UPDATE: Ellen Greenberg

Ellen Rae Greenberg had everything going for her when she was found dead in the apartment she shares with her fiancé. Police are quick to say she died by suicide – despite the 20 stab wounds she sustained. But her heartbroken parents are sure she was murdered and their search for answers has raised serious questions about the investigation.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Do me a favor. Put all five fingers up. Now, put one down if you have workout saved on Instagram that you haven't gone back to. Put one down if you were gonna go to a workout class this week, but there's just none that the times worked out for. Put one down if you don't like working out at home because you don't know what to do and you need someone to push you. Put two fingers down if you want to stop this game. Babe, we are the same. I don't have a lot of time and honestly, I'm not even someone who likes working out. But Ladder actually changed that. I literally had to waddle into the studio to record this because my butt is so sore. Ladder is quick. I'm not wasting time wandering around or doing reps of something that won't matter. I'm in, I'm out. I have a coach along the way who can help me make 30 minutes with weights feel better than two hours of whatever I was doing before. And it's $1 a day.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  So if price was ever stopping you before, you're officially out of excuses. Remove the guesswork with Ladder and get a real coach in your ear telling you exactly what to do for every workout. No thinking, everything planned for you. If you have an iPhone, head to ladder.fit/crimejunkie and take a quick quiz to find your perfect Ladder plan. Use my link and get a free seven-day trial with no credit card and $10 off your first month if you join. Hi, Crime Junkies. I wanted to bring you some updates on an old case. Lots of you are hitting us up telling us that you're watching the new documentary that just came out on Ellen Greenberg and asking for our thoughts. We covered it in-depth with tons of original reporting back in 2021.

• 1:29Speaker 00

  And 200 episodes later, we're bringing it back, but with a twist. At the end of the episode, you're gonna hear from AudioChuck's own Nina Schutzman, who reported on this case. She's gonna get you up to speed on everything that has happened between us airing that episode and this new doc. Because just because we hit publish on an episode does not mean we stop following a case. This is the perfect catch-up before you dive into the documentary, and I want to hear from you after. The facts of the case in the doc are pretty much the same as we reported on back then, but there's some interesting insights into Ellen's life in the weeks and hours leading up to her death. And you get to hear from some key witnesses who were in the apartment complex that day. Does it change your opinion? At all. Comment if you're in the fan club so we can talk about it.

• 2:13Speaker 00

  Hit us up on social. I want to know your opinion. So let's get into it. This is the mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg.

• 2:53Speaker 00

  It's late in the afternoon on Wednesday, January 26, 2011, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. Sam Goldberg is getting back to his apartment after a trip to the gym. After a month of snowstorms, the city is in the midst of yet another blizzard, and people aren't leaving their homes unless they absolutely have to. But Sam didn't need to go outside to get some exercise, because there's a fitness center on site in the Venice Lofts, this luxury condo building where he lives with his fiance, 27-year-old Ellen Rae Greenberg. So when he's done working out, he goes back to his apartment and goes to open the front door, like normal. But according to Sam, there's like this swing bar lock, like a door latch, secured from the inside. So he can't get in, even though he's got his key.

• 3:39Speaker 00

  So he tries calling and texting his fiance, who should be inside, but she doesn't respond, and she doesn't open the door. So eventually, he says he just forces the door open. At around 6:30 PM, 911 Dispatch gets a call from Sam. Here is the actual audio from that call, which was provided to us by private investigator Tom Brennan.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Help, I need, I need a, I'm, I'm, I'm, I just, I just walked to my apartment. My fiance is on the floor with blood everywhere.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  What is the address?

• 4:12Speaker 01

  4601 Flat Rock Road. Please come, help, now.

• 4:15Speaker 02

  4601 Flat?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Flat Rock Road.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Is this a house or apartment?

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Oh, no. It's an apartment.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  What apartment, Tomper?

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Please, Harry, please.

• 4:27Speaker 03

  Where is she bleeding from?

• 4:28Speaker 01

  She- I don't know, I can't tell, she's-.

• 4:29Speaker 03

  No, sir, you have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help.

• 4:34Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, I'm sorry, she- I don't know, I- I'm looking at her right now.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  She- I don't- I can't see anything, she doesn't- there's nothing broken, she's bleed- Ellie?

• 4:44Speaker 03

  You don't know where she's bleeding from, can't tell where the blood's coming from?

• 4:47Speaker 01

  Ellie, it's, I think, her head, I think she hit her head, I think.

• 4:50Speaker 03

  Think she might have fallen?

• 4:51Speaker 01

  But it's all about everywhere.

• 4:51Speaker 03

  Okay, sir.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  It's everywhere.

• 4:52Speaker 03

  Think she might have fallen, do you know what happened?

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, I- she- she may have slipped, there's blood on the- on the table, her- her face is a little purple.

• 5:00Speaker 03

  Okay, hold on for rescue for her, stay on the phone.

• 5:14Speaker 03

  What up, FBI Department, eight four two, what's the address? No, two one.

• 5:17Speaker 01

  Uh, forty-six oh one Flat Rock Road, please, Harry?

• 5:21Speaker 03

  Forty-six oh one Flat Rock?

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:24Speaker 03

  What's wrong?

• 5:25Speaker 01

  My- like, I just- my- I went downstairs to go work out, I came back up, the door was latched. My fiance's inside, she wasn't- she wasn't answering, so after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now, just on the floor, blood, like, she's not- she's not responding.

• 5:41Speaker 03

  Okay, is she breathing?

• 5:42Speaker 01

  She- I-.

• 5:44Speaker 03

  Look at her chest, I need you to calm down, and I need you to look at her chest, it's really-.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  I don't think she- I really don't think she is.

• 5:50Speaker 03

  Listen to me, someone's on the way, look at her chest, is she flat on her back?

• 5:54Speaker 01

  She's on her back, like, her-.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Okay, look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  I don't see her moving.

• 6:00Speaker 03

  Okay, do you know how to do CPR?

• 6:02Speaker 01

  I don't.

• 6:03Speaker 03

  Okay, I can tell you what to do, okay, until they get there. I want you to keep her flat on her-.

• 6:07Speaker 01

  Oh, God.

• 6:08Speaker 03

  Hello?

• 6:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, hi, okay.

• 6:09Speaker 03

  Are you willing to do CPR with me over the phone until they get there?

• 6:12Speaker 01

  I g- I- I have to, right?

• 6:14Speaker 03

  Okay, so get her flat on her back, bare her chest, okay, you wanna rip her shirt off?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  God, [BLEEP].

• 6:19Speaker 03

  Okay, make the deal down by her side.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, Ellie, please.

• 6:24Speaker 03

  Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir, 'cause you're not-.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Okay, I'm trying not to, I'm trying not- her shirt won't come off, it's a zipper.

• 6:31Speaker 03

  Rip it off.

• 6:31Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, she stabbed herself.

• 6:33Speaker 03

  Where?

• 6:34Speaker 01

  She fell on a knife, oh, no, her knife's sticking out.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  Her what?

• 6:38Speaker 01

  There's a knife sticking out of her heart.

• 6:40Speaker 03

  Oh, she stabbed herself?

• 6:42Speaker 01

  I ca- I guess so, I don't know where she fell on it, I don't know.

• 6:45Speaker 03

  Okay, well, don't touch it.

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Okay, so I'm just probably just let her out here now. I mean, what do I do?

• 6:50Speaker 03

  No, I mean, you can't, if the knife is in her chest, it's gonna be kinda hard for you to do CPR at this time.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  Oh, no. Oh, my goodness. Okay.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Police, which operator?

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Two seven seven.

• 7:00Speaker 01

  Is someone coming here?

• 7:01Speaker 03

  Yes, they are. You said forty six zero one Flat Rock, right?

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 7:06Speaker 03

  Okay, someone's on the way. And the knife is still inside?

• 7:09Speaker 01

  Which, what?

• 7:10Speaker 03

  The knife is still inside of her?

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Yes, I didn't take it out.

• 7:13Speaker 02

  Was it her chest or what area?

• 7:15Speaker 03

  It's in her chest.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  It's like, it looks like it's right, it's, looks like it's right in her heart.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  Okay, someone's on the way out there. Okay, just get the door open.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Oh, my god. Oh, my god. Okay.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  How old is she?

• 7:26Speaker 01

  She's twenty seven.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Twenty seven. And there's no sign of life at all?

• 7:31Speaker 01

  No, no, no, please, don't be, what?

• 7:34Speaker 03

  Benched under her arm and tell me she responds to pain.

• 7:37Speaker 01

  She's, Ellie, she's not, it's not her arm, her hands are still warm. I don't know what that means, but there's blood everywhere, I mean...

• 7:46Speaker 03

  I know, but you can't, and the knife is still inside of her. How far, can you see how far it went in?

• 7:50Speaker 01

  It looks pretty deep.

• 7:52Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  It looks three, and it's a long knife.

• 7:55Speaker 02

  Don't touch anything, sir.

• 7:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, don't touch anything, okay?

• 7:57Speaker 01

  I'm not touching anything. This is, I can't believe this, though.

• 8:00Speaker 03

  So, wait, it was just you there with her?

• 8:03Speaker 01

  We, yeah, we're the only ones here.

• 8:05Speaker 03

  And she ran in the door, you said, latched it shut?

• 8:07Speaker 01

  No, no, I, I, I went downstairs to work out, and I, when I came back up, the door was latched.

• 8:14Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 8:14Speaker 01

  Like, it was, you know, it wasn't like, you know, it was like locked from the inside, and I'm yelling, and I saw him, so I'm yelling and...

• 8:21Speaker 03

  Was your house broken into?

• 8:23Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  So, there's no sign of a break in?

• 8:26Speaker 01

  No, no sign of a break in at all. I mean, there will be when you get here, 'cause I had to break the latch, but, to get in.

• 8:33Speaker 03

  Okay, forty six zero one Flat Rock, and this is a house, right?

• 8:36Speaker 01

  It's an apartment. Flat Rock apartment.

• 8:39Speaker 03

  Okay, that'll help.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Oh, my god. Oh, my god. All right, thank you.

• 8:42Speaker 03

  Okay, mhm.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  Bye.

• 8:46Speaker 00

  According to an investigation report from the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office, when first responders arrive, they find Ellen in the kitchen, which is just inside the entrance of the apartment. Now, Sam told 911 that she was laying on her back, but apparently, she's more like sitting on the floor, kind of slumped against the lower kitchen cabinets. She's fully dressed in a zip-up hoodie, t-shirt, sweatpants, and UG boots. She's still holding a white towel in her left hand, and her right hand is closed in a loose fist. And just to the right of her, there's a pair of eyeglasses on the floor. There are rips and tears in her shirts that match up with multiple stab wounds on her chest.

• 9:28Speaker 00

  And like Sam said, a knife is still lodged in one of them, a little bit to the left of center of her chest. There's blood on her neck and head, on her hand, on her clothes, even on the tops of her boots, and on the sole of her right boot. It's clear to the paramedics and police that nothing can be done to save her. So Ellen is pronounced dead at the scene at 6:40 PM. When investigators take a closer look around, they notice that on the kitchen counter next to the sink, there's a knife set. You know, one of those blocks that comes with some utensils. And basically, it's turned on its side with two knives from the set spilled over into the sink. And based on the scene, it appears that at the time, right before Ellen died, she had

• 10:13Speaker 00

  been making a fruit salad. Because according to reporting by Stephanie Farr for the Philadelphia Inquirer, there's a strainer on the counter filled with like, blueberries and an orange, which seem to be freshly sliced.

• 10:25Speaker 04

  So she could have been handling the knives as well?

• 10:27Speaker 00

  Right. Now, there are a couple of drops of blood on the countertop above her body, but it doesn't look like there's any blood on the knives in the sink. In fact, the blood is pretty much contained to just that corner of the kitchen where she's like, slumped over. As investigators look around the two-bedroom apartment, they notice that everything is clean and well-kept. Nothing seems to be out of place, and it doesn't look like anything's been stolen, because there are still valuables in the Including three laptops, Ellen's purse and her engagement ring, which according to the family's P I. Tom Brennan, she wasn't wearing at the time. Homicide detectives from the Philadelphia Police Department don't see any signs of a struggle, not in the kitchen or anywhere else.

• 11:12Speaker 00

  According to the M E.'s report, the inside lock on the front door, which again is like a common latch door guard, is broken with the screws on the door loose. It says, quote, "obviously forced in when in a locked position," end quote.

• 11:26Speaker 04

  Which that would make sense because Sam already said that he had to force his way in, right?

• 11:30Speaker 00

  Right.

• 11:31Speaker 04

  So it's not like it's an intruder. It was just Sam trying to get into his place.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, and there's only one other way in or out of the apartment, and that's this sliding door that leads to a little balcony type thing. I mean, it's really more like a ledge with a railing because Ellen and Sam's apartment is on the sixth floor. So again, even though they have that, it's not likely someone got in that way. Plus, again, even if you have a Spider-Man like scaling the place, there was actually fresh snow outside. Remember, this is a blizzard. And so there's snow on the balcony ledge that hasn't been disturbed. But there's no tracks, there's no footprints, nothing. Now, back inside the apartment on a nightstand in the main bedroom, investigators find three medications prescribed to Ellen. They find Xanax, Klonopin, and Ambien, and they've all been prescribed by a psychiatrist named Ellen Berman.

• 12:20Speaker 00

  Police also find a notebook in Ellen's purse where she had to track her state of mind while taking the various medications. Now, the last entry is from 10 days earlier, although I'm not sure what it said because it's not in any of the reports. An investigator from the medical examiner's office gets to the apartment around 8:30 P. M., two hours after Ellen is pronounced dead. And he notices that she doesn't have any injuries on her hands or her wrists or her forearms.

• 12:49Speaker 04

  So basically, no defensive wounds.

• 12:51Speaker 00

  Right, nothing that looks like defensive wounds to them anyway.

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Okay, and obviously they called time of death at what you said, 6:40?

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 12:59Speaker 04

  But can they determine when she had actually died?

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Well, the report doesn't say anything about the potential time of death. But I mean, based on what Sam tells detectives, which is that he last saw Ellen alive at 4:45 before going to the gym. And then again, we know he's breaking down the door at 6:30. We're looking at like a small window of time.

• 13:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, like less than two hours.

• 13:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, and honestly, probably even less than that because you have to imagine, again, he was like banging on the door and texting her and calling her, he says, before then. So it could be even smaller than that. So, police want to know everything Ellen did leading up to that small window. And what they learn is that she had gotten home earlier than usual that day from her job as a first grade teacher. They had gotten off early because of the snow. Basically, the entire, like, Philadelphia Public School District had been dismissed around noon that day. And according to what Sam tells them, right there at the scene, when they first pull him aside to get his story, Ellen was home when he went down to the fitness center at around 4:45 PM. And he says that he stayed there for like, half hour or maybe 45 minutes, and then he went back upstairs where he found himself locked out.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  He tells investigators, you know, he knocked on the door, he called and texted her to let him in, but she didn't answer, and that's when he knocked down the door and called 911. Well, police had found Ellen's cellphone in the master bathroom. And so they decided to check her activity log to see if it matches Sam's story.

• 14:25Speaker 00

  Let's face it, if student loans are slowing down your financial goals, it might be time for a smarter strategy. That's where today's sponsor, SoFi, comes in. SoFi is helping you tackle student debt by refinancing your loans with flexible monthly payments that fit your budget. We're talking about the potential to lower your interest rate, reduce your monthly payment, or even pay off your loan sooner, depending on the term you choose. You can also consolidate your student loans into one simple monthly payment, so you could save more each month and work towards achieving your long-term financial ambitions. SoFi offers competitive, fixed and variable rates and no origination fees, prepayment fees, or late fees required. It takes just two minutes to check your rate with SoFi, and they have already helped over 500,000 members refinance more than $50 billion in student loans.

• 15:08Speaker 00

  Visit sofi.com/crimejunkie to see how much you can save. That's sofi.com/crimejunkie and start making smarter money moves with SoFi. SoFi student loans are originated by SoFi Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.

• 15:29Speaker 00

  Though she had sent her last text around 3:47 PM to a friend of hers, the police do see the incoming missed calls and texts from Sam, who sent her nine messages over a half hour, from 5:32 to 5:54 PM. They're actually detailed in the investigative report I mentioned. And Britt, I'm gonna have you read them for us.

• 15:51Speaker 04

  Okay, and they're each like these really short, one-line texts, but I'll just read them in order, okay? Hello? Open the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed. Hello? You better have an excuse. What the [bleep]? Ah! You have no idea.

• 16:13Speaker 00

  So, on its face, Sam's story seems to be checking out, at least in regard to him texting her. But police wanna talk to other people, namely Ellen's neighbors. Venice Lofts is generally a safe place to live. I mean, it has surveillance cameras, there's a security guard in the lobby by the main entrance, and residents use a key card system. Neighbors of the couple tell police that they didn't hear any commotion that day, no loud noises, no arguments, nothing. So, when looking at all of this, this is what investigators see. Ellen has no defensive wounds, and she was reportedly alone in the apartment with the door locked from the inside.

• 16:56Speaker 00

  So, by that very night, police come to their conclusion. Ellen died by suicide.

• 17:02Speaker 04

  Wait, has the medical examiner even done an autopsy at this point? I mean, I at least have not heard of any suicides where the person has multiple stab wounds.

• 17:11Speaker 00

  No, so the autopsy has not been conducted at this point.

• 17:15Speaker 04

  So, did they find a note or anything that made them like double down on this whole suicide theory?

• 17:20Speaker 00

  Nope, there was no note. And at this point, it seems like all police know is that Ellen had been prescribed anti-anxiety medications. But, again, I don't know what that journal of hers said, if it had something in it that made them kind of like go down this path. I don't know what specifically Sam told police. About Ellen's state of mind in this day or leading up to it. But what I know is that based on the medical examiner's report, Sam did stay at the scene with some of his family members and friends after finding Ellen. And at some point, police do take him down to the station for a more formal interview, which, by the way, he has a criminal defense attorney with him while he gives a statement.

• 18:00Speaker 00

  And it's around that time that Sam's dad calls Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg. And as Sandy told us, this is the moment their entire world went dark.

• 18:14Speaker 05

  He said, "Something terrible has happened to Ellie." And I said, "Well, what do you mean?" He says, "Well, we don't know." I said, "Well, where's the ambulance?" And there's a long pause, and I was trying to find my voice because Josh wasn't standing right next to me. He was, you know, in another room. And I'm like, "Josh, pick up the phone, pick up the phone, pick up the phone." And they said, "There is no ambulance." And I still didn't register with me. "We really didn't even know what happened, other than they're telling us our child is gone."

• 18:51Speaker 00

  As if the death of your only child is not heartbreaking enough, Ellen's parents can't even get to their daughter that night. It is snowing too hard for them to make the two-hour drive to Philadelphia from where they are in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Early the next morning, this is now January 27th, Josh and Sandy speak with the medical examiner's office over the phone. Sandy tells investigators that she last spoke with Ellen yesterday at around 7:00 a.m. And Ellen was on her way to work. They had a normal conversation. And Ellen didn't give the impression that anything was wrong. But Sandy and Josh also say that they knew their daughter was struggling with something. Recently, Ellen had been feeling anxious.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  She'd been feeling insecure and unsure of herself, which was not at all like the bright, hardworking young woman her family knew her to be.

• 19:43Speaker 06

  I didn't know what was wrong with my daughter. I did know something was different.

• 19:47Speaker 00

  Not long before her death, Ellen had told her parents that she wanted to go home to Harrisburg.

• 19:53Speaker 04

  Like, for a visit or something more permanent, like moving back?

• 19:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, that isn't totally clear, but she did tell her parents that her wanting to come home had nothing to do with Sam. She actually said it was because of work. And Ellen had been teaching for a few years at this point. And as much as she loved the kids, she said that she just wasn't happy at the school. She was stressed out, she was overwhelmed, which I know enough teachers to know that the way they're treated is a true crime story in its own right. So, yeah, I get it.

• 20:23Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  Now, Ellen's parents didn't want her to just up and leave her first big, real job. Her dad was worried that it would mess up her future career prospects. So Ellen made a deal with them and agreed to see a psychiatrist, that Dr. Berman, before making any major decisions. And they figured, you know, this way, whatever she ends up doing, she will at least have talked it out with someone and like really given it some serious thought.

• 20:49Speaker 04

  So if she moved, though, what would that mean for her and Sam? Like, was she planning on leaving him?

• 20:55Speaker 00

  No, like I said, she said that this was all work-related. So despite telling her parents that she wanted to go back to Harrisburg, there's no indication that Ellen was planning to call off her wedding. I mean, it was still set for that upcoming August. Literally, I mean, save the date cards had gone out in the mail days before this incident. And Ellen had her wedding dress and everything. Ellen's parents tell the medical examiner's office that the relationship between Ellen and Sam seemed good to them. They had no concerns. They didn't know of any physical or verbal abuse. I mean, Ellen certainly had never mentioned anything to them. And Josh and Sandy had even taken the couple on vacation to St. Kitts just a month earlier in December 2010. And as the medical examiner's report goes on to say,

• 21:38Speaker 00

  Josh and Sandy said that as far as they know, Ellen had never attempted to take her own life and had never even expressed any thoughts of making that decision. Although, even though that's in the report, Sandy says that now she doesn't remember the topic of dying by suicide even coming up during this conversation.

• 21:56Speaker 06

  To say this was out of left field and unexpected would be a gross understatement.

• 22:01Speaker 00

  But it's about to get even more bizarre. Dr. Marlon Osborne, an associate medical examiner, starts Ellen's autopsy at around 9:00 a.m. that day. And what he finds changes the course of the investigation. As he's conducting the autopsy, Dr. Osborne sees that she doesn't just have multiple stab wounds on her chest. According to the autopsy report, there are 10 more stab wounds on the back of her neck, another in her abdomen, and a big gash on the back of her head.

• 22:35Speaker 04

  Wait, and no one at the scene saw any of the wounds to the back of her body? What?

• 22:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it appears that way because there's no mention of them in the initial scene report. Now, some of the wounds are shallow, like really shallow, just 0.2 centimeters deep, which for comparison is basically the size of like a pencil point. And that actually includes most of the wounds on the back of her neck, but others are much deeper. The final blow, the one that actually killed her, was the stab wound to Ellen's chest, where the knife is still embedded four inches deep. Altogether, Dr. Osborne finds 19 stab wounds and the large gash. And here's what's extra interesting. The knife in Ellen's chest has a five-inch serrated blade with a five-inch handle, and

• 23:25Speaker 00

  it's from the knife set in their kitchen. And that's super confusing to me because in the autopsy report, Dr. Osborne describes all of the wounds, even the final blow, as having smooth edges.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  What?

• 23:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, but there's something else the doctor notices during the autopsy, mostly because they're impossible to miss. There are a bunch of bruises on Ellen's body, on her arms and her legs and her wrists, her abdomen, and they're all in different stages of healing.

• 23:56Speaker 04

  So that means that the bruises aren't from just the time she died?

• 24:01Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:02Speaker 04

  They're from a bunch of different times, like over the course of days or weeks?

• 24:06Speaker 00

  Exactly. The ME finishes up the autopsy at around 11:00 a.m. and he makes his ruling. Ellen's death is a homicide. And this is probably not welcome news to the police. Because as court records show, they had already allowed the crime scene to be compromised beyond repair.

• 24:29Speaker 00

  Let's face it, if student loans are slowing down your financial goals, it might be time for a smarter strategy. That's where today's sponsor SoFi comes in. SoFi is helping you tackle student debt by refinancing your loans with flexible monthly payments that fit your budget. We're talking about the potential to lower your interest rate, reduce your monthly payment, or even pay off your loan sooner, depending on the term you choose. You can also consolidate your student loans into one simple monthly payment, so you could save more each month and work towards achieving your long-term financial ambitions. SoFi offers competitive fixed and variable rates and no origination fees, prepayment fees, or late fees required. It takes just two minutes to check your rate with SoFi, and they have already helped over 500,000 members refinance more than $50 billion in student loans.

• 25:13Speaker 00

  Visit sofi.com/crimejunkie to see how much you can save. That's sofi.com/crimejunkie and start making smarter money moves with SoFi. SoFi's student loans are originated by SoFi Bank, N.A., member FDIC. Additional terms and conditions apply. NMLS 696891.

• 25:34Speaker 00

  You see, the same day as the autopsy, a relative of Sam's had called the Venice Lofts property manager and asked if they could go inside the apartment and get some stuff for Sam for Ellen's funeral, you know, like clothes, photos, things like that. According to a statement from the property manager, she checked with police to make sure that this would be okay. And they basically told her, well, there aren't any restrictions. It's not a crime scene, so yeah, it's fine, do whatever.

• 26:00Speaker 04

  What?

• 26:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, but the property manager like pushes back a little, like-

• 26:04Speaker 04

  Like, are you sure?

• 26:06Speaker 00

  Even to the point where she's like, it didn't seem right to have people in there when there was literally still blood all over the kitchen.

• 26:11Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 26:11Speaker 00

  So she asked police, like, what do I do about that? And they told her that, you know, that's not our department's responsibility. Like, basically, people have to handle cleaning up crime scenes on their own, so they recommended a cleaning service called Crime Scene Cleanup.

• 26:24Speaker 04

  Pretty straightforward, cool.

• 26:26Speaker 00

  Before letting anyone in, the property manager had a video recording made of the apartment, like basically the condition it was in as like legal protection for Venice lofts against claims of stolen items or damage. Then she booked the service, which sent people to do what they're hired to do. They cleaned up a crime scene. And when they were done, the property manager told Sam's relatives they could come in. Here's Sandy Greenberg again.

• 26:52Speaker 05

  Sam's cousin and uncle went back into the apartment and they removed Ellen's engagement ring, her handbag, her car keys, her two computers, her cellphone.

• 27:06Speaker 04

  What? Why were they allowed to take all of Ellen's stuff?

• 27:09Speaker 00

  Well, so the property manager is in the apartment when Sam's relatives are there, but even if she knew what they were taking, which I don't even know if she did, I don't think she could have done anything. Like, there are no police there saying like, hey, don't let them take stuff. Like, they specifically knew they were coming in.

• 27:23Speaker 04

  Well, and assuming like, these are Sam's relatives, he sent them maybe with a list?

• 27:27Speaker 00

  Like, yeah.

• 27:28Speaker 04

  They're in getting what they're supposed to get.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, and she's the property manager.

• 27:32Speaker 04

  Why argue?

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, she, like, this isn't her job to, like, worry about this. She's just making sure nothing happens to the apartment. So according to CBS Philadelphia, when police realize that they're dealing with a homicide, they get a search warrant and go back to the apartment to look for evidence on Friday, January 28th. But by that point, I mean, they're looking over a crime scene that was literally professionally cleaned and sanitized. And items that could be really important have been removed by the family of the victim's fiance.

• 28:01Speaker 04

  I mean, yeah, they're practically looking at like a model apartment right now.

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Now, January 28th also happens to be the day of Ellen's funeral and Sam's birthday. Ellen's family is Jewish, and traditionally in the Jewish faith, burials take place as soon as possible after a death. Her service is held at Beth El Temple Sanctuary in Harrisburg. Ellen's cousin, Brett Schwab, told us that he will never forget that day.

• 28:28Speaker 07

  During the funeral, Ellen's father made a speech and announced to the audience that, for those who haven't heard, the Philadelphia police just determined that the manner of death was in fact a homicide. It was like hushed whispers and everyone staring wide-eyed at each other, unsure what to say.

• 28:48Speaker 00

  After the funeral, everyone goes back to Ellen's grandmother's home. And it seems like, based on everything our reporter Nina learned from interviewing the family, this is where the relationship between Ellen's parents and Sam and his family starts to really fracture. At one point, Josh, her dad, says to Sam, "You do realize that you're the prime suspect."

• 29:12Speaker 03

  What was Sam's reaction when Josh said to him, "You know, you're the prime suspect"? He started crying. He was in one corner of the room, and he moved over to his mother, and she's comforting

• 29:25Speaker 00

  him, and he's carrying on. After that exchange, the Goldberg's don't join Josh and Sandy to sit shiva, which is a Jewish tradition that takes place after the funeral, when the family stays home and people visit and comfort them. But the shiva for Ellen hasn't even started before police start to downplay the medical examiner's homicide determination. The day after the funeral, a lieutenant tells the Philadelphia Inquirer that evidence had surfaced, which made suicide more likely, and that detectives are looking into some, quote, "mental issues" that Ellen may have had.

• 30:01Speaker 04

  What is he even talking about? And, I mean, don't even get me started on the incredibly insensitive way to speak about someone who might have been struggling with their own mental health.

• 30:10Speaker 00

  He doesn't say specifically what he's talking about that's leading him to this conclusion. What I do know from a police report is that, on that same day, Saturday, Sam's uncle, James, who at the time was a prominent Philadelphia attorney, brought detectives the laptops and cellphone that they had taken from the condo. And by this time, investigators had spoken to Ellen's psychiatrist, Dr. Berman, and they'd subpoenaed her treatment records. But Dr. Berman told investigators that Ellen was a new patient who had come in for, like, three recent sessions after dealing with severe anxiety for a couple of months. And Ellen had told Dr. Berman that she was having trouble at work. She was feeling pressured. She was feeling overwhelmed, but she wasn't having thoughts of taking her own life.

• 30:55Speaker 00

  And in those sessions, Ellen had never said anything bad about Sam. She told Dr. Berman that he was wonderful. And the psychiatrist noted that Ellen smiled when she talked about him. Ellen also had denied that Sam was verbally or physically abusive. The psychiatrist prescribed Ellen medication, which she was kind of uneasy about taking. She first tried Zoloft and then switched to a low dose of Xanax. And when those didn't work, Dr. Berman put her on Ambien and Klonopin to just help her get some sleep. A few weeks after her death in February, Ellen's toxicology report comes back showing that she did have low doses of Klonopin and trace amounts of Ambien in her system, just like she was supposed to.

• 31:37Speaker 00

  And the toxicology didn't show any signs of the Xanax or the Zoloft, so she wasn't mixing medications or over-medicating. But when investigators look into the medications that were in her system, both do list suicidal thoughts and behaviors as potential side effects, which only bolsters the police's theory that Ellen did this to herself. And they think that even more when some of the physical evidence comes back. According to an article on penlive.com, "An analysis of the blood stains on the knife and Ellen's clothing only turn up her DNA."

• 32:13Speaker 04

  Okay, but none of that explains how Ellen could have stabbed herself in the back of the neck and head so many times.

• 32:20Speaker 00

  So I guess the theory is that she just reached around and did it? I mean, I haven't seen anything showing that the angles of Ellen's wounds are like 100% physically impossible for a person to self-inflict. But the angles aren't even really the main issue. Dr. Osborne noted during the autopsy that there was a cut to Ellen's dura, which is the protective covering around the spinal cord. What he wasn't sure of is whether Ellen's spinal cord itself had been injured, which is obviously a huge deal because if the spinal cord was injured by the stab wounds to the back of Ellen's neck, The question becomes, would she have been able to keep stabbing herself?

• 33:00Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 33:00Speaker 00

  If she was incapacitated, then obviously someone else delivered that final blow to her chest.

• 33:06Speaker 04

  Yeah, I hadn't even considered that. So what did the police do with that information?

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Well, according to the reporting by Stephanie Farr, detectives suggest hiring an outside neuropathologist to look at a portion of Ellen's spinal cord and figure out the answers to those questions. So Dr. Osborne takes the spinal cord to Dr. Lucy Rourke Adams, a consultant for the medical examiner's office. And Dr. Osborne says that Dr. Rourke Adams does a quick examination, basically an informal thing, like, you know, one doctor saying to another, hey, look at this and tell me what you think.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  Like, I would ask a coworker to proofread an email for me.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:40Speaker 04

  I mean, if this is such an important part of the case, why didn't they have her do like a more formal, thorough, official exam?

• 33:48Speaker 00

  Well, Dr. Osborne says that he leaves the decision of what further testing needs to be done to the consultants. So basically, he's saying like, if Dr. Rourke Adams didn't suggest further testing, like, that would be it. Like, he was gonna show her, and then she can decide, can I tell on the spot? Do I need more?

• 34:04Speaker 04

  Right. Like, she would look at it and be like, no, there's gonna be an issue. I should do something more. Or it's not a big deal. Let it go.

• 34:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. And ultimately, he says that Dr. Rourke Adams did not find any defect of the spinal cord. He says that she does confirm that the dura was cut, and while it's possible Ellen would have decreased sensation, she wouldn't necessarily lose her motor function.

• 34:27Speaker 04

  So she would have or could have been like numb, but still able to move around and step herself again?

• 34:35Speaker 00

  Potentially, yeah. I mean, that's what Dr. Osborne says was relayed to him by Dr. Rourke Adams. Now, according to the Philadelphia Daily News, it's rare that the police department disagrees with the medical examiner's office about someone's manner of death. And not long after Dr. Osborne's visit to Dr. Rourke Adams, a meeting is held in his office to discuss Ellen's case. Two police officers are there, along with Dr. Osborne, the chief medical examiner, Sam Galino, and a representative from the Philadelphia- A district attorney's office. We don't know when exactly this meeting took place because according to court records, both doctors, Galino and Osborne, say they don't remember. Dr. Galino says that he's not sure who called the meeting, but it wasn't him.

• 35:20Speaker 00

  Dr. Osborne says he thinks Dr. Galino called it, and it doesn't seem to be officially documented anywhere. The circumstances are just odd around this. And the reason for the meeting is even weirder. It seems that this group was brought together in an effort to change Ellen's manner of death from homicide to suicide. What's even stranger is that Dr. Osborne says that up until that point, he had never met with the police and the DA's office to talk about changing someone's manner of death from homicide to suicide. In this meeting, police say that they have something interesting to share, which they

• 36:04Speaker 00

  say helps prove Ellen's death has to be suicide. They tell Dr. Osborne that someone else was with Sam Goldberg when he forced the door open and found Ellen dead in the kitchen. On the night of Ellen's death, a man named Phil was on duty as a security guard in the lobby of the Venice Lofts. And according to police, when Sam couldn't get into the condo, he went downstairs and got Phil, and Phil went back upstairs with him, and he was there when Sam broke in.

• 36:34Speaker 04

  And how do police know this? Like, did Sam tell them this information that night, or did he tell them later?

• 36:40Speaker 00

  So it's not totally clear because we don't have access to any of Sam's verbatim statements. But all we know is at some point, Sam told police that Phil was with him when he found Ellen. Again, I don't know if it's right there at the scene that night. I don't know if it's later at the police station or what.

• 36:56Speaker 04

  But the information got conveyed to police at some point.

• 36:58Speaker 00

  Yeah, and we know that through these records about this meeting. But to detectives, this backs up Sam's story that Ellen was alone in a locked apartment at the time she was stabbed. Now, I don't know if Dr. Osborne knew about that third-party witness being present before this meeting with investigators. There's no- Mention about this Phil guy in their earlier report from the medical examiner's office. So again, I would assume not, but I don't know for sure. But within a week or so of this meeting, in early March 2011, Dr. Osborne notifies the police department that he is now declaring Ellen's manner of death. A suicide.

• 37:35Speaker 04

  I guess I just don't understand, like, the evidence. Her body, what you as a medical examiner are supposed to be going off of, told you it was murder. How can you just change that based on some circumstantial stuff around her case, brought to you by the police who, this isn't their job. It's your job to determine it.

• 37:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, like you said, I feel like the most honest answer is the one that you came to without any outside influence. But I mean, I have heard that it's not just an autopsy that determines the manner of death. Like, for instance, if a person is found with a gunshot wound to the head, like, you might need the police investigation to find out if it's a homicide or suicide. But I'm not an ME, I don't know.

• 38:14Speaker 04

  But there was already a ruling and then the police were like,

• 38:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:17Speaker 04

  But what about this? And slid something across the table.

• 38:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:21Speaker 04

  Oh, I don't like this.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  Now, for many of the people following Ellen's story, that's that. Another tragedy in a city that's seen plenty of them. But for the Greenbergs, who, by the way, find out about this ruling being changed to suicide through media reports?

• 38:38Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 38:39Speaker 00

  For them, this is just the beginning. Because after their daughter's death, the Greenbergs start hearing some disturbing things. Like, maybe Sam and Ellen didn't have such a perfect relationship after all.

• 38:53Speaker 06

  Over time, her friends told me that her relationship had changed with Sam. Ellen, do you want to go have Chinese food tomorrow night? Let me talk to Sam. Ellen, do you want to go out tomorrow and see, uh, go to a basketball game? Let me talk to Sam. In other words, Sam was in control.

• 39:12Speaker 00

  And that wasn't like the Ellen her parents knew. Josh and Sandy had always admired how confident and gutsy their daughter was.

• 39:22Speaker 06

  Ellen was a leader and she accomplished things.

• 39:25Speaker 05

  She got two master's degrees while she was working all that time.

• 39:29Speaker 00

  Ellen met Sam, a TV producer for NBC Sports, on a blind date back in 2007. They were set up by a friend's mother and Ellen's family says that she was head over heels for him. They moved in together after a couple of years of dating and when Sam proposed to Ellen in June 2010, she was thrilled. As far as Josh and Sandy knew, Ellen was happy with Sam. But now they wondered what was real and they started thinking, what if Ellen was just using her job as an excuse for her anxiety? A reason to come home. They were also faced with what they perceived to be strange behavior by Sam and his family after Ellen's death. They don't know why Sam's uncle took Ellen's personal belongings out of the apartment.

• 40:13Speaker 00

  According to Tom, the family's P I., the claim was that they had taken the stuff for, quote, "safekeeping", but Sam's family didn't give Ellen's belongings to Josh and Sandy at the funeral or even mention that they had them. And the day after the funeral is when Sam's uncle brought the laptops to police. And when the Greenbergs do finally get their daughter's stuff back, they find something in Ellen's purse that catches their attention. It's a gas station receipt from the day Ellen died, literally hours before at 1:26 P M. And so they wonder, why would Ellen bother topping off her gas tank if she planned to take her own life just a few hours later?

• 40:55Speaker 00

  Now Ellen had been telling everyone that she was stressed and anxious because of work and in fact, teachers were supposed to turn in their students' grades on the very day she died.

• 41:04Speaker 04

  Oh, so she was like on deadline too?

• 41:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, but when a new teacher takes over Ellen's first grade class, she apparently finds everything in perfect order. Like lesson plans are ready to go, records are super organized, which again, doesn't mean that Ellen didn't feel overwhelmed or anxious at work, but she seemed to be on top of everything.

• 41:23Speaker 04

  Okay, but Ellen might not have been planning to do anything when she gassed up her car. I mean, choosing to take your own life can be a really impulsive decision. And with the organized schoolwork, just because she completed it doesn't mean that it didn't stress her out to do it. I mean, I get like that all the time. Or maybe it was just one more sign that she was getting her affairs in order, making sure, you know, nothing was left undone for her kids. It could really go either way.

• 41:48Speaker 00

  Yes, either way is absolutely possible. But as time passes, Ellen's parents uncover more details that they think called the suicide ruling into serious question. There are just too many loose ends, too many things that don't make sense to them. So the Greenbergs decide that if authorities won't help them get to the bottom of things, they're gonna start their own investigation.

• 42:12Speaker 05

  I didn't have it easy in the beginning. I had a very rough time. But once I made up my mind that I want my daughter's name cleared and I need to, I'd really like to know what happened.

• 42:26Speaker 00

  Eventually, Ellen's parents get copies of the autopsy, crime scene photos, and the Emmys investigation report, which they send to a well-known forensic pathologist, this guy named Cyril Wecht, for an independent review. Dr. Wecht shares his findings with the family in January 2012, a year after Ellen's death. In his report, he notes that the multiple stab wounds to the back of Ellen's neck and the lower head were not likely self-inflicted, especially the ones that were in different directions. He also says that victims of suicide rarely stab themselves through their clothes. Overall, his opinion is that Ellen's manner of death is, quote, "strongly suspicious of

• 43:11Speaker 00

  homicide," end quote. So finally, a professional is validating what Josh and Sandy had been thinking all along. And the Greenbergs are hoping that Dr. Wecht's report can help get Ellen's case reopened. So they hire a lawyer to help them move things along. And that spring, they get a meeting with the Philadelphia DA's office, but unfortunately, nothing Eventually, that lawyer stops representing them and another lawyer joins their cause, Walter Cohen, a former attorney general in Pennsylvania who takes the case pro bono. Their P I., Tom Brennan, who has 25-plus years of law enforcement expertise under his belt, also offers his service for free. And it's Tom who raises the theory that Ellen might have been killed in what's known as

• 43:56Speaker 00

  a blitz attack. That's when a victim is caught by surprise and doesn't have time to defend themselves, which Tom says would explain Ellen's lack of defensive wounds. So with their help, Josh and Sandy file a public records request for the police case file. But even though the case is considered closed, Tom says police won't release the records. Instead, the Greenbergs are allowed to go look at some records in the department, but they can't make copies, they can't take photos, and truthfully, they don't even really know what they're looking for. Over the next few years, they hit roadblock after roadblock. And then in 2015, a Philadelphia homicide prosecutor named Guy DeAndrea agrees to take

• 44:38Speaker 00

  a look at Ellen's case file after an acquaintance brings it to his attention. Guy is in a unique position because he seems to be the only person who's seen everything in the case file and is willing to speak publicly about it. Even though the case was never officially assigned to him, he actually went through the evidence thoroughly. And here's Guy from a Facebook Live Q and A that he did about Ellen's case.

• 45:03Speaker 07

  I can tell you from my experience as a homicide prosecutor, it wasn't treated with the level that an investigation would be treated if viewed by the authorities as a homicide on scene. Why it wasn't with upwards of 20 stab wounds and a laceration to the head, I don't have a good answer for that.

• 45:24Speaker 00

  We have a link to that Facebook Live video on our blog post for this episode, but I want to go over a few points that he mentioned. So Guy saw the surveillance footage from Venice Lofts, which show the lobby and it shows the corridor leading to the gym. The only people who came and went around the time of Ellen's death were other residents of the building, no strangers. Video footage in Sam's key fob records verify that Sam got to the fitness center around 5:00 PM that day and was there for about 30 minutes before going back up to the apartment. There's only surveillance in the common area, so no one can see what happens in the sixth floor hallway. But there is footage showing Sam when he goes back down to speak with Phil, the security guard at the front desk.

• 46:08Speaker 04

  And that's the guy that Sam said he was with when he forced the door open and found Ellen, right?

• 46:13Speaker 00

  Yes, but there is one problem, like a big problem. Sam's story is not true.

• 46:22Speaker 04

  What?

• 46:23Speaker 00

  According to Phil, when Sam went downstairs, he did ask Phil for help getting into his apartment, but Phil said he repeatedly told Sam he couldn't help him. Like it's against company policy, like not going to happen. Sam even told Phil that he might force or kick the door in and Phil warned him that, okay, you can do that, but you're going to be responsible for any damage that you cause. And then Sam went back upstairs by himself.

• 46:48Speaker 04

  I don't get it. What's the point of saying that Phil was with you if he wasn't?

• 46:52Speaker 00

  I don't know. In a declaration he gave, Phil says that he never accompanied Sam upstairs, not for one single minute. The only time Phil went upstairs was later with first responders, but not with Sam. So no one was with Sam when he found Ellen.

• 47:08Speaker 04

  And did Phil ever talk to the police about this?

• 47:12Speaker 00

  He did, and here's what he told them, according to Guy.

• 47:15Speaker 07

  He conclusively stated in his signed statement to Philadelphia homicide detectives that he did not go upstairs. In other words, he was not there when the door was, when entry was made into the apartment.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  So why would police corroborate Sam's story of a witness when they spoke to Dr. Osborne during that like come to Jesus meeting back in 2011?

• 47:37Speaker 00

  I have no clue. I mean, the evidence is irrefutable. Phil's statement is backed up by surveillance video, which shows Sam getting on the elevator to go back upstairs by himself.

• 47:47Speaker 04

  And so if that's what you used to help convince Emmy that it was a suicide, like, what the [bleep]?

• 47:54Speaker 00

  I actually want to stay on the topic of the door lock for a minute. So remember the interior lock is like a huge reason that police were so quick to call it a suicide? And Guy basically says he was told the same thing. So he was picturing like this heavy duty deadbolt lock, like the type he remembers from his own childhood home. But then when he sees photos of the lock, it's not exactly what he was expecting.

• 48:17Speaker 07

  I did a quick Google search, or really a YouTube search, on is it possible to open or lock or unlock a, one of those sliding hotel? That's really what it is, a hotel locking mechanism. Within seconds, there's dozens of videos on how to do that, using a credit card, a hanger, a piece of gum, sticking the lock sort of halfway open, halfway closed, and slamming the door shut as hard as possible. In other words, there's so many different ways to lock that door from the outside.

• 48:41Speaker 00

  Plus, Guy notices something else. The lock wasn't that badly damaged, considering Sam said that he forced his way in. There's some damage, don't get me wrong, but it was still intact and attached to the door.

• 48:56Speaker 04

  Oh, it's almost like it was pushed in and loosened enough that you could maybe unlock it without breaking it or doing anything else?

• 49:04Speaker 00

  I have no idea. I don't even know if Guy knows what it means. It's just not what he, I think, was expecting to see.

• 49:10Speaker 04

  Right.

• 49:10Speaker 00

  Basically, Guy just, he sees significant flaws in the way that this case was handled and how the crime scene was interpreted. And Guy isn't the only one who's seeing this stuff.

• 49:25Speaker 00

  Over the next few years, Tom, the P I. for the Greenbergs, brings a bunch of forensic pathologists on board, starting with Dr. Wayne Ross. Dr. Ross examines a piece of Ellen's spinal cord, which surprisingly, the medical examiner's office still had. And in early 2017, he concludes that her cranial cavity had been punctured. According to the Oxygen Network, which profiled Ellen's case for an episode of accident, suicide, or murder, Dr. Ross says that injury would have likely rendered her unconscious, which clearly would have prevented her from stabbing herself again. Dr. Ross also says that there's evidence Ellen was strangled.

• 50:08Speaker 04

  What? And this is in 2017? Like, why is this the first time we're hearing about a strangulation?

• 50:14Speaker 00

  Well, as far as I can tell, it's the first time it comes up. In his report, Dr. Ross says that a mark on the front of Ellen's neck looks like it could have come from a fingernail. And there are multiple bruises under and on the side of her neck. He also says that the bruises on Ellen's body are consistent with a repeated beating. So all in all, Dr. Ross concludes that all of the evidence points to homicide. Another expert weighs in a few months later, a detective who specializes in crime scene reconstruction. And he says blood pattern evidence suggests that Ellen's body was moved or repositioned after she died. Now, remember, she was found sitting upright.

• 50:58Speaker 00

  But photos from the scene show this like trail of blood running horizontally across her face and like back towards her ear, which is, quote, "against the law of gravity," end quote.

• 51:12Speaker 04

  Right, and that might explain why Sam, in the 911 call, initially said that Ellen was on her back. Then, when police get there, she's more, like you said, sitting up, slumped against the lower kitchen cabinets.

• 51:24Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:24Speaker 04

  Do we know if Sam ever mentioned touching Ellen's body before the police arrived?

• 51:29Speaker 00

  We don't know. But according to Stephanie Farr's reporting, police had a theory that... Her body was never moved. Like, that's what they've been working off this whole time, that she stabbed herself while she was standing and then just slid to the floor. So if Sam did move her, I don't think he ever told that to police, or it never got, like, incorporated into their working theory. And, look, we could probably do 10 episodes just on these forensic reports. You can actually find links to all of the ones I mentioned, plus others on our website. But just to simplify, what it comes down to is every expert the Greenbergs consult with says that Ellen's death is not a suicide. In late 2017, the Greenbergs' former lawyer, this guy Larry Krasner, is elected Philadelphia District

• 52:13Speaker 00

  Attorney. Now, he had pushed for the DA's office to reopen Ellen's case. So, in order to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest, he turns it over to the state Attorney General's office. Another year passes, as Josh and Sandy wait to hear more about that investigation. And when they finally do, it's not the answer they expect, or want. The Attorney General's office tells Stephanie Farr that additional evidence was found which supports the suicide ruling. The office says that texts between Ellen and her mom shortly before her death show that Ellen was in serious mental distress, and that an examination

• 52:53Speaker 00

  of Ellen's computer shows suicide-related searches from December 18, 2010, through January 10, 2011, including painless suicide and methods of suicide. Which is strange, because the investigation report from 2011 specifies that nothing related to suicide was ever found on either of Ellen's laptops. And there was no computer analysis report in the DA's file. But the Attorney General's office says that they got the results directly from the computer forensic lab that originally tested it. And they say they're not sure if any police or prosecutors had ever even seen the analysis. Plus, as Guy points out

• 53:33Speaker 00

  in his Facebook Live video, the chain of command was broken when it came to the computers. Like, so the question is, is this even relevant? Because, remember, Sam's family took them out of the apartment. And had them for a couple of days after Ellen died before police ever got to analyze them.

• 53:49Speaker 04

  Right.

• 53:50Speaker 00

  And speaking of Guy and things that aren't in the DA's file, remember Dr. Rourke Adams?

• 53:56Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, she was the one who Dr. Osborne casually consulted with about Ellen's spinal cord, right?

• 54:02Speaker 00

  Right. Well, when Guy was looking through Ellen's file, he couldn't find a neuropathology report. And since this opinion from Dr. Rourke Adams was such a big part of the suicide ruling, he really wanted to see it. When he asked police and the medical examiner for a copy, he was told it couldn't be found or maybe didn't exist? Because there wasn't even an invoice for the work that she supposedly did. The Philadelphia Inquirer asked Dr. Rourke Adams about it, and she says that she has no recollection of the case and that since there's no report and no bill for her services, she probably never saw the spinal cord, although there is a, quote, "remote possibility," end quote, that she did.

• 54:46Speaker 04

  Okay, all of this is just bananas, Ashley.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Tell me about it. By this time, it's been more than nine years since Ellen's death, and the Greenbergs have now another lawyer representing them, a man named Joe Pedraza. In June of 2019, Joe takes everything that they've gathered over the years and lays out the findings in letters to the original MEs on the case, Doctors Galino and Osborne, asking them to change the manner of death back to homicide or, at the very least, undetermined. Joe even says that there's forensic evidence that shows that two knives were used in the stabbing, one serrated and one smooth-blade, based on how Dr. Osborne described the wounds as having smooth edges.

• 55:34Speaker 00

  But still, nothing happens. And for Josh and Sandy, that's the last straw. A few months later, they file a lawsuit against the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office and Dr. Osborne, seeking to have Ellen's manner of death changed from suicide to homicide or undetermined. In its response- To the lawsuit, the city of Philadelphia says that the Greenbergs have no legal standing for the case. The medical examiner can't be forced to change their opinion, which the law protects. There's no requirement that a medical examiner convince the public that their findings are accurate, and there's no requirement that they change a decision just because other forensic professionals don't agree with them.

• 56:15Speaker 04

  I'm sorry, I have to interrupt. But they already did? What?

• 56:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, but like for the police, not the public. I don't, I don't know. It doesn't really make sense.

• 56:22Speaker 04

  It just, sorry, like, I'm just like, they already did this, though, so why can't they just do it again? I don't know. Sorry.

• 56:27Speaker 00

  I think, I think they can, so they could at any time, but like-

• 56:30Speaker 04

  They can be forced to, right.

• 56:32Speaker 00

  Now, the city also says that the Greenberg's lawyers have misrepresented statements from Dr. Osborne and other medical professionals to fit the homicide manner of death ruling that they want. And Dr. Osborne lays out and defends his reasoning for changing the ruling from homicide to suicide. To him, it wasn't just pressure. He says it was facts that persuaded him. He mentions the spinal cord evaluation by Dr. Rourke Adams, which leaves open the possibility that Ellen would still be able to stab herself. He says there's the lack of defensive wounds and the fact that some of the injuries are really shallow, which could be what's known as hesitation wounds, like tentative cuts a person makes when they're like testing out what it feels like. And he says there are the statements from Sam and the busted door lock that support

• 57:17Speaker 00

  his story. The witness, who apparently saw him do it. No signs of a struggle. Nothing was stolen.

• 57:23Speaker 04

  Okay, but we know that some of that stuff isn't even true. I mean, the part about Sam having a witness isn't true. Other stuff is really shaky, like the doctor's spinal cord evaluation.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, listen, the Greenbergs have a lot of people in their corner who agree. There is a Justice for Ellen Facebook page that has more than 26,000 followers and a petition on change.org to have the Attorney General reopen her case. And that petition has more than 43,000 signatures, but listen, I've seen what crime junkies can do. You could easily add a couple hundred thousand to that. Again, link is right in the show notes. It takes two seconds. You can fill it out while you keep listening. And legal- Proceedings are literally underway as we speak. And because of that, there have been a bunch of recent developments. For instance, the Greenbergs' lawyer got his own expert to examine Ellen's computer.

• 58:17Speaker 00

  And they apparently found that the suicide-related search links were actually not direct searches.

• 58:23Speaker 04

  What do you mean?

• 58:25Speaker 00

  Well, Josh says that they were phantom searches that came up based on other stuff Ellen was looking for, like side effects of the medication she was taking.

• 58:33Speaker 04

  Okay, so like when you go to search, like, I don't know, crime junkie podcasts on Google, it will autofill search options beneath it for crime junkie merch, crime scenes, crime junkie fan club, stuff like that.

• 58:44Speaker 00

  Right, exactly. Also, just last May, a pathologist named Lindsay Emery gave a deposition describing how Dr. Galino asked her to examine Ellen's spinal cord after she started working at the medical examiner's office. Dr. Emery said that at least one of the injuries had no hemorrhage or vital response, which usually means that the person had no pulse when they were injured.

• 59:07Speaker 04

  What do you mean they had no pulse when they were injured, Ashley? What?

• 59:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, so basically, it's possible that Ellen was already dead for some of the stab wounds that she endured.

• 59:17Speaker 04

  So she couldn't have done them.

• 59:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, but Dr. Emery also said it is possible that hemorrhage was washed away during the autopsy, so she couldn't draw any firm conclusions about the manner of death. She said that she would need more information. But that's the major issue in this case. It's too late to go back and get certain information. Guy talked about that in his Facebook Live video.

• 59:40Speaker 07

  If just certain things were done differently, we could have had definitive answers.

• 59:46Speaker 00

  The Greenbergs have been searching for those answers for 11 years now, and a lot has changed during that time. Sam Goldberg got married in 2014 and is a father. His uncle, who Sandy says took Ellen's stuff out of the apartment the day after her death, is a judge now. Guy DeAndrea went into private practice, and Dr. Osborne took a new job in Florida. And get this: Dr. Galino, Osborne's former boss, was actually placed on administrative leave due to an unrelated scandal involving the cremated remains of some bombing victims.

• 1:00:21Speaker 04

  Oh, okay.

• 1:00:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, a lot to take in. Meanwhile, a Philadelphia judge recently ruled that the Greenbergs lawsuit can go to trial, although no one knows exactly when that could happen. But just being able to go to trial is a major win for the Greenbergs.

• 1:00:40Speaker 04

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:00:41Speaker 00

  Josh and Sandy are still haunted by the way their daughter died and of what she must have endured before her death. They believe Ellen was a victim of domestic violence.

• 1:00:50Speaker 06

  We know she was not a suicide victim. She was a homicide victim of a brutal attack. And she was abused before the attack. She was being abused. She didn't know how to tell us that she was being abused, and we didn't know how to ask the right questions to find out if she was being abused.

• 1:01:07Speaker 00

  Sam Goldberg has never been charged with domestic violence against Ellen. And while he hasn't publicly commented about her death to any media that I'm aware of, he did apparently tell her family members that he believes she died by suicide. Ellen's parents are careful to avoid pointing the finger directly at Sam. And police have never named him as a suspect.

• 1:01:28Speaker 05

  It's not our job to find out who murdered Ellen Rae Greenberg. So we're not going to speculate, and we're not going to talk about it. We need professionals who have ethics, who will investigate this case and bring justice to our daughter.

• 1:01:49Speaker 06

  This is my mission and my purpose, to get justice for my daughter.

• 1:01:54Speaker 00

  Tom says Ellen's story is really a cautionary tale about trusting all the players in the criminal justice system to do a thorough job.

• 1:02:02Speaker 03

  In a case like this, you want to make sure that it never, ever happens again. What the hell is the problem? Who the hell are they protecting? And why? That's my big thing. Why? Thank God the Greenbergs have the support that they do to go through this. Because how many individuals are out there that don't have, that these types of things have occurred and don't have that kind of support?

• 1:02:36Speaker 00

  If you or someone you know is a victim of domestic violence, help is available. The number for the National Domestic Violence Hotline is right in our show notes, along with a number that can provide help for anyone dealing with suicidal thoughts.

• 1:02:50Speaker 03

  Hi, crime junkies. Nina here. Like Ashley said at the top of the episode, I reported on this case back in 2021. But lots has happened since then, and I've been following along every step of the way. Since 2011, Ellen's parents have fought to have her manner of death changed from suicide to homicide, or at the very least, undetermined. They also sued the city of Philadelphia for emotional distress, accusing officials, police officers, and Dr. Marlon Osborne, the pathologist who conducted her autopsy, of conspiring to cover up her murder. That all came to a head earlier this year in February, when the emotional distress trial was supposed to start. It was there that everyone would have to answer for how they handled Ellen's case

• 1:03:35Speaker 03

  in a very public way. But that didn't happen. Instead, Dr. Osborne's lawyers called the Greenbergs' lawyers and decided to reconsider. And now, he says that based on new evidence he hadn't seen back in 2011, he no longer believes Ellen's death should be classified as a suicide. According to Osborne, this new information included things like conflicting witness statements and forensic findings. Now, the so-called "new info" is not new. These facts have been public for years, and you guys heard it all in our episode. What was new was that Osborne acknowledged them. And that was huge, because even though he no longer worked for Philadelphia, it essentially pitted him against the city, and he probably would have been called to testify against them.

• 1:04:20Speaker 03

  So, right when jury selection was starting, the city decided to settle their case. They didn't admit to any wrongdoing, but they agreed to pay the Greenbergs an undisclosed amount of money. And most importantly, they agreed to expeditiously reexamine Ellen's case. When we talked to Ellen's parents, they had mixed feelings. On one hand, they got what they'd been fighting for, for Ellen's case to be reexamined. But they spent 14 years and almost $1 million in legal fees to get to that point. Hulu's docu-series, Death in Apartment 603: What Happened to Ellen Greenberg, goes into all of this and what's happened since that settlement was reached, which, according to Ellen's parents, hasn't been enough at all.

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  In September, the Greenbergs were back in court looking to compel Philadelphia to produce its findings of its reexamination of Ellen's case. According to the Philadelphia Inquirer, the judge presiding over that hearing, Linda Carpenter, seemed to understand why the Greenbergs were frustrated. She called out the city for the delay, which she said was ridiculous. Judge Carpenter actually questioned whether she should conduct a hearing to change Ellen's manner of death from suicide to undetermined "herself", and she suggested forcing the case back to trial. Ultimately, though, Judge Carpenter agreed to continue the case until October 14th, so there could be another update very soon. And if there is, trust it will let you know, because we're still following this case closely.

• 1:05:48Speaker 03

  Make sure to follow Crime Junkie on social media at Crime Junkie Podcast. And for even more episodes featuring original reporting, like the work I did for this episode, join the Crime Junkie Fan Club today.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com. And if you want to listen to more episodes like this and all of our episodes completely ad-free, be sure to join our fan club. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. You'll also get early access to new episodes every week as well.

• 1:06:32Speaker 04

  And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast.

• 1:06:35Speaker 00

  We will be back next week with a brand new episode.

• 1:07:00Speaker 00

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. I think Chuck would approve.

• 1:07:09Speaker 03

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing: Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather around, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.