Pod Insights Crime Junkie WANTED: Justice for Rhys Pocan & MMIW Part 2 About this episode In 2021, we set out to cover the case of Rhys Pocan, a 35-year-old Indigenous woman who was murdered in Wisconsin in the ‘80s. But while we were in the field, we uncovered a disturbing pattern of murders with similarities to Rhys’ that were just too blatant to ignore. So, we spent the next three years working with local and federal law enforcement to try and get to the bottom of it.
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Ashley Flowers? When you're out in nature, you learn to trust your instincts. You pay attention to the trail, your surroundings, and you stay alert to protect yourself from harm. But what if the biggest threat isn't the environment at all? On Park Predators, host Delia Diambra explores true crime cases that happen in national parks and remote wildernesses, the places we usually think of as safe and peaceful. Each episode reveals what happened and how much more there is beneath the surface. Listen to Park Predators now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. And this is part two of our look into Reese Pocan's story. So if you haven't heard the first part, please go back and listen because we're picking up
0:44 Ashley Flowers? right where we left off. When our reporter Emily realizes that this case goes way beyond Reese, and she discovers a disturbing pattern of dismemberments turning up all around Wisconsin. This episode will focus on two of those other victims and everything that we could find out about their cases from loved ones, detectives, tribal chiefs, coroners, and police reports. This is the story of Ray Tortellot and Julia Baez.
1:46 Ashley Flowers? By searching through newspaper archives and public records databases, our reporter Emily started finding more dismemberment victims in Wisconsin. In the years surrounding Reese's murder, at least 12 people, 11 of them women, were found whose heads or hands had been cut off during or after their murders. Now, a handful of these women are still unidentified, and most of the cases have never been solved. All in different jurisdictions? For the most part, yes. Which, we're thinking is maybe why no one has kind of looked at this holistically before. And like, when you see this, we haven't come across something like this. Like, who are you supposed to tell? Mm-hmm. I mean, we have the most badass group of women here at Audio Check doing the absolute lord's work.
2:30 Ashley Flowers? But like, try calling up the FBI and saying that you have a podcast and there might be a serial killer. Right. Honestly, it's gonna be a little easier because Crime Junkie actually is pretty well-known now. We have a lot of law enforcement fans. Like, thanks, guys. But other podcasts have made fools of themselves by calling the FBI, and they end up becoming the butt of like, internet jokes. So Emily tried reaching out to various FBI field offices in Wisconsin, but like, only ever got connected with a PIO, who then never even returned a call or an email. But, undeterred, she, you know, compiles everything that she's found into a document that she sends off to Detective Hatch, who trusts her. And in turn, he sends it to the FBI field office in Milwaukee.
3:15 Ashley Flowers? And here is what was in that document. "Our list begins in 1982, when the partial remains of a Jane Doe are found in Caledonia, which is in southeast Wisconsin. According to The Doe Project, they're still trying to identify her. But the woman was likely between 45 and 60 years old and had given birth at some point in her life. Then, in March of 1983, in Racine, which by the way is just 11 miles from Caledonia, a woman's arms, hands, and legs are found buried in a backyard. She's identified as 51-year-old Helen Sebastian."
3:52 Ashley Flowers? I have truly become obsessed with Helen's case, and I hope to bring you a whole episode on her one of these days. But today's not that day. So seven months after that, in October of 1983, dismembered partial remains of a man are found in Petrifying Springs Park in Kenosha County, a mere 15 minutes south of where Helen's dismembered body was found. This person is identified as 18-year-old Eric Hanson. He's our only male victim. Now, in May 1984, in Vernon County, which is western Wisconsin, a woman is found lying on the side of a gravel road a few miles outside of the town of Westby, with her hands cut off and major trauma to her head. She has still never been identified,
4:35 Ashley Flowers? but she was likely in her 60s and wore dentures. That's what they know about her. And her hands have still never been found. 30 minutes west of there, in February 1985, 24-year-old Terry Dalloway is found decapitated and on fire in a rural part of Vernon County. Now Terry's case was unsolved, but there actually was a break in the case in the fall of 2024, when charges were brought against a man named Michael Pop. Now, he pleaded not guilty in January of this year, actually. So like developments in her case are actively underway. Unclear if Pop is a suspect in any other cases. If this is like the outlier on all of this, I don't know, it's still actively unfolding. Then in spring of 1987, Indigenous woman Ray Tortelot's dismembered body
5:19 Ashley Flowers? is found on the Menominee Reservation in northern Wisconsin. Then in the summer of 1989, Weenow Reese vanishes from Milwaukee, and then her remains are found in Sheboygan County and then the Vernon Marsh area in Waukesha County. The next comes on Thanksgiving Day 1990. That's when the clothes and skeletal remains of a Jane Doe are found by deer hunters in Price County. Through dental records, they're identified as belonging to Susan Poopart, who is an Indigenous woman who vanished from a reservation in northern Wisconsin six months prior to being found. Now Suzie's story has a lot of twists and turns. Our reporters became really interested in it while researching these cases. So that's the one I'm actually going to be covering on the deck, which again is the other weekly podcast I host.
6:03 Ashley Flowers? So just keep an eye out for that one as well. Also in the fall of 1990, a Jane Doe's dismembered remains are found buried in a number of plastic bags near Black River Falls, Wisconsin. Her torso is buried in one bag, her limbs are buried in a separate bag, her head is never found, and this woman is later identified as Julia Baez. And I'm going to tell you about her case in this episode. But after her, in 1991, a woman's body is found with severed hands at the Goose Lake Wildlife Preserve in Dane County, Wisconsin. Her hands had been cut off and are later found in Walworth County. She's laid to rest as a Jane Doe, but later identified as Doris McLeod.
6:46 Ashley Flowers? A man convicted of sex trafficking has long been suspected in the teenager's murder. Then in October 2002, Boy Scouts find the skull and lower mandible of a Jane Doe in a ravine in St. Croix County, which is like, far western Wisconsin. And authorities have said that they likely belonged to a Native American woman between the ages of 35 and 50. And then lastly, in 2021, you heard that right, 2021, a skull is discovered in Oneida County, Wisconsin, which is found way up north, not far from Vilas County. The skull is missing a lower jawbone, and last I heard, investigators are working with anthropologists to determine who it could have belonged to.
7:29 Ashley Flowers? But a source told us that they thought that this person could have been Native American. And here's the wild part, so that is our list that we're working with. One of the women on that list, the one I said I'm going to be covering right toward a lot, she's Reese Pocan's cousin. What? Yeah, the connections are too bizarre to ignore. There really should have been a statewide task force or something, but because the cases were mostly in separate counties, no one was connecting the dots until now.
8:02 Ashley Flowers? So I need to step back from Reese's story and tell you about two of the other cases that we're going to dive into, starting with Reese's cousin, Ray Tortelot. So if you Google Ray, the first thing that pops up is this beautiful portrait of her when she was a Menominee tribal princess. From the people we spoke to, it sounded like Ray was super involved on the reservation. And the reservation is the last place she was ever seen, on October 14th, 1986. That's when Ray, who was 18 at the time, went to a small house party. At the time, the Green Bay Press Gazette reported that there were six other people at that party, all of whom Ray was friends with. So the story goes like this. Remember being a kid around the holidays?
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9:58 Ashley Flowers? My favorite time of the year for clothing is hands down fall. Sweaters, sweatshirts, I am all about layering. And when it comes to layering, no matter the outfit, you are probably gonna find me in two things: Crime Junkie merch and Quince. Last year, Brit and I both got the same oversized blazer in textured brown. It looks good with everything and on every one, which means it makes for the perfect gift. Actually, anything at Quince would make for a good gift because Quince has a lot more than clothing. I have multiple friends who have the Quince sling bag. Or if you're really trying to impress, go with one of their 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters. It'll look like you broke the bank, but really, they start at just 50 bucks. My personal style, I like pairing the black cashmere sweater with the black midi silk skirt, black tights and boots. I look super sharp and expensive.
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11:18 Ashley Flowers? Around midnight on October 14th, Rae says that she wants to leave the party and she gets a ride from one of the other partygoers. But when they get to her house, she doesn't want to go inside. So they kind of just drive around the reservation for a while and then they head back to the party. And then a little while later, Rae leaves the party again. But no one knows exactly when she ducked out that time or if she was with anyone when she did. I'm assuming this is all happening a little while after midnight, but honestly, the reports are like... They're really slim, not super detailed.
11:52 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
11:53 Ashley Flowers? So she walks out, and then poof, she is just gone. She never makes it home, and the next day, she's nowhere to be found. She gets reported missing to the tribal police, who act pretty quickly to put together search parties with canines. Like, they question everyone at the party that night. They contact other reservations and Indian centers. And they also searched the house where the party was, but they didn't find anything helpful. So this search for Ray goes on for two and a half weeks, but there is just no sign of her. And around this time, the tribal police chief tells the Green Bay Press Gazette, quote, "I've kind of given up a little bit, but I'll be out there looking again later on."
12:34 Speaker 01 Well, that's not exactly what you want to hear from an investigator.
12:37 Ashley Flowers? No, but like, to his credit, I mean, he actually contacts the FBI for assistance in the search. But they basically tell him that they can't conduct a full-scale investigation without evidence of a crime. They say there is, quote, "nothing to indicate to us that foul play was involved or that there was a federal problem," which is like, a frustrating response to me, especially considering, like, it is tribal land, and that is FBI jurisdiction.
13:04 Speaker 01 Right.
13:04 Ashley Flowers? At one point, detectives put a call-out in the papers, asking anyone who might have given Ray a ride during the early morning hours of October 15th to call them. No one does. Which, to me, makes that alleged ride that she got all the more suspicious.
13:21 Speaker 01 And for me, I always, like, can't quite wrap my head around the statement, "there's no evidence of foul play," because there isn't evidence of not foul play? Like, what does that mean?
13:30 Ashley Flowers? It's kind of your job to find the evidence?
13:32 Speaker 01 Exactly.
13:32 Ashley Flowers? And it's usually the families, right? Who are shouting that from the rooftops. And that's how it was for Ray's family. Ray's mom, Josephine, tells the local papers that Ray had gone off on her own before, but it was usually for like, three or four days, and they always knew where she was. Josephine says that Ray didn't seem unhappy or distressed before the party, and apparently she had planned to be in a friend's wedding several days after she went missing. Plus, right before Ray went missing, she had just become a mom. Her newborn daughter, Elise, was not even two months old. And listen, I know new moming is like the hardest thing in the world. I cannot imagine doing it at 18. But everyone who knew Ray felt it in their bones. She wouldn't have left her daughter.
14:16 Ashley Flowers? But as for detectives with no leads, they're like really scraping the barrel. They even connect with a Native American psychic from Chicago, who apparently tells them that Ray is either dead or in serious trouble. And the psychic actually describes an area where Ray's body might be, which detectives promptly searched to no avail.
14:35 Speaker 01 It's always so wild to me that psychics were just like regularly involved in investigations back then.
14:41 Ashley Flowers? And like, and why they write them off so much now.
14:43 Speaker 01 Yeah.
14:44 Ashley Flowers? And then actually, in particular, this psychic, their name's Robin Furman, and she used her clairvoyant abilities to help with a number of police investigations in Wisconsin and other states. She claimed that she could get impressions, basically, of missing people. And I'm not sure if it's because of Robin or because of something else that I don't know about. But around this time, investigators changed their tune, finally, to say that they do believe that Ray may be dead. But when asked whether or not foul play is involved in the case, they say, and I'm quoting here, "Yes and no." And before you ask, like, I have no idea what they meant by that. Investigators never really explained that cryptic answer. But they do tell reporters that they have several suspects,
15:29 Ashley Flowers? including the men who, like, Ray allegedly got a ride with, like, from the party, like, to her house and then back.
15:35 Speaker 01 Wait, detectives know who they are?
15:37 Ashley Flowers? So they do, but no names are ever released to the public. In fact, I've never seen names in criminal cases so closely guarded. The chief of the tribal police, Chief Keith Tortalot, wouldn't even tell us their names off the record.
15:52 Speaker 01 Hmm, quick question, is Tortalot a common name there?
15:55 Ashley Flowers? No. So here's the thing, so the chief is actually Ray's cousin. Would that also make him cousins with Reese? Yep. I think they were like first cousins once removed. So like this case is personal for him, I would say. Anyway, they believe they know who gave Ray a ride. Again, that first time, we're not talking about like, we don't know of anyone who like after the second time she left. From the party, back to the party. Right. But they clearly don't have proof of anything because months go by without any arrests or new information. It's just like this flood of rumors. But those rumors must hold a little truth to them. Or just the sheer amount of time that goes by with no word from Ray finally holds more weight.
16:39 Ashley Flowers? Cause four months in, investigators officially announced that Ray Tortalot's case has become a murder probe and that they're calling in the FBI. Now again, investigators won't say why they believe Ray was murdered. They say they have a suspect in mind, but just not enough evidence for an arrest. Again, names of the suspect or suspects never released. And then in April of 1987, two months later, detectives are finally able to prove their assumption. Ray was murdered. The announcement comes after a hunter stumbles across a bra strap while he's out walking in a remote area of the Menominee Indian Reservation, which leads him then to a headless female body.
17:23 Ashley Flowers? Pretty much every article at the time about the discovery mentions Ray in some way. So she is definitely on investigators' minds, but they don't want to say anything without proof. It's three days later when Josephine is able to identify the body as belonging to her daughter based on her clothing. And then a scientific identification comes through DNA testing, but that doesn't happen for 10 years. But at the time detectives trust Josephine's word. Now an autopsy is also done and the manner of death is ruled a homicide. But Chief Tortalot told us that for a number of reasons, mainly the state of the decomposition and the swampy area where the body was found and the missing head, the coroner wasn't able to determine a cause of death. And honestly, Britt, after this ruling,
18:08 Ashley Flowers? very little progress at all is made in Ray's case. And as much as we tried to dig into this case on our own, we ran into a lot of hurdles and a lot of roadblocks. For one, as Chief Tortolot told us, Ray's case file is very thin. Her investigation went cold almost immediately. And the work that has been done has been like extremely hush hush. Plus, people on the reservation are hesitant to talk about it, even to Elise, Ray's daughter.
18:38 Speaker 02 When I was growing up, I really didn't hear a lot of stuff like that. I would just hear like people just say like, "Oh, you look like your mom," or "Oh, your mom was a really nice dancer." And I mean, um, she is. I mean, they would just say that. They wouldn't talk about that. I think it seemed like it was, like, that whole part was shielded from me, honestly, from everybody. So it's really hard to talk about everybody on the reservation, I want to say. I think it really hit hard for everybody when that happened. I can see how much pain it is for them, honestly.
19:20 Speaker 02 Still, like, you can still see it to this day, like it happened yesterday. It was a very touchy subject, I guess I want to say, for everybody, honestly. Because even, like, to this day,
19:37 Speaker 02 where my mom was that night, I know where she was, but I know who was at the house. And if I ask, I asked one time, I said, I was like, "Can we talk about that? Can we talk about that night?" And then they actually were like, "No, I don't want to talk about it." And it's weird because it's me that's saying it, that's asking them.
20:05 Speaker 02 But I think the people who are at the house, I mean, those are her friends. You know what I mean? I think they carry a certain kind of guilt about that.
20:16 Speaker 02 I get that from the perspective, I guess. But it's something that has bothered me a lot. I mean, if you really looked at how close this house was, where she was, to where my grandparents live, it's literally a block away. It's crazy.
20:40 Ashley Flowers? Maybe because of a lack of cooperation, maybe for a zillion other reasons, the investigation stalls. Though, no excuse is an acceptable one to Elise and her family. They don't feel like investigators did enough at the time. And she's heard that there was lost evidence in the case, and she thinks that multiple agencies didn't coordinate well. It seemed to her to just be a mess. But they didn't just mess up a job the way that you or I might screw up, like a spreadsheet. This is her mom's literal life.
21:11 Speaker 01 Right.
21:12 Ashley Flowers? And you only get one shot at the early days of an investigation. And now that's lost. Investigators hoped back then was that if they could find Ray's head, maybe that would give them some physical evidence to work with. But they searched for five months without locating it.
21:29 Speaker 01 Were her hands removed like Reese's too?
21:31 Ashley Flowers? I don't know, because not all of Ray's remains were found. Police told us that it was only her lower half that was found, and that, and again, we know her head was never found.
21:41 Speaker 01 And Ray aside, is there any theory around why hands and heads were removed? I mean, to prevent identification, but could there be some other reason?
21:51 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, we kept asking detectives that very question during our reporting, and nobody could say for sure. I mean, they pointed out that, obviously, if a killer was like a seasoned criminal, like you're saying, they might do that for identification purposes. It's also possible that this is like, depending on, you know, who the killer was, what the relationship, the motive was, like, just plain revenge could be another factor. We also had some sources tell us that in certain cultures, it is a belief that someone can't rest in peace without being buried fully intact. So there could be several different factors at play. But to go back to Ray's case, we spoke with Chief Torta Lot and he said he still has suspects in Ray's case and no one has been excluded as a person of interest.
22:32 Ashley Flowers? Unfortunately, though, lots of people that he wanted to talk to have since passed away. And he hoped maybe for a deathbed confession in this case, but that's never happened. He says he did do some DNA testing, though. On what? I don't know on what, he wouldn't tell us. But I think the what is the wrong question because that's what I was getting to. There is a question that is far more interesting to ask.
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25:26 Ashley Flowers? So the who they did testing with is one that I was fascinated with. Because at one point, Chief Tortalot said that he had his DNA tested to prove that he wasn't involved.
25:38 Speaker 01 Like, the FBI asked him for it? Or he did that as part of his investigation?
25:43 Ashley Flowers? Not clear. Like, we tried to ask the FBI, but they never got back to us.
25:48 Speaker 01 And Chief Tortalot said no one has been ruled out as a person of interest.
25:53 Ashley Flowers? Correct. But he's also been working this case since the beginning. Like, he's the guy that's been heading it up from the tribal side for almost 30 years.
26:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:01 Ashley Flowers? So I feel like the FBI would have stepped in if he was a real person of interest. I don't know. And for all I know, there isn't even DNA evidence to compare stuff to. Like, that's something that they wouldn't share. It's all so muddy and complicated. And we were this close to getting an interview, like, with one of the detectives working on this case. Emily actually reached out to the detective, who is directly assigned. He agreed to talk. But then Chief Tortalot wouldn't authorize the interview. And since our coverage has been ongoing for years now, we even went back and asked again. And the detective said that he isn't allowed to do media interviews. I don't know if that's because of the shared jurisdiction with the FBI,
26:45 Ashley Flowers? or why everyone is so hush hush on Ray's case, why Chief Tortalot doesn't want him talking. But it seems like they don't want people asking questions, or like getting the word out, which in my opinion, just hurts their chances of actually receiving tips in her case.
27:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:02 Ashley Flowers? So at a certain point in her adulthood, Elise gets to the point where she feels like she needs to take matters into her own hands, conduct her own interviews with Ray's closest friends. And honestly, her primary goal isn't even to get her mom's murder solved. She wants to just learn more about her mom and keep her name alive through conversation.
27:23 Speaker 02 I mean, it sucks because I don't, I don't have memories. I think we have two pictures together. I think that's all we have. And it sucks because I don't know what she was like. I don't know. I hear a lot of stuff, but I wish I got to know that myself. Um, not knowing how her voice is, or I don't know. What was her favorite hobbies? What is she like doing? Like, because I don't know any of that stuff.
27:56 Speaker 01 Is that stuff her family can share with her? Didn't you mention something about Ray's mom?
28:00 Ashley Flowers? So yeah, Josephine, and Ray had a sister too, and that's who Elise lived with, and she had her dad. But Elise, she said she never felt like she could ask questions, because anytime Ray would come up, like it would just make everyone so upset. So she really grew up with her mom being this like taboo subject in her family. And of course, we know the extended family is also reckoning with the death of another relative.
28:24 Speaker 01 And were they close? Like, I know cousins can mean like very different things for different families.
28:29 Ashley Flowers? I know. We don't know exactly how close they were as cousins, but they definitely crossed paths on the Menominee Reservation where they grew up. Reese's daughter, Michelle, remembers seeing Ray perform at powwows, or like traditional Native American culture celebrations. She performed as a dancer. And I know that Reese knew about Ray's murder because of a tip that Hatch found buried in Reese's case file. A tip in Reese's case file about Ray, and it is chilling. The tip is from a woman named Geraldine, or Jerry, one of Reese's friends from church. And when interviewed by police in 1990, Geraldine reveals that just two months before Reese went missing,
29:13 Ashley Flowers? Reese confided something in her. And here is Detective Nathan Hatch.
29:19 Speaker 03 Reese had stated that she was scared and depressed. And when Geraldine questioned her, Reese indicated that Reese was in danger. Reese confided in Jerry that she was afraid that she would end up like her cousin Ray Torta Lot. Reese had commented something to the effect that, "He's going to cut off my head. He already killed my cousin." Reese had supposedly made this individual really mad at her, and he swore he was going to do this to her.
29:47 Ashley Flowers? He who? This is going to eat you alive. She told Jerry a name, but Jerry couldn't remember the name.
29:55 Speaker 01 You gotta be kidding me.
29:56 Ashley Flowers? I wish.
29:57 Speaker 01 She basically predicted exactly what was going to happen to her.
30:00 Ashley Flowers? I know. It seems almost impossible that investigators never connected the two murders, but they just never compared notes. In fact, we actually connected the investigators in both cases just this past year in October 2024. And that's when they finally sat down and had their first ever meeting.
30:19 Speaker 01 Wait, I don't understand. Reese told someone that she was afraid, that she was going to end up like her cousin, that someone was mad at her. Someone was going to cut off her head.
30:30 Ashley Flowers? Yes.
30:30 Speaker 01 A couple of months later, the exact thing happens, exactly like she predicted, and no one looked into it.
30:37 Ashley Flowers? Not until our reporting team came along.
30:40 Speaker 01 I wish these different counties would just talk to each other more.
30:44 Ashley Flowers? I know. So they're talking 2024, but like, no huge breakthroughs happened at this fall meeting. It did finally bring together tribal police, the county detectives, the feds, the state investigative agencies. They basically went down the POI list in both Ray and Reese's case to see if there were any overlaps. Unfortunately, no one knows who... Again, it like all comes back to like, what is the name that Reese told Jerry? Who was she afraid of? But nobody knows. I do know that what comes out of this big meeting, everyone coming together, is that investigators, detectives, all left that meeting with a new to-do list, full of leads that they wanted to follow up on that are still underway
31:28 Ashley Flowers? as of this recording of this episode. And the whole jurisdiction thing seems to be a major hurdle, though not just in Ray and Reese's cases, but in most of the Wisconsin dismemberment cases that Emily and I found. And I asked Detective Hatch about these two. Has there been any determination on whether any of them are connected or suspected to be?
31:51 Speaker 03 Fully, no. I've reached out to a handful of detectives from some of those cases and got a thumbnail of the scenario of what happened in those cases. I didn't hear anything that would lead me to believe that they are related, except for one that is really interesting to me.
32:14 Ashley Flowers? Can you talk about the one that you think there's potential for?
32:17 Speaker 03 Yeah, there is a woman named Julia Beas. She was, I believe, 36 years old. I believe she was Puerto Rican, and she was a mother of four. And she was ultimately abducted from Milwaukee. And in October of 90, her dismembered body was found in plastic bags, garbage bags, in a shallow grave by mushroom hunters in the village of Brockway, which is in Jackson County, directly across the river from Black River Falls. So I reached out to the Sensative Crimes Unit at Milwaukee Police Department, and I was able to get my hands on a report.
33:00 Speaker 03 And as I put Julia's address, it was only just a few blocks from Reese, and it was only a half a block from National Avenue in Reese's direct path.
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35:41 Ashley Flowers? So that brings us to our next case. Julia Baez, known to most people as Julie. She was last seen in June of 1990, about nine months after Reese's disappearance. Unfortunately, we don't know the exact date that Julie was last seen alive, because she isn't reported missing until nearly five months after the fact.
36:00 Speaker 01 Nobody noticed she was gone for five months?
36:03 Ashley Flowers? Well, because of different relationships and reportedly Julie's prior drug use, her two sons weren't living with her. One of them was with his dad. Another was in foster care. And then her 14-year-old daughter Marisol was with her father in New Jersey. And then Julie's 10-year-old daughter, also named Julie, was in foster care in Milwaukee. Plus, according to Julie's half-sister Luz, the one who eventually does report her missing, Julie lived this very transient lifestyle. So Luz tells police that Julie made a habit of going off on her own, and she would like return weeks later. I don't know where she would go. And actually, Julie's daughters don't remember even their mom doing that. But apparently Luz began to get concerned because nobody in the family had heard from Julie in a while.
36:48 Ashley Flowers? She wasn't with their mom in Puerto Rico, and her apartment manager hadn't seen her around at all there. In fact, according to police reports that we got through a records request, it had been so long since the apartment manager had seen Julie that he actually moved her stuff into storage. In Julie's missing persons report, Luz tells police that she last saw Julie June 18, 1990, at a tavern about five minutes from Julie's apartment. And that Julie left the bar after having an argument with her boyfriend, Pedro. So police looked at Pedro. It seems like they're at least initially suspicious of him, but on paper, it never led to anything official. So of course, we did some of our own digging. The day that Julie went missing, her daughter Marisol was with her grandma, Julie's mom.
37:33 Ashley Flowers? And Marisol remembers the last conversation she had with Julie.
37:38 Speaker 04 To me, she had said that she was going out with a friend. They were gonna go out dancing somewhere. And that the friend was picking her up. It was a girlfriend of hers that she was always with. And they went out and she just never came back. So she went out socially the night she disappeared. Which is sad because now I see it like, you know, that was the last time and I didn't even realize it was gonna be the last time.
38:08 Speaker 01 Do we know which is correct? Was she meeting a girlfriend or Pedro that last night?
38:14 Ashley Flowers? So based on interviews that we did and then the records that we got, I actually think both stories are true. So we learned that Julie actually went out with her BFF, Maricela, at a tavern where they were regulars. And a tavern where Pedro was known to play in a band. That's where Julie and her girlfriend supposedly went dancing that night. And the bar is no longer there, but for our Milwaukee crime junkies, it was at 15th and Mitchell. And it was possibly called the El Winaco Lounge. And reports state that Luz, again, this is Julie's sister. It's actually half-sister. It says that she was at the bar that night. So she tells police that Julie and Pedro got into an argument and that Julie left, never to be seen again.
38:52 Speaker 01 Was Pedro interviewed?
38:54 Ashley Flowers? I wish I knew. Like, again, the police reports we got through the open records request are like, super thin. I know police at least got a statement from Maricela, the friend that she was with that night. Obviously, they got a statement from Luz. But they didn't give us any copies of like, the friend's statements or any of the follow-up reports about Pedro, if there were any. And so that was basically it. Like, there were some routine follow-ups on Julie every few years to see if she had renewed her driver's license or if any of her kids had heard from her. But at some point, with no more viable leads, the case just went cold. And I'm talking like, completely cold. No other follow-up is done until 2012.
39:34 Speaker 01 And this whole time, she's just missing?
39:37 Ashley Flowers? Yeah, she's never found. But also, it doesn't seem like police were actually looking for her.
39:42 Speaker 01 Right.
39:42 Ashley Flowers? So literally, there's this note in the case file in August 2012. Mind you, this is 22 years after she goes missing. And I think it's so bananas, I need you to actually read it. It says, "On 4/4/12 at 2:40 PM, Squad 2131 went to the address of 825 South 23rd Street, Number 6, to conduct follow-up regarding the missing person, Julia Baez. At the address, we found that Apartment Number 6 does not exist. The building only houses Apartments 1 through 5. This was confirmed by the mailboxes and meters located in the rear of the building. There was also no Baez on the mailboxes."
40:25 Speaker 01 What?
40:25 Ashley Flowers? I know.
40:26 Speaker 01 It's 22 years later, and also, this apartment doesn't exist?
40:30 Ashley Flowers? 22 years later, but like, what does that mean? Does it actually mean anything? And like, of course, her name isn't on the mailbox 22 years later.
40:37 Speaker 01 Right.
40:38 Ashley Flowers? So, the thing I also don't know is like, there's nothing in the report to say why an officer was even sent there in the first place.
40:45 Speaker 01 Right, like, did they get a tip for some reason?
40:47 Ashley Flowers? Again, they can't possibly think they were going there to see Julie.
40:51 Speaker 01 The note says, "Follow-up." On what?
40:53 Ashley Flowers? I know, and like, it's possible, again, maybe someone all those years ago gave the wrong address for her, or someone made an error writing it down or something. I really don't know. Again, as for why 22 years later, I'm assuming, I have to think someone called in and asked for an update or made a tip. It just doesn't make sense to me. And I can't make sense of it with what they gave us.
41:14 Speaker 01 Yeah, basically, they learned nothing?
41:18 Ashley Flowers? Seems that way, yeah. And over the next 3 years, there is this like, annual follow-up with the case, but the reports are never more than a couple of sentences long. And in 2013, detectives call the number on file for Julie, but like, it's no longer in service? Duh.
41:33 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:33 Ashley Flowers? So, they check with the Department of Transportation to see if she updated her address. But it hadn't been updated since around the time she went missing. And then it's the same story in 2014. And then in this 2014 report, the detective writes that Julie was reported missing by Luz in 2010, which is just like, straight up wrong.
41:50 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:50 Ashley Flowers? But this detective at least tries to contact Luz unsuccessfully.
41:55 Speaker 01 I mean, did they try to contact her children? Or do more follow-up with Pedro? Or the friends she was out with?
42:01 Ashley Flowers? Not that I know of. And actually, we tried to reach Pedro and her friend too, but no luck. So, come 2014, Marisol, her daughter, decides she needs to put some pressure on investigators. Now that she's older and she can understand the situation a bit more, she goes back to the police station herself.
42:21 Speaker 04 Initially, when I went to the police department, they're like, "Hire a private investigator." And I was pretty upset at that. And, you know, like, "To do your job," you know? Because it's not like we can afford to hire anyone.
42:36 Speaker 04 I told them, "I know my mom is a Jane Doe somewhere." I know my mom would not just come back and not see us or, you know, her mom. So he finally listened, and that's when he collected DNA.
42:50 Ashley Flowers? And what do you know? Eight months later, in July of 2015, detectives call Marisol and her sister Julie back down to the station. Their DNA had been a match to a Jane Doe's remains. What Jane Doe? Where, where, and when? So as it turns out, on October 10, 1990, so this is four months after Julie disappeared, a man in Black River Falls, a city three hours west of Milwaukee, was out foraging for mushrooms when he stumbled upon a garbage bag containing a human arm and leg. And then when police descend on this area and search it, they find more bags of dismembered remains nearby in a shallow grave.
43:34 Ashley Flowers? And it looks like it had gotten partially dug up by animals. Now, according to the Jackson County Sheriff, quoted in the La Crosse Tribune at the time, "Most of the parts were bones, but some still contained some flesh." And after a thorough search of the area, officials told the papers that the only body part that they could not find was a head. And according to Marisol, this discovery site was near a reservation as well, just like in Ray's case. And if Black River Falls sounds familiar, remember Larry, Reese Pocan's violent ex-boyfriend? Yeah, remember, he now lives in Black River Falls.
44:16 Ashley Flowers? But at the time, no one makes the potential connections. Police in Milwaukee and Jackson County, where Black River Falls is, aren't even thinking about Ray Tortola or Reese Pocan. They're telling local news outlets that the body was likely dumped by someone traveling through the region because this spot is a halfway point between the Twin Cities and Milwaukee. And they say, quote, "People feel they're in a remote area." Plus, there were no missing people in their county. And I almost couldn't believe this when I read it, but the Jackson County sheriff said, quote, "Jackson County is not the only place anything like this has happened. There are lots of them.
44:56 Ashley Flowers? There have been bodies found in Vernon, La Crosse, Marathon, and Juneau Counties all over the state. You have heads without bodies, bodies without heads, bodies without hands. Jackson County is not by itself in any way."
45:10 Speaker 01 Is this his way of telling the public not to panic? Or is he, like, trying to connect things?
45:17 Ashley Flowers? Listen, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet that the sheriff only said this to somehow make the situation seem less like a big deal. Like, oh, don't worry, residents, there is nothing wrong with our county. This dismemberment stuff is happening everywhere.
45:30 Speaker 01 Oh, I feel way better now.
45:32 Ashley Flowers? I know. And now, again, when he's making this statement, like, the remains are still unidentified. But I'm kind of shocked that it took so long if they were looking for missing women far and wide. Now, the timing on all of this gets a little unbelievable because they only ended up doing DNA testing on this Doe like months before Marisol gets Milwaukee PD to take her DNA, which is two decades later. And what's also wild is that in all that time, Marisol had been looking for her mom, and she told us that she had seen that Jane Doe's name is Paige a ton.
46:09 Speaker 04 It's so crazy because I had gone into the Jane Doe Network year after year, and I had seen the Jane Doe. From Black River Falls. And I would always say, no. Age would say like from 20 to 30. My mom was 36. Caucasian. Even though my mom was very like complected. She was Hispanic. And it also said she had a tattoo of a mushroom. And I was like, my mom didn't have a tattoo. Come to find out, the tattoo of the mushroom was the imprint of the the remains on a mushroom field because that's where she was found. So it had imprinted, I guess, on the skin as she decomposed. And every year I would see it and I'd just keep going like, no, that's not her.
46:56 Ashley Flowers? For Marisol and little Julie, just knowing where their mom was provided a huge relief. Julie had gone her whole life thinking that her mom had just abandoned them. As a kid, she was in and out of 12 different foster homes until she was finally adopted.
47:13 Speaker 05 To find out that she did not abandon me and that she wanted me is a big part of my life because I have a child now. And not having to tell my child that, you know, her grandmother didn't care about me because her grandmother did care about me.
47:30 Speaker 04 I've lived my life with an empty piece of me and it's because she's gone, you know. She was very caring, very sweet, very trusting. So I only have memories of her, you know, those moments, the hugs, you know, that. So, and she was just always, she was sweet. She was just, you know, a good mom. You know, your mom loves you a certain way. There's nobody in the world that's gonna love you like your mom. And just missing that kind of love.
48:04 Ashley Flowers? Finally, with a name for their Jane Doe, the Jackson County Sheriff tells the leader telegram that they're gonna get to the bottom of who killed her. That before it was hard because they didn't have the name of their victim, didn't have a starting point. But all that was gonna change, starting now. Well, that was in July of 2015. Unfortunately, from what I can tell, no further breaks ever come in the case. The only reason we know the little we do is from like an incident report. We also asked for interviews with detectives who like have her case or jurisdiction. They denied our request. Emily did speak on background to a law enforcement source who worked on the case, but that source doesn't work for the Jackson County Sheriff's Office anymore. So like, we didn't get a ton.
48:49 Ashley Flowers? And it doesn't seem like they ever even considered that their dismemberment case could be connected to any others because Marisol and Julie, by the way, didn't even know about Reese Pocan or Ray Tortolot's cases until we brought them up in our interview.
49:06 Speaker 04 She disappeared nine months before my mom, in Milwaukee, so close. Wow, I had no idea the fact that also a mother, also in the same area. They were getting away with murder. Just the fact that there's so many, there's so many out here and so many families too that like ours, just, you know, we don't know. We just would have to sit here and wonder and hope.
49:33 Ashley Flowers? It's really only Detective Hatch in Sheboygan County who's trying to shed light on all the similarities between these cases.
49:42 Speaker 03 I reached out to the Jackson County Sheriff's Department and found out that there was evidence, physical evidence, they had. There's nobody actively working on the case, but there's a detective that was assigned that case. And that my request to them was to see if there was evidence that had been sent or not sent, and then hopefully they would send all that evidence to a crime laboratory to maybe identify any kind of DNA or evidence related to a suspect.
50:14 Ashley Flowers? Hatch is also working with Jackson County authorities to see if anyone on Reese Pocan's suspect list matches anyone in Julia Baez's case file. And he presented to the FBI's Cold Case Homicide Task Force about all of these Wisconsin dismemberment cases, some of which were not even on their radar. So these are all cases I wish I had more to bring you on, but we felt like the best thing we could do at this point is to just like get everything we do have out there for people to hear because maybe someone out there knows something about these Wisconsin women and our one man. Maybe someone is in law enforcement and they have a similar case that we don't even know about from that time period. And if nothing else, maybe everyone can just come together and let Charlie and Michelle
50:58 Ashley Flowers? and Elise and Marisol and Julie all know that their mothers haven't been forgotten, that for this one moment, millions of people across the world are thinking about their moms. I believe there's so much power in the collective human consciousness. You might call it prayer, whatever we call it, however we direct our intentions to a singular focus of peace and justice, I do believe it's powerful. Here's Reese's daughter, Charlie.
51:26 Speaker 06 Obviously, I'd like them to find who did it and finally have that closure. It's nice that we've found her remains and we know that she's not coming back now. A different piece of you is always missing when you don't know who did this, why they did it, where they are, who they are, that kind of thing. So it'd be really nice to have that type of closure, for sure.
51:51 Ashley Flowers? And here's Julia's daughter, Julie.
51:53 Speaker 05 I just want justice. I think after we find who did this to her, I'll be able to feel relieved because my mom didn't deserve this. She didn't.
52:09 Speaker 05 Why did you do it?
52:11 Ashley Flowers? Ray's daughter, Elise.
52:14 Speaker 02 It's not just my mom. It's somebody's sister, somebody's friend, it's somebody's daughter. It's my son's grandma, you know what I mean? It's something that has hurt our family. And I don't know what that looks like for us to get over that. I don't, I don't know what that is for all of us, honestly. Maybe one day we'll get justice. But at the same time, me talking about it, doing this and helping other families, that's my own personal justice. Even if my mom's case doesn't get solved, at least I know that I'm kind of spreading awareness for other families that are in the situation.
52:59 Speaker 02 And helping them, and hopefully one day that they'll do the same.
53:06 Ashley Flowers? This idea of speaking up, of bringing attention to the cases of women of color, was echoed by Ray, Julia, and Reese's daughters. Here's Reese's other daughter, Michelle.
53:19 Speaker 07 Why does it have to be our own are the only ones that keep that flame going? Why can't somebody else help us? Because I know a lot of our people, they get tired too. And that's the sad thing about it. I'm hoping that when somebody hears, they listen and they help, you know, in any which way that they can. If it's news people, get us out there too. Let our people be seen, you know? Get the law enforcement out there as hard as they do for any but any other race, you know, Caucasians especially, them are the main ones. And you hear about them all over the news, you know, ABC, NBC, CBS, on the night news and everything, you know, CNN.
54:04 Speaker 07 And it's like, well, what about ours? Where do we, where do we fit in all this? And if something were to happen, you see something, say something. If you see something ain't right, try to help them. Because some women, we, we don't say anything. That's the thing. And I know a lot of us think we're strong, but we're, we can only be strong so much.
54:34 Ashley Flowers? Crime Junkies, please help us get justice for Reese, Ray, and Julia, and all of the Wisconsin dismemberment victims. From the get, our hope was to tell all of these stories. 12 total. That's still our hope, but there's just not enough information out there. We've tried getting interviews with detectives in all of the cases. We've filed records requests with little success, but let's make sure that the conversation doesn't end here. I'm going to put the list of cases that we want more information on in the description for this episode and on our website. If you have any information about any or all of the cases I've talked about last week
55:14 Ashley Flowers? and this week, in both Part 1 and 2 of these episodes, or if you know anything about the pattern of dismemberments in Wisconsin, please reach out to Detective Nathan Hatch at the Sheboygan County Sheriff's Office. You can reach him at his office line, 920-459-3135, or at his email, [email protected] . And you can also message us. If you know something, or if you're a loved one of one of the victims, drop us a line. We're counting on you to help us tell these long-overlooked stories and finally get some answers for the victims and their families.
56:08 Ashley Flowers? You can find all the source material for this podcast on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com.
56:13 Speaker 01 You can follow us on Instagram, at Crime Junkie Podcast.
56:16 Ashley Flowers? We'll be back next week with a brand-new episode, but stick around, we've got some good for you.
56:44 Ashley Flowers? All right, after all of that, I'm ready for some good. What did you get for us? What did you, deep in the Crime Junkie inbox, what did you find?
56:50 Speaker 01 Okay, this month's submission is actually a sort of response to a story that we featured on the Good segment before.
56:57 Ashley Flowers? Ooh, full circle.
56:58 Speaker 01 Yeah, I don't know if you remember, but back in September 2023, we read a letter about the Freedom Canine Project, which is an Indianapolis organization specializing in training service dogs for victims of sexual violence and people with PTSD. Well, some pretty cool things have been happening over there, and this is a submission from Lydia. Dear Ashley, Britt, and team, I'm not sure if you remember us, but you featured my nonprofit organization, Survivor's Companion, then going by the name Freedom Canine Project, on a Good segment a little over a year ago. And wow, what a freaking impact you made. Not only did your donation make a gigantic difference in what we were able to accomplish this year,
57:40 Speaker 01 but your Crime Junkies showed up and showed us so much love in donations, follows, volunteering, et cetera. They really came through and helped us grow in ways I never could have expected. We are so grateful and hope you know what an impact you've made. Lydia, CEO and Head Trainer.
58:04 Ashley Flowers? Thank you, you guys.
58:05 Speaker 01 That is like a good for you guys. Like, our listeners went out and donated, volunteered for this organization just by hearing some good. The good continues.
58:15 Ashley Flowers? I love it.
58:18 Ashley Flowers? Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?
58:28 Speaker 01 Growing up in a small town, I know how deeply a crime can shake a local community. And I know that what makes the headlines is rarely the full story. That's what Kylie Lowe explores on her show Dark Down East. She digs into cases from Maine and New England using original reporting, archival records, and conversations with the people who knew them best. Each episode takes you inside the communities these stories shaped, and the families who never stop searching for answers. Listen to Dark Down East wherever you get your podcasts.
58:56 Speaker 08 When the nights grow longer, the shadows start to stir. And that can only mean one thing. Full Body Chills is back. This season, step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker, every stranger carries a secret, and nothing is ever quite what it seems. Each story takes you somewhere new, but be careful. You never know what might follow you home. So gather around, listen close, and stream Full Body Chills wherever you get your podcasts.
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