Ep. 131 | Interview With Attempted Murder Survivor Kenna Renee Harper

I sit down with Kenna Renee Harper to hear her incredible story of survival after her own mother tried to take her life. Kenna shares what she endured, how she rebuilt her life, and how she’s using her story to create purpose today. FIND KENNA ON: Instagram: @kennareneeharper TikTok: @kennareneeharper YouTube: kennareneeharperofficial Facebook: kennareneeharper Website: https://unboundlegacyco.com "I’d especially love to highlight Unbound Legacy Co. It is an apparel company I created that merges purpose with apparel and promotes the idea of wearing your testimony and embracing the strength it takes to do so. Each design is created thoughtfully to promote hope for better days, the courage to find joy, and to spark conversations around the stories and testimonies we carry. My first collection is currently live in limited quantities, with more collections planned for the future. A portion of the proceeds also goes toward supporting children who have experienced adverse childhood experiences, like I did, and helping support their road ahead." 🤍 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:27Speaker 02

  Today's guest has a story that's hard to hear and even harder to have lived. As a child, Kenna Rene Harper survived something no child should ever have to face at the hands of her own mother. And that's where her story starts, but it isn't where it ends. Because since then, Kenna has spent years doing the work to get past that, and she's been able to turn it into something. She's the founder of Unbound Legacy Co., an apparel company built on a simple idea: where your testimony. And every design is made to spark hope and to remind people there's courage in finding joy and to open up conversations about the stories we all carry. Stories like the one she's about to tell.

• 2:11Speaker 02

  And a portion of every sale goes to support children who've been through adverse childhood experiences, just like she did. So if you'd like to support her and her mission, I will make sure to put all of those links down in the description, along with her socials as well. But I came across Kenna's story while scrolling on social media, and I got the opportunity to speak with her about it at length. And our conversation is very raw and open. And I just want to thank Kenna for taking the time to come out to me to tell you guys her story. So without further ado, let's meet Kenna.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  My name is Kenna Rene Harper, and you can find me pretty much on all social medias under that, Kenna Rene Harper. Except for on YouTube, it's official, Kenna Rene Harper Official. And yeah, I'm a survivor and I am an advocate, and I really believe in sharing not only my survivor story, but the stories that I feel like so many other people kind of hold to themselves because they're scared or they're nervous or they're afraid of speaking the truth. And so I feel like that's why I started sharing my story and trying to carry that boldness and that courage as a survivor myself and so that I could share that hope with other survivors, too.

• 3:28Speaker 02

  And you originally shared your story on TikTok?

• 3:31Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. So originally, a couple of years ago, I shared my story for the very first time. It was like some trend, some Suzy Stitch. And I shared it super quick and it kind of blew up. And then I kind of put a pause on it because I wasn't really in a place where I feel like I was still processing it. And then, being a new mom, this past year I had my daughter, and it was the first time that I felt like I saw my story in its entirety, being a mom myself. And so I really wanted to start sharing again. So I started sharing on TikTok and then Instagram and Facebook, and it just kind of grew from there.

• 4:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, the story is about how your mom attempted to kill you, which is horrible.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:19Speaker 02

  And I mean, I think everybody is so interested in that story because it's, there's a lot of why and how and like, how does it lead to that? And I think, and I'll let you explain it, but there's a lot of addiction involved and there's, is there mental illness involved, I'm assuming?

• 4:39Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:40Speaker 02

  So I'd really love to start with your childhood. Like, what was that like, growing up?

• 4:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I have a blended family. I, my, my parents met and they got married super fast. They were pregnant before they were even married. And my dad had kids with a previous marriage, and my mom had kids with a previous partner. And then they met each other, and then they had me really fast. So it was like this big blended family. And I think my parents were divorced within a year of them being married. So I've always said that I kind of was born into a life of chaos already. Like, it was just kind of part of me and my story. And they lived in different states. And so I went back and forth between both of my parents.

• 5:28Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 5:29Speaker 03

  From what I understand, it was every six weeks. I was on a plane back and forth between states, between Idaho and Washington or wherever my mom lived at the time. She moved around a ton. And so that was kind of how my childhood began. And for the first few years, like, my mom was my best friend. She did everything for us. She said she always wanted to have a daughter. And so I was actually supposed to be a boy until I was born. In the birthing center, they were like, wait, it's a girl. And they're like, wait a sec, no, it's not. It's supposed to be a boy. Like, what, what's going on? She said that was always her prayer. Her dream come true was to have a daughter. And so I think that that really carried out in the way that she parented me.

• 6:13Speaker 03

  And I felt like for the first few years, probably six years of my life, I was, I was spoiled. I got to do any activity that I wanted to do. And I got to be involved in dance, in the Portland Ballet, and all of these different things. She just wanted me, if I was interested in it, she wanted me to try it. She was the director of a kinder care, which is basically like a childcare center. And I'm not sure if she even graduated high school, but she always was able to get these really great jobs and provide for us because she was a single mom. And all of that felt really normal. It didn't feel dysfunctional at the time. Like, it just felt like everything that I'd ever known.

• 6:57Speaker 03

  And it was just me and my mom and my brother. And we just moved around a ton. And I went and visited my dad. But my dad's house kind of felt more like a vacation because my mom had primary custody. It wasn't like, you know, you're week on, week off. You have shared time. It was like, oh, okay, when you go to dad's house, it's like two weeks in the summertime. And then, you know, when I start school, I could only go there every other holiday.

• 7:25Speaker 02

  Right. You're at mom's house for most of the time?

• 7:27Speaker 03

  I'm at mom's house a majority of the time. She's primary, she's making all the decisions, all the medical, everything. And then dad's house is just kind of like, I get to go to dad's house. I play for a week with my brothers and it's so fun. And then I come back home and I'm, you know, doing chores back to reality.

• 7:42Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  I didn't even feel like at my dad's house that I had like a true, like, landing space. You know, like a true, I, I shared a room with my stepsister at the time, and it all felt very temporary. So mom's house was definitely like the stable house.

• 7:57Speaker 02

  That was your space. It was your safe space.

• 7:59Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly. Yep, yeah. So, yeah, that was basically my childhood. We, she always moved around a ton. So we were back and forth between Washington and Oregon. And I don't think we ever stayed in a house longer than a year. Like, I think I lived in 22 different houses before I was 18.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Holy crap.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  So I was always on the move. But that, again, at the time, just felt normal. I thought that everyone did that. I didn't realize that there were people who were born who lived in the same house until they were 18.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 8:32Speaker 03

  So, yeah, so we, we moved around a ton. And then my sister was born in 2000.

• 8:43Speaker 03

  Four, she was born in two thousand four, and we are about seven and a half years apart. And that's when I really started to notice a shift in my mom. She started becoming less of a parent and someone who was looking after me and making sure that things were getting done and that I was following the rules and really being that parent figure. She really switched from that to demanding a lot of us in the home. So and and my brother, he's also seven and a half years older than me.

• 9:13Speaker 02

  Okay, so there's seven, seven year

• 9:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, on my mom's side, I'm a middle child. And so it's like my brother was taking care of me. And then once my sister was born, I was taking care of my sister. So we were really, really parentified and

• 9:32Speaker 03

  once my sister was born, I don't know if it was postpartum, I don't know if there was a shift there. Um, but that's when I really, really, and I don't know if it's because also I was older, like I was starting to realize things, even though a child when they're in first, second, third grade shouldn't know some of the things that I knew. But I think I just started to become more aware. I started to really be parentified. And I started to understand that like something wasn't right about my mom. She wasn't my, the mom that I had always known. But I didn't know a name for that. I didn't know that it was addiction. I didn't know that it was mental health issues. I didn't know that

• 10:16Speaker 03

  there were some really tough demons that she was battling. I just knew my mom was sick. And that was kind of the rhetoric around everything, like mommy's sick, she needs to get better. Whenever I would ask questions like, well, why do you stay in bed all the time? Why are you not doing well? Why can't you get up and do the normal things that we always do? It was, oh, mommy's sick and she has to go to the doctor to feel better.

• 10:44Speaker 03

  I had no idea that mommy was sick because she has an addiction issue. And she has, you know, these pills that I'm getting up and taking out of the pill bottle and giving to her every day. They're not medication that

• 10:58Speaker 02

  she needs.

• 10:59Speaker 03

  She need, yes, yeah, yeah. I think that my younger self just thought that when you go to the doctor and they give you medicine, they're doing it because you're sick, like

• 11:11Speaker 03

  yeah, you have something wrong with you. And once you take the medicine, you feel better, just like a sore throat or strep throat or whatever. And that is what I thought I was, you know, helping her with or that she was battling with. And I didn't understand that the panic attacks that she would have to go to the ER for, that these were almost like episodes or scenes in order to get more medication.

• 11:36Speaker 02

  And the kinds of pills that she was on, like, was it um, like pain medication then?

• 11:42Speaker 03

  So it was a mix of benzodiazepines, um, lorazepam, hydrocodone, um, trazodone, OxyContin. So there was pain medication and benzos um, to treat like anxiety. Um, but she was using them both at the same time.

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I'm assuming since you're you're at that age, so you're about seven, eight at this point when you're, when she's starting to get into or that you've noticed.

• 12:11Speaker 03

  Yep, around eight years old, yeah.

• 12:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so you're at an age where she can justify it to you in whatever way she wants, because you're a little kid, you don't know any better. And then your brother's at an age where he's probably, you know, checked out doing whatever he's doing. And then you have a baby. Baby sister. So it's, it's kind of all on you at that point. Did you feel that? Or were you just like, I'm just helping mom? Like, were you, did you feel like she was using you at that point? Um, or was it more just?

• 12:41Speaker 03

  I think just children are sponges. And at that point, I was just a sponge to my environment. And I just had to adapt in any way I knew how. And so that just all felt really normal to me. I just thought, okay, yeah, mom is shifting. She's not doing so well. So as a family, we just take care of each other. And so I kind of like came into this role, not realizing it was parentification, not realizing that I had to kind of come up with these coping skills in order to survive that environment. Um, I just thought that that was normal. And so of course I was gonna take care of my baby sister. And at that point, like, I loved it. It was almost like, you know, like, oh, this is like my real life baby doll, you know, like

• 13:22Speaker 03

  Yes, like I just came into this role of like, yeah, of course, like I'll, you know, change her diapers and I'll get her when she wakes up from a nap and I'll make sure I'll play with her. And it's so funny because now that I have a bonus son and a, a daughter of my own, and they have a five year age gap, I see that so much of that, like children just kind of take on, like they just wanna help. They just wanna be a part of it. But now seeing it like that that was fully my responsibility, not just something that was fun to do, not just something that I, you know, was just helpful. Um, it just really makes me realize how unhealthy that that was that I was expected to do that. And also for my brother as well. I mean, he was in his teenage years and he was having to

• 14:07Speaker 03

  you know, cook for us and make sure that if I wasn't getting to school, that he was the one to take me to school before he went to school. Yeah, and he, he definitely took a lot of stuff on. I mean, he was a teenage boy too, so he had a lot going on. But he was very, very aware of what was going on in our house. And I don't know to what extent. Um, but he definitely had to take on those things as well.

• 14:29Speaker 02

  Yeah. And did your dad know anything about this at that point?

• 14:33Speaker 03

  I have no idea. He really knew the extent of what was going on, um, because he also battled with addiction himself. And so I think being in a different state and kind of being in his own world, he wasn't able to one be the parent that I needed to like step in and notice those things. Um, because he was also struggling himself. And and how do you also notice those things when you're a state away and you're not seeing your child all the time? And then, you know, the, the conversations and and just how those visits were. It's not like I was really reflecting on things that were happening at home.

• 15:14Speaker 03

  So I think that that was, that was hard. And when, when you're in the depths of addiction, I don't think you really even see.

• 15:21Speaker 02

  No, you're in your own world. You have blinders on. And that's the most important thing. I know people in my immediate family have dealt with that as well. And it is, it's, it it's angering for you to watch it, but it's, there's also sympathy because it's like, they they're sick. They are sick. That doesn't mean their actions are justified. But there's some understanding in that way, which I'm assuming that year. I, I don't wanna assume anything you like can see it from that way, but it's just, it it's a very difficult relationship to have. Especially when you're only seven years old at that point. And so with what happened, where were you? You were ten years old?

• 16:03Speaker 02

  That happened? And were you with your dad or with your mom? Like, how did it, how did that come to be?

• 16:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, so leading up to the event, I I felt like I could tell that my mom was really struggling in those weeks leading up to what had happened to me. Um, I was in like this church performance and stuff, so I was gone a lot. My, one of my best friends, her mom really like took over and would take me to those rehearsals and would um, step in. I actually ended up staying with them for like two weeks. My mom like went off to a different state. And at the time, I thought it was for a job. I think it was later found out that she was kind of trying to seek some sort of help. Um, but then when she came back, nothing had really changed, nothing had really shifted

• 16:54Speaker 03

  other than her still being sick. And this particular year, it was my dad's year to have me for Christmas. And so how that split was basically like in two week blocks. So like either the first week of Christmas break or the second week, you go with mom and then you go with dad. And so that first block was with my dad. So I flew and went to my dad's house in Idaho. And then my parent or and then my siblings stayed with their dad because we all have different dads. I think that's a lot of confusion that people have, like, okay, well, you have all these siblings and where were all the other kids and what was going on?

• 17:31Speaker 02

  Family like that, so I totally get it. Like an ex stepmom, two dads. I'm on the same page. We split Christmas. I flew to a different pro, I'm from Canada, so I flew, so I get it.

• 17:44Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. So they're with their dads, I go to my dad and um, I celebrate Christmas, just like any other fourth grader. You know, I'm just excited. I I'm excited for Santa. I'm excited for what's, you know, what's to come. And also when you're a child of divorced parents, like you just try to make the most of it. So you're like, okay, I get two Christmases. Like, this is so cool. You know, like double the presents, bring it on. So I spend Christmas with my dad and we get a trip to Disneyland, which is like every child's like Super Bowl. Absolutely, this is what I've dreamed about. And so I'm so excited and I want to call up my mom and tell her, obviously, like the good news, she's my best friend.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  I felt like I was really, anything that ever happened in my life, I wanted to share with my mom and I felt like kind of an extension of her. At the time, I didn't know that that was very unhealthy, but it was just something that like, everything I wanted to do, everything that I experienced, it was, I wanted to do it with my mom. So I call her up, I get to tell her and she's not as enthused as I expected her to be. It was almost like she was put off. And I learned at a really young age to read emotions. So I gauged that she was unhappy about it and that something was off. And so then it made me kind of feel that way. Which, looking back now, I'm like, that's so sad. Like, what a,

• 19:09Speaker 03

  what a way to like rob your children of joy, just because of your own emotions and your own feelings and resentment. Um, whether that be towards my dad or towards the fact that she couldn't do that for us, or whatever that was that she was carrying at the time, I just, I think that all of those things should be put aside for your kids, but I obviously felt that emotional shift from her. And so I'm like, okay, well, I think I'm excited to see you, like, you know, trying to kind of like manage her emotions. And she's like, yeah, well, we'll see if you, if you even go. So I'm like, okay. Like, I hope so, you know, so I just try to like divert and say, okay, I'll see you. Cause I was planning on

• 19:51Speaker 03

  flying out later that day to go and see, um, go back home and, and see her. And then we were gonna celebrate Christmas with my brother and sister the following day. So we get off the phone and actually something that I kind of forget about the story is that she had asked my dad if I wanted to stay an extra day, which

• 20:15Speaker 03

  in hindsight, then my like siblings would have been home. Um, and it would have changed our plan. I don't know if that would have changed anything else, but it was just strange because to change a flight last minute is just not easy to do, especially around the holidays. Like it's just, it's expensive. It causes a lot of confusion for me, obviously as the kid, like you just kind of want to stick to what is set in stone, have as much routine as you possibly can. So my dad was like, no, we're not changing it. Like you're going on the flight and you're going home. So that was that. I got on a flight and I went back to see my mom. It was kind of a lateish flight. So I think we got in about like six or seven.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  Um, and then because we lived in a little small town in Port Angeles in Washington, it's two and a half hours away from any airport. So when you fly in, you have to make that drive. So it makes for a really long travel day. So I got in, I'm really excited to see her. Um, and then we make our way back home. And at that point, like I could tell that she was doing fine, like nothing really. I don't know. People ask like, did you see any signs? Like, was she acting abnormal? Like she wasn't intoxicated. She didn't seem to be on any medication. I could usually tell when my mom was at her lows or when she was,

• 21:43Speaker 03

  you know, she had her highs and she had her lows. And then when she was on her medication, she was very lethargic. She was out of it. All of those things. She was acting fairly normal.

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• 22:23Speaker 03

  She was asking me definitely a lot of questions about my visit, kind of trying to gauge how my experiences were with my stepmom and what the household was like and things like that, which she often did. Again, not really a red flag. Like she was one of those parents who was very

• 22:43Speaker 03

  involved in parental and alienation. Is that, is that the right?

• 22:47Speaker 02

  I think so. Yeah. Trying to use your child as a vessel for information for, from the other parent and to get messages from you to the other parent.

• 22:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  I understand that.

• 23:00Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:01Speaker 02

  Not to that degree.

• 23:02Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  You know, I feel like it's probably common and a lot of people can relate to that. Um, in terms of people with separated families.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 23:10Speaker 02

  It's just like, oh, well, why did they do that? And why, why are they doing that? Or you were doing, it's just, it's so manipulative and a child shouldn't be used in that way. But I think that's the perfect, yeah, parental alienation.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. And I had no idea, obviously at the time that that's what was going on, but I think in high conflict co-parenting situations, that is often apparent, like you said, because they're fishing for information. They want to know. I think that there's like this,

• 23:37Speaker 03

  there's this idea that the child owes you some type of loyalty or that parent, some type of loyalty. And so that was often what it was is like, I felt super loyal to my mom to where I felt like if I had too much fun at dad's house, she would be upset. Or if I, you know, if I liked my stepmom in any capacity, she would be upset and that would be disloyal to her. And so this feeding for information was very normal, but it was very unhealthy. And so I remember making a comment about like, oh yeah, my stepmom said like, you're crazy, like trying to change the flight the day before, whatever, which, you know, hindsight, like that is wild.

• 24:23Speaker 03

  That is wild. Like I might have made a comment like that too. But obviously that made her very upset and I felt this sense of, I have to be extremely honest at all times. And as a kid, like you're, that's what you're taught, be completely honest with your parents, tell them everything. And so I told her that and I could tell she was very unsettled by that. Um, but other than that, like the ride back was fairly normal, you know, we had our little debrief. I played some games to keep me company and like, keep the, the drive going by and, and then I started to develop a toothache pretty bad. And so I just told her like, oh, mom, like I'm really in a lot of pain. And she's like, oh, don't worry, we'll get you medicine when

• 25:07Speaker 03

  we get back to the house. I'm like, okay, okay. Just try to rest, basically try to just make the time pass as quickly as you can and then we'll be fine. So I think at that point, like I took a little nap and I remember laying my head on the center console and waking up and being at our house in Port Angeles. And when we got there, it was pretty dark. It was nighttime at this point. We were basically like, let's get our pajamas on and let's just go to bed. So we go inside and I put my suitcase down and I show her my brand new pajamas that I got for Christmas. And I'm just like, so excited that like innocence of a child, like I'm back home. Also I co-slept with my mom up until this point and

• 25:52Speaker 03

  I, again, I think it just kind of shows the level of good management. And like, I'm not against like a co-sleep at all, you know, like I think it's beautiful and wonderful. And I love when my daughter sleeps with me, but up until you're ten, never sleeping in your own bed, like there's a level of like, okay, there's really no separation. Like there's really.

• 26:14Speaker 02

  Just dependency on her and you.

• 26:17Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  So it's just like, it's in measurement.

• 26:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 26:19Speaker 02

  In its own way.

• 26:20Speaker 03

  Total dependency. And so it was our bed, not my mom's bed in my room upstairs. Like, so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get in bed. And she's like, okay, you, you get ready for, for bed and I'll be in in a minute. You're like, okay, I'll, I'll put on a movie, what, whatnot. It was pretty late. Like I was pretty tired. I was exhausted. I mean, you get up at four AM for Christmas, when you're a kid, like you have no idea. And so like at that point, I'd been up for so long. So I was pretty ready. And at that point, I didn't really notice my toothache. I was fine. I didn't want the medicine. She's like, well, I'm gonna bring you some medicine. Anyway, I'm like, no, thank you. Like at this point also, I, I feel like it's

• 27:01Speaker 03

  really important to know, I developed a distrust with doctors, with medicine. I was pretty strict on not ever wanting to take medicine because I didn't trust that it would work. Because for multiple years, my mom was sick and she was supposed to be taking this medicine that was gonna make her better. And time and time again, I saw this, these high highs and these low lows, and then the medicine not working. My mom's still staying in bed, not being herself. And so anytime it came for me to take any medicine, I threw tantrums. Like I did not want to take him. I didn't think it would work. I was very distrustful. And so when my mom told me that we were gonna take medicine, I'm like, no, I would honestly rather

• 27:45Speaker 03

  like have whatever pain that I was having than take medicine that wasn't gonna help me.

• 27:48Speaker 02

  Fair enough.

• 27:49Speaker 03

  And so when she said that, like, I'm like, oh no, I'm just gonna fall asleep. So then I don't have to take the medicine. Well, she is taking a lot of time. She's like in the kitchen and our.

• 28:02Speaker 03

  I say our bedroom still it's so funny. So our room was here and then there was like this tiny little hallway, the stairs go up and then the kitchen right here. So just very close adjacent to each other. And I'm like, why isn't my mom like coming in here? Like, why is she still taking a long time? So I go and check on her. She says, can I go back inside? She doesn't or into the bed. She doesn't want me to come and check on her. Which again, very parentified. I felt like I constantly had to check on her, make sure she was doing okay, like. Make sure emotionally she was doing what she's supposed to be doing. If something was out of the normal, I knew. So I sensed that something wasn't right.

• 28:44Speaker 03

  And then she took a bath and I'm like, well, why is she taking a bath? Like, it's so late. I think at this point, you know, it's like nine o'clock. Why is she doing this? Like, we should be going to bed. So then I check on her there. She's she yells again, can I go into bed? So finally I go in and she's like on the computer and I see a couple of glasses like in the distance. She's like, I'm gonna get you your medicine, but you need to go into bed immediately. And she started to get more stern. And like I I pretty much knew at that point, that's like the mom voice, like you don't mess with, you don't mess with mom at that point. And so I just go back and I just try to fall asleep.

• 29:22Speaker 03

  And I think I did, I dozed off a little bit and then I was woken up by my mom saying like, okay, can I have your medicine? And I look down and there's this clear glass, it's a short glass and it's like kind of like murky. I could see like crumbles of like white stuff, which at the time I thought was just like an Alka Seltzer tablet. And she's like, okay, you need to, you need to take this to feel better. And I'm like, oh, no, I, I, I feel better, mom. Like, I don't need to take it. I'm okay. And she's like, no, you're gonna take this medicine. And so I, I started drinking it because she's my mom and she told me to.

• 30:01Speaker 03

  And you have this undying trust that your parents are always gonna do what's in your best interest and they're always going to protect you. And if she's telling me this will make me feel better, like it's gonna make me feel better. So I started drinking it and I explain it like the worst taste. I've ever tasted in my life. Like when you have that film, like that chalky film on it, on a pill that if you have to take. And it was that times like, I say a thousand, but it was like, it seriously was the worst. Like I couldn't take pills after this for the longest time because that taste just triggered everything in my body. So I tried to just drink it just with the water and the pills.

• 30:45Speaker 03

  Which I thought were Motrin or Children's Tylenol or something. And I couldn't take it. I was having a full mental breakdown. I was screaming, I was crying. And she's like, okay, well then if I put like a Capri Sun in there, will that make it better? So I'm like, well, maybe we'll try some juice in there. So she got a Capri Sun, she put that in there. Which helped, but it still was horrible and I ended up finishing the entire drink. I drank it all. And almost instantly, I remember feeling like a complete, um. Just like heaviness about my whole body, like everything time kind of stopped in that moment.

• 31:25Speaker 03

  And then she was like, you're gonna, you're gonna feel so much better now. And I remember laying like my head on the pillow and then. That was it. The next thing I remember was waking up in the Seattle Children's Hospital. And my dad was right there, holding my hand, sobbing. I have all of these IVs in me and I'm just wondering like, where's my mom?

• 31:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz you now you're, I mean, are you in the same state at this point? But you're like two, three hours away. Hospital. Time traveled. Ten. Just confused. To what's going on. And then, so did your dad kind of tell you, well, I mean, as much as he knew or? Cuz I'm assuming, I'm assuming the cops are involved at this point because the doctors have to be like, she has an inordinate amount of drugs in her system.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, so nobody was able to tell me what was going on at all. And I think that was the most confusing point for me. Because I just kept asking, where's my mom? I'm, now that I'm awake, I'm thinking it's the next day. I'm supposed to spend Christmas with my siblings. Like, that's the most important thing I'm focused on. I missed them. Like, I, I wanted to get my presents with my mom. Like, I just wanted to have family time. And I just kept asking them, where's my sibling? Where's, where's my mom? Like, why am I not in Port Angeles? I just came from Seattle. Like, we just drove away from here. So why am I here again? And nobody could tell me. I had no concept of why I was in the hospital, why I was hooked up to anything.

• 32:59Speaker 03

  It was a huge room and my dad could be there and like my, my dad's side of the family could be there at, like in certain increments. But the cops were at the front of the doors. So they were constantly being monitored. A majority of the time I had to spend time alone. They would give me a coloring book and they could, like I could color to pass the time. But really, or like watch TV or whatever, but they were advised not to tell me anything. And so I was just left to just be, and I didn't even ask. Like, I think that, I don't think I've ever shared this before, but like, I didn't even think about myself in that moment. Like, I didn't think about like, am I okay?

• 33:40Speaker 03

  Why am I hooked up to this? Like, why am I in the hospital? Like, all I was thinking about was other people and like my mom.

• 33:50Speaker 03

  Which is crazy because I've been going back in the case files and the nurse who was taking care of her. She noted that she didn't ask about me once. Like, she didn't ask how I was doing. Or like if I was okay, um, which just shows you the level of. Honestly insanity that she has. Because I think about my ten year old self and that's all I asked about was her. So, yeah, it didn't.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  In those days following and everything that happened after and being in the hospital and everything, nobody was telling me anything. And I think that, I think that they wanted to preserve my testimony and what had happened. Um, there was a detective that came in immediately at the Seattle Children's Hospital to interrogate me. And I don't remember that, like, interview at all. And then when we got back to Port Angeles, I had that interview again, which I've been able to since watch over. And it kind of brings back memories. I feel like I'm still watching it from above myself. I'm like dissociated from my body. But people ask like, well, when did you know? When did you know that your mom tried to kill you?

• 35:09Speaker 03

  When did you know that the medicine in there was a lethal dose of benzodiazepines, painkillers? They estimate about fifty to a hundred of them were in just my drink alone.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Cuz she drank some as well.

• 35:24Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. So.

• 35:28Speaker 03

  They. This is kind of where the story gets a little confusing. And I am processing this now, going back and looking at the trial in its entirety. And I'm only, oh gosh, I think there's fourteen hundred court documents on the, the week long trial. And I'm only, I started kind of at the end and I'm working my way back. But her whole defense was that this was a. There was a homicide letter and this was intended to be kind of like a murder, uh, murder suicide. So she wanted to take my life and hers as well. Which from the outside looking in, if you see and you read the letter that she left titled Last Will and Testament.

• 36:13Speaker 03

  There is, you know, there's how she titles it and who she writes to and how she says, spread our ashes along the spit. And I mean, she fully intended for definitely me to be gone. But she says that she wanted to take me to heaven with her. But now looking back, she walked out of the house completely fine. And I was taken out on a stretcher. My whole arm was losing blood flow. Um, I had white stuff coming out of my mouth. I was in a coma for a couple of days. They had to give me multiple Narcan reversals. And other reversals in order to even get me to wake up.

• 36:57Speaker 03

  And it's a miracle that I didn't have anything lasting. Medically wrong with me. Like, my brain was okay. Like, my organs weren't shut down, like anything like that. Like, that was a miracle. And so it's really hard for me to look at all the evidence and the premeditation that had to happen. And I think the prosecution did a really good job at poking holes in the defense of like, hey, okay. If, if you did just snap, cuz she, you can hear the nine one one call. I have that on my page of like.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  She called nine one one.

• 37:28Speaker 03

  She called nine one one. Yes, yeah. And that's another thing, like, who called nine one one? Like, when I tell this story, I'm like, I'm telling it from my perspective. But she actually calls nine one one.

• 37:40Speaker 03

  So I was administered the medication at ten thirty. They, around that time, they estimate. And then they estimate that if she took any, which she did take some, you can hear it in her voice. That she took some medication at sometime after twelve, because the last will and testament was saved and printed. At like twelve oh nine. So that's two hours after I was administered it. So I'm like basically lifeless in another room. She's printing out this last will and testament, putting it around. Like, fully knowing that I'm not doing well.

• 38:18Speaker 03

  And in the crime scene photos too, like she would have had to crawl over my body and place herself. In, in the bed closest to the wall. Which is just eerie to think about too, like. She She knew they had been hours. Also, the prosecution points out that there was no like nightstand. Like, the room that she had was very small. So the bed basically went from like wall to wall. So in order for her to crawl over me and then have access to

• 38:56Speaker 03

  a phone, she literally had to have brought it in with her. So her whole idea of, oh, well, I just, I I came to and then there and and God must have just placed the the phone on my chest because then I just knew I had to call to save my daughter. Because she's now the savior. That's the defense. Like, oh, I had to save because I wanted both of us to go to heaven because I was so scared that McKenna was being abused and all of these different things, which there's so many holes in that theory. Like, I hardly saw my dad, you know, like I, my dad never abused me. And it's wild that that was

• 39:38Speaker 03

  what was used of like, oh, I I I just had to save her. I was so scared. It's like, I wasn't gonna see him for months, you know, like, were you mad that we he was taking me to Disneyland? Were you jealous? She also saw me as just a full extension of her. So there was never this, like, whatever my dad had done to me. Like, was she jealous that I had this relationship with my dad? There's so many thoughts, but when she calls nine one one and she says, I just snapped. It's like, okay, well, you had to fully, you were fully capable of driving home from Seattle. You are fully capable of taking a bath. You are fully capable of writing this letter.

• 40:19Speaker 03

  The prosecution points out that there's no punctuation issues. Her name is spelt. She's able to say the PIN of her bank account. Like, this is someone who was not under the

• 40:34Speaker 03

  influence of, you know, any, she hadn't taken the pills or anything at this point. And so I don't know. I I I think that I'll spend probably the rest of my life speculating like exactly what had happened. She's the only one who truly knows the timeline and she never testified. She never spoke to exactly what had happened in in the walls of that house, but from what we know, she walked out. She was able to walk out of the house when she was taken to the hospital. You know, she was treated. You could tell that she had taken something, but also when you when you think about addiction and an addict, they take so much.

• 41:19Speaker 03

  Whatever their drug of choice is, right? Their tolerance is so much higher than anyone else. You can't compare a forty year old's tolerance who's an active addiction to a ten year old.

• 41:30Speaker 02

  No.

• 41:31Speaker 03

  Who has never taken a single painkiller in her life. So I think that was like a huge gap also. Um, and and the fact that she was, she was okay. The nurses that actually took care of her were, she was fine. She was asking for a blanket. She was demanding all sorts of things for herself. While the the small, the hospital in my hometown couldn't even take care of me and had to lifeline me to the Seattle Children's Hospital just to try to get some extra care to save my life. So yeah, that I think that that part is really hard for me because

• 42:11Speaker 03

  painting it as if she's the savior or that she was trying to do this to herself. Now, looking back as an adult, I just don't see that being real.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  No, and she was, she was the savior and and then she became the victim.

• 42:26Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 42:26Speaker 02

  It's like, oh, poor me. Look at what happened to me. And I saved her, but and then she's not even asking about you. It's just, yeah, the amount of selfishness and I'm assuming narcissism and just that's awful.

• 42:40Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 42:41Speaker 02

  Continuing, your mom's in the hospital, you're in the hospital, you've spoken with your dad, you've had some interviews. And I know I I did watch what you showed of you getting interviewed as a ten year old. You're incredibly well spoken, which kind of just speaks to how you were parentified and made to be the adult essentially in your relationship. Just just the way you speak, you can tell. You're just like very poised. Um, and I'm assuming, do you remember any of that at all? Or is that just a blur? Because I know you said you were kind of looking in on yourself.

• 43:17Speaker 03

  Yeah. So when I saw that for the first time, it definitely brought back that suppressed memory that I had forgotten about. Like, I do kind of remember being in that room, but I think trauma has this way of

• 43:34Speaker 03

  suppressing memories as a way of protecting. So like, a lot of that, it's like, I can, I can put myself back there and I remember bits and pieces, but like, the entirety of that video, I I don't recall. Um, this specific questions or emotions I felt during that time, I don't remember. So when I watch that footage back, it like breaks my heart all over again because, like you said, you can tell how parentified I was like. I remember being that little girl. I remember being like labeled as smart or like mature for my age. And I didn't know what that meant. And now seeing that, like, I cannot believe that was me at ten years old. And

• 44:17Speaker 03

  so much of like the personality traits that I've always carried, I thought were just personality traits, but they were really just products of survival and like ways that I had to be in order to cope. So being like articulate or over explaining myself or like you can see in the in the interviews. I am like hard on myself. I'm like drawing something for him, like the layout of the house. And I'm like, oh, that wasn't very good. That that present wasn't symmetrical. Or I say something like that. And I'm like, poor girl, like you're in this interview room with no concept of what has gone on. The fact that you're even alive

• 44:59Speaker 03

  is a miracle and you're just worried about like making sure that you paint this picture for the detective in the right way.

• 45:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:08Speaker 03

  So yeah, that's just, I think that's really hard to watch myself in that way and then realize that there's a part of these memories that I really don't recall at all. Like, I I remember a lot, but then there's parts that

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:23Speaker 03

  I don't.

• 45:23Speaker 02

  I think that's just natural. I think your brain's just protecting itself.

• 45:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:27Speaker 02

  And and at that point, it seemed like in the interviews, you're still, you cared for your mom. You're still worried about her to a certain extent.

• 45:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 45:34Speaker 02

  Get confused, I'm sure more than anything, but just like, where is she? How is she?

• 45:40Speaker 02

  And that so at what point did did at any point during those interviews, did they, they didn't say anything? Because they probably just wanted to again, what you said, protect your testimony and to make sure not to taint.

• 45:51Speaker 03

  Yes. Yeah. And I think that there was so much in the investigation on the back end that they had no answers for. So they didn't want to give a child an answer and disappoint them. They were trying to figure out the whole custody thing where I was gonna go. I was having to stay with the foster family because when I was released from the hospital, because they didn't know if these allegations my mom had made against my dad were true. So like, what was in, they kept saying, what's in the best interest of McKenna? What's in the best interest of McKenna? And it's like, it's hard because obviously a normal ten year old like doesn't know what's in their best interest. Like, and I and I didn't know what was in my best interest, but I knew what was my normal. And like, I just wish that there was a way for

• 46:35Speaker 03

  somebody to have sat me down and said in whatever appropriately aged way that they could have and saying like, your mom hurt you or like some

• 46:48Speaker 02

  Did something bad.

• 46:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. She did something bad and she's away. And I think I started during that interview, I kind of started to pick up on it because I got emotional at a couple of points. And I was like, where is my mom? Like, why is no one telling me this? And why can't you tell me this? Then the fact that they couldn't tell me anything, I I was smart enough to know, okay, well, something's bad. Like, and then I even started to defend her. I was like, oh, I think the medicine that she put in there might have been expired. And that's maybe why I had a bad reaction and had to go to the hospital. Like, I still didn't know that there was pills that wasn't children's Motrin or that it wasn't Alka Seltzer. Like, I I was, I didn't know, but I was still defending her.

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• 47:58Speaker 03

  And honestly, I don't think anybody told me what had happened. Other than continuing this this narrative that mom was sick. And that's all I knew for like a while.

• 48:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, cuz it's a long process, right?

• 48:17Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah, there was a couple of days where they were trying to figure out custody. My family in Washington was trying to fight for me to stay there because that was all I've ever known. I had friends, like my home base was there. But then, of course, like my dad's out of the family, he's fighting for custody of me because I've never lived with my dad. And he's the the next up, what like the next guardian, I guess, of me. So like that makes sense, but he ends up getting custody of me. And I

• 48:53Speaker 03

  have to basically just uproot my whole life and move to Idaho. I wasn't able to like pack up my stuff. I didn't, I don't even know, maybe they went to the crime scene and got like a suitcase cuz I do remember having my suitcase. So maybe somebody was able to go in and just get me a couple of clothing items cuz all I had was what I picked up out of a trash bag in the hospital, like that's what they give kids who don't have anything. You have to pick clothes that don't even fit you. And so all I had was the suitcase and then, okay, now your dad's getting custody of you. You're uprooting your whole life, we're gonna put you on a plane and then you're gonna go live with your aunt and uncle. So that was another thing that was like so confusing

• 49:39Speaker 03

  because I'm going through all this, I don't know what's going on, nobody's telling me anything. And then I'm, my dad's getting custody, but I'm gonna go live with my aunt and uncle because why can't I live with my dad, like nobody's telling me that? And I'm obviously so excited at that point to live with my aunt and uncle cuz I love my cousins and like whatever, it's a fresh start and but also I'm leaving my brother and sister. I'm not even able to like say goodbye to my friends. I'm having to just uproot everything and start new. And I have no autonomy in any of this, someone's asking me like what I want, what's like, okay, you guys are all deciding what's best for McKenna in the time, but like what about what I want?

• 50:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:22Speaker 03

  So that was like a really hard part of my story.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Was there no like therapist or counselor that stepped in to talk to you about any of this?

• 50:35Speaker 03

  So when I went to Idaho,

• 50:39Speaker 03

  I didn't live with my dad because of his addiction, I lived with my aunt and uncle. And I remember going to this place, I think it was called the Children's Place, and it was therapy for kids and it's basically play therapy. So I did go for a very short amount of time, I think I would leave on my lunch break from school. And I don't remember if it was once a week or twice a week. And I really don't remember it being very much longer than like a couple of months. And I would go to this place, I would sit down with the therapist and then we'd just talk. And a majority of the time I was just asking about my siblings, like is my sister okay? Because at this point I was like her caretaker, so like my main concern is like, where's my sister, is she okay? I don't know what goes on at her dad's house, you know, so.

• 51:23Speaker 02

  Because they just went to their other parents.

• 51:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, I wasn't at their dads when they had visitations cuz I went to my dad. So I'm like concerned about her cuz she's so young and I was just so close with her. And again, I'm I'm that person, I'm that kid who's just asking about everyone else and I don't think I was really processing what was going on with me. And I do remember a conversation, we were playing pool during this play therapy and they were saying like, well, you know that if your mom was in her right mind, she would never hurt you. And I think that like going back, that's probably one of the first conversations that I had where I started to realize that

• 52:05Speaker 03

  she did try to hurt me and something was like horribly wrong and that was why I wasn't with her. And then I just

• 52:16Speaker 03

  think that over the next few years, it transitioned to your mom was not well, she tried to hurt you to your mom tried to kill you. And I don't know where that shifted, um, but it wasn't in therapy and it wasn't.

• 52:35Speaker 03

  I mean, I don't, I I should have been in therapy, therapy a lot longer than I was.

• 52:39Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 52:39Speaker 03

  Cuz I I think that I I went a couple of weeks and they're like, oh, yeah, she's good. Um, I think the thing about it is, is that

• 52:47Speaker 03

  I wish more professionals and teachers and therapists, I I don't know, I I just wish that they had more awareness that even if a child is acting like they have it all together, that in and of itself might be a trauma response.

• 53:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely.

• 53:04Speaker 03

  Like I think that people look at, okay, if they're acting out, if they're, you know,

• 53:12Speaker 03

  if kids look a certain way, if they're not wanting to participate, if they're having tantrums, if they're, you know, that's a lot easier to identify, oh, something might be going on.

• 53:22Speaker 02

  Something looks wrong.

• 53:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, something looks wrong, so something is wrong.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 53:25Speaker 03

  But then what about the kids who pour themselves into extracurriculars and, you know, being perfect and having it all together, even though something just went horribly wrong and like, oh, well, you know, she's doing surprisingly well. It's like, well, maybe she's not and that's just her way of coping with things.

• 53:43Speaker 02

  You've been groomed to compartmentalize everything.

• 53:46Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  It's just, yeah, and I don't think kids get enough credit for how smart they are.

• 53:51Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 53:51Speaker 02

  Like just, it's just like even just watching you in that interview, it's just like, gosh, you get so many things you have handled and dealt with and, you know, taking care of your sister and your mom and and you're just so little, you don't think a kid would understand it or like they clearly can't say anything to you. It's just like, I just wanna scream through it and be like, just tell her what's going on. Like that's what she needs to know.

• 54:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:16Speaker 02

  So it's, yeah, it's interesting, I I don't know what the right answer is to it, but I feel like at the very least, yeah, some even different kind of therapy cuz even, I don't know, I don't know what it would be.

• 54:27Speaker 03

  I know, I know.

• 54:28Speaker 02

  You clearly needed to work through these emotions and they needed to unpack it more. I don't know if you've done therapy now.

• 54:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, a hundred percent.

• 54:37Speaker 02

  It's like, wait, I'm an adult and I can like try to make sense of it, but I feel like it would just be so much more beneficial if it was

• 54:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:45Speaker 02

  treated like you're an actual, not, you're not an adult, but like just older.

• 54:48Speaker 03

  I think that's kind of like what I want to advocate for now. And I feel like I'm starting to kind of like research, like, okay, what are the ways that we can start to help children in these situations that are age appropriate? Because also we have to know, kids in that in those circumstances, they have to be parentified, so like they have to be more mature at some point. And so having these conversations, like, yes, maybe for like a normal ten year old who's in a stable household, like that maybe wouldn't be appropriate, but like, how can we maybe not say, oh, your mom tried to murder you? But like, can we have a conversation about

• 55:30Speaker 03

  I don't know, mental health and like what that looks like? And, you know, you know, your mom had been sick for a really long time, or you know, your mom had been struggling for a really long time. I don't know, I don't know what that looks like, I think I'm just searching for that now, like what I, what do I wish that people would have done and stepped in?

• 55:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 55:47Speaker 03

  And what other ways, of course, I wish prolonged therapy would have, would prolonged therapy would have been something that was very beneficial for me. Because at that point, I think I just learned, like you said, compartmentalizing. And then there was like this McKenna before and then this McKenna after. And it's almost like I just had to switch on the survival mode of, okay, well, now I have this new life. I'm not gonna talk about what happened to me, I'm not gonna talk about my mom, I'm gonna have an answer for everything if somebody asks why I lived with my aunt and uncle. And I'm just gonna push forward and pretend like I didn't have this other life cuz that's easier than working through it, I guess.

• 56:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, or having everybody ask you questions like you should know them.

• 56:36Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 56:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, why, like why, it's like, I don't know, actually, and you probably won't ever know. And that's, I can't imagine how tough that is.

• 56:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:44Speaker 02

  But and then with the, so in the story now, you, she's arrested, I'm assuming, at this point.

• 56:51Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 56:51Speaker 02

  And then, usually it takes years until you can do some sort of trial to build a case and everything like that. So how, do you see her at any point during that or not until, cuz you testified, correct?

• 57:03Speaker 03

  Yeah, so.

• 57:04Speaker 02

  You testified.

• 57:05Speaker 03

  There was two years, which is pretty typical for um, any trial, it usually takes two years or more um, to go in front of a jury. So in that two years, I was in Idaho, I didn't go visit my family in Washington.

• 57:25Speaker 03

  How that that I remember no, when she was still out because she ended up posting bail or

• 57:32Speaker 02

  She was on house arrest?

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, so she ended up being on house arrest for a majority of that time.

• 57:38Speaker 03

  I think that her bail was set at like a half a million or something like that. I'm not sure. Um, but yeah, she was on, she was on house arrest and she was functioning like a normal human. She was, you know, watching my cousin. She was normal. And and the thing about it is too, is that if you knew my mom before addiction, she obviously had some struggles with mental health. Like I think that that has been prevalent her whole life and there is a certain level of empathy I have for what she went through because right? These things don't just come out of nowhere like she also experienced her own trauma. But it was never dealt with and it was never dealt with in a healthy way. And so

• 58:24Speaker 03

  people just thought on the outside, she was like a perfect mom who loved her kids and you know, whatever. And then she had this addiction. Aside from that, and so when she's on house arrest, like people know her for her. So I think everyone around and in the family was kind of going through their own conflict of like, we can't imagine that she did this and like this had to have just been like drug induced, like it was only because she was on drugs. Like there's no way that she could have done this in any other capacity. So now that she's clean, like let's rally around her and I don't fault any of my family for thinking that way because I put myself in that situation and if something like that

• 59:08Speaker 03

  ever happened to me and my sister or something like that, like I have no idea how I would react. Like I think that you're kind of all just in a state of survival of like let's make sure McKenna is okay, but then also like let's you know, we have to believe that this person isn't crazy and they wouldn't do this if they were in their right mind.

• 59:27Speaker 02

  They've only seen her as as good.

• 59:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, as my sister or my daughter or my this or my that. Um, my grandma was pretty much the only one, which is her mom, that was like right off the bat, she had a couple of conversations with her and then after that, within the first week, she cut off all contact and hasn't been in contact with her at all since. And my mu- my grandmother is my best friend and I think that she saw right away that this was someone that was so incredibly unwell. She tried to blame my grandmother. She tried to blame my dad. She tried to blame, you know, everybody in her life was put to blame for this except for her. And I think that that's the hardest thing because

• 1:00:10Speaker 03

  you're out on house arrest, you're like living your life, you're getting all these friends from church, you're trying to like rally around and get this case built like you're fine. And I think she fully did believe that she had conversations. I heard some jail calls where oh, I'm gonna be on Oprah one day because I saved my daughter's life. And then I think that's when I started listening to these back as an adult and realizing this wasn't just someone who was in like a drug induced psychosis, as she would maybe say. This is someone who, yes, of course, the addiction didn't help. Usually if someone has addiction issues, they have a dual diagnosis. They have some sort of underlying mental health issue.

• 1:00:52Speaker 03

  There has been multiple diagnoses. I don't know which ones are valid, you know, borderline bipolar narcissism, like a plethora of them. So when you add that all together, like obviously that's a recipe for disaster, but this isn't just the drugs. There's many people who are addicts and I've been around that scene on my dad's side. I've been to Celebrate Recovery. I've seen the addiction side of things. Many people who deal with that who struggle solely on their own. They don't also try to murder their children. Or people who have borderline personality, who I want to strongly advocate for, like they are also don't try to just murder their children.

• 1:01:32Speaker 02

  Some justification. No empathy for that.

• 1:01:35Speaker 03

  Yes, yeah. And I think that I've been seeing the these like ideas of like oh, because it was this, that's justifiable, like absolutely not. Like there's no justifying you trying to murder your child. So I think that in those two years back to the story is just her trying to build this case of I'm gonna pin this on like basically the insanity plea, like I wasn't in my right mind. And yeah, I was so far removed. I was in Idaho. I was just living my own life, living with my aunt and uncle. And then um, going into sixth grade, my dad had a year where he was completely sober. So then I went and lived with him.

• 1:02:16Speaker 03

  He got remarried to his fourth wife and we kind of just like started again a new life. Like I was so used to that. Okay, I'm moving again. I'm starting a new school. I'm starting new friends. And we're gonna start over again. So just got really used to like starting over. And then that's when we got the subpoena to go testify against her and that was gonna be the first time that I had seen her since she handed me that glass of medicine.

• 1:02:45Speaker 02

  So you were what twelve, thirteen at this point now?

• 1:02:47Speaker 03

  Yep, yep. Yeah, well, first of all, middle school, I mean, it's just a crazy.

• 1:02:56Speaker 03

  So you're going through all of this and then, yeah, and then I got, I I was extremely nervous. I was at that point, living with my dad, obviously he had his own opinions on my mom and he has, he just doesn't have a filter. So it went, that was kind of when it went from like your mom tried to hurt you, she's unwell to like your mom tried to kill you. And that was like laying down the facts of it, which she did, but I think that was really hard for me to process and then go into testifying of like, okay, well now I'm not just facing my mom in court, I'm facing the person who tried to murder me. And that just that shift in realizing that those two people

• 1:03:40Speaker 03

  are the same person, you know, is is something I just don't even think I can like explain. Like that feeling is so indescribable. I was nervous. I was I was having like anxiety attacks about it and but I knew that I had to be brave and then I had to put on a brave face and I had to do it because whatever obviously helped the prosecution to get a better understanding of what happened. Like I was the only other person there that night. So like, I mean, I didn't have a choice, but I knew I wanted to be brave, which also is very interesting on

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  why children don't have a choice to testify.

• 1:04:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, that is crazy.

• 1:04:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, and I don't, I don't know what the exact rules are with that. But since you're underage, yeah, it's like yeah, it's like you can't make your own decisions because you're underage, even though it's like, no, I'm not actually comfortable with that. Like, why isn't there an option or is there, I'm not sure. Is there an option for you to sit in a room and get these questions not being in front mom who you haven't seen in two, three years?

• 1:04:50Speaker 03

  Right, because I know that like I think that there is like with with sexual assault victims, they're able to decide if they're going to face their perpetrator. So as a child, and usually children have a lot more protection, so I would be interested or incurious to speak with the prosecution or to speak with someone who was involved in my case to see like who made that decision that I was gonna do it?

• 1:05:19Speaker 03

  Did I? Like, I I don't even remember. I I just remember being subpoenaed. So like, did I say like, oh, I'm fine with that. And I just was like gonna put on my brave face, but I don't know.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  Or how was it presented to you? It's like, oh, you need to do this. It's like, okay, and you're an adult basically at this point. Cause you've been how you were raised. Yeah, okay, I'll do that. Like cause you seem to be or used to be, I'm sure have carried on now. It's just like yeah, I have to do what I have to do because I have to do it. There's no arguing it. Especially adults. It's like, oh, you're my elder, so I'm gonna do what you tell me to do. Yeah, that's really interesting. I'd be curious to know about that because it does feel so just exposing and I can't imagine how you felt up there. And with your mom there, did you pay attention to her at all or were you just blocking her out?

• 1:06:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's kind of wild, like again, I see myself like up here when I, when I visualize these things. But yeah, I walked into from this like side door and I wasn't able to be present for any of the other trials. So like I didn't sit in on anything. So they just I had a caseworker and she, she was lovely. She gave me this rock that said believe and I still have it. And she said, okay, just hold this during you testifying and just like, kind of like rub it if you get nervous, because I like shake a lot when I'm nervous. And you know, just know that like you can look at your brother or look, you know, just look somewhere safe.

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  And so I go in and where I was sitting, like the judge is here and then the court reporter is here and then I was here. And so the court reporter was kind of blocking her, like my line of vision to her, which was amazing for me, like, okay, good. I don't really have to look there and like I could just look for my brother for support and just like really hone in on that because he was like my safe place. But um, she did often try to like you know, move her head and try to see me and glance because I'm sure that the court reporter was blocking her line of vision for me. And so I could feel that and that would make me like very, very nervous and you know, I'm sure I stumbled on my words. I'm still working

• 1:07:34Speaker 03

  through that. I haven't read my tests, like me testifying yet in my court files. I'm working towards that now, but

• 1:07:42Speaker 03

  I do remember bits and pieces of the defense trying to kind of make me an uncredible witness, which is wild. But they kind of wanted to paint this idea that because I'd been living with my dad's side of the family, that they were like tainting my views of what had happened. So they really honed in on me testifying that I was watching a certain movie. I think I said while I was testifying that I was wearing, watching The Devil Wears Prada while I was going to bed. But originally I had said nanny McPhee. So then they like hounded on this for like twenty minutes, it felt like. Made the jury leave. Had me rewatch my interview where I said nanny McPhee and I'm like, okay, yeah, maybe I did like

• 1:08:26Speaker 03

  it felt like such a silly thing to focus on when it's like, hey, we're focusing on what I said, like what movie I was watching, which was two years ago, which was also like I had gotten out of my coma. Went to this interview, basically.

• 1:08:43Speaker 03

  And like now I'm two years outside of it. Maybe I was watching Nanny McPhee instead of The Devil Wears Prada. But why are we focused on that? Why don't we focus on? What I was doing?

• 1:08:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, with the actual important stuff that is traumatizing.

• 1:08:56Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:08:57Speaker 02

  What fucking movie? Cause I understood they're trying to poke holes in whatever you're doing, but that does seem like the, the bottom of the barrel. They were scraping because they didn't have a case.

• 1:09:08Speaker 03

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:09:10Speaker 02

  Awful though for a ten year or for whatever twelve.

• 1:09:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was twelve. Yeah, so I must have been like, I'm, I think I had just turned thirteen at that point. Um, and yeah, that just, that seemed silly. I remember them also asking, you know, did your mom care for you? And I was really proud of myself because I'm like, well, care for me in the sense that she took care of me or that she cared about me. Because yeah, I, I believe that my mom did care about me. But she didn't take care of me. I was doing everything that I needed to, to uphold the household and so I do remember certain questions like that that stick in my brain. I don't remember all of it. Um. But it felt like a really long time. And like, once I was done, we walked out of the courtroom and there was like this glass

• 1:09:54Speaker 03

  wall and we had to walk by her. And I remember my brother kind of moving around me so that he could kind of block me from her and like shield her. And I think that was the most like chilling part of it because

• 1:10:12Speaker 03

  it was like this, I'm so afraid of this person and like we're so close. It'd been two and a half years. Like I'd longed for a conversation. I'd been I'd gone from saving every school paper that I had in Idaho hoping to give it to my mom one day because I thought I was gonna see her again to like realizing that she had tried to kill me. And like, all I wanted to do was ask her questions, like ask her for myself, like, why? Why did you do this? What was going on? Was this just the drugs? So it's like I'm walking by this person again that like I have so much love for, but I'm terrified of.

• 1:10:47Speaker 02

  Mm hmm. Oh my gosh, I can't even imagine.

• 1:10:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:10:50Speaker 02

  It's just and, uh, when the trial was over, what was the, what was the outcome?

• 1:10:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, so she ended up being found guilty of her charges of first degree attempted murder. And she was sentenced.

• 1:11:05Speaker 02

  First degree.

• 1:11:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, first degree attempted murder. She was also found guilty of something along, and I have to look this up. It's something what, that has to do with like neglect of a child.

• 1:11:18Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:11:18Speaker 03

  And so the, the two were to be served concurrently. Is that, is that the right word?

• 1:11:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Speaker 03

  Like at the same time.

• 1:11:28Speaker 02

  Consecutively, like concurrently, I think.

• 1:11:30Speaker 03

  At the same time, I don't know.

• 1:11:31Speaker 02

  My brain.

• 1:11:32Speaker 03

  They, yeah, they were, they were to be, yeah, they were to be served at the same time. So she was supposed to get, um, twelve years total for it.

• 1:11:43Speaker 02

  That's insane.

• 1:11:44Speaker 03

  Which doesn't feel like enough. Yeah. We were so she was found guilty and then what happens is that then there's a judgment and sentencing afterwards. And so that's basically when we're able to bring like our letters to the judge and pleading for a larger sentence. And so my plea was that like, please make it so that my sister is eighteen and grown and that I'm eighteen and grown and like can, we can be adults and we don't have to be fearful and we can kind of like develop and make our own choices at that point. And a lot of my family on my dad's side vouched for that as well. She had a lot of people vouching the other way for her too.

• 1:12:27Speaker 02

  Really?

• 1:12:27Speaker 03

  And like to have as little sentence as possible that this was just drug induced, you know, so I, I'm interested in hearing and seeing those as well. I'm still, like I said, diving into those, but um, ultimately she only got the twelve years and then she ended up only serving nine. So she is fully out now.

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 1:12:49Speaker 03

  And off parole and everything.

• 1:12:51Speaker 02

  Wow. And I'm safely assuming you have not spoken or seen her or anything like that.

• 1:12:57Speaker 03

  I've had multiple run ins.

• 1:12:59Speaker 02

  Oh, you have?

• 1:13:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, I've actually had to, back in twenty twenty, I had to get a no contact order.

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• 1:13:36Speaker 03

  So let me back up. So there was during the sentencing, the prosecution was trying to get a no contact order for life for all of me and my siblings, like all of us. For our safety, the judge only stated it for me. So she was also to have no contact with anyone under the age of eighteen without parental consent. But she did still have some parental rights for all, all of us, which is crazy. Um. But I did get that no contact order for life. At eighteen years old, I ended up breaking it because that was like the time where I was able to make that decision. And I just, I had so many questions. Like at eighteen, I feel like you're starting to like

• 1:14:21Speaker 03

  question the world. Like you just like are, what's your reality? What's going on? Like I was applying for colleges. I, I was gonna go out of the state and I just had I felt like I had this life ahead of me, but I had again, this, this huge part before where I had so many questions. And so I ended up breaking that at eighteen and going and seeing her in prison for the first time. Um, and once you break that, you're never able to get it reinstated. And I didn't know that. I think that there had been some talk about that. The judge was like, okay, you know what you're doing. You know the severity. And I'm like, yeah, I know what I'm doing. Like

• 1:15:03Speaker 03

  I'm trying to break this so that I can go see, but I wasn't comprehending that I could never get a no contact order again.

• 1:15:09Speaker 02

  Clear to you.

• 1:15:10Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, like, like, please let me know that I will never ever get this level of protection again.

• 1:15:16Speaker 02

  Right.

• 1:15:16Speaker 03

  Um, and so, yeah, I just, I was curious and, and so many people will say how could you? How could you go do that? How like, first of all, that's terrifying, which it was like going into prison to face her was, but like you also have to realize it's your mom and like you have this biology. If it had been some random perpetrator, I don't think I ever would have done that. But all that I knew of her before this was that she was my best friend. And then I was completely cut off and not able to have any contact. So I just had, I wanted to face her. I wanted to have those questions for myself and I

• 1:15:58Speaker 03

  don't think I really ever got the answers that I was looking for. The blame has always been shifted. It's always been everybody else. It's always been the drugs. It's always been some sort of explanation other than

• 1:16:14Speaker 03

  it was, you know, me.

• 1:16:16Speaker 02

  Screwed up.

• 1:16:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. Yes. And of course there's I saw, I'm sorries and there's tears. And that looks good to

• 1:16:27Speaker 03

  maybe the outsiders, you know, like, oh, well, I, I did say sorry. I have cried. We have like had these hugs and these emotional moments, but when, when I'm sorry is not backed up with a lifetime of changed behavior, it means nothing to me. And so that has been a consistent theme throughout the rest of my adulthood is after that moment, there was continued abuse. There was continued emails that she would send me telling me that I'm cold and calloused and how could I have been? How, how did I turn out this way? And there would be these, oh, I love you so much. You're so amazing. You're so beautiful. How'd you turn out this way? And then you're horrible.

• 1:17:11Speaker 03

  Can you believe what I went through and all the abuse that I endured in my life and up and down? And it's like, are you not seeing that you did this to me and what I endured? Because of you and having to grow up not only without a mom, but with a mom that's in prison because she was my perpetrator.

• 1:17:29Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:17:30Speaker 03

  So I think that just showed her level of insanity to me and she doesn't believe that she has a mental illness. She thinks that she's perfectly healthy and she's fine and it was a drug induced psychosis and that's how she lives her life and it shows in her behaviors. And then the multiple relationships that she has that have turned out catastrophically bad. And it's just not a, yeah, it's not, it's not healthy for me. It's not healthy for my family. I will do everything to protect, you know, my family from that. And that's why I had to go back in twenty twenty for a no contact order. Which I was only able to get for about a year. They wouldn't give me any longer.

• 1:18:12Speaker 02

  So is that the same thing? Cause I'm not familiar with a, a restraining order?

• 1:18:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Speaker 02

  Just the same, okay, it's just a different name, kind of like, okay.

• 1:18:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:18:19Speaker 02

  For only one year?

• 1:18:21Speaker 03

  Yeah. So.

• 1:18:23Speaker 03

  Typically in small towns, it like works in your favor if you have the same judges on the docket because they have seen the name. They know the case, they know what has happened before. And that's primarily been a lot of what had happened to me when I got emancipated at seventeen, I was, you know. People knew, the judge knew who my mom was, they knew kind of what I had been through and that worked in my favor. However, when I went back for the no contact order, we had a new judge on the docket and it was COVID. So we had to do court on our phones, like I wasn't even able to appear. And so that was like my mom's like showtime. It was like her, if you know a narcissist, like they love to be in front of the camera.

• 1:19:06Speaker 03

  They love to have the spotlight on them and they think that anything that revolves around them, yes, is like their. I don't know, their, their time to shine. And that's exactly what this was. Um, at this point she had moved to Idaho, I was still living in Washington. I was in Port Angeles at the time and it was like her time to show the judge how amazing she was, how good she was doing and how. Unwell she thinks I was, she told the judge that I was obsessed with her. And then I moved back to her hometown because I wanted to be her, which is wild because like. You're my mom, you made that my hometown, like my entire family.

• 1:19:46Speaker 02

  How it goes.

• 1:19:46Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:47Speaker 02

  Happen to be there.

• 1:19:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:19:49Speaker 02

  Unfortunately.

• 1:19:49Speaker 03

  My entire family lives there and I'm not like, it's like she totally flipped the script of like. Projection of everything she feels towards me, towards her, like she has always been obsessed with me, she. When she was on house arrest, she had a complete room of just my stuff. My bedding, my everything, my pictures, there was no pictures of my other siblings, it was just me, it was like a McKenna shrine. And I saw it because I went and visited my grandpa and that's where she was living during house arrest. So once she was in prison, he just left that room the way it was. So you walk in and you're like, okay, but I'm obsessed with you, no, it's the other way around. But for years, like that's her mentality is like, it's everybody else.

• 1:20:34Speaker 03

  So having that experience with the court was really frustrating because I felt like I was pleading like, okay. She was even trying to say like, oh, she hasn't, she can't even graduate college, it's been five years, it's like. Okay, well, I have to put myself through college, I have to pay for everything, I have to work. Because I don't have parents who are helping to support me, so yeah, yeah, it's taking me a little bit longer.

• 1:20:58Speaker 02

  Who was in jail for nine years, like that's.

• 1:21:01Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, I'm glad that you got your, your, um. Your degree while you were in jail, paid for by the taxpayers money, but like, no, I actually had to pay for my own, so it took me a little bit longer.

• 1:21:12Speaker 02

  Dacity is.

• 1:21:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:13Speaker 02

  Oh, my god.

• 1:21:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, so it's, it's things like that where I think I get really nervous as a survivor. And I was so nervous for so long to share my story because. I was made to feel like I was crazy, like I was the one that was. Something was wrong with me and I think I felt that way. From both my mom and my dad and like trying to just figure out life aside from survival. And now that I've like finally started to speak out, it's like, I just hope that. Other people can see like you're not crazy, you're not like, you aren't defined by the worst thing that's ever happened to you and.

• 1:21:58Speaker 03

  Even if these like crazy things are going on, like whatever that looks like, you aren't those things. And I think that's why I wanted to fight for the no contact order, why I wanted to like keep facing her because I. Wanted to finally speak up and like reclaim. My own power, like you're so powerless for so long that I wanted to be like, you know what? I don't care if I'm the only one crying in front of this judge and like I'm deeply affected by this, like. You are no longer allowed to like hurt me, abuse me, like. Attack me anymore. And so even though it was only a year, I felt like it was kind of a victory, it's like you can say what you want about me, but I'm still not going to back down and like be afraid.

• 1:22:40Speaker 03

  Of you and so, yeah, I tried to go back after that year and get it reinstated, but. I was somehow supposed to serve her and I didn't know where she lived and. So I just have let it go null and void at this point, but I think that there was enough.

• 1:22:59Speaker 03

  Of the point across that like I wasn't going to go down without a fight and like I will protect myself and my family at any cost, so. I haven't, yeah, I've had some like fake accounts reach out to me and like weird things go on and. Cyber stalking and things like that that still happened, I was walking in my hometown, just visiting and. She was parked just watching me walk, which was crazy and that's when I started to realize like I should never post my location on social media. Because like that's very real, it's just my brain doesn't like work like that, like my brain's not evil.

• 1:23:35Speaker 02

  Have to.

• 1:23:36Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:36Speaker 02

  Shouldn't have to.

• 1:23:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:37Speaker 02

  And it's because of her.

• 1:23:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:38Speaker 02

  She psychologically manipulated you and abused you.

• 1:23:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:23:41Speaker 02

  And physically.

• 1:23:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:43Speaker 02

  For so long.

• 1:23:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:44Speaker 02

  Like and it's, it's hard to make your brain do that because you're clearly not like that.

• 1:23:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:23:48Speaker 02

  So I just, it is, yeah, I, and I'm, that is a victory, like that's. You finally got validation and she can see that other people believe you and not her, she's liar.

• 1:24:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:24:00Speaker 02

  And yeah, I, I can imagine how that feels, it's just like, you know what? That's good, it's like you don't need to be in my life anymore, so she just, she's just totally cut off now.

• 1:24:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, she's, yeah, I have her completely cut off. People ask all the time on my social media, like, do you think she can see this? Like, absolutely she can, I.

• 1:24:17Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 1:24:18Speaker 03

  You can't, like, you can only block so many accounts, like when you have a following now, like I can't. Vet that, I don't, you can like, oh, block this person in any accounts that they may create, but you never know. So I'm sure that she has seen it, um, you know, obviously my family lives in a small town, like there's talk of. Of things of her not being happy, I had somebody comment on my video that was. In prison with her at the time and they reached out and they're like, no, I heard a completely different story. So I know that there are people out there who are still manipulated by her and you still fully. Believe whatever story she's telling about her being the victim and her being a savior, um. But I'm gonna keep sharing my voice because.

• 1:25:03Speaker 02

  As you should.

• 1:25:04Speaker 03

  She's not that and. I can't believe that people, like people let children be around, like her be around children.

• 1:25:12Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 1:25:13Speaker 03

  I think that that is the most like absolutely disgusting, having a child now, like when they placed my daughter on my chest. I felt like. I finally unders, I finally understood that I will never understand, like I. That protection that you have as a mom, that love that you have for your child, like I felt. Deep love for my sister and protection, I felt deep love and protection for the people around me, but like for your own child. It makes me even more removed from her and like any of those fears that I had, like, oh, I'm scared, I'm gonna be crazy like my mom, like I'm scared that. Like what if this is like passed down or anything?

• 1:25:56Speaker 03

  All those went away when I felt that feeling for my daughter because I knew I am so far from that person. And I will do anything in my being to protect my children and. From ever having to be exposed to anything I was and breaking that cycle because. I will never, I will never let anything like that happen to my children.

• 1:26:20Speaker 02

  Mm hmm, I'm so glad, that's, that's such a relief because yeah, I can't even, I can't even imagine how.

• 1:26:28Speaker 02

  You just have to think about it all the time and it's like, you know, we all don't want to become our moms or whatever.

• 1:26:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

• 1:26:34Speaker 02

  You know what I mean, but like. To the nth degree.

• 1:26:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:37Speaker 02

  With you and I mean, that's just so wonderful that you're able to experience that now and just know. That it's, it's interesting, at one point in your life, probably you a lot earlier than most people, but you just realize your parents are just people.

• 1:26:49Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:50Speaker 02

  And in this case, extremely flawed.

• 1:26:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Speaker 02

  And wrong and it, and it's, I imagine it's extremely hard to cope with. Like it's like, well, that shouldn't have happened, so, and, and I mean, it seems like you've. Come to terms with it as much as you can and you're doing your due diligence and going through everything and being a victim advocate, which is so wonderful. Because I feel like even if somebody hasn't experienced their parent trying to kill them. There are so many aspects of your story that so many people can relate to, even I can relate to little bits and pieces of it, so it's. Thank you so much for telling your story because it does make a difference.

• 1:27:25Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:27:26Speaker 02

  So it's, thank you so much for saying that, saying the whole story.

• 1:27:30Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, of course.

• 1:27:32Speaker 02

  Appreciate it and now, what are you, what are you working on now?

• 1:27:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, so I, since becoming a mom, like I said, like I feel like I have a whole new purpose to. Share my story and to be an advocate for those, like you said, so many people. Even if it hasn't been the exact same story, they find themselves in my story and I think that that's kind of just what. Surviving trauma or surviving life is all about like we all go through hard seasons and whatever somebody's trauma is it's their trauma. It's the hardest thing that they've lived through. And so that doesn't have to be a murder victim or like, you know, a victim of attempted murder or whatever it is, like if you've experienced, you know, a blended

• 1:28:17Speaker 03

  family or like, you know, divorce or, you know, anything like that, like you can find yourself in that. So that's why I started sharing. I just, I think stories heal. And that's what I want to continue to do on my page and to share also just the hope that you can create a life after trauma. You aren't defined by the worst thing that's ever happened to you. Like, we can break the cycle. I want to show that with my family and like things, finding joy outside of that. Cause when you're stuck in survival for so long, like, okay, yes, I survived this, but like, I also feel like I've still been surviving like my whole adulthood. So like, how do I find like joy again? Like, what do, what does that look

• 1:28:57Speaker 03

  like? So that's what I've been doing. I also started a company called Unbound Legacy. And it's just apparel that meets purpose. And so that's like one of my, one of my hats that I'm wearing is hard fought hallelujah. This is just like my very first small little launch. Um, but we're gonna launch a few um, drops here in the next couple of weeks. So be on the lookout for that. If you go follow Unbound Legacy Co. And yeah, just, just following along on my story and my journey. I have a documentary in process. I can't share much about that, but that's gonna be amazing. And um, I just, I hope that it inspires other people to find that courage to share their story as well.

• 1:29:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And just recognize these things too, because when you're in it, I feel like it's really hard to recognize it, especially when you're a kid. But even when you're a teenager or in your early twenties or in a toxic relationship or something like that, like what you're saying is just like, oh, I actually, actually, my partner did do that. Or my mom did, does do that. It's like, oh, that's not good. And I actually deserve different. And when people are inside of it, it's really hard to see. So I think it's extremely helpful, just in so many ways.

• 1:30:06Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. And I think there was a stigma for so long, even people like in my family of, you know, okay, that happened to you, but if you keep talking about it, you're playing the victim. It's like, no, you're a survivor. And so we can use our voice for a really good and powerful way. And just like you said, like, if we, if we don't talk about it and we just shove it under the rug and we pretend like we're not actually healing. And even my therapist said, like, you keep that in your body. Like, it stays trapped in there. And your nervous system does wild things when your body holds on to those things. And so, um, yeah, just, just talking about it, sharing, seeing your own patterns and like how trauma manifests itself, like even, yeah, finding partners

• 1:30:50Speaker 03

  or relationships after trauma, like you're gonna seek those things in other people if you don't identify it and then call it out and, and change that so that you don't repeat those patterns and that we can actually truly break those cycles. Cause that's, that's how revival starts. That's how we all heal. And we don't keep perpetuating that in the, in the future. So.

• 1:31:12Speaker 02

  Well, I'm so glad that you found somebody that is hopefully your safe space.

• 1:31:15Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  And you have a beautiful daughter.

• 1:31:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:31:17Speaker 02

  And a bonus, bonus son.

• 1:31:18Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:31:19Speaker 02

  Which is so wonderful. So thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate it. And be sure to please go follow her, go look at everything she's doing. I'll make sure to put everything down in the description and on screen and everything.

• 1:31:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:31:31Speaker 02

  But thank you so much.

• 1:31:31Speaker 03

  Yes, of course.

• 1:31:32Speaker 02

  Awesome. This is perfect. Thank you so much. Yeah, that was wonderful.

• 1:31:37Speaker 03

  Okay, hopefully I didn't ping pong too much.

• 1:31:38Speaker 02

  No, not at all. No.

• 1:31:40Speaker 05

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