MISSING: John & Shelly Markley

In 1995, a married couple vanishes from their Ohio home without a trace, leaving behind their five kids, an unlocked gun cabinet, and a house full of clues. As ransom calls roll in and suspicions mount, their family is left wondering: Was this a planned disappearance? Or something more sinister?

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Ashley Flowers?

  When you're out in nature, you learn to trust your instincts. You pay attention to the trail, your surroundings, and you stay alert to protect yourself from harm. But what if the biggest threat isn't the environment at all? On Park Predators, host Delia Diambra explores true crime cases that happen in national parks and remote wildernesses, the places we usually think of as safe and peaceful. Each episode reveals what happened and how much more there is beneath the surface. Listen to Park Predators now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today is so twisty, so unbelievable that you would swear it was straight out of a movie. And somehow, it's all real,

• 0:44Ashley Flowers?

  even though this case has barely been reported on outside of Ohio. But when our reporters started digging in, sources started coming forward with secrets that they have kept for decades, tips that they have never told police, and information that totally reshaped this story. And that's the story of John and Shelley Markley.

• 1:41Ashley Flowers?

  December 15, 1995, is a cold Friday in Bristolville, Ohio, around the time schools are letting out for winter break. But when 15-year-old Ruth Markley steps off the bus just after 3:00 p.m., she isn't having a happy start to her holidays. You see, one of her dad's sisters just passed a couple of days ago, and the service is tonight. So being the eldest of five, Ruth's probably planning to do everything she can to make this day a little easier on her parents, John and Shelley Markley. Except, when she gets home, her parents aren't there, which never happens. I mean, even if they're 15 minutes late, they call one of John's sisters, who lives nearby, to come over and wait for the school bus. But when she goes inside, it is a little weird because it's almost like they were right there just moments ago.

• 2:27Ashley Flowers?

  In the kitchen, she sees a coffee pot still on its burner boiled dry and two used coffee mugs on the kitchen table. And as she looks around, other things feel a little off as well. Like now she's realizing that the door was unlocked when she came home. She realizes that her dad's truck was gone. Her mom's purse is still there on top of the fridge and normally she wouldn't leave home without it. Or her cigarettes and lighter, which are laying on the counter. And honestly, more than even the purse, like that is a huge red flag for Ruth. Her mom smokes a pack a day. She is never without her cigarettes. So Ruth goes to check her parents' bedroom. And when she gets there, she finds that their clothes for the funeral service have been laid out on the bed.

• 3:08Ashley Flowers?

  And then she spots it, the thing that actually sends chills running down her spine. Her dad's gun cabinet is unlocked and open. And in all her years, she has never seen him open it. So Ruth calls her aunt, one of John's sisters, asking if she has seen her parents. Her aunt says no, but she tells her, listen, don't freak out just yet because yesterday your dad mentioned that he wanted to buy a new suit for the funeral. So, you know, him and your mom probably just went to the mall together. So she tells Ruth, close the door to the gun cabinet and the bedroom so the other kids can't get up there and call me back if your parents aren't home soon. Ruth hangs up and then she waits, trying to keep herself distracted with cleaning

• 3:51Ashley Flowers?

  or cooking for her siblings as they start coming home one by one. But their parents don't come home and hours pass with no sign of John or Shelley. So around 5:30 PM, when everyone has to leave for the funeral home, Ruth's aunt drives over to pick up the kids. They go to the service, it starts, it ends, and John and Shelley never show. And while we know there is cause for concern, now that you're hearing about it on a Crime Junkie episode, the family actually reasons away their absence. John particularly had been devastated by his sister's death. I mean, they were twins and he said he felt like he lost half of himself when she died.

• 4:32Ashley Flowers?

  So they think maybe a final goodbye was just too much for him and he and Shelley went somewhere to clear their heads. So in the meantime, the whole family decides to go to John's house to stay with the kids until their parents come home. But again, they don't come home. When midnight passes, no one can make excuses anymore. John and Shelley were dedicated parents and they would never leave their kids for this long. So around 12:30 a.m., Ruth's aunt reports them missing. About 10 minutes later, police show up to the house to take statements from the family. They want to know as much as they can about the couple and like the time leading up to their absence. They learn that John is a long haul trucker who owns a company, has a couple of

• 5:17Ashley Flowers?

  employees, and Shelley is a stay at home mom. They've been married for 16 years. They have a solid relationship. I mean, at first, like Shelley's parents didn't approve of her marrying John so young, but the families get along like these days. So Shelley's dad even works for John now.

• 5:33Speaker 01

  So kind of like how you didn't approve when Justin and I got married at 20, but now you two are besties?

• 5:38Ashley Flowers?

  Listen, it took me a minute. I was probably more critical than your parents, but yes, yes. But it all worked out in the end for me and Justin and you.

• 5:48Speaker 01

  And this family. Got it.

• 5:50Ashley Flowers?

  And listen, like John and Shelley, they're normal. They have their arguments like any other couple, but there is nothing salacious to discuss, like within their home, their marriage, whatever. Neither one of them has a criminal record. The house is paid off, though the original structure, worth noting, burnt down in 1993. But it doesn't seem like that was ever investigated as like a crime or anything. And look, the family admits that John's made maybe a few enemies over the years, especially running his own business. His brother told us John didn't start fights, but he would finish them, like he knew how to stand up for himself, especially when it came to his business or his money. So he had had some disputes with his employees and even some recently. But even in that,

• 6:33Ashley Flowers?

  there was nothing that they can think of that was worth hurting him and Shelley over.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  We've talked about this before. I used to work in the transportation industry and I have to like remember all these trainings that I used to go to about like trucking can be a really convenient cover for like a lot of shady activities, especially things like drug trafficking. And we had to like learn how to spot it, what to do about it, stuff like that. Like my mind instantly goes there when I hear about his company.

• 6:58Ashley Flowers?

  And he's missing, right. Listen, the team looked into the route that he drove. So it was Ohio to Florida and back. And that's apparently a common route for trafficking by truck. And John's sister even brought up like the drug theory to us. The family didn't consider it at the time, but in the years since, I mean, they've at least talked about it. Like, could John and Shelley have been involved in something shady like that that maybe led to their disappearance? But ultimately, no, they don't believe John or Shelley were ever involved with drugs as users, as traffickers, and there is no mention in any court records or reporting that we looked at of any kind of drug connection.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 7:36Ashley Flowers?

  Now, that said, I don't know if police ever like really vetted this and checked this out. Like, our FOIA request to the Trumbull County Sheriff's Office was denied, so we couldn't get access to their case files, and then we never got a response to multiple requests for an interview that we put in. So if they ever fully vetted that or not, I don't know, but it doesn't seem like anyone's ever made a connection to that.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 7:58Ashley Flowers?

  Now, leading up to that afternoon, Ruth tells police that she and the other kids woke up that morning and immediately begged Shelley to let them stay home from school before the service, but Shelley wasn't having it. And she even made a point to tell one of the younger kids who had a habit of like going to the nurse midday and saying she was sick so her mom would pick her up, like, "Today is not the day." Like, Shelley was super clear. She didn't want to get any calls from anyone or see anyone back home before school was out.

• 8:25Speaker 01

  So, I'm a mom, have a mom. This feels very much like a "don't make me pull this car over" statement. Like, I'm already a busy person, this is already a busy day, don't go rogue.

• 8:35Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  Just help me out here.

• 8:37Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 8:38Speaker 01

  But I also have to, like, now that we're talking about this, like, did she know something else? Like, was it more than, like, "Just please don't bother me"? Was it like, "You cannot be at the house tonight. Like, something is going on. You need to stay in school"?

• 8:50Ashley Flowers?

  Well, Ruth said that it seemed normal, like, not like something was up.

• 8:56Speaker 01

  Like, just normal, like, "Don't go rogue"?

• 8:58Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, like, we've just got a lot going on today. So, after getting their marching orders, one of the kids went to John and Shelley's bedroom to kiss John goodbye, then Shelley puts all five kids on their buses, and then they went off. And they had a normal, uneventful school day, all the way up until Ruth came home. And no one else in the family has anything more to offer. Everyone else says that they didn't see or hear from the couple that day. So, police have to move on to searching the house, starting with John and Shelley's bedroom. There, they see what Ruth saw: clothes on the bed. But they also noticed that the suit on the bed is new.

• 9:38Speaker 01

  So, they made it to the mall? Like, that was the plan? They had already gone and come back by the time they went missing?

• 9:44Ashley Flowers?

  Right, but they don't know if that was that day, or it could have even been the day before. I mean, it's not like the aunt knew that they were gonna pick the suit up that morning. You know what I mean? She was just like grasping for straws.

• 9:55Speaker 01

  Oh, he wanted this, that maybe that's where they went.

• 9:57Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, maybe that's why they're MIA. And I kinda think it happened before that morning, but I'll get to that in a second, just based on timeline stuff. Police note the gun cabinet in the room too. And then they see a small safe that John and Shelley usually kept in the closet is now lying open on the bathroom counter. John and Shelley's important papers, like their marriage license, kids' birth certificates, they're kinda scattered across the sink. And police aren't sure what all of that means, but they ask Ruth if anything is missing from the gun cabinet. Now Ruth and other family members aren't sure. John never unlocks it, especially around the kids. But Ruth does think that her dad had three guns and that two of them might be missing.

• 10:42Speaker 01

  And can't police figure out what's missing through, like, registration records?

• 10:46Ashley Flowers?

  No, Ohio doesn't have statewide gun registration laws in 95. In fact, they still don't now. We were sent loan documents that showed that John owned at least three shotguns. So we know that. But I don't know if those were all he had, or if any of those were the ones that were potentially missing from the cabinet.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  Right, but there's also this safe and all these papers spread out from it. Do we know if any of the, like, the documents or anything is missing from there? Or even money?

• 11:13Ashley Flowers?

  Well, John's sister mentioned he kept something like $2,400 in there, but there is no cash when police find the safe, so maybe that was taken. But that's pretty much like all they see in the room. So then Ruth takes police into the kitchen and shows them the person's cigarettes that her mom left behind. And then she mentions the two coffee mugs that she found, but those are gone now because the kids were trying to be helpful before the funeral. So they were like tidying up so their parents could like come home to a clean house, just get going. So, you know, great kids, but downside is any evidence like fingerprints or whatever that they could have gotten from those mugs are now probably long gone.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Well, and at this point, the whole family's been in the house for like hours. I mean, this, if this was a crime scene, investigation's already been like compromised.

• 12:00Ashley Flowers?

  Completely contaminated, right? Like when I think about the mugs, there's honestly a good chance both of those cups were used just by John and Shelley. I think the key stuff in the house isn't what was there, but the stuff that was missing. Like tarps that normally cover John's apple red Corvette in the garage. John always was meticulous about his cars, especially this one. Like it is his pride and joy. It is his baby. He would never leave it exposed like that, at least not voluntarily. And also still missing is John's truck. But once police put an APB out on it, they get a hit almost immediately.

• 12:41Ashley Flowers?

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• 13:25Ashley Flowers?

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• 14:44Ashley Flowers?

  Around 5:00 a.m., an officer working the night shift stops for coffee at a restaurant about 20 minutes away from the Markley House, and he finds John and Shelley's 1990 red Chevy Silverado sitting in this parking lot. Now, it might not have stood out if not for that APB, because it's not, like, broken into or anything. The doors are locked, nothing about it is strange. But he notifies other authorities, and when police arrive, they see tarps like the ones used to cover John's Corvette laying in the truck's bed. And when they get inside, without the keys, by the way, because the keys aren't there, they search the cab and they find a cellphone.

• 15:26Ashley Flowers?

  A family advocate who spoke to us on behalf of one of the Markleys' children told us that the phone actually was Shelley's phone. And this hasn't been reported on, as far as I know, but the advocate said that police also found used cigarette butts and potentially other physical evidence, though he couldn't speak to exactly what. But it was all found, something was found in the truck.

• 15:47Speaker 01

  And are the cigarettes the brand that Shelley smoked?

• 15:50Ashley Flowers?

  That is a great question. I would love to know, but I actually don't. And interestingly, so we did try and like, check this, right? I mean, we couldn't get files or like interviews with people actively working this. But we did get in touch with a former sheriff, a guy named Tom Altier. And we actually got a completely different story from him. He told us that there was no physical evidence found, not even fingerprints. So who is right? Who's wrong? Hard to say. I mean, police might not want to like, play their hand yet. Or it's possible all these years later, someone is mistaken. I mean, I've seen law enforcement speak incorrectly about their own cases before, especially if it's been a long time since they've been in it.

• 16:34Ashley Flowers?

  So I don't know. Or maybe they had stuff, but no longer do. The one thing I will say is like, it seems like there is some confusion. And it seems to me like something law enforcement should clear up with the family, who deserves some real clarity around this like, very important topic. And it's worth noting, I mean, the family advocate is also hearing this secondhand from the family. But I get the impression that the family might actually know a lot. Because some of them showed up at that lot where the truck is, right after police did. They had actually figured out where it might be because a niece, who wasn't as keyed into what was going on, told them that she had seen it in that area. But she hadn't said anything earlier because she hadn't gone back to the Markley house after the funeral.

• 17:19Ashley Flowers?

  And remember, until then, everyone thought that John was so distraught over his sister's death that he just chose not to go. So she didn't even know anything was wrong the first time she saw the truck, until like, hours after. And so then she raises the alarm bells when she learns that John and Shelley were officially considered missing. And at that point, the family starts going out in the last area she saw it, looking for the truck. But John's family told us that when they found it with police in the lot, police let one of them go inside before processing it, which is, to me, wild. Yeah. And when I talk about like, was there evidence, was there not? The family isn't even sure that police ever even dusted for fingerprints. So if that's true, sure, you didn't find anything. But like, you also didn't look. Right.

• 18:04Ashley Flowers?

  And I don't know why you wouldn't dust for fingerprints. Because they could tell someone's hands had been all over that truck as soon as they found it.

• 18:14Ashley Flowers?

  John's sister told us that when that niece initially saw John's truck, she was at a Walmart across the street from where the truck was later found. And that's where she first saw it, in that parking lot, Walmart parking lot. Again, didn't stick out to her at first. Now, when she saw it, the truck was covered in a film of dirt, just like really, really muddy. So, knowing how John was about his cars, this niece wrote a message, like you know how you like draw on the back of the car? It was like, "Hi, Uncle John." She was trying to kind of rile him up, thinking that he and Shelley were probably inside shopping. And when she ended up leaving the store, the truck was gone. So, again, she like just assumed they went home, everything was fine. But now, it's gone as in someone moved it?

• 18:58Ashley Flowers?

  Right, and probably just across the street to the lot where it's eventually found. And John's brother-in-law said that he thinks whoever moved the truck is involved in John and Shelley's disappearance, and that it was moved because that person got scared when they saw the message that John's niece wrote. Like, they didn't think someone would clock the truck as John and Shelley so soon. And because it's still only been a day since they were last seen, John's brother-in-law gets on police to check surveillance footage from the Walmart. Yeah. I mean, like, this person is probably on there. But by the time they do, the tape has been recorded over. A restaurant and a hardware store by the other lot had their cameras turned off that day.

• 19:43Ashley Flowers?

  So, nothing is on there either. So with the truck leading to nothing but dead ends, police have to switch gears. They look into John and Shelley's finances to see if there has been any activity. They learn that on December 14th, the day before John and Shelley went missing, they took out a loan, not from their bank, but from a consumer lending company. And it's not a huge amount, a little over $1,600, but they put down a lot of collateral, like lots of furniture, three of John's shotguns that we mentioned, a TV and his accessories, a lawnmower. And interestingly, just two and a half months earlier, John took out a loan from the same company,

• 20:26Ashley Flowers?

  though he didn't put down nearly as much collateral at the time. According to a local Ohio paper called The Morning Journal, a detective said that the first loan was taken to buy new tires for John's semi. We were told that John was recovering from a back injury that made it hard for him to work. But John and Shelley seemed to be keeping up with the payments on his treatments. They always paid off their credit cards on time. And according to another Ohio newspaper, The Plain Dealer, John also sold their above-ground pool recently to help pay for his sister's holistic medical treatments in Mexico before she died. But even that seemed to be paid off, too. So, police aren't finding any eye-popping debts. But this second loan, no one can figure out why John and Shelley took that one out

• 21:11Ashley Flowers?

  or where the money went. Because from what we were told, when police go through recent transactions in John and Shelley's checking account at a local bank, there are no big deposits that we know of after they get that loan. But there is an interesting withdrawal. At 10:36 a.m., on the day they went missing, a $1,000 check was cashed from their account, leaving $1,800 in the checking. John's sister said that the check was made out to self, like a personal check to them that was cashed. So it had to have been one of them who was on the account who cashed that. But the weird thing was, is it wasn't cashed at the branch that they normally go to,

• 21:54Ashley Flowers?

  which was only like three minutes away from their house. The branch where it gets cashed is about 10 minutes away, which isn't far or anything.

• 22:03Speaker 01

  But when someone goes missing, even the smallest things that are out of the norm

• 22:07Ashley Flowers?

  You're looking at everything.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, become like super suspicious.

• 22:09Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. So when police go to this branch and they talk to the teller who cashed the check, they find that she actually knows John because she works at both locations. And she tells them that that morning, John drove up through the drive-thru teller's window in his pickup. Shelley was sitting next to him. And she signed the check before handing it to John to put in the carrier.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Which, for people who are too young to have like used anything other than mobile banking, that's like a little bucket thing that you

• 22:37Ashley Flowers?

  It like literally didn't even cross my mind that we had to explain what that is. Do people not know that you have to like use the tube?

• 22:43Speaker 01

  I don't, I, I think that's a thing that we need to explain. There's like a little tube that goes to the

• 22:47Ashley Flowers?

  Someone the other day told me that they grew up listening to Crime Junkie and I was like, well, that's

• 22:51Speaker 01

  Oh, nope.

• 22:52Ashley Flowers?

  Anyways.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  Don't talk about that.

• 22:53Ashley Flowers?

  Carriers, you got it. So anyways, they send this check and as the teller took it, she looked into John's truck and she saw that Shelley was sitting between John, who's in the driver's side, and another person, a man on the passenger side. Now, she couldn't see this other guy super well, just said that he was slim with dark hair. But she said, you know, John was acting kind of weird. Like when she handed John the envelope full of cash, he just looked straight ahead as he drove off. And normally he would be super friendly to her, like they would maybe joke around, but he didn't even say goodbye before he drove off, which to her was odd.

• 23:30Speaker 01

  And this checkbook, like that they wrote the check out of, was back at the house or was it found in the truck?

• 23:35Ashley Flowers?

  Neither. Uh, John's sister said the checkbook is still missing to this day, as is John's wallet.

• 23:41Speaker 01

  Wait, I know this is the 90s, but banks are like the one place that has had security cameras since the Stone Age, like forever, and they have usually like pretty good systems for that. This other dude, he has to be on camera, right?

• 23:54Ashley Flowers?

  Well, no. So former Sheriff Altier told us there was surveillance footage from the bank, but it wasn't clear enough to identify whoever this mystery man is. And so this, this, you know, witness account from the teller is the last time that John and Shelley Markley are ever seen alive. And where their truck went after this is unknown. But John's brother told us that he's got a theory.

• 24:24Ashley Flowers?

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• 25:07Ashley Flowers?

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• 26:35Ashley Flowers?

  After news of this sighting spreads, another relative, John's brother-in-law, realizes that he actually saw John's pickup pass his house a little after John and Shelley cashed that check. And this brother-in-law lives near a dirt road, which, when he hears this, makes John's brother think about how dirty that truck was when it was found, dirtier than John would have ever let it get. So maybe that is where the pickup truck was driven before his niece spotted it. So John's brother drives out to that dirt road. This is about 20 minutes from where the truck was found, and he thinks the mud that he finds there matches the mud covering the truck. The road's also surrounded by a remote wildlife reserve area, so...

• 27:20Ashley Flowers?

  Is this where John and Shelley wound up? Did someone take advantage of the winter weather to dispose of them when there weren't many people around? And if it sounds like by now, the Markleys are starting to go a bit rogue and like taking the investigation into their own hands. Well, that's because they are. They haven't been impressed with the investigation so far. Yes, police have pulled some banking records. Yes, they've talked to some neighbors, put out an APB on the truck. But there still hasn't been a real ground search for John and Shelley yet. And they feel like police don't view John or Shelley, blue collar parents, as important enough to search for. So they start organizing searches of that area themselves.

• 28:04Ashley Flowers?

  And not just that area, local lakes, forests, parks, they're doing it all on their own. But despite all their suspicions about that dirt road, nothing is found in that area or anywhere else. And Christmas comes and goes without new developments, good or bad. Though, after Christmas, there is a strange development. It's around 8:00 a.m., the morning after Christmas Day. And John's brother-in-law, Gene, wakes up to John and Shelley's home phone ringing. He and his wife, another of John's sisters, have been staying at their house, taking care of the kids. That's why they're there that morning. So Gene's still half asleep when he picks up the phone.

• 28:48Ashley Flowers?

  But he hears a man with a muffled, raspy voice on the other end, asking to talk to Ruth. And he tells this guy, like, no, Ruth is asleep. And so then the man asks for John's sister. Gene obviously assumes this man is talking about, like, his wife, but she's asleep too. So he offers to pass along a message, like, I'll just tell her when she wakes up. But the man threatens to hang up if Gene doesn't wake up either his wife or Ruth. And in that moment, Gene is like, okay, whatever, dude. And he hangs up before falling back asleep, thinking like, yes, what happened was weird, but like, nothing more.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  You're right.

• 29:26Ashley Flowers?

  And nothing else happens the rest of that day. Like, he probably doesn't even think about it a ton. But three days later, on December 29th, around the same time, like 8 a.m., Gene gets another call at the Markley House from what sounds like this same man. This call is short. This guy doesn't ask for Ruth or his wife again, but he tells Gene that John and Shelley are alive and being held in Toronto, and he can bring them home for $10,000.

• 29:55Speaker 01

  So this guy who's now called twice, he's saying that these pretty normal parents from a small town in Ohio are being held for ransom in Canada.

• 30:06Ashley Flowers?

  Another country, yeah.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  Like, I'm not, I'm not buying that.

• 30:10Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know if Gene knows what to believe, but like, this is over his head. So when this guy says he's gonna call back with more information and hangs up, Gene immediately calls 911. Police tell Gene that they'll get him a recording device to tape any future calls. And basically, like, you know, if anything happens between now and then, just like, write everything down. And almost as soon as Gene hangs up with the police, two more calls come in from this same man. On the first call, the man tells Gene to sell John's Corvette, which is still in the garage, to raise the money, or John and Shelley are gonna be moved to another location the next day, and he won't keep them safe. Then on the second call, the man claims that on New Year's Eve, John and Shelley are going to be sacrificed by a cult.

• 30:54Speaker 01

  Oh, this escalated, like-

• 30:56Ashley Flowers?

  Canada cults were everywhere.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, so what's-

• 31:00Ashley Flowers?

  I know. And I don't know, like, the details of this, or like, what exactly he says about said cult, because these calls aren't recorded.

• 31:06Speaker 01

  Right.

• 31:07Ashley Flowers?

  But it does seem like this is the first time a cult comes up, like, comes straight out of nowhere. But I bet it freaks him out. And like, I think he's really trying to figure out how he could come up with this money, because the next day, when the man calls again, Gene tells him, "Listen, I can't sell John's Corvette. I'm not the owner. I don't have the title." But he says, "Listen, I do have the money. You're gonna get it. Like, it'll be no problem." Like, and I guess the guy is okay with that. I mean, it doesn't matter, I guess, how you get the money, as long as you do. And so, this guy calls again the next morning. This is now New Year's Eve. And at this point, police have dropped off a recording device. So all of this is on tape. And this guy is asking if Gene has the money. Now Jean doesn't actually have the money,

• 31:52Ashley Flowers?

  but he bluffs, he says yes, and the man gives him instructions for how, where, when to deliver it. Now, we don't have the tape of this call, but we do have transcripts of the call that Britt, I'm gonna have you read for us.

• 32:08Speaker 01

  Caller, hello. You have one hour to make it to rallies in front of the Eastwood Mall. In the coin return, there will be a note. You will follow that note to a T. If I see anyone following you, or see any law, or if there's anything else, the deal will be done and that's it. Cause at eight tonight, it's all over. Jean, well, what about John and Shelley? Caller, they will be, you will be, inaudible, within an hour after you start this. I'm going to run you around a little bit, make sure you ain't being followed. After that, you will have them. I got them away from the people last night. They're in an abandoned house not far from you.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  Follow me to the T, you will have no problems. In the coin return, there's a note. Follow the note to the T. You will have exactly one minute from the time you pick up the note to, as you read it, to the time you make the first point. After that, you will have two minutes to the next point, and you will follow it to a T. Inaudible, I walk away, I go away. Inaudible, this is your last chance. You understand? So was this, like, we know this was being recorded. We don't have that. But do we know if this guy was using any sort of like, voice changer or anything when he called?

• 33:29Ashley Flowers?

  No, it's not what you would like, probably imagine where it's like the...

• 33:32Speaker 01

  Like the whoa, whoa, whoa.

• 33:33Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, no. Besides like muffling himself, he didn't have anything else as far as I know.

• 33:37Speaker 01

  And I'm assuming that Jean didn't like, recognize this guy's voice at all?

• 33:41Ashley Flowers?

  He didn't, no. And according to court records, there is another family member who at one point thought it could have been a former employee of John's. So like, obviously they're letting everyone hear this. But like, long story short, we were told that that guy was in the hospital when John and Shelley went missing, so he couldn't have been involved. So, police do try and trace this call, but they can't pinpoint an exact location. All they know is that the call is made from a town about a half an hour away from John and Shelley's house. So their best bet at this point is to catch this guy in the act, at the money drop on New Year's Eve. Police get a team ready to go help Gene in what is probably the wildest sting operation any Ohio PD's ever planned.

• 34:26Ashley Flowers?

  Gene meets up with police at a restaurant near the mall that they've decided on as a meeting point. And an officer goes and gets that note from the change return.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  Why doesn't Gene get it?

• 34:37Ashley Flowers?

  Well, I think police want to make sure this is all legit. Like, I don't know if they have questions about Gene at this point, but they want to make sure Gene's not like hiding the note in his hand or something.

• 34:48Speaker 01

  Right. Gene doesn't like find the note because he had it the whole time.

• 34:51Ashley Flowers?

  Exactly. I mean, you gotta remember too, this is like a small town sheriff's department. All of this is probably sounding so unbelievable for them. Like, you gotta rule out sometimes like the most like simple things. But they have an officer do it, and sure enough, the note is there, just like the caller said it would be. According to the plane dealer, this note is written on ruled notebook paper in like block letter handwriting, and it's full of misspellings. But it gives the next steps, which again, I'll have you read for us.

• 35:24Speaker 01

  Go to Kaufman's entrance next to mall entrance. Park in front next to sidewalk. Once inside door, go left to sweatshirts with Penguin Bird on them. Put package between shirts and leave by same door. Then, drive to back of JCPenney entrance. Go into telephone next to restrooms. Wait 15 minutes. If no law is seen, a boy will give you a note with the address. If any law or anything doesn't look right, go back and get package, because no deal. One, I can like close my eyes and see this mall and see the JCPenney entrance and the telephone and everything, but I also love that Penguin sweatshirts are the landmark here.

• 36:07Ashley Flowers?

  I know, so it sounds loud of nowhere, but they're actually a mascot for a local university. But yeah, still, it's, everything about this is odd. This is what we're saying. So, police tell Gene to do as the note says. So he walks into the store, leaves this brown bag full of not money, but dish rags in the middle of a display of Penguin sweatshirts. And police staking out the place, watch and wait. A few people, like a teenage girl, stop to look at the bag, but nobody picks it up. So somehow, police make contact with Gene and they tell him to get the bag and just try this whole drop again. But again... Nobody comes to get it.

• 36:50Ashley Flowers?

  But that's when police get a call on their car phone from Jean's wife. Apparently, the man just called her and he's pissed. He knows that Jean brought police. But he's willing to give Jean another chance to follow his instructions. He wants Jean to leave the bag in the bathroom of a nearby gas station now instead. So, police regroup with Jean and they move the operation over to this gas station.

• 37:18Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, this guy's mad because Jean is working with the police. Like, are the police even trying to make it, like?

• 37:26Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Hidden that they're involved because it seems like they're kind of like.

• 37:29Ashley Flowers?

  They went and picked up the coin thing.

• 37:31Speaker 01

  They're picking up the note. It feels like they're like about to drive Jean to this gas station. Like, he's very, very clearly working.

• 37:39Ashley Flowers?

  Directly with them and, and like, it feels obvious because they're like, they're like, hey, try dropping it again. I don't know how like covert they're being.

• 37:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:46Ashley Flowers?

  But at least in this, like, when they're headed to this gas station, they do try and coordinate surveillance and make sure the officers and the cars, especially the ones that the caller might have seen in the mall lot, aren't parked anywhere near the gas station. You know, like, stick out 101.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  I'd say it's a super secret. Got it.

• 38:02Ashley Flowers?

  They are somehow watching though, so they're not that far away. And they're watching as Jean pulls up in front of the bathroom's door, goes inside with the bag, comes back out and drives away. And they wait. And just a few minutes later, a white car pulls up with two people inside. The passenger gets out, goes in the bathroom, but police can't see what they look like because they have a hood pulled over their head. Now, when they come back out, they're empty-handed. This time though, at least with the hood down. And what they notice is it's a teenage girl. Except, it's the teenage girl that police saw earlier, stopping to look at the bag by the Penguin sweatshirt.

• 38:44Speaker 01

  Wait, what?

• 38:46Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and they are sure this is the same girl because, like the girl at the mall, she is very pregnant. And when the white car pulls around to pick her up, police recognize the driver too. They saw him at the same store with the girl when she came back a second time to look at the bag. And this was less than a half an hour ago. So the girl gets into this man's car, then police surround it to arrest them both. They identify their suspects as 45-year-old Steven Durst and his 18-year-old daughter, Deanna. It turns out Steven has a history with the Markley family, and it isn't pretty. Police learned that Steven was one of John's employees at the trucking company.

• 39:30Ashley Flowers?

  He and two of his younger kids actually lived with John and Shelley for a few months while he was going through a divorce. Per a court order, if the Markleys hadn't taken them in, Steven would have lost custody of his kids because he was on the road so much. But he ends up getting kicked out and fired after this money dispute. John may have withheld some of his last paycheck because he suspected Steven of selling off some fuel on a truck route, which Steven denies. He claims he left the house on his own when he got another job.

• 40:02Speaker 01

  And how recently did all this go down?

• 40:04Ashley Flowers?

  So Steven lived with the Markleys from October of 1993 to June of 1994. And police learned from the family that Steven had come back to the house a few times, asking for either his job back or for the money that he thought John owed him. And John's sister told us that one of those times, the argument spilled from the house to the garage, and Steven threatened to beat John with a two-by-four that he found there in the garage. So, like, hearing all this, police probably feel like they have a clear motive when they charged Steven with extortion.

• 40:38Speaker 01

  And does Steven's voice match the mystery caller's voice?

• 40:43Ashley Flowers?

  If you ask one of John's brothers, yes.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  And does he happen to look like the guy that the bank teller saw in the truck with John and Shelley the morning they went missing?

• 40:52Ashley Flowers?

  That I don't know, because I don't think they ever get around to showing her a photo.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  What?

• 40:58Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, so this is like a kind of a side thing, but remember how I said that some of the Markleys started going like kind of rogue during their investigation?

• 41:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:05Ashley Flowers?

  Well, some of the family told us that one of their brothers-in-law paid that bank teller a visit and implied that she knew more than she was saying, which like freaked her out. So then she stopped speaking to police, and then a few months later, she moved out of state. And so I don't think police ever followed up with her. And we tried to reach out to her, but like, we haven't heard back from her yet. So, everything is still suspicious, like teller ID or not. And it feels like they have a strong case against him for extortion. But do they have him on abduction? TBD.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Bigger question mark.

• 41:40Ashley Flowers?

  Police questioned Deanna, who tells them that she didn't know anything about being involved in an extortion plan. She just did as she was told by her dad. Police seemed to believe her because they end up releasing her and focusing their case on Steven. On January 3rd, 1996, he pleads innocent to his extortion charge and he gets out on bond. And he agrees to take a polygraph for police ostensibly to try and clear his name.

• 42:06Speaker 01

  Okay, but like, what's his story? Like, he just happened to be in both places?

• 42:12Ashley Flowers?

  Yes, basically, yeah. Steven says that he takes his kid to the mall every weekend and New Year's Eve was no different. And then after that, Deanna had to use the bathroom, so he pulled over at the gas station where they ended up getting arrested. So yeah, him being there is just one big weird coincidence.

• 42:28Speaker 01

  Got it.

• 42:30Ashley Flowers?

  And if I were police, I wouldn't buy that. Like, if Steven's lying about the extortion, then like, what else is he lying about? So they're probably hoping that this polygraph, the one he agreed to, will solve John and Shelley's case. So here's what they ask. I actually have like the questions and answers. I put it in your folder.

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Okay. He was asked, "Were you involved in John and Shelley Markley's disappearance in any way?"

• 42:58Ashley Flowers?

  He says, "Nope."

• 43:00Speaker 01

  "Did you see John and Shelley Markley after they were reported missing?"

• 43:04Ashley Flowers?

  Nope again?

• 43:05Speaker 01

  "Do you know where John and Shelley are now?"

• 43:07Ashley Flowers?

  No.

• 43:08Speaker 01

  "Did you know in advance that John and Shelley Markley had disappeared?"

• 43:12Ashley Flowers?

  Last answer, no.

• 43:14Speaker 01

  Okay, and?

• 43:16Ashley Flowers?

  Drumroll, please. Steven fails miserably. The polygraph indicates deception on each answer.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Oh, so not like?

• 43:27Ashley Flowers?

  Oh, no, no, no.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  He answered no, but like, question marks on if it was deceptive?

• 43:31Ashley Flowers?

  Each one.

• 43:32Speaker 01

  Cool.

• 43:33Ashley Flowers?

  A clear sign to police that he's likely a liar, but still not enough to charge him with the abduction.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:39Ashley Flowers?

  And even by the time the extortion case goes to trial, police still haven't found any solid evidence connecting him to John and Shelley's disappearance. They also still haven't found any sign of Shelley or John, even by the time Steven's convicted of extortion on August 29th, 1996. And he gets sentenced to four to 10 years in prison. Steven has always maintained his innocence in John and Shelley's disappearance and on all charges, including extortion. He still claims that he just happened to be in the wrong places at the wrong time. But, this is where things get a little spicy. A source sent us recent audio of a man.

• 44:24Ashley Flowers?

  This source claims that man is Steven, but we have not been able to confirm. And in this audio, this man seems to be admitting to extortion. On the recording, this guy says that he got four to 10 years because he threatened a couple for money he claims they owed him. But he doesn't mention a ransom plot or actually say John and Shelley's names specifically.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  I have a feeling you can't tell me this, but who sent us this audio?

• 44:51Ashley Flowers?

  You're right, I can't. They only would talk to us on the condition of anonymity. They did give us the audio, though, and it is wild to listen to.

• 44:59Speaker 03

  And they owed me $10,000. And it went on for like, four years, they didn't pay me. So finally I got them, you know, I'm gonna get paid, I'm gonna break this [bleep] lady. So, about another two or three months went on, and I told them I was coming over. So I came over, and I told them, again, I'm gonna break this [bleep] lady, I'm [bleep] the old lady in front of you.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Okay, that is wild, but...

• 45:33Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 45:34Speaker 01

  He never mentions the Markleys.

• 45:36Ashley Flowers?

  I know. And listen, that was just a clip of it. The source actually asked about them specifically, and the man being recorded says, quote, "That's part of it," end quote. But then he goes on to claim that police framed him for the ransom plot because they didn't have any leads or suspects. Now, it's interesting when our team look at Steven and like, who he was then and now, because he has racked up a few criminal charges over the years. Now, to be fair, a lot of them are traffic citations, but three of the more serious charges occurred right before John and Shelley disappeared. Rape?

• 46:17Ashley Flowers?

  Disorderly conduct and resisting arrest. Now, the rape charge seems to have been dismissed because the complainant failed to appear in court. But more recently, in 2019, Stephen faced a domestic violence charge. We reached out to Stephen and his family members for a response to these allegations. He ended up serving just four years of his sentence, so he is a free man, but we haven't gotten a response from anyone. And we couldn't speak to Deanna, who I had the most questions for, because she passed away in 2022.

• 46:51Speaker 01

  But did police ever circle back to her or talk to anyone else around him? Like, where was Stephen the day that John and Shelley went missing? What's his alibi? Was anyone willing to talk after he went to prison, like while he was locked up?

• 47:07Ashley Flowers?

  That's what I'm saying. I have all the questions for Deanna, who we know was with him.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 47:10Ashley Flowers?

  At least on the day of the extortion. I know police definitely tried to talk to her over the years, but without success. And because current investigators didn't speak with us or share the case files, we don't know what their investigation into Stephen looked like beyond that, besides that they ultimately weren't able to charge him with anything except for extortion. So just to be clear, none of this means Stephen had anything to do with John and Shelley's disappearance. And just because he was found guilty of one crime doesn't mean he's guilty of another. But it tells you why John's family and many others are suspicious of him, or at least some family members are.

• 47:52Ashley Flowers?

  Others actually think he's not the most likely culprit. On December 3rd, 1998, Shelley's mom ends up writing a letter to Stephen in prison, telling him that she believes he's innocent. Let me read it for you. To tell you the truth, I really believe you have been made someone's scapegoat. I do not trust the Markleys at all and feel they are behind this whole mess. I talked to the sheriff, she's talking about Altier, a few days ago, and he said he feels I am 100% correct. So there's that. Listen, she goes on to say that the Markleys have done a lot to their side of the family,

• 48:37Ashley Flowers?

  like keeping them from seeing the kids. Because after Shelley and John disappeared, John and Shelley's families sort of turn on one another. I think in large part because of the lack of answers in this case. I mean, they don't know what happened to their loved ones, and without answers to fill in the gaps, it leaves a lot of room for you to try and fill them in yourselves. And I've seen this in more than one case where like, when a couple goes missing, like there just ends up being this huge divide. Now, when we asked former Sheriff Altier if he ever investigated members of the Markley family, he told us that he checked out a few theories, but that nothing came of that, at least while he was on the case.

• 49:17Speaker 01

  So when Shelley's mom says that Steven is innocent, is she thinking like of everything?

• 49:24Ashley Flowers?

  In her mind, yes. And for the time at least, John's family begins to suspect someone else entirely. They begin to suspect that the person behind this all is Shelley.

• 49:37Speaker 01

  I'm sorry, what?

• 49:38Ashley Flowers?

  I know. And they suspect this after learning that her marriage to John may not have been as solid as they all thought. Let's face it, if student loans are slowing down your financial goals, it might be time for a smarter strategy. That's where today's sponsor, SoFi, comes in. SoFi is helping you tackle student debt by refinancing your loans with flexible monthly payments that fit your budget. We're talking about the potential to lower your interest rate, reduce your monthly payment, or even pay off your loan sooner, depending on the term you choose. You can also consolidate your student loans into one simple monthly payment so you could save more each month and work towards achieving your long-term financial ambitions. SoFi offers competitive, fixed, and variable And no origination fees, prepayment fees,

• 50:23Ashley Flowers?

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• 50:53Speaker 01

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• 51:38Speaker 01

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• 52:00Ashley Flowers?

  John's brother told us that right before she and John went missing, Shelley came over needing to talk. And she confessed that she wanted to leave John. She wasn't happy anymore, but she didn't feel like she could. John's sister said that may have been because when Shelley told their mom the same thing, she warned Shelley that if she tried to leave with the kids, John had enough money to fight her until she had nothing left. So some Markley family members wonder if Shelley worked with Steven to get rid of John so that she could start a new life. Okay, then where is Shelley? According to members of John's family at the time, potentially being hidden by other family members.

• 52:45Ashley Flowers?

  His brother-in-law told us Shelley's dad, I guess, drove down to Florida right around when she and John went missing, and that felt strange to him, like, why wouldn't you want to be close as this investigation is unfolding, kind of thing? Mm-hmm. But again, I think your mind is just looking for any kind of connection, and in that moment, even sometimes logic can go out the window when you're just desperate for answers. But the other thing that felt a little off to him, too, is John's brother told us that in 1999, he visited Shelley's brother's condo. He lived out in Vegas at the time. And in 99, he's trying to explore this theory, right? Like, did her family help her disappear? So this is the specific reason he goes. Right, but Vegas is iconically not Florida.

• 53:30Ashley Flowers?

  No, he lives out west, but again, like, did she go to her parents and then go there, like, looking for anything at this point? Okay. So he says when Shelley's brother let him in, he was surprised to see this bachelor's place spotless, which is kind of like old-school thinking, like, men can be clean, too. But he's thinking in his mind, like, he knows Shelley was super tidy, and apparently her brother took 15 minutes to let him in. So John's brother had this feeling that Shelley's brother was hiding something. Or someone. Exactly. Now, we got to talk to Shelley's brother. He remembers this visit, too, and he told us that theory's ridiculous. Of course Shelley wasn't there.

• 54:14Ashley Flowers?

  And he's like, "I can clean a one-bedroom apartment perfectly fine on my own, thank you very much." And in the years since, most of the Markleys have let that theory go, mainly because they always knew Shelley to be the best mom. And you know, if that theory is what happened, like the whole goal would be that so she could be with the kids, right?

• 54:35Speaker 01

  But she hasn't had any contact with the kids in how long?

• 54:39Ashley Flowers?

  Like thirty years, there like, there's no way she would ever, ever do that.

• 54:44Speaker 01

  Especially if her goal in all of this was to

• 54:47Ashley Flowers?

  Get the kids.

• 54:47Speaker 01

  Get the kids, right. Okay, so the family like, isn't on the Shelley train anymore, but are they still like, back to side eyeing Steven, or do they think like a secret third option is what happened?

• 54:59Ashley Flowers?

  So, yes deciding Steven, like he is and always has been the Markleys' prime suspect, even when their theories have gone a little off the rails. And like I said, now, I mean, apart from a few outliers, most of them don't suspect Shelley any longer. Like I said, too much time has passed without her seeing the kids or whatever. But just because they're not all pointing the finger at Shelley, that doesn't mean the family finger pointing has stopped. Because when we asked Shelley's brother what he thought happened, he gave us a whole new theory. And like, I, we were really keen to ask him because like, his family hasn't been in the press nearly as much as John's side.

• 55:39Ashley Flowers?

  And it was so interesting, this is where like, this huge rabbit hole opened up because he didn't point the finger at Steven. He didn't point the finger at the Markleys. Instead, his theory gave way to an entirely new suspect. But for you to understand that, you have to get the history lesson on their family that he gave us. So tell me if, if anything, it's confusing, because I'm about to like, drop some like, family connections and names.

• 56:04Speaker 01

  Okay, got some lore coming up.

• 56:06Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. So, when he and Shelley were kids, their mom had an affair with, I'm gonna go slow here, their dad's sisters.

• 56:17Speaker 01

  So their aunts.

• 56:18Ashley Flowers?

  Right. Their aunts' father-in-law.

• 56:22Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 56:23Ashley Flowers?

  It's like the aunt's husband's dad.

• 56:25Speaker 01

  So not, not blood related in any way.

• 56:29Ashley Flowers?

  Right.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  But very, very messy.

• 56:33Ashley Flowers?

  Oh yeah. So, back in the day, their mom is having this affair. Mom was planning on leaving their dad to be with this guy. But, on November 19th, 1977, said father-in-law, who she was having the affair with, yeah. He is found dead inside his car parked on these railroad tracks. Shotgun blast to the head. Now, Shelley's dad gets convicted of the murder. And their mom divorces him while he is like away in prison. Except, he might have been wrongly convicted. What? I know, because Shelley's brother claims

• 57:16Ashley Flowers?

  that this other guy, father-in-law, right, affair guy, his own son killed him. And he claims that he did this because the son didn't want to lose his inheritance if his dad left like their family for Shelley's mom. So he shot and killed his own father, is the claim. Wait, so how does he know this? Because, the, okay, so guy who allegedly killed his dad, his son- Grandson of- Of a fair guy. Of a fair guy. He told Shelley's brother in like this drunken confession. So, this, this grandson, or son, whatever, like the one who's telling brother, he claims that one night he was at home, or whatever,

• 58:01Ashley Flowers?

  he heard what he thought were fireworks in the garage. But when he went to look, he saw his grandfather's body sprawled out on a tarp. And he says basically his dad framed Shelley's dad. Okay. And at the time, when he first hears this drunken confession, Shelley's brother thought it was drunken nonsense. But then, years later, he says his mom got a hold of the court records. And she claimed that they had been tampered with. Like, any mention of a fair guy's son had been taken out.

• 58:38Ashley Flowers?

  Shelley's brother doesn't know exactly how or why they had been changed, but he remembers that his mom only like noticed this because she still had original documents to compare the new ones to.

• 58:50Speaker 01

  So she could see that there had been like the documents had been like doctored or changed.

• 58:55Ashley Flowers?

  He said there are discrepancies, yeah. And he said that made him go back to like thinking about that drunk confession like, wait, maybe that was real. So that's, that's the family history. Shelley's brother believes that his mom may have shared her theory about all of this with Shelley. And if she did, did John overhear, did Shelley tell John? Basically, John could have caught wind of that and then maybe convinced Shelley to extort the real, who they're saying is the real killer.

• 59:32Speaker 01

  So.

• 59:34Ashley Flowers?

  I know.

• 59:34Speaker 01

  We thought that this very normal Midwest couple parents had originally been abducted and held for ransom by a cult.

• 59:44Ashley Flowers?

  In Canada.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  In Canada, forgot about that part. That's how wild it was. But now we think, like in the middle of that, there's also an extortion plot. But now we think that John and Shelley were also extortionists?

• 59:58Ashley Flowers?

  Oh, yeah. I thought you have, I didn't even like layer that on top of one another.

• 1:00:03Speaker 01

  There's like.

• 1:00:04Ashley Flowers?

  I don't know if we think it like.

• 1:00:06Speaker 01

  There's like extortion inception right now.

• 1:00:08Ashley Flowers?

  Shelley's brother thinks it's a possibility.

• 1:00:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:13Ashley Flowers?

  Because he says, here's the thing. So he says he remembers John as someone who would do anything to get ahead, especially financially, and that Shelley kind of went along with anything he asked her to do. And he's not the only one who thinks John wasn't totally above board. A source close to the family mentioned that there has been speculation. Remember I mentioned that their like original house burned down like back in the day?

• 1:00:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:00:39Ashley Flowers?

  So there's some speculation that that wasn't an accident, that maybe the fire was set intentionally.

• 1:00:46Speaker 01

  Like insurance fraud.

• 1:00:48Ashley Flowers?

  Yes. So to Shelley's brother, this theory doesn't feel like a stretch. Especially after he alleges bank records showed a $30,000 withdraw from his uncle's account at some point.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Okay, Ashley, honestly, this feels like a whole other episode.

• 1:01:11Ashley Flowers?

  It feels like a limited series. Like I am trying to make this as simple as possible, but nothing about this case is simple. And I'm sure a ton of this might be able to be cleared up in the police records, but like.

• 1:01:22Speaker 01

  We don't have them.

• 1:01:23Ashley Flowers?

  We don't have police records. We don't have, I don't even have the bank records to verify anything that like, that there were these big withdrawals. And the uncle and the cousin, so like son accused of killing his own dad. And then his son who drunkenly like opened up this can of worms. Yeah. They're all gone, as are Shelley's parents. So I can't even talk to them to try and like run this down.

• 1:01:47Speaker 01

  Okay, but I need you to break some of this down for me. Like if this $30,000 withdrawal happened, where did it go? Like it's not like it went to John and Shelley. They were taking out like these like consumer loans and like kind of frequently it seems.

• 1:02:05Ashley Flowers?

  I know. Like the only thing I can think of is like because they weren't in a bad financial spot. Like I don't know if police dug in enough to see like, oh, I see you paid your credit card bill and I see that it came out of your checking. Like, was everything paid off and they were in such a good spot because they had an influx of money and then that was going away? And they were like trying to get more?

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  I was like, but none of the theories really explain the loans.

• 1:02:27Ashley Flowers?

  Well, that's what I'm saying. Like the only way the loans are explained to me is if like the $30,000, they had run out of that. And they needed to like get more money. So they're getting the loans. What if they went back, tried to extort for more money and this person realized that like, oh, this is never going to end? I mean, this is, this is such like a stretch. I'm just like trying to make sense because you're right. Like if you, if you got $30,000, why are you taking out a $1,600 like payday loan?

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  After like a thousand dollar, like there was another loan before that too.

• 1:02:56Ashley Flowers?

  I know. But I always come back to like, what is the Occam's razor in this story?

• 1:03:01Speaker 01

  The most likely answer is probably the truth.

• 1:03:03Ashley Flowers?

  And yeah, we still have Steven, the guy who was convicted of extorting the family with an abduction scheme after they were abducted.

• 1:03:14Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:03:15Ashley Flowers?

  After they were likely killed, at least in the minds of their families. Because they lose hope of finding them alive. And on April 28th, 1999, John and Shelley are declared legally dead. And while sporadic searches continue whenever a tip is called in, nothing ever ends up panning out. Though I think a few of the tips are interesting, at least worth like talking about a little. According to FBI documents, in April 2005, a reliable source calls law enforcement claiming that John and Shelley were buried in a stretch of wildlife area. Interestingly, the same wildlife area off that dirt road that John's brother checked out in those very early days.

• 1:03:59Ashley Flowers?

  And on October 24th, 2006, it says a source, could be the same one, but all the documents are like pretty heavily redacted. But a source gives more detail on the burial, though I don't know what that detail is specifically. And in the days that follow, FBI cadaver dogs scour the wildlife area, leaving no stone unturned. And even though both dogs have a strong reaction to some area in there, they don't end up actually alerting on human remains.

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  And because everything is redacted, we have no idea who called in this tip.

• 1:04:35Ashley Flowers?

  We don't. The family advocate we talked to has a guess, though. They think it could have been Deanna, because police seem to have spoken to this source multiple times. But again, so much redaction, I don't know for sure. We did get some screenshots from a source who sent them on the condition of anonymity.

• 1:04:54Speaker 01

  I'm like all this cloak and dagger, it's just like so much, I know.

• 1:04:58Ashley Flowers?

  But we got some screenshots of messages with a relative of Deanna's from 2015. And this relative claimed to our source that Deanna was having like this crisis of conscience then. And she admitted that while she just did as her dad asked initially with like that bag pickup, she realized after the extortion saga that he had done, quote, "something really bad." Something he had planned, something he had premeditated.

• 1:05:26Ashley Flowers?

  And she was so scared for her life and her child's life that she kept quiet all these years. But then she called in this tip in 2005, basically saying that she believed John and Shelley were buried somewhere in the woods behind this cemetery. Now, our source didn't make sure that this information got reported to police in 2015, and it seems like police looked into it because they said publicly that there were updates in the case that year. And former Sheriff Altier confirms that Deanna came forward to police a few times with information they investigated, although he said he couldn't elaborate on what exactly. But she always ended up ghosting or backtracking. And when we asked if that information was consistent with the suspicion that Stephen

• 1:06:10Ashley Flowers?

  was involved in John and Shelley's disappearance, Sheriff Altier said yes.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Okay, but then where are they?

• 1:06:18Ashley Flowers?

  That is the question police are constantly chasing. It's like when one lead fizzles, another one will pop up. Like in 2006, they get another tip that sends them to a rental property that belongs to one of John's sisters and her husband. And the husband, who would be John's brother-in-law, he told us that a neighbor saw him like digging there around at the time that John and Shelley went missing. And so she told her friend who worked as a dispatch at the sheriff's department. So then police came and like dug around their septic tank, but they didn't find anything.

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  But they dug around the septic tank? Did they look inside the septic tank?

• 1:06:56Ashley Flowers?

  No, they didn't actually look inside the septic tank. I don't know why, but it stood out to other people because recently in 2024, police went back to that property with the sister and the husband's permission to do just that. Again, didn't find anything. And when we asked former Sheriff Altier if said brother-in-law was ever a suspect, he told us that some names came up that police worked to eliminate, but that was all. Now, family members told us that John had disputes with his brother-in-law, some involving land, which one sibling describes as like, not disputes, but they describe it as a feud. But they also said like in the same breath that they don't believe the brother-in-law had anything to do with John and Shelley's disappearance.

• 1:07:40Ashley Flowers?

  And when we talked to him directly, John's brother-in-law told us that, yeah, like him and John had their spats, but overall, they actually had a good relationship. And he swore to God on his life, on his kids and his family, that he did not kill John. He claims that one of the officers gave him inside information during one of those searches they were doing. He was told that they got a tip about Steven, saying that a few years after John and Shelley went missing, a family member came forward saying they drove Steven out to that wildlife area to move John and Shelley's pickup truck, likely to the Walmart where that niece saw it.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  Wait, this is a family member of Steven's or a family member of John and Shelley helped move it?

• 1:08:25Ashley Flowers?

  A family member of Steven's.

• 1:08:26Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:08:27Ashley Flowers?

  And John's brother actually heard something similar, though, like he hadn't even reported it to police. About a year ago, his ex-wife called him and said that she had started hearing rumors around town because she actually lived in the town where Steven was from. And the rumor she was hearing was that day John and Shelley went missing, Steven asked a friend for a ride home from somewhere. She didn't know exactly where. And when the friend got there, Steven was covered in blood and said that he needed help moving the pickup. So the two of them moved it back to the parking lot where it was found. And whether he's friend or family, maybe this guy could potentially also be the source of those tips that led to that 2006 search of the wildlife area.

• 1:09:07Speaker 01

  Which is great if he is. Don't know if it changes anything if he isn't, but John and Shelley aren't in that wildlife area.

• 1:09:17Ashley Flowers?

  Hmm, I don't know if you can say that with like as much certainty. No, they have not found them in their searches, but like so much of rural Ohio, the area we're talking about is huge.

• 1:09:29Speaker 01

  Like it's like rural Indiana. We're right next door. Like it can be really, really vast.

• 1:09:34Ashley Flowers?

  Yeah, and they can't search all of it, which is why what police are asking for, what they need are tips to narrow down a search area. And it's possible they already have something. From what we gathered from our FOIA denial, we were told there are active updates on the case. I don't know what those are exactly, but the more information that can be shared with law enforcement right now, the better. Because this December will mark 30 years since John and Shelley went missing. And even though a lot of people we've mentioned in this episode are gone, someone out there listening knows something, something that could bring closure to five kids who have been waiting way too long for their parents to come home. And nothing is too small to share.

• 1:10:18Ashley Flowers?

  Even if you saw the red Chevy Silverado truck that John and Shelley drove in the Warren, Ohio, area on December 15, 1995, or maybe you spotted something off near their house in Bristolville, you could help solve this case by contacting the Trumbull County Sheriff's Office at 330-675-2540.

• 1:10:53Ashley Flowers?

  You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.

• 1:10:58Speaker 01

  You can also follow us on Instagram at @crimejunkiepodcast.

• 1:11:01Ashley Flowers?

  We'll be back next week with a brand new episode.

• 1:11:40Ashley Flowers?

  Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So, what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?

• 1:11:49Speaker 04

  When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir, and that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather round, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:12:21Speaker 01

  Growing up in a small town, I know how deeply a crime can shake a local community. And I know that what makes the headlines is rarely the full story. That's what Kylie Lowe explores on her show Dark Down East. She digs into cases from Maine and New England using original reporting, archival records, and conversations with the people who knew them best. Each episode takes you inside the communities these stories shaped, and the families who never stop searching for answers. Listen to Dark Down East wherever you get your podcasts.