Pod Insights Crime Junkie INFAMOUS: University of Idaho Murders About this episode Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, four University of Idaho students in their 20s, were brutally murdered inside their off-campus home in the early morning hours on November 13, 2022. Two surviving roommates and a heartwrenching 911 call led police to discover the friends stabbed to death inside the three-story house at 1122 King Road. The safe place that once rang with parties, TikTok dances and laughter, was eerily silenced, surrounded by a nationwide media circus and sealed with crime scene tape.
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0:00 Ashley Flowers? When you're out in nature, you learn to trust your instincts. You pay attention to the trail, your surroundings, and you stay alert to protect yourself from harm. But what if the biggest threat isn't the environment at all? On Park Predators, host Delia Diambra explores true crime cases that happen in national parks and remote wildernesses, the places we usually think of as safe and peaceful. Each episode reveals what happened and how much more there is beneath the surface. Listen to Park Predators now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. And the story I have for you today is one I know you've heard of. It was a case that made every news station nationally at some point. And post Karen Reed, we were all gearing up for this trial
0:45 Ashley Flowers? to dominate public attention all over again. But less than two weeks ago, there was a shocking turn of events. Just a month and a half out from trial, the defendant accepted a plea deal, agreeing to plead guilty in exchange for the death penalty being taken off the table. And it's a move that has the public, and more importantly, the victims' families, split. Some people are happy that he's accepting responsibility without dragging everyone through a spectacle at the expense of taxpayers. But others are frustrated because the trial was their chance at possibly getting an answer to the one question that has mystified a nation: Why? Now, there's a gag order still in place, but plenty of clues have been dropped along the way. And we're going to make our best attempt
1:30 Ashley Flowers? at breaking down this complicated case for you to try and get at that answer. Why did Brian Koberger kill four students at the University of Idaho?
2:13 Ashley Flowers? It's around 4 a.m. on November 13th, 2022, when Dylan Mortensen wakes up to some noises in her off-campus home at 1122 King Road. Now, she'd been out drinking the night before, so she's still a bit buzzed, and her understanding of what's going on is a little hazy. But it sounds like maybe a different roommate, who stays in the room on the floor above her, is like up playing with her dog or something. But as she gets her bearings a little bit, she thinks she hears that roommate, Kaylee Gonzalez, say, "There's someone here." So Dylan gets out of bed, cracks her door to peek out, but she doesn't see anything. And she tries to shake it off, close her door, go back to bed, probably telling herself like the bumps in the night are nothing. But she still hears noises. And then she hears crying.
2:58 Ashley Flowers? Except it's not coming from Kaylee's room upstairs. It sounds like it's coming from a room on her floor, her other roommate's, Zanna Kernodals. And then she hears what sounds like a voice, a man's voice saying, "It's okay, I'm going to help you." Now, she tries looking out her door another time, only to see the same empty, dark hallway. But she can't ignore whatever Sixth Sense is tugging her to her door to check just one more time. And I can almost imagine it feeling like this amorphous energy getting closer and closer as she opens her door once more, until, all of a sudden, that thing she was sensing has a form.
3:41 Ashley Flowers? Right in front of her is a man dressed in all black with a mask covering his mouth and nose. I mean, the only thing visible are his eyes beneath bushy eyebrows. And they're looking directly at her. Now she knows this guy has seen her, but he doesn't say a word and he doesn't move toward her. He just walks toward the sliding glass door that leads out the home's back patio. And I have no idea what could have been going through Dylan's mind in that moment. What stories she was trying to tell herself. The way she probably tried to discredit her own eyes and ears. She was probably confused, probably afraid, drunk on top of it all. And human, telling herself the things we all do.
4:25 Ashley Flowers? Bad things happen to other people, not me. Nevertheless, in the instant that this guy moves past her, she locks herself inside her room and immediately starts trying to call her roommates.
4:37 Speaker 01 Which, there were what, like, five of them total living in the house then?
4:41 Ashley Flowers? Technically, four girls who lived there. Dylan, Xana, then Bethany Funk and Madison Mogen, or Maddie as they called her. But it wasn't uncommon for other people to be there or like staying the night. Like Xana's boyfriend Ethan Chapin and Kaylee, who is always referred to as a roommate because she was shortly before this, but she had actually just moved out because she was graduating early. She was only there visiting her best friend Maddie that weekend. But they hadn't filled her room yet, so there still is a Kaylee's room.
5:12 Speaker 01 I guess I didn't realize that.
5:13 Ashley Flowers? I know. So I don't think Dylan knew exactly who was even in the house that morning. So she starts calling her roommates one by one. And I'm not sure why, but actually, her roommate Bethany had called Dylan a few minutes earlier. Maybe she heard something in the house too and wanted to check in with Dylan, but Dylan didn't answer that one. She's like, calling around one by one. The phones ringing and ringing and ringing. None of the roommates are answering. So finally Dylan does call Bethany back. Bethany picks up, she's at home too. And I don't know what they talk about for the 41 seconds that call is logged, but when it ends, Dylan starts shooting off texts to Bethany, starting at 4:22 a.m.
5:52 Speaker 01 And was Bethany's room on her same floor or a different one?
5:56 Ashley Flowers? So this house has three floors. So the front door to the home is technically in the basement. That's where Bethany's room is. And then on the second level, you have Xana and Dylan's rooms. And then on the third were Maddie and Kaylee.
6:09 Speaker 01 Okay, I think I have it.
6:10 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, so she is firing off text after text to Bethany and she's telling her what she saw, what she heard, that no one else is answering. She's super confused, really freaked out. And she probably has at least some wave of relief. The fact that like she's getting a hold of Bethany. Bethany is at least responding. And Bethany says, come to my room. This is over text. Run. Now Dylan doesn't even know if that guy is still there or if he's gone. But she bolts to the basement and the pair lock themselves in Bethany's room. And they keep trying other roommates unsuccessfully until they eventually both fall asleep.
6:42 Speaker 01 And I know so many people had just a field day with this early on. Like they couldn't wrap their heads around why neither of these girls would just call the police.
6:51 Ashley Flowers? I know. And listen, I'll admit early on, I had a hard time wrapping my brain around it too. But empathy, I think, is something you have to train into yourself, work at constantly. So before you go writing the comment or like posting the thing, you gotta like sit back. Make sure you take in the facts, put yourself in someone else's shoes too, man. Because like, these are technically adults, right? Like in terms of being able to vote or get drafted for war. But Bethany and Dylan were both 21. And I thought I was invincible then. Like it was literally not in my realm of possible thinking that I would ever in a million bazillion years be at the center of what would become one of the biggest true crime cases in the nation, probably for a generation. Strange man in my house or not, you think of every other possible scenario under the
7:36 Ashley Flowers? sun before the worst one. And I mean, it was a Saturday night in college. The university had just had this big football game. Maybe someone could have had a guest over.
7:46 Speaker 01 Well, and on top of that, they're young women. As women, we're constantly being told like, we're overreacting. Don't make such a big deal about things.
7:54 Ashley Flowers? Yeah. And your other roommate is okay. Whoever this was, he walked right past you, didn't even flinch. So maybe everyone else is just sleeping. After all, it's almost 4:30 in the morning now. Dylan and Bethany wake up the next morning. They start like getting on their phones. Dylan is on social media a bit, but there is still enough fear lingering that even in the daylight, they don't want to just go roaming the house alone. I know Dylan texts her dad more than once that morning. Bethany calls her parents more than once. And I'm not exactly sure why they called or if their parents picked up. I'm thinking maybe they called to tell them that they thought something was off about the night before. But eventually Dylan calls her friend Emily, telling her that they think something weird
8:37 Ashley Flowers? happened last night and she asks her to come over and help and bring her boyfriend. They want to figure out why the housemates aren't responding. So Emily says, yeah, fine, I'll come over. She brings her boyfriend Hunter and a roommate, Josie, too. But honestly, they're not taking it too seriously. Because apparently Dylan was one to scare easily. And she'd been freaked out before in the house. Which, when I talk about sitting back and waiting for the facts.
9:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, I never knew that piece.
9:06 Ashley Flowers? Same, so she's been freaked out before. And before, everything was fine. This time was gonna be different, though. Dylan and Bethany are on the bottom floor waiting for them when their friends arrive. And they all decide that Hunter is gonna lead the way. He's already in Xana's room by the time Emily's reaching the second floor. According to the Amazon docu-series, One Night in Idaho, Emily says that she just sees Hunter like, turn around, come toward her, and he's like pushing her out of the house. And he's like, call 911, tell them there is an unconscious person. And I give him a ton of credit because even while trying to process what it was he just walked into, which was far more than just an unconscious person,
9:50 Ashley Flowers? he was still thinking about how to protect everyone else from what he just saw. So it is 11:55 a.m. when Dylan calls 911. Here are parts of that call.
10:02 Speaker 02 911, location of the emergency? Something is happening in our house, we don't know what. What is the address of the emergency? 1122.
10:21 Speaker 02 What is the rest of the address? Oh, Kings Road.
10:27 Speaker 02 Okay, and is that a house or an apartment? It's a house. I'll talk to you guys, we're, um, we live at the White, so we're next to them. And tell me exactly what's going on. Um, one of our, one of the roommates has passed out. And she was drunk last night and she's not waking up.
10:47 Speaker 02 Okay. Oh, and they saw some men in their house last night. Yeah.
10:53 Speaker 02 Hi, this is. Can I argue with the patient? Okay, I need someone to keep the phone, stop passing it around. Can I just tell you what happened pretty much? What is going on currently? Has someone passed out right now? I don't really know, but pretty much at 4:00 AM. Okay, I need to know what's going on right now if someone has passed out. Can you find that out? Yeah, oh come, come on Bethany, gotta go check.
11:16 Speaker 02 Hello? Okay, I need someone to stop passing the phone around because I've talked to four different people. Okay, sorry, they just gave me the phone. Is she breathing? Hello? Is she breathing? No. Okay.
11:33 Ashley Flowers? The Moscow Police Department arrives on the scene pretty quickly and already there's a crowd gathering outside the house. There's Dylan, Bethany, their friends who they called, and some more students who know the crew. They're all standing by, waiting to hear that everything's okay. But as we know, police don't find an unconscious woman. What they see, the scene that Hunter saw, is very bloody. According to a new book that we got access to, The Idaho Four by James Patterson and Vicky Ward, which had a ton of information about this case, Xana and Ethan are found together in her room on the second floor. And it looks like Xana was attacked right at the door of her room, like she is laying on the ground at her door.
12:17 Ashley Flowers? Maybe she'd been like backing up into the room when she was attacked, I don't know, but she had stab wounds from some kind of what they call an edged weapon, and she clearly tried to protect herself from the attacker's weapon because her fingers are nearly severed. The Idaho Four book says that Ethan is laying on the bed behind her, and he's been stabbed too. But there have been rumors that I have seen that his legs were also like, the word that keeps getting used is carved, and this isn't stated in the affidavit that I've seen, but there is a portion of that document where they're talking about finding Ethan and it's been redacted, and it is speculated that is where that detail is discussed or where this comes from.
13:00 Ashley Flowers? But again, no one has gone on record stating that as fact.
13:03 Speaker 01 Right, and were both of them clothed?
13:07 Ashley Flowers? I think so. Nothing in any of the records says anything about them being undressed or anything like that.
13:12 Speaker 01 Okay.
13:13 Ashley Flowers? Now, on the third floor of the house, police check Kaylee's room, but only her dog is in there. He's unharmed. But it's in Maddie's room where they find the two best friends, laying together, sharing a bed, which probably wasn't uncommon since they'd been inseparable since childhood. Both have been stabbed. And in an interview with ABC News, Kaylee's mother, Kristy, says that Kaylee was found, like, sitting up and had defensive wounds. And on the family's Facebook page, they also say that she had been beaten in the face and head, so she likely fought for her life.
13:47 Speaker 01 So then, did he attack Maddie first, like, while they were still sleeping?
13:51 Ashley Flowers? I don't know that for sure. Like, we only know about Kaylee's wounds because her family has talked about them publicly. No one has ever spoken about Maddie's wounds in detail, so she might very well have them too. Maybe not. I can't say one way or another. All I know is that according to a press release from the Moscow police, quote, "some, but not all of them have defensive wounds." And they did say that they believed that they were all asleep when the killer entered the home.
14:17 Speaker 01 And the two of them in this room were both clothed too?
14:21 Ashley Flowers? There's nothing in any of the documents about them being undressed.
14:25 Speaker 01 Okay, so same as before.
14:26 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, and it doesn't seem like the killer spent any time with them. So, right away, this is feeling more like a blitz attack, more than anything else. No one is bound, no one has been sexually assaulted, nothing appears to have been staged or taken, but something was left behind by the killer, seemingly unintentionally. A tan leather knife sheath. And finding that knife sheath marked the beginning of the end for the killer.
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17:15 Ashley Flowers? The knife itself, a seven-inch blade, was never found inside the house, or outside either, when they searched the perimeter of the home and the trash out on the street. But police and the pathologists would later become confident that some, if not all, of the victims' wounds were caused by, if not that specific knife, one a lot like it.
17:34 Speaker 01 And are these types of knives common?
17:37 Ashley Flowers? I mean, ish. Like, they're used by the military. They're used by hunters, knife enthusiasts, like, that sort of thing.
17:42 Speaker 01 They're common among people who use knives?
17:45 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, but definitely not something that, like, any of these kids in this house were known to have.
17:48 Speaker 01 Right.
17:48 Ashley Flowers? So they do think that the killer brought this with him, but then actually took the knife itself back with him. Now, investigators sent a good amount of evidence from the house off to the lab, including fingernail clippings, hair. But the major things they note is that there was a shoe print outside of Dylan's door that likely came from a Vans-style shoe. And they found this. It was invisible to the naked eye, I think, because they used this dye that reacts to body fluid or blood to get this print. So it wasn't like a ton of blood or fluid or whatever, but this print is right in alignment with where Dylan said that she saw the masked man. So they feel like this is his. They also find a blood spot on the handrail between the first and second floor.
18:33 Ashley Flowers? And then they find a black glove outside the home. Now, police note that there is no sign of forced entry into the home, but that doesn't mean that this masked man was let in, because they learned that he walked in through the second-floor glass sliding door, the very one that he was heading toward after he passed Dylan. So it sounds like maybe that had been left unlocked. And listen, Moscow is considered a rural college town, one where, at least before November of 2022, it wasn't a big deal to not lock your doors, according to the One Night in Idaho docu-series.
19:05 Speaker 01 But even then, you have to be thinking that the killer knew one, maybe all of them, knew that the door was sometimes left unlocked. Or, at the very minimum, knew enough about the kind of vibe towards safety that he knew he could get in. I would think he would have cased the place first, though.
19:24 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, and I was gonna say, even like the very nature of this crime feels personal.
19:28 Speaker 01 Yes.
19:28 Ashley Flowers? Like, it feels targeted. And they don't think that this guy was just looking for any house to walk into that night. Like, he was looking for that house.
19:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:37 Ashley Flowers? Or maybe, more specifically, someone in that house.
19:41 Speaker 01 Yeah, the fact that he left two of them alive in the house makes you think it was about one or more of the four who were attacked, right?
19:48 Ashley Flowers? Exactly, yeah, but, and by the way, at this point, those two survivors, they still don't know what's fully going on.
19:55 Speaker 01 Right.
19:55 Ashley Flowers? Or even the extent of it, like, all they know is what they told 911. And this is kind of the wild part to me, so about an hour after police initially showed up, the University of Idaho blasts what they call a vandal alert out to the students' cellphones. Think of it like a safety announcement. It says that Moscow PD is investigating a homicide on King Road, near the campus. Everyone should stay away from the area and shelter in place. And then another vandal alert comes through. This one says that police are investigating the deaths of four people. And that is how Maddie, Xana, Ethan, and Kaylee's friends, who are sitting outside the house, still waiting for any news about what's happening inside, that is how they learn that their friends were killed.
20:37 Speaker 01 God, imagine going from thinking your friends passed out to realizing that four of your friends have been murdered.
20:44 Ashley Flowers? Murdered.
20:45 Speaker 01 And finding out from a text message blast from your school.
20:49 Ashley Flowers? I can't. I don't know how they react in that moment or what the scene outside of the house looks like that afternoon as that news not just rippled through the crowd, but like, came crashing down all over the room. Like, it had to have been chaotic. Which might be why police start making some moves quickly. Like, they need to regain control of the situation. Bethany and Dylan and some of the other students go to the police station to get formal statements taken, and police officially release the names of the students who were killed. 21-year-old Kaylee Gonzalez, 21-year-old Maddie Mogen, 20-year-old Xana Cronodl, and 20-year-old Ethan Chapin.
21:28 Ashley Flowers? But try as they might, control was a hard thing to have. Day one, reporters begin flooding to the area while many of the students head out because they're understandably scared. Like, the university eventually tells students they can attend class remotely. And the reporting that is coming out at this point doesn't have a ton of new information. Like, no one knew much in those early days. Like, it had to have been terrifying. But that void of information just drove wild speculation. I mean, people online are full on blaming Dylan and Bethany for their murders, like, at this point, already. And police do try to, like, grab onto the reins again by holding a press conference.
22:10 Ashley Flowers? They say that they believe this was an isolated, targeted attack on the students. But then they also acknowledge that they don't have a suspect and they can't say that there's no threat to the community. And they just ask the community to remain vigilant. Which, with that, I'd be leaving the school, too. So many people did, which, like, yes, I'm out. I'm pulling my kids out. 100%. For damn sure, yeah. Safety first. But this only made things harder for police because these are also the people that police need to be questioning, and now they're no longer in, like, one concentrated place. Right, they're going everywhere. And this is also probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest, case that's ever hit this department. Oh, and they, and they know it, too. Like, they're not playing the ego game here.
22:54 Ashley Flowers? They're bringing in help pretty quickly from, like, a local county sheriff's office, from the FBI. And in doing so, they are starting to piece together what everyone in the King Road House was doing on the night of the murders, right? Like, divide and conquer. But God bless Kaylee's sister. She was not about to just, like, leave it to police to figure out. She was apparently getting zero details from police, just that her sister was gone. The end. So she's like, "F it." She rolled up her sleeves and went to work herself. She told CBS News that she got into her sister's call log and started calling everyone in there. And she found out that her sister went to this local bar called The Corner Club. Then she got a ride to this food truck. And her sister talked to a driver who gave them that ride there.
23:39 Ashley Flowers? And he told her that the food truck, this place known as the Grub truck, had a camera. And so she's actually the one who got that video footage. I feel like we all saw this video footage early on. I didn't realize she got that. She, but she saw it first. She sees her sister and Maddie together on the camera. And she sees them, you know, get their food or whatever, then get into this car together, but alone, just the two of them. And police confirm that the driver took them home. He dropped them off at the house at around 1:56 a.m.
24:09 Speaker 01 God bless sisters, man.
24:11 Ashley Flowers? Listen, if this isn't reason enough for everyone to get there if I go missing folders in order, I don't know what is. Like, make it easy on your sister, your mother, your father, your friends. Like, they're gonna need to get your call logs and texts in a time of emergency. So, back to the timeline. According to the Idaho forebook, Dylan tells police that she heard Kaylee and Maddie chatting in the living room. And then she heard them walk up to the third floor before she fell asleep. She didn't hear Ethan and Xana get home, though, at 1:45. But based on what Bethany told police, they know that's when they got back from hanging out at Ethan's frat house on campus. So we've got everyone known to be back at the house by 2 a.m. But they're not all sleeping just yet. There is still activity on Kaylee and Maddie's cell phones, though it does start to die
24:56 Ashley Flowers? down as the hours tick by. By 4 a.m., it seems like all the housemates are in their room. And Xana receives a DoorDash order around this time, too, 4 o'clock in the morning. Her phone shows that she may have been scrolling on TikTok for like about 12 more minutes after the DoorDash delivery. And according to the police affidavit in this case, not long after that, Dylan comes face to face with the killer.
25:21 Speaker 01 It makes me think that he started at the top floor, right? Killed Maddie and Kaylee, then came down, killed Xana and Ethan after.
25:31 Speaker 01 I know you said Dylan thought it was Maddie who said someone's here and maybe it was, but I also wonder like, what if it was Xana like saying that to Ethan?
25:42 Ashley Flowers? Or Ethan to Xana. Yeah. I could spend 20 minutes spiraling about this, but like, I'm gonna keep it short and sweet to what we do know as fact in this moment. For the longest time, no one knew what order it happened in, but just a couple of weeks ago in court, prosecutors say that the way you kind of laid it out is exactly what they think happened, that basically the killer came into the home, went straight upstairs first, killed Maddie and Kaylee, then as he was coming downstairs, he encountered Xana, maybe getting her food, maybe eating it somewhere else. I mean, I know there was a Jack in the Box bag with her name on it seen in photos in the kitchen, but it was also a really messy kitchen. I can't say for sure that that bag was from that night, but it's possible. I mean, there are still so many details we don't have, but he encounters her somewhere,
26:27 Ashley Flowers? but we know she is at least in her doorway by the time he kills her and then Ethan.
26:32 Speaker 01 But then, why leave Dylan untouched? I mean, we know she like had this like encounter with him too.
26:39 Ashley Flowers? Why, right? Like, that is our big question. Was it the way that they responded? Like, did they respond differently when they encountered him and it got different reactions from him? Was it something else? Now, despite police over and over again saying that they do not think Dylan or Bethany were involved, I told you, people online were brutal. They didn't understand how Dylan could see someone in the house in this like mask and not say anything. And they really didn't understand how the pair could like wake up the next morning and then be on like social media and calling people who weren't the police. And I don't think they liked the way that Dylan's statements or descriptions of the suspect developed over time.
27:21 Ashley Flowers? Like, earliest statement she gives, she describes this guy as not insanely tall, which is like very vague.
27:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:28 Ashley Flowers? And then later she gives an actual range. It was like 5, 10 to 6 feet. And then it's not till the third sit down that she describes what is now infamously synonymous with this case, the bushy eyebrows. But experts have said that Bethany and Dylan were likely experiencing a trauma response. And by the way, we're old. Like 20 something year olds do a lot of their communications with friends on social media. So it is very possible that's how they were reaching out to their friends in that morning, trying to get people over or to find out things like as they were having this trauma response.
28:02 Speaker 01 Or even like one of the avenues. I know for me, like I have conversations with you on social media and on text and in person.
28:10 Ashley Flowers? And on Slack.
28:10 Speaker 01 There's a million different ways to communicate. And if you're trying to get ahold of people, why not try every avenue?
28:15 Ashley Flowers? Right, and as far as like things changing, like listen, I think she was still processing it all over time.
28:21 Speaker 01 For sure.
28:22 Ashley Flowers? Like when, like when she came in one time, she even says that she remembers that this guy was carrying a vacuum type object in his hand.
28:30 Speaker 01 Which like, what would that have been?
28:33 Ashley Flowers? I don't know. We're not sure. Like Dylan tells detectives she really didn't know how much of what she was seeing was reality, what was a dream.
28:42 Speaker 01 And how much her mind is trying to-
28:45 Ashley Flowers? Fill in the gaps?
28:45 Speaker 01 Fill in the blanks. We talk about that all the time.
28:48 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, according to the Idaho forebook, she even tells cops that she initially thought that the guy was like a firefighter, when you talk about filling in gaps.
28:54 Speaker 01 Right, which obviously you're like, well, in all black with a mask on.
28:57 Ashley Flowers? It doesn't make sense, but I told you, like, what's every story you can tell yourself except for the worst one? Trauma response. Like the brain is wild when it comes to trauma. But the internet does not care. And it does not stop. They keep coming up with wild theories about not even just Dylan or Bethany, like the whole friend group, especially those closest to the victims, including the ones who came over in the morning to check out the house, Emily and Hunter. And then people were also suspicious of Maddie's boyfriend Jake and then Kaylee's ex-boyfriend Jack. Everyone's getting attacked on social media. People were claiming that they must have been involved.
29:38 Ashley Flowers? And I think it was people just trying to piece together what could have happened with like almost zero information. Or just like, you get like this itty bitty piece of the puzzle with zero context.
29:50 Speaker 01 It's kind of another situation of just filling in the blanks.
29:53 Ashley Flowers? Right, and because like one of the things we knew early on or early-ish was that Kaylee called her ex-boyfriend Jack a few times on the night of the murders. And so some people online thought that was odd. I think that's why he comes up so much. But it seems like Kaylee was just like, probably just drunk dialing him with Maddie next to her. And when we see all the phone records, like when those come out in December, it just like, again, this is where like all the speculation comes from because it shows that Dylan was also like deleting pictures on her phone and editing videos from 5:00 a.m. to 6:30 a.m. And at this time, she's already in Bethany's room. Now she stops using her phone until like 8:05 a.m. when she opens Instagram for a bit. But she's also checking Ethan and Xana's Snapchat locations. But to me, that makes sense if she's wondering if they're home.
30:38 Ashley Flowers? What the full picture is, what it means or doesn't mean, we probably would have gotten in a trial and may get when the gag order is lifted. But for now, spoiler alert, we're about to get to the point where police know who did it and it's not any of these kids. Police determine that none of them have anything to do with this crime. But even though, again, even though we have a person, even though police have said that, I don't even know if that has stopped Dylan and Bethany from getting hate mail and death threats.
31:14 Speaker 01 Imagine having your friends murdered in the house that you were in with them and then being accused of doing it yourself while you're trying to grieve and deal with survivor scale.
31:25 Ashley Flowers? I know.
31:26 Speaker 01 And like, just being that young and trying to get on with your, like, get on with your life to a certain extent while processing all that trauma.
31:33 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, I don't know what life after that looks like. And it is worth mentioning, I mean, we, our team tried to reach out to Dylan and Bethany, but we didn't hear back. And by the way, like, I think the Friends got the hardest part of this all, but there were tons of people who were just getting lit up online by others who had no business playing detective, and it made life very hard for people. Like, there was this guy who was seen in that video footage from the food truck talking to Maddie and Kaylee. This guy's wearing, like, a hood, whatever. It's, like, cold November weather, but everyone decides that hoodie guy is guilty and did this, except he didn't. Police determined he was someone that they knew who they were able to clear of involvement.
32:12 Speaker 01 Wasn't there even, like, a professor at the university who got accused of being involved early on? Like, I just remember something about how upside down this accusation turned their life with, like, zero to back it up.
32:25 Ashley Flowers? Professor Rebecca Schofield, who teaches at the University of Idaho. So, this one was, like, I remember this vividly. There was this TikToker and self-proclaimed psychic, Ashley Gillard, who accused this professor of having a secret romantic relationship with one of the victims. I don't know where that came from, but Gillard was basically saying that the professor ordered the murders. And I mean, there was absolutely no evidence to back this up, and Schofield actually ended up filing a defamation lawsuit against that TikToker. And it was a saga in court with Gillard trying to defend her claims by noting that she got other crime scene details right, but the court ruled early on that Gillard did, in fact, defame Schofield. Not surprising.
33:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
33:10 Ashley Flowers? And they're actually, this is still ongoing. They're waiting on a trial to see how much she's gonna have to pay her. But again, I think that's, like, one of the most extreme ones, but there were endless other stories that people were coming up with. I mean, there's rumors that drugs were involved. There were also rumblings of Kaylee having a stalker. But the Moscow PD looks into all of it, and nothing comes of any of those rumors. But still, police follow each one of these, even the far-fetched ones. But when nothing pans out, they start scouring the area near King Road for surveillance footage.
33:43 Speaker 01 Have they already sent the knife sheath and stuff off for forensic testing by this point?
33:47 Ashley Flowers? Oh, yeah. All of this is happening really fast. Like, they're not just gonna, like... Hold off and wait for that to come back, though. I mean, they know they're working against a clock when it comes to an active investigation, and they want to get everything they can as fast as they can. And again, not above asking for help. So they actually lean on Moscow residents and local businesses to look at their own video footage and bring them anything that they think is sus. And they find footage that shows a white Hyundai Elantra near the King Roadhouse a little before 3:30 a.m. on the night of the murders. And then they keep seeing it until like 4:20. And there's this weird pattern of activity, like the driver just keeps passing the house
34:31 Ashley Flowers? over and over again. I mean, it's chilling when you know what happened there. And by the way, the house is on a dead-end street, so anyone passing it this many times is doing it intentionally. What's even more chilling is at exactly 4:04 a.m., this car is seen stopping and turning around. And it looks like this person tries to park on the street behind the house in an area that can't be seen on surveillance. So we don't know what happens because a little bit of time goes by. And then at 4:20 a.m., this car is seen one final time speeding away from the house. And what time did the DoorDash food get dropped off to Xana? Was it right in that same window? 4 a.m., yeah.
35:15 Ashley Flowers? And at some point, they actually did find that DoorDash driver, and she says that she parked right next to this white car, maybe even saw the killer, according to ABC News. But exactly what she said, if she said more than that, hasn't been fully released. I think they were, at least up till this point, trying to keep her story locked up for a potential trial, but I wonder if more is going to come out. Because the timing is wild to me. And I mean, to be clear, she's been totally clear. She like just dropped off the food and left, but... Right, but was he already in the house? Was he still in his car? Exactly. Like, was it just lucky timing that the DoorDash driver didn't see or hear more or spook him? Did he know it was coming?
35:59 Ashley Flowers? Like, did he have to wait?
36:01 Speaker 01 Wait for it like there's
36:02 Ashley Flowers? All the questions?
36:03 Speaker 01 Yeah.
36:03 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, like how regularly was DoorDash ordered at 4 a.m. on a Saturday night out, right? Like, I know my DoorDash account sees a lot of action, usually at certain times. Like, maybe he, this guy, like, he knew to wait.
36:16 Speaker 01 Or maybe he was just passing the house all those times until he saw the lights go out or something, too.
36:22 Ashley Flowers? He's waiting for something. Now, police don't have good enough video footage to see this guy or even see the plates on the car. And they couldn't make contact with that DoorDash driver for a while to even get a description or anything from her. So they did the best they could with what they had in those, like, immediate first couple of days. So on November 25th, this is 12 days after the murder, Moscow police ask all law enforcement to be on the lookout for this car, which they only know to be a 2011 to 2013 white Hyundai Elantra. And while they wait for responses, they start running down leads that could maybe connect someone to the murder weapon.
37:05 Ashley Flowers? Completely unaware, though, that within four days, Washington State University Police in Pullman, Washington, come across a white Hyundai Elantra. That kind of fits the description they got on that BOLO. So they ran the plates, but for whatever reason, maybe because this car they're running the plates on is two years newer than what they were looking for. This one's a 2015. They don't pass that tip on to Moscow police. They just make a note of it in their own records that says, "They ran this. It was registered to someone who lives in a student apartment at the school, someone named Brian Koberger." And that student apartment that he lives in?
37:49 Ashley Flowers? It's only a 19-minute drive to 1122 King Road.
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39:00 Ashley Flowers? My favorite time of the year for clothing is hands-down fall. Sweaters, sweatshirts, I am all about layering. And when it comes to layering, no matter the outfit, you are probably gonna find me in two things: Crime Junkie merch and Quince. Last year, Brit and I both got the same oversized blazer in textured brown. It looks good with everything and on every one, which means it makes for the perfect gift. Actually, anything at Quince would make for a good gift because Quince has a lot more than clothing. I have multiple friends who have the Quince sling bag. Or if you're really trying to impress, go with one of their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. It'll look like you broke the bank, but really, they start at just $50. My personal style, I like pairing the black cashmere sweater with the black midi silk skirt, black tights, and boots. I look super sharp and expensive.
39:45 Ashley Flowers? You would think that I had lost my Midwest sensibility when it came to price, but no, ma'am. Everything at Quince is priced 50% to 80% less than similar brands. And that's because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen so you can give luxury-quality pieces without the luxury price tag. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was here on Crime Junkie. It's the best way to support the show.
40:20 Ashley Flowers? Painfully unaware of the development made over in Washington, police are coming at the investigation from every other angle they can think of. That sheath that they found had a serial number on it. So they start serving search warrants to Amazon and eBay trying to track down the buyer. And that's when they get a good news, bad news break in the case. Good news, maybe you won't need to rely on this car or the eBay search warrant or whatever to lead to the killer. Lab testing is done and there is an unknown male profile, DNA, on the knife sheath. But oh wait, bad news. Actually, maybe you need to do that stuff because we put that into CODIS and there isn't a match.
41:04 Ashley Flowers? Okay, but good news, IgG exists. Totally. And by the way, they also like cross-reference with like the people in this case, not theirs either. So they do, they jump to IgG, investigative genetic genealogy. Now, for those of you who aren't like totally read up on this, the DNA profile that you pull for CODIS is different than what you need for IgG. So even though this is an exciting viable option that most investigations didn't even have just a couple of years before this, it's also gonna take a minute because they have to start the testing process all over again, starting from trying to pull a viable SNP profile, uploading that to public databases like JedMatch, and then working a family tree backwards from lord only knows what distant relative. Right.
41:48 Ashley Flowers? So it's not for another month. On December 19th, that Moscow police hear Brian Koberger's name for the very first time. And when they start looking into this guy, I can only imagine how elated they are when the lead investigator on this case, Detective Corporal Brett Payne, sees Koberger's driver's license photo and determines he looks a lot like Dylan's description. Even has those bushy eyebrows she mentioned. And it just keeps getting better when they see what car he drives, a white 2015 Hyundai Elantra. And it must just feel like icing on the cake when they search surveillance footage around Koberger's apartment in Pullman on the night of the murders.
42:33 Ashley Flowers? And lo and behold, it shows him leaving in said white car at 2:44 a.m. heading south on State Road 270 toward Moscow. This is it. Like this is their guy. There is just one problem. Their guy booked it out of town six days before they realized who he was. They find out that on December 13th, Coburger and his dad took a cross-country drive from Washington State to Albrightsville, Pennsylvania, where his parents live.
43:06 Speaker 01 So his dad flew out there to make the drive?
43:08 Ashley Flowers? Yeah.
43:09 Speaker 01 And was this planned? Like, I'm curious what his dad was thinking when they made this trip, because it is a commitment of a trip.
43:16 Ashley Flowers? It's weird, right? Like, court documents say that the reason he's making this trip is he's headed home for winter break. So, I don't know. Maybe he told his dad that he wanted his car for break. Dad wanted to make sure that he made the trip safely. They wanted bonding time. I don't know. But even a cop that pulled them over along the way thought it was weird. They got pulled over twice, actually, in Indiana, of all places. Like, it's a little weird that I feel Hoosier pride. But they're just, like, pulled over in, like, routine stops. And in one of them, there's body cam footage. And you can hear the trooper ask Coburger and his dad, like, "Where are you going?" And you can't really make out what they tell the trooper. And we know where they're going, right? I assume they tell them Pennsylvania. And the trooper jokingly asks, like, "Are you guys scared of airplanes?" Or like...
43:58 Speaker 01 Right, like, it is a long trip.
44:00 Ashley Flowers? But the stop doesn't result in anything. They're just let go with no issues. There are theories online, though, from internet sleuths after the fact, wondering if maybe he was using this time to dump evidence. There is no evidence of this. And it might be as simple as the dude was just going about life as normal. And to him, it doesn't matter that he just slaughtered four kids and wrecked four families, even more friends and loved ones. It was Christmas break, and he planned to drive home. I also wonder if he was wanting to get his car out of the area. But before police just show up at his door in Pennsylvania, they want their ducks in a row. So a bunch of things happen in quick succession, starting with learning everything they can about this guy.
44:46 Ashley Flowers? What they learn is that Brian Koberger was in Washington State University's PhD program. And for those crime junkies who are coming in fresh to this, welcome to one of the most messed up parts about this case. He was getting his PhD in criminology, and he'd even earned a master's degree in criminal justice from DeSales University in Pennsylvania earlier that year, where he studied under serial killer expert Dr. Katherine Ramsland, who wrote the biography of Dennis Rader, better known as the BTK Killer. Yeah. He even applied for an internship with the Pullman Police Department in 2022. But this is where things start to get eerie.
45:30 Ashley Flowers? So they find out that as part of a research project he did at DeSales, he set up this online survey, and Brian Koberger was listed as the student investigator. And listen, I'm going to post this whole thing because it is fascinating, and I read every single line, but I know that we're on the clock here, and you guys have already given me like a ton of time, so I'm going to give you the highlights. Basically, this thing is set up as a crime research study. Like, here's some of what it says. "Please note that the following survey asks you to detail your most recent criminal offense, whether you were caught or not. In the event that you were not charged, convicted, or incarcerated for the offense, you may still participate in this research.
46:15 Ashley Flowers? Welcome to the research study. We are interested in understanding how emotions and psychological traits influence the decision-making involved in committing a crime. After completing a series of background questions, you will be presented with open-ended questions relevant to the most recent crime you were involved in, and asked to detail your thoughts, emotions, and actions from the beginning to the end of the crime commission process." So then it goes on, and it gives instructions about filling it out, how long it should take, and then it goes into the questions, some of which are, "How did you travel to and enter the location that the crime occurred? After arriving, what steps did you take prior to locating the victim or target, i.e. person or object?
46:59 Ashley Flowers? Please detail your thoughts and feelings." Why did you choose that victim or target over others? And before leaving, is there anything else you did? And by the way, this whole thing gets posted months before the murders. And listen, his professor at the time, who only knew him through an online class, said that it, it being the survey, it falls square into the type of research that they would do in the school's master program. So she didn't think anything was weird about it. But she did know that he didn't actually use any of the data from the questionnaire. So like, did no one answer? Was it really data gathering for personal use?
47:44 Ashley Flowers? Will we ever know?
47:45 Speaker 01 I mean, I'm sure police know. They had to have collected all his devices and talked to the school and...
47:52 Ashley Flowers? Oh, I'm sure because like, I know they went through a lot of his digital stuff, starting, I know, with phone records. And let me talk about those. So Koberger's phone records match the surveillance footage outside of his home in Pullman. This shows he leaves around the same time. This one tracks it at 2:47 a.m. the night of the murders. But then, his phone suddenly goes off the grid, like he turned it off or put it in airplane mode.
48:16 Speaker 01 Sounds like the criminology student didn't want anyone tracking his movements.
48:20 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, and so his phone stays dark all the way up until 4:48 a.m., when it comes back online and pings, putting him on State Highway 95 south of Moscow. Now, his phone is traveling south and he takes this like, long way back to Pullman. And by 5:30 a.m., his phone is home.
48:41 Speaker 01 And you said from his place to the King's Roadhouse is like, 15, 20 minutes?
48:46 Ashley Flowers? 20 minutes tops. Like, when you're taking highways with cameras, 20 minutes. But if you say, went the back roads that are darker, that don't have cameras, less traveled...
48:56 Speaker 01 Wander around a little bit.
48:57 Ashley Flowers? Yep. Something else they see on his phone records gives me full body chills. Five hours after the murders, Koberger's phone leaves his home again and travels back to Moscow. And not just back to the town in general. His phone pings the cell towers covering the King Roadhouse between 9:12 a.m. and 9:21 a.m.
49:23 Speaker 01 I never knew that. So he-
49:25 Ashley Flowers? I know. I didn't like till I got deep in this.
49:27 Speaker 01 So he returned to the scene of the crime.
49:31 Ashley Flowers? It's possible. Mm-hmm.
49:32 Speaker 01 And like I, I'm just like thinking back, all of their friends are out in front of that house at that time.
49:36 Ashley Flowers? No, they're not. They don't come out until later. They're still with Bethany and Dylan are still in the room. I know. And listen, I have a zillion thoughts about this. Like, at some point, he had to have realized that he was missing the knife sheath. Like, with a serial number on it that he bought with his own name. So would he have gone back to try and see if he could get that? But maybe there was like, again, they're not outside yet. There's no activity around the house necessarily at that moment.
50:05 Speaker 01 But he has to imagine that, like-
50:07 Ashley Flowers? It's nine o'clock in the morning. Like, things are happening. People are out. Like, and so maybe he didn't have the opportunity. Or, maybe he was just going back, hoping to catch a glimpse of a crime scene, which-
50:20 Speaker 01 But like you said, it wasn't a crime scene to anyone else yet.
50:24 Ashley Flowers? I know.
50:25 Speaker 01 And, and how long did his phone put him there?
50:27 Ashley Flowers? It was just those like nine minutes. So I don't know. Again, was he trying to get in? I don't feel like someone who would commit a crime like this, like, is above just sadistically watching from the sidelines, like wanting to see the chaos you created. But you also can't just like hang around and wait for it to happen. So, nine minutes, whatever he's doing, he gives it nine minutes. Then he drives back to Pullman to his place and takes a selfie with like a thumbs up in his bathroom mirror. Now, it's unclear if he was like in his apartment the entire time after that or what, but later that afternoon at 12:46 PM, his phone shows up around like a 50-minute drive away from his place near a coffee stand in Clarkston.
51:11 Ashley Flowers? Then he goes to a grocery store nearby, though police know that this area is by two large bodies of water, Clearwater River and the Snake River. So, again, like, are we throwing things away? We still can't find the murder weapon. Around 5:30 PM, he is again back on those unlit backroads in Washington that can lead to Moscow. And then again, his phone goes for about three hours. And what he's doing in that time, I don't know. I don't know if we'll ever know. Was it the same thing he was trying to do earlier in the day? But my gut tells me that these moves were carefully planned because police can see in the phone data that Coburger's cellphone
51:56 Ashley Flowers? wasn't just near King Road on the morning after the murders. His phone pinged on the cell towers covering that area approximately 23 times in the months leading up to November 13, starting all the way back in July. And it was always between the hours of 10:00 PM and 4:00 AM. So he kind of was casing the place? Yeah, this is what I'm saying. This home was his target. But still, why? Why this specific home? And what set this into motion then? Clearly, this was a plot months in the making, right? Like, his phone starts pinging there in July.
52:39 Ashley Flowers? And when they see his online shopping records, they know that he bought that knife on Amazon eight months before the murders. And then, by the way, he searched for one just like it days after the murder. So he's probably trying to, like, replace the one he got rid of. Yeah. And again, I know we don't know if this, like, online school survey that he didn't use the data of has anything to do with anything, but it feels like everything starts like a few months before this, right? Like, that's when that gets posted too. So police feel like they are on the edge of an arrest now. All roads lead to Brian Coburger. So that's when they start surveilling his parents' home in Pennsylvania. He's still there on winter break. According to KSL.com, they see Coburger clean his car from top to bottom. They apparently see him wearing surgical gloves at some point,
53:24 Ashley Flowers? like, multiple times, which, like, odd. A little off, yeah. So when the family puts their trash on the curb, law enforcement swoops in to grab it and send it to the Idaho State Lab for testing. And the very next day... So by the way, DNA testing can happen fast. Now we know. The very next day, DNA from a Q-tip in that trash definitively gets linked to the dad of whoever's DNA was on the knife sheath. So in December 30th, at around 12:30 a.m., snipers surround the Koberger family home in Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania's cert team breaks down the door and takes Koberger into custody on suspicion of four counts of first degree murder and one count of burglary.
54:10 Speaker 01 Why the burglary charge? I thought nothing was taken.
54:13 Ashley Flowers? Nothing was. That's just standard in Idaho. If you enter a home to commit a theft or any kind of felony, you get a burglary charge, even if nothing was taken or you didn't complete whatever the felony was.
54:23 Speaker 01 Got it.
54:24 Ashley Flowers? So, once they have him in custody, their work is far from over. They gotta collect his DNA for a direct comparison, like, because you can't convict him on dad's connecting match, which they do, and no surprise here, it's his. Now, they search his car, which they collect as well for evidence, but it's super clean.
54:42 Speaker 01 Yeah, they watched him scrub it from top to bottom. What did they expect?
54:46 Ashley Flowers? I literally wanted to pull my hair out when I heard that part forever ago. But, listen, I think they were playing the long game here. I guess they didn't want to, like, blow their case by stopping him from cleaning his car. Like, they had plenty of other evidence against him if they played their cards right. So, car, no go. But they also search his parents' home. They find a knife. It doesn't end up being the knife, so no real help there. They also collect black gloves, a black face mask, a black hat, Glock 40 caliber magazines, and like, a lot of criminology books.
55:17 Speaker 01 Was it the same type of mask that Dylan described? And, like, the gloves, were they the same, like, the one they found outside of the house?
55:24 Ashley Flowers? I don't know. What I know is that police do find out that he purchased a ball of clava months before the murders. Again, months, it's like all happening at the same time. And that, like, that they have purchase records of, it's the same kind of black mask that, like, covers your whole face, and that one matched Dylan's initial description. So, we know he had one, or at least purchased one. I don't know if that's the one they found. And as far as the gloves go, and this is actually an interesting monkey wrench. I need listeners to tell me what they think this means respectfully, like theories only, no accusations.
55:56 Speaker 01 Please.
55:57 Ashley Flowers? So I don't know if it was the same type of glove. It's not listed in any reports. But what is listed is that the glove at King Road, that got tested for DNA alongside the knife sheath, along with the spot of blood on the handrail.
56:12 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah.
56:13 Ashley Flowers? The blood spot on the handrail and the DNA in the glove, those came back as not Brian Koberger.
56:20 Speaker 01 Okay, then whose was it?
56:22 Ashley Flowers? I don't know. Like, apparently whatever that DNA they got from those wasn't eligible for CODIS, which could have been for a number of reasons. Like, we know there's a bunch of specific rules about the profile and how-
56:33 Speaker 01 It has to, like, meet certain qualifications and specifications.
56:36 Ashley Flowers? I also know, like, not only does the profile have to be good enough, but like, you have to be able to, like, say that this was related to the crime. And maybe they, like, don't know that for sure. Like, blood in the house feels like probably-
56:47 Speaker 01 But maybe it doesn't tie, like, the glove, like, outside-
56:50 Ashley Flowers? So I don't know why it wasn't included in CODIS, but court records show, I mean, I know Indus Heaters already had Koberger's name and DNA by, like, the point that they learn about this other stuff.
57:00 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
57:01 Ashley Flowers? So Detective Payne, obviously, has been asked about this. And, like, court records showed the answer he gave as, as to why not CODIS. And, like, to me, I don't really fully understand it. Um, he said that his, quote, "understanding" was that entering a new DNA profile into CODIS would get rid of the one that was already in there from the she. And they decided to address the other DNA down the road, only if they needed to.
57:27 Speaker 01 So, okay.
57:27 Ashley Flowers? Which, like, doesn't, I think you can enter too.
57:29 Speaker 01 Yeah, it seems like we should, it seems like we should be able to enter more than one profile.
57:34 Ashley Flowers? If there were, like, not in this crime, but like, I'm trying, I'm thinking back to old crimes that there was, like, more than one culprit.
57:39 Speaker 01 Or more than one piece of evidence.
57:42 Ashley Flowers? I don't know.
57:42 Speaker 01 Okay. All that aside, these other two items with DNA profiles on them, the glove, the spot on the handrail.
57:52 Ashley Flowers? Mm-hmm.
57:53 Speaker 01 Those were the same profile on both?
57:56 Ashley Flowers? No, so, uh, no. That would, I think, be even more suspicious. These are two separate unidentified male profiles.
58:02 Speaker 01 Oh.
58:03 Ashley Flowers? Still unidentified to this day. So, sorry, we got a little bit sidetracked of like all of that. But we're back to the search warrant. So they also searched his apartment. They searched an office he had at Washington State. They were looking at all his devices, cellphone, computer, hard drive. They take a vacuum container into evidence.
58:20 Speaker 01 Wait, so did Dylan really see him holding a vacuum?
58:24 Ashley Flowers? I don't think so. Police at that point think that Dylan probably was just trying to like, like we said earlier, make sense of what was... I don't think it was a legit vacuum that she saw.
58:32 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
58:33 Ashley Flowers? But I'm just sure they're taking it wanting to analyze what's inside of the vacuum, since this is an actual vacuum container and this guy's obviously like intensely cleaning things.
58:41 Speaker 01 Well, and to like, check the box. She said vacuum, we have a vacuum.
58:45 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, also are you like sweeping out things and there's hair or fibers or whatever? They take another black glove. They take some receipts, parts of an uncased pillow that has stains that police describe as reddish brown and possible animal hair, among other things. I mean, they are going through all of it and they send all of it off to the lab. And with Koberger behind bars, on December 30th, the Pennsylvania State Police and Moscow PD announce his arrest to the public. And later that day, his mugshot is all over the internet.
59:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, so this was one of those cases that I had been loosely following, but wasn't tracking like super closely. I got behind one day and it was like, it got away from me.
59:27 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, I know.
59:28 Speaker 01 But I remember being pretty floored that this arrest happened so quickly.
59:33 Ashley Flowers? Well, especially when like early on, like it did seem so random.
59:36 Speaker 01 Yeah, it came out like no one had any information and then all of a sudden.
59:40 Ashley Flowers? We had it.
59:41 Speaker 01 An arrest.
59:41 Ashley Flowers? I was, I, I've seen it go so bad so many times that I think I was a little shocked. But I think everyone was, was, they were shocked, but they were elated, like, great, we have this guy, we found him. But who is he?
59:53 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
59:54 Ashley Flowers? And I mean, Kaylee's dad, Steve Gonzalez, told Good Morning America that, I mean, when he saw it, he felt like this cloud was lifted off of him and his family, like, I mean, it has to feel like such a weight, like, okay, we're one step closer.
1:00:06 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
1:00:06 Ashley Flowers? But I mean, we know that an arrest is only the beginning. And we know the way that the time leading up to and at trial can become a media circus.
1:00:16 Speaker 01 Yeah, been there, done that. Her name was Karen Reed.
1:00:19 Ashley Flowers? Exactly. Listen, I don't know if most of the families knew what they'd be in for. Like, and I'm not talking about these four, like, any family that goes through this. I don't know if you know what you're in for unless you've already lived through it. But it doesn't matter, at least for the Gonzales family. They want their day in court because they want to know why this happened. So Kohlberger has a hearing in Pennsylvania on January 3rd. He agrees to be extradited to Idaho, which happens the next day. And then he's quickly assigned a court-appointed public defender. Cootin County Chief Public Defender Ann Taylor. And there's, I feel like I'm full of side stories today, which is like usually not my jam, but like-
1:00:57 Speaker 01 But this is the case.
1:00:58 Ashley Flowers? There's this whole other side story that I'll summarize quickly. Basically, it comes up that the public defender's office represented Xana's mom at some point, or like a couple of different points, Cara Northington. But Ann Taylor argued in court that there was no conflict of interest. And because, well, she's saying that she didn't actually represent Cara herself. Her name is just on all of the paperwork in the office because she's the chief attorney. And I'm not going to get into all of like Cara's legal stuff because she's not the one on trial here. But this matters because Taylor had been assigned, but withdrew from Cara's most recent case, the same day Kohlberger appeared in court for the first time in Idaho, January 5th.
1:01:39 Ashley Flowers? So Cara told News Nation later that month that she felt heartbroken because she trusted Taylor. Like, I mean, like, she's now, she's not going to defend you. She's going to go defend the guy who's accused of murdering your daughter.
1:01:51 Speaker 01 Right, right.
1:01:51 Ashley Flowers? Now, the thing I'll say is like, since she is the chief public defender, and this is a death penalty case, or was going to be a death penalty case-
1:01:59 Speaker 01 She's like, top of the list.
1:02:01 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, she might have been one of the only ones who can take on something this big. So anyways, soon after Kohlberger had gotten arrested, they actually brought Dylan back in for questioning. And she tells police that she found Kohlberger's mugshot online after she heard about the arrest. But when they ask her if she recognizes him as the guy she saw in the house, she says she doesn't know.
1:02:20 Speaker 01 And she doesn't know who he is outside of this?
1:02:23 Ashley Flowers? No, like-
1:02:24 Speaker 01 Any connection found to any of the victims or survivors?
1:02:29 Ashley Flowers? Well, no, it doesn't seem like any of them knew him. And honestly, had it not been for the sheath, this is what I'm saying. Like, when I saw the arrest and when you realize what, like, how it happened, had it not been for the sheath, I don't know if they would have connected him to anything inside that house. I mean, his DNA isn't matched to any of like the hair that they found. No fiber samples collected from the murder scene. And nothing in his car or house could be tied to the victims either. Mm hmm. But he did. He made that mistake. They've got his DNA placing him there. They've got the cellphone pings now that seem to indicate he was canvassing the scene leading up to the murders. And that's what matters to police. So on May 16th, he gets officially indicted. On May 22nd, we're now in 2023.
1:03:11 Ashley Flowers? He declines to even give a plea, so the judge has to enter one for him, not guilty on all counts. And then a trial date gets set. And then push, and then push some more. But it looked like it was finally locked in. August 18th, 2025 was gonna be the start of opening statements. I mean, we even started reporting on this story in anticipation of a trial start date. We were even gonna stream it on the Crime Junkie Jury YouTube page to keep close tabs on how it was unfolding. And then, just weeks away from the trial start, prosecutors dropped a bomb. And I'm not kidding you when I tell you the collective gasp in the office. Yeah. We did not see it coming.
1:03:54 Ashley Flowers? I mean, listen, I like, I was a little surprised early on that we didn't start here, start at a plea deal, but like, now? This close to the trial, too.
1:04:04 Speaker 03 Based on the state's proffer, and importantly, based upon defendant's explicit admission to committing these crimes, the court finds there is a factual basis. Therefore, with respect to count one burglary felony, how do you plead, Mr. Kolberg, guilty or not guilty? Guilty. As to count two, murder in the first degree, as it relates to the murder of Madison Mogen, how do you plead, guilty or not guilty? Guilty. As to count three, as it relates to murder in the first degree for the murder of Kaylee Gonzalez, how do you plead, guilty or not guilty? Guilty. As to count four, the first degree murder of Xana Carnodel, pardon me, a human being, how do you plead, guilty or not guilty?
1:04:49 Speaker 03 Guilty. As to count five, the first degree murder of Ethan Chapin, a human being, how do you plead, guilty or not guilty? Guilty.
1:05:00 Speaker 03 Court will find that the defendant understands the nature of the charges and each offense and the possible consequences to him of his guilty plea. Court finds that there is a factual basis for the plea and that finds the defendant believes the plea to be in his best interest. I find the plea was given freely voluntarily and was intelligently made. I accept the plea. I direct that it be entered. I'll continue the matter for sentencing in this case.
1:05:27 Ashley Flowers? When Koberger changed his plea and admitted to killing Maddie, Xana, Ethan, and Kaylee, he was doing it in exchange for one thing.
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1:06:41 Ashley Flowers? My favorite time of the year for clothing is hands down fall. Sweaters, sweatshirts, I am all about layering. And when it comes to layering, no matter the outfit, you are probably going to find me in two things: Crime Junkie merch and Quince. Last year, Brit and I both got the same oversized blazer in textured brown. It looks good with everything and on everyone, which means it makes for the perfect gift. Actually, anything at Quince would make for a good gift because Quince has a lot more than clothing. I have multiple friends who Have the Quince sling bag. Or if you're really trying to impress, go with one of their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. It'll look like you broke the bank, but really, they start at just 50 bucks. My personal style, I like pairing the black cashmere sweater with the black midi silk skirt, black tights and boots. I look super sharp and expensive.
1:07:26 Ashley Flowers? You would think that I had lost my Midwest sensibility when it came to price, but no, ma'am. Everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. And that's because they work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middlemen. So you can give luxury quality pieces without the luxury price tag. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns, now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks where you heard about them, let them know it was here on Crime Junkie. It's the best way to support the show.
1:08:02 Ashley Flowers? The deal put forward to Brian Koberger was that if he would plead guilty to all four counts of murder, prosecutors would take the death penalty off the table. And I was a little shocked to learn that the families of the victims didn't know about this plea deal until like days before it was set to happen. And some of them were understandably livid. When he was asked about the deal, Kaylee's dad, Steve, told NBC Today that Idaho has failed his whole family.
1:08:30 Speaker 01 I know they don't have to, but I still understand why they wouldn't go to the families first to make sure they were OK with it.
1:08:39 Ashley Flowers? I know. Well, and I, I, I thought they would. I have this rule, which, by the way, I do not think applies here. I'm not a prosecutor in charge of deciding whether or not someone has their day in court. But like in my business, I say like, don't ask for someone's opinion unless you plan on really taking it or really giving it like a heavy weight and consideration.
1:08:57 Speaker 01 Right.
1:08:57 Ashley Flowers? If you already have your mind made up, don't make a show of including people in the process.
1:09:01 Speaker 01 Just for the courtesy of like saying you asked. If you're gonna do what you're gonna do, just do it.
1:09:04 Ashley Flowers? So if they already had their minds made up, maybe they weren't gonna ask. But it just as well could be that they had enough contact with the families to know where each one of them stood. And they could have known that they were gonna get different answers from them. Like the families were not all aligned. So I don't think there was going to be one decision that pleased everyone. Like Ethan's family had no plans to attend the trial in the first place because they didn't want to re-traumatize themselves. And they released a statement after the news of Koberger's plea deal saying that they support it. For them, It seems like it's a moment of closure. And I imagine had they known a plea deal was an option that wasn't taken, and then this case was gonna be made a spectacle of, in their minds unnecessarily,
1:09:49 Ashley Flowers? they probably would have been upset with that outcome. Maybe, I don't know. I just know that this isn't the first time that the families have disagreed on how authorities handled one or more parts of the investigation. Like, for example, there was, like, there are certain blips in this case I just remember so vividly. One of them is when the King Road House at the university was destroyed. So the university actually owned the house. And after the murders, the school had it demolished. Again, Kaylee's dad, Steve, was very vocal about his disagreement with the decision because he thought that police should have made sure that house was preserved until a trial. But Ethan's family supported the demolition. In the Amazon docu-series, Ethan's brother Hunter, who, by the way, Ethan,
1:10:31 Ashley Flowers? he was one of a set of triplets who were all at that university. But his brother Hunter didn't live too far from the King Road House. He could see the house from his bedroom window. And it was the first thing he saw when he woke up, and he just didn't wanna look at it anymore.
1:10:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't think anyone would want that daily reminder. And, like, in general, as far as the trial goes, people handle grief differently. I get just wanting the person who did it to accept responsibility and to not drag it out. Because at the end of the day, nothing can bring your kid back, and it just has to hurt all the time.
1:11:06 Ashley Flowers? For sure. And, I mean, people will say like, "Oh, well, they weren't planning on going to the trial anyways." But, like, think about it. You think that's gonna stop them from hearing about every last detail? Like, ask someone in your life who's not a crime junkie if they know about this case. They know about this case. It is everywhere. There would be no escaping it. But, for those family members who did want the trial, what they wanted was the answer to why. And now they don't get that. Because, along with removing the death penalty, his plea deal didn't require him to give any details of why he did this. And so, the motive in these murders remains a big mystery throughout this entire case.
1:11:50 Ashley Flowers? However, according to the Idaho Fore Book, some family and friends of the victims do have a theory. They believe that this was targeted, and they believe that the target was Maddie. But why? I know police have never come out and said this. Well, here's the thing. So there isn't any real evidence that's been shared with the public that proves Koberger targeted Maddie. But according to the book, Koberger definitely knew who she was. Apparently, he had liked some of her Instagram photos, even liked some of Kaylee's Instagram photos that had Maddie in them. But did he just find her online?
1:12:34 Ashley Flowers? Or how would he have known her in the first place even? I don't know. Some people who knew the victims have suggested that maybe he dined at the restaurant that she and Xana worked at in Moscow, this place called Mad Greek. And maybe he like became fixated on her. Like to kill her? Well, the answer, like, I feel like to understand how we got like, you gotta know more about who he is to try and like wrap your head around that. Because I don't think it necessarily started that way. So people who knew him claimed that he struggled with substance use disorder throughout his early years. And by the time he got to Washington State University for his PhD, it seems like he was somewhat of a loner
1:13:17 Ashley Flowers? who had a very clear disdain for women. He was a TA working for a criminology class leading up to the murders. And his classmates and the students that he taught describe his behavior toward women and comments that he made in class. They described them all as misogynistic and antagonistic. And he even implied to another student that women should be housemakers and have no business getting master's degrees. And apparently, he'd been given multiple warnings about his behavior. But after months of this, the school did get fed up. And just shortly after the murders, actually. But before he was caught, he got fired from that TA position. Like, it got that bad.
1:13:59 Ashley Flowers? It kind of sounds like a textbook description of like incel culture. It kind of is. And admittedly, that term has come up a ton in this case. And I had heard that term a ton in recent years. I think it gets thrown around a lot. But I actually read the definition of it for the first time while doing this. And from, you know, from Wikipedia, I didn't go like deep, deep, but like. The term is associated with an online subculture of mostly male and heterosexual people who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one. And then they often blame or objectify and denigrate women and girls as a result. So Patterson and Ward's book, as well as the documentary we mentioned, and lots of
1:14:41 Ashley Flowers? experts in this case, say that Kohberger, not just that we're like talking about incel in general, but he was specifically modeling himself after a guy named Elliot Roger, who I wasn't super familiar with. Elliot was a 22-year-old mass murderer who went on a stabbing and shooting spree in Isla Vista, California, targeting primarily women outside of a sorority and the surrounding area. He killed six people, injured 14 others before taking his own life. And right before the attacks, he had posted some YouTube videos and this 137-page manifesto titled "My Twisted World."
1:15:22 Ashley Flowers? And in all of this, he complained about how he was still a virgin and he hated women for rejecting him. He wrote out a detailed plan that he spent years coming up with, calling the attacks "the day of retribution." According to the Idaho 4 book, Kohberger even took a class taught by Dr. Ramsland at De Sales that focused on spree murderers like Elliot Roger, and the Rogers YouTube video was part of the syllabus. Of course, this could all just be people trying to make sense of a crime that maybe doesn't make a lot of sense. But I haven't even gotten to the Papa Roger of it all. I totally forgot about the Papa Roger thing. It's, this is like another weird moment.
1:16:05 Ashley Flowers? So in the days after the murders, there was a Facebook group started up called University of Idaho Case Discussion Facebook Group Page. And the goal was to spread information that could help the investigation. And like, that stuff's pretty typical when you have these major cases. But one person active on the page and posting under the name Papa Roger caught a lot of people's eye. Papa Roger like an ode to Elliot Roger. Potentially. Now, whoever this was started commenting some really weird stuff in the group, like information the public did not know yet. And I actually brought some of it for you to read.
1:16:47 Speaker 01 Of the evidence released, the murder weapon has been consistent as a large fixed-blade knife. This leads me to believe they found the sheath.
1:16:56 Ashley Flowers? So like, not a big deal to us right now, but in that moment, this person should not have known that. Because when Papa Roger posted that, it wasn't public knowledge that a sheath had been left behind. And I don't think a sheath is like the logical thought most people would come to. Like, most people would, I feel like, talk about knives and be like, oh, like a stab wounds or whatever. Because like, the autopsy, I don't know. But it was strange. And then he asked other odd things in the Facebook group that the book mentions. Like, how did the killer hold the knife prior to entering the scene, in your opinion? Sounds a lot like a survey. And he also wrote that the killer isn't in the group's immediate circle. And the guy reportedly argued incessantly with other commenters.
1:17:42 Ashley Flowers? And at some point, police started monitoring this group. Like, it made it to their radar as well, just because of this Papa Roger guy. And eventually Papa Roger gets banned from the group for name-calling. Now, I think it's also interesting that we know police took a book from Coburger's house that they say had information on page 118 of that book, like, that was underlined. Now, we're like piecing together things here, because police have never said what that book was. But there was a lot of speculation online that it was Elliot Rogers' manifesto, because page 118 of that talks about how he selected the date for his massacre that he carried out.
1:18:28 Speaker 01 Do we know if there's any significance to November 13th?
1:18:31 Ashley Flowers? No. So, there's nothing been reported on about that, or if they tied A to B. It's just, again, a weird thing that keeps coming up. Now, I would imagine that if all of this stuff is backed up by police reports and data found on his devices or in his home or office or whatever, we might get more one day. But for now, all we can do is speculate. I mean, there's been a gag order in this case since very early on, and I'm not sure when that's going to be lifted.
1:19:00 Speaker 01 Are permanent gag orders a thing?
1:19:02 Ashley Flowers? I mean, they are pretty rare in criminal trials unless it's like a matter of usually when they can do it is like national security or something like that.
1:19:10 Speaker 01 So if it was Maddie he was targeting, I still don't get the reason behind why some roommates were also targeted and others weren't.
1:19:20 Ashley Flowers? Well, I mean, if his focus was on Maddie and Kaylee was in the bed with her, maybe, I don't know, he could have gotten surprised by that, maybe not, I don't know. One thing, this is like not backed up by anyone. Dylan talks about like, oh, I heard noises, I thought she was playing with her dog. I also kind of wonder if he, like, how much did he scope the house? Did he go into Kaylee's room first and like see the dog and then like, oh, I gotta go find her?
1:19:40 Speaker 01 Right.
1:19:41 Ashley Flowers? Again, I'm just like making stuff up at this point, I have no idea. But if the Elliot Roger thing is the real deal, then maybe he meant to kill everyone in the house as like a bigger show of his anger. But then, also, I go back to why leave Dylan?
1:19:55 Speaker 01 Right.
1:19:56 Ashley Flowers? Now, I don't know if you remember, this was like so long ago, but back in the day, I talked to Zip about this when it first happened.
1:20:02 Speaker 01 Oh, Zip.
1:20:03 Ashley Flowers? I know, for my new Crime Junkies, Patrick Zerpoli, he worked for the Pennsylvania State Police. And when he retired in 2015, he was the unit supervisor of the Pennsylvania State Police Criminal Investigation Assessment Unit. Mouthful. But he does a lot of crime assessment trainings now. We've had him on for a few of our shows, we've talked about different cases. And early on, I ran into him at, I actually think it was like the DEC live show when I was on tour for DEC Investigates. And this had just happened, like, people were just talking about this, that would have been February of 2023. And even back then, without like, we didn't know much at that point. He said that this was targeted. He said it was about one of the girls and that he thought whoever it was, like, Koberger had been rejected by her.
1:20:46 Ashley Flowers? And when he talks, when he does his training, he says there are four profile types of offenders. And when he was like, looking at this, he's like, I think Koberger is the offender type, which is categorized as an anger retaliatory type. Like, it's just that anger that drives them and they can't stop until the anger is gone. But once that anger is gone, it's like they turn off, like they don't have to kill anymore. So I asked him, I'm like, so why does he leave two other people? Or at least one other person that he knows of in the house? The person who sees him? And Zip's like, I mean, he didn't have to. Like, he's done. Anger's been released. His motivation for killing is gone, basically. Now, the way in which he speculated it happened was a little different
1:21:31 Ashley Flowers? because he thought that maybe he was like killing people in the house until he got to the person he was looking for. So if we're gonna say that's Maddie, like everyone who's in his way until he could get that anger out. But we know now that police don't suspect that's how it happened. They don't suspect that she was the last one who died. So I don't know. I just thought it was interesting because it kind of fits, like what he's saying, kind of fits with what seems to be the going theory. At least like we said with like among family and friends. Koberger is set to be sentenced next week on July 23rd. That's also when the families are gonna have a chance to read their victim impact statements. This will be their chance to be heard. So our team is actually gonna keep following this story.
1:22:16 Ashley Flowers? We're gonna have that hearing streamed on the Crime Junkie Jury YouTube channel as well. So if you wanna follow along with us, make sure you go there. And we are gonna try and bring you more updates as they come. Probably mostly on social, so make sure to follow Crime Junkie Podcast on Instagram. But I mean, if we get something big, we'll put it here in the feed. We, when we started this, we reached out to almost every person involved or connected to this case, but nobody wanted to talk before because everyone thought they were gearing up for a trial. Or at least, that's what I think. But maybe after the sentencing, people will be more open. Because I do have a feeling that people within the department who spent their days and weeks and months and years building this case and trying to bring justice,
1:23:01 Ashley Flowers? I think they want to be able to talk. And some may have done so off the record already. Because there was, I don't know if you caught it, there was a Dateline special in May that caused this huge frenzy because they released a bunch of details that they clearly got from someone who was close to the case. And remember, there was a gag order. So the judge on the case was furious. Like, they somehow got their hands on Koberger's internet history. And that was disturbing. I mean, the guy outright searched sociopathic traits in college student. And that was in September before the murders. And then in the weeks before and after, he was searching terms like passed out, drugged, sleeping, and forced. Dateline also reported that Koberger
1:23:45 Ashley Flowers? had dozens of photos of girls and women, many who were in bikinis. And they weren't just like random people. Authorities confirmed that they were students from the University of Idaho and Washington State University, some of whom apparently knew the victims. In another internet search in October, he wrote, "Can psychopaths behave prosocially?" So these are all things that the prosecution would have had before trial. So while we won't ever know exactly what they planned to argue, I think it gives us a good idea of where they were going. And you know, one of the things I think about too is all of the victims were in like sororities or fraternities. And when you go back to that Elliot Roger.
1:24:30 Speaker 01 He attacked a sorority and like the surrounding areas. So did we ever get an idea of what the defense strategy was going to be? Or do you think they were hoping that Brian would accept a plea? It just took a while to convince him?
1:24:44 Ashley Flowers? I watched some of the pre-trial hearings where we got like a glimpse at their plan. It was like, they needed to take this plea. So it seems like they were going to say that Brian Koberger was out stargazing the night of the murders. That...
1:25:02 Speaker 01 Literally explains nothing.
1:25:05 Ashley Flowers? Why your phone is off, maybe, like, not even that.
1:25:08 Speaker 01 A stretch. Certainly doesn't explain the sheath of your knife.
1:25:14 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, being there.
1:25:15 Speaker 01 Your DNA.
1:25:15 Ashley Flowers? Yeah.
1:25:16 Speaker 01 Being there.
1:25:17 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, the prosecution had a strong case against him. And I, I assume they saw the writing on the wall. And isn't it wild how when death is on the table, murderers suddenly get so scared? Like, it's unbelievable to me. And I know that is what mattered to him. Because the defense had even tried several motions to strike the death penalty before his plea deal. With the latest reason being that Koberger is a person with autism. Now, it's not clear when he was diagnosed, but they were trying to argue that his diagnosis exposes him to the risk that he would have been wrongfully convicted and then put to death. Meaning that his limited, like, facial expressions and him being stoic, his stare, which had already been dubbed sinister.
1:26:01 Ashley Flowers? They're saying that, like, all of those are attributes they say he has. And that could have affected the jury's perception of his guilt. And that is why they wanted the death penalty out? That got denied, too. They even tried to argue the IGG staff. They were like, the way you identified him, like, the way the FBI seized the trash outside of his parents' place was a violation of his Fourth Amendment rights. Because police didn't get a search warrant before doing, like, any of that. But the court denied that, too, and said that he had no reasonable expectation of privacy.
1:26:35 Speaker 01 Yeah, I knew that. I've watched a crime show before.
1:26:39 Ashley Flowers? I know, I know. And then the defense also tried to present an alternate suspect defense. But that got denied, too.
1:26:45 Speaker 01 Wait, who would they even bring forward?
1:26:48 Ashley Flowers? They said that there were four other people who could have done this. I don't know who. Because, again, that got denied, and then the motion got sealed. We just know that these other people apparently knew the victims or interacted with the victims before the murders. One other like hail Mary thing they tried to do, which I don't even really understand, is they tried to ban the words "bushy eyebrows" from being used at trial. Denied again. They argued that police didn't say anything to a judge about the unidentified samples of DNA found at the scene when they requested Koberger's arrest warrant in December of 2022. And basically, they say that detectives left it out when the judge was deciding if there was enough probable cause, and they thought authorities were trying to mislead
1:27:32 Ashley Flowers? the judge. So they wanted to throw out the whole indictment altogether, and that didn't work. The authors of the Idaho Four book say Brian Koberger nearly carried out the perfect crime, had he not left the knife sheath with his DNA on it. Thankfully for the families, he did. And I think that is who we want to remember in all of this. The victims and their families, some who wanted their day in court and will never get it now. Kaylee and Maddie were both college seniors, best friends since sixth grade. And Kaylee was just about to head off to live in Austin, Texas and start a new job. She was only there that night, visiting Maddie to celebrate some of their last college
1:28:16 Ashley Flowers? moments together, not realizing how final those were. Kaylee's sister told NBC's Today Show that she had everything going for her. Xana was a junior studying marketing, and her sister described her to WAPT as lighthearted and someone who always lifted up a room. She often introduced herself as Xana, like Xanax without the X, and she was very much in love with freshman Ethan Chapin. Ethan was just starting his college experience, but he and Xana were already planning a life together. He was inseparable from his triplet siblings, Maisy and Hunter. And they said in the Amazon docu-series that he was their
1:28:58 Ashley Flowers? natural leader, and after his murder, they had to return to the University of Idaho without him. His mom Stacy said that it was only a week before the murders, that she had finally felt like her kids were in a great place. Like, it's gotta be so hard, right? To like, send your kids off for the very first time. And she's like, she was just in the place where she's like, I feel good. They're gonna become such bright adults. Now Maddie, she was a senior and a marketing major. She was an only child and her parents' pride and joy. And her dad, Ben Mogen, spoke at a vigil for the four victims in 2022 and said that everything Maddie did was such a big deal to him. Her mom Karen has even kept Maddie's room exactly as it was when she died. She said in the documentary that she has no plans to ever change it.
1:29:43 Ashley Flowers? And her family supports the plea deal. And maybe there will be more answers down the line. But the deal for them is a step towards hope and healing, something that all the victims' families and friends deserve. And it's a shame we know their names this way. But they will be remembered for years, if not generations to come. And not just for the way in which they died. They are also being honored by two foundations. So there was one set up called Ethan's Smile was set up in honor of Ethan. And Made With Kindness was set up in honor of Kaylee, Maddie, and Xana. Both organizations provide educational scholarships, among other initiatives. And we made donations to both. And we're gonna put a link in the show notes to both of these
1:30:27 Ashley Flowers? if you would like to support as well. But you know, there was a University of Idaho student who I think has been lost to time. Not in this case, I'm talking decades before. Her name was Kristen David. And in 1981, she was found dismembered, wrapped in newspapers and plastic bags in the Snake River. Her case has always been associated with four other disappearances and deaths in the area that's known as the Lewis Clark Valley. Now, locals and authorities think there is a serial killer who was at work back then. And even though they had a suspect, they just couldn't prove it. So a lot of those victims have been forgotten. But not on our watch.
1:31:12 Ashley Flowers? The Idaho Four case is now solved. So now I need to direct your attention to another case in the same area. Because here's the scary part. That guy, the one they think might have been a serial killer back in the 80s, he's still out there. And most people around him are none the wiser because his name isn't widely known like Brian Koberger's. But all that changes next week. So be sure you do not miss next Monday's episode. And if you want to listen early and ad free, you can join the fan club. New episodes released there three days early and with zero ads. So we'll see you there.
1:32:10 Ashley Flowers? You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.
1:32:15 Speaker 01 And you can follow us on Instagram at @crimejunkiepodcast.
1:32:19 Ashley Flowers? See you next week for that brand new episode.
1:32:56 Ashley Flowers? Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?
1:33:06 Speaker 01 Growing up in a small town, I know how deeply a crime can shake a local community. And I know that what makes the headlines is rarely the full story. That's what Kylie Lowe explores on her show Dark Down East. She digs into cases from Maine and New England using original reporting, archival records, and conversations with the people who knew them best. Each episode takes you inside the communities these stories shaped and the families who never stopped searching for answers. Listen to Dark Down East wherever you get your podcasts.
1:33:34 Speaker 04 When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir. And that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.
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