's like, "How do you know Carrie?" And Liz is like, "I only saw her for a few minutes." And he goes, "Judge, she only saw her for a few minutes." He doesn't really know what's going on here. But there was later a second degree arson charge that was added. And during both arraignment, Liz waived her right to a jury trial and instead requested a bench trial. And we just talked about that with Mackenzie Shrilla, right? And it's kind of funny, because this was obviously not planned. But it does almost come to this, like, delusional belief that you are, it's gonna be easier for you to convince one person, AKA a judge, than it is for you to convince like a jury of your peers. But I don't, I don't know if that was going to work out for either Mackenzie or Liz.

• 1:07:51Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I also think there's this delusional optimism that they both display, where they feel like maybe they have the ability to manipulate someone one-on-one.

• 1:08:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, just one person, maybe more people, like, you know you've already done it.

• 1:08:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Do you also think it could be that they kind of understand, even though they lack complete self-awareness, that maybe they know they're unlikable? And they don't want to risk it with a jury of their peers who are gonna be like, "Wow, this person's delusional."

• 1:08:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think that they are good with people one-on-one, because on one-on-one, you can say something, but then you can say it to a different person, who you don't think's gonna talk to that person, and you can say something completely different. And you're like, "The two shall never meet." So I don't really have to keep up with like much, you know? I don't have to really like do it a lot of checks and balances. So you're just sitting in front of one judge, one person that you have to... Thoroughly manipulate and convince that you're a victim here instead of a larger group of people who are going to then go and confer with each other and talk to each other about it. It's just one person and you you feel like you have a better chance with that when you're a manipulative person like Mackenzie or Liz.

• 1:08:59Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I agree. It's definitely this confidence that is not warranted, but they both have it.

• 1:09:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  But listen, Liz's attorney later said, I wanted the case tried before Carrie's body could ever be found. So I wanted this to happen quick.

• 1:09:16Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it's kind of like-

• 1:09:17Derrick Levasseur?

  No body homicide is a lot harder to prove.

• 1:09:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  It's kind of like the attorney maybe was like, I know my client's guilty.

• 1:09:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Yeah. Wouldn't be the first time that a defense attorney knew their client was guilty.

• 1:09:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  For the prosecution, the bench trial actually worked in their favor. I think it often does. And I say that because now they would not have to present this incredibly bizarre case to a jury and hope people could follow it and believe something this unbelievable had really happened. The prosecutor later reflected on the case and said, quote, "This was by far the most difficult case I've ever tried. Most homicides are dark. This one was bizarre to the point where it would take some convincing to make somebody believe that it had actually happened. There's no way that someone would let their dog die in a fire that they started. There's no way that someone would shoot themselves in the femur," end quote. But there is. We have we have discovered that. I found the dog thing hard, too.

• 1:10:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Have you met Liz yet?

• 1:10:10Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Hello to Liz. She calls her own children ugly to make a point.

• 1:10:15Derrick Levasseur?

  No, but it does make sense looking on the surface, right? Like, it's going to be hard to convince an entire jury that this woman would do all these horrible things to herself. But that's looking at it from a rational perspective. And I've said this before, sometimes it's hard to rationalize the irrational. And that would be the case here. So you have to try to take that entire jury and put them in the mind of a person who is clearly not there. And that and that can be difficult.

• 1:10:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes, I agree. Yeah. I mean, it was difficult for us. Right, as we were going through it, we were like, no, would she really? Would she really let her dogs? Maybe that wasn't intentional, maybe she... No, it wasn't intentional. We project our own morality onto others. And that's the hard part when it comes to really understanding like what evil lives in somebody. So, the investigation continued and in February of 2017, Dave found a tablet with an SD memory card that Liz had access to while they were dating. So he turned it over to the police and Anthony Kava started looking into it. And Kava found no active files on the card, but he was able to recover more than 13,000 deleted photos and text messages. Now, the tablet itself did not have texting capabilities,

• 1:11:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  which led Kava to realize the SD card must have been used in another device. And eventually, he matched the card to Liz's cellphone, the same phone police downloaded data from back on January 8th, 2013. So, the files detectives could not access at that time were suddenly available and they included some incredibly damning evidence, which we are going to talk about when we come back from our last break.

• 1:11:57Stephanie Harlowe?

  You know what's weird about habits? Half the time, you don't even realize you're doing them. It's unconscious, it's just become ingrained in you.

• 1:12:03Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's muscle memory.

• 1:12:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm, exactly. Especially with smoking and vaping. It's not just the nicotine at some point. It's the routine, that hand-to-mouth motion, the little pause, having something to reach for when you're stressed or bored even. And honestly, that is the thing that makes it really hard to break.

• 1:12:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, that's why fume is such an interesting idea. When you really think about what it does for you and how it helps break that habit loop.

• 1:12:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, it's a flavored air device designed to help people quit smoking or vaping by interrupting that habit loop. There's no nicotine, no batteries, no vapor. It's just this really... Cool, like weighted, twisty, fidget-friendly device that gives your hands and brain something else to focus on when cravings hit.

• 1:12:43Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and I have it right here. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see it. If you're listening, you might be able to hear it. But real wood, real metal, it's got that weighted design like Stephanie was saying. It's got the magnets, then you got the clicking motion.

• 1:12:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Mm-hmm. Oh, I love that.

• 1:12:56Derrick Levasseur?

  I try not to do it when we're recording, but if you really pay attention, sometimes you'll catch it in my hand. I just, it's something to keep me occupied while I'm listening to Stephanie.

• 1:13:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  And I love that the flavors are really light. It's not like sickeningly sweet or heavy or sticky. They're more like flavored water compared to soda. Crisp mint is the strongest flavor, especially if you're a heavier user, you have been in the past. But raspberry, that's kind of like my go-to. You know, I love the creamsicle one. I talk about that all the time.

• 1:13:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, orange vanilla. That's my personal favorite.

• 1:13:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  But I call it creamsicle because it tastes exactly like a creamsicle.

• 1:13:28Derrick Levasseur?

  It does. It's exactly like a creamsicle.

• 1:13:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  We love fume.

• 1:13:30Derrick Levasseur?

  We do.

• 1:13:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  For so many reasons. Don't just try to quit. Upgrade your habit loop. Reach for fume instead. And fume has already helped over 700,000 people take steps toward better habits. Now it's your turn. Use our code CRIMEWEEKLY to get a free gift with your journey pack. Head to tryfume.com. That's T-R-Y-F-U-M-E dot com and use code CRIMEWEEKLY to claim your free gift today.

• 1:14:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we're back and we're talking about the SD card that Liz left in Dave's tablet. And like, yeah, she deleted the things, but once again, you were living with and dating an IT guy. You probably should have known that there's a possibility those things could be recovered. But like I said, damning evidence. So several of the recorded images appeared to show a blue and gray silver tarp, just like the one mentioned in the emails about what had happened to Carrie. Another photo showed what looked like a flesh-colored object with a yin yang symbol on it. And Kava compared the symbol in the image to a photo of the matching yin yang tattoo Carrie had on her hip, and they appeared highly consistent. So another

• 1:14:46Stephanie Harlowe?

  Image showed a flesh colored object with a Chinese symbol on it and Carrie was known to also have the Chinese symbol for mother tattooed on her left foot. So Kava compared the image to photos of Carrie's tattoo and again, they were consistent. Believing the image may show Carrie's decomposing foot, detectives consulted a forensic pathologist and after reviewing the image, the pathologist agreed. It was a decomposing foot, though from the photo, the pathologist couldn't determine how long the remains had been decomposing. So understand what this means.

• 1:15:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  It doesn't look like, at least if, if Liz did any burning of the body, it doesn't look like it was a complete burn. And Liz put Carrie somewhere that she went back to.

• 1:15:32Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, and took photos. Yeah, it doesn't look like she burned at least her entire body. And if, if there's decomposition, it can happen. It can happen relatively quickly depending on the conditions it's in, but it's not going to happen in a couple hours.

• 1:15:47Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, so either you put her somewhere and then moved her.

• 1:15:51Derrick Levasseur?

  Right.

• 1:15:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Or you put her somewhere and then went back.

• 1:15:54Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, this was after the fact. I have no doubt in my mind, she returned to wherever Carrie was. There's no doubt. She, in a way, kept Carrie as the trophy. She wanted to go back.

• 1:16:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she's taking pictures. So obviously she took a picture of her.

• 1:16:09Derrick Levasseur?

  And memorialize her work. Yeah, this is a really, really sick individual. Obviously, we knew that from the jump, but this isn't just a crime of passion. There's a lot more going on here.

• 1:16:18Stephanie Harlowe?

  So finding these images was a huge win for the prosecution as it would now be easier to prove at trial. That Carrie was killed and that the person who wrote the emails about how the murder occurred, AKA Liz, was to some extent at least. Telling the truth. So yes, it's a no body crime, but still. Photographic evidence of a dead body.

• 1:16:40Derrick Levasseur?

  Yep, a dead body believed to be at minimum the foot of the person you're looking for.

• 1:16:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  So in May of 2017, just a few months after detectives recovered those photos, Liz's bench trial began in Omaha, Nebraska. Over several days, prosecutors argued Liz was a quote, "diabolical and cruel woman obsessed with Dave and unwilling to let him date other women." I would have described her a lot more in harsh terms. Diabolical and cruel is scratching the surface of what Liz is. She's a banana nut sundae with extranauts. Like, she's crazy. So according to the prosecutors, Liz killed Carrie, then spent years pretending to be her while harassing multiple people and committing crimes, including arson, to cover up the murder. Prosecutors also argued that the emails Liz sent while posing as Amy were actually confessions, her own words describing the motive, manner, and mindset behind Carrie's murder.

• 1:17:31Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we talked about this earlier. Literally, a written confession without the need to Mirandize your subject because the subject is pretending to be someone else. It's a loophole. It's a loophole, and it's brilliant.

• 1:17:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes. So the defense argued the prosecution's case was entirely circumstantial and maintained that Liz was innocent. There was no body, no murder weapon, no eyewitnesses. The defense did concede the blood inside Carrie's vehicle belonged to Carrie, but argued no one knew when it got there or how. So they did not dispute that Liz engaged in strange behavior. Instead, they argued none of it proved murder. The defense also stressed that Liz was not on trial for stalking or burglarizing Carrie's home, and beyond that, the defense presented no witnesses and no evidence, and Liz chose to not testify. They relied solely on opening and closing statements centered on the argument that the case was circumstantial, basically saying like, "You don't have enough. Like, you got some stuff, but you don't have enough

• 1:18:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt." They're playing it safe. I think the defense team is playing it a little safe. Now, later, Liz's defense attorney explained why. He admitted he initially believed prosecutors had a weak case because Carrie's body had never been found, but his opinion changed as the trial unfolded.

• 1:18:45Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. You said that. He was gonna realize real fast that... He's in trouble. His client's in trouble.

• 1:18:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he's, he's like, listen, yes, was she stalking? Was she sending crazy messages? Was she pretending to be other people? Sure. But that doesn't mean she's dangerous. When in his head, he's like, that is absolutely what it means. That is absolutely what it means. Like if you brought up a forensic psychiatrist to testify on the mindset of somebody who was able to do all of the things that Liz did, that psychiatrist would say, yes, somebody who does all of these things definitely and absolutely has the potential to escalate to violence and murder. Yes. Liz's defense attorney said, quote, "In my decades of practicing law, it's one of the most powerful presentations of circumstantial evidence that I've ever seen."

• 1:19:31Derrick Levasseur?

  AKA, I got my ass handed to me.

• 1:19:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, he's like, it's circumstantial, but it's overwhelming. So it came as little surprise when the judge ultimately found Liz guilty of first degree murder and second degree arson. At sentencing, the judge said, quote, "Carrie Farver did not voluntarily disappear and drop off the face of the earth. Very sadly, she was murdered." End quote. Now Liz was sentenced to life in prison for first degree murder and 18 to 20 years for arson to run concurrently, like at the same time. Right? Does that concurrently mean at the same time?

• 1:20:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, so consecutive.

• 1:20:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Consecutively is one after the other.

• 1:20:11Derrick Levasseur?

  So consecutive would be on top of each other. So if you got seven and seven, you'd get 14 years. Concurrent means they're running at the same time. So when you start your prison sentence, they're running simultaneously.

• 1:20:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  So it's like you got life in prison and then you got 18 to 20 years for the arson, but since you can't really add 18 to 20 years onto a life sentence, yeah.

• 1:20:27Derrick Levasseur?

  You'll be in prison and your 20 year sentence on the arson will run out.

• 1:20:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  I don't know if there was like a chance that she would be able to get out, but basically.

• 1:20:36Derrick Levasseur?

  No, because even though the arson runs out, you're still in there for murder. Because hence it's running concurrent.

• 1:20:41Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, but you can appeal and which she did, right? Liz later appealed the conviction, once again arguing there was not enough evidence to find her guilty. The conviction was upheld. The court found there was more than enough evidence. Now, how do you think that a... How do you think Liz is feeling today about this? You think Liz has come out and been like, I'm taking accountability?

• 1:21:01Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely not.

• 1:21:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  No, no. To this day, Liz maintains her innocence and claims Carrie's real killer is still out there. Author Leslie Rule later said that Liz sent her letters from prison, including one that said, quote, "I will not stop fighting until I am set free and they find the right person." End quote.

• 1:21:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Hmm. Thanks, Liz. We appreciate it.

• 1:21:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Ugh, Liz.

• 1:21:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Don't use Todd's computer.

• 1:21:23Stephanie Harlowe?

  Liz is something else because you'd think she'd want credit at this point. She's like, all right, I'm in life, I'm in prison for life. I kind of want people like, it's going to be better for me if I somehow find a way to, to, you know, capitalize this, like show how many puppet strings I was pulling and how long, I mean, two years that I had convinced Dave that this woman was stalking him and how I had like basically manufactured a bond and a relationship with him based on this. But once again, I wonder if there's some mental health issue here where she literally does something like she's fractured herself so that one part of her can do something and the other part of her can pretend to still be this good person.

• 1:22:05Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, I would love to see a forensic psychiatrist or two or three analyze her and talk to her. I would love for that to happen. I, I vote for this to happen. So, we don't want to end this series on Liz, though.

• 1:22:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Absolutely not.

• 1:22:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  We want to bring it back to our true victim, Carrie Farver. And to do that, I want to read part of the prosecutor's closing argument. She said, quote, "For years, the defendant portrayed Carrie as a conniving, jealous, obsessed stalker. But all along, it was her. She was all of those things." End quote. Right? So Liz is portraying herself and trying to make it seem like Carrie, but what we know from Carrie, Carrie was nothing like that. Right? Carrie was so chill, so laid back, so focused on herself and her child and her job and what, and the life that she wanted to build and her family and this bond that she had and this very special, rich life that she had, even though things hadn't always gone the way she'd expected.

• 1:23:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  This was nothing like Carrie. You know, if Carrie and Dave had been dating and then one day Dave got weird and was like, oh, I don't want a relationship. Carrie would have been like, peace. I value myself. I know what I'm worth. I know I'm smart. I know I'm beautiful. I know I'm an awesome caregiver to my son and I would be a great partner to any man. If you don't want that, then have fun with Liz, right? With women like Liz. So Carrie would never have done this. And it was Liz the whole time. So then the prosecutor showed a photo of Carrie and then the prosecutor said, quote, "This is the real Carrie Farver. She was a bright, beautiful, hardworking mother, sister, daughter, friend, coworker, and her life was violently cut short

• 1:23:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  by this defendant's twisted, obsessive, reprehensible acts of violence. Carrie deserves justice and so does Carrie's family." End quote. Once again, probably I would be describing Liz in a very different way. I consider this to be just evil. This is like demonic almost. Like what took you over? This is beyond obsessive. This is just, there's something really, she needs to be studied. She needs to be studied.

• 1:24:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I, I, I leave this series, it was a great series, by the way, you did an incredible job with it. My big takeaway is that, on one hand, a lot of the series was about how crazy Liz was. Rightfully so. This is a case I've, I've never come across. Something like this, this was deep and then-

• 1:24:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  I think it's important to show that though. So if people see this kind of behavior in someone, they can kind of not look at it as innocent.

• 1:24:35Derrick Levasseur?

  But I also like how you highlighted how investigators solved it. There was a lot of different tactics used. There were some problems in the beginning that weren't the fault of the investigators that we talked about later. And, and they got it right. But my big, big takeaway is Carrie's family. Her mom, her son Max, and the fact that even though we're sitting here, what, 14 years later, right? 14 years later, 14 plus years later, and we still don't have Carrie. She still hasn't been reunited with her family. She hasn't been given a proper burial or cremation, whatever the family believes in, right? There's still that unknown. Where is she? And there is a person who has the ability to fix that. And unfortunately, it's the person

• 1:25:17Derrick Levasseur?

  you've talked about this whole series. I truly hope, and I don't, I don't have a lot of hope this is gonna happen, but-

• 1:25:26Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm wishful that at some point Liz will come forward and say, yeah, you know what? I'm gonna show you exactly what I did for how long and how I got away with it like I did for so long and tells everyone where Carrie currently is.

• 1:25:42Stephanie Harlowe?

  I agree, yeah.

• 1:25:43Derrick Levasseur?

  They can still go back there, they can still recover whatever remains are there and reunite her with her family so that Max and the rest of her family know that she's now with them and they can remember her in that way, not thinking that she's still out there somewhere waiting to be found.

• 1:26:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I mean, that is weird. Like, it's like Liz was so dumb in some ways, but also so good at covering her tracks in other ways.

• 1:26:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  The body's never found, you know? What happened? Like, where did it take place? They were never really able to, because she wouldn't admit to it, they were never really able to state all of that. There's still so much about this. There's so much about this case we know, almost like too much at some point, and then there's still so much that we don't know, and that's very unsettling. And maybe that's why she refuses to come forward and say what happened, because it still gives her this thrill of power that she's withholding Carrie from the people that love her.

• 1:26:45Derrick Levasseur?

  You know, I gotta go back and I apologize, but the photos that were taken of Carrie's decomposing foot, did you say that was on an SD card or was that a Polaroid?

• 1:26:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  That was an SD card found in a tablet of Dave's that Liz had used and had access to.

• 1:27:03Derrick Levasseur?

  I'm just surprised that there wasn't a way to extract the metadata from that photo to determine when it was taken. And the reason to me that would be so important was then you could compare it to the cell phone coordinates of Liz's phone, potentially, if she revisited that location. You could go back, you could have subpoenaed her records and determined what.

• 1:27:26Stephanie Harlowe?

  Maybe we should call up this police department and give them some tips.

• 1:27:28Derrick Levasseur?

  I mean, they could have triangulated at least the area where she, it can't be that far, right? It has to be in close proximity, but if you see her out of place in that. Timeframe, that's an area you need to focus on. Now, there's a real strong possibility at some point, she did go back there and either burn her body or dispose of it in some capacity so that it wouldn't be found. And maybe that's why she's not telling us. But there's a, there's still a chance that we could find her, or at least something to suggest that she was there and, and give that back to her family. That's where my brain is right now. That's the only thread that needs to be pulled a little harder to try to, to try to bring Carrie home. And maybe there's a chance to do it. Maybe someone listening, watching this episode who's involved in the case says, yeah.

• 1:28:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  We have so many people who do this stuff just like for hobbies that are so good at it, you know, extracting metadata. Like I've seen it in true crime cases all the time.

• 1:28:22Derrick Levasseur?

  There's gotta be a way.

• 1:28:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  That somebody could donate their time or help Carrie's family out.

• 1:28:27Derrick Levasseur?

  They have people, they have people can do it. I have people who can do it. I mean, we can definitely do that. And the final angle would be just trying to go to Liz and appeal to something in her, to have her remove those self-serving perspectives that she basically operates on a daily basis with and say, hey, for one minute, think about Max, think about Carrie's mom, think about everyone who's still wondering where she is. You can, you can end that suffering right now. I don't know. I don't, I don't think it would work, but wishful thinking. Overall, it was a really good story. I'm glad you took the time to go over everything. You proved me wrong. I, I didn't see how this was going to be for episodes, but now I'm almost thinking there

• 1:29:10Derrick Levasseur?

  could be a fifth part if you really wanted to. This trial must have been something to you see.

• 1:29:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, yeah. And I mean, it's a bench trial. So it's not even like they're putting out all this evidence, really. It's just, yeah, I, I mean, I would be curious as to what's happened since and if Carrie's family has like enlisted the help of private detectives or other people to track down her body. I'm sure they have. And I feel like there would be. Ways to do it, or yeah, like you said, the metadata would be the obvious first place to start.

• 1:29:40Derrick Levasseur?

  The metadata in the photo compared to the locations of her phone at those times. There's gotta be a way. There's gotta be a way to say, hey, you know what? She visited this like wooded area on multiple occasions around this date and time that that photo was taken.

• 1:29:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, doesn't metadata have geographical like coordinates?

• 1:29:56Derrick Levasseur?

  Some of it does, but we're talking 2012. It may not have a longitude and longitude. But overall, you're still gonna have a date and time that the photo was taken, as long as the iPad was set up, and I'm assuming it was, or this tablet, maybe not an iPad.

• 1:30:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, there was a, so it was a tablet that she took the SD card out of her phone and put it in the tablet. So it looks like she downloaded all that stuff off her phone onto the SD card and then put it in the tablet, which at that point, because she's giving her phone to the police. So at that point, you're giving your phone to the police, so you don't want them to see the pictures of Carrie's decomposing body. So you put them on an SD card instead of just erasing them. And that shows you, she wanted these things. And then she puts them in a tablet of Dave's that she's using so she can look at them again. And you're gonna tell me this is just reprehensible and like obsessive? No, this woman is crazy. She's evil.

• 1:30:44Derrick Levasseur?

  And because it was on a phone, it's definitely the metadata is absolutely gonna contain date and time. And maybe, like you said, the coordinates. But I would imagine, based on the thorough job that Doty and Avis did, if that were the case, they would have found her. I mean, I have to believe that there was something more to the story. We don't know. However, it's not a problem to mention it. So we'll throw it out there. Maybe something resonates with someone, or they think of a different angle to go here. But overall, appreciate you covering the case. We appreciate you guys being here with us for this entire series. If you like what we're doing over here, and you haven't already, please like, comment, subscribe if you're watching on YouTube. Head on over to Apple Podcasts or Spotify, leave a review. We really appreciate that as well.

• 1:31:29Derrick Levasseur?

  It helps people see what we're doing over here. It gives us more exposure to. Someone who hasn't discovered us yet. And also, if you're already subscribed, double check it because we've been getting a lot of comments again that people are like, "Hey, I had to go hunting for your episodes because they weren't popping up." So take a second, do that. We would greatly appreciate it. We're going to be back next week with a new series. Until then, everyone stay safe out there. We'll see you soon.

• 1:31:55Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye. Thank you.