MISSING: Bonnie Lee Schultz Part 2

Before dawn on July 4, 1997, Bonnie Lee Schultz was driving home after a late night out with friends. She was never seen again. For nearly 30 years, Indianapolis investigators suspected her husband’s involvement in her disappearance, but with no sign of Bonnie or her car, the case went cold. Could detectives have overlooked an unidentified predator who targeted her?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ashley Flowers?

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• 3:01Ashley Flowers?

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• 3:20Ashley Flowers?

  Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. And we're back with part two of Bonnie's story. If you missed last week's episode, pause, go back. You gotta know where we've been to know where we're going, because where we left off, I am sure it's easy for you to understand why people have been suspicious of Bonnie's husband since she went missing in 1997. Bonnie and Rick's son, Josh, even admitted to us that for a portion of his life growing up, he wondered if his dad could have done something, because he had everyone in his ear telling him as much. He said he would even be willing to accept that his dad did it if police could prove it, show him any evidence, even a theory of how that actually makes sense,

• 4:03Ashley Flowers?

  and show him that they've looked into everyone else. But they didn't. So we tried to. And I think there is an entirely different side to this story that hasn't been told until now.

• 4:48Ashley Flowers?

  When I say that police never really looked into anyone else because they were so suspicious of Rick, I also want to be clear that I don't think they ever really did a thorough enough look at Rick to justify their suspicions. They never searched his house in those early years. They only searched it in 2000, when Rick was getting the house ready to sell. The police, I guess, had heard that he changed out the carpet and there might have been a stain on the subfloor, so they got a warrant, ripped up the carpet, tested the stain, but it wasn't any kind of bodily fluid. They didn't do any kind of forensic testing in the garage, which like, in my mind, if your theory is that he followed her, wouldn't it make sense that something happened in the garage?

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Right.

• 5:29Ashley Flowers?

  No one even bothers to check for that.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  So they're really just basing their suspicions on Rick on like, what? The fact that she wanted a divorce and the number one mom necklace that Gretchen gave investigators? Like, that's not a lot.

• 5:41Ashley Flowers?

  And I think the fact that he knew where to look for her and on the route that we know she drove home. And also, I didn't mention this yet, but on phone records. Bonnie had a cellphone with her, and Rick said that he tried to call her when she was missing. But police say that the home phone records don't show any calls, and the cellphone provider says that there had been no activity on Bonnie's cell since like, a day or two before she went missing. But, the problem I have with this is they never got Rick's cellphone records. And when we asked to see Bonnie's records to prove that there were no unanswered incoming calls, the police said they don't have them. They said there was like, some kind of issue getting the records from the phone company, so they were just told verbally by her provider.

• 6:26Ashley Flowers?

  Which, I don't know, I've seen enough human error over the years that like that is not gonna like convince it or I'm not gonna convict someone for that based on.

• 6:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I also wonder what the cell provider actually logged, like did unanswered incoming calls even register back then? I mean, there's so many questions.

• 6:45Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know for sure, since we could not obviously get the actual records. And I know every provider is different and we're talking 1997, that's a whole different beast. But I mean, I've seen in other true crime cases that date back to the 90s where back then it would only log the calls that would be charged. And you were only charged if you placed the call or answered the incoming call.

• 7:05Speaker 01

  If it was like an actual connected call.

• 7:07Ashley Flowers?

  Now, the other thing that I see police spend time asking Rick about in like the transcripts that we got is a financial motive for wanting his wife gone. Before Bonnie went missing, the couple cashed out on a life insurance policy for like $18,000. And they spent a lot of time talking about this check that came for that, it came after Bonnie disappeared. But it's like not spicy at all to me. Rick had taken out a loan against his like profit sharing plan at his company. And without getting to the weeds on this, it would basically be like taking out money against your 401k or something. And he was thinking about changing jobs, but if he changed jobs before it was paid off, there would be this really big penalty. So they cashed out the life insurance policy that would, by the way, was on Rick.

• 7:49Ashley Flowers?

  And they did it together. People knew that Bonnie was aware of it.

• 7:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:53Ashley Flowers?

  Some say that she had to kind of be like talked into it, but she was aware of it.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  And like it's a financial decision, maybe she legitimately did need to be talked into it, right?

• 8:01Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and investigators confirmed that the money did go to paying off that profit sharing thing. So it's not like he's making money off her going missing.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  Did she have any other life insurance policies?

• 8:12Ashley Flowers?

  She did, she had two and they totaled like 50 grand, but those are life insurance. Like you get paid out when someone is dead, not if someone just goes missing. So while he does end up getting that, he doesn't see a dime of that until he has Bonnie declared dead seven years later in 2004.

• 8:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess I don't think money is the driving thing here, no matter what happens.

• 8:34Ashley Flowers?

  Agreed, agreed. I mean, they never had a lot of money, not before Bonnie went missing, not after, but they also didn't have money problems. They lived within their means, they tried to take care of their kids, and Rick carried that on after Bonnie was gone. The kids lived with him in Indy and then in Kalamazoo, Michigan, where Rick eventually moved in 2000 for a new job. And it was probably a good, fresh start for him and for Gretchen and Josh, though Josh didn't go right away. He was 18 by that point. He stayed behind in Indy for a couple of years. But it was good because here in Indy, there was always this cloud of suspicion hanging over Rick, but without investigators ever really pulling the trigger. So it's like he can't clear his name. You just like live in this weird limbo.

• 9:17Speaker 01

  And did they ever do any more interviews with him, like even ask him about some of the weird stuff?

• 9:24Ashley Flowers?

  It doesn't seem like they asked him about the weird stuff, at least, well, at least not for a long time. In 2007, the Law Enforcement Division of the Marion County Sheriff's Department and the Indianapolis Police Department, so they were two different agencies at the time, they consolidated, and that's what we now know as IMPD, and that is who is the lead agency today. So around that time, that's when Detective Catherine Byron finally goes up to Michigan and has another conversation with Rick, like 10 years in the making. And Josh gave us that transcript as well. So I figured you should hear exactly what Rick had to say. Now, again, I would have loved for you to hear it from his own mouth, but our records request from IMPD was denied, right? So we're having voice actors read this transcript.

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• 11:23Ashley Flowers?

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• 13:38Speaker 02

  This is a taped statement being conducted by Catherine Byron of the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department. Today's date is April 25, 2007. The time is now approximately 10:25 a.m., and we are located in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Present are myself and Mr. Richard Schultz. Okay, um, I guess this is a meeting that's been, what, 10 years in the making?

• 14:04Speaker 03

  Pretty close.

• 14:05Speaker 02

  And I called you about, what, six weeks ago?

• 14:08Speaker 03

  Something like that, yes.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  Completely out of the blue, right?

• 14:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 14:12Speaker 02

  So, this is really other than that initial phone call and a couple of scheduling phone calls here and there. This is really the first time we've had an opportunity to talk.

• 14:23Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 14:24Speaker 02

  Okay, and, and I am recently the new detective reassigned to your wife's case, Bonnie, the missing persons case. Um, I know it's been ten years, but, uh, what can you remember? What can you tell me about that? Can you just kind of start from the beginning for me?

• 14:40Speaker 03

  Uh, well, again, the night of July third, nineteen ninety-seven, uh, Bonnie was going out with people she worked with. I believe it was somebody's birthday party for somebody she worked with. Um, I don't even remember where she said they were going. Um, but she left the house at eight, eight-thirty in the evening. Um, and again, went, went with, uh, people from work who, again, because of the nature of her work, I, I didn't know any of them because they worked late night evenings and I was home with the kids.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Right, um, and, and again, I know it's been ten years, so, um, what did you do? What, what's your best recollection of that evening?

• 15:25Speaker 03

  I was home with Gretchen. I'm pretty sure Josh spent the night with friends, but Gretchen and I were at home. I don't remember specifically what we did. I don't remember necessarily going anywhere, but, uh, she was only ten. So, um, we were at home. She went to bed whatever time she normally did. Um, she got up the next morning, I think around eight, eight-thirty or something like that, that's her normal time. Bonnie wasn't home yet and, uh, I didn't know specifically who she had gone out with the night before. So, um, I waited a little while to see if, you know, if she maybe stayed somewhere else and was going to come home.

• 16:10Speaker 03

  And then started looking around the house for, trying to find a list of names of people she worked with. And, uh, So later that day in the afternoon, um, and I don't remember exactly when in the afternoon. I think I found the list of some of the people and Anita's name was on there. That's the lady she said that she was going out with. Uh, I called her house a couple of times and got no answer. And then later that day, which would be the fourth of July. Anita's daughter called and said that my number had come up on her caller ID a couple of times. I said I was trying to get ahold of her mom to see if she knew where Bonnie was.

• 16:52Speaker 03

  And Anita's daughter must have called her and then I talked to Anita. And she said, well, as far as she knew, Bonnie had headed home. So that that's when I called the sheriff's department to file a missing persons report late afternoon on July 4th. And a squad car person, that's not the right term, but uh, came over and uh, took the statement. And uh, said that somebody would be in contact with me in a day or two.

• 17:22Ashley Flowers?

  Now, just jumping in real quick, I gave you the short version last time of how he got in contact with Anita. But this is similar to the story that he told 10 years prior. So so far, everything is pretty consistent.

• 17:34Speaker 02

  Uh, I I guess at what point did you start to think something was not right?

• 17:39Speaker 03

  As soon as I talked to Anita, I think, because she had said Bonnie had headed home. And I knew she hadn't gotten there. So obviously that was my, when I got concerned. Because you know, I thought maybe if again, they partied too much or whatever, she stayed with a friend. And uh, would get home sooner or later that that next day. But um, once uh, that lady told me that uh, that wasn't the case. And that's, that's what triggered the call to the sheriff's department.

• 18:13Speaker 02

  Is that a common occurrence?

• 18:15Speaker 03

  No.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  That Bonnie wouldn't come home?

• 18:17Speaker 03

  Not at all. So that's why when I woke up the next morning, or when Gretchen woke up, I don't remember exactly who got up first. I realized she wasn't there. So then I was trying to find out, uh, again, who she might have been with, or a phone number, or whatever, but, um, it took me a while to find some stuff around the house.

• 18:41Ashley Flowers?

  Right, that was really kind of before everybody had a cellphone.

• 18:44Speaker 03

  Well, actually, she did have a phone.

• 18:46Ashley Flowers?

  Did she?

• 18:47Speaker 03

  She did have a cellphone. And, and again, we tried to call that and, um, got no answer. And, uh, I don't remember who the service was with, but for several weeks after that, I called them on a daily basis to see if there had been any activity on the, on the line. Because first of all, they said, well, you have to wait till you get your statement. I said, well, I don't want to wait a month. Then I could explain the situation. And then I, I was calling every day, or every other day, to see if anything, or if anybody had used the phone during the course of that time. It hadn't been used at all.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Hold up, was Detective Byron playing dumb about the cellphone to see what he said? Or did no one look at the cell until 2007?

• 19:35Ashley Flowers?

  I'm not sure if she's playing dumb, or if she hadn't reviewed, like, the old notes yet, and like, wasn't up to speed.

• 19:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but he brings it up, like, why bring it up if you're lying?

• 19:45Ashley Flowers?

  Right, why point it out?

• 19:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it seems like he's going out of his way to check the cell. Also, he's saying that he called Anita on the fourth and talked to her before he reported Bonnie missing. He didn't call her until the next day, though.

• 19:57Ashley Flowers?

  Right, so thi- this is a small inconsistency. But this is 10 years later, and he's a day off, like, maybe it's a slip. But to me, it doesn't change the facts that much.

• 20:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it, like, the slip up does give him, like, the reason to know where the timeout lounge is now, which is what, back then, they said the big mess up was.

• 20:18Ashley Flowers?

  Sure, but I mean, they, they can just go back and listen to his recorded interview from 97, and then be right back where we started. So like, to me, it's not like he's like fooling at any, I don't know.

• 20:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:27Ashley Flowers?

  We could go round and round and round, so let's just go back to the tape.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  Okay, and the car?

• 20:33Speaker 03

  Uh, never found as far as I can, as far as I know. That's what, um, Sergeant Kelly, Mike Kelly?

• 20:41Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 20:41Speaker 03

  That's what he said was his biggest surprise. Uh, bodies are much more easy to hide than than a big car, so... And that was his biggest surprise after the last time we talked, which I don't even remember when that was. Was the efforts that he had gone through to try and find the car, but, uh...

• 21:00Speaker 02

  And did you ever talk to Sergeant Ryan?

• 21:03Speaker 03

  Sergeant Ryan?

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Uh, that's actually who I took the case from.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  You know, I believe I got a phone call at some point in time that he, I think it was a he.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  Uh, had taken-

• 21:12Speaker 02

  There's been several.

• 21:13Speaker 03

  Had taken the case, and, uh, when I moved up here, I called him, got his answering service and said that I was, you know, for for job reasons, was moving up here.

• 21:24Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 21:24Speaker 03

  And left him the, at that point in time, my new office number, because I I didn't have the home number yet.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  When did you move up here?

• 21:34Speaker 03

  August of two thousand, but he never called. It's been at least that long since I've heard from anybody.

• 21:40Speaker 02

  Right, that was probably kind of shocking when you get my phone call.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  Yes, 'cause I think I, as I think I told you on the phone conversation, you know, I had a meeting with five or six different people-

• 21:53Speaker 02

  Right.

• 21:53Speaker 03

  From the Sheriff's Department, um, Deputy Chief, I, I'm sorry, the names escaped me.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  That's okay.

• 22:00Speaker 03

  Um, 'cause, you know, I wasn't real happy with the way I was being treated. I mean, I understood, or I still understand, I guess, that I'm a, I'm a suspect, but I'll often thought, you know, I'm a victim too, and nobody was telling me anything.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Right.

• 22:17Speaker 03

  And, uh, not that I, I mean, I watch too much TV, I know. Not that I expect to get all the inside information, but it would, it would be nice to at least have been told some of what was found out or whatever. But, uh, at that point in time, they told me that they had pretty much done everything that they could do. And, uh, and again, I got assurance from, you know, two or three levels up from the people that I had been talking with, that everything was being done, that could be done, and, um, that they were just going away for something to happen. Either they find the car, or, or they find Bonnie, or somebody comes forward and says, "I get something,"

• 23:01Speaker 03

  or "I know something." And, uh, if something like that ever happened, they would contact me.

• 23:09Speaker 01

  Quick pause. I gotta be really honest here. Ten years on, Rick is seeming pretty reasonable.

• 23:17Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 23:17Speaker 01

  Like, no one seems to be doing much outside of just thinking he's kind of sus. And they're basically like, "Well, we hope we find her, or her car, or someone confesses, and we'll just let you know if that happens."

• 23:31Ashley Flowers?

  It's very much like a, like, "Don't call us, we'll call you" vibes.

• 23:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. And have they done any actual searches for her? Or, I mean, the car?

• 23:40Ashley Flowers?

  I mean-

• 23:40Speaker 01

  In the past ten years? Like, I know the family did, but what about the actual detectives on the case?

• 23:44Ashley Flowers?

  So they did extensive searching. Like, they did multiple air searches. I know with like a helicopter, looking for signs of her car. I know they also did several water searches over the years. But they didn't have sonar back in 1997. So they had to use a police dive team. And when they did that, they didn't find anything. And they did a lot of legwork, too. But all the legwork was very much like around this, like, any idea that could help them prove, like, the Rick did it theory. So they went to all these storage units in the Indianapolis area, I think, looking for her car. They checked all of the bus records and cab records, thinking that if Rick got rid of her and her car, he would have had to get a ride back home. But they never found that he was on any bus

• 24:28Ashley Flowers?

  or took any cab. No storage units either. So, going back to the tape. In this interview, they ask Rick what he thought could have happened. What is your theory? Ten years. What is, what is, what has gone through your mind in ten years?

• 24:46Speaker 03

  You know, um, the TV guy, Scott, asked me that over the phone. And it's like, you know, I don't know. I guess, you know, it's, as I told him originally, I said, "I don't think she would just voluntarily leave, especially her children." Um, if she encountered something that she couldn't get herself out of, I mean, you'd think again, the car would have been found by now. Uh, if she had a accident, I mean, the car would have been found right away. So, I mean, I don't know. I don't know how you hide something like that for that long a period of time. Uh, unless, and I still don't think, I don't think she voluntarily ran away.

• 25:31Speaker 03

  And if she did, I don't think she would stay away this long.

• 25:35Ashley Flowers?

  Right. It'd be pretty hard for someone to conceal herself and a car for this amount of time.

• 25:40Speaker 03

  But the other thing is, is if somebody took her, how do they hide the car for this long, a period of time? I mean, I watch TV and stuff like that. That's based on real events, but you know, it gets stretched or whatever. I mean, you could park a car in your garage, but would you leave it sit there for 10 years and nobody else would see it? That doesn't seem to make any sense. So I don't know. I, I guess inside, I don't think that she would have voluntarily run away. So I think again, either she had too much to drink that night and encountered a situation that she couldn't get herself out of. But what that could be, I don't know.

• 26:24Ashley Flowers?

  So just like a quick behind the scenes real quick. So in the transcript, the part where he says you could leave it in your garage, but like, would you do that for 10 years and nobody would see it? That is actually highlighted and starred, like someone found it important. I don't know who, but it kind of seems like someone was like, ah, maybe he's like slipping up and telling us what he did, like.

• 26:43Speaker 01

  Which like, sure, too bad they didn't look in the garage right after she disappeared. They waited, like what, a decade for that to actually happen?

• 26:52Ashley Flowers?

  Three years. It was three years when they went back to check. But like, also there's no way it was in the garage. Gretchen was there. She lived there. Josh was there. He lived there. Yeah, her, her family, Bonnie's family came the next week. Like they're all driving around the cars that they had. And I don't know. Again, I don't know what it means. I only brought it up because I feel like it just gives you a little bit of context and a sense that I think that they might've come into this interview with a strong opinion. And this is really, you know, what Josh has been saying, that all the work that they're willing to do is to try to look at Rick, try to get Rick to slip up. And it doesn't seem like they're really looking for other investigative avenues, even 10 years later, when she and the car still haven't been found.

• 27:30Speaker 02

  Um, and there were some marital problems, right?

• 27:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, there was.

• 27:36Speaker 02

  Uh, and who doesn't? I mean, what? What marriage is without problems? What were the issues? Do you remember?

• 27:43Speaker 03

  You know, I, I spent a lot of time thinking about that over the years. And, um, you know, Bonnie, I think, and again, in thinking back, you know, she changed quite a bit after her mother died. Her mother died two years before this happened, I believe. And, uh, she died of some type of cancer, but I mean, it was two months after being diagnosed.

• 28:08Speaker 02

  Oh, it was quick.

• 28:09Speaker 03

  I think it hit her pretty hard. And then I started getting things, you know, we don't have anything in common. And I, I was comparing again over the years. That's what I, let's see, saw in her parents. Her mother was a genealogy person and her dad was, was a fisherman and stuff like that. They had nothing in common. And I said, well, we're not unlike anybody else. I mean, we, we each have our own interests, but what we have in common are, is the family.

• 28:47Speaker 03

  And, uh, it just seemed like she just started getting more and more unhappy with lots of things. Uh, she said a couple of times she wasn't happy because her family didn't come to visit her often enough. She, uh, she always had to go see them. And, uh, just, she had changed. And, uh, again, I don't know if it was her mother or, or she had just became unhappy with me or life in general, but, uh, she just things that didn't bother her before seemed to start bothering her.

• 29:25Ashley Flowers?

  Did she ever talk about suicide?

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Never.

• 29:28Ashley Flowers?

  Never?

• 29:29Speaker 03

  Again, she talked about thinking about wanting to get a divorce. I said, "Well, you know, you should, there should be some intermediate steps between going from 'I'm unhappy' to a divorce," which is what I was trying to talk her into before she disappeared. And she seemed to be listening to that after a while. Um, you know, we had a fairly long conversation that night before she left about if we did divorce, what would, what would happen. She wanted to keep the kids and the house, and I said, "Well, I don't know if I can do that."

• 30:03Ashley Flowers?

  Now, he goes on to say some of the same things he did in 1997. That financially, he didn't know if they could swing two places, but he was willing to try. Like, his gesture to see if she wouldn't completely throw in the towel. He reiterates that they weren't shouting that night. Nothing got out of control. They were out on the front porch, in the view of Gretchen inside, and close to other neighbors. They don't live out in the country. They, like, lived in a subdivision. So, at this point in the interview, that's when Detective Byron asks him about Bonnie's affair. Point blank. It's 10 years later. Was Bonnie having an affair?

• 30:40Speaker 03

  Not that I know of.

• 30:41Ashley Flowers?

  Not that you know of? I'm sure you've heard that over the years, or...

• 30:44Speaker 03

  Several people have asked, but not that I know of.

• 30:48Ashley Flowers?

  Um, and you didn't remarry?

• 30:51Speaker 03

  No.

• 30:51Ashley Flowers?

  Over the 10 years?

• 30:52Speaker 03

  No. Gone about on a few dates, but it just, it just doesn't feel right. Still that hope.

• 31:00Ashley Flowers?

  Really? Tell me about that.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  I'm hoping she'll come back. It's not very likely, but I hate to give up hope.

• 31:09Ashley Flowers?

  Has this been weighing on you for the last six weeks? I mean, not, not to mention 10 years, but has it?

• 31:15Speaker 03

  No.

• 31:16Ashley Flowers?

  Has my phone call brought it to surface again?

• 31:18Speaker 03

  No.

• 31:19Ashley Flowers?

  No?

• 31:20Speaker 03

  'Cause it...

• 31:22Speaker 03

  It's always there. It never goes away. You know, the kids are, you know, Gretchen's out on her own, more or less. Josh works or whatever. He's gone. I'm sitting here with the dog at night and, uh, you know, that's it. It never goes away. And, uh, yeah. We haven't sat down and had a face-to-face contact with anybody outside of the three of us for a long time. But, um, again, I, you know, I've been up here for six and a half years. Uh, I haven't had any desire to date anybody or whatever in that period of time. Went out a couple of times when I was in Indy, right?

• 32:08Speaker 03

  Not right away, but after a while, it just, it just wasn't right. And I still, still feel that way. It's like, you know, you just, you do what you have to to get by day by day. And, uh, I know I had nothing to do with her disappearance, so that's what gets me through day by day. I would love to know what happened. Sometimes I'm leery about wanting to find out how it happened, cause I don't know if I wanna know the details. But I would sure like to know what, what happened.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  When you say the details, what do you mean?

• 32:47Speaker 03

  Well, I mean, if somebody murdered her, I don't know what. I want to know all of the details.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 32:53Speaker 03

  Uh, you know, did you suffer? That type of stuff. Um, I don't even know that stuff. I'm not a, um, I'm not a tabloid type of person or whatever. I mean, I watch the major news events or whatever, but the gory details don't really interest me. Like the Virginia Tech stuff. I mean, obviously you want to know that stuff is going on, but the, the tapes or whatever that were released, which I, I never did see. I don't really need to know all that type of stuff, but, uh. Again, I think we all like to know what happened, but how or um, I'm not sure who.

• 33:36Speaker 03

  We'd like to know who if something like that did happen. That's the, the most difficult part of it all is not, not knowing what happened.

• 33:44Speaker 02

  The lack of closure.

• 33:46Speaker 03

  Although you know what, I've thought about that over the years too. I don't know that there in a situation like this that there ever is closure. I think there's a, again, you know what?

• 33:58Speaker 02

  Resolution?

• 33:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, and, and close. I'm kind of what most people mean when they say closure. It gives you, uh, you know what happened? And I guess going forward from there and dealing with that is easier than what we've been dealing with for 10 years. And that's, we don't know what. Uh, is there anything you found out that you can tell me or us?

• 34:25Speaker 02

  No, not yet. Um, like I said, I was just recently reassigned to the case. Um, so I'm starting over, looking at it with fresh eyes. So I'm in the process right now, sorting through everything and seeing what I can do. So unfortunately, no, I, I don't really think I have anything new to tell you. I, I wish I did. Um, I'm confident that this case can be resolved. I do believe that.

• 34:51Speaker 03

  What, what is that based on just?

• 34:55Ashley Flowers?

  Detective Byrd basically just says, based on the facts of the case. She thinks it's solvable and everyone deserves that, especially Bonnie's family, her kids. She wants them to know that their mom didn't leave them. And then she hard pivots back to the morning of July 4th, asking what his first thoughts were. But he just says more of the same that he said back in 97.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  It does feel like he's a little all over the map though. Like he said earlier in the interview that he doesn't believe that she just walked off, that she had to have encountered some kind of situation that she just couldn't get herself out of. But then he talks about her like maybe coming back someday, even if that's like some slim possibility.

• 35:37Ashley Flowers?

  Getting a bite sized version of what his mind has been doing for the last 10 years. Like, families of the missing say that ambiguous loss is the hardest. Without knowing what happened, everything is a possibility. And listen, I'm not out here trying to be like the defender of Rick. I'm just saying that like, I've gone back and forth more times than I can even count on cases we've covered over the last eight years. I've gone back and forth more times than I can count on this very case alone over the last few months. And I'm not the one living with it day in and day out. But like Rick, this is something he actually says. He tells Detective Byron, he is living it every single day. He and the kids still talk about her. He sees things all the time that remind him of Bonnie.

• 36:20Ashley Flowers?

  And he is much more emotional, he says, as he's gotten older. Just very sentimental. And it's at that point that Detective Byron brings the conversation back to a more focused question. She asks Rick if there is anything that he thinks she should know. And it's not new information that he brings up. He's like, you know, I'm pretty frustrated with Detective Mike Kelly. He was the OG detective. Because apparently he went on a local TV segment about Bonnie's case and talked about her leaving the bar the same time as that John guy we talked about. But he's like, that's how I had to find out about this John guy. Mike Kelly never told me.

• 37:00Speaker 02

  Oh, it was on a TV show?

• 37:02Speaker 03

  That's what bothered me, is why he felt he could disclose that on, what was it? National TV? On TV? But he never felt that he should tell me that beforehand. Because again, I kept calling and asking if he was coming up with anything or whatever. Obviously, I was curious and wanted to know, but he, for the longest time, he wouldn't call me back. And that's what kind of triggered my, I think I wrote a letter to the sheriff, saying, you know, I just don't think I'm being treated right. Again, from my naivety, and I just thought, I just thought people should at least be telling me what's going on. But as far as what I can tell you, it's, like I said, she left home that night at 8:30,

• 37:47Speaker 03

  and I haven't heard or seen a thing from her since then.

• 37:52Ashley Flowers?

  Now, at first, this was like, one of the only things I couldn't wrap my head around from his whole second interview, was this like, time when he's asked if he thought Bonnie was having an affair, and he says he doesn't think so, because it seems like such a big part of the narrative now.

• 38:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:06Ashley Flowers?

  But, maybe he really had no idea. I mean, remember, her friend Anita and John, I mean, they clearly knew, John's in the affair with her, but they're not talking to Rick. And if I go back to news reports from those very early days, even early years, an affair is not mentioned. So, it's possible he really was in the dark, even when police weren't. Guys, I'm doing a bit of a kitchen clean-out. I have been getting schooled lately on the effects of microplastics, so I am determined to eliminate as much plastic from my home as possible. And I am especially focused on the stuff that I cook with. So, I turned to Wayfair, where I have been getting so many pieces for my home. And I just got all-new wood and stainless steel cooking utensils that look beautiful, feel great, and I have

• 38:51Ashley Flowers?

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• 41:41Ashley Flowers?

  Now, a year after that interview with Rick, the case ends up getting transferred again to a new lead detective, Sergeant Daniel Kistner, who he's the one who we talked to for this episode. And he and another detective decide to go back up to Michigan in 2008. And in that time, they did a nearly seven-hour interview with Rick. Now, we don't have the transcript of that one, and Sergeant Kistner wouldn't give it to us, but he told us that Rick had vivid memories of his whole life, except for the weeks leading up to Bonnie's disappearance. He kept saying that he couldn't recall many of the details, and Sergeant Kistner said that the interview got pretty tense when he called him on it and suggested that he knew more.

• 42:25Ashley Flowers?

  And after that, IMPD ended up getting a search warrant for Rick's place up in Michigan, and they collected all the electronic devices in the house. And Sergeant Kistner says they were also looking for that number-one mom necklace, which now, all these years later, was nowhere to be found.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  So they take these devices. What were they looking for on them? Because I assume that, like, they weren't the same phones or computers they had in 97.

• 42:47Ashley Flowers?

  Literally anything. I mean, Sergeant Kistner said they were looking for anything that could have, like, had a connection to Bonnie's disappearance, like, maybe in messages, in documents, or browser search history. Sergeant Kistner says they did find out that Rick was keeping an eye on local Indianapolis news, but not for anything specific. And they didn't find anything else that could have been connected to Bonnie's disappearance. So nothing comes of that search. And Josh told us that IMPD returned their computers and phones a couple of years later, that they returned everything broken. And, and this is the real kicker to me, I get why the relationship is strained between them and police, because I guess when they were doing the search of the house, they found, like, a tiny amount of weed

• 43:32Ashley Flowers?

  when they were searching in Josh's room or somewhere on Josh-whatever. And he legit got charged for it. Sergeant Kistner said that he had no idea that happened. He said that would have been done by, like, Michigan police, and he never would have done that. He was just there to find out what happened to Bonnie. Like, he wouldn't have had any interest in busting a kid for weed.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Listen, I'm not saying the police are wrong about their theory, but I genuinely still don't know what I think.

• 43:58Speaker 01

  But I fully get why the kids would be frustrated with them. Like, this whole scenario that's unfolding feels really frustrated and pointed and not backed by much.

• 44:08Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and like, at least from the way that Rick tells it, like, or from what I've seen from his transcripts, right? Like, he's the one asking for updates and not getting much. Josh and his dad and relatives are the ones out there searching for the whole weekend before the sheriff's office put anyone on the case. They're learning stuff through the media, and now even the kids are treated like criminals. And Josh's wife, Crystal, told us that part of the reason Gretchen doesn't like talking to people is because they always accuse her of knowing more, that like she was in the house that night. And, you know, maybe it's not as big as her covering up for something, but that she has to have like some secret piece of information locked away in her brain about whether her dad left the house that night, or if she heard her mom come home and something happened. And listen, we heard this from multiple sources in our reporting.

• 44:51Ashley Flowers?

  We heard it from investigators, even their own Uncle Mike. But this is where I'm saying, just like, hold on for one second. I get so many things look bad. But for one second, if we kept an open mind, if we believed Gretchen, that she doesn't know anything more. Her mom left, she went to bed. When she woke up, her mom wasn't there, but her dad was, and everything was normal. What if there is nothing more to tell? What if we don't know what happened to Bonnie because her family truly doesn't know? And that is the only place anyone has really looked. So, remember Diane? Bonnie's like neighbor friend or like who lived close to her?

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 45:28Ashley Flowers?

  She was one of the people who instantly became suspicious of Rick. This is, can I tell you something spooky that happened?

• 45:33Speaker 01

  Always.

• 45:34Ashley Flowers?

  I was like, full body chills when I was going through the file and like all of the interviews. So, losing her friend and never knowing what happened, obviously is just something that never left her. And when our reporter was interviewing her, she said that, over the years, at like all different stages of life, she had gone to mediums, three different ones, all separate. And each one told her the same thing. They all said... It's not who you think that did it.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  What? What is that?

• 46:06Ashley Flowers?

  Maybe, maybe nothing.

• 46:07Speaker 01

  What does that mean?

• 46:08Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  If not, because, because she thinks, like she said, as soon as-

• 46:12Ashley Flowers?

  She's always thought that.

• 46:12Speaker 01

  She's always thought it's Rick.

• 46:13Ashley Flowers?

  And listen, even, she's asking the same question I, like, you started to ask, because she was like-

• 46:18Speaker 01

  If not him, then who?

• 46:18Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. She's like, if not him, then who? If it's some random person, you don't need to make her car and her purse and her credit cards and all that disappear.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:26Ashley Flowers?

  They don't think it had to be someone she knew, which is why she just like kept coming back to Rick, but then kept going to mediums who kept saying she was wrong, like-

• 46:34Speaker 01

  But, I mean, okay, but what if it is someone she knew, just someone else?

• 46:39Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, what if?

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Or an accident?

• 46:42Ashley Flowers?

  Or what if she walked off? Like, I know it's almost unheard of, but recently I came across the case of Brenda Heist. I was not familiar with this before, but her daughter reached out to me, and she is who I've had in the back of my head as I've been telling this story, because I know the easy answer is the husband. But it wasn't that way in her case. Brenda, very much the same scenario, she was divorcing her husband, and on the day she disappeared, she was supposed to go look at apartments after dropping her kids off at school, and then she just vanished. And just like Rick, her daughter told us that her dad lived under suspicion for years. Everyone said Brenda would never leave her kids. She has to be dead. And then guess what? 11 years later, Brenda was found alive and well.

• 47:26Ashley Flowers?

  She just left. Didn't plan it, just like that morning, said, you know what? I'm gonna start over. And, sure, yes, accident is still an option too, but accident feels less likely the more bodies of water that are searched over the years. Which bodies of water is like what people have always said, like it had to have been a body of water that she went into, and that's why the car has never been found. But the currently detective on the case, Nicholas Hubs, says that there have been more than 20 water searches for Bonnie's car in the past 10 years. Lots with sonar now that they have it, including some done by a private group. And while cars have been found, none of them are Bonnie's blue 1990 Mercury Sable with plate number 99G9645.

• 48:10Ashley Flowers?

  But I have to wonder, are we like making a wrong assumption there?

• 48:15Speaker 01

  About what?

• 48:16Ashley Flowers?

  About the car being in water because like on its face, you read about this case and it's like, oh, like her car, you know, it was entered into like whatever, whatever database, the license plate or the VIN number, it's never popped up. So like it has to be in water because that's why nobody's ever found it.

• 48:33Ashley Flowers?

  Maybe not. So I was shocked when I talked to Josh and we learned that investigators actually messed up in 1997. Now he's telling us this and we're like, there's no-

• 48:44Speaker 01

  Let's double check, yeah.

• 48:46Ashley Flowers?

  Turns out he's right. You see, the way it used to work in 1997 was that an officer would make the report, make a phone call to the auto desk to have a vehicle entered into NCIC and it would either get entered as stolen or they would give information to have someone entered as missing. So it looks like in Bonnie's case, when a deputy called it in here, they only entered Bonnie as missing. Now they noted that her car was gone to, but I don't think they actually entered the vehicle into the system at the same time. It wasn't until some point in 1999 when another detective comes across this case and is doing all of his like checks and balances, that he discovers the vehicle is not in the system as missing or stolen. Now, when this was realized,

• 49:29Ashley Flowers?

  they were able to go back and see if any agency had run the plate in the missing two years, but no one had. But to me, it also means that maybe no one was actively looking out for it, which the detective admitted to us was a missed opportunity.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  So if the plate is never run, then the car is hidden somehow, right?

• 49:50Ashley Flowers?

  Which is why I think people keep coming back to water. But like, I don't, I don't, I just like, but we know it's not in the water. So like if it's an accident, I just have a hard time believing the accident thing. Like when you think about the route from the bar to her home, it's not a super rural area. An accident on land would have been noticed for like all, like almost all the route she went home. And the bodies of water on her way home have been searched. So like someone hid the thing.

• 50:18Speaker 01

  Okay, so let's just play this out.

• 50:20Ashley Flowers?

  So like, that's not an accident to me. You know what I mean?

• 50:22Speaker 01

  Let's just play this out for a second. How would Rick get rid of his wife's body and car in like kind of a short amount of time? We're talking about like, what, four, five hours, maybe?

• 50:34Ashley Flowers?

  This is what I'm saying. Show me how it happened. Like, the easy answer is a body of water. That's why everyone keeps talking about water. But which one? I don't know if anyone's been to Indy recently. Like, we don't just have like massive remote bodies of water.

• 50:47Speaker 01

  Not really known for mass bodies of water.

• 50:49Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, we have like plenty of little ones all over, but most of them aren't open access. There are like houses around them where people would see. You might even see tire tracks that would stand out.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 50:58Ashley Flowers?

  Or there's like guardrails if the water is close to the road. And like I said, the ones that have places that you could easily drive something into, between Broad Ripple, that area, and her house, those have been searched. Like, I-

• 51:10Speaker 01

  Okay, but again, the focus is on the area between the bar and her house. The person we have saying she was headed to her house was the guy she was having an affair with, right?

• 51:22Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  That's, that's how we know she's going "no" in like air quotes.

• 51:27Ashley Flowers?

  Everything, everything is based on that. And investigators, they've always said they deem him credible and not involved in her disappearance. But I mean, since I don't have their records, I don't know all the ins and outs of why, other than the fact that they say he passed a polygraph. And unfortunately, he died in 2006, so we couldn't talk to him now. But we did get in touch with John's daughter, Kim. And what she told us was brand new information to us and to investigators when we passed it along to them. So she was 16 back in 1997. She didn't live in Indy. She actually lived in Texas with her mother.

• 52:06Ashley Flowers?

  But by some stroke of cold case luck, she was visiting Indianapolis to see her dad that 4th of July weekend. She told us that her dad was actually planning to introduce her to Bonnie at an outdoor concert on the 4th called Uncle Sam Jam. I guess the concert had one of her favorite bands, The Bear Naked Ladies. We actually checked this. The concert did happen that weekend, so she is spot on. And she said that her dad hadn't introduced her to other women, and so she took this as him.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  This was big.

• 52:34Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, this was like, he's like very smitten with her. She knew. But she says that Friday Bonnie never showed up. And she remembered her dad getting really worried and him saying that this wasn't like her. She said it pretty much ruined the entire day because he seemed so worried about it.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Wait, I thought John gets told that she's missing on Saturday by Anita.

• 52:56Ashley Flowers?

  That is what John told police, yeah.

• 52:57Speaker 01

  But his daughter's saying that he knew something was wrong on Friday.

• 53:00Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. Now, it's not like he could call her house or show up to get her, right? Like they're having a secret affair.

• 53:07Speaker 01

  But she had a cell. Like, he could have called her.

• 53:11Ashley Flowers?

  So, and this is the thing. Kim told us that she thinks he did try her cell, but he couldn't reach her, which brings me back to those cell phone records. Yes, it feels even more likely to me that no activity means that like calls didn't connect, not that no one tried calling.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  But why didn't he try calling Anita or anything, though? Like, there were other people that he spent time with that knew Bonnie, that he could have...

• 53:35Ashley Flowers?

  Like, seen where, like, what happened?

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, have you heard from her? Whatever.

• 53:38Ashley Flowers?

  I've thought about this. The innocent explanation, which I do think is very believable, is that he didn't think that she was, like, missing, missing. I mean, he knew things at home were tough. She was about to leave her husband. He might have just assumed that things got complicated at home. But the thing that I can't wrap my head around is, in that scenario, though, why not tell police that you were supposed to meet her on Friday and she didn't show up?

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that feels like kind of a big piece of, like, the timeline puzzle, right?

• 54:08Ashley Flowers?

  When we told Sergeant Kistner about this, he said he had never heard anything about Bonnie not showing up to meet John at the concert on Friday, and he doesn't know why John wouldn't have mentioned that. And like, this was one of the moments where he's like, you know, it's really frustrating to have come on to this case so many years after, when it's already too late to get questions answered from John, who, again, died in 2006. Now, he said he did go door knocking at one point. And talked to one of John's good friends. And this was recent, like just about a year ago. The guy's name is Brad Beach. And Brad told him that John took Bonnie's disappearance really hard. Kissner said that Brad told him that John carried guilt, that he should have followed her home, or like he should have done something to protect her. Like, we tried talking to Brad ourselves, but we never got a response.

• 54:53Ashley Flowers?

  We also reached out to Kim's two half-brothers, who are John's sons from a previous relationship, but neither of them responded to our messages. So we really only had Kim to talk to about who her dad was. And, I mean, she said that he was, quote, "a drinker", even before Bonnie went missing. So she doesn't know, like, how much Bonnie's disappearance impacted him in the following months and years. Because really, after that, they didn't talk often.

• 55:16Speaker 01

  Was she staying with him, though, that night? Like, can she at least confirm that he came home and was there after he, like, said he waved goodbye to Bonnie?

• 55:25Ashley Flowers?

  No, she actually stayed with a different family member while she was in town. Which, like, listen, I'm not saying that John's story isn't true or that he had anything to do with Bonnie going missing. What I'm saying is, like, the double standard is wild. Like, you have John with no one to verify his story, and you have Rick, who has his daughter at home saying nothing happened, and Rick's the liar. John might have called Bonnie on Friday. We know Rick says that he did, but there's no activity on her phone. But Rick is the liar. Like, it doesn't seem fair.

• 55:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 55:56Ashley Flowers?

  Now, we also tried talking to Anita, because, like, I have a million questions for that woman. But she ignored us. Know who else she ignored? Bonnie's kids. Josh said that he has tried a bunch of different times to talk to Anita over the years, like, even reached out to her daughter and said that she pretty much just hung up on him. And I was talking about this with one of our reporters, and they were like, "Well, you know, she made it clear to detectives that she was suspicious of Rick. She's always thought that the kids were very much on his side, so like, maybe she wouldn't want to talk to them." Okay, I get it, maybe. But then I found out that Diane tried to reach out to her, too. I mean, everyone right now is looking for answers and clues. And the same way people are like, oh, Gretchen must know something.

• 56:40Ashley Flowers?

  I think everyone wants to talk to Anita, thinking there's

• 56:43Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 56:44Ashley Flowers?

  some hidden clue, like locked away in her brain. They can dissect every word Bonnie said that night or her exact movements, like whatever. So Diane got Anita's name from one of the detectives. She called her and she's like, hey, I know everything about Bonnie and Rick and what was going on.

• 56:59Speaker 01

  And Diane's like, at this point, still pretty hardcore. Rick did it.

• 57:03Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, but she's like, I would love to know more about what happened before Bonnie came to the party that night. And this is what Anita told her. I would never betray her trust. And Diane's like, no, like, you don't understand. Like, I want to know so we can figure out.

• 57:18Speaker 01

  You trusted me too. We're on the same team.

• 57:20Ashley Flowers?

  I want to know if Rick's involved and maybe this will help. And her response was, I would never tell anything about Bonnie to anyone.

• 57:29Speaker 01

  What?

• 57:30Ashley Flowers?

  Listen, girl, if I am missing, and there is even a chance that I did not walk away and someone killed me, spill my secrets. Like, what are we doing here?

• 57:39Speaker 01

  You know I love to yap. You don't have to worry. But like, is Bonnie gonna know you shared something?

• 57:44Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 57:45Speaker 01

  And sharing it, again, like with another friend of hers that she was

• 57:49Ashley Flowers?

  She was confiding in too.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  clearly confiding in, like, again, like I said, like, she trusted me too. We're on the same team.

• 57:55Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  Feels like the safest person and like also someone who can identify with what you're feeling. Like as someone who like has a friend missing and like they confided in you, they trusted you.

• 58:07Ashley Flowers?

  It's really odd.

• 58:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:08Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know if Anita still feels this way almost 30 years later. But again, like, I mean, to us, she definitely didn't seem to want to talk about Bonnie even now. And if you want to say she's scared or whatever, Rick died in 2022. So if she was keeping quiet because she was afraid of him, that shouldn't be a problem anymore. And I don't know if it was ever a real problem to begin with, because I did a thing.

• 58:33Speaker 01

  I know the thing you did, but I don't actually know what came of it yet. So I'm, I'm actually like dying to hear.

• 58:39Ashley Flowers?

  So, okay, so as some of our listeners may know, I have become friends with Allison Dubois over the last like year or so. And some people will recognize her name because of the show Medium. That's based off her life and the actual work that she did to help law enforcement solve cases. That's what I knew her from. Some people will know her from Real Housewives, where she was the guest at an epic dinner party and predicted the downfall of a marriage. We all love her for different reasons. Anyway, something in this case just really stood out to me. So that moment where I like, I read the transcript of what Diane told our reporter, where she, or I listened to it as well, but she's telling a reporter that over the years, she went to three different mediums and all three said the same thing. It's not who you think. So I got this idea.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Like, I know a medium.

• 59:25Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, what if I asked the medium, I know. I know, listen, guys, I know it doesn't prove anything, but like, I don't know. What if? It's 30 years on, like, what do we have to lose? Police are only looking at Rick. I'll try anything at this point. So I first asked Josh if it would be okay. He gave us his permission. So I flew Allison out to Indy and I had her do a reading. And let me preface this by telling you how she works. When she came to Indy, she had no idea what case we were going to talk about. There is no way she would have known. Even if she would have known, like, there's like very little, this is the most in-depth story that's ever been done on Bonnie's case. So when she does a reading, what I give her is someone's picture and their first name.

• 1:00:11Ashley Flowers?

  Not like a picture of them and their family or like, I mean, just-

• 1:00:13Speaker 01

  Just them.

• 1:00:14Ashley Flowers?

  Just them and their first name. So she takes it, she goes into a room and like, we had cameras and stuff, like she does like this weird scribble thing or whatever. And she's able to make a connection, which I asked her before, I'm like, hey, if someone's missing-

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Like, what, what do you get if someone's-

• 1:00:30Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and she's like, I cannot connect if they are not dead. So the fact that she was able to make a connection told me that Bonnie is not out there alive and well somewhere. Now she, when she started talking about Bonnie, she said that she was very nurturing. She would have never walked away. And whatever happened to her wasn't an accident either. Someone targeted her.

• 1:00:51Ashley Flowers?

  And it was someone she did not know.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:00:55Ashley Flowers?

  Girl, I'm telling you, I did not tell her anything about Bonnie's family, or husband, or kids, or affair. She knew nothing about her life. But she said that someone had been watching her.

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  And isn't that something that John had mentioned?

• 1:01:06Ashley Flowers?

  Mm-hmm. Everyone has always just assumed that someone is Rick.

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:10Ashley Flowers?

  But when she's telling me this, and again, I'm not even like, at this point, confirming for her anything.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  You're just listening.

• 1:01:15Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, but she's saying that this person who was watching her targeted her. And she said this was someone who has a record for burglary. She said he lived nearby, Bonnie, but not in a house, which was like, very specific. And she thinks her remains are more likely in a wooded area, somewhere with walking paths. And she kept saying that she kept seeing this scene where there were birds flying over this wooded area near a housing development that she said was, it was built up, but it still had some homes under construction. Which sent me into like, a property record spiral, because I was like, okay, where would have been wooded in 97 with houses being built, but still undeveloped

• 1:01:56Ashley Flowers?

  almost 30 years later? Long story short, my best guess is the Eagle Creek area. It's like a big city park.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  There's tons of walking paths.

• 1:02:05Ashley Flowers?

  And that's like, on the west side, like, out where she would have lived. And I did this kind of like, vague call out on social media a few weeks ago, about like, asking people to send me housing developments that would have been under construction around like, late 1997, early 1998. And to be honest with you, I don't even like, know my next steps, or what searching these areas would entail. I know at a minimum, I think I'll be doing a lot of hiking when the weather warms up.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  So, if it really is someone that Bonnie didn't know, that not Rick, not John, how does this person encounter her? Because John waves goodbye to her while she's in her car headed home.

• 1:02:42Ashley Flowers?

  So... I have this like kind of theory and I kind of talked it out eventually with Allison after she did her whole reading. Because one of the things she said in her reading before she knew anything was that she was like seeing someone walking in between the homes. Like she's like Bonnie keeps showing me someone walking in between the homes. And I wonder if she did make it home, but not inside. I think about them sitting on the porch, having this talk about their marriage, right? They're trying to like not probably not be around Gretchen and have her hear everything.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Not in the house.

• 1:03:15Ashley Flowers?

  Right, but if they're sitting outside, she's telling Rick outside what her plan is. She's gonna like go away. She's not gonna be home till late. So say there was somebody who had seen her, targeted, watched her. I mean, if they were there earlier, they know that she is going to be alone pulling into the drive very late at night, early morning hours. If they were following her somewhere else, they see her pull in. There is a world where she gets attacked in her driveway. And yes, there are houses very close, but if it is swift, if it is quick.

• 1:03:46Speaker 01

  And it happens in her car and he leaves with it?

• 1:03:48Ashley Flowers?

  He leaves with it? What like?

• 1:03:50Speaker 01

  How would you, how would anyone know?

• 1:03:52Ashley Flowers?

  It's not like she has to stop. It's like she made it almost all the way to the like, again, this is just, I have nothing to base this on.

• 1:03:58Speaker 01

  Her car stops in the driveway of her own volition. He's not flagging her down. She doesn't have to pull over. It's where she's supposed to be stopping.

• 1:04:04Ashley Flowers?

  Right. And so as the conversations kept going with Allison, there's like, there's so much more that she told me, but I'm trying to keep it brief. But I did eventually give her Rick's picture because he died too. And like she was like, this man, no. She's like, he is not violent. She's like, he is a perfectionist. He probably could be verbally like mean to Bonnie, but he has never killed anyone in his whole life. And listen, I know people are gonna think whatever they wanna think of this. I, I believe in stuff like this. Some people will not, and that's okay. The thing that I like think about though, is Allison aside, if that's true, if Rick did nothing, it would be really sad to think that he had to live the rest of his life.

• 1:04:46Ashley Flowers?

  Painted as a murderer by so many people. He never got remarried. He like, he said he thought about Bonnie all the time. I don't know. And listen, you guys, I'm serious. There's, there is so much more that Allison said about Bonnie. But again, like, I realize they're skeptics. I'm trying to like, keep it brief. So if you want to hear the whole thing, even the stuff that like, I gave her a moment to say, like, does she have anything to say to her son? I mean, it was fascinating. I'm gonna drop the entire conversation as a fan club extra for anyone who's interested. I'm, I, again, I'm just trying to give you the big takeaways here. But I will leave you with something else that gives me like little tiny chills. Like, I'm always thinking about like the critics, they're like, oh, Ashley, eye roll.

• 1:05:29Ashley Flowers?

  And like, I know it's a little bit generic, but it was like the last little like moment I had when putting together this episode. So I asked our reporter, like, as I'm finishing up, like, hey, go to Josh, see if he has just any final thoughts that he wants to share when we close out our episode. At the same time, I was about to go like, do my stuff with Allison Dubois. You know, it's different places, different times, whatever. So I go do my thing with Allison. And when I asked her to like, say, does she have anything to say to her son? And the first line out of Allison's mouth was, she said, he never stopped looking for me. And then she called him baby boy. She said a bunch more stuff, whatever. And so I come back to finish, you know, the outline for this episode. And the first line I get in my note from the reporter was, Josh has never given up searching for his mom.

• 1:06:12Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 1:06:12Ashley Flowers?

  Chill, like, and it's, it is a true statement. Although he and his wife Crystal moved to Florida in 2023, they worked with dive teams before they left. They were looking for any sign of Bonnie. They scoured maps for any bodies of water that could be hidden or that could hide a car. Now, one place he says he hasn't been able to search are quarries north of Indianapolis. But he's not even sure if there would be access to put a car in the water there. He says not knowing what happened to his mom has been brutal. It has made it harder for him to trust people. And it's only compounded by the unanswered questions of whether his father, his own father, was involved in her disappearance. Now, Josh doesn't believe that he was.

• 1:06:55Ashley Flowers?

  He doesn't think that his father was capable of that kind of violence. And he thinks that if he had done something, like the guilt would have eaten away at him. He thinks someone else out there might hold the answers. And he hopes that one day they'll come forward to give him and his family the relief of finally laying Bonnie to rest. And I don't know, I really do believe that there's hope for that. So if anyone out there has information about Bonnie's disappearance or her missing vehicle, please contact the currently detective, that's Detective Nicholas Hubs, at Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department. The phone number is 317-327-6160. Or you can email us, [email protected].

• 1:07:51Ashley Flowers?

  You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkie.com.

• 1:07:56Speaker 01

  And you can follow us on Instagram at @crimejunkiepodcast.

• 1:07:59Ashley Flowers?

  We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

• 1:08:38Ashley Flowers?

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. I think Chuck would approve.

• 1:08:47Speaker 04

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir. And that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather around, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.