S3 Ep145: Our Interview With Elizabeth Smart

In June of 2002, a 14-year-old girl was taken from her bedroom in the middle of the night, from a quiet home in one of the safest neighborhoods in one of the safest cities in America. Her name was Elizabeth Smart. This case has endured for more than two decades, not only because of what happened to Elizabeth, but because of how it happened. It forces us to confront uncomfortable questions about trust, faith, and what happens when deeply held beliefs collide with someone willing to exploit them. Elizabeth wasn't held for hours or days. She was a prisoner for nine months, subjected to repeated trauma and torture that would have broken most adults. But Elizabeth's story is not just about what happened to her. It's also about survival and strength. It's about a young girl who would later turn the unimaginable into advocacy and support for victims of kidnapping and sexual violence. Enter to win TWO badges to CrimeCon 2026 in Las Vegas here: CrimeCon 2026 Badge GiveawayTry our coffee! - www. CriminalCoffeeCo.comBecome a Patreon member -- > ｿ https://www.patreon.com/CrimeWeeklyShop for your Crime Weekly gear here --> ｿ https://crimeweeklypodcast.com/shopYoutube: https://www.youtube.com/c/CrimeWeeklyPodcastWebsite: CrimeWeeklyPodcast.comInstagram: @CrimeWeeklyPodTwitter: @CrimeWeeklyPodFacebook: @CrimeWeeklyPodADS:1. https://www. Rula.com/CrimeWeekly - Connect with high quality therapists TODAY with Rula!2. https://www. TryFUM.com - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY for a FREE gift with your Journey Pack!3. https://www. FactorMeals.com/CrimeWeekly50Off - Use code CRIMEWEEKLY50OFF for 50% off your first box and FREE breakfast for a year!

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome back to Crime Weekly. I'm Stephanie Harlow.

• 0:15Derrick Levasseur?

  And I'm Derrick Levasseur.

• 0:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  And today, as you see, we have Elizabeth Smart with us, as promised.

• 0:20Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, been over 10 hours. We were just talking before we hit record, over 10 hours of actual Crime Weekly, not including all the research that Stephanie did. So I feel like anybody who's followed this series up to this point is very familiar with Elizabeth's story, but not necessarily her life or where she is now. And I know for some of you, if you're not following Elizabeth, she's doing some great things out there. She's making a big difference. And we were talking about some, uh, some other things she's got going on. Septic tanks, et cetera. We won't go into it, the boring stuff. But I was saying in the, the series, Elizabeth, I got the chance to know you a little bit on America's Most Wanted. And I almost feel guilty because we had one dinner together where we talked a little bit. And you mentioned in passing about some of your experiences and what you went through.

• 1:05Derrick Levasseur?

  But what I, what I love about you is you don't sit there and you're just not, it's not about me, me, me. You were always talking about how you're helping others, you and Callahan, a lot when we went to dinner. And I have so much respect and admiration for you because now knowing the depths of what you went through, and candidly, I personally think you, you saved your family's lives. I really do. But based on your decisions and your actions that night, I think that's the reason you're all still here. Just my personal opinion. So knowing how young you are, were at the time, 14. I have a daughter that's 13. And knowing that you had the wherewithal at that time to make those decisions under those stressful circumstances, I just gained even more respect for you than I already had. So I appreciate you coming on and talking to us for a little bit.

• 1:49Speaker 02

  Absolutely. Glad to, glad to come on.

• 1:51Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we can sort of start by, if you want, Derek, we can kind of talk about, first of all, Elizabeth has written, you know, she's done, she's done a million things. And she's also written three books. I have read two of them at this point. Your most recent book is called Detours, correct?

• 2:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:11Derrick Levasseur?

  It came out in December, right? December? Okay, cool.

• 2:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  This is more of a book about how you kind of... Have moved through things in your life. So whereas your book from 2013, My Story, which I used very heavily when I was researching this case, that was more about what happened to you and things like that. Detours is more about, you know, kind of speaking to people who have gone through similar trauma or, you know, multitudes of trauma and how to sort of move through that and, and recover and live a life that's full, correct?

• 2:44Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, I mean, it's not even what people have gone through doesn't even have to even be remotely similar to what I've experienced. It could be hopefully anything and you'd be like, okay, it's okay to feel sad. Like it's okay to like grieve the life I had imagined myself that it for myself that is no more. It's kind of trying to find like those kind of high level turning points that I found in my own healing journey.

• 3:07Stephanie Harlowe?

  I found this book to be incredibly, I guess, uplifting. I don't want to say it in such a basic way because there's so much to it, but there was a lot of, we, we asked people, did you have any questions for Elizabeth? And there was a lot of people who have been through things that were similar to what you had been through and, you know, obviously other, other things in their lives and they, and a lot of them had questions for you as in, you know, what kinds of things did you do as you moved through life? If you dealt with recurring memories or unresolved things to sort of feel better and to deal with really low days or periods of depression, periods of sadness. And I want you to answer that in, in, in your own way, but I think that a lot of those people should check out that

• 3:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  book because it's going to be so very comprehensive to help you do that. And Elizabeth can answer in her way now. I'll, I'll let her do that, obviously, but this book will be something you can return to time and time again, because what I've found when you're, when you're moving through trauma is you'll, you'll deal with something and then six months down the road or two years down the road, you'll deal with something else that you had never previously dealt with. And so you can return to that book then to figure out how you can sort of move through this, this different season of. Of your, your trauma journey and your healing journey. But Elizabeth, as far as, as your response to this, if you can answer for the people

• 4:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  listening now, what, what do you do when, when you, or what have you done when you've gone through periods of sadness or low days or periods of depression and you've had to sort of work through that?

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, thank you so much for your kind words. I certainly hope that my most recent book is, is like a friend, is just like a companion that you can turn to if you need help or suggestions. But putting that aside, I mean, I remember very vividly, just quickly after I was rescued, having the thought enter my mind that if I died tomorrow, then the only thing people would talk about at my funeral would be my abduction, would be my kidnapping. And I remember just sitting there thinking, by the time I die, like whenever that day comes, I don't want my kidnapping mentioned at all.

• 5:30Speaker 02

  Like, I don't want that to be the only thing that people remember about me, or like that's what they associate me with. And so from like, almost day one of being rescued, I, not only did I have a huge fear of missing out on things, but I just knew that I wanted my life to mean so much more than just my kidnapping. So I feel like I just have, I don't want to say just like filled my life up with like nothingness, but I have tried to live life to the fullest. Like, I don't want to look back and have regrets. I mean, I dyed my hair red once because I was like, I wonder what I'd look at as a redhead. And I'd always been too scared to do it.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  And then I remember thinking, what if I get to 80 one day and I'm looking back on my life? What a stupid regret to not, to be like, oh, I wish I knew what I looked like with red hair. So I did it.

• 6:24Stephanie Harlowe?

  And so how did you look?

• 6:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, what's the verdict?

• 6:27Speaker 02

  Well, I'm blonde again. I'm blonde again, so I'm not gonna tell you all you need to know. I mean, no, look, I liked it. It was a fun change. Every morning when I got up and like walked to the mirror, I was like, oh my gosh, who is that person?

• 6:40Stephanie Harlowe?

  Who is she?

• 6:42Speaker 02

  That's, that's not me. Um, but again, like I said, I'm blonde again. Glad I did it. But I do think there is some truth that time has the power to heal, or at least lessen pain to a degree. Um, so that, and I say all this because now when I'm like on my own or like in my quiet time and I start reflecting back on my life, my brain doesn't just go immediately to when I was kidnapped. Like, yes, that might be, you know, one of the single biggest experiences of my life, but that's not all of my life.

• 7:21Speaker 02

  And I'm like, for me, it's been helpful to be able to experience more things so that I do have more things to like, look back on and be like, I did that. I'm so proud of myself for doing that. And actually, it's to a point where, um, I actually think I talk about this, um, in, in my most recent book where I've ran, I've run a few marathons. And usually around mile 18, I'm like, I hate this. Why am I doing this to myself? I'm actually paying to be in pain, but to get like a banana and a, a little medal that everyone gets at the end. Like, why am I doing this to myself? This is, this is sheer idiocy. But then usually that's when like my brain will kick in and be like, Elizabeth,

• 8:07Speaker 02

  like you're stronger than this. You're better than this. You survived nine months of being kidnapped. You can survive the last eight miles, six miles, whatever it is, like you can finish. You can walk it, but you can finish. Stop being, you've done much harder things, like, get back up and keep going. And so for me, it's almost like something that was so terrible once, now reminds me of how capable I am now, or how strong I am now. And have there been difficult times? Absolutely. 100%. I mean, like,

• 8:42Speaker 02

  Everything leading up to the trial, which, you know, was eight years from the time that I was rescued? Like, there was so much frustration involved in that. There were times I was like, I don't want to talk to anybody else. I've already talked to people. You're asking me the same questions that everyone asked. Why is this even a question? Like, everyone knows that these two people did it. How can they possibly, like, how can there be a world where there's a statute of limitations on, where they could possibly walk free? How could that possibly happen? So there's been, yeah, there's, there's been hard times.

• 9:22Speaker 02

  And I think another point that I bring up in my book is talking about pursuing connection fearlessly. I think for me, that's probably been one of the biggest influencing factors in my healing is just finding people who I know will show up for me day or night. People that I can trust, people that I can talk to, and maybe I've talked to them about the same thing 20,000 times, but they'll still be there for the 20,000th and first time to listen to me. And they're not just like, oh, Elizabeth, just get over it. Having those people in my life has been huge because then when I do feel sad, I can call them up and I can just be like, I don't know why, but this is,

• 10:08Speaker 02

  like, I'm just really struggling today and I don't think this is fair. And I don't want to be unhappy or I don't want to be here. But having, like, having that safety net in my life has made a huge difference for me.

• 10:21Stephanie Harlowe?

  Do you think that was one of the hardest parts? Like, when this happened to you, you were 14. So afterwards, if you didn't already trust somebody and know that they were a good person, was it hard for you afterwards to move forward and open yourself up to trust or get to know anyone else new?

• 10:40Speaker 02

  I would say I was a lot more cautious after. And I, I mean, frankly, I was nervous to be around men by myself.

• 10:50Derrick Levasseur?

  Understandable.

• 10:52Speaker 02

  I mean, I just, yeah, I just, I wasn't comfortable about with it. And, you know, people have asked me so many times over the years, like, oh, how are you married? Like, after everything that you've experienced, how are you okay being married? And you've got kids. Like, how are you okay with that? And I'm like, how am I okay having sex after being raped? Is that what you're asking?

• 11:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Uh huh.

• 11:13Speaker 02

  Yes, that's what they're asking. To answer that question, but even bigger and more broadly, like, you know, when I was rescued, I was fifteen, I was still a kid. I wasn't coming home to an arranged marriage. I wasn't forced to be with someone who is older than my dad. I um was allowed as much as possible to go back and be a kid, to go back and like, yes, life was different. Life never returned to the way it was, but I was allowed to some degree to reclaim who I had once been. And I feel like that gave me like the time that I needed to grow so that by the time I was ready to like date and have boyfriends,

• 11:58Speaker 02

  it was very different than being kidnapped. And by the time I got married, I mean, you know, here this young man was getting down on his knees, asking me to marry him. Whereas when I was kidnapped, with all your many hours of research, you know, uh, nobody got down on their knees to ask me to marry them. I was pulled and forced. So completely different experiences.

• 12:27Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I think you said earlier to mourn the life that you thought you would have. So leaving that situation, obviously, you're not going to want this life you thought you would have of romance and having somebody get down on their knee and propose to you and love you and support you and start a family with them. You're not going to let Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzey steal that from you when they've already taken so much. You're going to try to eventually open yourself up to having that happen because that's what you, you know, that's, I think, what every, everybody wants.

• 12:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. You know, that's what you deserve. And you have a beautiful family. Obviously, I follow you along on Instagram and I can see the support system around you. And to what you said earlier, as far as not letting the kidnapping define you, you've done that, you've accomplished it. I mean, for me, one of the defining moments when we were covering your case. Just that made me proud to be your friend was seeing you up there in your first press conference after the trial and you take that time to highlight another case. I mean, if that doesn't right there define you, I don't know what will. I mean, that's such a powerful statement when it when it's about you. It's supposed to be about you and your your vindication, your justice, and yet you decided to highlight someone else's tragedy

• 13:39Derrick Levasseur?

  that was ongoing. So you've done it and you're continuing to do it. And I love that you were able to take something that's so horrific and find a way to motivate you because people have choices in life, right? We all go through tough times and you can either let it break you or make you. And you can take that and say, hey, I was able to do this. I can do anything. And I think that's what the message is when I hear your story is here's a young girl who went through basically the worst thing you can go through. And she's using it even now, as you're telling us in marathons to motivate yourself to go that extra mile. And I think whether you've been through something you've been through, or just something that was tough for you, that's something that we can all learn from when we're trying to push ourselves to go outside our comfort zone. So you're definitely accomplishing

• 14:23Derrick Levasseur?

  your mission as far as being more than your story from many years ago.

• 14:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  And a lot of people did have that question, how do you handle being a mother? How do you handle parenthood? And how how has that affected the way that you parent just for, you know, your outward behavior with your own children and your internal kind of conversation with yourself?

• 14:49Speaker 02

  I think it's made me a much more aware parent, just aware of what can happen, what does happen. It's influenced me to have a lot harder conversations, a lot quicker, like much quicker than I would have ever imagined I'd be ready for. I mean, honestly, I still don't feel like I'm ready for them, but I'm still having them. I mean, usually when I tell my kids no to something, I'm like, do you understand why I'm saying no? Like, Do you know why? And they're like, oh, it's because you just want us to be safe. I'm like, yes, it's because I want you to be safe. And that's why we have some of the rules that we have. Like, we do not do sleepovers in our house.

• 15:33Speaker 02

  And I would say it definitely has affected a lot of how I parented or how I parent today. I don't know that I would. I think I probably would have just kind of continued on in like the bubble that I grew up in, thinking like, oh, we, we live in a nice neighborhood. Like, we're a nice family, like, nothing bad could possibly happen to us. Like, we don't have enemies or we haven't, like, hurt anyone else. Like, nothing bad can happen to us. I think it would have been very easy just to kind of continue on in that mentality. Whereas now I'm like, who are you? What are you doing? Why do you think that's okay? No, you can't go there.

• 16:12Derrick Levasseur?

  Mm hmm. Hundred percent. We were, we were literally just talking about this because my oldest gives me some pushback now when I'm, she wanted to basically go with a friend's nanny to go to the mall and I was available. And I'm like, no, I'll bring you guys. I'll keep a safe distance. You'll have your phone on you, but if something happens, I'm within reach of you. Oh, dad, you're just like that because of what you saw when you were a detective. And I'm like, yeah, partially, but it's educated me and I use it to try to make sure it doesn't happen to you or someone I care about. Is there anything that you would offer advice towards? I mean, obviously you have your own practices. You said no sleepovers. I'm kind of on board with you there. There's been a couple of exceptions that I've made. People think I'm crazy, but I, I kind of agree with you.

• 16:56Derrick Levasseur?

  A lot of the cases that I worked, they usually started at a sleepover or a party like that at someone else's home, even when they had met the parents. So I'm, I'm kind of on board with you there. Is there any other tips like that you can think of that may help others?

• 17:10Speaker 02

  I mean, like, I think, like, a lot of parents will be like, well, Elizabeth, like, how do you talk to your kids without scaring them? Like, when do you start talking to them? I'm like, well, it's not just like one day you're just going along and all of a sudden you're like, okay, let's talk about rape, rape culture. Let's talk about, uh, human, like, I was like, it's not, you don't do that. Like, What really should have happened is like from the time that they're like little, you know, when you're talking like this is your nose, this is your, you know, your cheek, your lips, your teeth, like this is your elbow, like this is your penis, this is your, you know, your vulva, your vagina, like it should, like the conversations should honestly

• 17:52Speaker 02

  start like that, very young, very basic, not just refer to them as your private parts. And, and case in point, um, you know, day, a day after I was rescued, I was brought to the Children's Justice Center. I was told if I was, if I speak to these two psychiatrists, well, I actually wasn't told. My parents were told if I spoke to them that they could stand proxy for me during the trial. So I went in there. Um, it was very like intense interviewing. They wanted to get all the graphic nitty gritty details. And I ended up being two men, two middle aged men, um, who were both like clearly religious and like we didn't share a religion, which like, that's fine. Like that, I don't have a problem with

• 18:37Speaker 02

  that. But just like at that point in time, they were men. They were a similar age to my captor. They were both religious, like the imbalance of power there was already like way off. Yeah. Like I definitely felt threatened. I definitely felt unsafe. I definitely did not want to be there. There were all of these factors that played into this that already made me feel tense, uneasy, scared, nervous. And like, it was like the first full day that I was going to be home. There was no way I wanted to go to the Children's Justice Center to like rehash everything that had happened to me. So these, these two psychiatrists,

• 19:21Speaker 02

  they're like, well, what, what did they do to you? And I'd be like, well, they hurt me. And they'd be like, well, how'd they hurt you? And I'm like, well, they molested me. Well, how'd they molest you? And I'd be like, well, they raped me. And they'd be like, well, do you know what rape is? Could you explain rape to me? And I was like, well, yeah, he, you know, he forced himself inside me. And they'd be like, okay, no, we need you to like spell it out. Can you use anatomically correct body part names? And I was like, well, it got to the point where I had to say, he repeatedly forced his penis into my vagina. And as a 15 year old girl who really grew up only hearing like,

• 19:57Speaker 02

  People refer to like those genitalia as your private parts. They're your private parts. They're your private parts. Or like, you know, I've got four brothers, like them being boys. Like, I'd never said that before. And honestly, it was mortifying to me because there was already shame attached to the word penis or to the word vagina. So that was, I mean, like, everything about that situation was terrible to me. It was horrible to me. So when parents say like, well, where can I begin today? I say, well, like, when you're teaching them body parts, just call a penis a penis. Like, that's what it is. And it's a body part. Like, why is there a shame attached to it if it's just like, it's a body part?

• 20:43Speaker 02

  It's like elbow. It's like me.

• 20:44Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, Stephanie calls me that all the time, just the other, the other version of it.

• 20:50Speaker 02

  But I mean, like, I, I do just think, like, there is importance in teaching, uh, like, the anatomically correct body part names because it's so funny. I mean, I guess, like, maybe it's specific to Utah, but in my, actually, in my experience, I'd say it's pretty common everywhere that people have like their funny names for genitalia and like very few people just like refer to it as, yep, you know, my, my vagina hurts, my, my penis hurts, whatever. And there's like other versions. Yeah, other, like, other emotions are attached to it.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  And if you're like already coming from a conservative background, conservative culture, then you're, then it just makes it even worse. And so like, that's like something so easy that you can start off with right, right out of the door with, talking about and just being like, yep, this is what it is. And then, you know, from there, like, as they get a little bit older, like, kids naturally have kind of like that shy, not all kids, but in my kids, I've noticed like when they meet someone for the first time, like, they're not just like running up to them and being like, hey, like, they're a little bit standoffish. They're like, who are you? And they like stand behind me and like, you know, they're just more cautious, but also then reinforcing to them that like their body is their own, right?

• 22:13Speaker 02

  So my mother-in-law, she lives in the UK and so we don't see her very often. And it's always a big deal when she comes to visit because it's so far away. But Also helping my kids realize that if they did not want to give her a hug, because they didn't feel safe or they didn't feel comfortable, that that is their body, that that is their choice, that they don't have to hug anyone they don't want to. And you know, that would be a very easy thing for me to be like, but you know, this is your grandma. She came all the way from, from England to come and see you. She came all the way across the world just to see you. You don't want to give her a hug? It would be so easy for me as a parent to do that. But then what is that doing to them? That's reinforcing them that

• 22:59Speaker 02

  to some degree, their body is not their own, that they don't have ownership over their body and that they can't make decisions for their own body. And children should know that this is your body. Yes, there might be times where, um, you know, you, like a doctor might need to look at you, but that also being said, like, I should be present. As your mother, I should be present. Even if it's someone that you think you should trust and they're like, oh, it's okay. We can get just, we can just get changed naked together and you don't want to? You don't have to. Like teaching them that body autonomy, that their body is their own, that is a huge, that's huge. And letting them know that you support them in what they choose for their body, that is huge, not just overriding them and like being like, oh,

• 23:44Speaker 02

  but you never see her. Go give her a hug. Like these are, this is not just sitting there and talking and being like, oh, okay, well, we don't talk to people who we don't know. Because half the time strangers probably are the safer people than, than the ones you do know. But just starting with those, those are really basic, easy things. And then these conversations, it can't just be one and done. Like if you have a conversation with me once, I'm, I'm sorry, there's a very good chance that I will not be able to tell you. I might remember us talking, but I probably won't be able to tell you what we talked about if it was just one time. Like I need the repetition or I need notes taken during the conversation

• 24:27Speaker 02

  or a calendar invite, because if I don't have any of those, it's just not gonna happen.

• 24:32Stephanie Harlowe?

  I completely agree on the bodily autonomy thing with your children and I find that it can, for some reason, seem controversial within family dynamics, extended family dynamics. And you have to really make your boundaries clear on that to people because especially older generations, they don't understand. I was raised in a family, we were Italian, and it was like, no, you're seeing 75 of your uncles and cousins and aunts today and you're gonna hug every single one of them and you're gonna, if they want to give you a kiss, you're gonna give them a kiss because it's your family, it's what you do. And I remember as a kid being like, you know, I don't feel, it's just, it happens to be today, I don't feel like being touched. Like, I don't want to hug everybody, I don't feel like it today. And not having that

• 25:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  autonomy to say that as a child, it adds to the powerlessness that you already feel as a child. And you have to explain this to in-laws and even, you know, your own family. It's nothing personal, but if my child does not want to give you a hug today, or if my child doesn't want to go to your house today, or if my child doesn't want to sleep over at your house because they want to come home, this is not something you get to make them feel guilty or bad about because that's not how I'm choosing to raise them. And having to communicate your boundaries and make sure those are clear to people, even in your own family, can cause some pushback and some, yeah, because they don't understand it and they don't think that you should be raising

• 25:54Stephanie Harlowe?

  your kids that way for some reason. And it's so important, I completely agree. And, you know, it might be considered controversial by some, even in our own comment section, because Derek and I are always saying things. Yeah. We said no sleepovers and, you know, a few, a few episodes ago, and we had people being like, that's ridiculous. But no, this is, you know, we do true crime. We're in this world and we see these stories every day. And this is how we feel we need to, to raise our children and exist in the world in order to sleep at night and not be... Completely stressed out all the time and that's what happens.

• 26:32Speaker 02

  And even beyond that, you can do everything right. You can have the conversations, you can have the rules, you can, you can do everything right and bad things can still happen. I mean, like, I'm not saying my parents were perfect. We didn't have a lot of those conversations because we didn't know, but they certainly did their best. And I was by no means like a wild child. Nobody would have ever looked at me like as a 14 year old and been like, oh, gotta watch that one. Like she is a rebel. No one in their right mind would ever have thought that about me. Honestly, no one now probably would think about that, that about me now. But like, I lived in the right neighborhood. I lived in a nice home. I had a nice family.

• 27:17Speaker 02

  Like I went to bed when I was supposed to go to bed. I wasn't wandering down dark alleys. I wasn't like on, what was it back then? AOL or whatever it was back then.

• 27:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 27:29Speaker 02

  Yeah, like chatting online, going into chat rooms and talking to people I didn't know. Like I wasn't doing any of those things and it still happened to me. So even doing all the right things, bad things can still happen.

• 27:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, but I still love the premise of what you're saying and it's interesting because I'm learning as a parent every day. But the programming of your children, connecting those neurons and, and setting them up for something where they may have to make a decision and, and push back on something. I love that because with my kids, I push them a lot on like, hey, you never put your hands on someone. But if someone puts their hands on you, you have the right to defend yourself. You don't let people hurt you. And I've never had that conversation where it's like, hey, if you don't feel like giving someone a hug or a kiss, you have the right to say no. I've never had that conversation and now I will because I want them to start to, to correlate. Hey, I don't feel comfortable with this. I have the right, even if you're an adult, to push back. Because like you said, it's their body and I have two girls.

• 28:30Derrick Levasseur?

  So it's something where, you know, I, I try to have those conversations as the dad. It is difficult sometimes for me, but I'm trying to get more comfortable with it and it. And that is something where I love the idea of programming them young to have this ability to know that when someone, an adult, doesn't matter who it is, wants to touch you, you from the get go have the right to say no. It's your body. I think that's the underlying theme there is it's your body and it's a very interesting perspective because that could help them down the road. Now, your situation was a little different, obviously, but I think on a more surface level like sleepovers, if they're programmed to think, hey, if the if the adult pushes me to do this, I have to do it because that's what I've been taught. And so I do think there's something to that.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  Well, and then also just like taking it a step further, you know, we like we have cancel culture today. We have like if you

• 29:26Derrick Levasseur?

  What's that? I've never heard of it.

• 29:27Speaker 02

  You don't know what it is. You know, I don't either, actually. But like, I think it's, I think it's good to be as accurate, as compassionate as possible, like yes, to all of those things. I think being polite is good. I hope nobody would ever come across me and think, wow, she is just, she is so rude. Like, who does she think she is? Like, I hope nobody ever has that impression of me. But I also just want to say that I think many of us and probably more females as well than men, males,

• 30:07Speaker 02

  I would say they prioritize other people's feelings over their own safety. Like, I was given this example, I don't know, years ago, and it's always just kind of stuck in my head. And maybe you've already talked about it, or you've probably already heard it. So I'm probably just saying something you've already heard. But it just like affected me so much. I've never forgot it. In the animal kingdom, you would never see like a gazelle willingly get into an elevator with a lion. Like, there's no way.

• 30:37Derrick Levasseur?

  It's not gonna end well.

• 30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's not gonna end well. But like, as a woman, you know, like, if I'm going to the airport, like, and I get open the elevator and there's someone in there that I'm like, oh, whoa. It's almost like I just get in regardless because I'm like, oh, well, I'm waiting for the elevator. It's gonna look weird if I don't get in. There's just one person in there. Like, it'll probably be okay. And isn't that just like, kind of sad that I'm... And then also in my mind, I'm like, well, what will this person think if I don't get in? What if he thinks it's, I'm not getting in because of the way he looks, which...

• 31:11Stephanie Harlowe?

  It could be.

• 31:12Speaker 02

  Wouldn't fully be wrong.

• 31:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 31:14Speaker 02

  But...

• 31:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  So you mean, don't ignore your instincts? Like, if you just feel off about something... To make somebody else comfortable, or to not hurt their feelings?

• 31:21Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, we talk about that a lot.

• 31:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, I'm glad I don't do that, yeah.

• 31:25Speaker 02

  Or like, if you're on a date, like, I mean, I haven't been on a date for a really long time, like, with someone...

• 31:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  You're lucky, yeah.

• 31:31Speaker 02

  With someone besides my husband, and I haven't been on a date for a very long time. But, like, even back then, I can remember, like, thinking, like, oh, well, he just probably thinks this. Oh, well, he probably is just thinking that. Oh, well. And like, like, space, space, more space and more space, excuses, excuses and more excuses were given to us, like, I'm really not okay with this. And I should have, like, stopped it right when I had my first, like, whinge of something in my stomach, instead of waiting until I was like, this is a red flag. This is not okay.

• 32:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 32:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  I completely agree. I think it's amazing advice, especially nowadays.

• 32:07Derrick Levasseur?

  Better be safe than sorry, right?

• 32:08Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 32:09Stephanie Harlowe?

  Women do have a tendency to ignore their instincts because they're trying to make other people comfortable, or they're afraid of hurting feelings, or they're afraid of, you know, being called a bitch, or you look like a, you seem mean.

• 32:20Derrick Levasseur?

  You're stuck up.

• 32:20Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah. Yeah. That's great advice for our audience, who is, you know, I would say, majority female.

• 32:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, about eighty, ninety percent female. Yeah, for sure.

• 32:34Derrick Levasseur?

  We had a lot of questions from our audience. We're gonna get to them. We had some Patreon questions. We had some questions in the comments. I personally have a couple of questions because our format is Stephanie kind of tells, she does all the research, she tells me the story, and then I ask questions to her. But there were a couple of questions I wanted to ask you, and not necessarily to do exactly with the case, but maybe the trial as well. The first question I had, which you may be able to answer it, you may not, but just being around Brian David Mitchell for as long as you had been around him... At some point, he may have become, I guess, bored, right? Being up there. Let's say that they didn't find you, that they didn't identify you, that they didn't bring you back home. What do you think the end game for Brian was?

• 33:17Derrick Levasseur?

  Do you think that he would have let you leave at some point? Do you think he would have killed you? What do you think would have happened if you were up there much longer than you had already been?

• 33:26Speaker 02

  He would have never let me go.

• 33:28Derrick Levasseur?

  Never. No, I don't, I agree. He would, definitely not.

• 33:31Speaker 02

  He would have never let me go. I feel like a little bit, a little bit torn saying this because like the whole defense in the trial was like a question of competency.

• 33:48Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, which is, we're gonna talk about that, too.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  Could he be made competent to stand trial right now? And could they prove competency back then? And like, everything just, everything just circled around whether or not he was competent then and now. And so I've always been like really hesitant to say like he was crazy or he didn't understand what he was doing because he did. He did.

• 34:10Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yeah, for sure.

• 34:11Speaker 02

  He knew what he was doing. He found out the best way to manipulate people and he took advantage of it. And ultimately, I think what it came down to was just, he wanted to rape little girls. He wanted to feel like he was in control. He wanted to feel like he was powerful. He wanted to do what he wanted to do without getting in trouble. So I don't think he would have ever let me go. I think he would have continued. I know, whoa, I mean, he did make two other attempts to kidnap other girls.

• 34:38Derrick Levasseur?

  That's right, yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 02

  Um, I think he would have kept trying to kidnap more girls, whether or not he was successful. Thank heavens. I am a late bloomer, quite literally, in every sense of the word. You know, I didn't start my period until after I had been kidnapped for six months. So like, I, I'd only had a period three times before I was rescued and like, they weren't regular. I know this is all territory you wanted to go into.

• 35:05Derrick Levasseur?

  Totally.

• 35:06Speaker 02

  But like, they weren't regularly, like, I, I bled non-stop, but.

• 35:12Speaker 02

  No doubt, like eventually they would have become regular and I would have gotten pregnant at some point.

• 35:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 35:17Speaker 02

  And I could have died. I don't know. Like, he could have killed me. Like, he would not have let me go.

• 35:24Derrick Levasseur?

  That's, that's why I ask because, and I hate to use the word lucky, I'm not, you know, I won't, but a lot of the cases that I worked where something similar occurs where there's, there's molestation for an extended period of time, the offenders will, like you said, they're not going to let you go because you're a liability, right? But also they get fatigued and then they ultimately will kill you. So I, I don't want to say lucky, but the fact that you're still with us, we're so lucky to have you because it could have gone the other way. Where if he had gotten fatigued and no longer felt like he quote unquote had use for you, he could have killed you and we could have found you in those woods. And I'm so happy that's not the case, but that, that's something where it could have gone either way. And I, I hear the story and I think about how long he had you there. It could have ended a lot. I wish it would have ended a lot sooner, but

• 36:09Derrick Levasseur?

  that lucky for us, he, he, he didn't go to that extreme. He wanted you around. Like you said, he wanted to bring in more girls. But um, that is something that I think about because just one day if he came up that mountain and said, you know what? This is just too much. This is getting to be too much of a hassle for me. It could have been a different story and I'm so glad that that's not the case.

• 36:28Speaker 02

  Me too.

• 36:29Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you too.

• 36:30Stephanie Harlowe?

  I know Derek wanted to also talk about the time in the library when you were there.

• 36:34Derrick Levasseur?

  Oh, yes.

• 36:35Stephanie Harlowe?

  With Brian David Mitchell and Wanda and the detective came in, the homicide detective. And he was looking for you because there had been a report that you were there and somebody had recognized your eyes. And, you know, he was asking you to remove the veil and they wouldn't let him. And how, how did you feel in that moment? Because obviously you talked about it in your book and, you know, we, we theorized, well, how, how would you have known that this was a man you could trust when you had already been shown that you couldn't trust this other adult man that you were with? How did you know that even if you had removed the veil or grabbed him? Like this detective said, you know, well, she could have just grabbed me and then she would have been safe.

• 37:13Stephanie Harlowe?

  I mean, this, this Brian David Mitchell was convincing this guy that he was related to you in some ways. So would the, would the detective have actually just? Snatched you away and brought you to safety. How would you have known that? Not only as a child, but as a child who had gone through so much and had their reality so skewed. So what was your feeling in that moment when you were in the library?

• 37:34Speaker 02

  I was scared. And that is another question I have been asked so many times. And for years, I I didn't even know how to answer. Like, I felt angry when people used to ask me it. Because in my mind, it was always just like so clear, like, I didn't know who this detective was. And actually, funny enough, I didn't even know what the word homicide meant back then. So he's like, I'm a homicide detective. I knew what detective was, but I was like, I have no idea. I don't know what homicide means. Like, he didn't say, I'm looking for Elizabeth Smart. He never at any point in my memory ever said Elizabeth Smart. He just said, we've had a call, we're looking for someone, you know, you've been mentioned, we just want to see your face, blah, blah, blah.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  And now by that point, you know, I had been held captive for like four months, three, four months. Like, it had been

• 38:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 38:30Speaker 02

  It had been a significant amount of time. And in that time, no one had ever stopped him from hurting me. Nobody had ever stopped him from raping me. No one had ever stopped him from like withholding water or food or stopping me from sleeping. Like, no one had ever stood in his way and protected me. And I feel like for me, I just had to, the only person I could rely on was myself. And I had realized early on that my best chance of survival was to do what they said. If I did what they said, then maybe they would like me or a little bit like me.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  And if they liked me a little bit, maybe that would make them a little bit less likely to kill me because they could kill me. They a hundred percent could kill me at any point in time. And so that had more or less been my Strategy of survival, just do whatever it is you have to do to survive. And up until that point, it was doing what they said to survive. And you know, my captors said, you know, if you ever scream, if you ever run, if you ever do something we don't want you to do, you know, we'll kill you, we don't kill you, we'll kill your family. And like, after experiencing everything that I have experienced at their hands, those were very, very real threats. And so again, like although this man came up and he was like, I'm a detective. Like, I didn't know who he was.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  And like, I didn't have any relationships with, like, I didn't know anyone who was a police officer. The most interaction I had with police officers prior to my abduction was, was the DARE program in fifth grade. That was as much interaction as I ever had with a police officer. And so I didn't, I didn't know if they were capable of protecting me. I mean, my captor used to bring back newspaper articles of, of the search being put on for me, or the missing flyers that had my face on it. He'd bring them back to the camp and you'd be like, oh, the whole world's looking for you, but nobody's ever gonna find you because I have you. And it felt like that was true. Like, people came so close, so many times to finding me.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  But then they didn't. And when that happened, after that happened enough times, I mean, it really,

• 40:51Speaker 02

  it really did just begin to feel like my, my chance of, of rescue would be outliving them, would be just sheer age.

• 41:02Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, I mean, I, I've never looked at it from the perspective of you did anything wrong. Like, you're, you're a young woman trying to stay alive, exactly what you just said. I did give the detective a little bit of shit in the episode because for me, I understand it was a religious thing, but considering the circumstances, and I had talked about how I would have handled it, but you would have been taking the veil off. It would have been there, or it would have been at the station. And I know that's kind of like Monday morning quarterbacking it. But I guess like a follow-up question would be, and I'm sure this detective feels horrible about it. Have you ever had the chance to speak with him?

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Um, I did, actually. I met him during the trial. And actually, I think he had, he has since passed since then. I want to say he died of cancer perhaps, but I mean, he, he was crying when, when we chatted in the trial. But also like to cut him some slack. I think if you go back to 2002, like the time that I was kidnapped, it was only nine months after nine 11 happened. And I guess I can't speak for anywhere else in the country. But from my perspective, as a 14 year old kid, watching the twin towers come down, watching everything that happened after that. There was a level of fear.

• 42:18Speaker 02

  I feel like within the country around any kind of extremism. There was a, there was a level of fear around Islam. At least that is what I perceived as a 14 year old child. An adult might have a different perspective. Um, but that is my perspective as a kid. And because I remember like on the few occasions that he'd bring me down into Salt Lake, you know, we were dressed in ropes. We had on veils. I mean, people referred to them as burkas. Um, but like people would see us walking down the street. They would stop, they'd cross the other side of the street. They'd keep walking till they were past us and then they'd cross back over. Or people would roll down their windows and stick their heads out of their windows and yell Osama at us.

• 43:03Speaker 02

  So, I mean, like to give that cop some, um, like.

• 43:09Derrick Levasseur?

  Leeway, a little bit of.

• 43:10Speaker 02

  Leeway, give him, give him a little bit of a break. I mean, I do think it was an incredibly religiously sensitive time in the country.

• 43:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Fair. I still would have made you take the veil down, but that's fine.

• 43:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  Somebody had asked if you could face Brian David Mitchell now and stand in front of him, would you do that? Would there be anything you'd have to say to him? Or is this kind of like, you're not even on my radar, you're not worth my energy, I have nothing to say to you. Why would I? It's you don't even exist.

• 43:49Speaker 02

  No, I don't have anything to say to him. I mean, no, I have no desire to see him or to see Wanda Barzee. Like, I have no desire to have anything to do with him ever again.

• 44:04Stephanie Harlowe?

  What do you think about, we talked briefly at the end of the last episode, Wanda getting out and then being arrested because she's in a park where she's not supposed to be. And then she says it's because God told her to go to this park. And I said, listen, this woman, you know, we can say what we want about Brian David Mitchell, I don't think there was ever a point where he was insane or didn't know what he was doing. Wanda Barzee, on the other hand, the woman's not in her right mind, never has been. And I mean, even her own children said so. Why is she getting out? And then why after she's clearly saying, you know, God told me to go to the park, which either you're manipulating people, and I don't think she's smart enough to do that, or you actually, there's something

• 44:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  mentally wrong with you and you need to be someplace where you can be watched. What is her, she got arrested, but she got, after she violated her parole, but she's, she's back out. She's out there now, correct?

• 44:57Derrick Levasseur?

  Incredible.

• 44:58Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:59Derrick Levasseur?

  It's insane to me, but that's my opinion.

• 45:01Stephanie Harlowe?

  What do you think about that? And how does it make you feel? And what, do you think she should be in prison forever? Because I think she should be in prison forever.

• 45:11Derrick Levasseur?

  100%.

• 45:12Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 45:13Speaker 02

  I was, I was very disappointed when she was released. I remember just feeling like, she was right there.

• 45:23Derrick Levasseur?

  100%.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  She watched it happen. She was, you know, she planned, she helped plan the kidnapping. She watched it happen. She prepared me to be raped by him. She encouraged it. She watched, like, my mom, when I was little, I remember she told us that if we ever saw bullying, like, on the school bus or at school, that if we didn't stick up for that kid, that we were a part of the problem. And maybe that stuck in my head, maybe a little bit too much. Maybe not, because I look at her and I'm like, well, she didn't stick up for me. She's guilty. And then when you take into account that she had a prior marriage where she had six children

• 46:05Speaker 02

  in her prior marriage, like six, not one, not two, six. And like, whether or not she was a crappy mom, like, I don't know, but she kept them alive. And there were six of them.

• 46:19Derrick Levasseur?

  Now, Stephanie went into that a little bit. We talked about that as well.

• 46:22Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, she wasn't a, she wasn't known to be a great mother, no.

• 46:26Derrick Levasseur?

  Yes, I know. That's probably no surprise to you. On that same note, we had another question from a Patreon member. Her name's Alexandria. She said, what was it like to navigate the court system as a survivor, especially having to testify and face cross examination? And how do you view the justice system's role in supporting victims or failing survivors during that process? Because we had some opinions about the defense team and some of the choices they made.

• 46:52Speaker 02

  Well, as do I. We don't have a justice system. We have a legal system. I will never get back what was taken from me. No one can do that. No one can give back to me what was taken. No one can give back the life that was taken, the experiences taken, that the whole life change that came about because of my kidnapping, no one can go back and give me the life that I would have had. No one can go back and give me back my childhood. Like, those things are gone. So we have a legal system and it is not victim friendly. It is, I know this will never happen. And I'm not trying to sound pessimistic. It's just, it never will.

• 47:36Speaker 02

  But when it comes to crimes, sex crimes, and specifically sex crimes against children.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  It shouldn't be innocent until proven guilty. It should be guilty until proven innocent. In my opinion, it's it's not fun. It's awful. I don't I understand why victims don't want to press charges. I understand why they don't want to go through the courts. It's not a pleasant experience. It is a miserable experience. And it feels like it feels like the whole court system is giving all the advantage to the perpetrator as opposed to the victim. And I mean, whether that's true or not, that's just how it feels. And it sucks.

• 48:22Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, you you experienced it. No, we we talked about it a lot. We just for me and your case, and you already said it. There are some circumstances where allegations can be made in there. It's a slippery slope there, right? But with your case specifically, it was a no brainer. Nobody was disputing the fact that he did what he did. And by having those loopholes in the court system, he immediately went to from being very coherent, in my opinion, during those initial interrogations to singing Bible verses and hymns and all these different things, because he knew what he needed to do to try to get to that level of being incompetent. So the system was set up for him to try to to beat it. Fortunately, he didn't. But to your point, I do think the justice system failed you to a certain degree because I think

• 49:06Derrick Levasseur?

  Wanda is equally culpable. And yet she's walking amongst us today so that, you know, even though you've been able to move on with your life and you have a beautiful family and you're doing a lot of great things, the fact that you as a victim have to know that one of your offenders, and in my opinion, they're both they're pretty close to equal in my mind.

• 49:24Speaker 02

  No, I'm with you.

• 49:25Derrick Levasseur?

  The fact that she's out there, that revictimizes you. You might be strong enough to move past it, but you shouldn't have to.

• 49:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was not happy when she was released. And then I remember the governor coming out and saying, we're going to keep her on a very short leash, like, we're going to be watching her. And yeah, she's been out now for, you know, a long time. And apparently that leash disappeared because.

• 49:47Derrick Levasseur?

  Of course it does. It always does until they reoffend. And then they'll go, oh, you know, but that's the system. We're sorry. It's the same thing with the sex offenders who get out after committing a heinous act. And then they're on the sex offender registration. And supposedly that's supposed to prevent them from doing it again. Again, I don't want to go off on a tangent, but yeah, it drives me insane.

• 50:06Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel like chemical castration should be put on the table, but that's just me.

• 50:11Derrick Levasseur?

  Elizabeth, we knew you were our people, because you know, we get canceled for this shit all the time. But we have a, we have no leash for, for anybody who commits crimes against children over here at Crime Weekly. It's, it's one and done.

• 50:23Speaker 02

  It makes me question, like, if you, like, if you can't understand that, then what's, what's in your closet?

• 50:28Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, yeah, well, yes, right.

• 50:30Derrick Levasseur?

  No doubt, which is a whole nother can of worms.

• 50:33Stephanie Harlowe?

  Once again, does it come down to being afraid of offending somebody as opposed to protecting everyone, right? That's where it comes down to when it's like, oh, you know, people are afraid of offending somebody and people want to be politically correct and nobody wants to get canceled. And what is the price we pay for this surface politeness when under the surface, what's really happening is ugly? And we don't want to acknowledge it because it might offend somebody or it might make somebody feel bad or not even just crimes against children, crimes in general with, with bail reform and how we see people continually get out to commit again, commit again, commit again.

• 51:14Stephanie Harlowe?

  To the point where it's like, okay, how many times do they have to hurt somebody innocent before we're like, maybe they shouldn't get out again?

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And, you know, I, like, I believe in compassion and I, like, I believe in trying to give people the opportunity to change. But no one changes who doesn't want to change. And, like, you should, like, I don't know what needs to be in place. Like, that's not my job to know what the bar should be, but like...

• 51:45Derrick Levasseur?

  No, it's, it's simple, though. If you, if you offend and you're found guilty of a crime against a child, that should be one and done. We should do our, our jobs as a parent, as adults, to make sure that you can never do it again. Period. Full stop. You did it once, you were convicted, you went through the due process, you were found guilty. We're gonna make sure that you're never able to do it again. I'm not saying it has to be to the extreme of lethal injection, although depending on the crime, I'm not opposed to that. What I am, what I, what I am saying is, at minimum, we're gonna put you in a circumstance where you're incapable of hurting anybody else. That's our job. That's our job as adults.

• 52:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:19Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, we know that you probably have things to do today. You have a family, you have that you have to take care of your kids, and you're very busy. And also, probably at this point, you value the quality time that you get with your family in the evenings and on the weekends and things. So we can wrap this up, Derek. Is there anything that you want to say specifically? Or I know there was a few questions you wanted to ask. I got my Wanda Barzee question in. We get the library question in. I know that a lot of people have said that you are inspiring to them, that they have gone through similar things, and it's really helped them to see your strength. And I mean, there was a question that we had

• 53:02Stephanie Harlowe?

  from Patreon, which I'm also curious about, because it's been a long time at this point, between then and now. And they wanted to know, is there any current fallout? Like, do you still go through periods of unexplained anger, depression, isolation? How are you managing your mental health now? Is it pretty much something that you have compartmentalized? And you're like, hey, I'm not going to let it bleed into today. I'm focused on living now? Or are there still times when it sneaks up on you?

• 53:30Speaker 02

  I feel like things are pretty well compartmentalized for me. I mean, I do quite a bit of speaking and presentations. And with that, comes a lot of like, meet and greets afterwards. And I definitely have come to recognize, like, I have a bandwidth. Like, I, and once that bandwidth is hit, like, I need to be done. I would say, like, the bandwidth is pretty, I've got a pretty decent one. But also, like, there kind of comes a time where I'm like, okay, I just need to, like, have a few days where no one needs anything from me, except my kids, because they're not going to need anything from me

• 54:12Speaker 02

  that's like, read this, read this book about me being abducted, or, you know, like, the things they need from me are like, what's for breakfast? What's for dinner? Like, did you get my book? Did you do this? I can deal with that. So yeah, I definitely find myself like,

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Making sure I need to just like recognize when that bandwidth is done, like take some time away before coming back in because otherwise. Yeah, that's when it, if I don't have that, that's kind of when I start to, viral is not the right word, but.

• 54:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  It starts to, it starts to bleed in a little bit.

• 54:50Speaker 02

  I become less polite to be around.

• 54:53Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 54:53Speaker 02

  And if you heard like my inner dialogue, you'd be like, holy cow, she is nasty.

• 54:58Stephanie Harlowe?

  Well, I mean, I get it. Derek, Derek sees me hide under the table sometimes at conventions because I'm socially tapped out. It's, you know, it's true crime and you have people that come up to you and they tell you their stories because they, a lot of people are interested in true crime who have gone through it or family members and things like that. And we, we meet family members of people who are missing or have been murdered. And when you're an empathetic person, you absorb it, you absorb it, you absorb it. And then there's only so much until you're like, okay, I need to step back. And that goes back to listening to yourself, right? Like you were saying, listen to your instincts. Hey, I've, I've had enough right now and I can't be of any help to anybody. If I'm not whole and if I'm not strong, so I need to step back and take some time.

• 55:44Stephanie Harlowe?

  Because you don't want it to bleed in, you kind of have to keep up a certain amount of protection and a certain level of borders. And then if those start to fall, you need, you need to know you just step back and take care of yourself. And I think that goes back to listening to yourself.

• 55:57Speaker 02

  I mean, and that's like, I would say that's true of like, like media I consume or like, like when my kids go to bed and my husband's like, oh, I want to watch your show or whatever, like if he turns on something that's like violent, I'm like, nope, can't do this. Or like honestly, like even like documentary documentaries, I would be like, well, I can't watch, this is going to be a book night. You feel free, you watch that. I'm going to sit over here and read my book that has nothing to do with any of these things.

• 56:25Stephanie Harlowe?

  Are you just watching Gilmore Girls for the 55th time?

• 56:29Speaker 02

  I mean, for me, it's the British baking show, but yeah.

• 56:31Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, he has, alright.

• 56:33Speaker 02

  Or like, there was that book where the crawdads sing.

• 56:38Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Like my friend read it and she's like, oh, you'll love it. She's like, this is my favorite book. And I read it. And she's like, what'd you think of it? And I was like, I hated it.

• 56:48Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 56:48Speaker 02

  Actually.

• 56:50Stephanie Harlowe?

  Like, it's sad.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  I mean, it's well written.

• 56:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yes.

• 56:53Speaker 02

  But I'm like, do I feel bad that that guy died? No, I don't feel bad. Am I like happy he died? Sure, I'm happy he died, but like, it's just not, it's not realistic. How many victims actually turn around and kill their perpetrator? Not very many. And the ones that do, half the time, they're the ones that end up behind bars. Like, how many cases of that have we seen?

• 57:17Stephanie Harlowe?

  We have seen that, yeah.

• 57:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 57:19Speaker 02

  And or like. Like when I saw the movie Finding Nemo, I feel like that came out shortly after I was rescued. And like, I went to see it with like a group of friends and we went and saw and everyone was like, oh, it's so cute. It's so cute. I love it. Just keep swimming. I was like, I hated it. And they're like,

• 57:37Speaker 02

  why'd you hate it? And I was like, kidnapping is not fun. You don't get kidnapped and like go to some like cool new place, make all these cool new friends and plan an escape like it's a big adventure. I was like, that is not what kidnapping is. And now I know this is like a kid's movie and this is me going off on it, but I'm just saying like.

• 57:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  That's an interesting perspective, actually.

• 57:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Your friends are sitting there like, damn.

• 58:00Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, like, can't watch a movie with Elizabeth.

• 58:05Speaker 02

  Pretty much.

• 58:06Stephanie Harlowe?

  Cause it's simplifying something that's it's simplifying and and kind of making something seem innocent that in reality, if it was really happening and it wasn't a cartoon, would not be simple or innocent. So I completely, I've never thought of that perspective and that's very interesting.

• 58:22Speaker 02

  I get you can't, I mean, if you tried to like, keep everyone's sensitivities in mind, like you couldn't make anything. It would just be a white screen, right? You're always gonna upset someone or offend someone. So I guess, I guess the moral of the story is just like, be the best you can be, live life the best you can do.

• 58:38Derrick Levasseur?

  Not everyone's gonna love you too. It's better just to be honest. No, I mean, listen, if we, if it was up to us, we could talk to you for five hours. We've been talking about you now for five weeks. So having you here, it's, you know, it's, it was weird the whole time hearing about you, knowing that I had already met you. But um, we want to be. respectful of your time. I will let everybody know. We had a lot of questions come in. We didn't get to all of them. We tried to integrate them and honestly, Elizabeth, you answered a lot of them without us even asking you. So I think a lot of the questions I'm looking at right now from our Patreon members, from the YouTube page, from Apple Podcasts, we tried to get to a lot of them. Can't get to all of them, but if you want, you can go pick up Elizabeth's new book, Detours. I saw it's available on Amazon right now. It's probably available

• 59:20Derrick Levasseur?

  in bookstores as well, and she has multiple books. My story, is there one more?

• 59:24Speaker 02

  Yeah, my second book was called Where There's Hope.

• 59:27Derrick Levasseur?

  Where There's Hope. So there's three different books you can go to. Where can they follow you, Elizabeth? If you, for what channels you're comfortable sharing, where would people, if they want to follow you now on your journey?

• 59:35Speaker 02

  I'm on Instagram, Elizabeth Smart Official. My foundation is on Instagram, Facebook, which is just Elizabeth Smart Foundation, really original, I know. I mean, you can go to ElizabethSmart.com or ElizabethSmartFoundation.org. I recently started a YouTube channel, so.

• 59:52Stephanie Harlowe?

  Oh, we saw, we saw, we got.

• 59:54Speaker 02

  Stumbling around blindly.

• 59:55Derrick Levasseur?

  We got your video.

• 59:56Stephanie Harlowe?

  When you were going to the campsite, yeah.

• 59:58Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah.

• 59:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 59:59Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah.

• 59:59Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 1:00:00Derrick Levasseur?

  Which was, by the way, just incredible that you were willing to go back there. And the way you talk about it, it's very grounded where I can follow you, but then I think about the context and I'm like, the fact that she's back there is just incredible that you're willing to go face that head on, even though, I mean, it's been years later, a lot of people wouldn't have the strength to do that.

• 1:00:16Stephanie Harlowe?

  Yeah, still.

• 1:00:18Derrick Levasseur?

  Yeah, it's incredible. Also, it was a docu-series on Netflix, right? Is it multiple episodes?

• 1:00:22Speaker 02

  Documentary, just one.

• 1:00:23Derrick Levasseur?

  Documentary, Kidnapped, right? Kidnapped, Elizabeth Smart on Netflix as well, very successful. We appreciate you being here. You didn't have to do that. And I appreciate you coming on and spending some time with us. And we just wish the best for you. Anything we can do to help in the future for anything you have going on, any of your advocacy efforts, you have my number, reach out, we're there for you.

• 1:00:44Speaker 02

  Okay, thank you so much.

• 1:00:45Stephanie Harlowe?

  Thank you so much.

• 1:00:46Derrick Levasseur?

  Thank you so much. Have a good night.

• 1:00:47Speaker 02

  You too.

• 1:00:49Stephanie Harlowe?

  So we are so grateful to Elizabeth for coming on and talking to us. And Derek said this before we started filming the outro, we could have talked to her for hours and hours. And I know that everybody had questions. And as Derek said to Elizabeth, I think a lot of those questions were addressed and answered during the conversation with Elizabeth, which I would, you know, I would love to sit down with her, have some time to really dive deeper into the whole psychology and trauma aspect, because I think that her perspective could help so many people. But as I said, I do believe that her book, the one that she just came out with, December of 2025, would be so helpful, because there were so

• 1:01:29Stephanie Harlowe?

  many of you in the comments and in the questions who have gone through horrible things and are struggling with that as the passage of time goes on. And I really do think, I read this book, I found it to be incredibly, as she said, a companion to return to. And I have returned to it multiple times. So I do think it would be very, very helpful, a comfort and a guide and a compass for many people who have voiced their struggles, because it is, is very well written. And like I said, her perspective on this is very important and relevant. So check that out. Thank you all so much for being here. Derek?

• 1:02:10Derrick Levasseur?

  No, I appreciate, thank you, Elizabeth. She didn't have to do this. You could kind of see she was doing it from her home. She's doing a lot of interviews, especially with the Netflix thing. So I appreciate her taking some time to hop on here and speak with us and answer a few of our questions. And again, thank you to all the commenters who left questions. Thank you to our new Patreon members. The Patreon thing, huge success. We actually sold out of the Partner in Crime tiers. Give us a couple of months to see if we can handle that amount, and maybe we'll open it up. Stephanie's already like, can we open it up for a couple more people? And I would love to. I just don't want to degrade the quality of what we're doing. We want to make sure we treat everybody's request with equal care. So let us just get a grip on it. And, and we'll go from there. We're going to do the bonus episode. We're going to have the live this month. So if you're subscribed

• 1:02:53Derrick Levasseur?

  to Patreon, you're still going to get all of that. But yes, thank you to everybody for the questions. Thank you to Elizabeth. We appreciate you being here. We'll be back next week with a new Crime Weekly News, new Crime Weekly episode. This case we're going to talk about, a little bit more obscure. It's going to be a good one. We won't spoil it here. So until then, everyone stay safe out there, and we'll see you soon.

• 1:03:15Stephanie Harlowe?

  Bye.