Pod Insights Conspiracy Theories Travis Walton's Alien Abduction About this episode November 5th, 2025 is the 50th anniversary of the events that inspired the 1993 film, Fire in the Sky. Seven lumberjacks saw a UFO… and one was pulled inside. Some say the men invented the story to dodge a work deadline. But the lumberjacks claim their chief debunker… is a government disinformation agent. We mention Operation Mockingbird in today's episode. If you want the full story, check out Operation Mockingbird Pt. 1 and Operation Mockingbird Pt. 2!
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Transcript 0:00 Speaker 00 Travis Walton was abducted by aliens. Or so he and his six coworkers say. In the 50 years since, two dueling conspiracy theories emerged. One, the US government paid a journalist to discredit some of the most credible UFO witnesses ever. And two, seven lumberjacks faked an alien abduction to get out of a work deadline. Two different stories, rooted in two different sides of American UFO mythology.
0:38 Speaker 00 In the end, what you believe comes down to who you think you can trust.
0:46 Speaker 00 Welcome to Conspiracy Theories, a Spotify podcast. I'm Carter Roy. New episodes come out every Wednesday. Check out our episodes and more on our YouTube channel, @conspiracietheoriespodcast, and on Instagram, @theconspiracypod. And we would love to hear from you. So if you're listening on the Spotify app, swipe up and give us your thoughts. Stay with us. This episode of Conspiracy Theories is brought to you by Petivity. Every cat has a few unsolved mysteries. Why the 3 a.m. Zoomies? What's so fascinating about that one empty box? And at mealtime, are they actually eating differently, or does it just seem that way?
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3:03 Speaker 02 ...of energy came out of the bottom of this craft and hit me in the head and chest. They said it just looked like an explosion.
3:11 Speaker 00 Okay, that was Travis Walton describing his experience. And there are many theories about what happened to him. Struck by lightning, high on drugs, victim of a prank gone wrong, hypnotized. But today, we're going to focus on two conspiracy theories where someone allegedly covered up the truth for their own gain. The story starts in Arizona, but don't go imagining the Grand Canyon and orange deserts. Travis Walton lives in the White Mountains, just outside the Apache Sitgreaves National Forest. Travis brags that more lightning strikes hit this region than anywhere in the US, except the Everglades.
3:54 Speaker 00 It's full of steep hills, bubbling creeks, and miles and miles of ponderosa pines, which create plenty of work for lumberjacks, including our seven alien witnesses. This month, they have a job with the National Forest Service doing fuel reduction, a necessary part of fire prevention. On November 5th, 1975, the crew piles into a truck. They're contracted to clear out small trees and underbrush from an area called Turkey Springs. It's 48 miles of winding dirt road from their small town. Hence, carpooling. Mike Rogers drives the truck. He also runs the show.
4:39 Speaker 00 He's the one who secured the contract with the National Forest Service. He comes from a blogging family and has been in the business for a while now. Well, relatively. He's only 28. But Mike's the oldest of the loggers. The youngest is only 17. Travis is 22. Okay. Once Mike parks, the men get to work. It's hard labor. Travis burns so many calories logging, he has to pack his lunch in a suitcase. He can't fit enough food in a regular lunchbox. And no one can. They're all big guys with long 1970s hair peeking out from their hard hats. The crew's been on this job for months, so they've found ways to make it fun.
5:21 Speaker 00 They invent competitions, make wagers, even practice karate kicking tree branches. Travis is really into martial arts. But it's not all fun and chainsaws. That day, Travis and another logger get into a fight. The other guy made advances on Travis's girlfriend, and he isn't happy about it. The woman in question also happens to be Mike Rogers's sister. It's a small town. The men work late. They're running short on daylight. But they're also running short on days. They've only got five more to complete the job, so they go until after sunset.
6:04 Speaker 00 And just after 6:00 PM, they finally load back into the truck for their hour-plus ride home. Travis snags the passenger seat.
6:14 Speaker 00 Here's what all seven men claim happens next. Driving down the mountain, they see a weird, yellowish light glimmering through the forest, too bright to be headlights or flashlights. As they approach, metal flashes in the trees. The men urge Mike to pull over. There must be a car crash, a plane crash? No, a flying saucer! The lumberjacks gape at a huge, golden disk hovering 90 feet in midair. It's the shape of “two pie pans stacked with a glowing white dome on top.”
6:55 Speaker 00 Lines of silver seem to solder together the lit-up panels, but the entire surface is “unbelievably smooth.” Travis says art and movies never do it justice. To explain what Travis does next, we need to establish some things about him. Travis Walton is the kind of man who will climb a microwave antenna on a dare. He once entered a bull riding contest in a rodeo just for kicks, and when he came across a black bear in the woods, he ran toward the bear, not away. Now, these are all boasts Travis makes about himself, but he also says he's an intellectual, philosophical guy. He frequently sees coincidences and patterns in the world around him.
7:40 Speaker 00 He doesn't drink, and likes to mention that, and he's a fan of Isaac Asimov, specifically his nonfiction work, even though Asimov is better known as the father of sci-fi. Most importantly, Travis claims his deep curiosity can be a detriment. Here's what the lumberjacks say next, and it is a perfect example.
8:05 Speaker 00 Travis jumps out of the car and runs into a clearing right at the UFO. Everyone else freaks out yelling, "Get back in the car." Travis ignores them. He wants a closer look. The lumberjacks watch as Travis approaches the glowing craft. It emits high pitched beeps and the low rumble of machinery. But not from any machine Travis has encountered before. The ground under the disc is lit up like a spotlight. Travis steps into the glow. The aircraft wobbles above him and the noises crescendo. Travis realizes he should get back to the truck.
8:48 Speaker 00 He scrambles out of the spotlight, but only gets a few feet when the ship zaps him. Travis feels the crackling tingle of electrocution and passes out. Inside the truck, the other loggers panic. They see a blue-green beam of light. Fire or lightning envelop Travis's head and chest, knock him off his feet and throw him 10 feet away. He crashes to the ground like a rag doll. Mike revs up the truck. He zooms down the dirt road, gravel spraying. He steers erratically, worried the UFO will chase them. He only slows when he reaches a bump in the road.
9:33 Speaker 00 Slamming the brakes, Mike and the crew realize two things. One, it's not following them. And two, they have to go back for Travis. The men debate the best course of action. When Mike sees the flying saucer zoom through the sky, in a flash, it's gone. The men keep arguing, panicking really. They need guns, they need backup, they need to start a fire. It reaches a crescendo as Mike yells that he's driving back and anyone who doesn't want to come can wait here, alone in the woods. All the men return to the clearing. But the UFO is gone.
10:20 Speaker 00 So is Travis. They yell, scream, "Search!" No luck. Eventually, the men realize they need a proper search party. They head down the mountain and use a phone booth to contact the police and report Travis missing. When the deputy sheriff arrives, the men describe their UFO encounter. How Travis was zapped, he might be hurt, dead, maybe the UFO took him. Now, this makes Travis the first known missing person to be reported as a victim of an alien abduction. All prior alien abduction reports occurred
11:05 Speaker 00 months or years after the event, not in the middle of an active missing person case. Some people would write the story off, ask, "What really happened?" But the deputy sheriff? He's seen UFOs, too. And being that it's a small town, the sheriff's office is inclined to trust the loggers. Officers have known them and their families for years. So the police organize an immediate search, not just of the forest, but of all Travis's usual haunts. When that doesn't work, the lumberjacks contact Travis's mom and fill her in. She's angry they abandoned her son,
11:49 Speaker 00 but believes them enough to call Travis's brother and say, "It looks like a flying saucer got him." News travels fast. The logger's hometown of Snowflake, Arizona, has a population of just about 2,500, mostly descended from the two founding families. The Snows and the Flicks. Yes, really. The founders were Mormon, notable because unlike many religions, Mormons have extraterrestrial life in their doctrine. So the locals were primed for an alien sighting. But not everyone believes the lumberjacks. Some suspect the UFO is a cover-up,
12:33 Speaker 00 and Travis was the victim of a chainsaw murder, including one of Travis's brothers. During the next few days of searching, he tears through piles of cut wood looking for a hidden body.
12:49 Speaker 00 Under pressure, the six lumberjacks take a polygraph test to check if they lied about killing Travis. Everyone passes. We now know polygraphs are unreliable, but at the time, they're considered a key tool for law enforcement. Polygraphs actually become a huge point of conflict around this story. Who should take them? When? Where? Who administers? Who witnesses? But because they're not scientifically accurate, well, we'll skip those parts. All that matters is that most of the town now believes Travis wasn't murdered. And it's true, he wasn't. Travis eventually returns.
13:32 Speaker 00 And here's where he claims he was. After getting zapped in the woods, Travis passes out. He wakes up lying down in extreme pain. He feels claustrophobic, struggling to breathe. The air is dank and humid. Fluorescent lights hurt his eyes. His shirt is scrunched up to his armpits and a shiny gray device presses down on his bare chest. Three figures stand over him in orange gowns. He thinks, oh, he's in a hospital getting surgery, until he sees their faces.
14:16 Speaker 00 Their eyes are, quote, "the size of quarters." Their skin is like marshmallows. Their heads too big and completely bald. They have no eyelashes, no fingernails. Aliens. Freaking out, Travis whacks one away. Its soft body moves easily, giving Travis space to sit up. The device on his chest, it platters to the floor. He grabs the first object he sees, what appears to be a glass tube. He slams it against the table, trying to break it to make a sharp weapon. It doesn't break, so he waves it wildly, yelling.
15:00 Speaker 00 The aliens watch at a wary distance. Travis escapes the table and runs. He races down a hallway, frantic for escape. He opens a door and enters a room with one single chair. Travis approaches it, and as he walks, the walls and floor around him fade away, revealing a view of the galaxy. It's as if he's walking through outer space. Travis sits in the chair. The arms have a joystick and buttons. He fiddles with them, pressing buttons and moving the joystick like he's playing in an arcade game.
15:44 Speaker 00 Except, the stars and sky around him move. He is driving the spaceship. Well, he has no idea where he's going. What if he crashes it? So Travis releases the controls, jumps from the chair, and hears a noise. It's a human. Well, sort of. He's tall, blond, tan, muscular, wearing a tight, blue velvet jumpsuit. Very specific. Much more human than the creatures Travis encountered earlier. But something's off with his eyes.
16:24 Speaker 00 Travis later suspects it's a humanoid alien, or even an illusion sent by the aliens to calm him, and probably keep him from crashing their spaceship. Wordlessly, the humanoid guides Travis out of the room and out of the ship. They enter an apparent spaceship hangar. Two more humanoids appear. Travis asks questions. "Who are you? Where are we? What's going on?" But none of them speak. Slowly, they guide him to another table.
17:05 Speaker 00 Then they force him down, press a gas mask onto his face, and knock him out.
17:12 Speaker 00 Travis wakes up on the street in Heber, Arizona, roughly 80 miles away from where he saw the spaceship. He walks until he finds a phone booth and calls his sister's house. His brother-in-law answers. The operator listens in as Travis stumbles over his words, barely able to talk. He's so scared. His brother-in-law almost can't believe it. Travis has been missing for five days. Now, eventually Travis manages to share his story, the one that we just told,
17:51 Speaker 00 the one he and the other six lumberjacks stick to for 50 years. One of the lumberjack witnesses likens Travis's story to the mythical phoenix, a death and resurrection tale. His story follows Joseph Campbell's hero's journey story archetype. A man leaves home, enters another world, faces challenges, seemingly dies, but is resurrected and returns to share new knowledge with his home community. That's the same basic plot as Gilgamesh, Harry Potter, and James Cameron's Avatar, Star Wars. So it's no surprise Travis's experience resonates in pop culture.
18:36 Speaker 00 It becomes a book, a Hollywood movie. Many documentaries and articles are made. The other reason it explodes is that no one ever finds hard evidence against it. However, that doesn't stop one man from dedicating years to debunking it.
19:04 Speaker 02 They were humanoid looking. They were a little four feet tall or a little taller and two arms, two legs like that. They were hairless and they had small features except for these huge eyes. They just seemed to look right through me.
19:25 Speaker 00 So that was a clip of Travis Walton again. But according to Philip J. Klass, that whole clip was a lie.
19:34 Speaker 00 They call Philip the Sherlock Holmes of ufology. In his lifetime, he writes seven books debunking UFO sightings, and dozens of articles for publications like Aviation Week and Space Technology Magazine, and The Skeptical Inquirer. He makes a public bet with all UFO experiencers. Detailed in his book, UFOs Explained. If they can get their experience confirmed by the United Nations or the US Academy of Sciences, or get their alien to appear on national news, he'll pay them $10,000.
20:16 Speaker 00 I mean, if you can get an alien on national news, you should get more than that. This is all to say, he's on a personal mission to prove aliens and flying saucers aren't real. So, when Travis's case makes the news in November 1975, Philip sets out to debunk it. He starts by looking into why Travis might fake his own abduction, digging up what Travis calls "character attacks." Philip discovers that five years prior, Travis committed check fraud. He was only 17, so the crime was expunged from his record. Meanwhile, a family friend tells Philip that the Walton family lied to her at least twice.
21:01 Speaker 00 Once calling from her farm saying her cows were dying, and another time saying her water tank was flooding. Both times, the friend raced to her property freaking out, to find herself a victim of a practical joke. And this woman isn't an enemy of the Waltons. At the time of the abduction, she's letting Travis's mother live on her farm, rent-free.
21:26 Speaker 00 On top of that, the Waltons are known to be interested in aliens. While Travis is missing, his mom and brother confirm this. Both say they've seen UFOs themselves. Travis and his brother Dwayne allegedly had an agreement. If they ever encountered an alien, they'd try to get as close as possible. Exactly like Travis did. In a TV interview, Dwayne calls Travis's alien abduction "the quote 'chance of a lifetime.'" And apparently, once Travis is back, Dwayne is annoyed the aliens didn't talk. He wanted Travis to learn more from them.
22:09 Speaker 00 Outside the family, a witness recalls an argument between Travis and Mike Rogers over what makes UFOs fly. Shortly before the abduction, and back when Travis committed teenage check fraud, his co-conspirator was Mike's brother. This leads Philip to who he believes is the real mastermind. Mike Rogers. Travis doesn't have a motive to pull off a hoax of this scale. But Mike does. Remember, he's the one in charge of the logging job. And at the time of the abduction, he's in a pinch.
22:49 Speaker 00 He's got five days left to complete his National Forest Service contract, and there's no way his crew can finish on time. Even Travis admits the men were "extending our working hours to try to get it all done." According to Philip's research, a missed deadline means a pay cut. And they've already taken one extension on this job, so this would be a double penalty. And that's if the extension is even granted. The Forest Service has the option to deny a requested extension and hire another company to complete the job while retaining 10% of the money they'd agreed to pay the initial hires.
23:33 Speaker 00 Which would mean losing even more money. And at the time, Mike really needs the money. In an interview with Philip Klass, he admits that he wasn't making enough to survive. He was on food stamps. He also admits he wasn't likely to finish the job on time. But most American legal contracts have a force majeure clause, where terms can be voided by a so-called act of God outside the control of either party. Think hurricanes, think disasters, think alien abduction.
24:15 Speaker 00 While Travis is missing, Mike gives an interview saying he hopes the Forest Service will take Travis's disappearance into account and grant them a contract extension. And the day of the contract deadline is the exact day Travis reappears, November 10th, 1975. Now, according to Philip, it's the culmination of a plan that started three weeks before. Okay, let's walk through Philip's version of the story. It's October 20th, 1975. Mike Rogers knows he's bitten off more than he can chew. He's balancing multiple logging contracts,
24:58 Speaker 00 and there's no way he can finish the Turkey Springs job in time. Worse, he underbid, so it won't even pay well. That night, he turns on the TV and sees an NBC special about UFO abductions. Mike doesn't watch the whole special, but he sees enough to spark an idea. If an alien abduction prevents his crew from working, it won't be his fault they can't complete the contract. And because this job is so remote, he can reasonably fake a UFO encounter with no witnesses beyond his team. But he can't pull it off alone, so he finds a willing abductee,
25:43 Speaker 00 Travis Walton. Travis has reason to go along with Mike's plan. Mike's both his boss and his girlfriend's older brother.
25:54 Speaker 00 And based on our research, it's possible Mike and Travis staged that argument about what makes UFOs fly to plant the idea in the fellow lumberjack's heads. Then, on the 5th, they put the plan in motion. According to Philip's interview with one of the loggers, Stephen Pierce, a couple weird things happened that day, well before Travis disappears. Stephen says Mike disappears for two hours in the middle of the day. And remember, they're under deadline. They're gonna work late. Philip suggests Mike's off rigging up lights in the trees to stage a fake UFO. And allegedly, Travis claims he's feeling ill all
26:39 Speaker 00 day and doesn't work much, perhaps because he's nervous about the evening's plan. Then, Mike keeps the crew two hours late, and they typically don't work past sunset, but of course, they need darkness for the plan to work. When they get into the truck, Travis sits in the passenger seat, where he can easily exit the car. And Philip doesn't mention this, but, well, we will. Mike drives the truck. He speeds away before anyone else can get a closer look. He has time to convince the men they saw a UFO. He's the only one who sees it fly away. And, most importantly, he's the one who decides to leave Travis
27:24 Speaker 00 alone, or leave him a window to go into hiding.
27:31 Speaker 00 Philip alleges Travis spends the next five days with his mom in Heber, Arizona, right where the aliens dropped him off. Philip believes Travis's mom is in on it. And while law enforcement's search for Travis is exhaustive, the sheriff doesn't search her home. They rely on Travis's brother, Dwayne's, account that Travis isn't there. And Dwayne isn't 100% trustworthy. After Travis returns, Dwayne lies to law enforcement about where Travis is recuperating. And both Dwayne and Travis have admitted this on the record. So the question is, did he also lie about Travis's whereabouts in the five days prior?
28:16 Speaker 00 It's also possible Mike and Travis didn't have to jump through hoops to fool their coworkers. Maybe the group collectively agreed on a good story for a get out of work free card. And then the seven conspirators stuck to their lie for 50 years. Regardless of what, if any of this occurred, Mike does get a contract extension. But then the situation spirals out of control. It's one thing to hoax your employer. It's another to hoax the rest of the world. At some point, Mike realizes that if anyone finds out that they faked the abduction,
28:56 Speaker 00 the sheriff's office will press charges for wasting police resources in the missing person investigation. So if the truth gets out, they're criminals. Then the National Enquirer gets wind of the story and awards the seven lumberjacks there in 1975 prize for most significant UFO event that year. Half of the $5,000 prize goes to Travis and half to the other six witnesses. Next come the books, TV interviews and speaking engagements. Now, if you believe Philip J. Class's conspiracy theory, it's a classic tale of a hoax gone overboard.
29:40 Speaker 00 Here's a couple other examples, like the Cottingley fairies or Mary Tofts rabbit births. In both of those cases, the ruse gained the perpetrators fame, money and a break from their mundane lives. And then eventually, the overwhelmed perpetrators confess to their conspiracy. In the late 70s, Philip thinks he can get someone to confess to. Philip pinpoints the lumberjack most likely to crack, Stephen Pierce. Now remember, he's the one who noticed oddities during the day on November 5th. In the immediate aftermath, Stephen wants nothing to do with the story.
30:23 Speaker 00 He refuses to be photographed for the National Enquirer Prize. He moves to Texas and changes his name. And then in either 1976 or 1978, depending on who you ask, Philip tracks Stephen Pierce down. According to Stephen, Philip offers him $10,000 to recant. Philip claims someone else offered the money. But remember in his book, Philip publicly offered that exact amount for proof of extraterrestrial life. Kind of seems like his MO. Regardless, everyone agrees on what happens next. Stephen approaches Mike Rogers. Mike says,
31:08 Speaker 00 "Steve told me and Travis he had been offered $10,000 just to sign a denial. He said he was thinking about taking it. We asked him, 'Even though you know it happened, would you deny it just for the money?' He said maybe he would, he was thinking about it. So I told him, 'Then you'll spend the money alone and you'll be bruised.'" Okay, let's take a look at that language. Philip and Travis offer different interpretations of bruised. Is it a physical threat? Or a warning that he'd feel guilty if he denied the truth? Either way, Stephen doesn't take the deal.
31:53 Speaker 00 Publicly, he sticks to the story along with the other six lumberjacks. But Philip still pushes his theory, publishing detailed takedowns in multiple books, articles, and TV appearances. In reaction to these accusations, Travis and the crew develop their own conspiracy theory. Philip J. Klass is a government disinformation agent sent to cover up the truth.
32:32 Speaker 02 It's hurt me in my job, my career, to the point where what I've got out of it in terms of the film is, in no way makes up for what I've gone through.
32:41 Speaker 00 Okay, that was Travis Walton again, talking about the price he feels he's paid for his story. But that price that he's paid, he feels like comes from one main antagonist, one person. According to Travis, his biggest detractor, Philip J. Class, is actually a disinformation agent. Philip knows Travis is telling the truth, but a powerful organization paid him to discredit Travis and his fellow UFO witnesses. A reverse conspiracy theory. Travis claims it would be extremely disruptive to society if we were collectively forced to face the truth about aliens all at once. We'd have a worldwide existential crisis.
33:26 Speaker 00 Power structures would be questioned and perhaps crumble. I mean, we've seen so many movies about it. I don't think Travis is wrong that if aliens exist and we all found out overnight, something would change. So Travis says to maintain stability, he believes a secretive group, most likely the CIA or NSA, pays journalists like Philip to discredit alien encounters. And Travis isn't alone. In a 2015 documentary, two leading UFOlogists allege Philip did work for the government. Supposedly, he was mentored by Donald Menzel,
34:06 Speaker 00 an early agent of the NSA. Then, he was recruited for Operation Mockingbird. We've covered it before, but a quick refresher. In the 1960s and 70s, the CIA secretly put journalists on payroll as clandestine government spokesmen. Someone like Philip, an editor at a national magazine, based in Washington DC with the regular newspaper columns, has excellent avenues to disseminate ideas and sway public opinion on behalf of the US government. And again, Operation Mockingbird was real. Then, a county deputy even recalls that Philip Class, quote, "identified himself to me as a US government UFO investigator." The deputy accepted it.
34:52 Speaker 00 But Philip never held this title. Well, officially. Now supposedly, the gig was lucrative for Philip. And in addition to paying him, the CIA or NSA was prepared to finance the $10,000 bribe for Steven Pierce to recant. Travis suggests the cover-up may have even involved his book publisher. He claims one edition was missing pages about his experience, and another was missing pages where he refuted Philip's claims. Then, after his book sold out, he struggled to get another printing. Now, it could all be coincidence, but the theory does connect to one giant question mark.
35:37 Speaker 00 Philip's FBI file. Yes, the FBI kept tabs on him. Oh, there are layers upon layers in this story. Under a 2006 FOIA request, the FBI released his file. Full of redactions. I mean, it is chock full of redactions, as you can see if you're watching the video. Now, between 2006 and 2025, some of those redactions were removed disclosing Philip's friendship with a Soviet ambassador during the Cold War. Sketchy, but not all of the redactions were removed. As of 2025, some of the redactions are still in effect.
36:20 Speaker 00 Here's what the unredacted files tell us. First, Philip published articles containing state military secrets. Twice. The FBI investigated, but opted not to pursue any criminal charges because to do so, they'd have to declassify information they didn't want revealed. One of these articles in Aviation Week discusses techniques for jamming radio and radar communications. Now, in 1957, it's advanced military tech. Military tech? That could have been learned by studying flying saucers? Perhaps one recovered from Roswell a decade prior?
37:05 Speaker 00 But of course, Philip's article has no mention of aliens or flying saucers. Second... Philip pestered the FBI to discredit Dr. J. Allen Hynek, a UFO researcher. The FBI responded that Philip's claims were "totally without foundation." A year after this incident, Hynek examined Travis Walton's case and said Travis was "not hoaxing." The files also detail an incident where Philip mailed Bell Labs a 28-page letter. It includes references to JFK, Lee Harvey Oswald, the KGB, a psychic time bomb,
37:49 Speaker 00 Hoover's special task forces, and secret military weapons. Sounds like he might be a fan of this show. It appears the man who dedicated his life to debunking conspiracy theories may have believed a few of his own. Documenting this, one FBI agent notes Philip is "most likely not in possession of his full faculties." Okay, so Philip Glass and Travis Walton spend decades trying to discredit each other, and it appears they only directly interact once on a 1993 segment of Larry King Live. Travis claims that Philip Glass never made any effort to contact him directly.
38:34 Speaker 00 Even on Larry King, Philip appears remotely on the 1993 version of a Zoom call, so they aren't able to interact after the taping. Taping they spend slinging insults. Both accuse each other of cherry picking quotes, evading anything serious, and just being in it for the money. Now, here's a quick highlight reel of their disagreements. Philip says Travis was a longtime UFO enthusiast. Travis says he was not interested in UFOs until he saw one. Philip says the contract was unprofitable and undeliverable. Travis says it was actually their most profitable contract to date. They would have delivered, and the eventual payout didn't come until three months after his abduction,
39:17 Speaker 00 so alien abduction wasn't a solution for anyone's money woes. Travis claims they- There are other UFO witnesses beyond the Seven Lumberjacks. Philip couldn't find them. Philip insists Travis should have visible signs of injury from the zap. Travis says the aliens healed him. Philip says Mike benefited from the incident. Travis says it harmed Mike. His whole crew was traumatized. They temporarily lost their jobs. And overall, the UFO experience was a net negative. But at the end of the day, what really sets the two men apart are their diverging worldviews. Travis, while he believes mysteries are the work of benevolent forces and no one is malicious,
39:59 Speaker 00 reflecting back in 2021, he believes the zap was an accident, a spark of electricity he caused by getting too close to the ship. And while the aliens could have left him for dead, they chose to save his life and send him back to Earth to help prepare our society for eventual full contact. He doesn't even think the US government is wrong to keep Americans in the dark about aliens. He suggests they're not keeping secrets from us, but from our enemies. Other countries may react differently, which could upend society and hurt people.
40:41 Speaker 00 Both aliens and government agents have people's best interests at heart. On the other hand, there's Philip J. Class's view. "The world is full of liars, scammers, and easy marks." His mistrust of humanity is exemplified in what he once published as his last will and testament. It reads, "To ufologists who publicly criticize me, or who even think unkind thoughts about me in private, I do hereby leave and bequeath the UFO curse. No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today.
41:25 Speaker 00 You will never know any more about what UFOs really are or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the US government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own deathbed, you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse." Okay, imagine being the lawyer opening up that last will and testament. This story is crazy to me. It has everything. It's like the ultimate double conspiracy. Aliens described, humanoids, marshmallow men, disinformation, the FBI, the NSA, CIA.
42:09 Speaker 00 It's literally got everything, even Larry King and a curse.
42:14 Speaker 00 And 50 years after the incident, it seems unlikely anyone will change their story. Philip Class is long dead and Travis and his fellow lumberjacks are hitting their 70s. So as long as aliens don't publicly reveal themselves, a history filled with hoaxes and disinformation leaves us in a gray area. So we're left to decide our beliefs for ourselves. But it's not are aliens real, it's how do I see the world around me? UFO tales are modern American folklore, stories we tell to help understand the unexplainable,
42:58 Speaker 00 stories we tell to define ourselves. So which story do you prefer? That a few blue collar men used the UFO industrial complex to get out of work, get their 15 minutes of fame and collect a payday? Or that a man was accidentally hurt by aliens, came back reborn after five days and spent his life spreading his revelations? The hero's journey or the hoaxer's victory? That the government is full of secret keepers? Or full of people who are just as clueless as the rest of us? That there's a world full of mysteries waiting to be revealed? Or a world full of hoaxes waiting to be debunked?
43:42 Speaker 00 What do you want to believe?
43:50 Speaker 00 Thank you for listening to Conspiracy Theories. We're here with a new episode every Wednesday. Be sure to check us out on Instagram @TheConspiracyPod. If you're watching on Spotify, you can swipe up and please give us your thoughts. And for more information on Travis Walton, amongst the many sources we used, we found his book Fire in the Sky: The Walton Experience, and Philip J. Class's book UFOs: The Public Deceived, extremely helpful to our research. Until next time, remember, the truth isn't always the best story. And the official story isn't always the truth. This episode was written and researched by Maggie Admire,
44:33 Speaker 00 edited by Connor Sampson, fact-checked by Sophie Kemp, and engineered, video-edited, and sound-designed by Alex Button. I'm your host, Carter Roy.
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