AUDIO EXTRA: A Conversation With Elizabeth Smart

This is the full sit-down interview between Ashley and Elizabeth Smart -- a powerful 90 minutes of raw, unedited conversation with one of the most real and honest and deep-down GOOD human beings we've ever had the privilege of knowing.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 3:53Speaker 00

  Hi, Crime Junkies. It's Britt, surprising you in your feed with a special interview. Back in 2021, Ashley and I released our episode, Survived: Elizabeth Smart, where we walked you through Elizabeth's kidnapping and truly remarkable return. If you haven't heard our original episode covering the case, or just need a refresher, please be sure to go back and listen. We were so fortunate to be able to speak to Elizabeth about her experience, giving you all a chance to hear from Elizabeth herself. But that was just a small part of a much larger conversation that we had with her. And that is what you'll hear in this episode. The full conversation between Ashley and Elizabeth back from 2021 to give us a more in-depth look at everything she survived and her life since.

• 4:36Speaker 00

  We originally released this in our fan club, but are bringing it out of the archives for everyone today. So now, onto our conversation with Elizabeth Smart.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Hi, Crime Junkies. For all of you who are interested, we wanted to give you a little peek behind the curtain. So we just released our regular episode called Survived: Elizabeth Smart. But if you would like, we are also releasing this episode, which is just the raw audio of Elizabeth and me sitting down, doing the interview, having the conversation that you hear part of in the episode. So if you are interested in the whole thing, take a listen. And just so you know, I think there are moments where I say something like, oh, don't worry, this isn't for the podcast, or we don't have to use this. We did get her permission to put everything out there that we have. And I'm glad, because I think Elizabeth has so many important things to say.

• 5:30Speaker 01

  So enjoy this audio extra, and don't forget to listen to the regular episode that this is made for: Survived: Elizabeth Smart.

• 6:11Speaker 01

  So Elizabeth, where I'd like to have you start is really giving the listener, again, that where we kind of leave off is you have been found, and the public now, for the first time, actually gets to stop speculating and understand what actually happened. So if you can tell us about the night of June 5, 2002.

• 6:34Speaker 02

  Well, the night of June 5th, 2002, honestly, it started off just like every other night. I mean, there was nothing different about it. There was nothing, um, I guess it was the evening of June 4th. There was nothing different. I mean, it was a normal family dynamic. You know, we went to bed, everything was normal. And the next thing I remember was hearing a voice, and it was a man's voice, and I didn't recognize it. And I didn't think it could be real because Ben weren't allowed in my bedroom. Uh, and so I didn't immediately respond. I thought it just had to be part of my dream because who, who thinks that someone's gonna

• 7:15Speaker 02

  break into their home in the middle of the night and say, "I have a knife at your neck, don't make a sound, get up and come with me." Nobody thinks that, or probably most people don't think that. And so initially, I just thought that it was part of my dream and I didn't respond. And then the voice said the same words again. Um, "I have a knife at your neck, don't make a sound, get up and come with me." And that time I could actually feel something sharp lying across my neck. I could feel someone's hand on my arm, trying to pull me out of bed. And I remember opening my eyes and sure enough, there was this dark figure standing over me. And for the first time in my life, I mean, I was truly terrified. Up until that point, the things that scared me were doing poorly on an assignment, not

• 8:00Speaker 02

  being prepared for my music lessons, having my parents tell me 99 times to go clean my room, and the 100th time can hear them coming up the stairs. I mean, pretty typical, small things scared me before. And so all of a sudden, that just kind of brought a new meaning to that word of, of fear and terror. And I remember he brought me, he took me out of my bed, he took me out through my house, up through my backyard. Our backyard wasn't fenced, it was just open. It ran into the neighbor's yard, ran into a vacant lot. We went up through the vacant lot. Um, there were some bushes. He pushed me down behind the bushes and I remember some headlights coming down the street. I immediately started thinking, this is the getaway car. Um, he's gonna take me in the getaway car. I'm never gonna get away.

• 8:45Speaker 02

  No one's ever gonna find me. But this car, it didn't stop and it actually passed right in front of us. But I remember seeing the word police written alongside the car. And for like that half a second, I was like, oh, it's gonna be fine. Everything's gonna be fine. The police, they're gonna get out, they're gonna rescue me. It's like, it's gonna be just, just fine. Like, I don't have to worry about anything. But it didn't stop, it kept going. And the sinews, it was around the corner. He had me running across the street and up into the mountains behind my home. And I mean, truthfully, I don't think I've ever prayed so hard in my entire life. As he was running me up into the mountains. And I didn't actually realize how far we had run up into the mountains till much later.

• 9:30Speaker 02

  I think I was just so pumped full of adrenaline and fear that I just, I mean, time almost seemed to stop. But yet, the sky was starting to get lighter and the sun was coming up right as we topped over the top of this mountain and started down the other side. And we came to this stand of trees and this woman walked out of the tent. Well, cause in the middle of the trees, the stand of trees, there's a tent set up. Um, there were some tarps lying on the ground. This woman walked out. She was dressed different. She looked different than really anyone I'd ever seen before. And she came up to me and she hugged me and she brought me inside of the tent.

• 10:12Speaker 02

  Where she proceeded to start to undress me and sponge bathe me. And just, I mean, I was shy. I was, I was a wallflower, like, I was very self-conscious.

• 10:24Speaker 01

  When you first saw her, like, was there a moment? Cause I, I'm thinking about me as a fourteen year old girl, like, a, a man would have terrified me. But was there a moment when you saw her where you're like, oh, maybe this isn't gonna be so bad? Like, maybe this woman would help you, like, as a young girl? Or were you just as scared of her?

• 10:39Speaker 02

  Well, on the way up there, he mentioned that he had his wife waiting for us. And so for a second, I was like, oh, like, maybe they just really wanted a child? Or maybe they had a child and she passed away? And I would be about her age, or maybe I look like her? Or like, my mind kind of went to a nicer place than the reality. But, and when I saw her and when she hugged me. It wasn't like a nice comforting hug, like it's gonna be okay kinda hug. It was like, if you ever cross me, you will suffer. I am in charge here. I'm not here to protect you, like you will do what I want you to do.

• 11:21Speaker 02

  And then, you know, she was so insistent in having me undress. And she was so insistent in trying to make me, well, she wanted to sponge bathe me, that I think I was still probably less scared of her than I was of him. But I also knew that she was not there to be my friend or my protector.

• 11:42Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. So after she, you know, she sponge bathed you, I mean, you don't have to walk through everything that happened. But you, I guess like what always baffles me is like you went into this so innocent. Like, I mean, by 14, like I was a crime junkie. I think like I, I knew some of the worst things that could happen to people. But you've said over and over that you, you didn't, like you weren't even prepared for what was coming. And I feel like you had to grow up in the span of like hours. And what was, if you could just talk like, again, you don't have to get in detail, but like general terms of what that was like to go from, I'm worried about my homework and cleaning my room to this like survival mode.

• 12:22Speaker 02

  I mean, it was, it was terrifying. It was horrific. And yeah, you're right. It did force me to grow up in a span of hours. I mean, I had heard the word rape before, but it always seemed like such a far away, distant word. It didn't really seem like that was a word that would ever be a part of my life or the life of anyone that I knew, because nobody ever talked about it. No one that I thought I knew had ever experienced it. So I, I just, I mean, I'd heard it on the news, but that was the news. Was that really real life? I mean, was that really? I don't know, like, did it really happen?

• 13:07Speaker 02

  It just seemed so far away, it just didn't seem like it was possible. And, and initially, like, I kept, you know, I kept going through my head as to like, what could happen? Why they might, I mean, I think my, my mind, it, it was very innocent and it kept trying to explain things or give possible reasons and comfort me into thinking that it would be okay. So as like the situation progressed, my mind kept on trying to shield me. And finally, like, the thought just came to me was that, you know, cause he had, he had said that, you know, we were now married, we were now man and wife, every reason, every excuse that I had given him as to why this wasn't okay,

• 13:50Speaker 02

  why this wasn't legal, uh, he came back and he keeps saying, it's time to consummate our marriage, it's time to consummate our marriage. And that, I mean, that just, I didn't, first of all, I didn't know what it meant. Then the thought just hit me, he's gonna rape me, that's what it means. He's going to rape me and there's not a thing I can do about it. There's nothing that's gonna stop him. He's a man, he's bigger than me, he's stronger than me. Like, I literally cannot save myself right now. And like, I think every victim would tell you that it's devastating on pretty much every level you can think of, I mean, like physically, you know, physically, I was a virgin. Like, I hadn't even hit puberty yet, I hadn't even had a period yet.

• 14:36Speaker 02

  Like, I, I'd never had a tampon up my vagina before or anything, I'd never had anything up my vagina. So that was extremely painful. Like, I remember just bleeding afterwards, like, it was, it was awful. I remember just thinking, if this is what sex is, I never, I never wanna have sex ever again. I never wanna have this happen to me ever again. It was just felt like emotionally so destructive that I could not protect myself. That my whole life, you know, I'd been raised in a very sheltered, protected environment, which I'm very grateful to my parents for.

• 15:18Speaker 02

  They did the best that they could and no one thinks that you will ever be in this situation. And certainly, certainly not me, certainly not my family, you know, we, we lived in a very nice neighborhood, we lived in a beautiful home. We knew our neighbors, there were lots of kids in my neighborhood, just, we just didn't imagine anything like this could happen. So, nobody was prepared for it, nobody talked about it. But then also, I mean, I did grow up in a very conservative, very Christian community. And there had always been a lot of emphasis put on remaining, you know, remaining pure, remaining chaste, remaining a virgin until you get married.

• 16:00Speaker 02

  So then it also brought this spiritual layer of disgrace and trauma and just feelings of, of worthlessness, to the feelings of worthlessness I already felt. So, I mean, it was, it was devastating and it made me genuinely feel that if my parents knew what had happened to me, that they would, they wouldn't want me. And they would just be like, well, as unfortunate as this is, you know, we had six kids, that's a lot of kids, now we'll only have five and five kids, that's still a lot of kids.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Wow. That's something that, this isn't for the episode, but that's something that, I grew up in like a very religious home and it, it was so much of like your worth as a woman was like put around virginity and, and purity, to your point.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  And I don't know, like, is there, do you think there's a different, again, I don't think this is for the episode, but do you think there's a different way that people in the community, because I think, I think there's, if people want to wait till marriage, if there is, if there is like something pure in, in waiting to make the choice to give that to someone, I totally respect, I think that's beautiful, but do you think there's a way, like, in religion, that almost we should talk about it differently, like, that's not your whole value, that's not everything you are, and if someone takes that from you, that's totally different than you choosing to give that to someone?

• 17:29Speaker 02

  100%, and honestly, I could talk about this all day, because I feel very passionate about it, because it was very hurtful to me, and caused a lot of feelings of, you know, worthlessness, and just unworthiness, and unlovable, just, it made me feel a lot of things that nobody should feel, and I know that's common, so I respect people's beliefs, like, whatever people want to believe or not believe, like, that, that's fine with me, as long as it, it's not hurting another person, or breaking the law, like, you believe what you want to believe, that's just fine, but I think that it is important that we

• 18:13Speaker 02

  have these kinds of conversations, where we talk about the difference between consensual, enthusiastic, consensual sex versus rape and sexual violence, and talk about, you know, where, where did these come from, because even still, you know, I've met survivors, and, you know, it was their parents who raped them, it was their dad who raped them, or their brother who raped them, or a religious leader who raped them, or, you know, it was someone that they knew, and so they were like, oh, well, you know, I knew them, so it's not rape, well, most rapes come from people that you know, so, I think, just honestly,

• 18:54Speaker 02

  really laying out this groundwork is really important, and just to take a step inside of Christianity for, for just a second, I think, I mean, Christianity, I think, Most Christian religions believe in the atonement of of Jesus Christ. And even if you do believe in waiting for marriage or until you're in a serious relationship, partnership that you see yourself staying in for the rest of your life before you have sex with someone, that's that's fine. That's totally fine, 100% fine. But also, just, I mean, like, should it happen before?

• 19:37Speaker 02

  Should you you and your boyfriend or your partner get caught up in the moment? Like, that doesn't make you a bad person. That doesn't make you an unworthy person. That doesn't make you an unlovable person. And if you know, you do believe in Christ and the atonement, then how is judging other people based on their morality Christlike?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  How do you think that you'll talk about it with your own children? Because I mean, it like breaks my heart to hear you say that like, oh, my parents wouldn't want me anymore. Because like I can just like, knowing everything that obviously that I know about your parents and what they were going through when they lost you. I'm sure that was the farthest thing from their mind. And like, like, obviously, they know that like, none of that was your choice and none of that devalued you by any means. But like, how do you how do you communicate that to a child without having these graphic conversations? Like, how do you how do you say, this isn't all that you're worth? I mean, I guess, I don't even know the question I'm asking. But how do you plan on talking to your kids so that, God forbid, if something were to ever happen to them, they never think that my mom, my mom, my mom Elizabeth Smart somehow thinks that I'm I'm less?

• 20:45Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, ultimately, I did get to the point of realizing that my parents would love me.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:51Speaker 02

  Even despite everything that had happened, that it actually wouldn't change their love for me.

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Did you come to that after you got rescued or while you were still there?

• 20:59Speaker 02

  I came to that, honestly, it was still within that first day.

• 21:02Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 21:03Speaker 02

  I came to that conclusion. I didn't honestly think anyone else would. I didn't think anyone else would want me or have anything to do with me. But I realized that my parents would. And I came to that conclusion because I had a lifetime, I mean, my whole prior life before that, I had never questioned their love for me. I always knew, I knew one hundred percent that they loved me. So for me now, I mean, I have three little kids who may or may not make an appearance.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  I know, I've heard some little baby.

• 21:35Speaker 02

  Yes, they're here. But it's important for me to make sure that I always, I mean, tell them and not just tell them, but show them how much I love them and that I love them unconditionally. And I mean, my daughter, she's in kindergarten and she is so excited about riding the bus to school and stuff. But she's, she's like really anxious to walk to the bus stop by herself, which she's six years old. I mean, I'm just not comfortable letting her do that. I'm like, sorry, nope. Like, we're gonna drive you to the bus stop. We're gonna wait till you get on the bus. Like, we're gonna be there at the bus stop when you get off the bus and we're gonna drive you home. Or, you know, we, we can walk, but I'm gonna be there.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  But I'm gonna be there.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yeah. Or, or you know daddy's gonna be there. Like, one of us is gonna be there. But like, we take these conversations as they come because she actually got kind of upset that we wouldn't just, she was like, you treat me like a baby. And I had to sit down and I had to explain to her, which, you know, it's hard because she gets really, she's very sensitive. Like when she first learns about new things, she almost like, fixates on it or obsesses over it a little bit. Like when they learned about fire safety at school, she came home and she was like, Mama, is our house gonna burn down? Is our house gonna burn down? Like, when is our house gonna burn down? Like? And so we had to talk about that. When I went to a funeral once,

• 23:01Speaker 02

  she, she kept on asking me for months and months and months, are you gonna die? Are you gonna die? When are you gonna die? And so these are conversations that, I mean, they're very important to me and very serious to me, that I want to help her understand that it's not that I don't think she can or that I think she's a baby. Well, I mean, she always will be my baby, but.

• 23:23Speaker 02

  Not that I don't think she's strong enough to walk up the hill to our home. I know she is. I mean, I've walked with her. But just why she can't do it on her own? And it's because I love her and I want to protect her. And I, I trust her that if anything ever happened to her, that the things that might be annoying right now are because some bad things happened to me. And I don't want them to ever happen to her. And I recognize the fact that sometimes I am a bit over the top with it. And my husband, he'll be like, hey, you need like, calm down. You're becoming like a bit too much. But there's this other side of me that's like, well,

• 24:07Speaker 02

  Elizabeth, you will never regret being there for your child, but you might regret not being there. And so having these conversations, as hard as it is, I think there is a way to make it age appropriate without going into gory graphic details yet. And always just reaffirming to them that how much you love them. I think unconditional love is what helps survivors survive anything. I mean, I think the human spirit is the most resilient thing on earth, that humans can overcome anything. And I think that they're able to do that because either they know what it is to have been loved, they have someone that they currently love, or they're searching for that love in their future.

• 24:52Speaker 02

  And so I think making sure children realize how loved and special they are to you, that is one of the greatest gifts you can give your child.

• 25:00Speaker 01

  Your daughter reminds me a little bit of me. My mom used to tell me something that drove me insane, but I was very much like, I wanted to be so independent. And she used to say, it's not that I don't trust you. I don't trust everyone else, the people that I don't know. And it made me crazy as like a little kid. And I, like as an adult now, I'm like, no, I'm like, my mom had it right. Like, why didn't I just trust her? It makes me, drives me wild now. When, oh, so you were saying something that actually brought something up for me. So you were talking about how like, how quickly in that first day, you're kind of like, It's almost like it's how fastly you're moving through these like, I don't even know if it's like the grieving process of, you know, in day one, you went from my parents aren't gonna want me to like,

• 25:43Speaker 01

  yes, they they will love me unconditionally, whatever that means. In this first day, did you think that this was something that was just going to happen today? And then you would go like, did he just want you for this one ceremony in this marriage? Or did you know from like the second he took you and is walking you through the mountains? Or when you got there that he was keeping you?

• 26:05Speaker 02

  I mean, at one point, he told me that he was holding me hostage. So I I didn't think he was gonna keep me forever. But then when we got into the camp, when he like, did like this marriage ceremony, when he, I mean, he chained me up, when I started looking at the around the camp and like, seeing how well stocked it was, when after, I mean, he had raped me. I honestly not sure if I fell asleep or I passed out, but one of them happened. And then when I woke up again and he kind of started telling me some of, almost like the rules of captivity. One of them was, you know, you you're allowed to grieve today for your family.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  But after today, you you you can't cry, it has to end. You, of course, it didn't end. I mean, I kept crying, but he's like, he is also like, you can never, you can never speak about your family again. You know, you're starting a new life now. So, you know, you really can only talk about this moment forward. You know, they had changed my name. They had basically tried to strip me of any and all identity that I ever had. And so at that point, it seemed pretty clear to me that they didn't plan on giving me back or letting me go, that they planned on keeping me for a long time.

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• 29:47Speaker 01

  I hope that in 2021, most people have a better understanding for how they could take control of a young, innocent 14-year-old girl and make you feel like you Had no options. I mean, I I know, though, early on, a lot of people, it makes me sick, like, gave you grief for, why didn't you scream? Why didn't you walk away? But there was a man in your home, like, to me, to to believe that he would hurt your family or go back is, like, even me, again, I I think I was totally different at fourteen. I was, like, already a crime junkie, but I would have believed it. Like, you got in there once, I think you would, you would get in there again. Can you talk a little bit about how he really controlled you?

• 30:32Speaker 01

  Because I don't think it was necessarily physical. I think it was so much of it was mental. And, you know, one of the the pieces that I got from the A and E documentary that you did, that I I don't think I really had a grasp on, was how he was really like your provider, like, you needed him to get water, to like, just live day to day. And can you, so can you just talk about that, about the methods that he used to control you?

• 30:58Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And I just want to just say that, I mean, these methods, they are not unique to me. I mean, you see it across so many victims, whether it's victims of domestic violence, or rape, or kidnapping, or human trafficking. I mean, you see these, you see these methods of control and manipulation and isolation. And I want to say substance withholding, but that makes it sound like drugs.

• 31:26Speaker 01

  No, but I I understand.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  Food and water.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Necessities almost.

• 31:30Speaker 02

  Necessities, yeah. So, I mean, it's very, like, it's pretty common. And actually, there's another word I would like to talk about, which applies to this situation as well, which is called grooming. Which, it's funny, I found that if people haven't personally experienced it, there are actually a lot of people who find it very hard, not that they don't believe it's possible, they just have a hard time wrapping their mind around the concept. So I hope, I mean, I hope they don't ever experience it. Like, I would rather have them not fully understand it and not experience it than have to experience it to fully.

• 32:11Speaker 02

  Understand it.

• 32:12Speaker 01

  I think it's it's important to understand, though, because even the people in it are people who will never be in it. I think there are things that people on the outside can even be looking for, don't you think?

• 32:21Speaker 02

  Oh, one hundred percent.

• 32:23Speaker 01

  Of watching someone else get groomed.

• 32:24Speaker 02

  One hundred percent. But I mean, so what my captors did is, I mean, right from the word go, they took away everything that was important to me, everything that was like a pillar in my life. So they, I mean, they kidnapped me away from my home. So they took away my my family. They took away, you know, my my security. They took away my friends, my school, even like silly things like my clothes. Well, I don't actually think that's so silly, but they took away all my freedoms. So that was, you know, they took away that they took away. And then things they went to like the mental level as well, whereas.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  They took your name.

• 33:10Speaker 02

  They took my name. They took like my religion, something that I held very honestly sacred to me. And they twisted it and twisted it and twisted it. And they would say, well, you know, we really didn't want to kidnap you, but God commanded us to kidnap you. God has commanded like you should actually be thanking us because we rescued you. You were chosen. They said all these things to me. I mean, they took it to extreme levels. That's how they justified every single thing that they did was through religion. And then as time went on, I mean, of course, they always would say initially I was chained up.

• 33:50Speaker 02

  So the threat of me escaping was not was not high. It was it was very low. I I couldn't escape. I couldn't escape my chains. But as time went on, you know, they'd always say to me, well, if you ever do anything, we don't want you to do. We'll kill you. If you do anything we don't want you to do, and we don't kill you, we will kill your family. And that felt one hundred percent believable because they had already broken into my home. You know, the place that I thought was most safe and most secure, and they had kidnapped me, and they had, like, no one had stopped them. And then he used to bring newspaper articles or missing flyers from down in Salt Lake back to this hidden campsite,

• 34:34Speaker 02

  and he'd show them to me, and he'd be like, oh, all of Salt Lake is covered in blue ribbons and light blue balloons, and these missing flyers are on every tree and every telephone pole and in the windows of every house and every, every shop, every grocery store. They're everywhere, but no one will ever find you because I have you. And everything he did just seemed to confirm that. I mean, I remember at one point hearing my name actually being called as searchers were out searching for me. And I mean, he was holding on to me, and he had his knife in his

• 35:15Speaker 02

  hand, and he said, it'll be your fault if anyone comes into this camp, because not only will you die, but you will first watch me kill whoever enters into this camp. And, I mean, he had his knife right there, the same knife that he had kidnapped me with. I mean, it felt very real, and I knew he was capable of evil because I had cried and I had begged and I had pleaded with him to, to not rape me, you know, to not make me go naked, to not force me to do things I didn't want to do. And just none of it had ever affected him. So I knew he was capable of evil, and I knew that he would do whatever he had to do to protect what he wanted. And so,

• 35:57Speaker 02

  to me, that, that was pretty clear, that he absolutely would follow through with killing someone who came into, came across the campsite, who, or who came to try to rescue me. And, I mean, he'd always circle back once again to religion, and he'd say, well, you know, God is protecting us, they won't find us. I mean, I remember there were helicopters. Sometimes they would fly so low over the tent where I was held captive in that I thought, they know we're here, they know we're here, like, they're gonna, like, I just had this vision in my mind of like ropes dropping from sides of the helicopters and like guys in full SWAT gear, FBI gear, you know, rappelling down the ropes and coming into the camp and saving me. I always had that vision in my head that that would happen.

• 36:42Speaker 02

  And um, of course, it never did. And every time the helicopter would fly away, he would be there and he'd be like, God's protected us again. You know, we are doing the Lord's work. He is going to continue to protect us. And I never, I never fully believed what he said was true because there was a very stark contrast between the God that I grew up thinking I knew and this God that was telling him to do all these things. But one of my survival mechanisms was just shutting down, was just doing what they told me because I just always felt like if I didn't, I would be punished for it and I knew they were capable of it.

• 37:27Speaker 02

  I mean, they punished me before, why wouldn't they do it again? And so I just, you know, I, I didn't fight back. I just did what they said because I wanted to survive and I, I didn't want them to hurt me more than they already had. And I didn't want them to kill me. And, you know, I, I depended on them for water. I depended them for food. I mean, when they first started, I mean, I was fourteen when they kidnapped me. I'd never drank alcohol in my life. When they first started bringing alcohol back into the camp, they would withhold food from me until I drank what they told me to drink. I mean, and I remember, like, as silly as it sounds,

• 38:09Speaker 02

  you know, I went through the DARE program in fifth grade and we'd all made our fifth grade pledge not to abuse drugs or alcohol. And in my mind, I was like, I'm breaking my pledge, which, like, at that point was just silly, like, who cares about that? But, I mean, still at that point in time, it was. Like it just felt like I couldn't keep any, I couldn't keep any pledge or any promise to anyone or to myself. And that if I wanted to survive, I just, I just had to be willing to just honestly let go of who I was and do what they wanted because otherwise I wasn't going to make it.

• 38:46Speaker 01

  And one thing that I don't think anyone who's not in a situation like that can understand is this like instinct for survival. I feel like I've heard so many people say like, you know, if that were to happen to me, like I would, I would rather, I'd rather be dead. But like, was there something that kicked in with you that was like, no matter if this is, if this is like my hell on earth? Like, I need to stay alive?

• 39:07Speaker 02

  Well, going back to kind of what I was saying earlier, it was my parents' love for me. I mean, even if nobody else ever accepted me or loved me, I knew that they did. And for me, that was enough. And so that's why I feel like the human spirit is so resilient, so resilient. And, and it's knowing what love is, hoping to have love in your life, being able to feel love. I mean, that is, I, I believe, you know, why we are able to overcome everything.

• 39:42Speaker 01

  Can you talk about when you're there? So, you know, those moments where you're hearing your name and I have to imagine, or you're seeing the helicopters, the hope, right? You have these like visions of people coming to save you and the fuel that that gave you to be like, well, at least someone's looking for me. Like, there's probably a time limit on this. So kind of the hope that it gave you, but then also after the helicopters, and, and there are no more helicopters and no one is calling your name, what it's like to lose that little bit of hope and what that hopelessness feels like a little bit? Because I always think about, you know, so much of what you're doing through foundation is because of these people who don't get the resources you do. And one of the things that stuck out to me as we were doing this next episode

• 40:25Speaker 01

  was like what it must feel like to be there and to know because of the color of your skin or who you are or your family's socioeconomic state, no one's gonna come.

• 40:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was always a battle of emotion when it felt like I was so close and yet so far. Because on one hand, I did, I did just want to scream out and I want to say, I'm here, come and rescue me. But at the same time, I was dealing with like this enormous level of fear where I felt like. If I said something, I would be responsible for the death of someone else. So that was terrible. And then as soon as the helicopter would fly away, or as the voices, I mean, they were never, they were never that close. They were always pretty far away. But when they would disappear completely,

• 41:16Speaker 02

  there was always just like a feeling of despair and hopelessness to think that I was kind of close. And then, of course, as time went on and there became fewer and fewer airplanes and fewer and fewer helicopters. I mean, it was, he was worrying. It made me think, will people remember me? Will I just become another name from the past that sounds familiar? That nobody really knows how they know that name? Or, or maybe they remember what happened, but they just give up hope. I mean, because unfortunately, you know, those first forty-eight hours are, are critical. And the sooner, you know, the sooner you can be organized, the sooner you can get the word out, the sooner you can be out searching,

• 41:58Speaker 02

  using available resources, the better chance you have of, of bringing that victim home alive. And, I mean, that's, that's why we're doing what we're doing. And I, I mean, I remember when I was in college, I saw this, it was an article in our college news, in the campus newspaper. And I remember thinking, why, why do they have to do this? Why do they have to drag me into this? But it was actually talking about, you know, why did my case receive so much attention? And other cases just simply did not. And what it boiled down to was that I was white, I had blonde hair, I looked pretty. My parents, you know, we had a nice home. We came from a nice neighborhood.

• 42:43Speaker 02

  My parents were well-connected. And that's basically what it boiled down to. And I remember at the time, I mean, part of me was just like frustrated and thinking, well, it's not my fault. I have white skin. It's not my fault. I have blonde hair. Like, it's just the genetics I was born with. Like, what, I did not ask to be kidnapped. I mean, I felt very defensive about it, but that article has stayed with me for years. And, I mean, I wasn't always as involved as I am now in, in speaking out, in advocacy and activism. And as I became more and more involved, I started to realize that actually... That's true. I mean, I am not at all saying that what happened to me wasn't a miracle.

• 43:28Speaker 02

  Like, it's the biggest miracle that's ever happened in my life. But I also feel like if all these other cases received the same attention that my case received, we would see a lot more survivors coming home. And especially when we talk about, you know, underserved populations, there are none more so than the Native American and Indigenous populations. You know, they make up such a small, small fraction of the whole population. But, you know, they make up over forty percent of human trafficking victims. I mean, that is, you want to talk about disproportionate, that is disproportionate. It's terrible saying these kinds of things, but

• 44:11Speaker 02

  basically, if you are born a female and you are, you know, a Native American or an Indigenous woman, like, you won the crapshoot because it's not really a question of if it happens, it's almost a question of when it happens. And, and that's not right, and that's not fair. And, I mean, it just makes me feel like that needs to change. And I need to do something about it. And everyone deserves the same attention that I, that I received. And everyone deserves their story to be heard. And everyone deserves, you know, to come home. Everyone deserves their chance at life.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  When did you come to kind of that realization? Obviously, this is, this has been an ever-evolving process for you, not only of how you have dealt with what happened to you and, and made sure you were okay and your family is okay. What made, like, you come to this realization that, okay, now I need, I need to take what's happened and like make something out of it? And then specifically, what, like, was there a case or a reason that? Like drew you to the Native American community specifically?

• 45:22Speaker 02

  So, like I said, I was, I haven't always been as heavily involved in speaking out or advocacy as I am now. But I mean, it kind of was baby steps. It was kind of like wading into the pool because truthfully, when I got home, I, I needed to heal. I needed to accept that my life was never going to be what it had once been. I could never go back and be the girl that I was before I was kidnapped. And so I had to really make peace with this new normal. There was no going backwards. I could only accept what was here and now. And that was actually really difficult for me. All of a sudden, everywhere I went, people knew my name. People were pointing at me, whispering about me, trying to take sneaky pictures

• 46:06Speaker 02

  of me. And I had been very shy. I had been a wallflower and I hated it. I hated it. I just wanted to be who I once had been. So it took me a while to really learn to become okay with it. But my dad, who, I mean, I, I think honestly, from the moment I was taken, he became an advocate. I mean, he has gone up to our state Capitol so many times to lobby and advocate for safety bills for children against rape. And he, on occasion, would ask me if I wanted to go with him. And I would always ask him, well, will it really make a difference if I'm there? And he's like, actually, yeah, because nobody

• 46:49Speaker 02

  knows better what it's like to experience this than you. You've experienced it. You know better than a lot of these legislators. But, but you've lived it. You understand it. So yeah, it will make a difference. And so little by little, I got more and more involved. And until now, I feel like I'm swimming out in the ocean about to be crushed by a tidal wave. So that's kind of how I got involved. And really, what really kind of pointed me, it was actually my own case that made a pretty big impact. I remember my case, I mean, it was in the state courts for years. And when my dad told Me the initial charges that they were being charged with. I was really angry because none of the charges included rape.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  Or, you know, sexual abuse of a minor. And initially, when I got home, I didn't want anyone to know that I'd been raped. I was very ashamed of what had happened to me. I didn't want people to know that I'd been forced to go naked. I didn't, I just didn't want people to know that anything like that had happened because I, I just wasn't confident enough in the world to believe that I would still be worthy if everyone knew. I felt like people would look at me differently, that I would somehow be, you know, less worthy than the girl sitting next to me to have friends or to be liked or, or even loved one day, and I wasn't ready to give that up. Now, looking back, part of me is like, well, that was silly. Because I'm sure everyone already knew.

• 48:19Speaker 02

  I was gone for nine months. I mean, even when girls go missing for just a few hours, or boys, you know, men and women, for just a few hours, I think everyone automatically jumps to the conclusion that rape has been a part of it. But I just didn't want to publicly confirm that. But then, I mean, it took so long, everything took so long in my case, that by the time it was like they were going to be charged with something, that wasn't one of the charges. And I was like, wait a second. That was so destructive to me. You're telling me that one of the most destructive things that they did to me, they won't actually get charged with? Of course, you know, my captors,

• 49:00Speaker 02

  their cases were moved to the federal courts and, I mean, we could duck while that for a while, but they ended up being prosecuted in the federal courts instead of the state courts. But it was actually my own case that made me start to really feel like I needed to speak out and do more. And as I started speaking out, you know, I've, I have now been to all fifty states and I've done presentations in all fifty states. And a lot of times when I do presentations, they'll be really close to reservations. And I generally have security at these events that I do. And so. You know, I want to know, you know, about that person. So we'll get into conversation and I will start talking about,

• 49:45Speaker 02

  you know, how many cases they work or because it's a lot of time. It's, you know, police officers who are providing me security or FBI officers who are providing me security. And so they'll talk about a lot of the issues that they face on the reservations. And then, I mean, there have also been people who have just come into my life, who have been like, this is really important. And they are not receiving attention. They are not receiving, their cases are not being pursued. I mean, you talk about the first 48 hours being some of the most important hours when a person disappears, but a lot of times it takes up to two weeks before their case is even given a file number.

• 50:28Speaker 02

  And so just, it's kind of just been all of these experiences put together that have just been made, made me feel like we need to change this. I mean, this should not be the issue that it is. There should not be this disparity between white blonde Caucasian, Caucasian blonde women versus Native American or indigenous populations or, or any race for that matter, whether they're, you know, African American or, or Latino or.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  I think it's, it's beautiful, like this trajectory you're on and this kind of transformation that you've made, obviously, like you didn't necessarily owe your voice to anyone, right? Like if what you had chose to do was like, I'm going to heal myself. And I think that's all you owed people, but to, to lend your voice in this way, I think is really meaningful. And you said something earlier, like for a minute, I wanted to just go back. I wanted to pretend it didn't happen and like, I realized I could never go back to my life. Have you ever thought about, I'm sure you did, what, like, what did you think your life, the trajectory was before this happened? Like, who would you have been now? And, you know, you probably lost, you know, you would be just something totally different. Like, what, what does that look like for you saying like, I had this whole other trajectory and someone else's decision changed mine?

• 51:40Speaker 02

  You know, I used to, I played, I grew up playing the harp. I grew up studying the harp and I thought I would study harp in school, which, I mean, I did, but then it was always my dream to go to Juilliard and study harp performance at Juilliard. And I always wanted to perform in Carnegie Hall. And, I mean, I just, I wanted to grow up and be a harpist and. I don't know that I thought much past that point, but I mean, you know, I also envisioned myself falling in love and getting married and having a family. And I mean, I, you know, I did fall in love. I have gotten married. I have kids. And I mean, that part's true, but it's certainly also in a very different, I mean, my life is very different to what

• 52:22Speaker 02

  I thought it would be. I mean, I kind of thought I would be, I mean, just like, nobody in particular, I'd just be me. Like, people wouldn't necessarily know my name, or I wouldn't have any kind of notoriety or popularity, or, or anything. And, and I was perfectly 100% fine with that.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  Everything started, right? Because you're like, my case was treated so differently. And they did so much to find me. But do you ever have any resentment towards law enforcement or the people who are searching? Because you know, I think about how easy, in my mind, it would be to be bitter, to say, you were close enough that I could hear your voice, but you didn't go a little bit further. Or, my sister told you exactly who it was, months before you found me. And you didn't take her seriously enough, and she's only a little girl. And like, what's she supposed to do? It was, it was law enforcement's job to take her seriously. Did you have a time now then that you had like, a resentment towards them for even as much as they did not doing enough?

• 53:21Speaker 02

  Uh, no. No.

• 53:23Speaker 01

  Really?

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• 55:39Speaker 02

  I've never, I've never had resentment towards law enforcement. I mean, even to this day, I have the utmost respect for them. I mean, yes, there are always troubling cases that we hear about maybe law enforcement making a wrong call or not being as sensitive as they should. But ultimately, I don't think anyone goes into law enforcement to make money. Just like no teacher goes into teaching to make money. They do it, I think, for the most part because they're genuinely good people and they want to help society. And so for me, I have the utmost respect and I'm so grateful to them for that and for the sacrifices that they do make, especially when you think about, I mean, my case alone, going through what I've experienced,

• 56:24Speaker 02

  I am really hesitant to watch other documentaries on victims. I mean, I'm really hesitant to watch dark movies. I do not watch horror movies. I do not watch scary movies. Even like emotional roller coaster kind of movies, like I don't want to watch them because...

• 56:46Speaker 02

  I want to be able to go to bed at night and fall asleep being okay. So even if it's like a movie where the child dies, I mean, every time a child dies in a movie, I'm like a waterfall. And my husband's always like, it's okay, you know, it's just pretend. I'm like, I know what these things happened in real life. I hate this. And so like at night, when, when my husband and I turn on the TV before going to bed or to unwind at the end of the day, it's always like comedy or lighthearted stuff. Or like, like probably my favorite all time show is the, is the British baking show. Like I have watched that so many times. I'm like, wow, they're so creative. How do they just do that? How do they just know?

• 57:31Speaker 01

  Frosting and dough.

• 57:33Speaker 02

  Like, I can't do that on my best day.

• 57:37Speaker 02

  So, and, and also because I have so many people disclose abuse to me that, who've never disclosed it to anyone else, that at the end of the day, I don't, I don't want, I need to find a balance in my life as much as I can. And so I don't typically watch, whether they're documentaries or movies or, or shows that, that kind of go into that world just because I need to be able to sleep at night. And I don't, I don't want to live in fear. So I have so much respect for these people, whether they're, you know, police officers or FBI agents, or they're advocates who work at advocacy centers, or therapists, or, you

• 58:17Speaker 02

  know, forensic psychologists, or like these nurses who do these rape kits, who keep coming back day after day after day, after seeing heartbreak and tragedy and just the worst side of humanity. And yet they keep coming back and there's still these good people trying to make a difference in the world. So for that reason alone, I mean, I have the greatest respect and admiration for them.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  And I think that's really like admirable of you because again, someone in your position, I think you had the right to be bitter if you want, you had the right to be angry, but to choose not to be, I think is something really special. You know, and like you said, people aren't getting into law enforcement to make money. Most of them have the best of intentions and and they know their job, right? They know their role when when a kid goes missing or when something happens, someone is assaulted. They know what they're supposed to do. One of the things that I really struggled with in you're learning about your story, a question that I don't have an answer to still, and I don't know if you have any thoughts on it, is more is civilians' responsibility. So there was one moment in the autobiography that the A and E one where this man who was

• 59:24Speaker 01

  at a party with you starts crying and he's like, you know, I want to apologize to her. I should have done more. I should have asked more questions. And where I kind of got really caught up in my own head was what is the balance? You know, on our show, we always say, you know, be weird, be rude, stay alive. But what is the balance between like something was off, right? Like seeing something that's off and and pushing, but also not pushing so hard that you're not you're not respecting like if you had if you hadn't been kidnapped, you know, you're somebody who you would have told him, no, I'm not Elizabeth Smart. No, like, leave me alone, leave me alone, leave me alone. Where's the line between like continually pushing and then like disrespecting someone's actual like will? I don't know. Do you just know in your gut when something is is wrong and you report it?

• 1:00:09Speaker 01

  I again, I totally spiraled out and I don't know if there's an answer.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  I mean, like that man on the documentary, like he shouldn't like he shouldn't feel bad. I mean, my captors, they would never have let anyone help me. They they wouldn't. They would have killed me before that happened and they would have killed anyone they had to before that happened. And I mean, I know, like, I remember after I got home, my mom kept telling me, well, Elizabeth, you know, your story was the biggest story since Charles Lindbergh's baby son was kidnapped. Your search was the biggest search that's ever been put on since the baby Lindbergh disappeared. Like, that's a huge period of time and that was all done for me.

• 1:00:54Speaker 02

  So, I mean, do I like blame civilians at all for not doing more? No. I mean, if anything, I have, once again, undying gratitude and respect for everything that was done. I mean, even to this day, when I go out to the grocery store. Probably every time I go to the grocery store, I have someone come up to me, even even in a pandemic, when I have like the mask on my face, people still come up to me and they're like, you're Elizabeth Smart, aren't you? I'm like, yeah. And they're like, I just want you to know that the day that you were rescued was the happiest day of my life and I searched for you while you were gone and I prayed for you every single night. And I mean, no, I I will always, always be grateful.

• 1:01:37Speaker 02

  I mean, so much has has been done for me, so much more than any other victim or survivor has been done for me. So, uh, no, I always will be grateful to that. And I mean, as far as finding that line and knowing where that line is, I think it's really hard. And so like, I'm not a highly confrontational person and I don't like conflict at all. And I hate hurting people's feelings. It makes me feel terrible and makes me feel terrible for like months after, even if it's something stupid. But I mean, for me, that's just, that's just how I am. I guess I just have a naturally guilty conscience. I don't know.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  My husband's like that.

• 1:02:22Speaker 02

  But um, I think if you see something and it just doesn't sit well with you, just call up the police. I mean, that's their job and they let them decide where that boundary is. Let them decide how far to push it and and not. I mean, that's what they're trained to do. And so if you see something, like, don't feel like you have to go and confront them. Maybe try to keep them in your sight, call the police, tell them what you see and then and then let them take it over from there.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  There was one chance where that that actually did happen for you, right? So at the library, when someone, it didn't really make news at the time because they checked it out, not Elizabeth Smart. What what was that specific scenario like for you to to be so close? Again, it's almost like the helicopters and calling your name so close, yet so far.

• 1:03:18Speaker 02

  It was like, once again, a tornado of emotion. Because like, part of me, it did seem like I was so close to being rescued. But by that point, I mean, I had been told so many times how they had killed me. They'd killed my family. And up until that point, they had really seemed invincible. I mean, every time they threatened me with something, they, they always followed through with it. Like, there was no reason in my mind why they would not follow through with what they had threatened me before. And so it was almost just like that fear and those threats were, felt paralyzing to me.

• 1:04:00Speaker 02

  And I remember Wanda Barzee, her hand just clamping down on my leg as this homicide detective was questioning my, my captors. And it was just, it was just like that physical reminder was almost like being kidnapped all over again and reminding me what my captors were capable of and what they, what they would do, the lengths that they would go to, to make sure that I wasn't rescued, to make sure that I, um, stayed in their control. And they were very, very, they were very good manipulators.

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  I mean, like, so Wanda Barzee, she didn't, she didn't say anything because I had been told that I was not allowed to speak out in public. And so to make it seem like it was part of our religion, Brian Mitchell also told Wanda Barzee that she could not speak out in, in public. And of course, she supported that because ultimately, he told her what she wanted to hear. And he told her how special she was, so she went along with him. And so she wouldn't speak out, so it was only him speaking for both of us. And, I mean, he, I think even back to that time period, you know, it was not that long after nine eleven had happened. And I think everyone, first of all, I think religion has always been.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  A sensitive topic. And I think especially then it was it was a very sensitive topic in that really any form of extremism was just avoided. And my captor, I think he knew that and he capitalized on that. So he just kept saying, you know, this is part of my religion. This is my daughter. This is my wife. No, I cannot unveil her. I cannot show you her face. That would be against our religion. And the only people that will ever see her face are me, her father and her future husband. And you are neither. And that would be violating her if if she were to show you her face.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  And so, I mean, he just kept on hammering that point across. Until finally, the the police officer, I mean, he was convinced and he turned around and he walked away. And it was it was devastating. I mean, it felt like I was so close. And then to see him just turn around and walk away. I knew that I wouldn't be let out in public again. Until my captors took me to Southern California, because that's why we were in the library to begin with. They were talking about new places to go because kidnapping one girl. Plus, and enough, they were actually going to kidnap seven young girls and we were we're all going to become his his seven young wives. I mean, we could we could go down that rabbit hole, but

• 1:06:57Speaker 02

  for time's sake, they decided that, you know, we really couldn't stay in Utah through the winter. We just couldn't survive the winter and the snow and the cold. And so we would need to go somewhere warm and that had the added bonus of of finding someone new to kidnap. And so they'd gone to the library to look at maps to find somewhere to go. And that's where we were there. It's where they, I say we, huh? I didn't decide anything. Where my captors decided to take me to Southern California. And after that, I mean, he took me back up to the hidden campsite and I was not I he did not bring me back down to Salt Lake until the day we left.

• 1:07:39Speaker 02

  And then, once even we went to San Diego, he took me, they found a new, like it was like a dried riverbed. And he hid me there and I was only let out. I mean, Maybe once a week, maybe once every other week. And it was always with there. I mean, I was never let alone. I was never left alone, ever, during my entire nine months. I mean, there was always one of them with me, if not both of them.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  You know, we obviously talked a lot about like the psychological warfare and the reasons you felt like even in a public place with an FBI agent standing in front of you, the reasons that you didn't say anything or felt you couldn't say anything. I think one of the things that I don't hear talked about a lot, people relate it so specifically to Elizabeth thought, you know, these people would kill her or her family, which is 100% true. But I think it speaks to something bigger. And I'm interested if you agree on women feeling like they can be believed. I mean, so much of your story is about being a sexual assault survivor. And I think one of the biggest issues is it doesn't matter if the person's sitting

• 1:08:49Speaker 01

  next to you, there is this inherent fear, I think, in so many victims that I will come forward, I will, I will tell this truth of how I was broken and no one's going to believe me. And I think that's still something that, that women, even men, victims are suffering from constantly.

• 1:09:08Speaker 02

  Oh, that is the number one comment that I get through speaking, through meeting with survivors, through the foundation and the different initiatives that we work on. That is the number one comment that we get is that no one believes me, or I'm afraid to tell people because I don't think anyone will believe me, or because they know who did this and they like them, they won't believe me. I mean, it is so common. I mean, we have a whole campaign built around that. It's, it's our November through December campaign and it's, it's called We Believe You. And it's encouraging the public to take this pledge because.

• 1:09:50Speaker 02

  If you haven't experienced, I hope, I hope the majority of people listening to this podcast, I hope they haven't experienced rape, or sexual violence, or kidnapping, or domestic abuse. I, I hope so much they haven't, but if they haven't, they know someone who has, whether they know they know them or not, I mean, whether that person has disclosed to them or not, they know someone. I mean, that's just how prevalent it is in today's society. And so our whole campaign is about trying to help educate the public on what it is to be a survivor. How can we be a better community? How can we support our victims and survivors a bit more?

• 1:10:33Speaker 02

  How can we rise above victim blaming and victim shaming? And, um, you know, we want everyone to jump on board and take our pledge, where we pledge to believe our survivors, we believe you, um, where we, you know, will offer them support and where we offer them, you know, love and a safe place to fall. Because we, we all need each other. I mean, there are very few people in this world that can, can survive without human contact. I mean, there are, there are some, like I, I won't say everyone, but most of us, we need each other. And so, yeah.

• 1:11:17Speaker 02

  And so we need to, I mean, we, we absolutely need to do a better job on how we respond when someone discloses abuse to us, when someone shares literally the worst moments of their life. Because how you respond can dictate the future of whether or not they go out and get the help that they need and pursue justice, or whether they bottle it back up inside them and have it destroy them from the inside out. And that's, that's a pretty big influence.

• 1:11:46Speaker 01

  It is. So what are some of the ways as, so again, hoping that the people of hearing this, this hasn't happened, but knowing that it, even if it hasn't happened to them, it's probably happened to someone they know. What are the things that you recommend? What can other people do to support survivors?

• 1:12:01Speaker 02

  First of all, if a survivor discloses something to you, just listen to them. I know it's natural to have curiosity. And when I first got back, I mean, people always used to ask me questions. Well, why didn't you run? Why didn't you scream? Why didn't you, you know, why didn't you escape? Why didn't you do something? And for years and years and years, I didn't understand why I would immediately feel so defensive when I hear the words, "Why didn't you?" But as I got a little older, I started to realize it's not because I was hearing their question, but because my brain was hearing it as, "You should have run. You should have screamed. You should have done more." Those words, "Why didn't you?" seemed to imply that I didn't do enough.

• 1:12:45Speaker 02

  Whereas in my experience, I was like, "I don't regret a single decision I made because I survived. I'm here." Like, don't you think? It was not a vacation. Don't you think I wanted to be rescued before nine months was up? I mean, nine months, that's a long time. And so, you know, I, I was extremely defensive about it for years. And so now, when someone discloses something to you, I'm very specific in saying, "Do not ask questions that begin with the words, 'Why didn't you?'" Because the survivor or victim, they won't hear, "Why didn't you?" They won't hear the question. They'll hear an accusation.

• 1:13:29Speaker 02

  They'll hear, "You should have. You didn't do enough. This is somehow your fault. You should have been able to get away." And that's wrong, and that's unfair. And I know that most people mean it from a place of, just a place of curiosity and genuineness. It's not them trying to be rude or hurtful. But as a victim, that's actually what it ends up feeling like.

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• 1:16:10Speaker 02

  So don't even bother asking questions unless the survivor tells you it's okay. Ask questions. Be their friend. Call them up and be like, hey, how are you feeling today? Like, are you okay? Like, let's, let's hang out or, you know, like, let's, I mean, hanging out might be a little bit harder these days, but, you know, let's, let's go to the park. Let's go for a walk. Like, let's go out to dinner. Like, just being there for them is going to be the first step. I mean, talking, telling them, being like, you know, this really, this is not okay, and I believe you, and I'm here for you. And do you want me to go with you to report this? Do you want me, would you like me to go with you to therapy sessions?

• 1:16:55Speaker 02

  Just being there as a support, I mean, and, and, you know, ask them, you know, is, is there something you would like me to do? A lot of times, you know, victims are, are able to tell you what's okay and what's not okay. But, um, sitting back and just looking at them and being like, well, you know, she was a bit of a partier, so she was asking for it. That's wrong. Nobody ever wakes up and says, hmm, today feels like a good day to be raped. No, nobody thinks that. Nobody wants that. So let's start just by being a little bit more compassionate and start by believing. I mean, the cases when a victim

• 1:17:37Speaker 02

  discloses and they turn out to be false are so, so small, and their stories almost always unravel right at the very beginning. I mean, you do not put yourself in this situation in like the hopes for attention or popularity or fame because it is painful, it is so painful already. You, you don't do it. Like, the number, the percentage of false reports are so small, you will always be 100% safer believing them, believing that it's true.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  I love that you were able to come to a place where you can say, I don't regret a single thing I did because I'm here because I can see so many victims spiraling and if I wouldn't have, even before it happened, right? If I wouldn't have done this, if I wouldn't have been here, if I wouldn't have wore that, if I wouldn't have, you know, and I think that's a place that you can easily get lost in. But to say like, if you came out of it alive and you have the chance to be you and rebuild you and whatever that takes, like you won. You did everything that you were supposed to do. And in your story, I mean, there was you, you didn't just like let it happen to you, you know, as much as they tried to control you. I think one of the coolest parts is, is how you got found

• 1:18:57Speaker 01

  was because of you. You took everything that he taught you about how to be a master manipulator and kind of reversed that back on him. So can you talk a little bit about how you decided, like, I need to get back to Salt Lake and here's how I'm going to get him to think it was his idea?

• 1:19:13Speaker 02

  Yeah. And I just want to make one more comment. Sorry, because you said something that just I think is so important to say in regards to victims not blaming themselves or if I would have done this or if I would have done that. None of these crimes, none of these things that happen like rape, sexual violence, kidnapping, domestic abuse, human trafficking, none of these crimes are self inflicted crimes. These are crimes always perpetrated by another person. And it's that other person. Like you don't choose these things to happen. And it's not, it's not your fault. These were the choices of another

• 1:19:52Speaker 02

  person that hurt you. And I just wish that every victim and survivor could hear that and understand that. I mean, yes, you can sit and spend a whole lifetime. I could sit and spend a whole lifetime thinking, well, you know, I went around and checked the doors and windows with my dad that night, but I guess we missed one window. I should have gone back and double checked it. My dad should have gone back and double checked it. When they were building the house, they shouldn't have put that window right there. You know, we could have avoided this whole situation if they just placed that window somewhere else. Or, I mean, you know, if I had just screamed, why didn't I scream? If I had just, you know, instead of just going with him when he told me to wake up and come with him that night when he put the knife to my neck, if I had just screamed, would he have really killed me? Or would he have turned and run and been in a rush to get out of

• 1:20:37Speaker 02

  the house? I mean, like, I could spend the rest of my life thinking that way. That would be honestly, probably pretty easy. But

• 1:20:46Speaker 02

  It's done, it's over with, it happened, I'm still alive, I'm still here. And I'm not doing myself any favors by going back and blaming myself for what happened. Because at the end of the day, it was not my decision to be kidnapped. It was not my decision to be raped, to be chained up, to have food and water withheld from me. It was the decisions and choices of other people. And I just wish that every victim and survivor could understand that. What's happened to you is is not your choice, even if it was a boyfriend that raped you. Even if it was uh someone that you knew that took you. Even if it was someone that you were texting with, that you met on an app and you're like, yeah, I'd love to go out with you. Like, let's meet up.

• 1:21:30Speaker 02

  Or someone that, I mean, you you send a naked photo to. I mean, it is still not your fault. Just because you made these other decisions, it is not your fault for being raped. It is not, it is not your fault for for being abused, for being hurt. That, those decisions, those crimes, lie solely on the perpetrator, on the person that did these things to you. And I just, I wish people could understand that. Because the amount of shame and self blaming and guilt that survivors have is crippling and devastating. And I I just wish that they could understand, it's not their fault. So now that I've gotten off that soapbox.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  No, that that's the biggest thing that I think that you can reiterate for people is the the shame aspect. And where I get, I get so caught up in it too, is it's so hard for me to get it through to someone that this had nothing to do with you. To your point, I don't care that you were drunk at a party. You, that doesn't mean, that doesn't give someone the right to take advantage of who you are. And if they did, that doesn't make you any less. Like, I've been drunk at a party, like, but just because I didn't get raped, like somehow I have no, no shame in that. You know what I mean? Like, and I don't know the best way to be an advocate and a support system for people who have gone through. Because I just want, I just wanna hug them and say like this has nothing to do with you.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  It kinda goes back to what my mom said, right? Like it's, it's not, it's not you. It's, it's the rest of the world. And it was, it was someone else's choice that put this on you. And how fucking dare they have done that? But it has nothing to do with, with who you are and you as a person and in who you still can be and who you still are, even though that person feels completely different than the one that was there before this happened to. No, I think, I think it was wonderful what you hit on. So can you talk to us a little bit though about how you, you made the decision to like, I've got to get back to Salt Lake? And specifically, I, I think there was like some renewed like public interest too. Like it's weird to me how this like played hand in hand, right? Like there was like this article that came out about you.

• 1:23:45Speaker 01

  You are getting yourself back to Salt Lake. And it was like all of these things like lined up, but something that you had a big hand in to like make sure you got back safe.

• 1:23:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, so while we were in California, my captors, they actually did try to kidnap another girl. Thank goodness they were not successful in it. And so they started to say, well, California is clearly not the place we need to go to kidnap a girl. We need to go somewhere else. And they were talking about these big cities like New York and Boston. And I just remember thinking, oh my goodness, like no one is ever gonna recognize me there. No one found me in Utah. No one's found me in California. I mean, if I ever wanna be rescued, then I need, I mean, my best chance of rescue is, is to get back to Utah. And even if I'm not rescued, I'm at least physically closer to my home and to my family.

• 1:24:41Speaker 02

  And so as they're saying these places, I just, I just remember thinking, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do? And then I remember thinking, well, they, um, they use religion and God all the time to justify what they do. And nobody needs to tell me that's wrong. I know that's wrong. But maybe if it can work for them, it can work. For me, just one time, and then I'll never do it again. And so I, I mean, I remember turning around and being like, oh, you know, I just have this feeling like this feeling won't leave me alone, but it's like we're supposed to return to Salt Lake, but I know that I am just, you know, I am,

• 1:25:22Speaker 02

  I am too wicked, like I'm too sinful. God would never speak to me. God would never, like I am just, I am just too unworthy. But this feeling won't leave me alone. Do you think you could ask God if uh, we're supposed to return to Salt Lake? Cause I know he'll tell you because you know, you're his, he's a prophet and he'll tell you. And you know, you, you are his mouthpiece here on earth. I just know he'll tell you. And honestly, if, if there was another miracle in all this, it was in that moment because then he turned around and he's like, oh, yeah, I think you're right. I think we should go back to Salt Lake. And so that's actually how it was decided, how we would

• 1:26:02Speaker 02

  go back to Salt Lake and uh, we ended up hitchhiking back, which was also my idea. I mean, they'd always been like, oh, well, you just thought you were so good before you were kidnapped. You just thought you were so righteous, but you have to realize you're not better than anyone else out there. So you know, that's why you, you're going to drink this alcohol, basically till you pass out. And that's why you're going to um, go naked all day today. And uh, that's why you, you're gonna have to smoke these cigarettes or, or this pot. And um, you know, that's, that's why you have to experience all these things is to help you realize that you're just not better than anyone else.

• 1:26:39Speaker 02

  Well, they actually had kept like a record of all of their travels that they had done before they had kidnapped me. And slowly it, I mean, initially they started in a home, then they built like a, a house on wheels. They called it their hand house. Then they went down to like a hand cart. Then they just, they were instructed to rely upon the Lord's people and their generosity and they would pick them up and take them, the Lord would provide for them. And they would take them from place to place through hitchhiking. And what a trial that was. And so, I mean, I like, it's not funny, but honestly, there were some times that I didn't know which was worse.

• 1:27:23Speaker 02

  Being actually raped or just listening to them talk all the time. It never ended and they had told me all this stuff. They told me all their experiences. And I remember, um, I remember just being like, well, I know I'm not supposed to talk about my family. I know I'm not supposed to talk about my life, you know, prior to being rescued. But, um, you know, my parents, they always picked me up and dropped me off. Like, I never had to rely on public transportation. I mean, I think it's probably important for me to experience hitchhiking. Cause in my mind, it's like, oh, you know, like we'll be in close proximity with lots of different people.

• 1:28:08Speaker 02

  Surely someone's gonna notice that something's not right here. And Wanda Barzee, she didn't really like, well, no, Brian Mitchell, he really didn't like that idea initially. But Wanda Barzee, she didn't like the thought of me ever having an easier life than her on any level. And so she was like, oh, I think she's right. This is another test of faith. This is another stepping stone in our spiritual journey. She needs to see what God can do. And actually, that is how it was decided. We not only would return back to Salt Lake, but we would hitchhike back as well.

• 1:28:41Speaker 01

  Unreal. So that when you're recognized, when was the moment when you realized that this was something different than what had happened in the library before?

• 1:28:49Speaker 02

  It was when, um, the one police officer separated me from my captors. It was when he separated me, when he started to ask me questions by himself. And they weren't with me, cause I mean, they had been so close to me. They'd been standing on either side of me that they were physically touching both shoulders. Um, and it was when I was separated from them and they weren't touching me anymore. And this officer, he finally was like, you know what? There's this girl, she's been missing now for a very long time, her family, they love her more than anything. They want her to come home. They've never stopped searching for her. Aren't you ready to go home? And that was like, finally when I was like, oh my gosh, like, he knows who I am. Like, I'm actually gonna be rescued. It's gonna be okay.

• 1:29:35Speaker 02

  Um, and so that is when I was finally able to admit who I was. But of course, I was then handcuffed and put in the back of the car, which made me think, oh, my gosh, I did the wrong thing. If they thought I was innocent, they would not handcuff me. And I was taken to the police station, which just seemed to confirm that. I was like, I'm going to jail. I'm going to prison. Whereas I thought, you know, he had said, oh, you know, they want you. Aren't you ready to go home? Like he had mentioned home. I thought he was going to take me home. And he didn't. So I was just like, oh, I've done, I've, I've, you know, I'm, I'm wrong. I shouldn't have said anything. I'm going to jail now.

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  When was the moment where you finally felt like you could like, you could breathe again and it, and you realized that it really was over?

• 1:30:16Speaker 02

  When my dad came to the police station and he came into the room. And he was hugging me and honestly, it was more like suffocating me. But it was in that moment, I still didn't know what the future held. But I knew that it was going to be okay because he was there. And he was never going to let another person hurt me the way that my two captors had hurt me the last nine months.

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Nothing like a daddy's love.

• 1:30:44Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:30:45Speaker 01

  What was it like for you in two thousand eighteen? When Wanda got released, like what was that feeling for you? And was there something about her with Brian Mitchell that made her dangerous? Do you think she's a danger on her own?

• 1:30:59Speaker 02

  I was disappointed. I was very disappointed. It made my husband and I, you know, completely redo all of our security, completely rethink about where we were living. Um, just kind of take sort of every aspect of our lives into account again, you know, into safety review. Um, it was a disappointment. It was a disappointment to see that she was released.

• 1:31:26Speaker 02

  And and honestly, it still is because she never stood up for me. You know, she was right there, you know, watching me be raped and she had been married before. She had a prior marriage in which she had six children of her own and they were all older than me. And yet she was still okay with watching, honestly, this little girl being raped. And so in my mind, that just makes me feel like she was every bit as guilty as Brian Mitchell. And so for me, when she was released, I felt like it was, you know, the legal system letting me down.

• 1:32:10Speaker 02

  But I will say that it also gave me a, not that I didn't already have compassion for all of these victims who never see any form of justice or where their perpetrators just get like a slap on the wrist or nothing happens. Um, I already had compassion for them. But I think it also gave me a greater compassion and a greater understanding for what they go through and to feel how, you know, we call our, our system in America, our justice system, but it's not really justice, it's just a legal system. I mean, someone told me that, like, I wish I could take credit for that, but I can't.

• 1:32:54Speaker 02

  Someone told me, you know, we have, we have a legal system, we don't have a justice system. Because can you ever really replace what's been taken after you've been raped? After you've been kidnapped, after you've been abused, can you ever really fix that? Can you ever really receive true, you know, restitution or compensation? Or have that piece of, that piece of you given back? Your life go back to the way it was before? You really can't. And so. I feel like it just made me feel even more passionate about doing everything I'm doing now.

• 1:33:32Speaker 01

  Is there advice or anything that you tell other survivors whose perpetrators either didn't get arrested at all, didn't serve a day in jail, or got out? Is there anything that you tell people on how they can feel safe again? I mean, because I would imagine it feels violating all over to have to worry, to have to even think like, are they gonna come back for me? The fact that you had to like, think about where you were living and your security system, to me, is going through all of it again and in a new way. So how do you advise those people who come forward to you who never got that of, how do you feel safe?

• 1:34:07Speaker 02

  I mean, first of all, I think it's important to have a support group. And, you know, I think, I mean, like, I'm a huge fan of therapy. Because I, like, my initial reaction is to say, trust your gut. You know, do things that make you feel safe. If you don't feel safe, leave, or, you know, make sure you have a way to leave. But also recognize that that can, you know, that can end up leading to people being, you know, trapped inside their home for years because they don't feel safe leaving their home. So, I mean, I would say, make sure you have your support group. Make sure you have some good help, whether that is in the form of, you know, conventional therapy, or, or, you know, like, there's so many different modalities of therapy these days. You know, we've got EMDR therapy, we've got, you know, Ecoin therapy.

• 1:34:49Speaker 02

  There's just so many that if you try one and you don't like it, try something else, or maybe try the same form with a different therapist. I mean, you know, there is, there are as many different types as there are people. And so you just have to keep trying until you find what works for you. But, I mean, come up with a plan for yourself that still allows you to live life and enjoy life and be able to be an active participant in it, but where you also have your boundaries and you know what your safe boundaries are. And when someone crosses that, you have a plan and you know what to do. I mean, first of all, I will shamelessly plug the Elizabeth Smart Foundation yet again.

• 1:35:33Speaker 02

  One of our other initiatives is, is Smart defense and um you know it's all about helping women be able to defend themselves, but also giving them the the knowledge, not just the physical training, but the knowledge to understand, you know, what's okay, what's not okay, where can rape come from, what are defend your or stand your ground laws? Um, you know, when is it okay to fight back? Or when is it okay to defend yourself? Or, you know, if you're in a grocery, like if you've got your arm full of groceries, what do you do? And making sure it's an active part of your life. There are some other great resources out in, you know, on social media. There are great accounts to follow. I mean, and also like there's like some accounts that I just that I like.

• 1:36:19Speaker 02

  Um, there's one that's called it's okay to not be okay. And I mean, they're all about suicide prevention. And honestly, I look at their posts every day and I just like, I just appreciate like when they like, put something up and it's like, you know, it is okay to not be okay. It's okay to say no, it's okay to ask for help or, you know, whatever they post for that day. I appreciate that. You know, I've got another friend who she's she's a survivor of she was stabbed multiple times. Like she could have bled out and she fought the guy off her. She started her own movement. It's called the Bea movement and and they're on Instagram as well. And she's always posting great information. So like find these different accounts, find, you know, like check out your security. There's inexpensive alarm systems.

• 1:37:04Speaker 02

  Um, there's, you know, make sure you like, for instance, on your phone, like, probably one of my favorite apps is find my friends. And um, you know, it may gives me peace of mind to know, like, for instance, you know, I live in Utah. It's a pretty snowy place and sometimes if my husband's not home from work, I'm like, where is he? He should be home now. Did he get in an accident? Maybe it's paranoia once again, but you know, I like knowing where he's at. And then also, like, if I'm not home, I like to know that he knows where I'm at. So if something happened, he, you know, he knows at least where to begin looking for me.

• 1:37:45Speaker 01

  We call it being pre-paranoid because we're crime junkies. We're always going to be paranoid, but at least we can be a little prepared.

• 1:37:50Speaker 02

  I like that. I can get on board 100% with that. I like to be pre-paranoid. That's perfect.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Are there any final thoughts or things we didn't cover specifically related to your work with other survivors? Because that's, that's really what I want this episode to be about. So is there anything we didn't touch on that you would like to say and make sure gets into that episode?

• 1:38:13Speaker 02

  I mean, I feel like we, we have touched on really, to some degree, all of our initiatives, or at least all of our focuses right now. But I just, I mean, I just want to really stress again to all these victims and survivors that what has happened to you is, is not your fault. That was a decision made by someone else to hurt you and you don't bear responsibility for that. Um, and that you are lovable and you are worthy and you have every much bit of right as, as everyone else to have joy and have peace and to live your life to the fullest.

• 1:38:51Speaker 02

  You deserve that and that it, you can, you can share what's happened to you. You don't have to be embarrassed of it. You don't have to be ashamed of it. You can speak out and you doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have to be on the same level as everyone else. Maybe it's just telling one other person, but you don't need to feel like you have to keep that bottled up inside you. You can share that. You can let that out and there are people out there who will believe you. And there are so many amazing, you know, different advocacy centers, shelters, law enforcement that are there for you to help you move forward in any way that you need help. They are there for you. Don't be afraid to ask for help.

• 1:39:36Speaker 02

  We all need each other. We all need to ask for help sometimes. You're not alone.

• 1:39:41Speaker 01

  Thank you, Elizabeth. And I know you talk about this all the time, but I still, I hate having to make you do it again. So I really appreciate your time that you were willing to do this.

• 1:39:50Speaker 02

  Oh, thank you. It was a pleasure. Thank you for, yeah, allowing me to come on and talk about my foundation and talk about what we're doing. And I'm excited again to come on again. And yes, thank you. Thank you for everything and for your support and sharing everything. And if I go missing files and everything, just thank you so much. I like, I really, truly mean it.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:40:56Speaker 01

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

• 1:41:06Speaker 04

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir. And that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker. Every stranger carries a secret and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather around, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.