MURDERED: Lyric Cook-Morrissey & Elizabeth Collins

When two young cousins go out for a bike ride and never come home, a community has to ask: is a predator living among them?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ashley Flowers?

  When you're out in nature, you learn to trust your instincts. You pay attention to the trail, your surroundings, and you stay alert to protect yourself from harm. But what if the biggest threat isn't the environment at all? On Park Predators, host Delia Diambra explores true crime cases that happen in national parks and remote wildernesses, the places we usually think of as safe and peaceful. Each episode reveals what happened and how much more there is beneath the surface. Listen to Park Predators now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  And I'm Britt.

• 0:35Ashley Flowers?

  And every dutiful crime junkie should know that in Indiana, the trial against Richard Allen has been unfolding for the murders of Abby Williams and Liberty German, which many people know as the Delphi Murders. It has dominated the headlines for weeks. And as of the time of this recording, the defense has just rested and closing arguments are about to begin, which means that this eight-year-long fight might be coming to an end. Maybe already has by the time you're listening to this episode. And for the sake of Abby and Libby's families, who have had to sit day in and day out in that courtroom, hearing every last awful detail about their girls' last few moments,

• 1:18Ashley Flowers?

  displaying a level of courage few of us could possibly comprehend. Verdict aside, whatever the outcome, I hope that they find some peace, some justice that they so desperately deserve. But there has been something that every day, when I see the trial recaps pop up, like I keep finding myself thinking about, and it's this other case, this other set of young Midwesterner girls who were abducted, found murdered in the woods. And actually, for a minute back in 2017, lots of people even thought it could be connected to the Delphi case, which, I mean, now it seems pretty clear it's not. But then it leaves you asking, like, well, where does that leave this other one?

• 2:01Ashley Flowers?

  This other case that happened almost five years before Delphi? And yet, in that one, there still is no trial, no arrests, no suspects, or at least, no suspects officially, anyway. This is the story of Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins.

• 2:24Speaker 01

  Hey Crime Junkies, it's Britt, and I'm jumping in here because, post-recording this episode, some news happened. As I'm sure you all know, a verdict has since been reached in the Delphi case, and Richard Allen has been found guilty on all counts. Though there's some mixed feelings about this one, the jury felt like there was enough presented to convict him. So, that's where we're at today. But, like Ashley said, verdict aside, all we had hoped for was some type of closure for the families by the end of all of this. Of course, this conviction won't give them Abby and Libby back, but hopefully, they've found at least some of the answers they've been searching for. Answers that, unfortunately, not every family gets in seven years, or 10 years, or even a lifetime. But that doesn't mean we should ever stop fighting for them.

• 3:09Speaker 01

  So, let's jump back into today's story where justice is still yet to be served.

• 3:49Ashley Flowers?

  Heather Collins is running errands on a hot Friday in July of 2012, Friday the 13th, in fact. But she's eager to get home and relieve the babysitter, aka Grandma, her mom, Wilma. She's got her hands full. Heather's got four kids, and Wilma's also got her granddaughter from her other daughter, Misty. Heather's also hustling home because, as she told reporters, Nicole Agee and Erin Hepker with KCRG, she has promised one of her daughters, Elizabeth, that they would go out that afternoon to get invitations for her ninth birthday party. So when she pulls in the driveway and walks in, ready to let Grandma clock out, she expects Elizabeth to be there waiting. But Wilma says that she's on a bike ride with Misty's daughter, Lyric.

• 4:31Ashley Flowers?

  Lyric is 10, so the two are like inseparable. And it's not weird that the two went off on a ride together, but it is weird that they haven't been back yet. Wilma told them to be back soon, but it's been like over an hour by this point. But you know, Wilma didn't panic for the same reason Heather is doing her best now not to panic. They live in this tiny, safe suburb of Waterloo, Iowa called Evansdale. Everybody knows everybody and people look out for each other. The girls know a ton of kids in the neighborhood. Elizabeth is a chatterbox, so they likely just ran into some friends. They lost track of time. So Heather heads back out to drive and search for them, sure that the girls are just going to pop up at any moment.

• 5:15Ashley Flowers?

  But the thing is, they don't. Misty shows up after getting off work a little after 1:00 to get Lyric. They still aren't home. And before long Heather's husband Drew gets home too. Still, no sign of the girls. And by now, this is when Heather is panicking. According to more reporting by Hepker and AG, Drew suggests that they go knock on some doors, start looking around even more, check the neighborhood playgrounds, whatnot. But each door they knock on, it is the same. We haven't seen them. They haven't been by here, not here. Like, have you checked there? And at a certain point, they feel like they've checked everywhere and there is no sign of these girls or their bikes. So at 2:48, Heather walks to the Evansdale Police Department

• 6:00Ashley Flowers?

  to report the girls missing, right to the chief of police himself, Chief Kent Smock. And Chief Smock sends a couple of officers to the Collins' house to get more details, do a quick search, making sure the girls aren't hiding or sleeping in the house somewhere. And when they're confident they're not, a ground search gets underway. Sometime between 4:00 and 5:00, Chief Smock swings by the Collins' house where the family's been trying to sit tight because a firefighter found something. Two bikes about a mile away at Myers Lake, and he wants Drew to come with him to ID the bikes. As soon as Drew sees them, his stomach drops. They are definitely Lyric and Elizabeth. They're on this tiny peninsula that kind of juts out into the lake.

• 6:45Ashley Flowers?

  And the gate that should be locked, like should be shut to like block off the peninsula, is wide open, which is how it was when the bikes were found.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Do the girls normally come out to this lake?

• 6:55Ashley Flowers?

  No, not on their own, but like, you know, there's a first for everything, right? Like if they did that though, they're worried now that maybe the girls came out to the lake to swim. It's a hot July summer day. Maybe they went too deep or who knows? But like now they have this whole lake that they have to search.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Is there anything there with the bikes? Like their shoes? I mean, they wouldn't wear their shoes to go swimming, like any of their stuff?

• 7:18Ashley Flowers?

  There is nothing there at the bikes, but like that's no reason to stop. Chief Smock jumps on his radio, tells the fire department to bring out the search boat to drag this lake. And meanwhile Drew, like, I mean, I'd be in the same boat. I don't want to wait for anyone. I'm just going to start looking. And that's what he does. He starts looking nearby because in his mind, like there's gotta be something else here. Some sign or hint or clue about where the girls went or what they were even doing out here. And so he wanders up onto the bike trail that actually surrounds the lake, which has this tall metal fence along both sides. And as he's walking, something on the other side of the fence catches his eye. It's almost like hidden in the tall grass, but there's this flash of blue.

• 8:02Ashley Flowers?

  And when he gets close enough to see what it is, he pulls out his phone. He takes a picture and he sends it to Heather for confirmation. Is he really seeing what he thinks he's seeing? Maybe he's misremembering, but he's not. That blue thing is a Hannah Montana purse that no doubt belongs to Elizabeth. And Heather tells reporters that in that moment, when she gets this picture and she sees that purse, she knew that the girls were gone. They end up retrieving the purse. Elizabeth's cell phone is found inside, putting any question about whether it was hers to rest. And everything kicks into high gear after that in like a matter of minutes.

• 8:45Ashley Flowers?

  Volunteer searchers, like the people of Evansdale and beyond come out in droves. All the parents get out there too. Heather and Drew and Misty, along with Lyric's dad, Dan, who is actually separated from Misty at the time. And while the lake is being dragged, divers go in as well. And listen, Myers Lake isn't massive, but it's not a glorified neighborhood pond either. It's 27 acres, big enough to boat on and big enough to have a little island like in the middle. So when the parents see the divers coming back after just like an hour, they're like, what? There's what the?

• 9:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's no way that they searched this entire lake in an hour.

• 9:27Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. And that's not the only moment of tension between the authorities and the families. Misty actually describes this moment in a Max documentary that was done by Dylan Sires. She says, there's this moment when she asks the cop, like, who's actually searching the island in the middle of the lake? And the cop is like, kind of, where she says, super dismissive, like, kind of like, mind your own business thing? Like, we'll get to it when we get to it. And this upsets Misty so much that she's like, well, if you're not going to get to it now, I will? And fully clothed, like, and there's actually local news footage of this because they're out there by this time. Her and one of the dads just start walking, like, fully clothed into the water, out to the island.

• 10:08Ashley Flowers?

  If investigators can't get to it, they will swim out there to do it themselves.

• 10:13Speaker 01

  You know, if you want something done right.

• 10:15Ashley Flowers?

  And that's what they did. But they don't find anything on the island. Now, even though the ground searches are going to go on through the night, by nine or 10, investigators tell all of the parents, like, you should head home, just get some rest. But they don't want to because they feel like even though the searching might continue, they're worried that they might be focused on the wrong place. Like, all of the focus is on the lake, and the parents aren't convinced that that's where the girls actually are.

• 10:43Speaker 01

  Honestly, I was gonna stop you and say, same. Like, why would Elizabeth's purse be on the fence on the other side?

• 10:48Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly.

• 10:49Speaker 01

  Opposite direction of the lake?

• 10:51Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  If this is like a swimming accident?

• 10:53Ashley Flowers?

  I know. So that night, Drew calls Chief Dan Treulka of the Waterloo PD. And Chief Treulka, he gets it. His gut tells him that there's more going on here than a couple of girls who, like, swam and maybe accidentally drowned. And if he's right about that, no number of volunteers searching in and around the lake is gonna get the girls home. So that night, he notifies the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation, and the FBI gets notified as well. Now, there isn't like, an FBI field office in this tiny town of Evansdale, or even in that region, not even in the state, actually. But Nicole Agee and Aaron Heppker report that, by coincidence,

• 11:36Ashley Flowers?

  the FBI already had loads of agents in that area working a fraud investigation? So they redirect a bunch of them to Evansdale, and search efforts get off to a more robust start the next morning. Investigators from both DCI and the FBI are there, along with investigators from Evansdale PD, the Waterloo PD, and the Black Hawk County Sheriff's Office. Now, the effort to drag the lake and the ground search is all continuing. Like, they still gotta check the box, which I get. But they search it all the way through Sunday, and nothing in that lake turns up, or anywhere else. And by that point, people on the ground have also covered an area of 12 square miles, but there is just nothing.

• 12:19Ashley Flowers?

  They even get so desperate that they drain the lake at one point. But it's in vain. That is not where the girls are. DCI and FBI agents focus in on canvassing and conducting interviews, starting with the families. Nothing about Heather and Drew raises any flags. But Misty and Dan seem to be another story. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. What is taking up your mental real estate these days? I catch myself pre-playing and replaying conversations in my head. Like, I can't tell you the amount of brain time I have spent trying to write a script for a conversation that never goes the way I think it will. Like, endless hours.

• 13:02Ashley Flowers?

  It has taken a total brain rewire to understand what I can and can't control, and what should or shouldn't take up my brain space. There is a lot that we need to be present for, specifically around the holidays, and getting help differentiating between the things that deserve our time and don't is a game changer. And talking with a professional can make all the difference. BetterHelp matches you with experienced therapists, each with at least three years and 1,000 hours of practical experience. A brief questionnaire helps Pair you with the right fit. And if it ever doesn't feel right, changing therapist is simple and hassle free. Prioritizing your own peace and mental well being is one of the best gifts you can give yourself right now.

• 13:42Ashley Flowers?

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• 14:06Ashley Flowers?

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• 14:47Ashley Flowers?

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• 15:19Ashley Flowers?

  Both Misty and Dan have significant histories with substance use disorder, along with criminal records, most of it related to drugs. In fact, Dan is supposed to go to trial in just a few months on mostly drug related charges, but ones that carry serious time. Like, he turned down a plea offer that included a 30 year sentence the day before the girls disappeared, and that was supposed to be the compromise.

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Right, I'd say that's a plea deal with 30 years.

• 15:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, I mean, what he was up against was a lot higher, so.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  But how would any of that connect to the girls?

• 15:53Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know that they know, but I think they suspect that maybe people associated with Dan and whatever he was mixed up in, like again, when you're talking more than 30 years, like it's pretty serious. Like his charges, I believe, were for like manufacturing, distributing, stuff like that. So it's possible there was an operation with more people involved.

• 16:13Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 16:13Ashley Flowers?

  Question mark. I don't know, it doesn't take long for things to kind of go off the rails. So both Misty and Dan agree to sit for polygraphs. Misty is clean, she's been clean for quite a while, but the problem is Dan isn't. He's high when he gets there, which he discloses. But investigators assure him that the test is gonna work just fine. Spoiler alert.

• 16:35Speaker 01

  It doesn't.

• 16:36Ashley Flowers?

  No.

• 16:37Speaker 01

  It can't.

• 16:37Ashley Flowers?

  No, of course not. The results are inconclusive. I don't think he should have ever been allowed to take that test.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:44Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, drugs are, like, everything I know, granted, I'm not a polygrapher, but like, everything I've ever heard about it, it absolutely affects the results.

• 16:50Speaker 01

  We've had cases where people are on like blood pressure medication and they opt to refuse a polygraph because like they don't know how that's gonna affect things.

• 16:59Ashley Flowers?

  But drug use aside, they have Misty, who says she's clean, and even hers, though, comes back inconclusive, which they must have put a lot of weight on because at that point, the script just flips. Things get super confrontational and they accuse Misty and Dan of killing the girls, or at least of knowing who did. Dan ends up storming out mid-interrogation, they both lawyer up and they just stop cooperating.

• 17:27Speaker 01

  Which I'm sure makes them just look even more suspicious. I mean, it becomes like a vicious cycle.

• 17:33Ashley Flowers?

  Well, and not even just suspicious to investigators, but to Heather and Drew as well. The temperature does kind of cool off a bit, like eventually Dan offers to get clean, to sit for another polygraph, Misty offers to sit for another one too, the second time they both pass. So you could say that, again, early days, things were just so heightened.

• 17:54Speaker 01

  Heightened emotions.

• 17:55Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  Are the investigators looking at anyone else, like, besides the family?

• 18:00Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, I'm sure they're looking at friends, family members, neighbors, your neighborhood sex offenders, obviously, but they're not getting anywhere with any of it. Thankfully, though, even though they don't have a specific suspect in their sights, it does seem like police have officially moved away from any kind of accidental drowning theory, because exactly a week into the investigation, the case is reclassified as an abduction. And investigators try to find security camera footage of the girls. The problem is, we're talking 2012, like, the Ring doorbell camera or stuff like that isn't quite as prevalent, like, in neighborhoods.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  And anything that's out there isn't gonna be near the quality that we have today.

• 18:39Ashley Flowers?

  For sure. When all is said and done, they get one. There is one camera from a business close to the Collins' house that caught the girls for, like, a few seconds on a grainy, blurry video, riding by on their bikes, which doesn't do much other than confirm Willma's timeline about the girls heading out on their bikes at about 12:15. By the time Elizabeth's ninth birthday rolls around on July 31st, they still have nothing. This is a full 18 days after they disappeared. But though she's not there with them, there is something comforting to Lyric's mom, Misty. The belief that wherever they are, whatever has happened, they are at least together.

• 19:22Ashley Flowers?

  And Lyric is no doubt doing all she can to protect Elizabeth, looking out for her younger cousin like she always does. Reporting from KCRG says that sometime that fall, investigators have a really hard conversation with Heather and Drew, probably Misty and Dan as well. They want them to be prepared for what's gonna happen if the girls are found. They said if it's good news, if the girls are found alive, they're gonna be told to go to the hospital. If it's bad news, they're gonna be told to meet investigators somewhere that's not the hospital. Which makes the calls that they all get from a local pastor on December 5th all the more gut-wrenching, because they're all told to go to Evansdale City Hall as quickly as possible,

• 20:06Ashley Flowers?

  because investigators are gonna be waiting there for them. And what investigators tell them is that earlier that day, a couple of hunters had stumbled on two small sets of human remains about 30 minutes north of Evansdale in this big wooded area called Seven Bridges Wildlife Area in Bramer County. Formal identifications still need to be made, but as soon as investigators show them pictures of the shoes found with the remains, they all know. 145 days after they vanished and 20 days before Christmas, Lyric and Elizabeth have been recovered. And Drew described the conflicting and complicated feelings that kind of washed over him.

• 20:50Ashley Flowers?

  He has this kind of long quote that he told Nicole Agee and Aaron Hepker. And I don't even want to summarize it because it's just so raw. So how do you read it for us?

• 20:59Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. He says, quote, "It's really painful because when you don't know where they're at for five months and then they find them, you feel relieved. And then you feel guilty. And that crushes you because it's like when they find them, you are relieved that they're at least found. But then you've got guilt. It's the worst thing. I can't think of anything worse."

• 21:19Ashley Flowers?

  I think it's got to be something that so many loved ones of missing or murdered people can relate to. No one wants all this time searching to end in the discovery of remains like you. Everyone wants that happy ending. But after months of sleepless nights and questions with no answers, there is some relief in finally knowing. I always say it's like instead of every possibility, like you can...

• 21:41Speaker 01

  You have one to like, no, no.

• 21:44Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. In that Max docu-series, Dan says he only has one question for the investigators. Were they found together? And Chief Smock tells him, yes, they had each other. Now, the girls were found in an especially remote part of Seven Bridges, which is only accessible via one particular road. And the fact that they were found in Seven Bridges at all gives investigators some important insight into their killer because this area isn't known to everyone. I mean, a lot of locals don't even know about it. But you know who it is known to? Apparently criminals who like to use it as a dumping ground, guns, drugs, that kind of thing. I mean, they found it all out there before.

• 22:27Ashley Flowers?

  Except now, it doesn't seem like anything else related to the girls was left out there with them. They're hard pressed to find anything else out there besides their bodies that helps them generate leads. And even though it feels like they should be dealing with a small pool of suspects, at least again, based on the area, whatever, no one is identified and the case seems to go cold all through the winter into the spring until May of 2013. That's when investigators in this case catch wind of another double abduction a little over 100 miles away in Dayton, Iowa, one with glaring similarities to Lyric and Elizabeth's case.

• 23:11Ashley Flowers?

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• 23:53Ashley Flowers?

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• 24:24Speaker 01

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• 25:20Ashley Flowers?

  I need to give you a little background. So, I haven't mentioned this yet, but double abductions are rare. Like, very, very rare. DCI Special Agent in Charge Larry Hedlund explains in the docu-series that at the time of Lyric and Elizabeth's abduction, there had only been 15 double abductions since the 1970s in the entire country. Lyric and Elizabeth were number 16, and this one in Dayton was number 17.

• 25:46Speaker 01

  Whoa.

• 25:47Ashley Flowers?

  And by the way, there's something kind of interesting. Clearly, they're rare, but somehow Iowa has three, and those three didn't happen from 1970 to now. They're all concentrated from 1991 to now, in our story in 2012. Now, this one in Dayton, also two young girls, also best friends, 15-year-old Kathleen Shepherd and 12-year-old Desi Hughes. They were walking home from their bus stop when a random dude in a red pickup truck pulled over and asked if they wanted to make some money mowing his lawn. Kathleen and Desi were for sure interested. What kid doesn't want to like earn some extra money? But they told him that they'd have to ask their parents first.

• 26:30Ashley Flowers?

  And even though they were less than a block from home, they hopped in his truck when he offered to drive them the rest of the way. And the driver is this big guy who introduces himself as Michael. But instead of driving them towards their houses, Michael starts driving in the opposite direction. And Kathleen and Desi were like, "Hey, like we told you, we have to ask our parents first." And he's like, "Oh yeah, no worries. Like, I'm just gonna take you there, but you can use my phone to then ask." Which is like, not the thing that they needed to ask. Before long, they weren't even in Dayton anymore. And I think this is when they really started to get scared. But Michael wouldn't turn the truck around. And eventually, he pulls into this like long drive,

• 27:15Ashley Flowers?

  but it didn't lead to a house like he said it was going to. It led to this property with a couple of pig confinement and a shed truly in the middle of nowhere. Now, he is still going along with this ruse at this point, probably trying to keep them calm. He's like, "Oh, the lawnmower is in this shed." And the girls, probably wanting to believe this wasn't a true nightmare, they agree to go in, maybe even hoping there's a phone or whatever. But of course, when they went inside, there is no lawnmower.

• 27:49Speaker 01

  There's no lawnmower, there's no phone. It's just them.

• 27:52Ashley Flowers?

  They turn around to go back outside, but they were stopped in their tracks when they saw that Michael was blocking the exit with a gun pointed at them. He ordered them both to lay down on their stomachs and then he zip tied their hands behind their backs. And once they were secured, Michael put his gun down and picked up a knife instead. Now the girls were panicking and Kathleen just burst into tears begging him to let them go. And this pissed Michael off. So he grabbed Kathleen by the arm, dragged her out of the shed, leaving Desi in there alone. And the last thing she heard was Kathleen just yelling her

• 28:32Ashley Flowers?

  name and then silence. Desi somehow maneuvered and got her hands in front of her. Michael's gun was still there where he left it. So she grabbed it and bolted across the property as fast as she could until she reached a tree to hide behind. And Michael and Kathleen must have been out of view at that point because I don't think he realized Desi was gone till he walked back in the shed. So she's out there and she at some point hears him just yell this expletive. And then she heard his truck start up. And a lot of kids, people, whatever, would probably be frozen with fear, but not Desi. She ran into the giant woods behind the pig confinements.

• 29:16Ashley Flowers?

  And she just ran and ran and ran the whole time hearing Michael's truck creeping down the surrounding country roads as he tried to hunt her down. And after what felt like an eternity, she reached a farm, ran into a couple of men standing outside and begged them to call 911. And all she could really get out was that her friend needed help now. One of these men, who was the owner of the farm, told the other guy, like, grab your gun, go drive to those pig confinements. I'm gonna help Desi. And basically, if that Michael guy is there, like, make sure he stays there. But when this friend comes back, he said all he could find,

• 29:57Ashley Flowers?

  it wasn't Michael, not even another girl. All he found was a pool of blood. Desi was saved, and they ultimately determined that Michael was Michael Klunder. He was the son-in-law of the man who owned those pig confinements. He was also a registered sex offender. Now deputies made a beeline to this guy's house about 10 miles away. And while they were there outside, Michael's wife pulls into the driveway. And when they asked her where her husband was, she told them, I don't know, but like, I just got this text from Michael, like a very cryptic text, because basically all it said was he loved her and that he was sorry.

• 30:40Ashley Flowers?

  Before long, Michael's father-in-law ends up finding him on another property he owned. He had taken his own life. And then 18 days after that, Kathleen's body was found in the Des Moines River. Now, obviously, when the dust settles a little bit on that case, that's when everyone wonders the same thing. Was Michael the guy who had taken Lyric and Elizabeth? Now, they end up finding out that he was familiar with Seven Bridges, that area that they said like someone had to know this place. He had been sent to some sort of juvenile detention facility in that general area for assaulting a girl back in 1986, when he was just 15 years old. And he ended up escaping from that place.

• 31:25Ashley Flowers?

  And guess where he was found hiding out?

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Seven Bridges.

• 31:28Ashley Flowers?

  Yep, Seven Bridges. So it might have been unknown to a lot of Iowans, but it was not unknown to Michael. And guess what? Remember how I said there had only been three double abductions in the state since 1991?

• 31:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:44Ashley Flowers?

  The 1991 case involved two toddlers.

• 31:47Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 31:48Ashley Flowers?

  And guess who our perp was?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  No.

• 31:50Ashley Flowers?

  Michael was responsible for, at a minimum, we know, two of the three Iowa double abductions on record.

• 31:59Speaker 01

  Double abductions that are incredibly rare.

• 32:02Ashley Flowers?

  Incredibly rare.

• 32:03Speaker 01

  In general.

• 32:03Ashley Flowers?

  Iowa has three of them. So let me fully break down this guy's criminal history, because I think it really paints a picture. In 1986, when he was just 15 years old, he assaulted a girl with the intention to commit sexual abuse. That is how he wound up in that juvenile detention facility from 86 to 88. By 89, he was free for a hot minute, but he wound back up in custody from 89 to 91. Because at the age of 17, he committed another assault. This time, it was with the intent to commit serious injury. He got out in 91, but not even a full four months later. He tried to abduct a young woman that he like tricked into pulling over under the pretense of her taillights being out.

• 32:47Ashley Flowers?

  And I think he was like pretending maybe to be an officer or, or maybe he was pretending to help. I don't know exactly, but he managed to, when she like pulled over, drag her into his car. Ryan J. Foley reports for the Associated Press that it was only when she got the attention of another driver that he ditched her and fled the scene. So she survived, but he's like on the run at that point. The next day, he abducted those two toddlers. Now, apparently, he knew one of their moms, which I'm guessing is how he got caught. But when he abducted them, he put them in his trunk, drove them to this rural spot like 50 miles away and left them in some sort of trash receptacle. And not unharmed, by the way.

• 33:30Ashley Flowers?

  Though they both survived, one of them was found to have been choked. So he went back to prison, serving about two decades before being released in 2011.

• 33:42Speaker 01

  And then Lyric and Elizabeth happened in 2012 by who knows?

• 33:49Ashley Flowers?

  And then in 2013, we know that he attacked Kathleen and Desi before taking his own life.

• 33:54Speaker 01

  When did this guy even have time to get married?

• 33:58Ashley Flowers?

  So that was actually fresh. He got married sometime in 2012, which would have been the same year that Lyric and Elizabeth were killed.

• 34:05Speaker 01

  And let's be clear, there's a pattern here. He goes to prison, gets out. Within a year, he's reoffending.

• 34:13Ashley Flowers?

  I mean.

• 34:14Speaker 01

  Like every time.

• 34:14Ashley Flowers?

  Every single, for his whole life. So yes, I see a pattern. A lot of people see a pattern. And I think the, the key is if he's responsible for Lyric and Elizabeth's case, there is a pattern.

• 34:27Speaker 01

  There's a very clear pattern.

• 34:28Ashley Flowers?

  Otherwise, he waited a little bit longer. So if he's out in 2011 and waits till 2013, it's a year-ish, right? So it could be close. But guess what? In 2014, investigators say it's not him. We've ruled him out.

• 34:43Speaker 01

  No way.

• 34:44Ashley Flowers?

  Ruled him out completely. They never say definitively why, but Chief Treulka thinks that it has to do with his cellphone pinging up in the Dayton area, which was 100 miles away. Apparently, his phone, the day that the girls went missing, were murdered. His phone is 100 miles away.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Ashley, can I tell you something shocking? Phones don't abduct people.

• 35:11Ashley Flowers?

  Right, his phone is 100 miles away.

• 35:13Speaker 01

  His phone's 100 miles away.

• 35:15Ashley Flowers?

  Where is he? I know, I know. In my, like, I would say, does he have an alibi? We don't know. I would say probably not. Um, I know police have said that they believe he was at home or at work. But like, again, to me, that's not, like, if you-

• 35:35Speaker 01

  Believe, you don't know.

• 35:37Ashley Flowers?

  And even if you, even if he was at work, apparently, his working could put him on the road sometimes anyways. So it's not inconceivable. You can make a 100-mile trip there and back easy in a day. I mean, you, you travel, what is like, South Bend?

• 35:53Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like 115 miles from my house to the office.

• 35:58Ashley Flowers?

  And you make day trips here all the time. Now, maybe they've got more that they just haven't disclosed. I kind of wonder if there's like some MO stuff that we aren't privy to, because I haven't talked about Lyric and Elizabeth's autopsy results or manner, because that's never come out.

• 36:14Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 36:15Ashley Flowers?

  Even to this day. So the only thing I feel like would maybe inform their thinking is that?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Okay, but I feel like we don't see a lot of consistency and pattern with his other stuff, though. So like, why would that, like, is there enough to say, like, this isn't something he would do?

• 36:32Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 36:33Speaker 01

  Based on the wide variety of ways he's assaulting people in the past?

• 36:37Ashley Flowers?

  And I don't have like a ton of like detailed detail, right? Like, we know, we have the most detail about Kathleen and Desi. Uh, all like we know is maybe like that he choked the toddler. I don't know if something happened to the other toddler. I don't have details about these other attacks on like, single victims. So it is possible there is stuff that is, you know, for these solved cases is none of the public's business and has not been released. I don't, and again, maybe I'm just like making stuff up, but like- And like, to me, what his MO is, is he's a predator.

• 37:08Speaker 01

  Right.

• 37:08Ashley Flowers?

  Like, through and through.

• 37:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, he's, he's a bad guy who preys on people.

• 37:14Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, but they still say, it's not him, he's cleared. But what's so interesting is like, in the same year, in 2014, the FBI does a profile of Lyric and Elizabeth's killer. And when I look at the profile, I'm like, oh, so you're describing Michael?

• 37:30Speaker 01

  The picture's the same.

• 37:32Ashley Flowers?

  Right, I sent it to you, can you just give us the highlights?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, so it says, "Perp may have been experiencing problems in his personal life, may not talk much about the case, but is probably following it closely in the news, may have altered his appearance and/or the appearance of his vehicle."

• 37:48Ashley Flowers?

  Which, to be fair, I don't know that any of that applies to Michael, but it's like, it seems just like, super general.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Question marks.

• 37:53Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 37:54Speaker 01

  "Perp is probably familiar with Myers Lake, could probably blend in and could be from Evansdale or Brammer County, probably used either a ruse or threats of violence to get the girls to comply."

• 38:06Ashley Flowers?

  Ruth, check, we know he did that with Catherine and Desi.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  And it says he probably chose Seven Bridges because he knew how secluded it is.

• 38:14Ashley Flowers?

  Check, check, check.

• 38:16Speaker 01

  And like, "Perp probably has a history of abductions and attempted abductions."

• 38:20Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and it's so wild, because like, at the same time, they keep doubling down on the Seven Bridges thing, like, the FBI had weighed in, and the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children does too, and Grant Rogers even quotes Chief Smock in the Des Moines Register, saying that they have no doubt the killer was super familiar with the area, and so like, all of the experts agree on that point.

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Well, and, like, he didn't just know about the area, he ran away and hid there.

• 38:48Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  He knows it's secluded, because he chose it as a hiding place.

• 38:51Ashley Flowers?

  And again, they keep talking about this area, I'm like, we know that, like, we, like, they're just keep doubling down, like, we know that, now we need to know who.

• 38:58Speaker 01

  And they still say, despite all of this.

• 39:01Ashley Flowers?

  It's still not Michael.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  Not Michael.

• 39:02Ashley Flowers?

  No, but they also don't have any new names to offer up. Or they don't until November of 2016, when a new suspect emerges.

• 39:14Ashley Flowers?

  So let's be honest for a second. Everybody hates bank fees. Most of us picked our bank when we were 16, got used to random monthly charges, overdraft penalties, and minimum balance requirements, and just accepted that that was a part of life. But life adds up fast, and that's where Chime comes in. Chime is changing the way that people bank. They're not like traditional old banks that love to gatekeep the best rewards and pile on hidden fees. Instead, Chime offers the most rewarding, fee-free banking with no monthly fees, no overdraft fees, and no minimum balance fees. Plus, you get 5% cash back on your Chime card in a category of your choice, like gas or groceries, all while building your credit through regular, everyday spending without a credit check. And if you ever find yourself in a tight spot,

• 39:58Ashley Flowers?

  SpotMe lets you overdraft up to $200 fee-free. Join the millions who are already banking fee-free with America's number one choice for banking. Head to chime.com/crimejunkie. That's chime.com/crimejunkie. Sign up now. It only takes a few minutes. Chime is a fintech, not a bank. Banking services and Chime card provided by Chime's bank partners. Qualifying direct deposits required. Terms and limits apply. Go to chime.com/disclosures for details.

• 40:26Speaker 01

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• 41:10Speaker 01

  Save time and money on your prescriptions. Check out GoodRx at goodrx.com/crimejunkie. That's goodrx.com/crimejunkie.

• 41:22Ashley Flowers?

  In November of 2016, a traveling auto insurance field inspector from central Iowa named Jeff Altmeier gets arrested that month on suspicion of impersonating an officer and attempting to abduct a six-year-old girl in an Iowa town on the border of Nebraska. So this guy basically offered her $100 to get in his car. And in fact, when they searched, they find a whole wad of a hundreds, like when he's taken into custody, along with Xanax and Viagra. And this wad of $100 bills makes sense because it turns out that this guy has been doing this before. In fact, DCI had been getting bizarre reports from all over the state about some dude trying

• 42:04Ashley Flowers?

  to get kids in his car by offering them $100.

• 42:08Speaker 01

  How did they even get on to him?

• 42:10Ashley Flowers?

  Well, Lindha writes for the Des Moines Register that the six-year-old refused to get in his car and then told her mom and their 22-year-old neighbor, who was like, "Oh, hell no," had the girl describe the car. Then they jumped into their own car, like straight up barefoot, sped off after this silver Ford Focus that was described. And there was literally, I mean, straight up this high-speed chase where he's like going after this guy till he gets the plate number, which he then turns over to police. So, this happens. Naturally, investigators still working Lyric and Elizabeth's case, which is a little cold by now, are especially interested to learn that his targets almost always turn out to be young girls.

• 42:54Ashley Flowers?

  And he's even already suspected of being connected to a June 2016 attempted abduction of three girls 12 miles from Evansdale.

• 43:03Speaker 01

  Three girls at the same time?

• 43:05Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, at the same time. But, as promising as he looks, there is one glaring problem with his MO compared to Lyric and Elizabeth's case. Because while he's suspected of having, like, tried this at least 19 times, 19 different kids he tried to get in his car. And he is eventually charged and convicted of two counts of sexual assault on a minor. It seems like anyone he was able to get in, or whether they refused, or whatever, like, he let them go.

• 43:37Speaker 01

  And what did you say he drives?

• 43:38Ashley Flowers?

  He drove a Ford Focus at the time.

• 43:40Speaker 01

  So that's like a sedan. So, I mean, what would he have done with Lyric and Elizabeth's bikes? Like, Michael, he had a truck, like, that made sense. This doesn't fully, like...

• 43:52Ashley Flowers?

  I mean, unless someone... So, a truck makes sense if you get the girls in your car, incapacitate them, and you have to, like, transport the bikes with you. The other option is, whatever happened to them? Like, someone got them to meet them there? Or they were there when someone came across them already? I don't know.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  I mean, I kind of lean toward, like, dumped there, just thinking about how her purse was kind of, like, tossed in another area? And the bodies were somewhere completely different?

• 44:19Ashley Flowers?

  What I tried to figure out was, like, were there any prints by the bike? Where there was tire prints or footprints? Yeah, can you see, like, the girls' prints by the bikes? Or fingerprints on the bikes if someone would have had to have dumped them?

• 44:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:31Ashley Flowers?

  But there isn't a single mention of any of that in the reporting. I'm... I would hope, I'm sure, but I hope they have all of that. They're just, again, it's one of those things they're not releasing. But, I don't know, a combination of everything is why Jeff, while promising at first blush, is pretty much written off by the time of the next notable double abduction. This one in Indiana. And this brings us back to where we started.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  Libby and Abby in Delphi.

• 44:59Ashley Flowers?

  Mm-hmm. Now, we didn't get hardly anything for years in that case. Like, same as Lyric and Elizabeth, they didn't even release the cause of death. So there was a lot of speculation early on.

• 45:10Speaker 01

  I remember.

• 45:11Ashley Flowers?

  Now, since the trial for the Delphi case has been underway, we've learned that Abby and Libby were killed by having their throats slit. I don't know if that is similar or dissimilar to the case. But suspicions still linger on the internet. Or at least they did for a while, despite both agencies saying very clearly early on that the cases weren't connected. Back before we knew anything in the Delphi case. And even then, like, early on, even Drew, one of the dads, like, wondered if there was a possible connection. But I think for the most part, like, people were just grasping at straws. You had these two, like, unexplainable tragedies.

• 45:51Ashley Flowers?

  Both like, you know, in the grand scheme of the country, fairly close to one another.

• 45:56Speaker 01

  And no one in any way has connected Richard Allen, who's charged in the Delphi case, to Iowa at all, right?

• 46:05Ashley Flowers?

  No, I never even saw it come up. So I think everyone is pretty satisfied now that they are separate cases. But Delphi, you know, getting some potential closure, this case going to trial, even if we don't know how it's ended yet, it does leave the families of Lyric and Elizabeth back at square one. Or square two, if square two is their first suspect, Michael? Because you see, when Dylan Sires, that filmmaker that I've mentioned, when he released his doc in 2024, he ended up digging up some bombshell information. You see, he figures out that two guys who did time with Michael Klunder

• 46:49Ashley Flowers?

  lived in Evansdale in the summer of 2012. Their names are Troy Conkling and Chris Ricketts. And according to Chris, he personally knows that Michael was in Evansdale around the time of the abductions. Chris said that Troy called him in that summer of 2012 and was like, "Oh, my God, you're never going to believe who is here with me right now." And Troy hands the phone off, and the next voice that Chris heard belonged to Michael. He's like, you know, full of good cheer and bro energy, like, "What's up? How've you been?" Whatever, that kind of thing.

• 47:25Speaker 01

  But like, on the day?

• 47:27Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know if he gets that specific, or even if anyone knows, because by the time he's retelling this, I mean, it's years later. But it's still worth looking into, right? So Dylan and Elizabeth's dad, Drew, go track Troy down, and they actually confront him about this. Did you call him with Michael with you in Evansdale? And he gets defensive and he denies being with Michael at all, let alone in Evansdale in the summer of 2012. But he does, however, agree with Drew on one thing. If you're placing bets, the good money is on Michael being Lyric and Elizabeth's killer. And this is someone who knew the guy.

• 48:08Ashley Flowers?

  Now, in a really, like, strange turn of fate, it turned out that Drew, the dad, knew Chris? Like, they went to high school together?

• 48:18Speaker 01

  Strange turn of fate or small town America?

• 48:21Ashley Flowers?

  Small town, that's fair. So Drew ends up calling Chris back and he's like, "Listen, I had a conversation with him personally. Troy's denying everything." And then Chris kind of changes his story. So now he's saying, "Okay, like, they didn't call me. I actually saw them together in Evansdale that summer." I don't know, right? Is the story changing because he's lying? Or is the story changing because he was trying to, like, distance himself?

• 48:47Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, I feel like it's, this is enough that they'll believe me, but I can distance myself from it. And then when it starts falling apart, he has to kind of, like, out himself more.

• 48:57Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And he offers up an interesting piece of information that he hadn't mentioned before, or at least he, like, really hones in on. He talks about why Michael would have left his phone. Like, again, the whole thing is like, "Oh, Michael's phone is up here." He's like, "He came down here without his parole officer's approval."

• 49:19Speaker 01

  And it's far enough that he has to...

• 49:22Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. So he's like, instead of asking for approval, he probably would have had to leave his phone up there to skirt the rules, or like, to at least, and again, I don't know if they were tracking his phone, but to make sure there wasn't digital evidence of him being somewhere.

• 49:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, make sure that the paper trail is clean.

• 49:37Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And like, and it makes me wonder, like... If he was involved, was this like premeditated? Was he like thinking he was gonna do something? And of course, he's gonna leave his phone at home. Or maybe it was just about the parole and he was there and then everything...

• 49:50Speaker 01

  An opportunity arose.

• 49:51Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, it was opportunistic. Now, Dylan, obviously, like in these phone calls and these meetings with people, like they were recording everything. They turned the footage over to investigators. But it doesn't seem like the investigation has advanced much since then. I mean, this was just 2024, like this year. So I don't know. I think it was like towards the top of the year that at least came out. I don't know when he turned over the footage.

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:14Ashley Flowers?

  So I don't know if anything's happening in the background at all.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  But investigators are still saying Michael's in the clear.

• 50:21Ashley Flowers?

  Yes.

• 50:22Speaker 01

  By not saying anything.

• 50:23Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. So they haven't said a lot, which like the last official statement was he's in the clear.

• 50:30Speaker 01

  And they haven't done anything to contradict that.

• 50:31Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah. And like there are other people who talked on the documentary, like Chief Treulka. He wasn't part, or isn't now, part of the ongoing investigation. But even he says he can't get over all of the coincidences. And he thinks Michael very well could be the guy. But he, again, is like speaking as an observer like us. And though he's no longer involved in the investigation, even Special Agent Headland makes a sensible point that you can't conclude Michael wasn't there just because his cellphone wasn't.

• 51:02Speaker 01

  I'm sorry.

• 51:03Ashley Flowers?

  Thanks, Special Agent Headland.

• 51:05Speaker 01

  I said that.

• 51:05Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  Minutes ago.

• 51:07Ashley Flowers?

  Special Agent Prawat.

• 51:09Ashley Flowers?

  But every day that goes by is another day without answers for Heather and Drew and Misty and Dan. Not that they've just been sitting around waiting for a resolution to the nightmare that they wake up to each and every day. Do you remember that little island? I told you they like swam out to just search themselves. In large part, as a result of Drew's tireless fundraising efforts, Evansdale rededicates it as Angels Park Memorial Island in honor of not just Lyric and Elizabeth, but of three other women and girls from Iowa who were also tragically murdered. There was five-year-old Evelyn Miller from Floyd, who was killed by her mother's fiance in 2006. Donisha Hall, a 13-year-old from Waterloo,

• 51:52Ashley Flowers?

  who was kidnapped in 2006 before her remains were discovered in Illinois. And 22-year-old Lindsay Nichols, who was killed by her boyfriend in 2012 in Jessup. And this, this space becomes Drew's favorite place to think about his little girl. He sometimes brings his other daughters, sometimes even his dogs. And he'll go sit there in this white gazebo and watch the sunset. And he says he feels her presence there. In the years after the murders, Heather and Drew's marriage fell apart. It happens to so many families that lose kids. And mostly because they found that they had really different grieving styles. And it just like, it can poison your marriage. Like Heather kind of buttoned up the grief, like desperate to kind of maintain something

• 52:36Ashley Flowers?

  close to a normal life for her other kids. But, I mean Drew's the first to admit, he just fell into pieces. And he stayed in those pieces for years. He still is in pieces today in a lot of ways. But they've also both found a focus for their grief. And they're still a team when it comes to keeping Elizabeth's memory alive. In 2022, they founded the Elizabeth Collins Foundation with the goal of helping other families with missing loved ones. And they've partnered with the Cedar Valley Crime Stoppers to bring attention to cold cases in the area. And they have an educational mission as well, to educate the community on child safety and the dangers of child abduction and sex trafficking. AudioChuck has made a donation.

• 53:19Ashley Flowers?

  And if any of you crime junkies want to do the same, please head to elizabethcollinsfoundation.org. And though Heather and Drew have completely devoted themselves to the foundation, that doesn't mean that they've given up hope for justice. And they believe that maybe someone out there knows something, which is where you come in, crime junkies. If you know anything about the 2012 disappearance and murders of Lyric Cook-Morrissey and Elizabeth Collins, you can email a tip to ourmissingiowa girls at

• 53:52Ashley Flowers?

  DPS.state.ia.us or you can text a tip to 274637. Make sure you include the word cedar, C E D A R. We're going to have all of that in the show notes, along with a number to call if you would like to remain anonymous.

• 54:25Ashley Flowers?

  You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  And you can follow us on Instagram at @crimejunkiepodcast.

• 54:35Ashley Flowers?

  As always, we'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but we've got a little something extra for you. Stick around for the good.

• 55:04Ashley Flowers?

  Now, I know this isn't the end of the month quite yet, but November is the month of gratitude. After all, we have so much to be thankful for, including some fun things on the horizon. Wink, wink. But most of all, we are thankful for you guys and this community that we've built. So I love the response that we've been getting. You guys love hearing all this good as much as we do, like all the stuff that's come out of this. So I like, we just give you a little, a little extra.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. Okay, so this one is from Jennifer H. And it definitely, definitely gives me so much to be grateful for. Hi, Ashley and Britt and all of the incredible staff at Audiochuck, which, side note, hi. Like, thank you so much for, like, saying something about our incredible, incredible team here. I'm 49 years old and live with my family in Westfield, Indiana. Unlike many of the other letters you receive, I have not been the victim of a crime, nor has anyone in my family. However, when I was 16, my parents decided to move to Indy and join a fringe religious group.

• 56:03Ashley Flowers?

  Oh boy.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  I was part of that for over 20 years. After much soul searching, trauma, and tragedy, I finally came to understand that I had been living in a cult. As a part of this group, I was not allowed to go to college or have a job outside of the cult. You may be wondering how this has anything to do with you all are crime junkies.

• 56:21Ashley Flowers?

  I love her, but like, no, I don't. Like, clearly you've been listening to me, Amber.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  Well, for as long as I can remember, like, literally since I was about 10 years old, it was my dream to become a lawyer. From a young age, I have been passionate about justice for victims and for those wrongfully convicted. I knew I could help change the world by working in the legal field. However, growing up in a cult that wouldn't allow women in the workplace, I gave up on that dream. Many years later, after we escaped the cult and I started my re-entry into the real world, I just assumed that dream was gone and that I had to grieve what could have been. During the beginning stages of my healing journey from the trauma of being in a cult, I discovered you and your podcast. I couldn't get enough. Yes, I am a top-tier fan club member, have been to your events, and tell everyone I

• 57:10Speaker 01

  meet about the incredible work you all are doing. That passion for fighting for justice was reignited, thanks in large part to the work you're all doing. After much soul searching, lots of therapy and self-reflection, I realized that I am the only one who gets to decide my destiny.

• 57:28Ashley Flowers?

  Yes, girl.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  The passion for justice still burns hot in my soul. Watching what you at Audia Chuck have accomplished for victims, their families, and the narrative around true crime has motivated me to grab my dreams and run with them. That being said, at the age of 49, I have applied and been accepted into college as a first semester freshman. I will be majoring in criminal justice with the hope of going to law school once I have my undergraduate degree. Is it a lofty and possibly crazy goal? Probably.

• 58:01Ashley Flowers?

  No, never, never.

• 58:03Speaker 01

  But you all have inspired me to fight for my dreams and help change the world by advocating for victims and their families. I hope someday to meet you all in person. Actually, let's be honest, working for AudioChuck would be an absolute dream come true. Girl, you're just around the corner. I know, Westfield, come on. Thank you again for all the work you do for victims, for teaching us the life rules of a crime junkie, and for inspiring so many of us to never give up the fight for justice. Oof. Here's to, oh, I got chills, a long season of justice. Gratefully, Jennifer H.

• 58:38Ashley Flowers?

  And to women not stepping aside.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  I love this letter so much.

• 58:43Ashley Flowers?

  It is never too late to take back the reins of your life.

• 58:48Speaker 01

  To take back your destiny.

• 58:49Ashley Flowers?

  Yes.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  She used the word destiny, and it's such a powerful word.

• 58:54Ashley Flowers?

  Yes, yes. Women of the world have so much to offer. I love this, and I love that-

• 59:00Speaker 01

  All the time. At 49, she's-

• 59:02Ashley Flowers?

  That's the thing, is like, there's, I hear so many people say like, I, you know, it's too late for me to like, start over, or like, switch career paths, or whatever.

• 59:10Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be completely honest, when we started Crime Junkie, we said we were gonna give it a year. When we're 30, we have to get serious. We have to like, if it doesn't happen by then, it's over for us. We said that.

• 59:21Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and I mean, I feel like I've been someone who like, my whole career has been like, I tried this, and I was like, yeah, yeah, I kinda like it, but like, what else? And I, I kept making like, drastic changes. You get one life to find your destiny and be happy, and it's never too late. So many skills can be applied to other areas. What you can't, like, get a degree for is passion and hard work, and I think if you-

• 59:45Speaker 01

  And a dream. Like, she's been dreaming about this.

• 59:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Since she was 10.

• 59:50Ashley Flowers?

  I know, I know.

• 59:51Speaker 01

  Ugh.

• 59:52Ashley Flowers?

  That's what I love. And it's what we love at AudioChuck.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 59:56Ashley Flowers?

  Like, show me the ideas, like, show me the passion and the hard work, like, that's, you can't teach that. Which is like, a good plug for, you guys, we're always hiring. We're a team of like, 65 people now in Indianapolis. Constantly growing. Um, audiochuck.com, our website, always has job openings.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Little career tab.

• 1:00:13Ashley Flowers?

  We got a careers page. Jennifer, I feel like we'll definitely be connecting. We gotta find a way to meet in Indy.

• 1:00:19Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:00:20Ashley Flowers?

  And maybe someday you'll find yourself at AudioChuck, or anyone listening.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Who knows?

• 1:00:27Ashley Flowers?

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

• 1:00:36Speaker 02

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir. And that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  Growing up in a small town, I know how deeply a crime can shake a local community. And I know that what makes the headlines is rarely the full story. That's what Kylie Lowe explores on her show Dark Down East. She digs into cases from Maine and New England using original reporting, archival records, and conversations with the people who knew them best. Each episode takes you inside the communities these stories shaped and the families who never stop searching for answers. Listen to Dark Down East wherever you get your podcasts.